Tony Allen vs Kawhi Leonard vs Draymond Green defensively

[Micku]

So, lets talk about this. I was a bit shocked that Tony Allen didn't get more mention in terms of DPoY since defensively he was a beast. Anyhow:

Kawhi Leonard (DPoY):
Spurs: 2nd best defense (102.0 DRtg)
DRtg: 96- lowest on his team.
DBPM: 3.5, second best on the team.
On-Court DRtg: 99.8. Off Court 104.8. Diff -5.0. This is the best out of the starters.
Kawhi dfg% is 44.2. The average player he face shoots around 44.8%. So that's a -0.6 diff.

Tony Allen (7th in DPOY)
Grizzlies: 3rd best defense (102.2 DRtg)
DRtg: 98-lowest on his team considering minutes and games played.
DBPM: 3.7, best on the team considering games played.
On-Court DRtg: 97.5. Off court 105.8. Diff -8.3. This is the best out of the starters.
Allen's Dfg% is 37%. The average player that he faces shoots around 43.9%. So, this is a -6.9 diff.


Draymond Green (2nd in DPOY)
Warriors: 1st in defense. (101.4 DRtg)
DRtg: 97 tied with Bogut as the lowest of the team.
DBPM: 4.0, second best on the team.
On-Court DRtg: 98.6. Off court 105.5. Diff -6.9. This is the best out of the starters.
Green's Dfg% is 39.1%. The average player that he faces shoots around 45.4%. So, this is a -6.3 diff

Lets take a look at the diff on/off the court compared to their teammates:

Spurs
Parker: +4.9
Duncan: -0.4
Green: -1.3
Diaw: -2.3
Splitter: -2.5
Leonard: -5.0

Grizzlies
Lee: +7.4
Gasol: +6.8
Conley: +3.6
Randolph: +0.2
Tony Allen: -8.3

Warriors
Barnes: -0.8
Thompson: -2.0
Curry: -3.5
Bogut: -6.0
Green: -6.9

All three of them seem to be the anchor for their defense. Allen seemingly having the most impact with his team, and is the best man to man defender than either of them. Followed by Green and than Leonard. I wonder why Allen didn't get more votes considering that statistic advantage he has over them? What do you guys think and who is the best defender?

[J Shuttlesworth]

Can you post Deandre Jordan too?

[LoneyROY7]

I give Kawhi a slight edge over Allen. Green's overrated due to his team's defense and is not even in the discussion.

[navy]

Tony Allen is a guard who doesnt stuff the stat sheet. He's gonna naturally have a hard time winning.

Kawhi Leonard has the steals and the narrative after the FMVP last year.

Green plays on a team with Bogut and Iggy and as a jack of all trades role player he gets lost in the narrative of big performance stars. Which is why he lost due in 2ns and third place votes to the likes of Kawhi, Davis, and Deandre Jordan.

[Hit_Em]

could you tell us what DRtg and DBPM mean

[ArbitraryWater]

Allen's best defensive years are behind him, thats why.

[bdreason]

All 3 are different defenders.


Allen is the best 1 v 1 perimeter defender. Incredible footwork and body positioning. When I watch the Grizzlies play, I'm constantly watching Allen and Conley's defensive footwork... it's a thing of beauty.

Kawhi is the most versatile perimeter and help defender. This guy gets his hands on more balls than anyone in the league (no homo).

Draygod is the most versatile all-around defender, because of his ability to defend the post and the perimeter. A lot of his defensive value also comes from his ability to get defensive rebounds and start the break.



If I'm forced to choose, I'd probably take Kawhi. Mainly because there aren't many prolific post scorers in the league anymore (Draygod), and Kawhi's ability to disrupt passing lanes causes havoc to opposing offenses.

[Micku]

Allen's best defensive years are behind him, thats why.

He's better this year than last year in almost all defensive statistic categories. Dfg% he was -3.5. Limiting ppl to 40.7% and the average was 44.2%. This year it's -6.9. He's limiting ppl to 37%. The average is 43.9%. And this year is his highest DBPM of his career and is the best among his teammates, so he means more to the team than ever in terms of defense.

So...he basically he is at his peak in the statistic category. He never really gets any rep to begin with, but he got more rep after his defense on Kevin Durant. He was arguable the best perimeter defender last year, but he is better this year.


could you tell us what DRtg and DBPM mean

In simple terms:

DRtg is estimate points allowed per 100 possessions. The lower the better.

DBPM is an adjusted plus/minus stat per-100-possession. 0.0 is league average. So if you are 3 points above that, that means your 3 points above league average. You can look at other players to check out the scales.

But there are times where you have to take other factors involved. Like the rules of the league at the time, the teammates that player has, and etc.

[dubeta]

lebron

[Micku]

Can you post Deandre Jordan too?

DJ is a little different because it's best to compare his defense at the rim. And his defense at the rim is ok.

DJ's Opponent FG% at the rim is 48.5%. He gets 8.7 FGA at the rim.
His DRtg is 98, which is the best of his team. His DBPM is 3.2. His DRtg while his on the floor is 105.8. When he is off it's 104.8. So the diff is +1.0.
His Dfg% is 46.4 and the average is player he face has a 47.2%. So, the diff is -0.8.

So basically, he isn't a total game changer with the defense stats go. Like his rim protection maybe a little overrated despite his block shots. Last year it was the same way. Rudy Gobert opponent FG% at the rim is 40.4% and the FGA at the rim is 8.3. Ibaka was 40.8% and Bogut was 41.4%. Those guys were the best of the rim protectors.

But DJ is on a team that isn't that average defensively in the first place. They only got better in that regard in the last several games at the end of the season.

[warriorfan]

Green doesn't lock down individuals as much as he plays good defense and is able to switch assignments with the entire team. He disrupts their offense as a whole.

[Eric Cartman]

Warriors
Barnes: -0.8
Thompson: -2.0
Curry: -3.5
Bogut: -6.0
Green: -6.9

2 defensive anchors, the best frontcourt in the league in that regard.

Let's see if it manifest itself in the postseason, so far not so much.

Davis beasted against that froncourt (30 pg).

Next round it's an impossible challenge against the Grizzlies, someone is gonna draw the short end of the stick on that one.

[T_L_P]

Can you post Deandre Jordan too?

Why would his case matter when he's barely a top 10 defensive player in the league, and light years behind guys like Bogut/Duncan? :biggums:

[tragicbronson]

All 3 are different defenders.


Allen is the best 1 v 1 perimeter defender. Incredible footwork and body positioning. When I watch the Grizzlies play, I'm constantly watching Allen and Conley's defensive footwork... it's a thing of beauty.

Kawhi is the most versatile perimeter and help defender. This guy gets his hands on more balls than anyone in the league (no homo).

Draygod is the most versatile all-around defender, because of his ability to defend the post and the perimeter. A lot of his defensive value also comes from his ability to get defensive rebounds and start the break.

If I'm forced to choose, I'd probably take Kawhi. Mainly because there aren't many prolific post scorers in the league anymore (Draygod), and Kawhi's ability to disrupt passing lanes causes havoc to opposing offenses.

:D Sounds funny actually

[KobesFinger]

How does Jimmy Butler compare?

[Micku]

2 defensive anchors, the best frontcourt in the league in that regard.

Let's see if it manifest itself in the postseason, so far not so much.

Davis beasted against that froncourt (30 pg).

Next round it's an impossible challenge against the Grizzlies, someone is gonna draw the short end of the stick on that one.

Yeah, they didn't contain him despite the defensive numbers. Perhaps it shows how much Davis is a stud since he was able to do that against the best defensive team and frontline in the league tho. We'll see what they'll do against other teams.

Green's playoff Dfg% was 47%. And the average player he faced in this series was 47%. So, he didn't do anything different in terms of man to man defense (couldn't stop Davis). Bogut on the other hand was Dfg% was 39.6. The average player he faced had a 48.5%. So the difference is -8.9. Of course Bogut defensive impact goes more than just that. His protection at the rim % was 43.8%. And that's good.

With that said, Green has the plus/minus stat to his advantage (understatement). We have to wait until things get adjusted to analysis. However, he did more things to disrupt the offense than his man to man defense.

[Micku]

How does Jimmy Butler compare?
Jimmy Butler don't really compare to them in terms of these defensive stats.

But I'm going to do playoff version and see how things go.

[Suguru101]

So, lets talk about this. I was a bit shocked that Tony Allen didn't get more mention in terms of DPoY since defensively he was a beast. Anyhow:

Kawhi Leonard (DPoY):
Spurs: 2nd best defense (102.0 DRtg)
DRtg: 96- lowest on his team.
DBPM: 3.5, second best on the team.
On-Court DRtg: 99.8. Off Court 104.8. Diff -5.0. This is the best out of the starters.
Kawhi dfg% is 44.2. The average player he face shoots around 44.8%. So that's a -0.6 diff.

Tony Allen (7th in DPOY)
Grizzlies: 3rd best defense (102.2 DRtg)
DRtg: 98-lowest on his team considering minutes and games played.
DBPM: 3.7, best on the team considering games played.
On-Court DRtg: 97.5. Off court 105.8. Diff -8.3. This is the best out of the starters.
Allen's Dfg% is 37%. The average player that he faces shoots around 43.9%. So, this is a -6.9 diff.


Draymond Green (2nd in DPOY)
Warriors: 1st in defense. (101.4 DRtg)
DRtg: 97 tied with Bogut as the lowest of the team.
DBPM: 4.0, second best on the team.
On-Court DRtg: 98.6. Off court 105.5. Diff -6.9. This is the best out of the starters.
Green's Dfg% is 39.1%. The average player that he faces shoots around 45.4%. So, this is a -6.3 diff

Lets take a look at the diff on/off the court compared to their teammates:

Spurs
Parker: +4.9
Duncan: -0.4
Green: -1.3
Diaw: -2.3
Splitter: -2.5
Leonard: -5.0

Grizzlies
Lee: +7.4
Gasol: +6.8
Conley: +3.6
Randolph: +0.2
Tony Allen: -8.3

Warriors
Barnes: -0.8
Thompson: -2.0
Curry: -3.5
Bogut: -6.0
Green: -6.9

All three of them seem to be the anchor for their defense. Allen seemingly having the most impact with his team, and is the best man to man defender than either of them. Followed by Green and than Leonard. I wonder why Allen didn't get more votes considering that statistic advantage he has over them? What do you guys think and who is the best defender?

:biggums:

Gasol is Memphis' defensive anchor, Duncan is the Spurs defensive anchor.

[Paul George 24]

LEONARD'S DEFENCE IS HIGHLY OVERRATED :banghead:

[Micku]

:biggums:

Gasol is Memphis' defensive anchor, Duncan is the Spurs defensive anchor.

Not this year. As the stats indicate above, Memphis is better defensively with Tony Allen on the floor than Gasol. He's also great with disrupting the offense at the perimeter and is probably the best one on one defender at the perimeter. It amazes me that Allen gets no media love.

Similar with Kawhi. However, Kawhi and Duncan gap is much smaller than the Allen and Gasol gap. And besides, Kawhi is the DPoY. How can someone not be the defensive anchor if they are DPoY?

Although, I think Tony Allen should've got more votes. He is a better defender than Kawhi.

[dreamwarrior]

Tony Allen is without question has been the greatest perimeter defender ever since he came into the league. The fact that he puts up those stats while leading the league in steals per 36. He has no weaknesses on defense.

[Suguru101]

Not this year. As the stats indicate above, Memphis is better defensively with Tony Allen on the floor than Gasol. He's also great with disrupting the offense at the perimeter and is probably the best one on one defender at the perimeter. It amazes me that Allen gets no media love.

Similar with Kawhi. However, Kawhi and Duncan gap is much smaller than the Allen and Gasol gap. And besides, Kawhi is the DPoY. How can someone not be the defensive anchor if they are DPoY?

Although, I think Tony Allen should've got more votes. He is a better defender than Kawhi.

Just ask yourself, what hurts the Spurs more; Kawhi having a horrible defensive game, or Duncan having a horrible defensive game?

If Kawhi has such a game, the guy he is guarding goes off. If Duncan has such a game, the entire other team has a field day at the rim. Same is the case for Gasol and Allen.

That's why they are the anchors, because they are the ones who guard the paint, they are the last line of defense. Duncan and Gasol are their team's most important defenders.

Now, Kawhi and Allen may be better individual defenders, as in one on one, but they are not as important defensively as Duncan and Gasol because they don't guard the paint.

[Micku]

Just ask yourself, what hurts the Spurs more; Kawhi having a horrible defensive game, or Duncan having a horrible defensive game?

If Kawhi has such a game, the guy he is guarding goes off. If Duncan has such a game, the entire other team has a field day at the rim. Same is the case for Gasol and Allen.

That's why they are the anchors, because they are the ones who guard the paint, they are the last line of defense. Duncan and Gasol are their team's most important defenders.

Now, Kawhi and Allen may be better individual defenders, as in one on one, but they are not as important defensively as Duncan and Gasol because they don't guard the paint.

I know. And it depends on how well they defend the paint. Gasol opp at the rim % is about 49%. Duncan is better than him at 46%.

And Kawhi and Allen do more than just one on one defending. They also disrupt the perimeter offense. Disrupt passing lanes, disrupting plays, knowing when to help, and defending the best perimeter player. If you are great enough, you can disrupt their whole offense before it even begins.

While protecting the paint is more important than perimeter play, there are guys who so good at what they do that they are exception to the rule. These are guys, like Tony Allen and Kawhi this year, rivals the defensive impact of bigs. Kind'a like how Pippen did it in his prime or Artest. It rarely happens, but it happens. And as the stats indicate, they are important to the team on the defensive side, so they are the anchor.

But in this case, Tony Allen means more to the team than ever this year. The dude is a rarity. When is the last time a perimeter player have this much impact to a team on the defensive end? Pippen? Artest? Payton?

[Micku]

Tony Allen is still beastin in the playoffs with his defense. The more I think about, the more I feel like he deserved the DPoY award. The stats are there, eye test, he is good with his help defense and is probably the best one on one defender in the game.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Tony Allen's been just great defensively in the Playoffs so far... Better than what the other two did/have been doing.

[sundizz]

As a Dubs fan I can definitely say that Tony Allen has been the best defensive player in the playoffs.

The way he plays defense is messing up the flow of the offense (of the best offense in the league). You can't give one man more credit than that. Even when he doesn't get a steal, the knowledge of him lurking is making people mishandle passes, throw it wildly, hesitate on their moves, etc.

Once the Dubs get over the shell shock though they will dominate them. That is the thing about basketball - if you are a good offensive player you'll be able to score on even a 10/10 defender because you are completely in control. The best way to neutralize Tony Allen is to attack him in other ways (e.g., make him play way more offense).

[Fudge]

Draymond Green is such an overrated, fat piece of shit. On all areas of the game.

Never, EVER compare this Humpback Whale to those two again.

[iamgine]

Coach Nick's review of Tony Allen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QwjYVOaNL8

[Random_Guy]

As a Dubs fan I can definitely say that Tony Allen has been the best defensive player in the playoffs.

The way he plays defense is messing up the flow of the offense (of the best offense in the league). You can't give one man more credit than that. Even when he doesn't get a steal, the knowledge of him lurking is making people mishandle passes, throw it wildly, hesitate on their moves, etc.

Once the Dubs get over the shell shock though they will dominate them. That is the thing about basketball - if you are a good offensive player you'll be able to score on even a 10/10 defender because you are completely in control. The best way to neutralize Tony Allen is to attack him in other ways (e.g., make him play way more offense).
I disagree, unless the offensive player is an all time great, Allen is one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time, cant say the same for curry. The dubs needs to penetrate the ball more

[sundizz]

Bump. Right again. :applause:

[Heavincent]

Andre Iguodala

[Rocketswin2013]

:biggums:

Gasol is Memphis' defensive anchor, Duncan is the Spurs defensive anchor.
You could also argue Bogut for Golden State...


On topic: I really like Allen here. He has no flaws and can give practically any 1 - 3 trouble. Green fouls a ton, albeit he gets away with a lot, but he still gets called for a lot of fouls, and Leonard isn't a great pnr defender. Paul absolutely torched him. He was too slow while trying to fight over the picks.

[lakerHater]

Draymond Green.. :lol :oldlol: :roll: :lol :lol

[Fallen Angel]

It's hard to compare Draymond Green with elite perimeter defenders. He's undersized for his position (PF) yet is able to defend all five positions on the court in some way (even though he doesn't protect the rim with blocks). He's like Dennis Rodman, without the GOAT motor.

[aj1987]

It's hard to compare Draymond Green with elite perimeter defenders. He's undersized for his position (PF) yet is able to defend all five positions on the court in some way (even though he doesn't protect the rim with blocks). He's like Dennis Rodman, without the GOAT motor.
That's because he's a fat ****.

[Fallen Angel]

That's because he's a fat ****.
Gotta use that weight to his advantage, that's why he does so well against Randolph and other power big men his height.

Rodman has his strong lower body and Green has his heavy/strong body

[Fire Colangelo]

Allen and Kawhi is a toss up, Green can eat shit.