Anyone else believe that Magic may be - at least lightly - overrated?

[SuperPippen]

Not an agenda driven question, I'm not here to irrationally hate on a basketball legend, but this is what I believe.

People frequently rank Magic in the top 5 all time of their GOAT lists. Some even believe that he's one of the few non-MJ players that can be legitimately argued for GOAT. I disagree.

Firstly, out of all of the consensus top 10 players (MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Bird Magic, Kobe, Hakeem, Lebron) Magic was by FAR the worst defender. In fact he was the only player on the aforementioned list who I'd call a complete net-negative on that side of the floor.

Additionally, he was drafted into possibly the most fortunate circumstances of any player in the top 10. He was lucky enough to share the floor with the best player in the league at the time, Kareem, who would actually win his sixth MVP during Magic's rookie year. It's arguable that Magic wasn't even the best player on the Lakers until '87, which would mean that Magic wasn't even the best player on his own team for the majority of his career.

Furthermore, I just don't believe Magic to be as talented as anyone else in the top 10, outside of maybe Russell. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to claim that he was some scrub who was carried by superior players. He was a very good scorer, good leader, a huge triple double threat, and an obviously an incredibly gifted passer. But even considering all of that, his talent still doesn't quite stack up to the other members of the top 10, at least IMO.


I would actually rank all of Duncan, Shaq, Bird, and Kobe over Magic.

Agree? Disagree?

[GOBB]

You're alone. Seems like a thread that was spawned due to boredom. Like hmmm, Magic Johnson. How can I wore a thread to say he was overrated without being attacked? :confusedshrug:

[IllegalD]

Not an agenda driven question, I'm not here to irrationally hate on a basketball legend, but this is what I believe.

People frequently rank Magic in the top 5 all time of their GOAT lists. Some even believe that he's one of the few non-MJ players that can be legitimately argued for GOAT. I disagree.

Firstly, out of all of the consensus top 10 players (MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Bird Magic, Kobe, Hakeem, Lebron) Magic was by FAR the worst defender. In fact he was the only player on the aforementioned list who I'd call a complete net-negative on that side of the floor.

Additionally, he was drafted into possibly the most fortunate circumstances of any player in the top 10. He was lucky enough to share the floor with the best player in the league at the time, Kareem, who would actually win his sixth MVP during Magic's rookie year. It's arguable that Magic wasn't even the best player on the Lakers until '87, which would mean that Magic wasn't even the best player on his own team for the majority of his career.

Furthermore, I just don't believe Magic to be as talented as anyone else in the top 10, outside of maybe Russell. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to claim that he was some scrub who was carried by superior players. He was a very good scorer, good leader, a huge triple double threat, and an obviously an incredibly gifted passer. But even considering all of that, his talent still doesn't quite stack up to the other members of the top 10, at least IMO.


I would actually rank all of Duncan, Shaq, Bird, and Kobe over Magic.

Agree? Disagree?

Agreed.

1) Magic wasn't an elite defender. People want to pretend that the rest of his all-around game (scoring, passing, rebounding, plus the "intangible leadership") is impactful enough to make up for it, but I disagree. The game is played on BOTH sides of the court. (The lack of defense things is also brushed off when it comes to measuring Larry Bird's GOATness)

2) Magic never won a ring without Kareem (another GOAT/top 10 candidate). That's the equivalent of "Kobe not winning without Shaq" until he finally did. Except people don't hold it against Magic because he has a nice smile and is a "fun-loving guy".

[navy]

Agreed.

1) Magic wasn't an elite defender. People want to pretend that the rest of his all-around game (scoring, passing, rebounding, plus the "intangible leadership") is impactful enough to make up for it, but I disagree. The game is played on BOTH sides of the court. (The lack of defense things is also brushed off when it comes to measuring Larry Bird's GOATness)

2) Magic never won a ring without Kareem (another GOAT/top 10 candidate). That's the equivalent of "Kobe not winning without Shaq" until he finally did. Except people don't hold it against Magic because he has a nice smile and is a "fun-loving guy".
1) Point guard defense is overrated. It's more important today because of how teams run offenses, but it's really each to screen players off now that guarding the point guard is a team job. Besides in the 80s nobody played defense really.

2) Magic won plenty of big games with Kareem being injured or a complete liability. In fact Magics win percentage without Kareem is higher than his win percentage with Kareem.

[tpols]

kobe and duncan have an edge in goat lists over Bird and magic due to much better longevity.. I'd say something like

MJ
KAJ
Russell/Wilt

Duncan
kobe
magic
bird

Shaq
hakeem

[SuperPippen]

You're alone. Seems like a thread that was spawned due to boredom. Like hmmm, Magic Johnson. How can I wore a thread to say he was overrated without being attacked? :confusedshrug:


lol, I could care less if I'm attacked for this opinion. Just wanted to make it clear that I don't have agenda, and start a potentially worthwhile discussion over an opinion I've had for a while. So kindly piss off if you don't have an actual contribution to make.

It's just an internet message board and, unlike you, I don't take this too seriously.

[sp6r=underrated]

Magic is generally ranked fairly. I do think the early seasons of his career are overrated and especially his rookie year due to game 6.

[GOBB]

lol, I could care less if I'm attacked for this opinion. Just wanted to make it clear that I don't have agenda, and start a potentially worthwhile discussion over an opinion I've had for a while. So kindly piss off if you don't have an actual contribution to make.

It's just an internet message board and, unlike you, I don't take this too seriously.

If you didnt take this board too seriously why preface your nonsense with you not having an agenda while telling another poster such as myself to piss off because of a post they made that didn't fall under the contribution category bub? :confusedshrug:

Highly doubt this opinion you had for awhile. It was created out of sheer boredom. Were you even alive for Magic's career or is this something you sat on your ass and thought? Yanno, just googled Magic career then found ways to pick n prod his career and come up with a thread.

Anyway, I will visit this thread just to laugh at how the young posters here will say "Yeah you're right just because" until grandpa Kblaze gives you kids an Adrian Peterson like spanking in post form. :pimp:

[LAZERUSS]

Magic is easily Top-5 and has a case as the GOAT.

[SouBeachTalents]

Magic is easily Top-5 and has a case as the GOAT.

What case would Magic have over Jordan? 3 more Finals appearances on a great team in a weak conference?

[IllegalD]

1) Point guard defense is overrated. It's more important today because of how teams run offenses, but it's really each to screen players off now that guarding the point guard is a team job. Besides in the 80s nobody played defense really.

2) Magic won plenty of big games with Kareem being injured or a complete liability. In fact Magics win percentage without Kareem is higher than his win percentage with Kareem.

Still doesn't change the fact that 1) he wasn't an elite defender, 2) he never won without Kareem. :confusedshrug:

Please, look at yourself scrambling for excuses. :roll:

[AirFederer]

You talking bout defence and rate Kobe higher than Magic? And that's not hating on Frobe.
The ultimate teamplayer?

Magic is top 5. Easy.

MJ
Kareem
Russ
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Lebron
Hakeem
Wilt
Kobe

[Akrazotile]

The flaws of players from before the internet age are generally viewed with a smaller magnifying glass.

If the internet had been around during the time of Russell, Wild, Bird, Magic, these guys would all have tons of haters and detractors and people calling them overrated because of the talent around them.

The anonymity of the internet allows people to be more critical of popular players than they'd be willing to be in a face to face conversation.

[iamgine]

It's arguable that Magic wasn't even the best player on the Lakers until '87, which would mean that Magic wasn't even the best player on his own team for the majority of his career.
?
Umm no, not really. Magic was already better than Kareem by his 3rd season, as shown by MVP voting. He just wasn't "the man" because Kareem was his senior.

[Hey Yo]

The flaws of players from before the internet age are generally viewed with a smaller magnifying glass.

If the internet had been around during the time of Russell, Wild, Bird, Magic, these guys would all have tons of haters and detractors and people calling them overrated because of the talent around them.

The anonymity of the internet allows people to be more critical of popular players than they'd be willing to be in a face to face conversation.
Totally agree except you don't have to be a hater to point out flaws and talent around said player

Earvin's first 4 seasons he was listed as a SG which is pretty funny, because he barely had a set shot from outside and no jumpshot. Basically a very rich man's prime Rondo but could make his FTA and post up

Agree that he's slightly overrated.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Magic took over as the Lakers best player A LOT earlier than '87 -- probably as early as '82. That's when Kareem's minutes got cut, and also when he totally stopped rebounding and being a monster post defender.

I have Magic top 5/6, but you're entitled to your opinion.

[game3524]

Anyone who thinks Magic is overrated, I just say go watch the Lakers in 1990-91 and then the Lakers 1991-92. No perimeter player, not Bird, MJ, Kobe, Lebron etc. had the impact on his team like Magic Johnson did.

He is not only the best PG of all-time, but the best leader in NBA history. IMO, he is easily a top 5 player.

[SouBeachTalents]

I feel that out of all the top 10 players, Magic seemingly gets immunity to the criticisms the other all time greats face.

Kobe's first 3 titles are constantly dismissed because he played with Shaq, meanwhile this dude played with a consensus top 3 player of all time in his prime, someone who was also winning MVP's and Finals MVP's, yet how often are Magic's titles diminished for playing with Kareem?

That doesn't even include the other teammates Magic had like Worthy and Cooper, not to mention Riley as coach. Seriously, can you imagine if Bosh put up a 36/16/10 in Game 7 of the Finals and won Finals MVP? We would NEVER hear the end of it on ISH. Hell, Bosh didn't even score a single point in Game 7 of the Finals and people still talk about how stacked the Heat were.

Speaking of LeBron, you always hear about how weak the East is to try to diminish his achievements. Meanwhile the West in the '80's was arguably just as bad, but once again, this is never brought up or held against Magic. Seriously, check out the Lakers road to the Finals in '84, '85, and '87, and tell me when even LeBron faced competition as pathetic as that.

Before people take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to diminish Magic's career or achievements, I'm just pointing out how criticisms leveled at other players for almost literally the same kinds that could be held against Magic are almost never brought up

[sammichoffate]

I feel that out of all the top 10 players, Magic seemingly gets immunity to the criticisms the other all time greats face.

Kobe's first 3 titles are constantly dismissed because he played with Shaq, meanwhile this dude played with a consensus top 3 player of all time in his prime, someone who was also winning MVP's and Finals MVP's, yet how often are Magic's titles diminished for playing with Kareem?

That doesn't even include the other teammates Magic had like Worthy and Cooper, not to mention Riley as coach. Seriously, can you imagine if Bosh put up a 36/16/10 in Game 7 of the Finals and won Finals MVP? We would NEVER hear the end of it on ISH. Hell, Bosh didn't even score a single point in Game 7 of the Finals and people still talk about how stacked the Heat were.

Speaking of LeBron, you always hear about how weak the East is to try to diminish his achievements. Meanwhile the West in the '80's was arguably just as bad, but once again, this is never brought up or held against Magic. Seriously, check out the Lakers road to the Finals in '84, '85, and '87, and tell me when even LeBron faced competition as pathetic as that.

Before people take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to diminish Magic's career or achievements, I'm just pointing out how criticisms leveled at other players for almost literally the same kinds that could be held against Magic are almost never brought upThe stans are too busy ethering eachother to notice :lol

[SuperPippen]

If you didnt take this board too seriously why preface your nonsense with you not having an agenda while telling another poster such as myself to piss off because of a post they made that didn't fall under the contribution category bub? :confusedshrug:

Highly doubt this opinion you had for awhile. It was created out of sheer boredom. Were you even alive for Magic's career or is this something you sat on your ass and thought? Yanno, just googled Magic career then found ways to pick n prod his career and come up with a thread.

Anyway, I will visit this thread just to laugh at how the young posters here will say "Yeah you're right just because" until grandpa Kblaze gives you kids an Adrian Peterson like spanking in post form. :pimp:

No, I'm not old enough to have watched Magic when he was in the league, nor did I ever claim that I was. Are you old enough to have watched every player you've ever formulated an opinion on? I highly doubt that.

And no, I did not randomly decide to "pick n prod" Magic's career one day out of "sheer boredom." This is a conclusion I've naturally come to based on the knowledge I've gained by watching and studying basketball.

:lol at you accusing me of randomly propagating an unfounded opinion, when you've yet to offer any kind of legitimate rebuttal to the points I've made. It seems that you are actually incapable of doing so, seeing as though you just made clear your intention to wait until another more knowledgeable poster argues for you. That's some beta shit, bub.

Maybe if you'd ever done anything on this board besides bore us all with your antagonistic asshole persona, you'd be capable of arguing for yourself.

Anyway, it's good to see some sort of discussion in this thread.

[Sarcastic]

If anything, Magic is underrated. Lakers started winning when he showed up, and stopped winning when he retired. He is also the best passer of all time, by far. No one has ever run an offense better, or been a better floor general than Magic Johnson.

[HOoopCityJones]

If anything, Magic is underrated. Lakers started winning when he showed up, and stopped winning when he retired. He is also the best passer of all time, by far. No one has ever run an offense better, or been a better floor general than Magic Johnson.

This is like when people Say Shaq didn't start winning until Kobe became great.

Put another Top PG in Magic's place next to Kareem, let's say Isiah Thomas, Lakers still don't go deep in the Playoffs every year?

[Showtime80']

Three points to shut down the stupidest thread EVER seen on this site:

1. Lakers in the 1979 season before Magic= 47 wins lost in the Conference semis. 1980 Lakers with basically the same team as 79' subtracting Dantley and adding Magic= 60 wins and championship. Lakers in 1991 with Magic 58 wins a trip to the Finals, 1992 Lakers with basically the same team without Magic plus Sedale Threat= 43 wins and a first round loss.

2. Western conference winning % against the East from 1980 to 1991 (Magic's career)= 47%. Eastern Conference winning % versus the West from 2003 to 2015 (LeBron's career) 42%. Not even frigging close

3. Individual defense is the most OVERRATED aspect in basketball because NO ONE ONE defender can shut down good to great scoters on a consistent basis. I've seen Michael and Scottie get lit up by guys like Danny Ainge, Jamaal Mashburn, Joe Dumars, Glen Robinson etc. TEAM defense is what is all a about. Michael Jordan was known to be given that quality of "great individual defender" since college yet the Bulls SUCKED on defense for years until Scottie and Horace Grant showed up and enable them to have 3 active bodies on the floor to have a great TEAM DEFENSE. Magic was an excellent team defender and thanks to other active bodies like Coop, Wilkes, Worthy, Scott and the big man Kareem protecting the rim the had a great TEAM defense!

Question for the ignoramuses on this site: which team wins more, Scottie Pippen and 11 scrubs or Magic Johnson and 11 scrubs?

[SHAQisGOAT]

He is, at times. People talking about him being GOAT or placing him at least two spots above Bird, imo are overrating him...

On the other hand, people saying he was just a terrible shooter at any point, and a bad defender at his best on D... Are underrating his abilities, and don't know what they're talking about.




(The lack of defense things is also brushed off when it comes to measuring Larry Bird's GOATness)


Please... :rolleyes:

1st of all, Bird has a major case for best overall offensive player EVER (all-around shooting, footwork, post-game, soft-touch, both hands around the rim, passing, playmaking, off-ball play, offensive rebounding, fitting with any type of teammate in any type of strategy, offensive IQ, clutchness...).

Secondly, don't underrate his defense when you've clearly don't know what you're talking about. Plenty underrate his defense though.
How about this...

Celtics were a bottom3 defense before Bird was there, then when he came around - with basically the same core roster and new coach Fitch - they moved to top5, while Larry was 1st in the league in DWS and 6th in DRtg.
No McHale, no Parish, no DJ, no elite defender on the team as Cowens and Chaney were on their last legs. No major shot-blockers/rim-protectors either, nobody blocking over 1 shot per game on that team.
Coincidence I guess? :confusedshrug:

Bird was league-leader in DWS for 4 times, 7x top5. He was once 2nd in DRtg, 6x top10.
Other forwards doing the same (top in DWS+DRtg), at least for one season? You got dudes like Garnett, Pippen, Duncan, Rodman, and very few others... You'll only come up with players very praised for their D. Bird was doing that shit on the regular.
More coincidence I guess? :confusedshrug:

Checking the defensive plus/minus on bballreference, he was also once 4th in the league, 6x top10.
Shit, from 1980 to 1985 he led ALL players in the league in combined DWS. I don't think any other forward can claim the same, for 5 combined years.
:confusedshrug:

During this day and age where players make all-defensive teams by name/fame/status, and where you got basketball geeks drooling over advanced stats... Bird would've had much more all-defensive selections (he should even have more back then, tbh).

Dude was a great team defender, had major defensive IQ and awereness, possessed two of the quickest hands in the business, was very strong and a pretty good post-defender, he rarely got lost on rotations, won charges, put his body on the line to protect the rim, played the passing lanes very well, hustled all out, came up with (mainly weakside) blocks every once in a while, created plenty of TO's, was great defensive rebounder, he didn't have the lateral quickness to really shut-down guys on the perimeter but plenty of times more than held his ground out there, even against players he "shouldn't" even be guarding in the 1st place...

Had plenty of defensive impact and his teams' (instant) success also owns to that plenty. Celtics were much better defensively with him on the court.

If anything, check some highlights...
You get to see this man making huge, clutch steals in the Playoffs more than once; stopping Michael Jordan on a 1on1 fastbreak; preventing James Worthy from pulling his patented quick spin; guarding Hakeem in the post m2m, blocking his shot; some great, smart weakside blocks on all-time great players; making great, quick rotations; double-teaming and stripping Olajuwon of the ball, just before the dream-shake; creating TO's, for the easy fb points; denying Sampson from getting the ball down-low; protecting the rim; holding his ground against 250+ lbs Bill Laimbeer, stuffing his fga; winning charges; putting an end to a 3on2 fb with awareness and hand quickness... So on...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s

:confusedshrug: :rolleyes:

[Sarcastic]

This is like when people Say Shaq didn't start winning until Kobe became great.

Put another Top PG in Magic's place next to Kareem, let's say Isiah Thomas, Lakers still don't go deep in the Playoffs every year?


You can hypothesize all you want, but the fact of the matter is that Kareem and the Lakers didn't win shit for about a decade, then Magic shows up and they win a championship.

Do you think Isiah Thomas could play center and drop 42/15/6 while Kareem sat on the bench in street clothes?

[dubeta]

He's not as good as LeBron but he's still top 7

[SouBeachTalents]

You can hypothesize all you want, but the fact of the matter is that Kareem and the Lakers didn't win shit for about a decade, then Magic shows up and they win a championship.

Do you think Isiah Thomas could play center and drop 42/15/6 while Kareem sat on the bench in street clothes?

4 years is not quite a decade

[Hey Yo]

On the other hand, people saying he was just a terrible shooter at any point, and a bad defender at his best on D... Are underrating his abilities, and don't know what they're talking about.
So you're saying that Magic had a good outside set shot and jumpshot his whole career??

[Sarcastic]

4 years is not quite a decade


I meant for Kareem, and 1971-1980 is almost a decade.

[Wiltside]

He is overrated by some. Usually when he is place top 3 all time. #5 seems about right to me.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Magic is overrated because white people overrated Larry Bird and Magic was better than him. Kobe and Duncan are better than both.

[jimmybball]

Disagree.

[IllegalD]

He is, at times. People talking about him being GOAT or placing him at least two spots above Bird, imo are overrating him...

On the other hand, people saying he was just a terrible shooter at any point, and a bad defender at his best on D... Are underrating his abilities, and don't know what they're talking about.





Please... :rolleyes:

1st of all, Bird has a major case for best overall offensive player EVER (all-around shooting, footwork, post-game, soft-touch, both hands around the rim, passing, playmaking, off-ball play, offensive rebounding, fitting with any type of teammate in any type of strategy, offensive IQ, clutchness...).

Secondly, don't underrate his defense when you've clearly don't know what you're talking about. Plenty underrate his defense though.
How about this...

Celtics were a bottom3 defense before Bird was there, then when he came around - with basically the same core roster and new coach Fitch - they moved to top5, while Larry was 1st in the league in DWS and 6th in DRtg.
No McHale, no Parish, no DJ, no elite defender on the team as Cowens and Chaney were on their last legs. No major shot-blockers/rim-protectors either, nobody blocking over 1 shot per game on that team.
Coincidence I guess? :confusedshrug:

Bird was league-leader in DWS for 4 times, 7x top5. He was once 2nd in DRtg, 6x top10.
Other forwards doing the same (top in DWS+DRtg), at least for one season? You got dudes like Garnett, Pippen, Duncan, Rodman, and very few others... You'll only come up with players very praised for their D. Bird was doing that shit on the regular.
More coincidence I guess? :confusedshrug:

Checking the defensive plus/minus on bballreference, he was also once 4th in the league, 6x top10.
Shit, from 1980 to 1985 he led ALL players in the league in combined DWS. I don't think any other forward can claim the same, for 5 combined years.
:confusedshrug:

During this day and age where players make all-defensive teams by name/fame/status, and where you got basketball geeks drooling over advanced stats... Bird would've had much more all-defensive selections (he should even have more back then, tbh).

Dude was a great team defender, had major defensive IQ and awereness, possessed two of the quickest hands in the business, was very strong and a pretty good post-defender, he rarely got lost on rotations, won charges, put his body on the line to protect the rim, played the passing lanes very well, hustled all out, came up with (mainly weakside) blocks every once in a while, created plenty of TO's, was great defensive rebounder, he didn't have the lateral quickness to really shut-down guys on the perimeter but plenty of times more than held his ground out there, even against players he "shouldn't" even be guarding in the 1st place...

Had plenty of defensive impact and his teams' (instant) success also owns to that plenty. Celtics were much better defensively with him on the court.

If anything, check some highlights...
You get to see this man making huge, clutch steals in the Playoffs more than once; stopping Michael Jordan on a 1on1 fastbreak; preventing James Worthy from pulling his patented quick spin; guarding Hakeem in the post m2m, blocking his shot; some great, smart weakside blocks on all-time great players; making great, quick rotations; double-teaming and stripping Olajuwon of the ball, just before the dream-shake; creating TO's, for the easy fb points; denying Sampson from getting the ball down-low; protecting the rim; holding his ground against 250+ lbs Bill Laimbeer, stuffing his fga; winning charges; putting an end to a 3on2 fb with awareness and hand quickness... So on...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s

:confusedshrug: :rolleyes:


OK. So Bird is "underrated" defensively. Are you really gonna' sit there and tell me that he is comparable on that end to ELITE defensive players in their prime like Jordan, LeBron, Duncan, Kobe, etc.?

And :roll: at people now saying that individual defense is overrated. Of course you're going to completely ignore one side of the basketball court because two of your heroes (Magic and Bird) aren't as good on that end as other all time greats. :rolleyes:

[SHAQisGOAT]

So you're saying that Magic had a good outside set shot and jumpshot his whole career??

So, not being terrible instantly means he's good? :rolleyes:

I've said it before, he always developed his shooting (even off-the-dribble) and the range on his shot, throughout his whole career... And he didn't arrive in the league as a TERRIBLE shooter.

Teams used to give him the open shot to try and prevent his great driving ability, his tremendous playmaking skills and his very good post-game as a 6'8 guard, plus to double-team Kareem down-low. Given all of that, and his shooting not being good at 1st, I'd call it a good strategy... That began to stop in the mid-80's as he really made them pay. For example, he shot 56.4% from mid-range for the 1984 Finals, with 55 out of his 84 total shots coming from there.

How about his FT shooting? Shot 81% from free-throw in his rookie season, on 6 attempts per game.
Always developed there too, peaking at 91% on 7.3 attempts, which is terrific.

He could shoot very high FG%'s and score close to 20 PPG, in his 1st years... I've talked about the fastbreak, the post-game, the size at the position, the driving/passing skills... Even so, you don't get there while FLAT-OUT not being ABLE to shoot, while being a TERRIBLE shooter.

Oh, and shooting isn't just about 3pt shooting... Even so, Magic even got to be a nice 3pt shooter later on, peaking at 38.4% on 3.5 attempts in 1990. 5th in 3P's made that year.

Also, his jumper was far from pretty while unconventional... That gets people to somewhat underrate his shooting, too.

[Brunch@Five]

OK so am I getting this right that people try to diminish Bird and Magic's all-time ranking based on their defense, a set of skills that cannot really be put into metrics but needs to be seen, comparing them to players they have seen for the most part of their career. Pretending that Kobe has been an elite defender for more than a couple seasons at best, and LeBron living off reputation as well. Though both are clearly at least good defenders, it's idiotic to mention them in the same sentence as Tim Duncan.

In terms of success, accolades, stats, big game performance and impact on their team AND the league, Bird and Magic both have a case over anyone but Jordan. Also, I don't see how Kobe has a case over any of them, other than longevity. I'd certainly put him on their tier.

MJ

Kareem (Wilt/Russel--> tough to rank)

LeBron/Bird/Magic
Kobe/Duncan/Shaq

those last 6 are very close, and Bron still has a chance to fetch Kareem.

[MJistheGOAT]

- He was a good to great team defender
- GOAT PG, floor general, passer and leader.
- Awesome resume, accolades, rings, MVPs, FMVPs, etc.
- Team *cks before and after him
- Magic is top 5/6 GOAT (MJ/Kareem, Wilt/Russell, Magic/Bird)

Also, stans overrating as hell Kobe and Lebron in the defensive end. Only Frobe was elite and Lebron for 3-4 years at maximum. Rest is only stans, media and living from reputation.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

OK so am I getting this right that people try to diminish Bird and Magic's all-time ranking based on their defense, a set of skills that cannot really be put into metrics but needs to be seen, comparing them to players they have seen for the most part of their career. Pretending that Kobe has been an elite defender for more than a couple seasons at best, and LeBron living off reputation as well. Though both are clearly at least good defenders, it's idiotic to mention them in the same sentence as Tim Duncan.

In terms of success, accolades, stats, big game performance and impact on their team AND the league, Bird and Magic both have a case over anyone but Jordan. Also, I don't see how Kobe has a case over any of them, other than longevity. I'd certainly put him on their tier.

MJ

Kareem (Wilt/Russel--> tough to rank)

LeBron/Bird/Magic
Kobe/Duncan/Shaq

those last 6 are very close, and Bron still has a chance to fetch Kareem.

If only they voted on this sort of thing every year or something....

Tim Duncan has 14 all defensive team selections.
Kobe Bryant has 12 all defensive team selections.
Larry Bird has 3 all defensive team selections.
Magic Johnson has 0 all defensive team selections.

:confusedshrug:

Duncan and Kobe have more rings than Bird and Magic. They face tougher competition throughout the playoffs, more efficient playoff defenses and had less talented teammates around them per title team.

What more do you want exactly?

[SouBeachTalents]

If only they voted on this sort of thing every year or something....

Tim Duncan has 14 all defensive team selections.
Kobe Bryant has 12 all defensive team selections.
Larry Bird has 3 all defensive team selections.
Magic Johnson has 0 all defensive team selections.

:confusedshrug:

Well, I guess just adding up All-Defensive selections is the best way to rank how great a defender a player was. I guess Kobe is the greatest perimeter defender of all time, and even better than the likes of Pippen, Payton, Wallace, Rodman, and Hakeem, while Russell is just shit out of luck

[IllegalD]

Well, I guess just adding up All-Defensive selections is the best way to rank how great a defender a player was. I guess Kobe is the greatest perimeter defender of all time, and even better than the likes of Pippen, Payton, Wallace, Rodman, and Hakeem, while Russell is just shit out of luck

No, dumbass. It doesn't make him THE GREATEST defensive player of all time, but he's certainly ONE of the greatest, especially at his position. And he's definitely superior to Magic/Bird on that end.

Jesus, why do Kobe-haters always have to resort to the most ridiculous hyperbole to try to make their points? :facepalm

As far as elite perimeter defensive players who are also elite offensive players (aka not just defensive specialists like Bowen who get to just focus on defense), only Jordan, LeBron, Pippen, Payton are arguably superior to Kobe.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Well, I guess just adding up All-Defensive selections is the best way to rank how great a defender a player was. I guess Kobe is the greatest perimeter defender of all time, and even better than the likes of Pippen, Payton, Wallace, Rodman, and Hakeem, while Russell is just shit out of luck

Kobe is a shooting guard and didn't win all defensive team awards over 7 footers.

The same voting rules applied to Magic and Larry.

:confusedshrug:

[Brunch@Five]

If only they voted on this sort of thing every year or something....

Tim Duncan has 14 all defensive team selections.
Kobe Bryant has 12 all defensive team selections.
Larry Bird has 3 all defensive team selections.
Magic Johnson has 0 all defensive team selections.

:confusedshrug:

all of Kobe's All-D selections have been well-deserved of course :rolleyes:

don't get me wrong: I'd take Kobe on defense over both Bird and Magic. It's just nonsense to use defense as an argument to put Magic and Bird down 30 years after the fact when there is no possible way for you to properly analyze that facet of their game. They were the consensus two best players in the league on the two best teams in the league for one decade. While they weren't All-D level defenders, they weren't Dirk Nowitzki bad either. Both were great team defenders.
Their individual defense is simply a very bad argument to use when ranking them on an all-time list.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

all of Kobe's All-D selections have been well-deserved of course :rolleyes:

don't get me wrong: I'd take Kobe on defense over both Bird and Magic. It's just nonsense to use defense as an argument to put Magic and Bird down 30 years after the fact when there is no possible way for you to properly analyze that facet of their game. They were the consensus two best players in the league on the two best teams in the league for one decade. While they weren't All-D level defenders, they weren't Dirk Nowitzki bad either. Both were great team defenders.
Their individual defense is simply a very bad argument to use when ranking them on an all-time list.

Am I supposed to believe that coaches were in more of awe of Kobe Bryant during his career such that he got undeserved accolades any more than Larry Bird and Magic Johnson? The great white hope and the most likeable played in NBA history???

[Brunch@Five]

Am I supposed to believe that coaches were in more of awe of Kobe Bryant during his career such that he got undeserved accolades any more than Larry Bird and Magic Johnson? The great white hope and the most likeable played in NBA history???

I don't know since when you're following the NBA closely, but - yes.

Perimeter players' selection on All-D teams has often been suspect, especially for players as hyped as Bron and Kobe.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I don't know since when you're following the NBA closely, but - yes.

Perimeter players' selection on All-D teams has often been suspect, especially for players as hyped as Bron and Kobe.

Did Larry Bird and Magic Johnson not receive hype? What makes you believe they did not also receive any superstar benefit of the doubt bias in their era?

[IllegalD]

Did Larry Bird and Magic Johnson not receive hype? What makes you believe they did not also receive any superstar benefit of the doubt bias in their era?

EXACTLY. :roll: @ people acting like Kobe is some kind of "media darling", and that other players like Magic and Bird weren't universally beloved even more.

[DonDadda59]

kobe and duncan have an edge in goat lists over Bird and magic due to much better longevity..

Longevity is overrated if it's spent chucking for mid 30s shooting percentages on lottery teams. If Magic had played until 36 and had the Lakers at like 20-62 a few seasons while being an embarrassment on the court... would that have enhanced his legacy?

Magic had his career cut extremely short. He only played from age 20-31. But he still managed to rack up 5 rings in 9 trips to the finals, 3 finals MVPs, 3 regular season MVPs, 9X all NBA first team, 12X all star. He has the highest APG in NBA history and finished #5 all time in total assists despite playing by far the least # of seasons/games than anyone else in that group.

[ImKobe]

How on earth does Magic Johnson have a case over Kobe Bryant all-time? I still see ignorant fans rank Magic in the top 3 without hesistation...

I guess part of it is because he's undisputed best at his position, other part is that he was by far the most beloved player of his era (not to mention the face of the league) and the HIV factor added even more love for him in retrospect, because his career was cut short and we never really saw him decline in a way we usually see all-time greats go out (he did come back, but you know what I mean).

I love the guy like every other Laker fan, but let's not forget he had two guys win Finals MVP over him, one being 38 yr old Kareem and other being Worthy, and he said Kobe's better than him so..

[Brunch@Five]

Did Larry Bird and Magic Johnson not receive hype? What makes you believe they did not also receive any superstar benefit of the doubt bias in their era?

Bird and Magic were both hyped, but not as defenders. They were hyped as a total package, and both surpassed the hype. Do you honestly believe that Kobe lived up to his defensive reputation/hype after 2003? :biggums:

[Brunch@Five]

EXACTLY. :roll: @ people acting like Kobe is some kind of "media darling", and that other players like Magic and Bird weren't universally beloved even more.

:roll: @you thinking that media worked the same way in the 80s as it worked in the 2000s with 24h coverage and the internet :facepalm

[IllegalD]

Bird and Magic were both hyped, but not as defenders. They were hyped as a total package, and both surpassed the hype. Do you honestly believe that Kobe lived up to his defensive reputation/hype after 2003? :biggums:

So Kobe's defensive selections are based on "hype" and "media reputation", but Bird's 3 All Defensive 2nd Team Selections are all completely legit....? :confusedshrug:

No media hype/bias there...

And just look at Kobe's defense during his MVP year (2008) for the answer to your asinine question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VCVP9L25vk

[ImKobe]

:roll: @you thinking that media worked the same way in the 80s as it worked in the 2000s with 24h coverage and the internet :facepalm

Magic was/is the most beloved NBA athlete of all-time while Kobe arguably has the most haters out of any NBA player of all-time.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Bird and Magic were both hyped, but not as defenders. They were hyped as a total package, and both surpassed the hype. Do you honestly believe that Kobe lived up to his defensive reputation/hype after 2003? :biggums:

You have to play defense to earn a defensive reputation. Nobody was hyping 18 year Kobe Bryant as a defensive prodigy. Kobe's all defensive team awards are consistent with the award's voting history. Wade was injured too often. Ginobli was coming off the bench. Vince Carter, Ray Allen and Rip Hamilton were not holding anybody down. What other Shooting Guards were out there?

[ImKobe]

So Kobe's defensive selections are based on "hype" and "media reputation", but Bird's 3 All Defensive 2nd Team Selections are all completely legit....? :confusedshrug:

No media hype/bias there...

And just look at Kobe's defense during his MVP year (2008) for the answer to your asinine question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VCVP9L25vk

Kobe was a great defender until injuries and mileage wore him down in 2011, people love to cite defensive metrics, but to this day there has been no real metric to actually judge player's individual defensive abilities, because you can only see it with your own eyes.

It's well known among the league that Kobe was always one of the best defensive wings during his athletic peak, we've all seen him lock down Lebron and Wade full court with those guys at their athletic primes, we've seen him shut down AI for an entire half and made him cry.

Kobe being an average/bad defender before 2013 is a huge myth created by his haters.

[tpols]

Longevity is overrated if it's spent chucking for mid 30s shooting percentages on lottery teams. If Magic had played until 36 and had the Lakers at like 20-62 a few seasons while being an embarrassment on the court... would that have enhanced his legacy?

Magic had his career cut extremely short. .

I wasn't even talking this year.. you can do 00-13.. which is still > 80-91 longevity wise.

Obviously magics career was cut short.. that's why he has worse longevity

[Brunch@Five]

You have to play defense to earn a defensive reputation. Nobody was hyping 18 year Kobe Bryant as a defensive prodigy. Kobe's all defensive team awards are consistent with the award's voting history. Wade was injured too often. Ginobli was coming off the bench. Vince Carter, Ray Allen and Rip Hamilton were not holding anybody down. What other Shooting Guards were out there?

the point is not whether Magic/Bird are better defenders than Kobe or Lebron (they're not). The point is that their individual defense and other factors that lead to them not receiving votes for All D teams (in terms of actual performance or hype) do not bear lots of weight when ranking them All-Time contra Kobe/Bron, because both Bird and Magic were complete packages that dominated the league for an entire decade before their bodies broke down.
It is not like we're comparing them to absolute difference makers on defense like Payton, Pippen and MJ were for an extended period of time, whereas Kobe clearly was not, probably post three-peat (he certainly wasn't from 2003 to 2007), and Bron only started to get an reputation in 2009/10.

[Showtime80']

Like I've said before, individual defense specially perimeter defense is EXTREMELY OVERRATED, why? Because ONE perimeter defender will NEVER consistently stop another good to great scorer, let alone and ENTIRE TEAM coaches will never put the best scorer even if he's good on defense on the other team's best scorer, anybody remember Phil Jackson yanking Michael away from Magic after the second quarter in game 2 of the 1991 Finals because he was having his way against Jordan? If we're talking about a great CENTER DEFENDER then that's another story because you can park his big behind in the middle and intimidate everybody coming down the lane (Hakeem, Robinson and young Ewing come to mind)

Magic had trouble with small quick guards, guess what? Every guy 6'9 230 will have trouble, hell Michael Jordan at 6'6 and possible the best ATHLETE of all times had a ton of trouble keeping up with guys like Isiah, Stockton, KJ, Mark Price, Dumars hell even John Starks took it to MJ a bunch of times.

What great perimeter defenders do is disrupt with their more limber movements, DISRUPTS NOT STOP! Michael was always a great so called individual defender but his team stank until they got two more bodies to move around with him in the perimeter and Bill Cartrwright in the middle.

The 80's Lakers had a great trapping defense specially in the early 80's when Pat would throw out there Coop, Wilkes, Magic and Nixon with Kareem in the middle. The Sixers in 1982 were dissected by that defense.

How many times did you see Kobe, Carter, McGrady and Iverson going against each other ON DEFENSE for 40+ minutes? NEVER! Different when the great centers of the past went at it that's for sure

Like the example I posted before, put Magic around 11 other scrubs and Jordan with 11 other scrubs against the 86's Celtics, would either Bird, Ainge or Dennis Johnson feel a distinct difference in pressure when comparing Jordan's or Magic's teams? Hell no! because it has always been about the pressure A TEAM puts on the other team, not ONE player. The Celtics would kill either team and those guys would ALL get their normal points.

A perimeter defender is NOTHING without help, ask how easy like was for Kobe with guys like Derek Fisher, Robert Horry, Rick Fox and the ultimate eraser Shaq in the middle for his "individual defense"

On offense, a great perimeter offensive player which Magic and Larry were can have a DRAMATIC impact as they showed for their entire careers

[Brunch@Five]

So Kobe's defensive selections are based on "hype" and "media reputation", but Bird's 3 All Defensive 2nd Team Selections are all completely legit....? :confusedshrug:

No media hype/bias there...

And just look at Kobe's defense during his MVP year (2008) for the answer to your asinine question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VCVP9L25vk

are you seriously posting a highlight video with weakside blocks as proof? :lol
Though I will admit that in 2008 he played his best defense in years - hence the league-wide recognition and MVP award

[Yao Ming's Foot]

the point is not whether Magic/Bird are better defenders than Kobe or Lebron (they're not). The point is that their individual defense and other factors that lead to them not receiving votes for All D teams (in terms of actual performance or hype) do not bear lots of weight when ranking them All-Time contra Kobe/Bron, because both Bird and Magic were complete packages that dominated the league for an entire decade before their bodies broke down.
It is not like we're comparing them to absolute difference makers on defense like Payton, Pippen and MJ were for an extended period of time, whereas Kobe clearly was not, probably post three-peat (he certainly wasn't from 2003 to 2007), and Bron only started to get an reputation in 2009/10.

If defense was 50% of the game then Duncan and Kobe were complete packages not Bird and Magic.

:confusedshrug:

[DonDadda59]

I wasn't even talking this year.. you can do 00-13.. which is still > 80-91 longevity wise.

In those 11 seasons the Lakers made the finals 9 times. Magic won 5 rings, 3 finals MVPs, 3 regular season MVPs. When Kareem retired, LA didn't skip a beat and were back in the finals a season later.

In those 13 seasons the Lakers made the finals 7 times. Bean won 5 rings, 2 finals MVPs, 1 regular season MVP. When Shaq left, the bottom fell out for LA.


Obviously magics career was cut short.. that's why he has worse longevity

So essentially all you have for Bean in terms of 'longevity' is him riding the bench and putting up 7 PPG in the beginning and then turning the Lakers into a lottery team and struggling to shoot 37% at the end of his career.

Very impressive. :lol

[Brunch@Five]

If defense was 50% of the game then Duncan and Kobe were complete packages not Bird and Magic.

:confusedshrug:

:coleman: I think I'm done

[IllegalD]

In those 11 seasons the Lakers made the finals 9 times. Magic won 5 rings, 3 finals MVPs, 3 regular season MVPs. When Kareem retired, LA didn't skip a beat and were back in the finals a season later.

In those 13 seasons the Lakers made the finals 7 times. Bean won 5 rings, 2 finals MVPs, 1 regular season MVP. When Shaq left, the bottom fell out for LA.



So essentially all you have for Bean in terms of 'longevity' is him riding the bench and putting up 7 PPG in the beginning and then turning the Lakers into a lottery team and struggling to shoot 37% at the end of his career.

Very impressive. :lol

So we gonna pretend like Magic's supporting cast post-Kareem isn't way better than Kobe's supporting cast the year right after Shaq left? :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:coleman: I think I'm done

You're done? You haven't made a single point yet. :confusedshrug:

[warriorfan]

I feel that out of all the top 10 players, Magic seemingly gets immunity to the criticisms the other all time greats face.

Kobe's first 3 titles are constantly dismissed because he played with Shaq, meanwhile this dude played with a consensus top 3 player of all time in his prime, someone who was also winning MVP's and Finals MVP's, yet how often are Magic's titles diminished for playing with Kareem?

That doesn't even include the other teammates Magic had like Worthy and Cooper, not to mention Riley as coach. Seriously, can you imagine if Bosh put up a 36/16/10 in Game 7 of the Finals and won Finals MVP? We would NEVER hear the end of it on ISH. Hell, Bosh didn't even score a single point in Game 7 of the Finals and people still talk about how stacked the Heat were.

Speaking of LeBron, you always hear about how weak the East is to try to diminish his achievements. Meanwhile the West in the '80's was arguably just as bad, but once again, this is never brought up or held against Magic. Seriously, check out the Lakers road to the Finals in '84, '85, and '87, and tell me when even LeBron faced competition as pathetic as that.

Before people take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to diminish Magic's career or achievements, I'm just pointing out how criticisms leveled at other players for almost literally the same kinds that could be held against Magic are almost never brought up



For one Kareem was 32 years old in '80. Not exactly the same as 27-29 year old Shaq who was partnered with Kobe during their stretch.


When Kareem went down with an injury during the finals in Magic's rookie season, Magic went out and played center and had what some say is the greatest post season performance of all time. See - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYNDWaEmqto


What would of happened with Kobe if Shaq got injured and couldn't play?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

For one Kareem was 32 years old in '80. Not exactly the same as 27-29 year old Shaq who was partnered with Kobe during their stretch.


When Kareem went down with an injury during the finals in Magic's rookie season, Magic went out and played center and had what some say is the greatest post season performance of all time. See - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYNDWaEmqto


What would of happened with Kobe if Shaq got injured and couldn't play?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVEgPqaApyo

[tpols]

In those 11 seasons the Lakers made the finals 9 times. Magic won 5 rings, 3 finals MVPs, 3 regular season MVPs. When Kareem retired, LA didn't skip a beat and were back in the finals a season later.

In those 13 seasons the Lakers made the finals 7 times. Bean won 5 rings, 2 finals MVPs, 1 regular season MVP. When Shaq left, the bottom fell out for LA.


Magic had great teams throughout his 11 years. Transitioned from prime Kareem to prime worthy with lots of depth and great coaching in a weak conference.

Kobe had 3 years at his peak with garbage rosters and played in a stacked west. 2 extra finals? Kobe would made the finals with Lamar odom as his pippen in the late 80s west.

Context needs to be applied here...




So essentially all you have for Bean in terms of 'longevity' is him riding the bench and putting up 7 PPG in the beginning and then turning the Lakers into a lottery team and struggling to shoot 37% at the end of his career.

Very impressive. :lol

I said 00-13 kobe vs 80-91 magic. There's no mention of Kobe's bench days.. and the start (00) and end (13) dates both resulted in playoff teams so.... yea.. all things considered kobe had better longevity by multiple years.

He had two less finals than magic, but played in a tougher conference and had less help in his span Which more than explain the small difference.

[sd3035]

Magic would be a solid role player in today's league

[dubeta]

Magic had great teams throughout his 11 years. Transitioned from prime Kareem to prime worthy with lots of depth and great coaching in a weak conference.

Kobe had 3 years at his peak with garbage rosters and played in a stacked west. 2 extra finals? Kobe would made the finals with Lamar odom as his pippen in the late 80s west.

Context needs to be applied here...




I said 00-13 kobe vs 80-91 magic. There's no mention of Kobe's bench days.. and the start (00) and end (13) dates both resulted in playoff teams so.... yea.. all things considered kobe had better longevity by multiple years.

Had two less finals ultimately, but played in a tougher conference and had less help in his span Which more than explain the small difference.


Except Kobe was irrelevant in 2005-2007 as well. I could also take away 2011 and 2012 as he clearly was subpar but I consider myself fair-minded so I just wont count 2005-2007

So thats only 10 years for Kobe compared to 11 for Magic, hmm I'd take Magic then, considering he was FAR more dominant in the playoffs than Kobe.

[warriorfan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVEgPqaApyo


Yeah...that is on par with Magic's 1980 game 6....









:yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy:

[Graviton]

Magic and Bird seem a little overrated because of their 80s rivalry, many have them in Top 5 but how can they be ahead of Shaq/Duncan when they either weren't as dominant, impactful on both ends or as accomplished. Only perimeter player that should be in Top 5 is Jordan, rest is reserved for big men that clearly have bigger impact on a team, like Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Wilt, Russell. :confusedshrug:

[tpols]

Except Kobe was irrelevant in 2005-2007 as well. I could also take away 2011 and 2012 as he clearly was subpar but I consider myself fair-minded so I just wont count 2005-2007

So thats only 10 years for Kobe compared to 11 for Magic, hmm I'd take Magic then, considering he was FAR more dominant in the playoffs than Kobe.

kobe was only irrelevant because his team sucked and he played in a strong conference.

Magic was never 'irrelevant' because he never had a shitty cast in a strong conference. He had the opposite in fact.. a strong cast in a weak coference. If you put magic in the 00s west with smush luke kwame and lamar as his squad battling duncan 60+ win teams dirk 60+ win teams nash 60+ win teams he is equally 'irrelevant' and we'd be not counting those years of his prime just as you haven't counted kobes.

If you put kobe in the 80s west to face a bunch of 30-40 something win teams he'd be the all time playoff scoring record holder and have 10+ finals appearances lmao

But carry on..

[Pointguard]

Like I've said before, individual defense specially perimeter defense is EXTREMELY OVERRATED, why? Because ONE perimeter defender will NEVER consistently stop another good to great scorer, let alone and ENTIRE TEAM coaches will never put the best scorer even if he's good on defense on the other team's best scorer, anybody remember Phil Jackson yanking Michael away from Magic after the second quarter in game 2 of the 1991 Finals because he was having his way against Jordan? If we're talking about a great CENTER DEFENDER then that's another story because you can park his big behind in the middle and intimidate everybody coming down the lane (Hakeem, Robinson and young Ewing come to mind)

Magic had trouble with small quick guards, guess what? Every guy 6'9 230 will have trouble, hell Michael Jordan at 6'6 and possible the best ATHLETE of all times had a ton of trouble keeping up with guys like Isiah, Stockton, KJ, Mark Price, Dumars hell even John Starks took it to MJ a bunch of times.

What great perimeter defenders do is disrupt with their more limber movements, DISRUPTS NOT STOP! Michael was always a great so called individual defender but his team stank until they got two more bodies to move around with him in the perimeter and Bill Cartrwright in the middle.

The 80's Lakers had a great trapping defense specially in the early 80's when Pat would throw out there Coop, Wilkes, Magic and Nixon with Kareem in the middle. The Sixers in 1982 were dissected by that defense.

How many times did you see Kobe, Carter, McGrady and Iverson going against each other ON DEFENSE for 40+ minutes? NEVER! Different when the great centers of the past went at it that's for sure

Like the example I posted before, put Magic around 11 other scrubs and Jordan with 11 other scrubs against the 86's Celtics, would either Bird, Ainge or Dennis Johnson feel a distinct difference in pressure when comparing Jordan's or Magic's teams? Hell no! because it has always been about the pressure A TEAM puts on the other team, not ONE player. The Celtics would kill either team and those guys would ALL get their normal points.

A perimeter defender is NOTHING without help, ask how easy like was for Kobe with guys like Derek Fisher, Robert Horry, Rick Fox and the ultimate eraser Shaq in the middle for his "individual defense"

On offense, a great perimeter offensive player which Magic and Larry were can have a DRAMATIC impact as they showed for their entire careers
This. But the biggest thing people are missing is that Magic controlled the game better than any player ever. Teams lost trying to play according to how Magic paced the table. Its not under offense, so its a defensive quality. A defensive quality that could have more impact than any center could ever have. Magic could get a team to play his game better than any player. Centers can't slow down the game, speed it up, highlight other players, get players on their heels like Magic could. He had a dimension to his game that no other top ten GOAT can claim near his level. And I can show you some startling defensive numbers due to Magic controlling tempo.

Magic would have ran SA into the ground like he did Boston. Lebron could only watch because he doesn't have that dimension to his game. Only Magic and (Nash if he had the team) can take a team game out of its team concept like that. A rim protector is good if you can slow a team down. You have more defensive options if you can slow a team down or have them playing on their heels. Magic wasn't a bad defender and in some situations was the best. And I got proof.

[Asukal]

Not an agenda driven question, I'm not here to irrationally hate on a basketball legend, but this is what I believe.

People frequently rank Magic in the top 5 all time of their GOAT lists. Some even believe that he's one of the few non-MJ players that can be legitimately argued for GOAT. I disagree.

Firstly, out of all of the consensus top 10 players (MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Bird Magic, Kobe, Hakeem, Lebron) Magic was by FAR the worst defender. In fact he was the only player on the aforementioned list who I'd call a complete net-negative on that side of the floor.

Additionally, he was drafted into possibly the most fortunate circumstances of any player in the top 10. He was lucky enough to share the floor with the best player in the league at the time, Kareem, who would actually win his sixth MVP during Magic's rookie year. It's arguable that Magic wasn't even the best player on the Lakers until '87, which would mean that Magic wasn't even the best player on his own team for the majority of his career.

Furthermore, I just don't believe Magic to be as talented as anyone else in the top 10, outside of maybe Russell. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to claim that he was some scrub who was carried by superior players. He was a very good scorer, good leader, a huge triple double threat, and an obviously an incredibly gifted passer. But even considering all of that, his talent still doesn't quite stack up to the other members of the top 10, at least IMO.


I would actually rank all of Duncan, Shaq, Bird, and Kobe over Magic.

Agree? Disagree?

:biggums: Stopped reading there.

[sportjames23]

I'm about thisclose to taking a cue ball upside OP's head for this bullshit.

[HOoopCityJones]

I'm about thisclose to taking a cue ball upside OP's head for this bullshit.

It's a legit argument though, what separates Duncan-Shaq-Kobe from Magic and Bird aside from nostalgia? You think if any of their peers like Dominique or Dr. J were as decorated as the three mentioned they wouldn't be in the convo for best of the 80's right there with Magic and Bird?

No one can make an argument without bias that Bird and Magic are still above Duncan Shaq and Kobe all time.

Bird was better than Shaq?

Magic was better than Kobe or Duncan? Can you honestly say so without a hint of doubt?

[Mrofir]

You're alone. Seems like a thread that was spawned due to boredom. Like hmmm, Magic Johnson. How can I wore a thread to say he was overrated without being attacked? :confusedshrug:



Every thread is created out of boredom, no?

Perhaps every single human behavior aside from sheer survival is an attempt to avoid boredom. Every single time you've ever even THOUGHT about basketball, much less watched it, played it, or posted about it, you've been doing so to keep yourself busy.

Are there threads on here that are just REALLY IMPORTANT...? Existential crisis much?

I don't understand the vitriol.

OP makes some reasonable points and is not alone. The same thoughts have crossed my mind before, I just assumed I was missing something since I wasn't actively watching basketball until the early 90s.

[dreamwarrior]

Watch the games. PGs back then weren't scorers so Magic didn't even have to guard them. He guarded PFs fine and has pretty good career 104 DRtg. Magic wouldn't play PG in this era but he'd probably put up the same amount of pts and get more rebounds.

[Deuce Bigalow]

In those 11 seasons the Lakers made the finals 9 times. Magic won 5 rings, 3 finals MVPs, 3 regular season MVPs. When Kareem retired, LA didn't skip a beat and were back in the finals a season later.

In those 13 seasons the Lakers made the finals 7 times. Bean won 5 rings, 2 finals MVPs, 1 regular season MVP. When Shaq left, the bottom fell out for LA.



So essentially all you have for Bean in terms of 'longevity' is him riding the bench and putting up 7 PPG in the beginning and then turning the Lakers into a lottery team and struggling to shoot 37% at the end of his career.

Very impressive. :lolhttp://bostonsportsu18.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/kobe-bryant.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/06/18/article-1287554-0A16B2D9000005DC-831_468x376.jpg

[Smoke117]

It always makes me chuckle about Magic and Bird (Magic mostly) complaining about how Jordan would get all the calls when Magic got some of the most bullshit calls ever during his career. You couldn't breathe on this guy without being called for a foul. Magic in the 1990 season: 14.4 shot attempts to 8.1 fta's. Harden this season: 18.1 shot attempts to 10.2 fta's. Yet you idiots all make a lot of noise about Harden, but why not Magic? Probably because most of you are too young to even know what the **** I'm talking about. I remember my dad getting angry at all the bullshit calls Magic would get...lol. This guy was gifted by the refs with the best of them.

[Pointguard]

It always makes me chuckle about Magic and Bird (Magic mostly) complaining about how Jordan would get all the calls when Magic got some of the most bullshit calls ever during his career. You couldn't breathe on this guy without being called for a foul. Magic in the 1990 season: 14.4 shot attempts to 8.1 fta's. Harden this season: 18.1 shot attempts to 10.2 fta's. Yet you idiots all make a lot of noise about Harden, but why not Magic? Probably because most of you are too young to even know what the **** I'm talking about. I remember my dad getting angry at all the bullshit calls Magic would get...lol. This guy was gifted by the refs with the best of them.
I can't believe people try to manipulate things they never saw. If you saw Magic play there is no way you could say this nonsense. He was light years smarter than Harden. Knew how use his body as a rookie. Only took shots when he had his defender totally compromised on the break where most fouls happen or when he deep posted on a smaller guy. Magic's whole game was compromising the other team's defender. He was one of the greatest mix matches in the game ever. Nobody has used size and speed better in the game. He used his body to spin off of players. So he had a lot of contact on most plays. He kept teams on their heels... pushed the issue. He got to 8 fta once in his career. Why in the world would your Dad constantly be getting upset over a superstar who averaged three foul trips to the line a game, WTF. Dad was a hater, guy.

[KevinNYC]

(The lack of defense things is also brushed off when it comes to measuring Larry Bird's GOATness)
Well that's cause it wasn't a lack. If you go back and look at Bird in the playoffs before he injured his back, you don't seem teams isolating on him to take advantage of his lack of defense. Because they would lose. When he was getting called the best all-around player in the game, coaches specifically pointed out his defense. Bird went 16-22 and scored 37 points against the Knicks and when they interviewed Knicks coach Hubie Brown he said we lost because of Larry Bird's defense that he was the key to the Knicks defense.

I think sometimes people rank players like a scouting report. Does it matter than Larry Bird could shoot better with his left hand than Shaq? No, Shaq did what worked for him. Bird did what worked for him, what was his impact. Bird was not a great one on one perimeter defender. However, he was a great defender. Yes, he often guarded the power forward and not the small forward. And? He would then disrupt the offense from weak side and do the things that Maxwell or McHale could never do.

Here's a reel from the fourth quarter of the 1985 Finals, game 4 that shows lot of the flow of the game. Bird was all over the place on defense. He just had an uncanny sense of where the ball was going to go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAh5iehk0hc

[24-Inch_Chrome]

I have Duncan over Magic in the 5 spot. Duncan, Shaq, and Magic make up my second tier but I consistently rank Duncan over Magic and sometimes bump Shaq up there over him as well.

[KevinNYC]

I can't believe people try to manipulate things they never saw. If you saw Magic play there is no way you could say this nonsense. He was light years smarter than Harden. Knew how use his body as a rookie. Only took shots when he had his defender totally compromised on the break where most fouls happen or when he deep posted on a smaller guy. Magic's whole game was compromising the other team's defender. He was one of the greatest mix matches in the game ever. Nobody has used size and speed better in the game. He used his body to spin off of players. So he had a lot of contact on most plays. He kept teams on their heels... pushed the issue. He got to 8 fta once in his career. Why in the world would your Dad constantly be getting upset over a superstar who averaged three foul trips to the line a game, WTF. Dad was a hater, guy.
I think this is why Magic's impact is a notch above Bird, even though I think Bird was a more complete, all-around player. A 6'8" point guard who can drive the lane was a nightmare to handle for most teams. Much more so, that a 6'9" small forward who could play both inside and out. Bird was a nightmare matchup for teams because most the guys with size couldn't cover him outside and most of guys quick enough to cover him, he could either shoot over and take them straight into the post.

However, with Magic, when that team was rolling he got high percentage shots for his whole team. You had to sprint back on defense and you had to stop the ball early or else he was going straight to the rack. The lowest FG% his team shot was like 48% during his first run. For many years his team was above 50% from the field. And they went to Finals that year they shot 48%.

[Pointguard]

Magic won the most in the most competitive era. The only era that had five super dynasties/champions. His ratio of great years is superior. Magic manipulated the whole game much better than any of the top ten GOATs. . Magic won against three great defensive teams. He was the games best team player.

[Smoke117]

I think this is why Magic's impact is a notch above Bird, even though I think Bird was a more complete, all-around player. A 6'8" point guard who can drive the lane was a nightmare to handle for most teams. Much more so, that a 6'9" small forward who could play both inside and out. Bird was a nightmare matchup for teams because most the guys with size couldn't cover him outside and most of guys quick enough to cover him, he could either shoot over and take them straight into the post.

However, with Magic, when that team was rolling he got high percentage shots for his whole team. You had to sprint back on defense and you had to stop the ball early or else he was going straight to the rack. The lowest FG% his team shot was like 48% during his first run. For many years his team was above 50% from the field. And they went to Finals that year they shot 48%.

i'm inherently a Bird guy...so I stopped there. But that's why we have forums, no? Differing opinions.

[KevinNYC]

i'm inherently a Bird guy...so I stopped there. But that's why we have forums, no? Differing opinions.Well that's probably an opinion I reached after they stopped playing because I was Celtics fan as a kid.

[Pointguard]

I think this is why Magic's impact is a notch above Bird, even though I think Bird was a more complete, all-around player. A 6'8" point guard who can drive the lane was a nightmare to handle for most teams. Much more so, that a 6'9" small forward who could play both inside and out. Bird was a nightmare matchup for teams because most the guys with size couldn't cover him outside and most of guys quick enough to cover him, he could either shoot over and take them straight into the post.

However, with Magic, when that team was rolling he got high percentage shots for his whole team. You had to sprint back on defense and you had to stop the ball early or else he was going straight to the rack. The lowest FG% his team shot was like 48% during his first run. For many years his team was above 50% from the field. And they went to Finals that year they shot 48%.
Agreed Kev.

Another thing they don't get recognition for is that they were the only players that you can say their smarts was always affecting the game. True guys playing chess out there.

[Smoke117]

I can't believe people try to manipulate things they never saw. If you saw Magic play there is no way you could say this nonsense. He was light years smarter than Harden. Knew how use his body as a rookie. Only took shots when he had his defender totally compromised on the break where most fouls happen or when he deep posted on a smaller guy. Magic's whole game was compromising the other team's defender. He was one of the greatest mix matches in the game ever. Nobody has used size and speed better in the game. He used his body to spin off of players. So he had a lot of contact on most plays. He kept teams on their heels... pushed the issue. He got to 8 fta once in his career. Why in the world would your Dad constantly be getting upset over a superstar who averaged three foul trips to the line a game, WTF. Dad was a hater, guy.

:kobe:

[KevinNYC]

Agreed Kev.

Another thing they don't get recognition for is that they were the only players that you can say their smarts was always affecting the game. True guys playing chess out there.
This is what I think people who don't understand Bird's impact on defense miss. When Bird was flowing, you had this feeling that he would impact every single play, no matter where the ball was, you would watch him on defense. I don't think anyone has ever saw the flow of the game better than Bird. He reminds me of Wayne Gretzky in that sense dominant without being a dominant athlete.

[knicksman]

well kareem was a 21 ppg before magic and contemplating retirement. While bran had bosh on 24 ppg and wade 26. Magic made a 47 win team to a 60 win team plus championship Bran made a 47 win team to 58 and losing in the finals. If bran could challenge as the GOAT then so is magic. Besides MVPs are overrated. Kareem only won 1 ring without Magic. And magic was a rookie while bran on his prime

[Pointguard]

:kobe:
Hey when our team is losing we sometimes see things. But on the real, Magic wasn't getting foul calls that made you scratch your head. Barkley would average double of what Magic did most years.

[Pointguard]

This is what I think people who don't understand Bird's impact on defense miss. When Bird was flowing, you had this feeling that he would impact every single play, no matter where the ball was, you would watch him on defense. I don't think anyone has ever saw the flow of the game better than Bird. He reminds me of Wayne Gretzky in that sense dominant without being a dominant athlete.
I recall several times when I knew Bird would transport himself in front of a pass. That game winning steal vs Detroit happened in my head before Bird stole the pass. He also would know the holes in the defense by the end of the game.

[KevinNYC]

I recall several times when I knew Bird would transport himself in front of a pass. That game winning steal vs Detroit happened in my head before Bird stole the pass. He also would know the holes in the defense by the end of the game.
If you watch that whole sequence due to how quickly that whole thing developed, I don't know if there's another player ever who could have made that play. Bird is still on the ground when the ref signals it's Boston ball. Jerry Sicthing is still two rows deep in the stands. There really seemed to be times when he saw things in slow motion.

[LAZERUSS]

What case would Magic have over Jordan? 3 more Finals appearances on a great team in a weak conference?

Magic never came close to a "losing" season, either. Hell, a 36 year old Magic, way-past-his-peak, out of shape, overweight, and disease-ridden, led a pathetic Laker team to a 22-10 record.

And Magic led his team to the Finals in NINE of his 12 prime seasons. And had he not been injured for much of the '81 season, he likely would have led them to not only the Finals, but most likely a title.

As for the "weak" Western Conference...how about this..

The Lakers POUNDED the '80 and '82 Sixers (hell, they won a clinching playoff game, in a rout, and on the road, with their second best player watching the game from his couch.) They wiped out the Celtics in '85 and '87 (and should have SWEPT them in '84.) And they beat the Pistons in '88 (and had they not been wiped out by injuries to Scott and then Magic in '89, who knows.)

And Magic led his 58-24 team to a romp over the 63-19 Blazers in his LAST season. A Portland team that would be in the Finals the very next year.

Oh, and before someone says that Magic never won a title withOUT Kareem. How about this? In the '88 post-season, Kareem was a shell. He was even worse in the Finals, and he was simply AWFUL in game seven of the Finals. That LA team could have won with Krusty the Clown playing center.

And I would argue that the '87 Lakers were so dominant that they could easily have given KAJ's minutes to Thompson and Green, and still ran away with the title.

Furthermore, in the '82 post-season, it was CLEARLY Magic who was LA's best player. In fact, McAdoo put up nearly identical numbers as Kareem did in the Finals, and on far less minutes. I suspect that the Lakers would have won a title without Kareem that year, as well. BTW, Kareem missed six games that year, and guess what,...the Lakers went 6-0 in them.

And again, in a clinching title game, on the road, and withOUT Kareem, Magic led them to a ROUT of the Sixers.

BTW, in their 10 years on the Lakers together, in the games Magic missed and Kareem played...the Lakers won .604 of them. In the games that Kareem missed, and Magic played...LA went .750!

[Hey Yo]

Magic never came close to a "losing" season, either. Hell, a 36 year old Magic, way-past-his-peak, out of shape, overweight, and disease-ridden, led a pathetic Laker team to a 22-10 record.

And Magic led his team to the Finals in NINE of his 12 prime seasons. And had he not been injured for much of the '81 season, he likely would have led them to not only the Finals, but most likely a title.

As for the "weak" Western Conference...how about this..

The Lakers POUNDED the '80 and '82 Sixers (hell, they won a clinching playoff game, in a rout, and on the road, with their second best player watching the game from his couch.) They wiped out the Celtics in '85 and '87 (and should have SWEPT them in '84.) And they beat the Pistons in '88 (and had they not been wiped out by injuries to Scott and then Magic in '89, who knows.)

And Magic led his 58-24 team to a romp over the 63-19 Blazers in his LAST season. A Portland team that would be in the Finals the very next year.

Oh, and before someone says that Magic never won a title withOUT Kareem. How about this? In the '88 post-season, Kareem was a shell. He was even worse in the Finals, and he was simply AWFUL in game seven of the Finals. That LA team could have won with Krusty the Clown playing center.

And I would argue that the '87 Lakers were so dominant that they could easily have given KAJ's minutes to Thompson and Green, and still ran away with the title.

Furthermore, in the '82 post-season, it was CLEARLY Magic who was LA's best player. In fact, McAdoo put up nearly identical numbers as Kareem did in the Finals, and on far less minutes. I suspect that the Lakers would have won a title without Kareem that year, as well. BTW, Kareem missed six games that year, and guess what,...the Lakers went 6-0 in them.

And again, in a clinching title game, on the road, and withOUT Kareem, Magic led them to a ROUT of the Sixers.

BTW, in their 10 years on the Lakers together, in the games Magic missed and Kareem played...the Lakers won .604 of them. In the games that Kareem missed, and Magic played...LA went .750!
The Lakers went 48-34 the year before Earvin came back. They basically had the same team from the year before. They were anything but "pathetic." Plus people still question whether he was ever "diseased-ridden" to begin with.


The rout was led by Earvin AND Jamaal Wilkes who poured in 37pts of his own.

[LAZERUSS]

The Lakers went 48-34 the year before Earvin came back. They basically had the same team from the year before. They were anything but "pathetic." Plus people still question whether he was ever "diseased-ridden" to begin with.


The rout was led by Earvin AND Jamaal Wilkes who poured in 37pts of his own.



Wilkes played well in that clinching game six win (without Kareem), but then again, he had MAGIC passing him the ball.

But it was MAGIC who dominated that game from start-to-finish. Not only did Magic hang a 42-15-7 game (on 14-23 from the field, and 14-14 from the line), but he controlled the PACE of that game. The Lakers came into that game averaging 108 ppg in that series. Instead of their usual "wait-until-Kareem-gets-down-the-floor" offense, Magic RAN the Sixers to death...in a 123-107 blowout win.

Players like Wilkes, Nixon, Worthy, and Scott were considerably better and more efficient in their careers when they played alongside Magic, than without him. And a past-his-prime Kareem was a FAR more efficient shooter with Magic than a PEAK Kareem had been without him.

[GimmeThat]

there's that story about him just gathering some players and beat an opposing team who somewhat disrespected him.

If you have a superstar thats good enough not needing to call time outs.


Whats so overrated about it.

[3ball]

If you look historically - a point guard has never won a championship while dominating his team's distribution of offensive win share (OWS).. Otoh, this is standard for NON-point guards (SG's thru Centers) - SG's thru Centers frequently win championships while dominating their team's offensive win share distribution.

But a point has never done it... They've never won a championship while having like, a 12 offensive win share while everyone else has less than 5.

Oh wait - the ONLY exception is Magic - and he did it twice (1985, 1987) - in both of these seasons, his OWS was very high, while all his teammates' OWS were much lower... Although MANY other point guards have tried to win this way (CP3, Nash, Stockton, etc.), ONLY Magic has succeeded.

The reason Magic accomplished this is because he was 6'9" and could physically overpower inside like he was a SG, SF, PF, or Center - as previously mentioned, it is STANDARD for SG's thru Centers to win championships while dominating their team's distribution of OWS, but NEVER for point guards (ball-dominators)... Except Magic... he played PG, but undertook all those other roles and could physically overpower inside unlike any point guard in history - Magic simply legitimately played all 5 positions.
.

[Hey Yo]

Wilkes played well in that clinching game six win (without Kareem), but then again, he had MAGIC passing him the ball.

But it was MAGIC who dominated that game from start-to-finish. Not only did Magic hang a 42-15-7 game (on 14-23 from the field, and 14-14 from the line), but he controlled the PACE of that game. The Lakers came into that game averaging 108 ppg in that series. Instead of their usual "wait-until-Kareem-gets-down-the-floor" offense, Magic RAN the Sixers to death...in a 123-107 blowout win.

Players like Wilkes, Nixon, Worthy, and Scott were considerably better and more efficient in their careers when they played alongside Magic, than without him. And a past-his-prime Kareem was a FAR more efficient shooter with Magic than a PEAK Kareem had been without him.
How could Magic be spoon feeding Wilkes if he allegedly played C the whole game in place of Kareem like most said he did?

I'm not denying he didn't dominate, but most leave out the part where Wilkes put up 37pts and grabbed 10 boards.


Jamaal “Silk” Wilkes outplayed Julius Erving in Game 6 with a career-high 37 points against Dr. J’s 27 to help the Lakers win the second title in franchise history. Game 6 was tied at the half, but the Lakers blew it open by scoring 14 straight points to start the 3rd quarter. Silk scored 16 points in the period and was the Lakers’ leading scorer until Magic passed him with some free throws when the 76ers started fouling at the end of the game. Wilkes also finished the game with 10 rebounds.

[Chadwin]

I have Duncan over Magic and Bird.

[LAZERUSS]

If you look historically - a point guard has never won a championship while dominating his team's distribution of offensive win share (OWS).. Otoh, this is standard for NON-point guards (SG's thru Centers) - SG's thru Centers frequently win championships while dominating their team's offensive win share distribution.

But a point has never done it... They've never won a championship while having like, a 12 offensive win share while everyone else has less than 5.

Oh wait - the ONLY exception is Magic - and he did it twice (1985, 1987) - in both of these seasons, his OWS was very high, while all his teammates' OWS were much lower... Although MANY other point guards have tried to win this way (CP3, Nash, Stockton, etc.), ONLY Magic has succeeded.

The reason Magic accomplished this is because he was 6'9" and could physically overpower inside like he was a SG, SF, PF, or Center - as previously mentioned, it is STANDARD for SG's thru Centers to win championships while dominating their team's distribution of OWS, but NEVER for point guards (ball-dominators)... Except Magic... he played PG, but undertook all those other roles and could physically overpower inside unlike any point guard in history - Magic simply legitimately played all 5 positions.
.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Hey Yo]

NBA record for most individual turnovers in the Finals

4-game series
24 - Magic Johnson, Los Angeles, 1983

6-game series
30 - Magic Johnson, Los Angeles, 1980

7-game series
31 - Magic Johnson, Los Angeles, 1984

http://www.nba.com/history/records/finals_series_turnovers.html


Most turnovers, individual, game:

10 - Magic Johnson, Los Angeles vs. Philadelphia, May 14, 1980

http://www.nba.com/history/records/finals_game_turnovers.html

[sportjames23]

If you look historically - a point guard has never won a championship while dominating his team's distribution of offensive win share (OWS).. Otoh, this is standard for NON-point guards (SG's thru Centers) - SG's thru Centers frequently win championships while dominating their team's offensive win share distribution.

But a point has never done it... They've never won a championship while having like, a 12 offensive win share while everyone else has less than 5.

Oh wait - the ONLY exception is Magic - and he did it twice (1985, 1987) - in both of these seasons, his OWS was very high, while all his teammates' OWS were much lower... Although MANY other point guards have tried to win this way (CP3, Nash, Stockton, etc.), ONLY Magic has succeeded.

The reason Magic accomplished this is because he was 6'9" and could physically overpower inside like he was a SG, SF, PF, or Center - as previously mentioned, it is STANDARD for SG's thru Centers to win championships while dominating their team's distribution of OWS, but NEVER for point guards (ball-dominators)... Except Magic... he played PG, but undertook all those other roles and could physically overpower inside unlike any point guard in history - Magic simply legitimately played all 5 positions.
.


B-bu-but Lebron doe!

[bizil]

I recall several times when I knew Bird would transport himself in front of a pass. That game winning steal vs Detroit happened in my head before Bird stole the pass. He also would know the holes in the defense by the end of the game.

Well said! The thing with Bird was the fact that he was a great team defender. I know many people don't really get that or realize it. As u stated, Bird would think two or three steps ahead of everybody else.

And even when guarding PF's, he was an All Defensive caliber player. The only hole in Bird's game was guarding quick SF's or swingmen. But he was always more of combo forward than a swingman anyway. So I don't hold that against him.

[bizil]

Magic won the most in the most competitive era. The only era that had five super dynasties/champions. His ratio of great years is superior. Magic manipulated the whole game much better than any of the top ten GOATs. . Magic won against three great defensive teams. He was the games best team player.

I agree! What made Magic special was his versatility and his thought process. Magic was a pass first player who ALSO had alpha dog scoring. That allows u to play puppet master PERFECTLY! While making others better and happy, he can dominate a game scoring at the drop of a hat! So YES it really allows u to manipulate a game. When u throw in Magic's versatility, it takes it to another level.

[LAZERUSS]

NBA record for most individual turnovers in the Finals

4-game series
24 - Magic Johnson, Los Angeles, 1983

6-game series
30 - Magic Johnson, Los Angeles, 1980

7-game series
31 - Magic Johnson, Los Angeles, 1984

http://www.nba.com/history/records/finals_series_turnovers.html


Most turnovers, individual, game:

10 - Magic Johnson, Los Angeles vs. Philadelphia, May 14, 1980

http://www.nba.com/history/records/finals_game_turnovers.html

NBA Finals records:




Most assists in a game
21 by Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers (vs. Boston Celtics) on June 3, 1984

Most assists in a half
14 by Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers (vs. Detroit Pistons) on June 19, 1988

Most assists in a quarter
8 by Bob Cousy, Boston Celtics (vs. St. Louis Hawks) on April 9, 1957
8 by Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers (vs. Boston Celtics) on June 3, 1984
8 by Robert Reid, Houston Rockets (vs. Boston Celtics) on June 5, 1986
8 by Michael Cooper and Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers (vs. Boston Celtics) on June 4, 1987
8 by Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers (at Detroit Pistons) on June 16, 1988
8 by Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers (vs. Detroit Pistons) on June 19, 1988
8 by John Stockton, Utah Jazz (at Chicago Bulls) on June 10, 1998

5-game series:


Most assists - 62 by Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers (vs. Chicago Bulls), 1991 (12.4 apg)


6-game series:




Most assists - 84 by Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers (vs. Boston Celtics), 1985 (14.0 apg)

Most steals - 16 by Julius Erving, Philadelphia 76ers (vs. Portland Trail Blazers), 1977; Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers (vs. Philadelphia 76ers), 1980; Larry Bird, Boston Celtics (vs. Houston Rockets), 1986; and Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat (vs. Dallas Mavericks), 2006




7-game series:


Most assists - 95 by Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers (vs. Boston Celtics), 1984 (13.6 apg)


Career:




Most assists
584 by Magic Johnson

Highest assists per game average (min. 10 games)
11.7 by Magic Johnson (50 games)

Most steals
102 by Magic Johnson

[MJistheGOAT]

NBA Finals records:



5-game series:




6-game series:




7-game series:




Career:

WHAT A ETHER!!!! EPIC

[3ball]

.
It's literally impossible that both Magic/Kareem are top 5 given their Finals record

One must get bumped down, and I think Magic gets bumped down beside lebron as fellow ball-dominators:


MJ
Bird
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Russell
Hakeem
Duncan
Kobe
Magic
Lebron

[light]

Not an agenda driven question, I'm not here to irrationally hate on a basketball legend, but this is what I believe.

People frequently rank Magic in the top 5 all time of their GOAT lists. Some even believe that he's one of the few non-MJ players that can be legitimately argued for GOAT. I disagree.

Firstly, out of all of the consensus top 10 players (MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Bird Magic, Kobe, Hakeem, Lebron) Magic was by FAR the worst defender. In fact he was the only player on the aforementioned list who I'd call a complete net-negative on that side of the floor.

Additionally, he was drafted into possibly the most fortunate circumstances of any player in the top 10. He was lucky enough to share the floor with the best player in the league at the time, Kareem, who would actually win his sixth MVP during Magic's rookie year. It's arguable that Magic wasn't even the best player on the Lakers until '87, which would mean that Magic wasn't even the best player on his own team for the majority of his career.

Furthermore, I just don't believe Magic to be as talented as anyone else in the top 10, outside of maybe Russell. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to claim that he was some scrub who was carried by superior players. He was a very good scorer, good leader, a huge triple double threat, and an obviously an incredibly gifted passer. But even considering all of that, his talent still doesn't quite stack up to the other members of the top 10, at least IMO.


I would actually rank all of Duncan, Shaq, Bird, and Kobe over Magic.

Agree? Disagree?

Look, everyone knows about Magic's defense and it has never mattered. Basically, Magic Johnson was so great that it didn't matter that he wasn't a good defender. Now ask yourself how good a player would have to be in order to still be considered top 5 all time while sucking at defense...

Magic was that good.

[Axe]

Why the unnecessary bump, 3ball?

[Bronbron23]

Not an agenda driven question, I'm not here to irrationally hate on a basketball legend, but this is what I believe.

People frequently rank Magic in the top 5 all time of their GOAT lists. Some even believe that he's one of the few non-MJ players that can be legitimately argued for GOAT. I disagree.

Firstly, out of all of the consensus top 10 players (MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Bird Magic, Kobe, Hakeem, Lebron) Magic was by FAR the worst defender. In fact he was the only player on the aforementioned list who I'd call a complete net-negative on that side of the floor.

Additionally, he was drafted into possibly the most fortunate circumstances of any player in the top 10. He was lucky enough to share the floor with the best player in the league at the time, Kareem, who would actually win his sixth MVP during Magic's rookie year. It's arguable that Magic wasn't even the best player on the Lakers until '87, which would mean that Magic wasn't even the best player on his own team for the majority of his career.

Furthermore, I just don't believe Magic to be as talented as anyone else in the top 10, outside of maybe Russell. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to claim that he was some scrub who was carried by superior players. He was a very good scorer, good leader, a huge triple double threat, and an obviously an incredibly gifted passer. But even considering all of that, his talent still doesn't quite stack up to the other members of the top 10, at least IMO.


I would actually rank all of Duncan, Shaq, Bird, and Kobe over Magic.

Agree? Disagree?

Nah he cemented himself in his first finals as a rookie when kareem went out. That was probably the most impressive game game ever when you consider the circumstance

[Stephonit]

Nah he cemented himself in his first finals as a rookie when kareem went out. That was probably the most impressive game game ever when you consider the circumstance

Jamaal Wilkes says hello.

[3ball]

Why the unnecessary bump, 3ball?

It's literally impossible that both Magic/Kareem are top 5 given their Finals record

One must get bumped down, and I think Magic gets bumped down beside lebron as fellow ball-dominator that limits team ceiling compared to guys like MJ or Bird who didn't dominate the ball

I have Magic and Lebron as borderline top 10, behind the non-ball-dominators (MJ/Bird), and the bigs (Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Duncan etc)

[Bronbron23]

Jamaal Wilkes says hello.

man i could say that about anyone though. Everyone had help. Magic as a rookie with the best player in the world hurt stepped up to the center position from a point gaurd and dropped 42 pts 12 reb and 7 assists in a huge finals game. If you can find me something more impressiv than that ill be shocked.

[Phoenix]

It's literally impossible that both Magic/Kareem are top 5 given their Finals record

One must get bumped down, and I think Magic gets bumped down beside lebron as fellow ball-dominator that limits team ceiling compared to guys like MJ or Bird who didn't dominate the ball

I have Magic and Lebron as borderline top 10, behind the non-ball-dominators (MJ/Bird), and the bigs (Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Duncan etc)

By that reasoning why do you have Kobe behind the bigs, wouldn't you have him in the same category with MJ and Bird?

[Carbine]

I'm continually baffled by 3ball when he says things like Magic must be bumped down because of his ball dominance limiting team cieiling.

Isn't the objective to win?

Doesn't he have 5 titles, the most of his era since entering and leaving the league?

[3ball]

man i could say that about anyone though. Everyone had help. Magic as a rookie with the best player in the world hurt stepped up to the center position from a point gaurd and dropped 42 pts 12 reb and 7 assists in a huge finals game. If you can find me something more impressiv than that ill be shocked.
Why were Kareem and Magic only 5-4 in Finals if they're both top 5?

It's impossible

So someone is overrated and I'll go with the ball-dominator

[Bronbron23]

Why were Kareem and Magic only 5-4 in Finals if they're both top 5?

It's impossible

So someone is overrated and I'll go with the ball-dominator

Dude you lie so muck kareem was done as a top 5 player after the 82 season. Why you mak8ng shit up?

[LAL]

Magic never came close to a "losing" season, either. Hell, a 36 year old Magic, way-past-his-peak, out of shape, overweight, and disease-ridden, led a pathetic Laker team to a 22-10 record.

And Magic led his team to the Finals in NINE of his 12 prime seasons. And had he not been injured for much of the '81 season, he likely would have led them to not only the Finals, but most likely a title.

As for the "weak" Western Conference...how about this..

The Lakers POUNDED the '80 and '82 Sixers (hell, they won a clinching playoff game, in a rout, and on the road, with their second best player watching the game from his couch.) They wiped out the Celtics in '85 and '87 (and should have SWEPT them in '84.) And they beat the Pistons in '88 (and had they not been wiped out by injuries to Scott and then Magic in '89, who knows.)

And Magic led his 58-24 team to a romp over the 63-19 Blazers in his LAST season. A Portland team that would be in the Finals the very next year.

Oh, and before someone says that Magic never won a title withOUT Kareem. How about this? In the '88 post-season, Kareem was a shell. He was even worse in the Finals, and he was simply AWFUL in game seven of the Finals. That LA team could have won with Krusty the Clown playing center.

And I would argue that the '87 Lakers were so dominant that they could easily have given KAJ's minutes to Thompson and Green, and still ran away with the title.

Furthermore, in the '82 post-season, it was CLEARLY Magic who was LA's best player. In fact, McAdoo put up nearly identical numbers as Kareem did in the Finals, and on far less minutes. I suspect that the Lakers would have won a title without Kareem that year, as well. BTW, Kareem missed six games that year, and guess what,...the Lakers went 6-0 in them.

And again, in a clinching title game, on the road, and withOUT Kareem, Magic led them to a ROUT of the Sixers.

BTW, in their 10 years on the Lakers together, in the games Magic missed and Kareem played...the Lakers won .604 of them. In the games that Kareem missed, and Magic played...LA went .750!

People become absolutely flabergasted when you rank Kobe over KAJ. Like i have to be more impressed with his mvp's, total points and plus minus cookies. To each his own.

[ShawkFactory]

People become absolutely flabergasted when you rank Kobe over KAJ. Like i have to be more impressed with his mvp's, total points and plus minus cookies. To each his own.

If you’re playing a pickup game (or even a series) with captains and everything and you have prime Kobe and prime KAJ, there are VERY few people who are picking Kobe first. You get the center who is unstoppable first. Always. Doesn’t really have anything to do with his career totals.

[FKAri]

Yes he is definitely overrated. Meanwhile Moses Malone, Bird, and even his teammates in Worthy and Kareem have become underrated

[32jazz]

Dude you lie so muck kareem was done as a top 5 player after the 82 season. Why you mak8ng shit up?

This. People seem to ignore that Kareem was 32 years old & 12 years older than Rookie Magic.

[Bronbron23]

This. People seem to ignore that Kareem was 32 years old & 12 years older than Rookie Magic.

Yeah man i dont know what dude is talking about. Kareem played against wilt for f*ck sakes so you know he was already around for awhile once magic came into the pictue.

[3ball]

By that reasoning why do you have Kobe behind the bigs, wouldn't you have him in the same category with MJ and Bird?

Yes Kobe is behind the bigs and ahead of magic/lebron... Kobe was somewhat ball-dominant too, but he was elite in other areas as well

My list is: Jordan, Bird, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Russell, Hakeem, Duncan, Kobe, Magic, Lebron

[Axe]

Dude you lie so muck kareem was done as a top 5 player after the 82 season. Why you mak8ng shit up?
Lmao