GM, Ford, And Others Want to Make Working on Your Own Car Illegal

[9erempiree]

:facepalm

This is so sad and they are using the "you don't actually own the car, you are paying to borrow and use it" argument. This is bad considering that people like to add aftermarket products on their car. It voids warranty, but some people have the know-how in how to fix some warranty issues.


https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/gm-ford-others-want-working-own-car-illegal-160000229.html

[gts]

meh... no biggie in the end... it's only for modifying the ECU which is actually already illegal in some states due to smog laws and 95% of the public doesn't even know what the fu*k their ECU is, where it is or what it does :lol

this is just a cover their ass law since the government holds the manufacturers responsible for certain components like the ECU for the life of the car..

with this law when somebody does get in there a screw with stuff and it goes wrong they can say not our problem you fu*ked with something you weren't supposed to so you're paying for it not us

[Meticode]

If it's the ECU I wouldn't personally mess with that anyway. Anything in that realm should be handled by a professional anyway unless you are a professional or know one that can help you.

[9erempiree]

They are trying to **** with the tuners. Tuners can make a car faster than its successors and that will hurt sales on the new models.

[KevinNYC]

:facepalm

This is so sad and they are using the "you don't actually own the car, you are paying to borrow and use it" argument. This is bad considering that people like to add aftermarket products on their car. It voids warranty, but some people have the know-how in how to fix some warranty issues.


https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/gm-ford-others-want-working-own-car-illegal-160000229.html

Care to restate this without the hyperbole?

[Jailblazers7]

Tesla soaking up some more good PR on this one.

[KevinNYC]

They are trying to **** with the tuners. Tuners can make a car faster than its successors and that will hurt sales on the new models.
They could give a shit about the tuners. The tuners are what .25% of the automobile market?

They are worried about lawsuits.

And GM and others seems to be responding requesting an exemption to something that is already illegal. That is, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act makes it illegal for you to circumvent "technological protection measures “TPMs”) that control access to copyrighted works."

People have petitioned for an exemption. GM is opposed. So GM is not arguing for something new, they are arguing for the status quo. Or in other words the sky is still up there and it's no closer to the ground.

[gts]

They could give a shit about the tuners. The tuners are what .25% of the automobile market?

They are worried about lawsuits.

And GM and others seems to be responding requesting an exemption to something that is already illegal. That is, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act makes it illegal for you to circumvent "technological protection measures “TPMs”) that control access to copyrighted works."

People have petitioned for an exemption. GM is opposed. So GM is not arguing for something new, they are arguing for the status quo. Or in other words the sky is still up there and it's no closer to the ground.The actual tuners guys who know what they're doing?.... closer to .002% of the market on a good day

Lots of companies out there calling themselves "tuners" but most of them are just parts changers, they buy stuff put it on your car and charge you too much to do it...

[KevinNYC]

The actual tuners guys who know what they're doing?.... closer to .002% of the market on a good day
I meant their customers, the larger market of people who do this.

[9erempiree]

When I say tuners, I mean tuners and not some parts changer. I've seen guys that go through extensive training and tune ECU's. It is a long process of putting the car on a dyno and map out settings.

Like I said, they don't want tuners to up the performance of a car because it will hurt sales to their succeeding car.

For example a BMW 335 can be tuned to put out more performance than their 70k M3 model. Obviously, they won't to make tuning illegal.

[gts]

When I say tuners, I mean tuners and not some parts changer. I've seen guys that go through extensive training and tune ECU's. It is a long process of putting the car on a dyno and map out settings.

Like I said, they don't want tuners to up the performance of a car because it will hurt sales to their succeeding car.

For example a BMW 335 can be tuned to put out more performance than their 70k M3 model. Obviously, they won't to make tuning illegal.


:roll: :roll: :roll:

he's drinking the cool aid...

[9erempiree]

It's a known fact and tuners have already done this and I don't like kool aid.

Anyways, no surprise that that the current gen M3/4 went to force induction just like the 335i.

[oarabbus]

When I say tuners, I mean tuners and not some parts changer. I've seen guys that go through extensive training and tune ECU's. It is a long process of putting the car on a dyno and map out settings.

Like I said, they don't want tuners to up the performance of a car because it will hurt sales to their succeeding car.

For example a BMW 335 can be tuned to put out more performance than their 70k M3 model. Obviously, they won't to make tuning illegal.


even if that were true, which I'm not sure it is, you could just as easily tweak the M3 to outperform a modded 335 :confusedshrug:

[gts]

Don't get me wrong, i have no problem whatsoever with modifying a street car.. my M5 was wound up tighter than a drum but my point is that most the guys doing it have no business doing it...

like I said there's guys out there that know what they're doing but that is a very very short list...

[NumberSix]

A lot of cars these days have engines that are significantly dialed back. There are plenty of German cars with around 500hp that can go up to 700. Sometimes they are dialed back simply because they want to put the same engine in a more expensive model, but a lot of the time, it's because the parts around it can't handle that much output.

[KevinNYC]

Like I said, they don't want tuners to up the performance of a car because it will hurt sales to their succeeding car.

Yes, but you have no evidence for this.

[SunsN07BookIt]

Even it were made illegal it probably won't be enforced. I can buy parts online to do a DPF and EGR delete on my diesel pickup. These things are put in the truck to help with the environment but they make the truck run like crap and even hurt gas mileage. To date I don't believe anyone has ever been convicted of modifying their truck. If you see a guy with a newer truck throwing out lots of black smoke, it's likely he has done a DPF delete.

[gts]

even if that were true, which I'm not sure it is, you could just as easily tweak the M3 to outperform a modded 335 :confusedshrug:

exactly.... It's great if guys want to do it but it's never going to be an MCar and it's never going to be faster than an MCar unless you dump so much money into it gets to the point why not just buy a used MCar to start with?


Sticking with the BMW storyline

Flashing the ECU is good for some HP and changing the torque curve but to find enough horsepower to be in the same realm as a MCar you're past tuning, you're into full scale mods from one end of the car to the other and you end up with a car that's drivetrain was never meant for that horsepower and your suspension and braking systems are under developed so you're still not actually faster than an MCar when you hit the track you just have comparable horsepower...

Like I said its fine if folks want to do this to their car, hell i encourage it but so many people read an article or hear about it on some message board and they have no idea what they're getting into or fall prey to shops pushing that magic HP cool aid

[9erempiree]

You guys know a stock 335i is turbo charged, with their n54 engine right? It cost as much as 2k to get it faster than a M3, which costs 20k more.

It has already been done, it is not speculation. BMW knew of this and saw the sales of the M3 decline. The succeeding model, current M3/4 model, is now outfitted with a 6 cylinder turbo charge engine.

Perhaps you guys have no idea how force induction cars work and how to tune them. They are very easy and cheap but I am still a naturally aspirated guy.

[NumberSix]

exactly.... It's great if guys want to do it but it's never going to be an MCar and it's never going to be faster than an MCar unless you dump so much money into it gets to the point why not just buy a used MCar to start with?


Sticking with the BMW storyline

Flashing the ECU is good for some HP and changing the torque curve but to find enough horsepower to be in the same realm as a MCar you're past tuning, you're into full scale mods from one end of the car to the other and you end up with a car that's drivetrain was never meant for that horsepower and your suspension and braking systems are under developed so you're still not actually faster than an MCar when you hit the track you just have comparable horsepower...

Like I said its fine if folks want to do this to their car, hell i encourage it but so many people read an article or hear about it on some message board and they have no idea what they're getting into or fall prey to shops pushing that magic HP cool aid
This.

For the money it costs to get your car modded, you could have just bought an M or an AMG in the first place. I'd personally rather trust M division or AMG's work than aftermarket shops.

You even see guys who will get something like an RS7 modded. For all the money, you could have just bought a turbo s. Yeah, the RS7 will probably have more straight line speed, by you wouldn't even think of putting it on a track with a turbo s.

[NumberSix]

You guys know a stock 335i is turbo charged, with their n54 engine right? It cost as much as 2k to get it faster than a M3, which costs 20k more.

It has already been done, it is not speculation. BMW knew of this and saw the sales of the M3 decline. The succeeding model, current M3/4 model, is now outfitted with a 6 cylinder turbo charge engine.

Perhaps you guys have no idea how force induction cars work and how to tune them. They are very easy and cheap but I am still a naturally aspirated guy.
ALL current BMWs are turbo.

[9erempiree]

http://www.procedetuning.com/BMW/n54/n54.html

[9erempiree]

ALL current BMWs are turbo.

Yes. Even the M3. Reasons being, cheap and efficient performance gains.

My whole point of why companies want to make it illegal to mess with a car's computer dates back to the last production of the 3 series. A normal 335i was the very first BMW to re-introduce force induction (turbo) and that particular M3 at the time, was normally aspirated.

Tuners would tune these turbo charged 335i to outperform a M3. What did BMW do? Outfitted the new M3, currently, with a turbo. The M3 sales were down because of tuners.

The same can be said about the Corvette, their past LS motors were easy to tune. That engine is known for tons of horsepower for cheap.

[NumberSix]

Yes. Even the M3. Reasons being, cheap and efficient performance gains.

My whole point of why companies want to make it illegal to mess with a car's computer dates back to the last production of the 3 series. A normal 335i was the very first BMW to re-introduce force induction (turbo) and that particular M3 at the time, was normally aspirated.

Tuners would tune these turbo charged 335i to outperform a M3. What did BMW do? Outfitted the new M3, currently, with a turbo. The M3 sales were down because of tuners.

The same can be said about the Corvette, their past LS motors were easy to tune. That engine is known for tons of horsepower for cheap.
Depends what you mean by "outperform". If you just mean, numbers on a sheet, then ok.

I have a hard time though believing that ANYONE is going to buy a 435i and then spend money on tuning the engine, the steering, new transmission, a new suspension and replacing some panels with carbon fibre just to get it on par with a stock M4.

[9erempiree]

Depends what you mean by "outperform". If you just mean, numbers on a sheet, then ok.

I have a hard time though believing that ANYONE is going to buy a 435i and then spend money on tuning the engine, the steering, new transmission, a new suspension and replacing some panels with carbon fibre just to get it on par with a stock M4.

It has happened with the last introduction of the 3-series.

As far as them doing it today? Don't know...because the M3/4 is already outfitted with a turbo.

But...I do see why they want to make it illegal, a BMW charges 20k more for a M3 than a 3-series, and like I mentioned before it is very cheap to tune turbo cars. It can decline the sales of the M-cars.

Or some can say it wouldn't affect sales because M-cars are status symbols now. In no way do they offer the same performance for the money like they did in the past.

At the prices they are charging, they have literally made us shop for Porsches.

Sorry for digressing.

[NumberSix]

It has happened with the last introduction of the 3-series.

As far as them doing it today? Don't know...because the M3/4 is already outfitted with a turbo.

But...I do see why they want to make it illegal, a BMW charges 20k more for a M3 than a 3-series, and like I mentioned before it is very cheap to tune turbo cars. It can decline the sales of the M-cars.

Or some can say it wouldn't affect sales because M-cars are status symbols now. In no way do they offer the same performance for the money like they did in the past.

At the prices they are charging, they have literally made us shop for Porsches.

Sorry for digressing.
Even porsche is ditching natural engines in 2016.

[gts]

This.

For the money it costs to get your car modded, you could have just bought an M or an AMG in the first place. I'd personally rather trust M division or AMG's work than aftermarket shops.

You even see guys who will get something like an RS7 modded. For all the money, you could have just bought a turbo s. Yeah, the RS7 will probably have more straight line speed, by you wouldn't even think of putting it on a track with a turbo s.

Yep.. M Cars, AMGs and the Audi S series cars are complete packages not just more horsepower, but bigger brakes, better suspension and a more robust driveline to handle the added stress created by the extra horsepower... So many folks fall into the I'll have the same HP as the high performance model for half the cost...

yeah and you still have half the car because those tuned cars from the factory are more than just cars with some extra horsepower but now your warranty is only good for scrap paper and your resale value just took a bigger hit than it was already going to take

That's why when I do a project for myself I go find something that's a few years older.. something that's already out of warranty something that needs to be gone through anyways and most importantly it's value has already taken the big hit

[KevinNYC]

Even it were made illegal it probably won't be enforced.

Again. GM is not asking to change anything. They do not want changes made.

So messing with the ECU is currently illegal under the DMCA, but proabably never enforced.

[Godzuki]

American cars suck anyways, other than their work vans/trucks. foreign cars are built so much more practical and last longer.

i doubt they'll make it illegal, probably just void your warranty.

auto makers already game the OBDI codes for newer cars. to get the scanners/codes for some of them costs thousands of dollars, its absurd. so the dealer can charge like $120~ just to hook up a computer nobody else has that can read the diagnostics.

[El Kabong]

American cars suck anyways, other than their work vans/trucks. foreign cars are built so much more practical and last longer.

i doubt they'll make it illegal, probably just void your warranty.

auto makers already game the OBDI codes for newer cars. to get the scanners/codes for some of them costs thousands of dollars, its absurd. so the dealer can charge like $120~ just to hook up a computer nobody else has that can read the diagnostics.
Yep. They've tried to do stuff like make them illegal for mechanics to buy over here in Australia I believe just so you're forced to always take it back to the dealership for servicing/repairs, rather than your local mechanic.

[BigNBAfan]

American cars suck anyways, other than their work vans/trucks. foreign cars are built so much more practical and last longer.

i doubt they'll make it illegal, probably just void your warranty.

auto makers already game the OBDI codes for newer cars. to get the scanners/codes for some of them costs thousands of dollars, its absurd. so the dealer can charge like $120~ just to hook up a computer nobody else has that can read the diagnostics.

This just isn't true anymore. the last generation of american vehicles has shown that they're willing to change their mentality. We're seeing small displacement turbo charged i4's in cars and trucks.

The reason why American vehicles have had bad reputation is because they served what the Americans wanted. Affordability and high performance. Even today it's the same but they're no longer affordable as money is going towards R&D of new more efficient yet more powerful engines.

For example, look at the new F150, brand new body with aluminum body panels and a 2.7L turbo i4. where else are you going to see a i4 capable of 325hp 375tq. It's simply amazing that this 1ton can get nearly 30mpgs in its first generation.

That said, most of the vehicles around here are Mercedes whether utility or personal. They're reliable and comfortable but high cost. If you can afford to have a car, it's a mercedes or porsche here.

[Raymone]

There really needs to be a Richard Stallman for automotives.

[Godzuki]

This just isn't true anymore. the last generation of american vehicles has shown that they're willing to change their mentality. We're seeing small displacement turbo charged i4's in cars and trucks.

The reason why American vehicles have had bad reputation is because they served what the Americans wanted. Affordability and high performance. Even today it's the same but they're no longer affordable as money is going towards R&D of new more efficient yet more powerful engines.

For example, look at the new F150, brand new body with aluminum body panels and a 2.7L turbo i4. where else are you going to see a i4 capable of 325hp 375tq. It's simply amazing that this 1ton can get nearly 30mpgs in its first generation.

That said, most of the vehicles around here are Mercedes whether utility or personal. They're reliable and comfortable but high cost. If you can afford to have a car, it's a mercedes or porsche here.


i'm talking longevity, and bang for the buck. not raw hp, luxuries, etc. Talkings about reaching 300k miles and still running good, and some even reaching 400k. you'll see Civics, Accords, Camry's, Corolla's do that somewhat regularly. good luck if a chevrolet makes it there. its funny to me how malibu's win some award but they are pretty crappy cars and imo nowhere near as well built as Honda's or Toyota's.

Ford passenger cars are crappy too. Mustangs are garbage toy rain/snow death traps. Ford even has this lawsuit thing on A/M vendors where Ford generic parts have to be sold at some price point not far off from dealer costs, or they get sued. Meanwhile you can get generic Honda/Toyota parts everywhere at ridiculously cheap prices. Even dealer costs on their parts are some of the lowest for dealer car parts.

then there's American retard layout. Fukking star and alloy screws are the dumbest invention ever :facepalm Audi's use star screws too, dumbass's :facepalm American cars like GM love to use shit like 8m bolts :facepalm you can take apart 3/4's of a Toyota or Honda with 10m and a phillips :applause:

i probably should say azn cars are more practical and best bang for the buck cars with the highest demand for resellers. Since French, german, etc. cars cost way too much to maintain, especially when things start going bad. they are so behind toyota and honda IMO in terms of practical efficiency. and IMO BMW's are some of the most overrated cars ever~ sooo many of them breakdown and not worth fixing sitting at junkyards for scrap.

[Bandito]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

he's drinking the cool aid...

He's right though.

[Bandito]

i'm talking longevity, and bang for the buck. not raw hp, luxuries, etc. Talkings about reaching 300k miles and still running good, and some even reaching 400k. you'll see Civics, Accords, Camry's, Corolla's do that somewhat regularly. good luck if a chevrolet makes it there. its funny to me how malibu's win some award but they are pretty crappy cars and imo nowhere near as well built as Honda's or Toyota's.

Ford passenger cars are crappy too. Mustangs are garbage toy rain/snow death traps. Ford even has this lawsuit thing on A/M vendors where Ford generic parts have to be sold at some price point not far off from dealer costs, or they get sued. Meanwhile you can get generic Honda/Toyota parts everywhere at ridiculously cheap prices. Even dealer costs on their parts are some of the lowest for dealer car parts.

then there's American retard layout. Fukking star and alloy screws are the dumbest invention ever :facepalm Audi's use star screws too, dumbass's :facepalm American cars like GM love to use shit like 8m bolts :facepalm you can take apart 3/4's of a Toyota or Honda with 10m and a phillips :applause:

i probably should say azn cars are more practical and best bang for the buck cars with the highest demand for resellers. Since French, german, etc. cars cost way too much to maintain, especially when things start going bad. they are so behind toyota and honda IMO in terms of practical efficiency. and IMO BMW's are some of the most overrated cars ever~ sooo many of them breakdown and not worth fixing sitting at junkyards for scrap.
This post is so full of truth.