How come Duncan won throughout his career, MJ didn't make a finals till year seven??

[Akrazotile]

We gon' call MJ the GOAT when he literally couldn't get a team to the finals in his first seven years in the league? It aint like he came right out of high school. He played three years in college. The GOAT couldn't get to the finals till he was 28 years old and paired with Pippen and PJax??

We give MJ credit for a high concentration of chips in a certain time, but then people will downgrade Shaq for lacking longevity. Wassup with that? If we judge the elite by team success, MJ had pretty poor longevity.

He couldn't make a finals till he was 28. He also quit playing basketball for two years still in his prime.

And we gonna call this the GOAT career?


I'm just saying, it's suspect. That's all. It's a little suspect.

[SouBeachTalents]

Probably for similar reasons LeBron didn't win a title until his 9th season

[Akrazotile]

Probably for similar reasons LeBron didn't win a title until his 9th season


How old was he when he carried a roster that would have been drafting first without him to a finals?

[Levity]

Jeff, how much are you paying these guys to these make recycled threads over and over again, in hopes of bringing the hits?

[SouBeachTalents]

How old was he when he carried a roster that would have been drafting first without him to a finals?

Was he facing Bird's Celtics or the Bad Boy Pistons during that run?

[Akrazotile]

Jeff, how much are you paying these guys to these make recycled threads over and over again, in hopes of bringing the hits?


I can't divulge exact figures, but trust me its a pittance.


I deserve a raise.

[Akrazotile]

Was he facing Bird's Celtics or the Bad Boy Pistons during that run?


As a matter of fact he WAS facing title winning Pistons and Celtics teams.


Obviously he wasn't facing the same specific teams that Jordan did, since, those players were mostly retired by the time he got to the league.

[SouBeachTalents]

As a matter of fact he WAS facing title winning Pistons and Celtics teams.


Obviously he wasn't facing the same specific teams that Jordan did, since, those players were mostly retired by the time he got to the league.

In '07? The Pistons were 3 years past their previous title, while the Cetlics Big 3 hadn't even been formed yet

[GOBB]

Jeff, how much are you paying these guys to these make recycled threads over and over again, in hopes of bringing the hits?

Seriously.

[Rose'sACL]

Jordan faced better teams than lebron did in first round but that is on jordan too. People think that EAST in the 80s was like today's west when that is not even close to being true. East in the 80s was even as bad as the West in the 80s for a couple of years when both conferences were just top heavy.

[Akrazotile]

Duncan > MJ

#dealwithit

[Angel Face]

Stacked teams of the east that if you compare it to the eastern conference today, today's east would be a joke. Also his team mates was still maturing ie. Pippen and Grant and of course the Bad Boys making the Bulls their punching bag 3 years in a row. In 1990, they had a chance against the Bad Boys but Pip bothered by his migraine and the others didn't show up. It was MJ vs Pistons game 7. After Pippen matured and became the Pippen the we know today, it was game over for the league. 6/6 happened.

[MJistheGOAT]

Jeff, how much are you paying these guys to these make recycled threads over and over again, in hopes of bringing the hits?

This
/thread

[nba_55]

Stacked teams of the east that if you compare it to the eastern conference today, today's east would be a joke. Also his team mates was still maturing ie. Pippen and Grant and of course the Bad Boys making the Bulls their punching bag 3 years in a row. In 1990, they had a chance against the Bad Boys but Pip bothered by his migraine and the others didn't show up. It was MJ vs Pistons game 7. After Pippen matured and became the Pippen the we know today, it was game over for the league. 6/6 happened.

If he won more games, he wouldn't have to face those teams, it's on him if they won subpar 38 games. NO EXCUSES

[97 bulls]

If he won more games, he wouldn't have to face those teams, it's on him if they won subpar 38 games. NO EXCUSES
He and the Bulls would've had to face them eventually. But in all honesty, his teammates just weren't good enough. He literally went 1/5 vs the Celtics.

[DonDadda59]

:biggums:

Duncan was drafted by what was essentially a 59-62 win team and perennial contender. Bulls were a 28 win team with no all time greats already on the pay roll.

[ImKobe]

did MJ have Pop and D-Rob(who was 2 years removed from his MVP season) right from the jump?

No?

there you have it.

[jzek]

When Duncan joined the Spurs, they were already a great team - league leaders in wins, reached the conference finals, etc.

It's not like Timmy joined a perennial lottery team and instantly transformed them into contenders. :facepalm

[warriorfan]

I can't divulge exact figures, but trust me its a pittance.


I deserve a raise.



This is the truth, can we get this man out of Target T's plz?

[Akrazotile]

:biggums:

Duncan was drafted by what was essentially a 59-62 win team and perennial contender. Bulls were a 28 win team with no all time greats already on the pay roll.


Nah nah nah. On this board we measure GOAT status by team achievement and longevity.

Duncan has been taking teams to the finals over his entire 18 year career. Start to finish.

I mean, Shaq gets downgraded for a short peak, right? Dude's peak was top 3 MINIMUM, but nobody has him in the top 3 or GOAT. But his peak definitely was.

Jordan's peak was much, much shorter than Duncan's and he only has 1 more ring. Jordan abandoned his team for two years in the middle of his career.


Let's be real. With the criteria ISH uses on a regular basis to rank guys, Duncan >>> MJ.

[Akrazotile]

This is the truth, can we get this man out of Target T's plz?


Scoreboard :oldlol:

[warriorfan]

Scoreboard :oldlol:


chubby pasty failed actor that looks like rosie odonald and wears target t's



that's what I call lighting up the scoreboard

[Akrazotile]

chubby pasty failed actor that looks like rosie odonald and wears target t's




Amazing to think about how that is enough to make you jealous of my life :oldlol:

That's a baaaad look for you to be bitterly stalking THAT guy.

[sportjames23]

We gon' call MJ the GOAT when he literally couldn't get a team to the finals in his first seven years in the league? It aint like he came right out of high school. He played three years in college. The GOAT couldn't get to the finals till he was 28 years old and paired with Pippen and PJax??

We give MJ credit for a high concentration of chips in a certain time, but then people will downgrade Shaq for lacking longevity. Wassup with that? If we judge the elite by team success, MJ had pretty poor longevity.

He couldn't make a finals till he was 28. He also quit playing basketball for two years still in his prime.

And we gonna call this the GOAT career?


I'm just saying, it's suspect. That's all. It's a little suspect.


Duncan only had to worry about the Lakers in the West (and before Phil came, the Lakers wasted their talent losing to the Jazz and Spurs from 1997 to 1999).

MJ and the Bulls had to deal with Bird's Celtics, a freaking good Bucks team and the Bad Boy Pistons, while fending off Ewing's Knicks, Barkley's Sixers, a damn good Cavs team and Nique's Hawks.

Now, who had the tougher road, OP?

I'm saying your knowledge of NBA history is suspect. That's all. Just a little suspect.

[warriorfan]

Amazing to think about how that is enough to make you jealous of my life :oldlol:

That's a baaaad look for you to be bitterly stalking THAT guy.



Making fun of ur Target T's ≠ Stalking



:facepalm

[Sarcastic]

Nah nah nah. On this board we measure GOAT status by team achievement and longevity.

Duncan has been taking teams to the finals over his entire 18 year career. Start to finish.

I mean, Shaq gets downgraded for a short peak, right? Dude's peak was top 3 MINIMUM, but nobody has him in the top 3 or GOAT. But his peak definitely was.

Jordan's peak was much, much shorter than Duncan's and he only has 1 more ring. Jordan abandoned his team for two years in the middle of his career.


Let's be real. With the criteria ISH uses on a regular basis to rank guys, Duncan >>> MJ.


No it's not. Jordan's peak is just as long, and about 10 times more dominant than Duncan's peak. Duncan's peak ended a long time ago. Just because his team is still winning, does not mean that he is still in his prime nor his peak.

[ClipperRevival]

Because winning right away like Duncan or Magic did is the exception and not the rule for greats. Most greats have to make a steady climb up the mountain and suffer several failures before succeeding.

You won't believe this but at one point, MJ was seen as just a great individual talent who couldn't win. Magic and Bird won rings and were great team players while MJ was the best individual talent. So people always questioned how great he really was.

He suffered many failures at the hands of the Pistons. And frankly, he didn't have much help early in his career. Pip and Grant came aboard a few years into his career and they didn't mature until about 1990 to 1991. And that's when they were making deeper runs in the playoffs. Eventually, they took down Detroit in 1991. And fittingly, beating the guy who many said he couldn't be in Magic and be a winner.

So in some sense, his climb up the mountain makes it somewhat more impressive because it showed that he wasn't perfect from the get go, at least in terms of team accomplishments. But humans love people who can overcome adversity. And MJ did that. But once MJ found out how to win, no one beat him.

[plowking]

Duncan was drafted to a 55 win team already. Maybe that has something to do with it?

[Akrazotile]

Duncan was drafted to a 55 win team already. Maybe that has something to do with it?


So why the double standard?

Guys like Bill Russell and Kobe Bryant get ranked ahead of better actual players based on team achievement.

But when we're comparing consistency between MJ and Duncan suddenly we need to look at who played with what caliber of teammates?

[Akrazotile]

M
No it's not. Jordan's peak is just as long, and about 10 times more dominant than Duncan's peak. Duncan's peak ended a long time ago. Just because his team is still winning, does not mean that he is still in his prime nor his peak.


Uhh, outside of a six year stretch (as an active player) he never reached the finals.


Why do they play bro? Why are the games played? How can you talk about this man's peak being as long as duncans when he only made the finals in a six year window??

Jordan peak wasnt even as long as Shaq's peak. The point of the game is to win. You're only good enough to make a finals for six years of your career and we call that the GOAT? Thats a HORRIBLE peak compared to other greats.

Team achievement. Its that simple. If youre gonna use it, be consistent about it.

[Cali Syndicate]

How old was he when he carried a roster that would have been drafting first without him to a finals?

Mj had to run through Bird's Celtics and the bad boy pistons....Lebron against who again? Yeah,not the same...

[Sarcastic]

M


Uhh, outside of a six year stretch (as an active player) he never reached the finals.


Why do they play bro? Why are the games played? How can you talk about this man's peak being as long as duncans when he only made the finals in a six year window??

Jordan peak wasnt even as long as Shaq's peak. The point of the game is to win. You're only good enough to make a finals for six years of your career and we call that the GOAT? Thats a HORRIBLE peak compared to other greats.

Team achievement. Its that simple. If youre gonna use it, be consistent about it.


The problem with your line of reasoning is that you think a player's peak = years they make the finals.

[plowking]

So why the double standard?

Guys like Bill Russell and Kobe Bryant get ranked ahead of better actual players based on team achievement.

But when we're comparing consistency between MJ and Duncan suddenly we need to look at who played with what caliber of teammates?

Use your own judgement. You don't have to agree with anyone.

I for one, don't think Duncan is as good a basketball player as MJ.

[Akrazotile]

Use your own judgement. You don't have to agree with anyone.

I for one, don't think Duncan is as good a basketball player as MJ.

I agree. I'm just pointing out to ringtards how arbitrary and retarded it is to use team achievements as a crutch to rank guys.

[sportjames23]

I agree. I'm just pointing out to ringtards how arbitrary and retarded it is to use team achievements as a crutch to rank guys.


http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/mjlol.png

[TheBigVeto]

Duncan didn't have to play against Larry Bird

[tontoz]

OP obviously has never heard of David Robinson. If Jordan was drafted by a team that already had DRob methinks he might have had more success early in his career.

Cringeworthy thread.

[kurple]

getting to the finals doesnt say much. winning in the finals on the other hand


6/6

[Asukal]

I agree. I'm just pointing out to ringtards how arbitrary and retarded it is to use team achievements as a crutch to rank guys.

Just because 2/5? :whatever:

[DMV2]

As a matter of fact he WAS facing title winning Pistons and Celtics teams.


Obviously he wasn't facing the same specific teams that Jordan did, since, those players were mostly retired by the time he got to the league.
80's Celtics and Pistons were dynasty teams. Jordan had Oakley for one season and a bunch of no-names until Phil and Pippen.

[ZMonkey11]

Let's unfocus off Jordan and focus on Duncan.

What did Duncan have right off the bat?

1) Possibly the greatest coach of all-time.
2) A member of the Dream Team and arguably the most athletic center to ever play basketball
3) A roster full of good role players.
4) The weak ass East.


Stop man...just stop. You are hurting your mom's feelings when you do this. You are better than this. She raised you better than this.

[DMV2]

1) Possibly the greatest coach of all-time.
But Pop didn't really become Pop until like 2007.

No way Spurs win without Duncan in 99 or 03.

[IMObjective]

I can't divulge exact figures, but trust me its a pittance.


I deserve a raise.
The concept of this guy getting paid for his posts....

http://nbatitlechase.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/gregg-popovich-laughing-gif.gif

[Akrazotile]

Folks, Duncan> MJ ok let's at least TRY to deal with it.


With MJ you have about a six year window to win.
With Duncan you have a 20 year window.

[Optimus Prime]

The 80's Celtics, regarded by some as one of the best teams ever assembled. The Bad Boys Pistons. The fact that the Bulls kind of sucked until Pippen and Phil came along and things all fell into place.

Yet young MJ still put up 63 on one of the best teams ever in the playoffs in the Garden.

MJ :bowdown:

LeBeta stans are an embarrassment. Learn the history of the game you claim to know instead of worshiping one (overrated) player.

:kobe:

[pauk]

Are you aware this is a team game and not 1on1? Ever heard about supporting cast, something if bad enough can bottleneck even the greatest talent to ever touch mother nature (Jordan) from reaching a Finals, meanwhile if good enough boost a far lesser player (Duncan) to reach Finals all the time?

Just checking.... just in case... just want to make sure you are talking about basketball and not tennis... if this was like tennis (1on1) Jordan would had a championship almost every single year he played.... Duncan would have 0 and be completely forgotten....

[kamil]

Probably for similar reasons LeBron didn't win a title until his 9th season

When did MJ bail on a city and collude with two other all-stars? I don't remember that happening.

[r15mohd]

When did MJ bail on a city and collude with two other all-stars? I don't remember that happening.


ISH...where playing out your contract terms means "bailing" on your city :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DJ Leon Smith]

Are you aware this is a team game and not 1on1? Ever heard about supporting cast, something if bad enough can bottleneck even the greatest talent to ever touch mother nature (Jordan) from reaching a Finals, meanwhile if good enough boost a far lesser player (Duncan) to reach Finals all the time?

Just checking.... just in case... just want to make sure you are talking about basketball and not tennis... if this was like tennis (1on1) Jordan would had a championship almost every single year he played.... Duncan would have 0 and be completely forgotten....

Is this scenario what tennis player is Jason Terry ass raping LeBron and who is LeBron James taking it with pride from the Mavericks? While giving D.Wade a reacharound. Is it Terry again or is Marion gagging his throat? On the way to a 4-2 loss.

And what homsexual ass sucker is your father? Is it Peter North in his early career or is it Magic Johnson with AIDS making love to your mother? No offence intended of course.

[oarabbus]

Because Duncan > Jordan

[Akrazotile]

Is this scenario what tennis player is Jason Terry ass raping LeBron and who is LeBron James taking it with pride from the Mavericks? While giving D.Wade a reacharound. Is it Terry again or is Marion gagging his throat? On the way to a 4-2 loss.

And what homsexual ass sucker is your father? Is it Peter North in his early career or is it Magic Johnson with AIDS making love to your mother? No offence intended of course.



Hey man, I appreciate your input into the thread and everything, but can you do me a favor and clean up the language a little bit? This forum is generally intended to be PG.

Thanks a lot, my brother. You da man! *fistbump*

[plowking]

getting to the finals doesnt say much. winning in the finals on the other hand


6/6

I don't know if you're trolling, but you're stupid.

[Lebron23]

I don't know if you're trolling, but you're stupid.


I agree.

[Solefade]

If he won more games, he wouldn't have to face those teams, it's on him if they won subpar 38 games. NO EXCUSES


this is a pretty good point and it's being ignored..i know the east wasn't that good back then with the exception of sixers/celtics/pistons...why didn't he win one more games to get an easier first round matchup then?

[funnystuff]

I don't know if you're trolling, but you're stupid.
lol

[TheMan]

this is a pretty good point and it's being ignored..i know the east wasn't that good back then with the exception of sixers/celtics/pistons...why didn't he win one more games to get an easier first round matchup then?
:facepalm That roster was junk outside of Jordan. Even if they win 10 more games, they still were not getting past those Celtics, so what's the difference if the Bulls were gonna get handled in the first, second or third round :confusedshrug:

[Solefade]

:facepalm That roster was junk outside of Jordan. Even if they win 10 more games, they still were not getting past those Celtics, so what's the difference if the Bulls were gonna get handled in the first, second or third round :confusedshrug:

if you're that good, you should have no problem carrying your team out of the first round in a weak conference no matter how shitty your team is right? :confusedshrug:

[TheMan]

if you're that good, you should have no problem carrying your team out of the first round in a weak conference no matter how shitty your team is right? :confusedshrug:
:facepalm
Come on bro, it's the 86 Celtics were talking about, easily a top 3 GOAT team if not the GOAT team. Put it this way, add prime LeBron to MJ's 86 Bulls and they are still not getting past the Celtics, they would still be undermanned. This was Bird, McHale, Parish, DJ, Ainge, Walton...:rolleyes:

Again who gives a **** what round they'd face those Celtics? They weren't going to get past them, LBJs 07 Cavs would get destroyed by those Celtics :facepalm

[poido123]

Early Bulls team with Jordan had very little.


Early Spurs team with Duncan had a lot.


/thread.

[Roundball_Rock]

:coleman:

MJ won 6 times and was at least in the ECF 8 times in 15 years (and we know the last two years were throwaway years in D.C.). How is that a bad batting average??? MJ was contending from 1989-1993, 1996-1998 and we know if he did not retire Chicago would have won it all in 94' and would have made the ECF in 95' (they would lose to Orlando without a PF imo but would not face Orlando until the ECF since the Bulls would be a #1 or #2 seed versus a #4 seed).

[Marchesk]

How come Russell got the finals throughout his career, Duncan only made it 1/3 of the time?

[bobopenguin]

How come Russell got the finals throughout his career, Duncan only made it 1/3 of the time?

howcome Sun Yue got finals throughout his career, and won a championship. while russell only made the final once?
:lol