Kawhi Leonard vs Scottie Pippen

[DFish24]

Who you got? I'll go with Leonard. Kawhi is the better scorer, rebounder and more clutch(FMVP against Bran). Defense is roughly equal. Scottie does have a slight edge as a playmaker tho. Thoughts?

[Cold soul]

Scottie Pippen pretty easily.

[ShawkFactory]

Playmaking playmaking playmaking

[Smoke117]

Who you got? I'll go with Leonard. Kawhi is the better scorer, rebounder and more clutch(FMVP against Bran). Defense is roughly equal. Scottie does have a slight edge as a playmaker tho. Thoughts?

lol...how do you figure that? And Scottie has a "slight edge as a playmaker"? :roll: :roll: :roll: Scottie's 1990 season is better than Kawhi's ever been and that has his "migraine game" and isn't even considered part of his prime.

[dubeta]

One has more rings than Kobe

The other will end up with more FMVP's than Kobe

[Bigsmoke]

Pippen the better passer.

[Lebron23]

Scottie Pippen Finals Stats from 1991 to 1993.


1991 - 20.8 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 6.6 apg, 2.4 spg, 45.3 FG%

1992 - 20.8 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 7.7 apg, 1.5 spg, 48.4 FG%

1993 - 20.8 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 7.7 apg, 2.0 spg, 44 FG%

[r0drig0lac]

Kawhi is a better player than the 23 Pippen at the same age, but with two more seasons. I believe it would be even better defensively with hand check, which is scary

[Angel Face]

We comparing Leonard to Pip now? Pip is better at every aspect. Scoring, defense, playmaking, etc. Remember that he lead the Bulls to 55 wins and semis in '94 without the GOAT. Leonard is a system player. I don't think he can do what Pip did.

Greatest sidekick of all time > glorified role player.

[T_L_P]

Troll thread.

[navy]

Scottie Pippen Finals Stats from 1991 to 1993.


1991 - 20.8 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 6.6 apg, 2.4 spg, 45.3 FG%

1992 - 20.8 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 7.7 apg, 1.5 spg, 48.4 FG%

1993 - 20.8 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 7.7 apg, 2.0 spg, 44 FG%
How soon they forget.

[Smoke117]

I bet Scottie wishes he could have played during this era...the way Leonard gets overrated? He would be considered a top 3-5 player for the majority of his entire career in this era.

[nzahir]

Stop it, please. Pippen
Maybe things change when we see kawhi average 23 points or a bit more, get his boards still, and get like 6-7 assists.
Kawhi is getting very overrated by some people
18 6 and 2 assists, 1.6 steals. 60% was very good but didnt shoot much. These were his final stats, good stats but not a superstar, not even an all star on offense(yet); but his defense makes him an all star.
Top 5 sf for sure, arguable top 3
1.bron
2.kd
Melo, george, kawhi are all after, some times melo can be #3 and sometimes #5. I have to see george next year but I still have him above kawhi if he comes back like before because he can be the#1 option I think especially because of his defense as well.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Just about everyone in this thread has answered properly, so I won't bother.

But here's a question

Is there anything that Leonard does better than prime Pippen?

[Micku]

I don't think he's the level of Pippen yet. Pippen is a better playmaker and is a better scorer. Kawhi is probably a better shooter and FT shooter. He is very versatile similar to Pippen and is elite. Kawhi is young tho, so he could improve.

Although I don't think Kawhi is a better man defender than Tony Allen tho. Tony Allen is a beast.

According to nba.com, Tony Allen the Dfg% is 37%. That means on average, he limits guys to 37%. The average player that he faces shoots around 43.9%. So, this is a -6.9 diff.

Kawhi dfg% is 44.2. The average player he face shoots around 44.8%. So that's a -0.6 diff.

Kawhi has a dtrg of 96, which is the best in the league. And plus/minus net rating on defense is -5. Opponent 104.8 ortg off the court. 99.8 ortg on the court. His DBPM is 3.5. Tony Allen has a dtrg of 98. The best on his team considering if you adjust for amount games played. And his plus/minus net rating on defense is -8.3. 105.8 ortg off the court. 97.5 ortg on the court. His DBPM is 3.7.

So, Tony Allen is a beast.

We don't know Pippen's advance stats like that tho. We know his DBPM tho, but that just depends on how much your team relies on you for defense end, so it depends on how sucky or good your lineup is at times. With MJ there, his DBPM dropped.

Although I don't think Kawhi is better than Pippen the defensive end either even though Kawhi is good. It's hard to see say tho. I'll pay more attention to what he does during the playoffs. I don't think Kawhi is better than Tony Allen tho. Tony Allen should go down as one of the best perimeter defenders of all time.

[Smoke117]

I don't think he's the level of Pippen yet. Pippen is a better playmaker and is a better scorer. Kawhi is probably a better shooter and FT shooter. He is very versatile similar to Pippen and is elite. Kawhi is young tho, so he could improve.

Although I don't think Kawhi is a better man defender than Tony Allen tho. Tony Allen is a beast.

According to nba.com, Tony Allen the Dfg% is 37%. That means on average, he limits guys to 37%. The average player that he faces shoots around 43.9%. So, this is a -6.9 diff.

Kawhi dfg% is 44.2. The average player he face shoots around 44.8%. So that's a -0.6 diff.

Kawhi has a dtrg of 96, which is the best in the league. And plus/minus net rating on defense is -5. Opponent 104.8 ortg off the court. 99.8 ortg on the court. His DBPM is 3.5. Tony Allen has a dtrg of 98. The best on his team considering if you adjust for amount games played. And his plus/minus net rating on defense is -8.3. 105.8 ortg off the court. 97.5 ortg on the court. His DBPM is 3.7.

So, Tony Allen is a beast.

We don't know Pippen's advance stats like that tho. We know his DBPM tho, but that just depends on how much your team relies on you for defense end, so it depends on how sucky or good your lineup is at times. With MJ there, his DBPM dropped.

Although I don't think Kawhi is better than Pippen the defensive end either even though Kawhi is good. It's hard to see say tho. I'll pay more attention to what he does during the playoffs. I don't think Kawhi is better than Tony Allen tho. Tony Allen should go down as one of the best perimeter defenders of all time.

Drating should only be used when evaluating a player to his own team. If you're a on a bad defensive team, but are excellent, your drating is going to be significantly lower than your teams and that's a good indication how much you mattered. Your drating is also going to be effected by your team, because its still a team stat, so if you play on a bad defensive team...your drating will never be as low as it possibly could because the stat is not completely an individual stat.

Scotting Pippen drating compared to team in 94 and 95: 97 to 102.7, 98 to 104.3

Kawhi Leonard drating compared to team last year and 2015: 98 to 102.4, 96 to 102.0

Bulls overall drating is higher because they were a weaker defensive team in general. Scottie's drating difference is higher between his team and him because he did more though. in the 2014 season leonard shared his 98 rating with Tim Duncan. This season? 96 to 97. Scottie in 94 with his 97 drating? 2nd lowest 101.1 Horace grant. Scottie in 94 with his 98drating? 2nd lowest? 102. Kawhi Leonard had Tim Duncan to help raise him up, who did Scottie have when MJ left and then Horace Grant left? Two of three of the best defensive players on the team leave and the Bulls were 2nd in defense in 95? Why? Because of BJ? lol, Kukoc? lol, longley? lol, myers? lol etc etc...no because Scottie Pippen had the greatest defensive season of any non PF/C.

[3ball]

Scottie Pippen Finals Stats from 1991 to 1993.


1991 - 20.8 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 6.6 apg, 2.4 spg, 45.3 FG%

1992 - 20.8 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 7.7 apg, 1.5 spg, 48.4 FG%

1993 - 20.8 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 7.7 apg, 2.0 spg, 44 FG%


1994 - 22.0 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, 2.9 spg, 49.1 FG%

As you can see, Pippen's production without MJ was the same as with MJ - MJ's game (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11188520&postcount=37) allowed teammates to play to their strengths and fulfill their maximum capacity, thus allowing the TEAM to maximize its capacity, and therefore never underachieve (6/6).

[scm5]

Just about everyone in this thread has answered properly, so I won't bother.

But here's a question

Is there anything that Leonard does better than prime Pippen?

Better shooter, that's about it.

[Sarcastic]

Just about everyone in this thread has answered properly, so I won't bother.

But here's a question

Is there anything that Leonard does better than prime Pippen?


Well one has a DPOY and one doesn't.

So there's that.

[pauk]

Here we go with the continued overrating of this media loving overachieving Andre Iguodala....

...and here we go with the reality:

OFFENSIVE SIDE -
Pippen was better at literally everything, first of all he had FAR better court vision, passing skills and leadership/IQ/decision making.... he had better ballhandling and a better scoring arsenal aswell / much more moves... which allowed him to be far more versatile... he was a better rebounder there aswell (off. rebounds).... he could and DID play/start PG-SG-SF-PF positions, maybe even C occasionally... the only thing Kawhi did as well was/is perhaps 3PT% & FT%.....

DEFENSIVE SIDE -
Kawhi is very close to be similar with his athleticism, lateral quickness and effort to be amazing one-on-one at the perimeter... he can lock people down.... but even there Pippen's IQ/anticipations were a bit better........ NOW, here is where Pippen separates himself, the inside / post / help defense.... he could guard PFs just as well and even some Centers... he was no mismatch for anybody unless you were Shaq or something (and even there he could find a way to deny him the ball or steal the ball or pull the chair on him and stuff, he was very smart), he was far more versatile and more of a vocal leader.... his defensive rebounding was better aswell....

[pauk]

Well one has a DPOY and one doesn't.

So there's that.

If Pippen played today he would have won multiple DPOY's... and unlike Kawhi he wouldnt have robbed anybody (Draymond Green).... in the 90s he had to battle that award with the likes of Hakeem Olajuwon, Dennis Rodman, Dikembe Mutombo, David Robinson, Alonzo Mourning, Gary Payton etc every year.... and then you include Pippen.... Jordan.... and all of the sudden Kawhi cant even make the 1st all-defensive team, maybe not even the 2nd all-defensive team if he played in that era..........

[Micku]

Drating should only be used when evaluation a player to his own team. If you're a on a bad defensive team, but are excellent, your drating is going to be significantly lower than your teams and that's a good indication how much you mattered. Your drating is also going to be effected by your team, because its still a team stat, that if you play on a bad defensive team...your drating will never be as low as it possibly could because the stat is not compltely an individual stat.

Scotting Pippen drating compared to team in 94 and 95: 97 to 102.7, 98 to 104.3

Kawhi Leonard drating compared to team last year and 2015: 98 to 102.4, 96 to 102.0

Bulls overall drating is higher because they were a weaker defnesive team in general. Scottie's drating difference is higher between his team and him because he did more though. in the 2014 season leonard shared his 98 rating with Tim Duncan. This season? 96 to 97. Scottie in 94 with his 97 drating? 2nd lowest 101.1 Horace grant. Scottie in 94 with his 98drating? 2nd lowest? 102. Kawhi Leonard had Tim Duncan to help raise him up, who did Scottie have when MJ left and then Horace Grant left? Two of three of the best defensive players on the team leave and the Bulls were 2nd in defense in 95? Why? Because of BJ? lol, Kukoc? lol, longley? lol, myers? lol etc etc...no because Scottie Pippen had the greatest defensive season of any non PF/C.

Thanks for the comments man. Really appreciate your insight.


Well one has a DPOY and one doesn't.

So there's that.

Even then, I don't think Kawhi is the best defender in the game despite his DPOY. Tony Allen is, at least perimeter defense. The statistic show it as well.

[Round Mound]

Scottie Pippen Finals Stats from 1991 to 1993.


1991 - 20.8 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 6.6 apg, 2.4 spg, 45.3 FG%

1992 - 20.8 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 7.7 apg, 1.5 spg, 48.4 FG%

1993 - 20.8 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 7.7 apg, 2.0 spg, 44 FG%

:applause:

[Round Mound]

Here we go with the continued overrating of this media loving overachieving Andre Iguodala....

...and here we go with the reality:

OFFENSIVE SIDE -
Pippen was better at literally everything, first of all he had FAR better court vision, passing skills and leadership/IQ/decision making.... he had better ballhandling and a better scoring arsenal aswell / much more moves... which allowed him to be far more versatile... he was a better rebounder there aswell (off. rebounds).... he could and DID play/start PG-SG-SF-PF positions, maybe even C occasionally... the only thing Kawhi did as well was/is perhaps 3PT% & FT%.....

DEFENSIVE SIDE -
Kawhi is very close to be similar with his athleticism, lateral quickness and effort to be amazing one-on-one at the perimeter... he can lock people down.... but even there Pippen's IQ/anticipations were a bit better........ NOW, here is where Pippen separates himself, the inside / post / help defense.... he could guard PFs just as well and even some Centers... he was no mismatch for anybody unless you were Shaq or something (and even there he could find a way to deny him the ball or steal the ball or pull the chair on him and stuff, he was very smart), he was far more versatile and more of a vocal leader.... his defensive rebounding was better aswell....

:applause:

[dubeta]

Pippen turned a Bulls team that went 1-9 in the playoffs without him, into a dynasty winning 6 rings.

You cant tell me Kawhi had THAT type of impact...

[Paul George 24]

Pippen's Jumpshots Is Not Reliable,he Is More Of A Slasher& Post Scorer

[juju151111]

Why are you guys comparing prime and peak Pippen to the first 4 years of Kawhi?
Kawhi is superior in his first 4 years then pippen was. Kawhi also started off younger. This is Kawhi 4th year and he already won Dpoty and a finals Mvp. His DRAPM is already better then young Pippen. He has a big impact on the game.

[NZStreetBaller]

Why are you guys comparing prime and peak Pippen to the first 4 years of Kawhi?
Kawhi is superior in his first 4 years then pippen was. Kawhi also started off younger. This is Kawhi 4th year and he already won Dpoty and a finals Mvp. His DRAPM is already better then young Pippen. He has a big impact on the game.

This
what the hell had pippen done at kawhis current age.

Kawhi is the new tim duncan. Quiet humble not the most exciting guy. But he is a winner.

[StrongLurk]

Scottie Pippen Finals Stats from 1991 to 1993.


1991 - 20.8 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 6.6 apg, 2.4 spg, 45.3 FG%

1992 - 20.8 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 7.7 apg, 1.5 spg, 48.4 FG%

1993 - 20.8 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 7.7 apg, 2.0 spg, 44 FG%

Crazy consistency

[Dave_520]

My lord, when some people get excited they just tend to lose all sense of reality...

Listen, Im a huge Spurs and Leonard fan... and Im sure I am biased in that respect, but Leonard is not on Pippens level in any shape or form right now...and thats not a diss, its simply an unfair comparison of two players, one of whom only has a few years under his belt and is still developing (esp his offensive game) and the other is a HOF veteran and greatest sidekick of all time...

For the love of God... how unfair to Kawhi can you be?

They both are similar players, sure. Pippen has a much better overall offensive game and is much more fluid... the man was the original long armed, athletic swingman-versatile prototype for the likes of which Kawhi is molding himself into...

Defensively they are very similar, where of course Pippen is still better but only because Leonard is only 23.... I would bet at this pace, Leonard will be in Pippens league by the end of his career.

I do think Leonard is doing more at his age than Pippen, but Pippen wasnt being prepared to take the alpha role on the Bulls... he developed his skills BECAUSE he was not stuck being THE MAN in the spotlight...allowed him to develop his skills at his own pace. Leonard luckily has been doing that the past 2 years and is getting ready to be the alpha dog on this team.... so I think Leonards ceiling is higher... but of course only time will tell...

And while I agree there were more lockdown type defenders in the 90s, much of that had to do with the rules, handchecking, the way teams played, etc..... and while I agree the Leonard would not be maybe a 1st team defender at this point back then, he would def be 2nd Def team at LEAST... dont act like he isnt as good as most of those guys mentioned defensively...

[bizil]

Easily Pip! Until Bron came around, Pippen was the most complete SF of all time. Pip revolutionized the SF position in an epic way. At 6'8, he combined Hondo's attributes with Dr. J's athletic ability.

[Dragonyeuw]

Way too soon for such a comparison, we don't know how much better Leonard will get. Defensively is the only way they can be reasonably compared at this point, otherwise Scottie is in a whole nother category as a facilitator. Have we forgotten than Pip was pretty much setting up the triangle in his prime, allowing MJ to play more off-ball? Kawhi has yet to demonstrate ballhandling, decision-making or open court prowess on prime Pip's level.

[Lebron23]

Not in the same tier as Scottie Pippen. You need to compare Kaway Leonard to Cedric Maxwell.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/maxwece01.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DWnDrLgsFyM/UOq3c-IAtjI/AAAAAAAAARI/kFkSIuEF5LY/s1600/maxwell_264091.jpg

[Harison]

Prime Pippen was obviously better than current Kiwi, but there is a catch - we havent seen prime Kiwi yet. In 2-3 years he just might be as good as prime Pippen, and who knows - maybe even slightly better.

[ClipperRevival]

Not in the same tier as Scottie Pippen. You need to compare Kaway Leonard to Cedric Maxwell.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/maxwece01.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DWnDrLgsFyM/UOq3c-IAtjI/AAAAAAAAARI/kFkSIuEF5LY/s1600/maxwell_264091.jpg

I had no idea Maxwell had a fmvp on his resume until now.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Prime Pippen was obviously better than current Kiwi, but there is a catch - we havent seen prime Kiwi yet. In 2-3 years he just might be as good as prime Pippen, and who knows - maybe even slightly better.

Not even athletic peak yet and Pippen stans already saying the young 23 year old and prime Pip have equal athleticism.

:bowdown:

[Smoke117]

Scottie Pippen in the 1990 season is better than Kawhi Leonard right now. People want to throw out that Leonard is a superstar? Well if he is, then Scottie was one for a good 10 year period. It's hilarious and pathetic how a guy like Leonard is revered now, while a superior player like Pippen never got any love when he was playing.

These days we revere the team player, anti "hero ball" player while crucifying the opposite. A ppor mans Pippen gets his dick sucked off at every opportunity for it now. :lol

[bizil]

Pip was just a scoring tweak away from being the GOAT SF at one point in time! When u factor in six rings, two gold medals, and redefining the SF position, I think that's CLEARLY an argument to make. He was a great passer, great defender, and great rebounder at the SF. Scoring wise, he was very good as well. So for Leonard to get on that level, he has MAJOR WORK to do.

While Pip was a point forward, Leonard is more old school-prototypical SF. Obviously he's a great defender. And very good-great rebounding SF too. The next step is getting his scoring to alpha dog level ability. If he doesn't, he will be more similar to a Shawn Marion level SF. Which isn't a bad thing at all.

But if he can get to alpha level ability, it will take him to another level. With those big hands and freak athletic ability, he reminds me of Dr.J at times. If he can do it more consistently, he could become TRULY one of the best two way SF's of all time. I'm not looking for him to be a point forward like Pippen.

Guys like Pip, Bron, and G Hill are a rare breed. That kind of versatility doesn't grow on trees. Leonard would really have to be like a Dr. J scoring the rock to even have a chance to eclipse Pippen.

[VengefulAngel]

Just about everyone in this thread has answered properly, so I won't bother.

But here's a question

Is there anything that Leonard does better than prime Pippen?

Shoot 3s.

[sportjames23]

Who you got? I'll go with Leonard. Kawhi is the better scorer, rebounder and more clutch(FMVP against Bran). Defense is roughly equal. Scottie does have a slight edge as a playmaker tho. Thoughts?


When'd you start watching the NBA?

[Angel Face]

:confusedshrug:

[Paul George 24]

Not even athletic peak yet and Pippen stans already saying the young 23 year old and prime Pip have equal athleticism.

:bowdown:
HE COST DUNCAN ANOTHER RINGS AGAIN :banghead:

[Round Mound]

Pip was just a scoring tweak away from being the GOAT SF at one point in time! When u factor in six rings, two gold medals, and redefining the SF position, I think that's CLEARLY an argument to make. He was a great passer, great defender, and great rebounder at the SF. Scoring wise, he was very good as well. So for Leonard to get on that level, he has MAJOR WORK to do.

While Pip was a point forward, Leonard is more old school-prototypical SF. Obviously he's a great defender. And very good-great rebounding SF too. The next step is getting his scoring to alpha dog level ability. If he doesn't, he will be more similar to a Shawn Marion level SF. Which isn't a bad thing at all.

But if he can get to alpha level ability, it will take him to another level. With those big hands and freak athletic ability, he reminds me of Dr.J at times. If he can do it more consistently, he could become TRULY one of the best two way SF's of all time. I'm not looking for him to be a point forward like Pippen.

Guys like Pip, Bron, and G Hill are a rare breed. That kind of versatility doesn't grow on trees. Leonard would really have to be like a Dr. J scoring the rock to even have a chance to eclipse Pippen.

:applause:

[3ball]

Guys like Pip, Bron, and G Hill are a rare breed. That kind of versatility doesn't grow on trees.


That sounds nice and everything - kumbaya - but the reality is that none of those guys ever got 30/9/11 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic) over 24 games at point guard, including a stretch (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games) of 10 triple doubles in 11 games.

Also, none of those guys got MJ's playoffs of Finals assist averages (which were higher thru age 30) while playing off-ball.
.

[SourSamCassell]

Easily Pippen IMO

[Smoke117]

That sounds nice and everything - kumbaya - but the reality is that none of those guys ever got 30/9/11 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic) over 24 games at point guard, including a stretch (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games) of 10 triple doubles in 11 games.

Also, none of those guys got MJ's playoffs of Finals assist averages (which were higher thru age 30) while playing off-ball.
.

True...they actually won while playing playing PG for their teams...you tiresome bitch.

[3ball]

True...they actually won while playing playing PG for their teams...you tiresome bitch.
Pippen didn't win shit, nor was he ever a point guard.. MJ's assist percentage was far higher, especially in the playoffs.

Grant Hill never won, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.

As for Lebron's "winning": There's only one way to describe the NBA when it can't beat Euroleague (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373182): the worst era of all time.

Lebron's accomplishments occurred in the weakest era of all time.
.