How does the best PG over the last 8 years not even reach a confererence finals?

[1987_Lakers]

:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

the more you allow a small, ball-dominant PG to dominate, the more you stop his team.

it's just the way basketball works.

let me know if you need further clarification.

[ImKobe]

the more you allow a small, ball-dominant PG to dominate, the more you stop his team.

it's just the way basketball works.

let me know if you need further clarification.

This seems like bullshit. CP3 been had chances to make the Conference Finals and his teams been choking in close series down the stretch (Spurs 2008, OKC 2014, Spurs 2015)

one of the GOAT PGs was a small, ball dominant PG that won multiple titles with Detroit

To me, it comes down to the talent and the way the team executes. He's just a poor decision-maker in crunch time.

[Young X]

Because he's faced by far the toughest competition out of any elite player. Name someone who's had to face tougher teams. You can't. He's never even faced a sub 50 win team % wise.

He would be a LEGEND if he played in the east.

[SouBeachTalents]

Because he's faced by far the toughest competition out of any elite player. Name someone who's had to face tougher teams. You can't. He's never even faced a sub 50 win team % wise.

He would be a LEGEND if he played in the east.

Isiah Thomas?

[Young X]

Isiah Thomas?In 1989 alone he faced the:

- 42 win Celtics without Bird in the 1st round
- 49 win Bucks in the 2nd round
- 47 win Bulls (MJ + scrubs) in the conference finals
- Lakers without Magic and Scott in the finals.

CP hasn't even faced a sub 50 win team in the playoffs. None of the above teams are even close to this current Spurs team or OKC last year. That's just ONE season.

[ninephive]

Probably because he ran into Tony Parker 3 times in the playoffs.


...plus the correct answer which is that he's not the best PG.

[ninephive]

Because he's faced by far the toughest competition out of any elite player. Name someone who's had to face tougher teams. You can't. He's never even faced a sub 50 win team % wise.

He would be a LEGEND if he played in the east.
If a choke artist like CP3 would be a legend in the East, what would a legend in the West like Tony Parker be in the East, a god?

[J Shuttlesworth]

If a choke artist like CP3 would be a legend in the East, what would a legend in the West like Tony Parker be in the East, a god?
Luckily Tony Parker has had the help of 3 HOFers

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I've listed a bunch of his not-so-pleasing games and various opportunities he has had to make a WCF. Truth is, CP has no excuses left.

Tonight? He and his team choked AGAIN. Disappointing all around.

[Proctor]

Luckily Tony Parker has had the help of 3 HOFers
No excuses

[bdreason]

Most stacked Conference in the history of the sport.

[3ball]

This seems like bullshit. CP3 been had chances to make the Conference Finals and his teams been choking in close series down the stretch (Spurs 2008, OKC 2014, Spurs 2015)

one of the GOAT PGs was a small, ball dominant PG that won multiple titles with Detroit

To me, it comes down to the talent and the way the team executes. He's just a poor decision-maker in crunch time.
typical casual fan ignorance - thinking isiah and cp3 play alike.. they played very differently.. isiah wasn't NEARLY as ball-dominant as guys like cp3 or nash.. but most importantly, he didn't dominate his team's playmaking and offensive decision-making like those guys.. the pistons were a balanced team with MULTIPLE playmakers - they didn't rely exclusively on isiah to set the table nearly as often as CP3 or Nash-led teams.

the stats prove this: isiah's offensive win share (the degree to which he wins games with his offense) was between 3 and 5 every year, the same as his teammates - those pistons had a BALANCED DISTRIBUTION of offensive win share.. isiah wasn't making every play for them like CP3 does for his teams - this made isiah's teams harder to stop: multiple playmaker teams > 1-playmaker teams.

otoh, chris paul and nash DOMINATE their team's distribution of offensive win share - i.e. their offensive win share is like 12+ every year, while everyone else on their team is much lower.. you should understand that #1 option SG's, SF's, PF's and Centers frequently win championships while dominating their team's distribution of offensive win share, but the only PG that's ever done it is Magic.. and he was a guy that played all 5 positions every game... He wasn't really just a point guard.. (he was just once-in-a-lifetime unique - the only player ever that was an elite passer from ALL positions).

i advise that you re-read the above several times.

[masonanddixon]

Most stacked Conference in the history of the sport.

But only a completely stacked and well-balanced team.

[Mr. Jabbar]

there IS a thing called "clutch gene", its either there or its not, and it defines careers.

[kennethgriffin]

tony parker was the best point guard in the nba over the last 8 years


if parker didnt have to play a more balanced game and could become a ball dominant stat stuffer like paul. i'm sure parker would have inflated assist averages aswell

paul would ruin the chemistry of the spurs though. hes a born loser cause even when hes sharing hes hogging the ball..


its called lebron 101

[NZStreetBaller]

CP3 has simply been beaten by better teams..... its got nothing to do with his individual play.

[3ball]

CP3 has simply been beaten by better teams..... its got nothing to do with his individual play.
isiah thomas would have these clippers as the favorite to make the Finals, or at least right there with GS.

the clippers would play totally different with isiah at PG.

also, isiah would've already led this clipper team to the Finals in previous years.

[3ball]

typical casual fan ignorance - thinking isiah and cp3 play alike.. they played very differently.. isiah wasn't NEARLY as ball-dominant as guys like cp3 or nash.. but most importantly, he didn't dominate his team's playmaking and offensive decision-making like those guys.. the pistons were a balanced team with MULTIPLE playmakers - they didn't rely exclusively on isiah to set the table nearly as often as CP3 or Nash-led teams.

the stats prove this: isiah's offensive win share (the degree to which he wins games with his offense) was between 3 and 5 every year, the same as his teammates - those pistons had a BALANCED DISTRIBUTION of offensive win share.. isiah wasn't making every play for them like CP3 does for his teams - this made isiah's teams harder to stop: multiple playmaker teams > 1-playmaker teams.

otoh, chris paul and nash DOMINATE their team's distribution of offensive win share - i.e. their offensive win share is like 12+ every year, while everyone else on their team is much lower.. you should understand that #1 option SG's, SF's, PF's and Centers frequently win championships while dominating their team's distribution of offensive win share, but the only PG that's ever done it is Magic.. and he was a guy that played all 5 positions every game... He wasn't really just a point guard.. (he was just once-in-a-lifetime unique - the only player ever that was an elite passer from ALL positions).

i advise that you re-read the above several times.
I meant to add that Isiah's WS/48 increased in the playoffs considerably.

This is a testament to how optimal his game was as a small PG (the blueprint for how small PG's should play): when the competition went up in the playoffs, the way his team got better and matched that higher level was by coalescing around isiah's game, and getting more out of him.

otoh, compare that to ball-dominant guys like nash and cp3 who rack up stats by making all the decisions for their team - these guys' WS/48 goes DOWN significantly in the playoffs - their teams simply can't get any better by having them dominate the ball more than they already were.. infact, their teams get WORSE in the playoffs as opponents adjust better than they did in RS to the predictable nature of their 1-playmaker offense.. :confusedshrug:

[bobopenguin]

i dont even like paul, cos i am Dwill stan. But Paul's actually the big shot.
it's not his fault that he misses the big stage, it's cos his fking teammates cant hit damn FTs.

[Young X]

I've listed a bunch of his not-so-pleasing games and various opportunities he has had to make a WCF. Truth is, CP has no excuses left.

Tonight? He and his team choked AGAIN. Disappointing all around.How did Paul choke? He had 8 points in the 4th including an and-1 to pull the Clippers within a single possession late in the game. The Clippers OUTSCORED the Spurs by 6 when he was on the floor. He's the last person anyone should be blaming for this loss, he was the only Clipper who did anything in the 4th quarter.

:biggums:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How did Paul choke? He had 8 points in the 4th including an and-1 to pull the Clippers within a single possession late in the game. The Clippers OUTSCORED the Spurs by 6 when he was on the floor. He's the last person anyone should be blaming for this loss, he was the only Clipper who did anything in the 4th quarter.

:biggums:
How did he not? Bad technical foul, was passive in the first 3 quarters, and should have had the last possession in his hands (ball ends up going to Blake who was 1 of ****ing 9) :oldlol:

Like Isiah Thomas and Rip Hamilton said on Game Time, dude needed to have a BIG game tonight - and didn't.

The entire team choked; you cannot exclude him. Point blank.

[3ball]

How did Paul choke? He had 8 points in the 4th including an and-1 to pull the Clippers within a single possession late in the game. The Clippers OUTSCORED the Spurs by 6 when he was on the floor. He's the last person anyone should be blaming for this loss, he was the only Clipper who did anything in the 4th quarter.

:biggums:
you shouldn't focus on paul.. his stats are a given because of how he controls the clippers offense.

the question should really be: how come paul's teammates always come up short?

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Basketball reasons.

[bobopenguin]

you shouldn't focus on paul.. his stats are a given because of how he controls the clippers offense.

the question should really be: how come paul's teammates always come up short?

cos someone cant hits his FT. not acceptable.

[Young X]

How did he not? Bad technical foul, was passive in the first 3 quarters, and should have had the last possession in his hands (ball ends up going to Blake who was 1 of ****ing 9) :oldlol:

Like Isiah Thomas and Rip Hamilton said on Game Time, dude needed to have a BIG game tonight - and didn't.

The entire team choked; you cannot exclude him. Point blank.This was the tech: https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/871914FF811205092723602997248_3eca7fb4d10.1.5.5110 355782103476630.mp4

All he did was pass the ball to the ref. That's not f*cking choking.

Just because he didn't try to get 30 again doesn't mean he choked. He's not gonna have a big scoring game every night. That's not his game, he's not Michael f*cking Jordan.

Dude was the only Clipper who did anything in the 4th quarter. His teammates completely f*cked up and it's his fault why they lost. Hilarious.

[3ball]

cos someone cant hits his FT. not acceptable.
:confusedshrug: .. maybe

but i think at this point the sample size is too big.. there's something suboptimal about a point guard shouldering such a big role within his team's offense.
.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Are you saying Chris Paul couldn't do any more to help his team win?

After Game 4's performance, I consider this a choke. Do I blame him entirely? No. Never said that. I do know what CP is capable of playing like though, and while I wasn't expecting another 38/8/9 game, I did expect more. A lot more. So yeah...to me that's "choking".

Another opportunity squandered. Just ridiculous.

[Young X]

Are you saying Chris Paul couldn't do anymore to help the team win?

After Game 4's performance, I consider this a choke. I know what CP is capable of playing like, and while I wasn't expecting another 38/8/9 game, I expected more. A lot more. So yeah, to me that's "choking".

Another opportunity squandered. Just ridiculous.No, I'm saying he didn't choke.

idk why you're expecting him to have these ridiculous performances b2b like he's Lebron or something. He didn't have GREAT night but he did more than enough to put his team in a position to win. It's not his fault that the rest of his teammates played like idiots down the stretch.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not gonna have another back and forth here about Chris Paul and "choking". I hold him more accountable than you do, so whatever.

We can both agree Blake and DJ muddied up the game with their ineptitude. That was arguably Blake's WORST postseason game of his career. :facepalm

[ThickassGlasses]

I meant to add that Isiah's WS/48 increased in the playoffs considerably.

This is a testament to how optimal his game was as a small PG (the blueprint for how small PG's should play): when the competition went up in the playoffs, the way his team got better and matched that higher level was by coalescing around isiah's game, and getting more out of him.

otoh, compare that to ball-dominant guys like nash and cp3 who rack up stats by making all the decisions for their team - these guys' WS/48 goes DOWN significantly in the playoffs - their teams simply can't get any better by having them dominate the ball more than they already were.. infact, their teams get WORSE in the playoffs as opponents adjust better than they did in RS to the predictable nature of their 1-playmaker offense.. :confusedshrug:

I neither agree nor disagree with your small PG theory, but I am curious is to why you think that a ball dominate, small PG can't win but a ball dominant SG can? CP3 is averaging 23 points on good efficiency so it's not as if he's not doing something comparable to a ball dominate SG. Is it simply the fact that even a ball dominate SG has the ball less than a PG would? Or is because it forces other people out of rhythm?

[Nick Young]

"best":roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Tony Parker>CP3 ALL DAY, bro.

Ball dominating guards do not win titles.

[iamgine]

This seems like bullshit. CP3 been had chances to make the Conference Finals and his teams been choking in close series down the stretch (Spurs 2008, OKC 2014, Spurs 2015)

one of the GOAT PGs was a small, ball dominant PG that won multiple titles with Detroit

To me, it comes down to the talent and the way the team executes. He's just a poor decision-maker in crunch time.
So he had two chances...both against better teams...

[Taller than CP3]

Luckily Tony Parker has had the help of 3 HOFers

put Chris on the Spurs and he'd still find a way to choke the game away

Tony Parker>CP3

[ninephive]

tony parker was the best point guard in the nba over the last 8 years


if parker didnt have to play a more balanced game and could become a ball dominant stat stuffer like paul. i'm sure parker would have inflated assist averages aswell

paul would ruin the chemistry of the spurs though. hes a born loser cause even when hes sharing hes hogging the ball..


its called lebron 101
This man gets it.

[ninephive]

Not gonna have another back and forth here about Chris Paul and "choking". I hold him more accountable than you do, so whatever.

We can both agree Blake and DJ muddied up the game with their ineptitude. That was arguably Blake's WORST postseason game of his career. :facepalm
Hahaha what? 30/14/7 is the worst postseason game of Blake's career?!

[ArbitraryWater]

How did he not? Bad technical foul, was passive in the first 3 quarters, and should have had the last possession in his hands (ball ends up going to Blake who was 1 of ****ing 9) :oldlol:

Like Isiah Thomas and Rip Hamilton said on Game Time, dude needed to have a BIG game tonight - and didn't.

The entire team choked; you cannot exclude him. Point blank.

Nah, you're putting Paul on MJ pedestal... Paul had a great game, was aggressive, controlled, and really, he didn't even do anything to earn that Tech, and then Griffin missing shots is his fault?

Ridiculous.

[Kblaze8855]

If the Clippers were still the Buffalo Braves and therefore in the East where 56 wins gets you the Celtics in the first round instead of a team that is one FT from going for a 3peat this year....people actually would consider him better at basketball. They really really would. Which is just....sad. Anyway...


Cousy won 1 playoff series in the 7 or so years before Russell arrived(and he had 2 all nba first teamers with him several of those years).


Oscar won 2 playoff series in his ten years as best player on the Royals. And one of the two series wins was against a 34 win team. 5 or 6 of those years he had all nba first team level Jerry Lucas...the best 4 in the world...and at times up to two additional all stars.

Tiny Archibald never won a playoff series at all till he was 30..and on Larry Birds team that he led to 29 wins before Larry got there.

Dave Bing never won a playoff series period.

Pistol Pete never won a playoff series till he was washed up on the Celtics with Bird. Hell he didnt even win in college. He never so much as made the NCAA tournament.

Jason Kidd never did it till he left the west at what...28-29? Last season there he led his team to 52 wins...but all that got him was the 55 win Kings in the first round. He shows up in the east where he doesnt play a 50 win team...at all...because the same 52 wins he had out West got him the #1 seed in the east. So he makes the finals playing a 42, 44, and then 49 win team. Naturally...hes quickly considered a winner when before that he was called a cancer on some stops. Probably for the whole Toni Braxton drama with a couple teammates, getting arrested for domestic violence that got him booed at home, and pretty much giving coach Clemons(the first Phil disciple to get a head coaching shot) the Rondo treatment for trying to run the triangle in Dallas.



Thats just off the top...like...30 years of HOF points considered the best in the NBA not having any playoff success till something fortunate changed everything(Getting Russell...or Larry Bird...or the Eastern conference.). And most of those who didnt need such a thing....they were in someone elses supporting cast. Your Stocktons with Malone, Lenny Wilkins with Pettit, Guy Rodgers with Wilt...Walt Frazier had MVP Reed...then in 72 and 73 he had 5 HOF teammate...and im not counting Phil Jackson of course. That core broke up..Frazier in his prime...still had 3 HOF teammates 2 of the 3 playing like it at the time...I dont think they got to even 42 wins the rest of his career.


And many of those who did have some success...most just have the goal posts moved so they still get called out for a lack of playoff success(Nash, Rose, and so on).

Putting aside the Point God(I need to say who I mean?) points just dont tend to win on teams without absurd over the top talent. Isiah had 5 all stars, one of the best 6th men of the era, and a top 3 coach of the time...so we could argue if that is absurd talent or not.

Generally...it takes something crazy for a point to really lead...not just be on the team...but to lead...a team to a lot of playoff success.

Its far too common for people to still be asking how the best point in the league can not make a conference finals for years at a time.

Superhumans like Magic aside the best point in the league generally doesnt lead teams too far if hes actually the teams best player. And truth be told I suspect Chris Paul could make the finals given Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Mcadoo, and Scott in a conference where he could play a sub .500 team in the WCF...more than once. Really...

You give Paul/Kareem/Worthy/Cooper/Scott a playoff run where a 37 win Nuggets team, a 42 win Warriors team, and a 39 win Sonics team is the path to the finals....you find it unlikely they can make it through?

I dont.

Shit happens. Circumstances shift. You have different paths to glory...you have different teammates...injuries change the entire landscape...

Maybe Paul gets traded to the East and suddenly becomes a winner and history turns a blind eye to the obvious once more.

Let us wait and see.

[JohnFreeman]

He is garbage. The Magic and Isiah comparions are disgusting.

[Nick Young]

^Why do you always defend choke artists KBlaze? I have been telling you CP3 is a choke artist FOR YEARS and you always jump to his aid. It's time to admit you are wrong. Your stats don't mean shit.

CP3 has a career history built on choking and underachieving in the playoffs. He is not going to turn that around playing on the worst franchise in American sports history.

[Optimus Prime]

CP3 is not the "best PG" over the last 8 years. That myth is just another media created lie just like "LeBeta is Top 10". The free passes both get from the media for their epic fails are eerily similar and quite pathetic.

:kobe:

[Kblaze8855]

My stats? What stats? I barely ever mention anyones stats.

And of the 4 the supposed "choke artists" ive defended in my time on ISH....3 have won rings since I started.

I dont expect Paul to....but ive been saying on here for 10 years that teams built around points arent likely to win.

There is little happening that doesnt go along with what ive been saying.

[Kblaze8855]

Me 6 years ago...on the issue of why Nash doesnt win:




The reason teams with points as their best players dont often win is because when you build around a distributing point you load your team with catch and shoot players and off the ball quick finishers and shooters and finishers arent often the best defenders. You dont have multiple ball handlers because the point is supposed ot handle it. You give him 1-2 shooters and guys who have good hands and can finish quickly.

You give him say....

Barbosa, Amare, Marion, Qrich, Eddie House, Raja Bell, Jim Jackson, James Jones, Tim Thomas

And say go win a ring. It produces fine numbers and might win some games but when you get right down to it...

Individuals who can take over win titles. Points who play great team ball and spend all game feeding others....dont often end up Kobe style takeover scorers. Even those like Paul, Deron, and Nash who have the skills. They play team ball and you dont just flip a switch and go from pass first to Kobe.

And who else is gonna do it? The catch and shoot guys? The guys like Marion who score 22 a game with 30 seconds of the ball in their hands?

No.

Add it to the fact that shooters are often shitty defenders and most points themselves cant really lead a good D?

You have limited defenders and guys who dont create for themselves...you dont win titles.

You get a star bigman first thing you want is a steady point, a wing guy to play off him, and some other defensive players to help build a d around him(most of the time superstar bigmen can at least hold down the paint a bit). You get a shooter or two but its not the same.

You start with Nash you build a team to suit him. You start with Duncan you build a team to suit him. Teams built to play off a point dont win generally.

Has nothing to do with the talents of the point or the position itself being overrated. But you arent gonna have Steve Nash as your best player and build a grind it out defensive minded team with plodding back to the basket playing, solid defenders, and ball handling wings the lines of which we watch win rings yearly.

You have Nash/Paul/Deron you build a Nash/Paul/Deron team.

You build guys to finish....around guys who themselves arent dominant defenders...you get a regular season team that folds in the playoffs. Doesnt make the position overrated.....

But maybe teams need to fold in great points into traditional teams and not build the whole franchise around them. you can only stuff so many one skill jump shooters and at the rim finishers into a team and play good grind it out basketball.

Throw a guy like Paul/nash in place of the usual role player points on great teams they dont get worse. But he has to come in last otherwise the team isnt built to win to begin with.


Great points get the same kind of team built around them decade after decade and it doesnt work.

[QuebecBaller]

When you flop in the game, the game will flop on you

[Optimus Prime]

Nash made how many conference Finals? CP3 has made how many again?

And don't act like Nash's teams were so much better than what CP3 has had with the Clippers. Nash had prime Amare, and I would wager that Griffin is or will be a better player than Amare ever was. Doc has a ring, while D'Antoni was a one-trick coach.

For being the "best PG", CP3's flops (both literal and figurative) are indefensible.

:kobe:

[Kblaze8855]

And the minute Nash lost in the conference finals what happened? Goal posts moved....still considered a loser by his detractors.

Winning in the second round means nothing. Never did. Paul makes the conference finals and loses...not a single one of his many haters will stop.

You know it...I know it...hate isnt results based.

Lebrons haters have not stopped after 5 finals and 2 rings with 2 finals MVPs.

Hate is not rational.

[Legends66NBA7]

Nah, you're putting Paul on MJ pedestal.


Hasn't Paul been compared to be as good or better than Magic ?

I don't think that's a problem for people to put him on that type of standard, IMO. But I'm indifferent about Paul. He's still a great player win or lose. It's only basketball where people take it to the extreme about who wins and who loses.

[Optimus Prime]

And the minute Nash lost in the conference finals what happened? Goal posts moved....still considered a loser by his detractors.

Winning in the second round means nothing. Never did. Paul makes the conference finals and loses...not a single one of his many haters will stop.

You know it...I know it...hate isnt results based.

Lebrons haters have not stopped after 5 finals and 2 rings with 2 finals MVPs.

Hate is not rational.

Nash at least led his team to the conference Finals multiple times. Chris Paul has not. That's what leaders and the best players on their teams do. CP3 has way too many choke jobs and letdowns to even be considered on the same level of a Steve Nash.

In regards to LeBeta...

https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/DTd63EvRSYxgtfhBTnEyTNJPV1A=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3630642/Finals-Paths.0.png

I love facts, because they never lie, unlike a biased media and stans with an agenda.

:pimp:

[tpols]

chris paul is too in the flow.. not dominant enough.. which is why pgs don't win like sgs or sfs. They can't score when it really matters. Although he is very unlucky to be out west.. Chris paul would be way more decorated out east.. but that could be said of any player.

[Kblaze8855]

If you want to call being a winner losing the round before winning is even possible...fine. But as I said....getting there wouldnt stop a single Paul hater. You hate on Lebron for 5 finals and 2 rings...you are gonna stop hating someone else for losing in the conference finals? No. As I said...hate is not rational. It isnt results based. Its emotional.

Its people who dont know shit about basketball posting emoticons, gifs, images, and nonsense because they cant explain themselves.

That is what hate is.

And hate does not stop when the subject does what haters say they couldnt. Haters just change the standards...as you have clearly just shown.

[Optimus Prime]

If you want to call being a winner losing the round before winning is even possible...fine. But as I said....getting there wouldnt stop a single Paul hater. You hate on Lebron for 5 finals and 2 rings...you are gonna stop hating someone else for losing in the conference finals? No. As I said...hate is not rational. It isnt results based. Its emotional.

Its people who dont know shit about basketball posting emoticons, gifs, images, and nonsense because they cant explain themselves.

That is what hate is.

And hate does not stop when the subject does what haters say they couldnt. Haters just change the standards...as you have clearly just shown.

You're talking in circles and just calling people haters while ignoring the facts and evidence, just like LeSPN. I honestly expected better.

[Kblaze8855]

Cleverly modified versions of a players name....well gosh...now I know im dealing with someone serious about basketball with opinions I need to take into consideration.

[DMAVS41]

Cleverly modified versions of a players name....well gosh...now I know im dealing with someone serious about basketball with opinions I need to take into consideration.

Why do you always talk about perception?

Who cares what "haters" say?

Let's talk about reality... and what happens on the court matters. If CP3 leads his team to the 2nd round this year it's better than losing and playing poorly.

I still don't understand how you can look at these next 2 games or game and say they don't matter. They are huge...and whatever happens with how Paul plays... It will be a reflection of how good at basketball he is.

Unless you can see the future... You don't know what is going to happen or how Paul will play. So why doesn't it matter?

Seems to me these are some of the biggest games of his career and it absolutely matters how he plays.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Hahaha what? 30/14/7 is the worst postseason game of Blake's career?!
Did you see the 2nd half? He was absolute garbage (literally).

[red1]

calling paul a choke artist is idiotic

[DMAVS41]

And Blaze...

Totally agree with you about the East stuff and advancing...

Could not agree more...


But I'm not talking about that kind of stuff.

[nathanjizzle]

And Blaze...

Totally agree with you about the East stuff and advancing...

Could not agree more...


But I'm not talking about that kind of stuff.

stop blaming the east for dirks underachieving post season career. 7 first round knock outs, thats just bad.

[Bigsmoke]

2008- lost to the defending champs
2009- his team was out matched by the Nuggets
2011- lost to defending champs
2012- CP3 and Blake were both hurt
2013- CP3 was carrying them against the Grizzlies
2014- I'd admit he messed up but the Thunder was a great team they won 58 games.

[nathanjizzle]

some players have better impact than others. cp3 is a passer, you dont need passers in the clutch. hes been an elite pg the longest, but hes definitely not the best.

i mean look at john wall, hes a pass only type player. but in clutch games the last 2 seasons, hes had a losing record when his team has an overall winning record.

[Kblaze8855]

stop blaming the east for dirks underachieving post season career. 7 first round knock outs, thats just bad.


....there is virtually no chance Dirk goes down as an underachiever from a winning point of view.

[DMAVS41]

stop blaming the east for dirks underachieving post season career. 7 first round knock outs, thats just bad.

You need context

In 12, 14, and 15 they were massive dogs...(once Parsons was out)

Tell me how that is under achieving

I won't get into the others as it's clear you started watching ball recently

[Bigsmoke]

stop blaming the east for dirks underachieving post season career. 7 first round knock outs, thats just bad.

Dirk is already a champion, MVP, and FMVP.

He is a proven winner and whatever he does now is a bonus since he is close to 40 now

[nathanjizzle]

....there is virtually no chance Dirk goes down as an underachiever from a winning point of view.

if you actually look at the opportunities dirk has had with the mavericks franchise, including 14 post seasons, you would see that he hasnt achieved up to his standards. but, dirk can do no wrong and the blame is on everyone else. If you look at the goats in the west, you think kobe, duncan, dirk right? duncan and kobe has met expectations then some, how about dirk?

[keep-itreal]

When you flop in the game, the game will flop on you
:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

if you actually look at the opportunities dirk has had with the mavericks franchise, including 14 post seasons, you would see that he hasnt achieved up to his standards. but, dirk can do no wrong and the blame is on everyone else. If you look at the goats in the west, you think kobe, duncan, dirk right? duncan and kobe has met expectations then some, how about dirk?

For starters... Duncan was/is better than Dirk

I'd then ask you to look at circumstances for both Duncan and Kobe and see how much better they were


Then I'd ask how 11 straight 50 win seasons... 3 WCF trips, 2 finals, 1 Title

With a MVP and Finals MVP and 25/10/3 58% TS averages in the playoffs over 14 years is subpar

You must think Dirk is top 10 all time with expectations like that

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Hasn't Paul been compared to be as good or better than Magic ?

I don't think that's a problem for people to put him on that type of standard, IMO. But I'm indifferent about Paul. He's still a great player win or lose. It's only basketball where people take it to the extreme about who wins and who loses.
Exactly. I don't even put him on that level, but for people to say he's in Magic's tier, or the "2nd greatest pg", uhhh yeah, I'm going to judge him accordingly.

I don't think he played terrible, by the way. I just don't think it was enough.

[Legends66NBA7]

Exactly. I don't even put him on that level, but for people to say he's in Magic's tier, or the "2nd greatest pg", uhhh yeah, I'm going to judge him accordingly.

I don't think he played terrible. I just don't think it was enough.

Pretty much. Just can't have it both ways, either Paul is on that level or a level we never seen before, or he's a notch below.

Just go out there and win while producing high enough. Legacy changes (at least in basketball) once you win. It happened to LeBron, it happened to Dirk, etc...

[longtime lurker]

I've been arguing for years that Chris Paul was overrated. He's the definition of this stats obsessesed era. OMGZZZZ Per! He's a great player but shouldn't be in the conversation with greats like Isiah Thomas and Magic Johnson.

[ArbitraryWater]

Pretty much. Just can't have it both ways, either Paul is on that level or a level we never seen before, or he's a notch below.

Just go out there and win while producing high enough. Legacy changes (at least in basketball) once you win. It happened to LeBron, it happened to Dirk, etc...

So he's not a Magic.. or even a Dirk.. why can't he still be applauded for great post-season play :confusedshrug:

Top 35 all-time suits him about right.

[DMAVS41]

So he's not a Magic.. or even a Dirk.. why can't he still be applauded for great post-season play :confusedshrug:

Top 35 all-time suits him about right.

He can and should be applauded.

I think it's just a matter of how great he is.

Blaze and I go back and forth on this stuff as he tends to say we already know how great.

But he said earlier something I thought was telling. He said he doesn't think Paul can lead a team to a title.

But lets pretend Paul does this year or next year. How then could Blaze say he knows exactly how good Paul is...if he does something he didn't think he could do?

That is my interest here.

[Legends66NBA7]

So he's not a Magic.. or even a Dirk.. why can't he still be applauded for great post-season play :confusedshrug:

Top 35 all-time suits him about right.

I do applaud all the great performances hes had. I already think Paul is great (just like many who never won), so whatever he does from now or even getting the chip is just the icing on the cake to his legacy and basketball heads.

All I'm saying is that if he gets that high of a standard, it's different expectations for everyone who's watching. And when it comes it basketball, you don't have a chip on your resume, it just looks like a black mark regardless of how well someone performs. This happens to everyone.

[ChrisKreager]

All it takes is that one breakthrough ala Dirk 2011 or KG 2008.

When you get that first title, it changes things.

[1987_Lakers]

:confusedshrug:

[notatop29pg]

The same way a not even top 5000pg like derek fisher can have multiple rings.

Sometimes it just doesn't happen.

[SexSymbol]

Steve Nash is the best PG of the last 8 years.
Westbrook is definitely arguable

[Heavincent]

Because he's not the best PG.