When was the last time CP3 didn't choke in the post-season?

[PsychoBe]

serious question. dude missed a potential game winner last night, and we all know about his numerous failures. lost with hca to both the grizzlies and the spurs (lost with the hornets in game 7 being blown out by 40+ points iirc), got swept by the spurs in the first round one year, choked a game away in okc by fouling westbrook of all people on a 3 point attempt (goat decision making :oldlol: )

if he loses this series while having hca will he finally be out of excuses?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He's already out of excuses. Anything but a W in this series will be disappointing.

[Haymaker]

Paul seems like the kind of guy that don't mind losing as long as he got money. There's no fire in him.

[sp6r=underrated]

Do posters in this thread actually watch basketball games? He is killing the Spurs in this series. He was by a large margin the best player on the court last night and has made SAS point guards look incompetent at times.

Basketball isn't tennis. Sometimes you can play great and your team still loses.

[Kblaze8855]

You would figure that by now people would stop with the "If he doesnt ____ right now then___" talk about people with years to go in their primes. Lebron, KG, Kobe, Dirk....people on ISH were on some "If he doesnt ___ this year..." shit for years. Then they do whatever it was....and the people move the goalposts claiming that they didnt ____ enough times.

Chris Paul could lose in the playoffs several more times and have time to...do whatever it is people think he cant. At some point it falls right and the haters hate anyway. But the internet doesnt learn.



Paul seems like the kind of guy that don't mind losing as long as he got money. There's no fire in him.


Some of this shit is just a joke.......

Thats a never watched him play or flat out lying for troll purposes thing there.

[dubeta]

Probably the last time Kobe played in the post-season.

[Smoke117]

A kobe stan talking shit about a player he would have his mouth on if he ended up on the Lakers. Pat yourself on the back, bro.

[Haymaker]

Some of this shit is just a joke.......


I'm open to discussion, not to dissing. Show me your reasons to think otherwise.

[Kblaze8855]

That isnt an issue to discuss. You might as well have said Allen Iverson didnt play hard. Its just beyond all question. A disingenuous statement made to start an argument and nothing more. Nobody could follow the NBA...watch him play...and conclude that Chris Paul is lacking in will to win or competitiveness.

Its trolling or ignorance. No other option.

[LoneyROY7]

Series is tied 1-1 and he's choking already, huh? :oldlol:

[SugarHill]

Paul seems like the kind of guy that don't mind losing as long as he got money. There's no fire in him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy9R9GtsIjc

[Big Cheese]

I'm open to discussion, not to dissing. Show me your reasons to think otherwise.

If you dont see how hard he competes on both ends on the floor and say he has no fire in him, you are a flat out hater.

Even Kobe bryant has said that chris paul is one of the few players in the league that share the same competitive fire as him.


The game just gets easier with Chris Paul,” Bryant said before comparing himself to Paul. “He’s a dog. He’s going to fight to win, and not too many teams can deal with him.

“Chris Paul is really the only other guy in the league, other than Derrick Rose, who also has that competitive edge.”

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/16/kobe-says-guys-most-like-him-derrick-rose-chris-paul/

[sp6r=underrated]

I'm open to discussion, not to dissing. Show me your reasons to think otherwise.

Chris Paul has his flaws as all players do but it is obvious watching him play and his demeanor that he cares deeply about whether his team wins. He doesn't wear a stoic mask that hides his emotions.

[Xoush]

Do posters in this thread actually watch basketball games? He is killing the Spurs in this series. He was by a large margin the best player on the court last night and has made SAS point guards look incompetent at times.

Basketball isn't tennis. Sometimes you can play great and your team still loses.
Parker ain't healthy, so ofc he is killing them...

[PsychoBe]

You would figure that by now people would stop with the "If he doesnt ____ right now then___" talk about people with years to go in their primes. Lebron, KG, Kobe, Dirk....people on ISH were on some "If he doesnt ___ this year..." shit for years. Then they do whatever it was....and the people move the goalposts claiming that they didnt ____ enough times.

Chris Paul could lose in the playoffs several more times and have time to...do whatever it is people think he cant. At some point it falls right and the haters hate anyway. But the internet doesnt learn.





Some of this shit is just a joke.......

Thats a never watched him play or flat out lying for troll purposes thing there.

you need to stop this weird habit of yours where you go around and say "it doesn't matter if player a continues to fail...he's still top 10 and nothing else can change that."

i might be exaggerating a bit but still the premise is the same. not enough people on these forums hold cp3 accountable for anything no matter the circumstances.

he chokes away a lead to okc? "he was supposed to have lost that series."

he gets swept by the spurs and beaten by the lakers? "he was supposed to lose."

lose to the grizzlies in the first round? "blake and dj got dominated by zach and marc" even though mike conley virtually outplayed him too.

miss a potential game winner yesterday? "it wasn't a choke he just missed a game winner that's all" <---someone legit said this :roll: :roll: :roll:

and then you get ridiculous statements like "best pg since magic" with no wcf appearances or rings. :facepalm

someone please call it like it is. chris paul isn't the caliber of winner everyone tries to make him out to be. you can be as "competitive" as you want but what's the point if it never leads to anything tangible like a championship?

[The_Yearning]

If you dont see how hard he competes on both ends on the floor and say he has no fire in him, you are a flat out hater.

Even Kobe bryant has said that chris paul is one of the few players in the league that share the same competitive fire as him.



http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/16/kobe-says-guys-most-like-him-derrick-rose-chris-paul/

I think Kobe meant to say Westbrook instead of Rose there.

[greatest-ever]

Do posters in this thread actually watch basketball games? He is killing the Spurs in this series. He was by a large margin the best player on the court last night and has made SAS point guards look incompetent at times.

Basketball isn't tennis. Sometimes you can play great and your team still loses.
He was fantastic in game 1 but i thought last night his numbers overstated his performance. I didn't feel like he imposed his will on the game and he hardly did anything in the 4th and OT or if he did i must've not noticed it because he was doing it quietly.

[ralph_i_el]

you need to stop this weird habit of yours where you go around and say "it doesn't matter if player a continues to fail...he's still top 10 and nothing else can change that."

i might be exaggerating a bit but still the premise is the same. not enough people on these forums hold cp3 accountable for anything no matter the circumstances.

he chokes away a lead to okc? "he was supposed to have lost that series."

he gets swept by the spurs and beaten by the lakers? "he was supposed to lose."

lose to the grizzlies in the first round? "blake and dj got dominated by zach and marc" even though mike conley virtually outplayed him too.

miss a potential game winner yesterday? "it wasn't a choke he just missed a game winner that's all" <---someone legit said this :roll: :roll: :roll:

and then you get ridiculous statements like "best pg since magic" with no wcf appearances or rings. :facepalm

someone please call it like it is. chris paul isn't the caliber of winner everyone tries to make him out to be. you can be as "competitive" as you want but what's the point if it never leads to anything tangible like a championship?

Every decade has like 3-5 really great players who will never win a championship. It's not the be all end all. Just enjoy one of the greatest to ever do it.

[Soultrane]

I think Kobe meant to say Westbrook instead of Rose there.

I think not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgQAbbsdM9c

[Kblaze8855]

Usually when next to nobody does something...its for good reason. There are people with multiple rings who think Paul is better than they ever were(Isiah Thomas...though I disagree). Real basketball fans dont now and never did need to see something "tangible" like a ring to recognize greatness.

It just makes it easier for know nothing fans and casual observers to explain why they think ____ is great.

Its an easy segment on a sports talk show. Its a simple easily understood point to make in an argument you dont have time to really go deep into.

Most people making the argument places like this make fools of themselves in the process because its just used as paint to cover an argument with no substance.

Its fools gold. Except even fools know fools gold when they see it.

Its more like blind mans gold.

You are just told its gold and you accept it....because it takes too much work for a blind man to prove it isnt.

Almost everything in sports you can "prove" with a number or accolade paints an inaccurate picture. Most just dont care enough to investigate.

[LongLiveTheKing]

I was surprised to see Blake losing the game instead of CP3. He did miss the game-winner but I don't think he choked

[Kblaze8855]

Oh and you dudes have been yelling about the time Paul ____ and wondering why nobody cares for years. I'll let you know why nobody cares...

Because they watch basketball enough to have noticed that greatness and failure for a good period of time are not oil and water. They mix. Fairly easily. Doesnt even take much agitation.

You types almost always end up looking like idiots. Go read some of the old newsgroup 80s and 90s posts.

People were saying Isiah Thomas didnt have heart and would never win in like 1987. And that Jordan wouldnt win. And Hakeem. And Shaq. And KG...and Dirk...and Lebron...

Now they say if Durant/Paul/Harden dont _____ now then it proves ____ and ignoring that talk like that makes fools of virtually everyone.

Paul will be great for years to come.

Nothing he does or doesnt do next week will write the book on anything.

How many "This settles it... ____ will never win" topics have to blow up in a jackasses face for people to stop making them?

[mehyaM24]

winners don't make excuses.

saying winning doesn't matter, despite the guy in question being a HUGE reason why that is, is a losers mentality. anyone who adopts that kind of mentality has already waived the white flag.

[Mass Debator]

lol missing a game winner doesn't mean you choked. You make some you miss some...

Shying away from the moment is another thing...that my friend is not CP3. Plays hard on both ends no matter what the situation.

[J Shuttlesworth]

In what way has he choked this post season?

[greatest-ever]

Every decade has like 3-5 really great players who will never win a championship. It's not the be all end all. Just enjoy one of the greatest to ever do it.
Yeah except CP3 hasn't even come close to winning a championship and probably never will. All those guys like Barkley, Malone, Stockton and Baylor have all been to the finals. I have my doubts about Paul ever getting there.

[Kblaze8855]

lol missing a game winner doesn't mean you choked. You make some you miss some...

Shying away from the moment is another thing...that my friend is not CP3. Plays hard on both ends no matter what the situation.

Everyone but Bill Russell lost more than they won. Meaning even winners tend to lose. But modern fans only remember the greats winning and dont remember the idiots hating when they lost....because the idiot haters are nobodies in history...inaudible under the praise.

A great career...a career of someone who won at an extraordinary rate...is losing 12-15 times and winning twice...often getting lucky enough to have the right opponent injured or other lucky circumstance to get that one or two.

We just happen to be present to see the failures of our current greats. We were not there to make fools of ourselves claiming West would never win in the 60s. No ISH to clown Bird over being sick and getting swept in 83. We would have had 30 topics on Magic dribbling out the clock in the finals in 84. But the failures of past greats are washed away in a river of praise and accomplishment because their careers are seen complete....

Worst case...worst...WORST...

Chris Paul still has a career like Lenny Wilkins with more personal accolades or Tiny Archibald but healthier.

And some will laugh at that...because some dont know a ****ing thing about the history of the game.

There is no way...none...that the next 50 years isnt filled with people arguing if Paul is or is not the #3 point ever after Magic and Oscar.

It may be true..it may not(Id say no). But his ability is too obvious to be hidden under the BS.

The haters now will be of no more significance than Oscar Robertsons...who didnt even have the team success Paul has. Yet Russell... the greatest winner of all time...a guy who will tell you winning is the only thing that ever mattered...ranks Oscar as a player tied for GOAT.

Probably because serious basketball fans know losing doesnt make you individually worse than who won.

They make make "Well...___ has ___ rings" on tv for a simple fan friendly segment. Sit these dudes down...ask about basketball...that shit melts away quickly.

Too many of them lost to people worse than them or won while the other guy kicked their ass to not be painfully aware of it.

[outbreak]

Do posters in this thread actually watch basketball games? He is killing the Spurs in this series. He was by a large margin the best player on the court last night and has made SAS point guards look incompetent at times.

Basketball isn't tennis. Sometimes you can play great and your team still loses.

Parkers been injured and can barely move

[outbreak]

Everyone but Bill Russell lost more than they won. Meaning even winners tend to lose. But modern fans only remember the greats winning and dont remember the idiots hating when they lost....because the idiot haters are nobodies in history...inaudible under the praise.

A great career...a career of someone who won at an extraordinary rate...is losing 12-15 times and winning twice...often getting lucky enough to have the right opponent injured or other lucky circumstance to get that one or two.

We just happen to be present to see the failures of our current greats. We were not there to make fools of ourselves claiming West would never win in the 60s. No ISH to clown Bird over being sick and getting swept in 83. We would have had 30 topics on Magic dribbling out the clock in the finals in 84. But the failures of past greats are washed away in a river of praise and accomplishment because their careers are seen complete....

Worst case...worst...WORST...

Chris Paul still has a career like Lenny Wilkins with more personal accolades or Tiny Archibald but healthier.

And some will laugh at that...because some dont know a ****ing thing about the history of the game.

There is no way...none...that the next 50 years isnt filled with people arguing if Paul is or is not the #3 point ever after Magic and Oscar.

It may be true..it may not(Id say no). But his ability is too obvious to be hidden under the BS.

The haters now will be of no more significance than Oscar Robertsons...who didnt even have the team success Paul has. Yet Russell... the greatest winner of all time...a guy who will tell you winning is the only thing that ever mattered...ranks Oscar as a player tied for GOAT.

Probably because serious basketball fans know losing doesnt make you individually worse than who won.

They make make "Well...___ has ___ rings" on tv for a simple fan friendly segment. Sit these dudes down...ask about basketball...that shit melts away quickly.

Too many of them lost to people worse than them or won while the other guy kicked their ass to not be painfully aware of it.


...he's 29 and isn't even the best point guard in the league at the moment and you want to claim he is top 3 of all time? He's talented and it's stupid calling him a choker (on the teams he has lost with he has been the best player and the main reason they've made it as far as they have) but come on.

[Kblaze8855]

Im gonna ask you to read the next line. That said...the guy I usually have at #3 said this:


"There is a lot of similarities in their game, said Mavericks scout Paul Mokeski, who saw the Hornets play several times this season and was a Piston during Thomas' rookie year of 1981-82.

"The way they take it to the basket and finish as a small player. Both know the game ... they make good decisions. When you go to the basket, when you pull up, when to pass to teammates, where to pass to teammates.

"Even moreso in their attitude. It's kind of a touchy situation, coming in as a player and controlling a team and exuding leadership. That comes from what's inside. They were born with it.

Thomas discounts the comparisons of his game to Paul: "I was never that good."

So there is that on one hand....

And to be fair ive also heard him echo some of the "But where are the rings?" talk thrown around in here about Paul(google Isiah and Paul for some comments he made recently...I expect you to enjoy them). But not in what id call real sit down discussions.

Guys tend to say more of that in brief segments with 2 minutes till commercial.

The in depth talks like say...Bird and Magic in that special talking to Lebron and Melo? Or Walton when Bird turned 50 and he had an hour long talk? Hell even NBA open court.

Real discussions....I dont hear much of that.

[NuggetsFan]

it's stupid calling him a choker (on the teams he has lost with he has been the best player and the main reason they've made it as far as they have) but come on.

ISH is insane with expectations. Expecting superstars to win multiple rings with teams that aren't up to the task, despite the fact that most superstars who do win rings do so with great supporting casts. Ignore competition and context and simplify everything.

That being said Chris Paul has been abit of a choker. I challenge anybody to dispute he didn't choke against the Nuggets that one year. It was pretty awful watching him attempt to finish the last 2 series, especially coming off one of the best regular seasons All-Time for a PG.

[PsychoBe]

Usually when next to nobody does something...its for good reason. There are people with multiple rings who think Paul is better than they ever were(Isiah Thomas...though I disagree). Real basketball fans dont now and never did need to see something "tangible" like a ring to recognize greatness.

It just makes it easier for know nothing fans and casual observers to explain why they think ____ is great.

Its an easy segment on a sports talk show. Its a simple easily understood point to make in an argument you dont have time to really go deep into.

Most people making the argument places like this make fools of themselves in the process because its just used as paint to cover an argument with no substance.

Its fools gold. Except even fools know fools gold when they see it.

Its more like blind mans gold.

You are just told its gold and you accept it....because it takes too much work for a blind man to prove it isnt.

Almost everything in sports you can "prove" with a number or accolade paints an inaccurate picture. Most just dont care enough to investigate.

you're going on a horrific tangent like a prime lazerus.

i'm not saying cp3 isn't one of the greatest b-ball players of all time, he is.

but when people keep making excuses for him, or say that he's "the best pg since magic" (i'm sure you disagree with that), or some other bs then that's where you have to give all of his deluded fans and stans a reality check.

people i know in real life don't overrate him like people on this forum and it's sickening.

people say he's the best pg in the league as if it's gospel, and they always have to go to the 2008 season as evidence for some reason (even though kobe won the mvp that year so shouts out to godbe :applause: ) and some arbitrary stats like the first pg barely over 6'1 to lead the league in steals and his team to a first round exit and never reach the wcf :roll: :roll: :roll:

you're a smart dude kblaze, and deep down you know that cp3 shouldn't be as lauded as he is on these forums. he's barely a top 3 pg this season alone (curry, westbrook, and irving have all been better).

i dont have a problem with your views as a whole when it comes to cp3, but stop making excuses for him. "oh jordan got criticized so it's okay..." like wtf.

jordan got criticized...until he won.

bird got criticized....until he won.

isiah got criticized...until he won.

bran got criticized....until he won.

cp3 gets criticized and wow....he still hasn't won yet :roll: :roll: :roll:

see the difference?

i won't stop hating and bashing and criticizing him until he has won something.

[outbreak]

Im gonna ask you to read the next line. That said...the guy I usually have at #3 said this:



So there is that on one hand....

And to be fair ive also heard him echo some of the "But where are the rings?" talk thrown around in here about Paul(google Isiah and Paul for some comments he made recently...I expect you to enjoy them). But not in what id call real sit down discussions.

Guys tend to say more of that in brief segments with 2 minutes till commercial.

The in depth talks like say...Bird and Magic in that special talking to Lebron and Melo? Or Walton when Bird turned 50 and he had an hour long talk? Hell even NBA open court.

Real discussions....I dont hear much of that.

Your post should have said that people will talk about if he is a top 10 point guard of all time not a top 3.

[Legends66NBA7]

Your post should have said that people will talk about if he is a top 10 point guard of all time not a top 3.

He's already Top 10, at least I believe that's where most should have him by now.

Top 5 is the argument these days and that's where it will be down the road.

[Kblaze8855]

you're going on a horrific tangent like a prime lazerus.

i'm not saying cp3 isn't one of the greatest b-ball players of all time, he is.

but when people keep making excuses for him, or say that he's "the best pg since magic" (i'm sure you disagree with that), or some other bs then that's where you have to give all of his deluded fans and stans a reality check.

people i know in real life don't overrate him like people on this forum and it's sickening.

people say he's the best pg in the league as if it's gospel, and they always have to go to the 2008 season as evidence for some reason (even though kobe won the mvp that year so shouts out to godbe :applause: ) and some arbitrary stats like the first pg barely over 6'1 to lead the league in steals and his team to a first round exit and never reach the wcf :roll: :roll: :roll:

you're a smart dude kblaze, and deep down you know that cp3 shouldn't be as lauded as he is on these forums. he's barely a top 3 pg this season alone (curry, westbrook, and irving have all been better).

i dont have a problem with your views as a whole when it comes to cp3, but stop making excuses for him. "oh jordan got criticized so it's okay..." like wtf.

jordan got criticized...until he won.

bird got criticized....until he won.

isiah got criticized...until he won.

bran got criticized....until he won.

cp3 gets criticized and wow....he still hasn't won yet :roll: :roll: :roll:

see the difference?

i won't stop hating and bashing and criticizing him until he has won something.


If a statement is stupid....it just is. Even if it takes a while for people to see it. Haters of greatness almost always look like idiots in the end. Then the haters move to a new target to look like idiots about until forced to stop. Why hate anyone until you end up looking foolish?

Paul is hated on more than praised here. Really...look at the topics. How do you claim he gets too much love here when most of the topics about him are people like you hating? Its just like it used to be with Kobe. When most of the comments are hate...how is the person overrated?

I just dont see what we profit from being haters. There are people I dislike. But I dont think I could even go on the way people do now when I was a kid.

The people I dislike the most...I might have made 1 topic on in 15 years here.

Hating on greatness because someone thinks they are a tad too great...I just dont see what good comes of it.

The great vast majority of the time you just end up a hilarious example of jumping the gun.

That people hated on the likes of Jordan till he won shouldnt inspire you to hate others.

It should show you how ****ing absurd hating on obvious greatness is.

Truth be told...I can see me being the way people are now about Paul if there were an ISH in the early 90s....probably about Karl Malone.

But even though he in fact never won....id have been wrong in ways.

Everyone is the right set of circumstances away. You would be surprised how many people won rings because the best team lost a key player to injury....

Maybe im too into history. Everything reminds me of some other situation. Hondo being hurt in the playoffs the year they won 68 games....Knicks got by them. Changes legacies...shit like that. I cant get such things out of my head at times.

Im a junkie for trivial basketball matters....

Anyway....let me order this chinese food and watch the games.

Hard to appreciate greatness while arguing about it online instead of watching it on tv.

Do you. Hate on.

I'll be around to call you out when the time comes.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=236545


^

People been on this shit forever. Wont end now.




LOL at Kblaze8855.. this dude has no shame. Mad that his boy CPFLOP is a career loser (and people calling him out as such) so he goes on a 5 post rant about nothing. Get lost brah.

I enjoy people like you. Well no enjoy isnt the word....I accept that you play a role. For me..that role is simple. You are on a list of people who...if they agree with me...I know I need to rethink my position to see if im sure.

When you and those like you call me out...I know im on the right track.

We had an insane german guy I used for that purpose years ago. Loooooooved Dirk. Took it to a crazy level. Another one? Euroleague. If he agrees with me I know I might be wrong.

Everyone serves a purpose. You and your kind are an argument compass....almost always pointing to true wrong...making it easier to navigate to the truth.

You do your job and do it well. And I appreciate you for it even if I find you to be a bit of a joke.

[T_L_P]

Do posters in this thread actually watch basketball games? He is killing the Spurs in this series. He was by a large margin the best player on the court last night and has made SAS point guards look incompetent at times.

Basketball isn't tennis. Sometimes you can play great and your team still loses.

No, he really wasn't.

[Nick Young]

he is a career choke artist. When he is retired people will finally accept it. I have been saying it for years.

[iamgine]

There are legit criticism and there are dumb criticism.

Legit criticism tend to look at context and apply common sense before making a conclusion.

Dumb criticism tend to look at result and without much context and make a conclusion.

[sd3035]

Paul is in danger of passing Wilt for the GOAT choker

[notatop29pg]

Gee the word "choke" sure seems to have a lot of definitions around here.

[Eric Cartman]

Insanely difficult to win as a pg when you're the best player on that particular team, especially out West. That being said, he should have more success than he has so far, but that could be said for many all time great pg's (Nash, Payton, Stockton, Kidd).

[qrich]

If missing a well contested jumper that could have decided the game, Kobe must be the GOAT choker.


Paul is in danger of passing Wilt for the GOAT choker

22/14 with 4 steals to close out in Game 7, despite 16 FTs being gifted to a certain losing opponent :rockon:

[Magic 32]

His inability to make the right play in big moments is a huge problem.

Last night, he passed the ball when he should have shot it and shot the ball when he should have passed it.

[Jacks3]

If missing a well contested jumper that could have decided the game, Kobe must be the GOAT choker.





Same Kobe with 5 rings? Yeah, can't compare him to a loser like CP3.

Moron.

[DMAVS41]

It matters how players play.

It's not about whether or not Paul is great... It's about how great.

Watching Blaze go on and on about how it doesn't matter how players play is hilarious.

That said, Paul is playing great so far. However that missed game winner was huge. Definitely not choking, but a big miss. Clippers would have been over 90 percent to win the series and now they are underdogs.

It matters that Paul missed. That is just a fact.

The debate should be over how much something like that matters...not over whether or not it matters how players perform.

LOL... Still cracks me up people think it doesn't matter how these guys perform in the biggest games of their careers.

How they perform is a reflection of how good at basketball they are.

Think of it like this.

You have two versions of Paul and they are exactly the same and have performed exactly the same outside of that game winner shot last night.

One makes it and the other misses it. Anyone taking the identical player that misses that shot over the one that makes it?

Of course not...hence it matters how a player ****ing plays.

[Kblaze8855]

I feel like you cant have meant that the way I read it.

Two identical players...but one made a single shot the other missed?

And im to then think they are not identical?

Are we ignoring that the same person wont make the same shot every time? Steph made 77 straight 3s...he didnt make them forever. When he missed 78...that wasnt a worse Steph Curry. Its the same guy who made the 77...he just...missed one.

If they are identical they are identical. If Paul is literally duplicated in some sort of Star Trek style transporter accident...the two wont literally play the exact same every night. Circumstances will factor in....and they will accomplish different things. They wouldnt even shoot the same FT percentage.

One winning and one losing wont mean one is better. That seems fairly hard to dispute.

[notatop29pg]

Sometimes i think you guys are the same person.

[notatop29pg]

I feel like you cant have meant that the way I read it.

Two identical players...but one made a single shot the other missed?

And im to then think they are not identical?

Are we ignoring that the same person wont make the same shot every time? Steph made 77 straight 3s...he didnt make them forever. When he missed 78...that wasnt a worse Steph Curry. Its the same guy who made the 77...he just...missed one.

If they are identical they are identical. If Paul is literally duplicated in some sort of Star Trek style transporter accident...the two wont literally play the exact same every night. Circumstances will factor in....and they will accomplish different things. They wouldnt even shoot the same FT percentage.

One winning and one losing wont mean one is better. That seems fairly hard to dispute.

I think you're taking it too deep for most people around here... these kids only see dunks and 30 foot Jumpers and things that are "Alpha".

They create no lose situations for the players they like most, and no win situations for the ones they hate.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I feel like you cant have meant that the way I read it.

Two identical players...but one made a single shot the other missed?

And im to then think they are not identical?

Are we ignoring that the same person wont make the same shot every time? Steph made 77 straight 3s...he didnt make them forever. When he missed 78...that wasnt a worse Steph Curry. Its the same guy who made the 77...he just...missed one.

If they are identical they are identical. If Paul is literally duplicated in some sort of Star Trek style transporter accident...the two wont literally play the exact same every night. Circumstances will factor in....and they will accomplish different things. They wouldnt even shoot the same FT percentage.

One winning and one losing wont mean one is better. That seems fairly hard to dispute.

How you play in the postseason matters; better teams, better defenses, and generally, better players.

Its as simple as that.

[DMAVS41]

I feel like you cant have meant that the way I read it.

Two identical players...but one made a single shot the other missed?

And im to then think they are not identical?

Are we ignoring that the same person wont make the same shot every time? Steph made 77 straight 3s...he didnt make them forever. When he missed 78...that wasnt a worse Steph Curry. Its the same guy who made the 77...he just...missed one.

If they are identical they are identical. If Paul is literally duplicated in some sort of Star Trek style transporter accident...the two wont literally play the exact same every night. Circumstances will factor in....and they will accomplish different things. They wouldnt even shoot the same FT percentage.

One winning and one losing wont mean one is better. That seems fairly hard to dispute.

It's a thought exercise.

They are identical outside of that one play.

One makes it and the other doesn't.

Would you take the player that makes it or the player that misses it?

Obviously everyone takes the player that makes it.

It's a thought experiment to show you how stupid it is for you to say how players play doesn't matter in the playoffs.

That is not nor should it be the debate.

The debate should be how much it matters when a player does something.

I tried this with you before when I asked you if it mattered that Lebron had that legendary game 6 against the Celtics in 12. You said it didn't matter. You said it didn't matter if he went for 45 points and a dominating win or he shot 10% and lost.

We just aren't speaking the same language if how these guys perform in the biggest games of their careers don't matter.

I'll explain it again. Nobody is disputing that Chris Paul or players like him are great or not. It's about how great.

And how they play is a reflection of how good or bad at basketball they are.

I just don't think you honestly believe the shit you type. That it doesn't matter if Lebron plays great or horrible in one of the biggest games of his career.

WTF...

[DMAVS41]

How you play in the postseason matters; better teams, better defenses, and generally, better players.

Its as simple as that.

Bingo. It always matters how you play.

Some time periods matter more. Where you are in your career, what the situation is, what kind of team you have...etc.

But when the **** did these games start being played on paper?

It doesn't matter if a player plays great or terrible in the playoffs...WTF?

[Kblaze8855]

Feel free to show me exactly what I said. Forgive me for not taking your word in it considering how often you ask me how I think something nobody thinks or make up a quote and act like I believe it. You can't believe I believe the shit I type....that you typed for me......

In gonna need my words if I'm to answer for them. Not your interpretation.

Far as your question.....identical means identical. They are the same.

It doesn't matter which I get. If I get Jordan that made a single shot....or one that missed it.....I'm getting the same guy. Im getting Michael Jordan. He missed dozens of big shots. Everyone does. You get him after a make or I get him after a miss.....we get the same guy. What does identical mean if not the same?

If the same person made the same shot every time wouldn't players shoot 100% at the ft line in practice? Being identical doesn't mean every shot unfolds the same. They remain identical.

[DMAVS41]

Didn't think it was that hard to grasp, but I'll try again.

The players are not identical. They are identical outside of that shot. Obviously it's just a thought experiment to show you that how players perform matters.

Games aren't played on paper.

The more realistic example is looking at players and thinking they are pretty similar in skill sets and impact...but one has simply performed far better in the bigger games/moments of his career.

That is enough for me to call the player that performed better in bigger games/moments...the better player. I think that performance is a reflection of how good he is at basketball.

As I think the narrow view of "skill set only" loses a lot of what it is to be a great basketball player.

We aren't making snap judgments about one play or one game either. Again, it was just a thought experiment.

You could multiply that experiment out and say the two players are identical outside 20 big moments/plays over the course of their playoff career...with one making the big play and the other not.

Again...who is taking the player that is identical in all other circumstances that doesn't come through in those 20 moments over the guy that does?

Seems so obvious the answer I don't see how one can refute it. And it shows that what actually happens on the court matters.

[DMAVS41]

Feel free to show me exactly what I said. Forgive me for not taking your word in it considering how often you ask me how I think something nobody thinks or make up a quote and act like I believe it.

Far as your question.....identical means identical. They are the same.

It doesn't matter which I get. If I get Jordan that made a single shot....or one that missed it.....I'm getting the same guy. Im getting Michael Jordan. He missed dozens of big shots. Everyone does. You get him after a make or I get him after a miss.....we get the same guy. What does identical mean if not the same?

If the same person made the same shot every time wouldn't players shoot 100% at the ft line in practice? Being identical doesn't mean every shot unfolds the same. They remain identical.


Sigh...you aren't following.

I said identical outside of that one shot.

See how narrow your thinking is? You can't even open your mind up to a simple hypothetical.

You are getting the same player outside of that one play. So would you rather have the guy that makes all the same plays plus makes a shot to give you a 90% chance to win a playoff series...or the guy that misses it and your team is now an underdog?

Like...really...I have to ask?

You said the stuff about Lebron. You said one game doesn't mean much. Which I agree with by the way...

I'm not saying one shot or one game defines a player. I'm saying it all matters. Everything that happens matters.

You are saying none of it does essentially because you can always label something as one game or one shot...etc.

Again though, nobody is refuting a guy like Paul being great. But it's about how great. And how he performs in the big moments/games...etc. Really does reflect how great at playing the game of basketball he is.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Bingo. It always matters how you play.

Some time periods matter more. Where you are in your career, what the situation is, what kind of team you have...etc.

But when the **** did these games start being played on paper?

It doesn't matter if a player plays great or terrible in the playoffs...WTF?

CP misses a game winner in the playoffs? Who cares. He's done it in the regular season before too. We're not seeing anything we haven't already!!

Again, team success means absolutely nothing to Kblaze. To people that play fantasy basketball....that's fine. It's inconceivable to most fans and even players who PLAY the game at a professional level though.

[DMAVS41]

CP misses a game winner in the playoffs? Who cares. He's done it in the regular season before too. We're not seeing anything we haven't already!!

Again, team success means absolutely nothing to Kblaze. To people that play fantasy basketball....that's fine. It's inconceivable to most fans and even players who PLAY the game at a professional level though.

It's not even that for me.

I think how an individual player plays is a better way to judge players, but to just act like nothing these guys do matters is silly.

Kblaze is dodging now, like usual, but you know what...if Paul was shooting 10% so far in this series. He'd say it doesn't matter at all. And he's not just saying that...he really thinks it does not matter at all because he claims to know exactly how good Paul and every other player ever I guess is.

I think you take it all into account and it gives you the best picture of how good a player is.

It simply matters if Paul comes out in game 3 and is great or sucks.

Will it define his career? Of course not, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

Of course it matters...it's about to what degree.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It's not even that for me.

I think how an individual player plays is a better way to judge players, but to just act like nothing these guys do matters is silly.
I do too. But using Kblaze's line of thinking makes no sense to someone like you and I; fans that think playing good/bad in the postseason matters.

And why does it matter? Because it affects your teams success.

His whole ideology is ****ed up and confusing as far as I'm concerned. :oldlol:

[notatop29pg]

I do too. But using Kblaze's line of thinking makes no sense to someone like you and I; fans that think playing good/bad in the postseason matters.

And why does it matter? Because it affects your teams success.

His whole ideology is ****ed up and confusing as far as I'm concerned. :oldlol:

I think you guys just take turns taking his explanations to the absolute most literal degree you possibly can.

All he's saying is that we KNOW who CP3 is as a player now, he's been the same player for 10 seasons. And he does step it up in the playoffs, which is all you can ask. Can he step it up to average 50 and carry them to a ring on his own? No of course not, very few ever have.

A ring would be nice, but its only the icing on what has already been a great career. Just like Stockton, would a ring take him from 3/4/5th best ever to 1st? Nope. And it won't with CP3, even if the clippers win the next 4 straight.

[DMAVS41]

I do too. But under Kblaze's line of thinking makes no sense to someone like you and I who think playing in the postseason matters.

And playing good or bad in the postseason matters because it affects your team.

His whole ideology is ****ed up and confusing as far as I'm concerned. :oldlol:

Agreed.

I think I've somewhat figured him out.

He thinks once he's seen a player play for 2 to 3 years and watches roughly 50 of their games...he knows exactly how good they are.

And anything that they do the rest of their careers in terms of how they play or how they lead a team is simply a product of circumstances and has nothing to do with how good they are at basketball.

It's why he doesn't care how players play.

Not only is that beyond arrogant, but it ignores the obvious...

That we all have certain styles of play we are naturally drawn to...we all have a certain amount of bias and it's essentially impossible to get on the outside of that without looking at the evidence.

Since Blaze doesn't care about any stats or evidence or what happens after he's drawn his arbitrary line in the sand where he knows exactly how good a player is...he's forced to take these absurd stances where he claims that it doesn't matter what happens on the court.

Honestly that's about the most sense I can make of it.

So if Paul plays like shit the rest of this series...He'll say..."nothing to see here...one series...I already know exactly how good Paul is"

And if he plays great...He'll say...."nothing to see here...one series...I already know exactly how good Paul is"

And it hurts my brain...

[Kblaze8855]

So what you are telling me is that when a shot missed.....said player is now worse at basketball then he would be had it gone in? The sole difference in your hypothetical......is half a second of observation.....which you use to determine who you want.

This half second.....decides the matter of which player you feel is better at basketball?

They are identical....three tenths of a second of their lives aside? And this blink of an eye is what you use to determine who is better.....ignoring that they are to that point.....exactly the same?

This is what you are telling me?

I'd like there to be no misunderstanding.

If that is the case I'll just reiterate something I've expressed often.....

Our views are incompatible. They come from entirely different universes with different laws of physics. They cannot coexist....and forcing these square pegs into round holes is an exercise in futility. Not one I feel is with either of our time.

Goodnight. I'll visit you in your dimension when the technology is available.

[DMAVS41]

I think you guys just take turns taking his explanations to the absolute most literal degree you possibly can.

All he's saying is that we KNOW who CP3 is as a player now, he's been the same player for 10 seasons. And he does step it up in the playoffs, which is all you can ask. Can he step it up to average 50 and carry them to a ring on his own? No of course not, very few ever have.

A ring would be nice, but its only the icing on what has already been a great career. Just like Stockton, would a ring take him from 3/4/5th best ever to 1st? Nope. And it won't with CP3, even if the clippers win the next 4 straight.

But we've argued that and been over that so many times.

I agree we know what "kind" of player Paul is. He's great. A truly great player.

But it's not about whether or not he's great. It's about how great. And we are still taking in evidence on that.

I have agreed with him time and time again that in broad terms we know, but that doesn't mean that how a guy 10 years into his career plays in the biggest games of his season and career doesn't matter.

Again, it's about how much certain things matter...this should not be a ****ing debate about whether or not it matters how well CP3 plays in the playoffs this year on a legit contending team.

Jesus...

[notatop29pg]

But we've argued that and been over that so many times.

I agree we know what "kind" of player Paul is. He's great. A truly great player.

But it's not about whether or not he's great. It's about how great. And we are still taking in evidence on that.

I have agreed with him time and time again that in broad terms we know, but that doesn't mean that how a guy 10 years into his career plays in the biggest games of his season and career doesn't matter.

Again, it's about how much certain things matter...this should not be a ****ing debate about whether or not it matters how well CP3 plays in the playoffs this year on a legit contending team.

Jesus...

If he wins one ring how far up your list of top pgs will he be?

If he only makes it to finals?

If he makes it to finals but misses a game winner?

If he doesnt ever get to the WCF?


I'm honestly interested.

[DMAVS41]

So what you are telling me is that when a shot missed.....said player is now worse at basketball then he would be had it gone in? The sole difference in your hypothetical......is half a second of observation.....which you use to determine who you want.

This half second.....decides the matter of which player you feel is better at basketball?

They are identical....three tenths of a second of their lives aside? And this blink of an eye is what you use to determine who is better.....ignoring that they are to that point.....exactly the same?

This is what you are telling me?

I'd like there to be no misunderstanding.

I'd that is the case I'll just reiterate something I've expressed often.....

Our views are incompatible. They come from entirely different universes with different laws of physics. They cannot coexist....and forcing these square pegs into round holes is an exercise in futility. Not one I feel is with either of our time.

Goodnight. I'll visit you in your dimension when the technology is available.


It's a ****ing thought experiment. It's not supposed to be reality.

I could expand it and say they are identical outside 50 moments like that throughout their careers and one succeeds in all 50 and the other doesn't.

What do you say then?

[DMAVS41]

If he wins one ring how far up your list of top pgs will he be?

If he only makes it to finals?

If he makes it to finals but misses a game winner?

If he doesnt ever get to the WCF?


I'm honestly interested.

Depends on how he plays. I already have Paul pretty high.

[notatop29pg]

Depends on how he plays. I already have Paul pretty high.

Current level from the past 2 games, in all situations.

[DMAVS41]

Current level from the past 2 games, in all situations.

And he proves capable of leading this team all the way to the title? I'd move him up higher (not sure how much) because I'd then admit I would be wrong about how high I think his ceiling was/is as a player.

I don't think CP3 could do that. He does that and proves me wrong...I'll have to rethink how good CP3 actually is at playing basketball as my initial rating was wrong.

[notatop29pg]

And he proves capable of leading this team all the way to the title? I'd move him up higher (not sure how much) because I'd then admit I would be wrong about how high I think his ceiling was/is as a player.

I don't think CP3 could do that. He does that and proves me wrong...I'll have to rethink how good CP3 actually is at playing basketball as my initial rating was wrong.

Fair enough.

I don't think he'll ever get a ring, unless he teams up with his best mate Lebron at some point. But i've watched almost every game he's ever played (i'm 32) and i havent seen better in that time. If he wins a ring it won't change my opinion (i'll troll around here like you wouldnt believe though).

Some guys are great and just never take that final step, i don't think it should be held against them UNLESS he averages sub 15ppg or something while his team actual stands up for once. Then id be disappointed.

I think only Magic as the PG in his place on this team would have a chance to take them further.

[notatop29pg]

And even then only because he was 6'9

[DMAVS41]

Fair enough.

I don't think he'll ever get a ring, unless he teams up with his best mate Lebron at some point. But i've watched almost every game he's ever played (i'm 32) and i havent seen better in that time. If he wins a ring it won't change my opinion (i'll troll around here like you wouldnt believe though).

Some guys are great and just never take that final step, i don't think it should be held against them UNLESS he averages sub 15ppg or something while his team actual stands up for once. Then id be disappointed.

I think only Magic as the PG in his place on this team would have a chance to take them further.

It would only be "held against him" if you start getting into specific player comparisons in which it would matter how Paul played at certain points of his career.

But I'm not one of these Paul has to do X or he's a career loser.

He's already a hall of famer and one of the best pg's ever.

This debate, for me, isn't really about Paul...it's about this idea that how players play past a certain point early on in their career doesn't matter.

I mean, just so you know, Kblaze said he never even needs to see Love play a playoff game to know exactly how good he is. Perhaps he doesn't...perhaps he can see the future. I don't buy it though...I need to see how he reacts to pressure in the playoffs. How he reacts to teams locking in against him and his team...playing against elite competition for weeks and having enough left in the tank to perform late in the playoffs...etc.

Those things are part of being good at basketball to me.

[notatop29pg]

It would only be "held against him" if you start getting into specific player comparisons in which it would matter how Paul played at certain points of his career.

But I'm not one of these Paul has to do X or he's a career loser.

He's already a hall of famer and one of the best pg's ever.

This debate, for me, isn't really about Paul...it's about this idea that how players play past a certain point early on in their career doesn't matter.

I mean, just so you know, Kblaze said he never even needs to see Love play a playoff game to know exactly how good he is. Perhaps he doesn't...perhaps he can see the future. I don't buy it though...I need to see how he reacts to pressure in the playoffs. How he reacts to teams locking in against him and his team...playing against elite competition for weeks and having enough left in the tank to perform late in the playoffs...etc.

Those things are part of being good at basketball to me.

Yeah i can see where your at with that.

[gts]

Some of these guys are paid massive delusional amounts of money to be that guy that makes the big play in the big moment, there's only a handful in the league that are in that category.. you're either in it or you're not

you can argue all day that one or two bad plays doesn't define a career but when those missed shots, bad plays or failings take place over and over again on the biggest stage under the brightest lights you bet your ass it has a bearing on what type of player history will judge you as

why bother even watching the games if you think it doesn't.. watch the draft combine once a year and fill out your hall of fame card from that

All that being said I don't think of CP3 as a "choker' but he certainly hasn't made the best argument for his place at the table of all time greats either.. he still has time, it's not a wrong that can never be righted but he should probably find that little extra something soon

[DMAVS41]

Yeah i can see where your at with that.

And, in case you missed it...

Blaze also previously said that the only difference between Dirk and Channing Frye was jump shooting ability.

So I hope you understand why I question his ability to judge and analyze a player without seeing them play in certain situations.

Hard not to question a guys ability to judge skill set if he says Frye and Dirk are identical outside of jump shooting.

:facepalm

Can't even follow a simple thought experiment or hypothetical. Tells me he'll visit my dimension like I'm actually presenting a single play in reality.

Again Blaze, if you read this, it's a ****ing thought experiment. And one that actually makes sense if you could think outside of your narrow as **** thinking about skillset only and ignoring how that translates onto the court in certain situations when the games matter the most.

I'll visit your dimension when I become an arrogant crazy man that thinks he knows exactly how good every single player is after 3 years in the league.

[notatop29pg]

Some of these guys are paid massive delusional amounts of money to be that guy that makes the big play in the big moment, there's only a handful in the league that are in that category.. you're either in it or you're not

you can argue all day that one or two bad plays doesn't define a career but when those missed shots, bad plays or failings take place over and over again on the biggest stage under the brightest lights you bet your ass it has a bearing on what type of player history will judge you as

why bother even watching the games if you think it doesn't.. watch the draft combine once a year and fill out your hall of fame card from that

All that being said I don't think of CP3 as a "choker' but he certainly hasn't made the best argument for his place at the table of all time greats either.. he still has time, it's not a wrong that can never be righted but he should probably find that little extra something soon

Some guys are also born with insane physical gifts that allow them to do things other, more skilled players cannot.

Was Shaq a better basketball player than Stockton? Same skills, same brain, but both 7'1 and 300 pounds.... probably a different story.

People will say im making excuses for players, but its not CP3's fault he's not 6'5+ and athletic enough to get shots off against anyone, having been to so many of his games, i still get blown away by the fact that he can even get a shot off at all.

I think that kind of thing counts for something.

[DMAVS41]

Some guys are also born with insane physical gifts that allow them to do things other, more skilled players cannot.

Was Shaq a better basketball player than Stockton? Same skills, same brain, but both 7'1 and 300 pounds.... probably a different story.

People will say im making excuses for players, but its not CP3's fault he's not 6'5+ and athletic enough to get shots off against anyone, having been to so many of his games, i still get blown away by the fact that he can even get a shot off at all.

I think that kind of thing counts for something.

We aren't grading on a curve though.

You don't get extra points in the game for being small. If you did...then it would matter.

Yes, being bigger and athletic is an advantage. Just the nature of the game and life in general.

Was Shaq a better basketball player than Stocketon? Uhhhh...hell yes. It's not even remotely close. Shaq was a far better and more valuable and more impactful basketball player than Stockton.

What you are speaking to is your preference for watching guys without the freakish gifts play. While I can appreciate that you like that...it doesn't make a player better than he actually is.

Impact is impact. Doesn't matter if you are 7 feet or 5 feet. There is no curve here...nor should there be.

[Mr. Jabbar]

big shots define careers and history, big misses too, it's the way it is, that's the adrenaline of sports

than being said

for every shot miss there is shot MADE, (IF) yOU have a patient.

[Kblaze8855]

You must be the all time ISH leader in quote fabrication.

"Hey guys....guys...listen to this...Kblaze once said "*insert out of context intentionally reworded to sound odd partial statement*". Isnt he crazy? dont you now agree with me that im right about this unrelated issue? Do you think blaze was right about that other thing? No way you think that right. Blaze was wrong wasnt he?"

You must spend 40 minutes a week typing posts trying to convince someone im wrong about something unrelated by giving your modified version of what you pretend to think I meant about something months or years ago. Sending me private message requests to come argue about shit from 2 years ago that I barely cared about when I said it

A never ending crusade to attack my credibility to people who dont really care what you or I think to begin with in order to get a "Yea...I kinda agree! Thats crazy!" from someone because I wont come fight with you forever in 5 topics at once.

You must type the word "Blaze" more than any 5 people combined.

If people think im reasonable they arent gonna stop because you remove a paragraph of context from a 2 year old discussion to post a sentence they find odd. I quite literally post with ex girlfriends of mine who dont use my name as much as you do. Your hunger for affirmation from others during an argument is funny at times. Bothersome at others....but a little funny even then.

Anyway....my alarm goes off at 5:10 am...and here I sit. The playoffs destroy my sleep every ****ing year. At this point I might as well tough it out...

[gts]

Some guys are also born with insane physical gifts that allow them to do things other, more skilled players cannot.

Was Shaq a better basketball player than Stockton? Same skills, same brain, but both 7'1 and 300 pounds.... probably a different story.

People will say im making excuses for players, but its not CP3's fault he's not 6'5+ and athletic enough to get shots off against anyone, having been to so many of his games, i still get blown away by the fact that he can even get a shot off at all.

I think that kind of thing counts for something.

I don't think CP3s contract is based on his height... he took the big money so he should play big (which he does for the most part) Besides I think when you get into the realm of trying to decide if a player gets to be considered one of "those guys" it's more about heart, finding a way not to lose no matter what and not physical gifts... And this isn't about stats (for me) to me it's about doing whatever it takes to win....

Lebron gets blasted for his 4th quarter play, or Ray Allen saving his ass he still hit a couple big shots, made a couple big plays and won, Kobe 6-24 meh shooting but he became a rebound and assist machine and then hit the big shot in crunch time

Magic had off nights but he still found a way to leave an indelible mark on the game when the Lakers needed a big play and won.... all the guys we banter about as being all time greats have the one thing in common, they won

Stats and great numbers, high fly acts, rim shaking slam dunks are nothing when the game is played to be won and the team you've been charged with leading falls short

[BlakFrankWhite]

he works his ass off for 3.5 quarters....but when the going gets tough....he chokes


biggest coward in the league

[DMAVS41]

You must be the all time ISH leader in quote fabrication.

"Hey guys....guys...listen to this...Kblaze once said "*insert out of context intentionally reworded to sound odd partial statement*". Isnt he crazy? dont you now agree with me that im right about this unrelated issue? Do you think blaze was right about that other thing? No way you think that right. Blaze was wrong wasnt he?"

You must spend 40 minutes a week typing posts trying to convince someone im wrong about something unrelated by giving your modified version of what you pretend to think I meant about something months or years ago. Sending me private message requests to come argue about shit from 2 years ago that I barely cared about when I said it

A never ending crusade to attack my credibility to people who dont really care what you or I think to begin with in order to get a "Yea...I kinda agree! Thats crazy!" from someone because I wont come fight with you forever in 5 topics at once.

You must type the word "Blaze" more than any 5 people combined.

If people think im reasonable they arent gonna stop because you remove a paragraph of context from a 2 year old discussion to post a sentence they find odd. I quite literally post with ex girlfriends of mine who dont use my name as much as you do. Your hunger for affirmation from others during an argument is funny at times. Bothersome at others....but a little funny even then.

Anyway....my alarm goes off at 5:10 am...and here I sit. The playoffs destroy my sleep every ****ing year. At this point I might as well tough it out...


Dude.

You said Frye and Dirk were near identical outside of jump shooting. Not made up...it's a fact:

IF Frye could just look you in the eye and wet an 18 footer back to back to back with the D all over him...he would be Dirk.

LOL

But yea...I'm making shit up.

Just saw a quote from Lebron talking about his game 6 against Boston in 12. He said it was a career defining game. You gonna tell him it didn't matter he played a legendary game that night? That it wasn't a reflection of his greatness? Really?

Stepping up and playing great in career defining type games is a reflection of how good a player is at playing basketball. It goes beyond dribbling, passing, shooting...etc. A player is not solely their skill set in how you define skill set.

[Springsteen]

Dude.

IF Frye could just look you in the eye and wet an 18 footer back to back to back with the D all over him...

GAY

[24-Inch_Chrome]

When was the last time OP didn't post like a ******?

[MellowYellow]

The problem with cp3 is he's too passive, instead of taking a game over he goes invisible for key stretches even if he isnt the one making the mistakes he should be in the play.

[TheMarkMadsen]

GAY

:roll: :roll:

didn't realize how sus that sentence was

[DMAVS41]

:roll: :roll:

didn't realize how sus that sentence was

:roll:

[PsychoBe]

The problem with cp3 is he's too passive, instead of taking a game over he goes invisible for key stretches even if he isnt the one making the mistakes he should be in the play.

this. people call his passive hot-potato passing in the clutch the "correct basketball play" when they dont consider that the most talented player point guard on the court not taking the shot isn't the correct basketball play.

[iznogood]

I think only Magic as the PG in his place on this team would have a chance to take them further.
I love Magic, but do you really believe he takes this team any further? Paul is the best defender on that team. They have nobody that can guard lockdown the PG spot if he's gone. Also I believe they loose the spacing they have, since Magic was not the shooter off the dribble Paul is. How is Magic going to post up or drive inside the paint with the lane already clogged? I think this team would still be very flawed.

[notatop29pg]

I love Magic, but do you really believe he takes this team any further? Paul is the best defender on that team. They have nobody that can guard lockdown the PG spot if he's gone. Also I believe they loose the spacing they have, since Magic was not the shooter off the dribble Paul is. How is Magic going to post up or drive inside the paint with the lane already clogged? I think this team would still be very flawed.

Not really. The team makeup is awful.

But if I said there wasn't another PG that could take this team further than CP3 has id never hear the end of it. So I just dropped Magic in there as he is widely considered the best pg ever.

[ninephive]

you need to stop this weird habit of yours where you go around and say "it doesn't matter if player a continues to fail...he's still top 10 and nothing else can change that."

i might be exaggerating a bit but still the premise is the same. not enough people on these forums hold cp3 accountable for anything no matter the circumstances.

he chokes away a lead to okc? "he was supposed to have lost that series."

he gets swept by the spurs and beaten by the lakers? "he was supposed to lose."

lose to the grizzlies in the first round? "blake and dj got dominated by zach and marc" even though mike conley virtually outplayed him too.

miss a potential game winner yesterday? "it wasn't a choke he just missed a game winner that's all" <---someone legit said this :roll: :roll: :roll:

and then you get ridiculous statements like "best pg since magic" with no wcf appearances or rings. :facepalm

someone please call it like it is. chris paul isn't the caliber of winner everyone tries to make him out to be. you can be as "competitive" as you want but what's the point if it never leads to anything tangible like a championship?
I agree with this. How can we keep saying "he was supposed to lose all these series" and then turn around and act like his team is a competitor? Let's call it what it is: he's a good player but he's not good enough to be the best player on a contender. I say it that way because he has all the pieces in place for that team to be a competitor (coach, core, time together, role players, health, etc) but you have to be a really good PG to be the best player on a contender. He's not that...at least yet.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Some of these guys are paid massive delusional amounts of money to be that guy that makes the big play in the big moment, there's only a handful in the league that are in that category.. you're either in it or you're not

you can argue all day that one or two bad plays doesn't define a career but when those missed shots, bad plays or failings take place over and over again on the biggest stage under the brightest lights you bet your ass it has a bearing on what type of player history will judge you as

why bother even watching the games if you think it doesn't.. watch the draft combine once a year and fill out your hall of fame card from that

All that being said I don't think of CP3 as a "choker' but he certainly hasn't made the best argument for his place at the table of all time greats either.. he still has time, it's not a wrong that can never be righted but he should probably find that little extra something soon
:applause:

Well said gts. I actually agree with every sentence in this post. Ha!

[Optimus Prime]

Never?

For the "best PG of this generation", he sure puts up empty stats when the games aren't very important and falls to pieces time and time again when the games actually matter.

This isn't an isolated incident. Chris Paul has a long career of choking in the big moments and falling short. Superstars and "best of X" players find a way to carry their team and win, no matter what. He's the supposed "best PG of this generation" and has Blake Griffin as his running mate and Doc Rivers as his coach, yet keeps on choking and getting free passes by the media.

Reminds me of another media hyped "superstar" who chokes in the spotlight over and over again.

:kobe:

[PsychoBe]

I love Magic, but do you really believe he takes this team any further? Paul is the best defender on that team. They have nobody that can guard lockdown the PG spot if he's gone. Also I believe they loose the spacing they have, since Magic was not the shooter off the dribble Paul is. How is Magic going to post up or drive inside the paint with the lane already clogged? I think this team would still be very flawed.

what a disgusting post.

what pg is going to guard magic? tony parker??? patty mills???? corey joseph??? :oldlol: :oldlol:

magic would drive on them on every single possession, and once they start doubling him he's gonna make passes that would make a prime cp3 look like smush parker.

[DMAVS41]

Good thing this game didn't matter at all tonight.

[notatop29pg]

Good thing this game didn't matter at all tonight.

As i said in the game thread... For such an awful player who cant lead a team... It sure does get messy when he plays poorly.

[DMAVS41]

As i said in the game thread... For such an awful player who cant lead a team... It sure does get messy when he plays poorly.

Is that directed at me?

I've never called Paul and awful player.

In fact, in this thread, I called him a truly great player and one of the best pg's ever...

I'm more interested to know if the shot to win game 2 or his performance in game 3 matter. Again, I'm not saying they are career defining or even of huge importance. I'm curious as to why people are saying how a player plays doesn't matter.

Like I said last night. The Clippers essentially go from a 95% favorite to win the series if Paul makes that shot in game 2...to a sub 40% dog if he misses.

Again, I'm only interested in why it doesn't matter. I'm not saying it even matters more than a little in the grand scheme of things.

But there simply is a difference in making that shot and coming out and playing a great game 3 instead of missing and playing like Paul did tonight.

If Paul was able to make that shot and come out tonight and play great...he'd be a better basketball player. As his ability to do those things would be a reflection of how good at playing the game he actually is.

To say those things don't matter at all...not one bit...is absurd. And I'll keep hammering that point home because it's maddening to listen to the shit on here about how these guys don't have to perform.

[notatop29pg]

Is that directed at me?

I've never called Paul and awful player.

In fact, in this thread, I called him a truly great player and one of the best pg's ever...

I'm more interested to know if the shot to win game 2 or his performance in game 3 matter. Again, I'm not saying they are career defining or even of huge importance. I'm curious as to why people are saying how a player plays doesn't matter.

Like I said last night. The Clippers essentially go from a 95% favorite to win the series if Paul makes that shot in game 2...to a sub 40% dog if he misses.

Again, I'm only interested in why it doesn't matter. I'm not saying it even matters more than a little in the grand scheme of things.

But there simply is a difference in making that shot and coming out and playing a great game 3 instead of missing and playing like Paul did tonight.

If Paul was able to make that shot and come out tonight and play great...he'd be a better basketball player. As his ability to do those things would be a reflection of how good at playing the game he actually is.

To say those things don't matter at all...not one bit...is absurd. And I'll keep hammering that point home because it's maddening to listen to the shit on here about how these guys don't have to perform.

Relax, didnt mean to quote your post.

Just preparing for the overeaction posts.

[PsychoBe]

Is that directed at me?

I've never called Paul and awful player.

In fact, in this thread, I called him a truly great player and one of the best pg's ever...

I'm more interested to know if the shot to win game 2 or his performance in game 3 matter. Again, I'm not saying they are career defining or even of huge importance. I'm curious as to why people are saying how a player plays doesn't matter.

Like I said last night. The Clippers essentially go from a 95% favorite to win the series if Paul makes that shot in game 2...to a sub 40% dog if he misses.

Again, I'm only interested in why it doesn't matter. I'm not saying it even matters more than a little in the grand scheme of things.

But there simply is a difference in making that shot and coming out and playing a great game 3 instead of missing and playing like Paul did tonight.

If Paul was able to make that shot and come out tonight and play great...he'd be a better basketball player. As his ability to do those things would be a reflection of how good at playing the game he actually is.

To say those things don't matter at all...not one bit...is absurd. And I'll keep hammering that point home because it's maddening to listen to the shit on here about how these guys don't have to perform.

this. cp3 gets way too many passes.

if bran performed like cp3 did today.....'choke.'

if kobe performed like cp3 did today.....'choke'

if harden performed like cp3 did today.....'choke'

if curry performed like cp3 did today......'choke'

if dirk performed like cp3 did today.....'choke'

but cp3 does it? "it's a team game. there was nothing he could do about it."

i just want people on here to finally admit to themselves that he is not the caliber of player that they think he is. in real life no one gives too much thought into him because he hasn't won anything.

"basketball purists" can use "stats" and "efficiency" and "assist/turnover ratio" to say how good he is until the post-season hits, then suddenly "he's up against a better team" or "his team failed him" or "he did all he could" or some other nonsense.

[Mr. Jabbar]

makes me feel better about the veto

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/879/e91/d53/resized/****-david-stern-meme-generator-i-m-a-****ing-**********-0b523d.jpg?1323407497.jpg

[notatop29pg]

this. cp3 gets way too many passes.

if bran performed like cp3 did today.....'choke.'

if kobe performed like cp3 did today.....'choke'

if harden performed like cp3 did today.....'choke'

if curry performed like cp3 did today......'choke'

if dirk performed like cp3 did today.....'choke'

but cp3 does it? "it's a team game. there was nothing he could do about it."

i just want people on here to finally admit to themselves that he is not the caliber of player that they think he is. in real life no one gives too much thought into him because he hasn't won anything.

"basketball purists" can use "stats" and "efficiency" and "assist/turnover ratio" to say how good he is until the post-season hits, then suddenly "he's up against a better team" or "his team failed him" or "he did all he could" or some other nonsense.

How many threads do u need for him to not be getting a pass anymore...

Pretty certain hes the most trolled player on here when he loses or plays bad...

[DMAVS41]

So....

Will it matter if Paul comes out tomorrow and plays great and leads his team to a tie series. Will it matter at all?

Or has Paul reached some arbitrary point in his prime where it doesn't matter at all how he plays in the biggest moments/games of his career?

[chocolatethunder]

So....

Will it matter if Paul comes out tomorrow and plays great and leads his team to a tie series. Will it matter at all?

Or has Paul reached some arbitrary point in his prime where it doesn't matter at all how he plays in the biggest moments/games of his career?
Honestly I don't think that it will matter. I feel like there are two camps on Paul. The ones who think that he's up there with the greatest and that all his failures are not his fault and the others who feel like he's totally overrated. So if he fails, this will be written off as Doc being an awful GM (which is true) and an overrated coach (also true) by his fans and another example of his ineptitude by his detractors. If they win, his fans will say "he's a beast" and the detractors will say Blake carried them or the refs or that the Spurs had an off game or whatever. It's pointless to argue with either side.

[Optimus Prime]

makes me feel better about the veto

No :no: . The veto trashed the Lakers and ruined any chance CP3 had of a legitimate legacy as a great player.

Kobe
CP3
Howard
Phil Jackson

That is the start of a dynasty right there. Kobe is the alpha dog and the leader of the team; the go-to guy in clutch moments who is never afraid of the pressure. CP3 is the floor general and keeps the offense running smoothly. Howard is the defensive anchor and cleans up the glass. Phil is, of course, the best coach ever in any sport period.

That would have been a great team. Instead, the Lakers have been decimated, CP3 is a clown on a joke team, Howard is declining and breaking down, and Phil is getting dem checks and laughing all the way to the bank in NYC.

"Basketball reasons" :mad: :kobe:

[DMAVS41]

Honestly I don't think that it will matter. I feel like there are two camps on Paul. The ones who think that he's up there with the greatest and that all his failures are not his fault and the others who feel like he's totally overrated. So if he fails, this will be written off as Doc being an awful GM (which is true) and an overrated coach (also true) by his fans and another example of his ineptitude by his detractors. If they win, his fans will say "he's a beast" and the detractors will say Blake carried them or the refs or that the Spurs had an off game or whatever. It's pointless to argue with either side.

I'm not really talking so much about perception. Not sure if you have seen the whole thread...

But there is this notion on here by some people that it doesn't matter how a player plays...

So I was just curious if anyone actually thinks it matters if Paul comes out and plays great or terrible. Like...is there a difference or do we really need even care how well guys play...

Because I'm seeing a growing trend where the expectations are laughably low in terms of individual play (not team success) for guys people are saying some very lofty things about.

And vice versa...guys that people hate on when they are great...say it doesn't really matter.

To me, and it's just me, a player makes his rep in the playoffs. It's too easy for great players on good to great teams to have a ton of regular season success. So many bad teams in the league not giving close to a full effort night in night out in the league...

I like to see what guys can do when it really matters and everyone is locked in and playing in essentially do or die situations.

To me, it matters that Paul missed that shot in game 2 and then laid an enormous egg in game 3. Will it define his career? Nope. Does it make me rethink my entire position on him? Nope. Will it matter even less if they win the series? Yep.

But it does matter. How much it matters? Not sure. Not much. But it does matter. It has to. It has to matter if Paul (or any player) does make that shot in game 2 and does play a great game 3. Because being able to do those things are a reflection of how good they are at basketball.

To say...oh...no big deal...Paul missed that shot is fine, but it's ignoring that if Paul made that shot...he'd be an ever so slightly better basketball player because in that exact situation he'd succeed while the player we saw failed.

And if you have 100 moments like that over a career and one guy succeeds in 70 of them and one guys succeeds in 10 of them...and they are identical players outside those 100 moments.

We all know which guy we want on our team. So I'm still waiting to hear a logical argument as to why it doesn't actually matter how a player performs on the court in order to figure out how good at playing basketball they are.

[ArbitraryWater]

you need to stop this weird habit of yours where you go around and say "it doesn't matter if player a continues to fail...he's still top 10 and nothing else can change that."

i might be exaggerating a bit but still the premise is the same. not enough people on these forums hold cp3 accountable for anything no matter the circumstances.

he chokes away a lead to okc? "he was supposed to have lost that series."

he gets swept by the spurs and beaten by the lakers? "he was supposed to lose."

lose to the grizzlies in the first round? "blake and dj got dominated by zach and marc" even though mike conley virtually outplayed him too.

miss a potential game winner yesterday? "it wasn't a choke he just missed a game winner that's all" <---someone legit said this :roll: :roll: :roll:

and then you get ridiculous statements like "best pg since magic" with no wcf appearances or rings. :facepalm

someone please call it like it is. chris paul isn't the caliber of winner everyone tries to make him out to be. you can be as "competitive" as you want but what's the point if it never leads to anything tangible like a championship?

If that automatically means choke, then Kobe has choked 27 times in his playoff career, only succeeded 7 times, making him perhaps the GOAT choker.

[Nick Young]

chokers gonna choke. Thank god for basketball reasons vetoing that trade:bowdown:

[Eric Cartman]

To be fair, most of the times he has "choked" in the playoffs has been against the great Spurs or Lakers teams.

More than anything, it's losing to a better team.

[notatop29pg]

To be fair, most of the times he has "choked" in the playoffs has been against the great Spurs or Lakers teams.

More than anything, it's losing to a better team.

No place for fairness here champ!

Going 2 from 27 in a loss is alpha and carrying your team (unless you're Chris Paul)

Getting 21/7/8 and missing a game winner is choking (Unless your name is not Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James).

[coin24]

It's more that he goes missing in action too many games. Plus his last minute decision making is questionable at best. Whenever his team is down he can't do anything to bring them back, proceeds to blowout..

[notatop29pg]

It's more that he goes missing in action too many games. Plus his last minute decision making is questionable at best. Whenever his team is down he can't do anything to bring them back, proceeds to blowout..

Yet he gets zero credit for the fact that as soon as he leaves the court his team goes -15. Which is something that has been happening since he entered the league.

CP3 has led plenty of comebacks in big games, unfortunately around here unless it happened 5 minutes ago it never happened.

[bballnoob1192]

http://adityamehta.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Sky-Blue-Sky.jpg

[DMAVS41]

Too bad it doesn't matter that Paul was absolutely magnificent tonight in the biggest game of the season to even the series on the road and restore home court.

Who wants to tell him that playing great in a tough spot means nothing?

[notatop29pg]

Too bad it doesn't matter that Paul was absolutely magnificent tonight in the biggest game of the season to even the series on the road and restore home court.

Who wants to tell him that playing great in a tough spot means nothing?

Pretty sure the entire forum agrees with you.

The only time a CP3 game has any weight around here is if it's a bad one in a loss.

[Bosnian Sajo]

4/26/2015

[PsychoBe]

game 6 is his last chance.

and game 7 lol

[TheBigVeto]

There's no shame in losing to a team with the 2nd GOAT Coach, 2nd GOAT SG and the GOAT PF. None.

[GoSpursGo1984]

It would only be "held against him" if you start getting into specific player comparisons in which it would matter how Paul played at certain points of his career.

But I'm not one of these Paul has to do X or he's a career loser.

He's already a hall of famer and one of the best pg's ever.

This debate, for me, isn't really about Paul...it's about this idea that how players play past a certain point early on in their career doesn't matter.

I mean, just so you know, Kblaze said he never even needs to see Love play a playoff game to know exactly how good he is. Perhaps he doesn't...perhaps he can see the future. I don't buy it though...I need to see how he reacts to pressure in the playoffs. How he reacts to teams locking in against him and his team...playing against elite competition for weeks and having enough left in the tank to perform late in the playoffs...etc.

Those things are part of being good at basketball to me.

There is no way right now that Paul is a top ten all time pg unless your criteria is putting up empty stats and not getting far in the playoffs which opens the door for a lot of pgs to be in top ten.

[Nick Young]

can't even remember the last time he didnt choke in a series TBH.

[Taller than CP3]

CP3 steady chokin'

Choking should be a regular part of his arsenal by now.

[Nick Young]

CP3 steady chokin'

Choking should be a regular part of his arsenal by now.
It is. Just look at his entire post season career.

[sd3035]

His woman in distress antics ruin the chemistry of his team, that's not what leadership is about

[Tmuston Beltics]

Paul seems like the kind of guy that don't mind losing as long as he got money. There's no fire in him.


Wow.. how racist can this forum be :wtf: Qay

[PsychoBe]

good job cp3. you proved me wrong

now go on ahead and get out of the second round.

[Smoke117]

good job cp3. you proved me wrong

now go on ahead and get out of the second round.

And you go on ahead and kill yourself. Your post are cringeworthy you little f*ck.

[plowking]

I'm slowly becoming a CP3 fan. All started before the playoffs, and I really do admire his will to win. Wish he didn't flop so much, but it is what it is.

Dude turned in a Curry like performance. 51/43/97 shooting in the series while putting up 23/8. Nuts. Insane numbers considering his 7 point game in the series.

[Im Still Ballin]

I'm slowly becoming a CP3 fan. All started before the playoffs, and I really do admire his will to win. Wish he didn't flop so much, but it is what it is.

Dude turned in a Curry like performance. 51/43/97 shooting in the series while putting up 23/8. Nuts. Insane numbers considering his 7 point game in the series.
Hey plow

You ever done weighted planks?

[plowking]

Hey plow

You ever done weighted planks?

Nah dude.

I haven't really gone hard on abs too much due to lordosis and stuff that you said you deal with as well. Mine was really bad, but I got the GF to massage the f*ck out of my right QL recently, and man, my hips have felt pretty good and the lordosis in the back has decreased. Might give them a shot, but I doubt I'd do too well on them. Core strength has suffered a fair bit since I stopped doing heavy squats.

[VengefulAngel]

Nah dude.

I haven't really gone hard on abs too much due to lordosis and stuff that you said you deal with as well. Mine was really bad, but I got the GF to massage the f*ck out of my right QL recently, and man, my hips have felt pretty good and the lordosis in the back has decreased. Might give them a shot, but I doubt I'd do too well on them. Core strength has suffered a fair bit since I stopped doing heavy squats.

Same boat man, it's really rough.

[PsychoBe]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[gts]

Well this series certainly isn't going to change CP3 detractors minds

[notatop29pg]

Well this series certainly isn't going to change CP3 detractors minds

Just like it won't change the minds of his fans.

He did, bring them back to within 3... then Blake took over.

[DMAVS41]

Just like it won't change the minds of his fans.

He did, bring them back to within 3... then Blake took over.

So let me guess. It means nothing that for the 2nd straight year Paul has been directly involved in epic choke jobs...while having no deep runs in the playoffs his entire career.

That the game 5 choke last year and then going ghost in an all time collapse at home...just mean nothing.

It has nothing to do with how good Paul is at playing basketball?

Is that right?