Magic Johnson would play PG in today's game because

[3ball]

there has never been a player who averaged 12 APG that DIDN'T play point guard..

in the entire history of the game, every single time a coach had a player capable of averaging 12 APG, they put that player at point guard.

and just think about it - if YOU were a coach, and you had a guy who averaged 12 APG, you would put that guy at point guard.

you wouldn't be the very first coach in the history of the game to put a 12 APG player at a position OTHER than PG.

[navy]

Okay...

[J Shuttlesworth]

Every week, you have something new to flip out about and making multiple spam threads about.

I think I speak for everyone when I say

SHUT THE **** UP 3BALL

[3ball]

Every week, you have something new to flip out about and making multiple spam threads about.

I think I speak for everyone when I say

SHUT THE **** UP 3BALL
translation: I'm was wrong about something else yet again, and that makes me mad.

[J Shuttlesworth]

translation: I'm was wrong about something else yet again, and that makes me mad.
:biggums: I never even made a post on this subject

[3ball]

:biggums: I never even made a post on this subject
As long as you understand that Magic would play PG in today's game.

He wouldn't be the very first non-point guard to average 10+ assists in the history of the game.

[Kvnzhangyay]

As long as you understand that Magic would play PG in today's game.

He wouldn't be the very first non-point guard to average 10+ assists in the history of the game.

Thanks for your insight :facepalm

[navy]

Im trying to figure out the Jordan angle here. Anyone got anything?

Also, Magic Johnson definitely wouldn't guard the point guard position.

[ZMonkey11]

So you're telling me...the best PG of all-time...would play PG in today's league?

Get the **** out of town man. He'd probably play center. You saw how he did when he played center in the '80 Finals. You have no knowledge of basketball.

[J Shuttlesworth]

So you're telling me...the best PG of all-time...would play PG in today's league?
This.

Quit freaking out 3ball.

[Spaulding]

Magic could play PG sure. In defense he would guard SF or PF easily.

This was already discussed on Open Court.

[KG215]

Im trying to figure out the Jordan angle here. Anyone got anything?

Also, Magic Johnson definitely wouldn't guard the point guard position.
Well, if you call him Magic Johnson, and not Earvin Johnson, the Magic and Jordan have the same initials. So he's branching out, but he's staying in the M.J. initial family.

[SouBeachTalents]

Next thread: Kareem would play C in today's game

[Rose'sACL]

In today's game, the spacing and hands-off approach to defense makes defending penetration a TEAM effort - gone are the days where a guy like Gary Payton or Mookie Blaylock was expected to significantly reduce PG penetration.. There isn't anyone in today's game that stops PG penetration or is even EXPECTED to - the notion of stopping penetration is an old-school notion (back when the lack of spacing and legal hand-checking/physicality made it actually possible).

Look at the GIF above - that's an example of today's spaced out game with the hand-check ban, which allows penetration to be an automatic, built-in component of the game.

The NBA has confirmed this - they officially stated that the 2005 rule changes (specifically the hand-check ban and defensive 3 seconds) had achieved their objective of increasing penetration (link below).. This is from the source and creator of the new rules, so it's not subjective opinion, similar to how Bill Gates vision for Microsoft was never considered subjective opinion: http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html
Lebron, butler, kawhi, CP3 are just some of the names who stop PG penetration. Lebron and butler just have to guard bigger players otherwise parker, rose and Westbrook all got shut down with lebron on them. Lebron also shuts down CP3 if he has to.
Reality is that magic would have to be hidden on defense in today's league. I am sure good coaches would come up with a plan to hide him on defense because he would be a great offensive threat.

[3ball]

Im trying to figure out the Jordan angle here. Anyone got anything?

Also, Magic Johnson definitely wouldn't guard the point guard position.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/1dc96941a9ff6d64bfb56f67900cac7e.gif


In today's game, the spacing and hands-off approach to defense makes defending penetration a TEAM effort - i.e. gone are the days where a guy like Gary Payton or Mookie Blaylock was expected to significantly reduce PG penetration.. There isn't anyone in today's game that stops PG penetration or is even EXPECTED to - the notion of stopping penetration is an old-school notion (back when the lack of spacing and legal hand-checking made it actually possible).

Look at the GIF above - that's an example of today's spaced out game with the hand-check ban, which allows penetration to be an automatic, built-in component of the game.

The NBA has confirmed this - they officially stated that the 2005 rule changes (specifically the hand-check ban and defensive 3 seconds) had achieved their objective of increasing penetration (link below).. This is from the source and creator of the new rules, so it's not subjective opinion, similar to how Bill Gates vision for Microsoft was never considered subjective opinion: http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html

Btw, Magic's teams seemed to do pretty well when they played Tim Hardaway, Kevin Johnson, Isiah, Stockton, Michael Ray Richardson, etc., but the media hyperbole is still fun
.

[PistonsFan#21]

Yo 3ball you forgot to mention Jordan in your OP

[Marchesk]

Lebron and butler just have to guard bigger players otherwise parker, rose and Westbrook all got shut down with lebron on them.

When did Westbrook get shut down by Lebron???

[gts]

I've had some NBA insiders tell me that if Kareem was playing today they'd have him play at center

Shocking I know, but that's today's game, so on the cutting edge, pushing the envelope

[KG215]

Yo 3ball you forgot to mention Jordan in your OP
Yeah, but I think it goes without saying that in today's game Jordan would play SG.

[bizil]

Could Magic play PG in today's game and be the best PG in the world? HELL YA!! Would he actually play PG in today's game? It depends on what team drafted him. People gotta remember that the Lakers had Norm Nixon at PG when they drafted him in 79. Norm was an All Star level PG.

So the Lakers ACTUALLY had Magic listed as an SG. Norm and Magic were both pass first PG's, but Magic was the better scorer. And even back then, Magic was very versatile and played numerous positions.

So for me, it's not about if Magic could play PG in today's game. OF COURSE he could! In terms of guarding a PG, Magic didn't really guard the smaller PG's anyway. B Scott or Coop would defend the PG.

But I could easily see a team drafting Magic to play a Bron-G Hill-Pippen style point forward position. That's the beauty of guys like that. U could put them at several positions and they would be among the best.

[Dr.J4ever]

Not a bad topic by 3ball, for once. I have a feeling though that this will degenerate into more "paint camping" gifs:lol

In the Open Court episode, Isaiah Thomas said Magic today would play center. I don't know about that, and I agree with 3ball again(incredible) that today's way of playing defense is a team effort.

The lack of physicality allowed on the perimeter in the regular season(not so much in these playoffs) and the spacing produced by today's spread offenses, make it difficult to expect PGs to just contain their men on the perimeter. To be fair, there are PGs today who do this better than others.

I suspect Magic might be a Point Forward or something like that.

[bizil]

Not a bad topic by 3ball, for once. I have a feeling though that this will degenerate into more "paint camping" gifs:lol

In the Open Court episode, Isaiah Thomas said Magic today would play center. I don't know about that, and I agree with 3ball again(incredible) that today's way of playing defense is a team effort.

The lack of physicality allowed on the perimeter in the regular season(not so much in these playoffs) and the spacing produced by today's spread offenses, make it difficult to expect PGs to just contain their men on the perimeter. To be fair, there are PGs today who do this better than others.

I suspect Magic might be a Point Forward or something like that.

I saw the Open Court with Isiah when he said that. And I don't know why he would think that Magic's primary position would be center. At times to create the ultimate mismatch he might. But I think Magic would be a PG or a point forward. Just like Bron has done in his career. Either way, Magic would be his team's primary playmaker. Magic is arguably the greatest passer of all time anyway.

So u would be a FOOL to not have him as your primary setup guy. Many say Bird would be stretch PF in today's game. But I could just as easily see Bird as an SF too. Either way, he would be arguably the best player in the world. With guys like Bird and Magic, they are so versatile they are gonna dominate ANYWAY!

[Eric Cartman]

Even if you're right OP, like what's the point of all these posts? To raise your self-esteem?

Man up don't make me smack you fvcker.

[3ball]

Yo 3ball you forgot to mention Jordan



My bad


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/4f2bc467a6f4e6ba3f9e9adeeb4cc57d.gif


Just think how much more he'd dominate WITH spacing.. :bowdown:

Even though MJ would dominate much more in today's game with shooters perpetually spreading the court and opening up the middle of the floor for him, he'd actually be a worse basketball player - he'd use inferior moves than what he needed in the no-spacing environments of previous eras and his repertoire would be much weaker.

In today's game, he'd use the spacing to get a much higher proportion of clean looks - his efficiency would be sick, while still undertaking his typical league-leading volume.. But again, he'd be using less sophisticated moves and actually be a WORSE basketball player.. So while high-level moves like this (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11064438&postcount=38) and passes that thread needles like this (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=355658&page=44) were necessary to mitigate defenders in no-spacing environments, they'd be unnecessary in today's game.

For one thing, MJ wouldn't posterize paint-camping 7-footers at the rim like he used to, since paint-camping has been banned.. Instead, those 7-footers are now shading on the perimeter - so instead of finishing on them at the rim like previous eras, MJ would blow by them on the perimeter in today's game (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374490), which is expected of a perimeter ballhandler and not nearly as impressive.

[gcvbcat]

Kobe & Michael could play SG & average close to double digit assists easily if they wanted to.

[3ball]

I have a feeling though that this will degenerate into more "paint camping" gifs


There is nothing degenerating about showcasing the paint-camping of previous eras - it's just that YOU can't produce any paint-camping GIF's from THIS era because it's been banned.





In the Open Court episode, Isaiah Thomas said Magic today would play center.


Isiah appears unaware how much of an insult that is to the guy that currently stands as the GOAT passer and floor general - elite floor generals and passers have only ever played point guard.. Hey, it's no big deal to have been wrong on this - I just realized it the other day myself.

It makes sense - if you were a coach and you had a guy who was a 12 APG passer, you'd but him at PG.. Don't try to convince me that you'd be the first coach in the history of the game to start a 10+ APG passer at a non-point guard position.. Since the game was invented, coaches have started 10+ APG passers at point-guard 100% of the time with no exceptions - like, 50,931 out of 50,931 times at all levels of basketball.





I agree with 3ball again(incredible) that today's way of playing defense is a team effort.


Obviously, team defense has been played since the game was invented.. But your post implies that you think man-to-man defenders can't play off their man (which is where team defense begins) - this is the exact opposite of the truth.. Not only does a cursory eye test show that previous era defenders played off their man every possession as a standard, but man-to-man defenders have been taught since the very beginnings of basketball to play off their man - it's considered bad man-to-man defense to hug your man.

This is common knowledge by anyone who knows basic basketball rules or played on any level.. But furthermore, Rule 2a (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of Illegal Defense Guidelines says "weakside defenders may remain in the inside lane for 2.9 seconds", which permits defenders to sag all the way back into the paint for 2.9 seconds when their man is behind the corner or sideline 3-point line.

Again, this is nothing new - man-to-man defense has always allowed defenders to sag off their man - check out the defensive setup on MJ's last shot vs. Utah (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qeGR96SGzA) - Stockton, Hornacek and Malone are sagging off 3-point shooters and standing on the edge of the paint - that's the standard setup today and in all previous eras since the inception of the 3-point line.. And again, defenders can sag all the way into the paint for 2.9 seconds when their man is behind the corner or sideline 3-point line.

Of course, we already know that previous era defenses shaded big-time on screen rolls (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358589&page=8).





I suspect Magic might be a Point Forward or something like that.


But he would start at point guard every game, regardless of who he defended.. Otherwise, he would be the very first 10+ APG passer to start at a non-point guard position.. So I'd bet the other way on that one - coaches always put elite passers like that (10+ APG passers) at point guard... Always.

Btw, Magic was a very athletic player, especially in the early and middle part of his career:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldviqmhkR4E&t=3m03s (over your boy)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYJM5LTMokU&t=1m16s (next terrestrial handles)
.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Huh, because he's the GOAT PG? :confusedshrug: :rolleyes:

What difference in today's game would not allow him to play point just like he did? Nothing really...

And he could play plenty of different positions but he was more impactful at the point.
Also, that whole talk about him playing center in game6 of the 1980 Finals is overblown... People need to watch games before opening their mouth.
Jim Chones was the one guarding Dawkins (Philly's C) and shutting down the middle. On offense Magic switched it up and would be "anywhere", playing plenty as a center yea... Erving, Caldwell Jones, Mo Cheeks, even Bobby Jones and Dawkins all got to guard him.




Btw, Magic was a very athletic player, especially in the early and middle part of his career:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldviqmhkR4E&t=3m03s (over your boy)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYJM5LTMokU&t=1m16s (next terrestrial handles)
.

Magic's athleticism is sometimes underrated, nowadays (same for Bird). He played PG not just due to being an unreal passer/playmaker, a great ball-handler and wonderful at running an offense/controlling the tempo, but also because he had the athleticism to do so... The mobility, the speed and the lateral quickness to play point... Fact that he was 6'8 is just a (huge) plus.
For example, if Bird had those same athletic attributes he'd be playing PG a whole lot more too, but he didn't have the lateral quickness to do it as effectively as Magic, to say the least.

People then say stuff like he couldn't guard a telephone post, that he would get blown by, by everybody... 1st of all, tell me how many 6'8 players can really guard PG's like Isiah, Gus Williams, World Free, Sleepy Floyd, Price, K Johnson or Stockton?
And yea, he was never a good defensive player but don't overblow it, and don't just think it was just because of athleticism; you got plenty of great athletes who were never good defenders, for example.
Magic was pretty versatile on D though, could use his size well too, smart and got steals to turn them into fb opportunities, but he was never what you call a good defender, plus he played with some great defensive players too.

[bizil]

Huh, because he's the GOAT PG? :confusedshrug: :rolleyes:

What difference in today's game would not allow him to play point just like he did? Nothing really...

And he could play plenty of different positions but he was more impactful at the point.
Also, that whole talk about him playing center in game6 of the 1980 Finals is overblown... People need to watch games before opening their mouth.
Jim Chones was the one guarding Dawkins (Philly's C) and shutting down the middle. On offense Magic switched it up and would be "anywhere", playing plenty as a center yea... Erving, Caldwell Jones, Mo Cheeks, even Bobby Jones and Dawkins all got to guard him.




Magic's athleticism is sometimes underrated, nowadays (same for Bird). He played PG not just due to being an unreal passer/playmaker, a great ball-handler and wonderful at running an offense/controlling the tempo, but also because he had the athleticism to do so... The mobility, the speed and the lateral quickness to play point... Fact that he was 6'8 is just a (huge) plus.
For example, if Bird had those same athletic attributes he'd be playing PG a whole lot more too, but he didn't have the lateral quickness to do it as effectively as Magic, to say the least.

People then say stuff like he couldn't guard a telephone post, that he would get blown by, by everybody... 1st of all, tell me how many 6'8 players can really guard PG's like Isiah, Gus Williams, World Free, Sleepy Floyd, Price, K Johnson or Stockton?
And yea, he was never a good defensive player but don't overblow it, and don't just think it was just because of athleticism; you got plenty of great athletes who were never good defenders, for example.
Magic was pretty versatile on D though, could use his size well too, smart and got steals to turn them into fb opportunities, but he was never what you call a good defender, plus he played with some great defensive players too.

Great post! Magic had PG pace and handles in his game at 6'8. I know many will say Magic didn't have the fancy handles. BUT Magic had EPIC BALL CONTROL! And not many 6'8 players can guard small fast PG's anyway. Only guys 6'6 and above who would even have a chance are guys like MJ, Pippen, Cooper, etc.

And in the annuals of NBA history, not many guys at 6'8 or above could have been great PG's. U could damn near count on one hand. Besides Magic, u got Lebron, Pippen, G Hill, and T-Mac. But the difference with Magic was HE WAS BORN TO PLAY PG!

The other guys had mentalities, freak athletic gifts, or scoring skillsets that were better used at other positions. But Magic's IQ, passing ability, and leadership was made to be a PG. It wasn't a novelty act at all. It was simply THE RIGHT THING TO DO!!

[3ball]

Magic had PG pace and handles in his game at 6'8.


It's well-known and documented that Magic Johnson was 6'9":

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=magic+johnson+height


Also, the difference between Magic and those other guys you mentioned wasn't just that he was 6'9", but he was a 12 APG player, while they were literally half of that.

[Demitri98]

Im trying to figure out the Jordan angle here. Anyone got anything?

Also, Magic Johnson definitely wouldn't guard the point guard position.
I think he's trying to say that MJ is the only non-PG in league history capable of 12+ APG, and the reason he didn't was because he wasn't played at PG.

[3ball]

I think he's trying to say that MJ is the only non-PG in league history capable of 12+ APG, and the reason he didn't was because he wasn't played at PG.


Even though that wasn't the point of the thread, you are actually right - other than MJ (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games), there's never been a 10 APG passer that didn't start at PG - MJ only started at SG because he was an even better scorer than Magic was a passer - there's always going to be an exception for the GOAT, just like Magic represents a ton of exceptions as the GOAT point guard.

But that's how we know Magic would play point guard in today's game - in the history of the game, 10 APG+ passers have always started at PG, which makes sense.. If you were a coach and you had a guy who was a 12 APG passer, you'd but him at PG.. Don't try to convince me that you'd be the first coach in the history of the game to start a 10+ APG passer at a non-point guard position.

Also, the notion that having a big man like Magic play point guard is bad for your defense is false, since big men always have better defensive stats than point guards, and Magic was no different (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374712) - big men rebound more, guard frontcourt players, and therefore occupy and defend the paint much more.
.

[bizil]

It's well-known and documented that Magic Johnson was 6'9":

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=magic+johnson+height


Also, the difference between Magic and those other guys you mentioned wasn't just that he was 6'9", but he was a 12 APG player, while they were literally half of that.

6'8 or 6'9 there is no huge difference. Secondly, I SAID MAGIC was born to play PG!! I truly believe that Bron, Hill, Pippen, or T-Mac could have been great PG's for guys 6'8 or over. BUT they were such dynamic players and freak athletes that they were better off at a SG, SF, or a point forward position. So in a nutshell, WHAT THE **** WAS YOUR POINT??

[bizil]

Even though that wasn't the point of the thread, you are actually right - other than MJ (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games), there's never been a 10 APG passer that didn't start at PG - MJ only started at SG because he was an even better scorer than Magic was a passer - there's always going to be an exception for the GOAT, just like Magic represents a ton of exceptions as the GOAT point guard.

But that's how we know Magic would play point guard in today's game - in the history of the game, 10 APG+ passers have always started at PG, which makes sense.. If you were a coach and you had a guy who was a 12 APG passer, you'd but him at PG.. Don't try to convince me that you'd be the first coach in the history of the game to start a 10+ APG passer at a non-point guard position.

Also, the notion that having a big man like Magic play point guard is bad for your defense is false, since big men always have better defensive stats than point guards, and Magic was no different (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374712) - big men rebound more, guard frontcourt players, and therefore occupy and defend the paint much more.
.

MJ NEVER averaged 10 assists for an entire season though!! MJ's career season average for assists is 8 dimes a game. Which by the way is an EPIC CLIP for a SG. But with that said, non PG's like Bron, Bird, Pippen, Drexler, Wilt, Wade, G Hill etc. have all averaged at least 7 dimes in given seasons. And ALL were great passers PERIOD!

So what's your point when saying ONLY a PG could average certain assists numbers. THEY ARE THE QUARTERBACK!! So they are suppose to have higher assists numbers than everybody else. Jordan could play PG, SG, and SF at EPIC LEVELS! But his best position was SG.

U have guys who are great scorers who are ALSO great passers. Then u have guys who are great passers who are ALSO great scorers. In each case, u have a dominant offensive threat. Typically, I like my PG to be the great passer who can ALSO be a great scorer. That's what Magic was!! And for the record, a guy like Bird had EVERY BIT the vision Magic had.

The MAIN difference was Magic had PG handle and pace to his game. SOMETHING BIRD DIDN'T!! If Bird had Magic's handle and pace, he would have arguably been a big PG too. MJ ACTUALLY had Magic's handle and pace. But MJ's mentality and vision in terms of passing wasn't quite on the level of Magic or Bird. MJ got a lot assists from a score first mentality. Magic and Bird got a lot of assists from being MORE PASS FIRST!!!

[SHAQisGOAT]

It's well-known and documented that Magic Johnson was 6'9":

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=magic+johnson+height


Also, the difference between Magic and those other guys you mentioned wasn't just that he was 6'9", but he was a 12 APG player, while they were literally half of that.

Google it, right? :rolleyes:

I believe Magic was measured at below 6'9, in the Olympics.

If Magic was 6'9, what does that make Bird?

http://static.rogerebert.com/redactor_assets/pictures/far-flung-correspondents/the-magic-of-magic-and-bird/Magic_20Bird_203.png

http://dougmerlino.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/magic-and-bird-II.jpg

http://terceirotempo.bol.uol.com.br/imagens/56/52/43205.jpg

[3ball]

6'8 or 6'9 there is no huge difference. Secondly, I SAID MAGIC was born to play PG!! I truly believe that Bron, Hill, Pippen, or T-Mac could have been great PG's for guys 6'8 or over. BUT they were such dynamic players and freak athletes that they were better off at a SG, SF, or a point forward position. So in a nutshell, WHAT THE **** WAS YOUR POINT??


There isn't a current or former NBA coach, player, or front office person that would say Pippen, Lebron, or Tmac passed anywhere near as well as Magic.. Magic was on the Nash, CP3 and Stockton level, while those other guys are not, plain and simple.

Anyway, you asked the point of the thread, so here you go: Unlike you, there are many people who erroneously believe Magic wouldn't play point guard in today's game, even though there has never been a 10+ APG player that didn't play point guard (except maybe the GOAT, who averaged 30/9/11 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic) over a 24-game stretch at PG, which no other non-PG has come close to ever matching).

They also erroneously believe Magic hurts a team's defense more than other point guards, when the opposite is true.. Magic's defensive stats are better than every point guard in the history of the game (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374712).

This should not be surprising, because Magic was a big man and it's common knowledge that ALL big men have better defensive stats than point guards - big men rebound more, guard frontcourt players, and therefore occupy and defend the paint much more than point guards, just like Magic did.

[Prometheus]

No shit Magic would play point guard. Why do you state obvious shit as if people are doubting it?

Oh and as for those of you saying he wouldn't guard point guards on the other end... I didn't watch basketball in the '80s, but I've watched a ton of footage, and he mostly didn't even guard point guards back then.

[Dr Seuss]

Someone needs to take their aspergers medicine....

[3ball]

If Magic was 6'9, what does that make Bird?


6'9" as he's listed everywhere for his entire career, just like Magic was for his entire career.

The only difference is Larry had that hair in all those pictures you posted.. Also, Magic's posture was slightly more hunched over when relaxed.

[3ball]

and he mostly didn't even guard point guards back then.


Exactly - this is why Magic has far better defensive stats than any point guard ever.

Magic guarded frontcourt players and rebounded way more than point guards, just like ALL big men, so naturally, his defensive stats were far better than any other PG, just like ALL big men.

[bizil]

There isn't a current or former NBA coach, player, or front office person that would say Pippen, Lebron, or Tmac passed anywhere near as well as Magic.. Magic was on the Nash, CP3 and Stockton level, while those other guys are not, plain and simple.

Anyway, the point of the thread is that unlike you, there are many people who erroneously believe Magic wouldn't play point guard in today's game, even though there has never been a 10+ APG player that didn't play point guard (except maybe the GOAT).

They also erroneously believe Magic hurts a team's defense more than other point guards, when the opposite is true.. Magic's defensive stats are better than every point guard in the history of the game (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374712).

This should not be surprising, because Magic was a big man and it's common knowledge that ALL big men have better defensive stats than point guards - big men rebound way more, guard frontcourt players, and therefore occupy and defend the paint much more than point guards, just like Magic did.


R u a fool?? I NEVER said Lebron, Pip, or T Mac could pass as good as Magic. I SAID that at 6'8, all three could have been great PG's! BUT that with their freak athletic ability and other tools that they were better off as a point forward, SF, or SG.

Where u go off track is thinking that guys who average 8 dimes a night AREN'T great passers themselves. Magic is arguably the best passer of all time for sure. However, u can't discredit versatile marvels like Bron, Pippen, Hill, or T Mac either.

One reason why Magic averaged 12 dimes a night is because he often looked to pass first and then pass second. But yet he could still dominate a game scoring. I think Nash also falls in that category too. Stockton and Kidd with that same thought process couldn't do that as consistently. Point forwards like Lebron and G Hill looked pass first and score second.

So even though Bron or G Hill didn't look to pass as much as Magic, they were still pass first kind of players. WHICH IS THE HALLMARK of the point guard position. The difference is Magic could simply see a play before it happened in an epic manner.

[3ball]

I NEVER said Lebron, Pip, or T Mac could pass as good as Magic. I SAID that at 6'8, all three could have been great PG's! BUT that with their freak athletic ability and other tools that they were better off as a point forward, SF, or SG.

The difference is Magic could simply see a play before it happened in an epic manner.


Earlier, you asked the point of the thread, so here you go:

Unlike you, there are many people who erroneously believe Magic wouldn't play point guard in today's game, even though there has never been a 10+ APG player that didn't play point guard (except maybe the GOAT, who averaged 30/9/11 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic) over a 24-game stretch at PG, which no other non-PG has ever come close to matching).

They also erroneously believe Magic hurts a team's defense more than other point guards, when the opposite is true.. Magic's defensive stats are better than every point guard in the history of the game (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374712).

This should not be surprising, because Magic was a big man and it's common knowledge that ALL big men have better defensive stats than point guards - big men rebound more, guard frontcourt players, and therefore occupy and defend the paint much more than point guards, just like Magic did.
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[bizil]

Earlier, you asked the point of the thread, so here you go:

Unlike you, there are many people who erroneously believe Magic wouldn't play point guard in today's game, even though there has never been a 10+ APG player that didn't play point guard (except maybe the GOAT, who averaged 30/9/11 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic) over a 24-game stretch at PG, which no other non-PG has ever come close to matching).

They also erroneously believe Magic hurts a team's defense more than other point guards, when the opposite is true.. Magic's defensive stats are better than every point guard in the history of the game (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374712).

This should not be surprising, because Magic was a big man and it's common knowledge that ALL big men have better defensive stats than point guards - big men rebound more, guard frontcourt players, and therefore occupy and defend the paint much more than point guards, just like Magic did.
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BUT ITS A SMALL MINORITY who think Magic couldn't play PG today. There aren't enough people saying it for you to be making all this fuss about it! To be frank, Isiah on Open Court was THE ONLY PERSON on TV who has said it. And knowing Zeke, he said it because of his past beef with Magic. WE ALL KNOW Zeke holds grudges to the FULLEST!! LOL Every single analyst on the show disagreed with Isiah VEHEMENTLY!! Kenny Smith even said a GM should get fired if he couldn't see that Magic was a PG.

What people question is IF Magic would play PG today. Not IF HE COULD!! It's two totally different questions. OF COURSE Magic could play PG today! But when u factor his versatility OR the team that drafted him, his primary position might not be PG.

And to be honest, I think Magic would be more valuable today from the PG position than he was in the 80's. For one, u can't be as physical on the perimeter these days. Plus Magic was playing in an era or headhunters in general.

A lot of players today COULDN'T have made it in the league back then. The league wasn't as watered down. And u don't have as many pass first PG's in today's game. Let alone a 6'9 one that can dominate scoring on top of it. Magic is simply TIMELESS!!

[Hey Yo]

6'9" as he's listed everywhere for his entire career, just like Magic was for his entire career.

The only difference is Larry had that hair in all those pictures you posted.. Also, Magic's posture was slightly more hunched over when relaxed.
Olajuwon was listed as a 7 footer his whole career but was closer to 6'10. Height's are exaggerated all the time with College and Pro players.

[iamgine]

Magic play SF while Pat Bev becomes the PG. It makes a lot more sense that way.

[SHAQisGOAT]

6'9" as he's listed everywhere for his entire career, just like Magic was for his entire career.

The only difference is Larry had that hair in all those pictures you posted.. Also, Magic's posture was slightly more hunched over when relaxed.

Bird's clearly taller and you're talking about hair? :rolleyes: :lol Look at the shoulders even. Ever seen the two of them together? Not even just by those pictures...

Bird was a legit 6'9 w/o shoes, Magic more like 6'8.5.

Plenty of players' listed heights are different from actual heights, even back in the day (although less).

You really wanna go by listed heights? Please...

[3ball]

But when u factor his versatility OR the team that drafted him, his primary position might not be PG.


See, this ^^^^ is where we disagree - go through the top APG leaders of all time:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_per_g_career.html


Magic is #1, and every other guy in the top 27 is a point guard.. In other words, there has never been a player ANYWHERE NEAR Magic's passing capability that played a position other than point guard.. So it's ludicrous to think he'd play any other position today.

Btw, there's only 12 non-point guards in the top 100, and of course, none until #28 - here are the 12 non PG's in the top 100 (between #28 - #100: Lebron, Jerry West, Larry Bird, Reggie Theus, Wade, Frazier, Drexler, Jordan, Pippen, Warren Jabali, Alvin Robertson, and Eddie Johnson).

Of course, Lebron is by far the most ball-dominant of the group, and the NBA's stats show that he and Harden rank 5th and 8th in the league for % of points scored taking longer than 6 seconds - they are the only 2 non-point guards in the top 50:

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/shots/#!/?sectionName=Touch%20Time%20Range&section=TouchTimeRange&range=Touch%206%2B%20Seconds&sort=FGA_FREQUENCY&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

However, just like Harden, Lebron dominates the ball the more than his own team's starting point guards as well (i.e. Mo Williams, Chalmers, Kyrie) - so really, Lebron is a point guard and has been his entire career.. Of course, the next logical question is why he averaged half the assists of Magic, CP3, Nash, Stockton, etc., despite dominating the ball just as much - and we now this answer - obviously, Lebron was half the passer).

[Young X]

Magic didn't really guard the other PG's back then either. Scott was the one guarding Thomas, KJ, Hardaway, Stockton, etc. Hell, most of the star PG's now don't even guard their own man.

Magic wouldn't have to exert energy on defense and no one would even come close to stopping him on the offensive end.

[oarabbus]

If Magic and Jordan entered the league at the same time, Jordan would be ringless.

[Kvnzhangyay]

See, this ^^^^ is where we disagree - go through the top APG leaders of all time:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_per_g_career.html


Magic is #1, and every other guy in the top 27 is a point guard.. In other words, there has never been a player ANYWHERE NEAR Magic's passing capability that played a position other than point guard.. So it's ludicrous to think he'd play any other position today.

Btw, there's only 12 non-point guards in the top 100, and of course, none until #28 - here are the 12 non PG's in the top 100 (between #28 - #100: Lebron, Jerry West, Larry Bird, Reggie Theus, Wade, Frazier, Drexler, Jordan, Pippen, Warren Jabali, Alvin Robertson, and Eddie Johnson).

Of course, Lebron is by far the most ball-dominant of the group, and the NBA's stats show that he and Harden rank 5th and 8th in the league for % of points scored taking longer than 6 seconds - they are the only 2 non-point guards in the top 50:

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/shots/#!/?sectionName=Touch%20Time%20Range&section=TouchTimeRange&range=Touch%206%2B%20Seconds&sort=FGA_FREQUENCY&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

However, just like Harden, Lebron dominates the ball the more than his own team's starting point guards as well (i.e. Mo Williams, Chalmers, Kyrie) - so really, Lebron is a point guard and has been his entire career.. Of course, the next logical question is why he averaged half the assists of Magic, CP3, Nash, Stockton, etc., despite dominating the ball just as much - and we now this answer - obviously, Lebron was half the passer).

:roll: :roll: Worse passer, yes, but hes still better at passing than mj (and only a bit, if not at all, worse than bird)

[bizil]

Magic play SF while Pat Bev becomes the PG. It makes a lot more sense that way.

In that setup Magic would be the SF-point forward. Magic would still be the primary ball handler on that team. It would allow Harden to focus more on scoring and not have to be the team's primary playmaker. Beverly is a PG because his size is best suited for that. And he's not an explosive enough scorer to be an undersized SG like Iverson, Monta Ellis, etc.

[Young X]

^ Bron averaged 30/10/7 for a 24 game stretch in 2010. Look it up.

[Angel Face]

He would play pg because he's a pg.

:coleman:

[bizil]

See, this ^^^^ is where we disagree - go through the top APG leaders of all time:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_per_g_career.html


Magic is #1, and every other guy in the top 27 is a point guard.. In other words, there has never been a player ANYWHERE NEAR Magic's passing capability that played a position other than point guard.. So it's ludicrous to think he'd play any other position today.

Btw, there's only 12 non-point guards in the top 100, and of course, none until #28 - here are the 12 non PG's in the top 100 (between #28 - #100: Lebron, Jerry West, Larry Bird, Reggie Theus, Wade, Frazier, Drexler, Jordan, Pippen, Warren Jabali, Alvin Robertson, and Eddie Johnson).

Of course, Lebron is by far the most ball-dominant of the group, and the NBA's stats show that he and Harden rank 5th and 8th in the league for % of points scored taking longer than 6 seconds - they are the only 2 non-point guards in the top 50:

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/shots/#!/?sectionName=Touch%20Time%20Range&section=TouchTimeRange&range=Touch%206%2B%20Seconds&sort=FGA_FREQUENCY&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

However, just like Harden, Lebron dominates the ball the more than his own team's starting point guards as well (i.e. Mo Williams, Chalmers, Kyrie) - so really, Lebron is a point guard and has been his entire career.. Of course, the next logical question is why he averaged half the assists of Magic, CP3, Nash, Stockton, etc., despite dominating the ball just as much - and we now this answer - obviously, Lebron was half the passer).

Your a clown dude!! For real!!! Do u realize that Magic's FIRST primary position in the league was as a SG? Do u realize in 1996 when Magic came back that he was a PF-SF? DEPENDING on the situation, Magic would play PG, SG, SF, and PF. BUT his primary or MAIN position during the course of his career was PG!!

Magic was so versatile and great that a team with a great PG already still might draft him for their team. On the Dream Team, Magic and Stockton played TOGETHER at times in the same lineup. In All Star Games, I've seen Magic on the court AT THE SAME TIME with guys like Stockton, Tim Hardaway, KJ, etc. THE GREAT SMALLER PG's were the PG!!

Magic was playing either SG, SF, or PF in those lineups. Magic could also be a great scorer and rebounder so he focused on those facets more in lineups like that. While of course being a great passer.

The LA Clippers ACTUALLY need a SF! If a peak Magic Johnson was a free agent, the Clippers FOR SURE would go after Magic! They would put him at the SF-point forward spot. CP3 would be the PG and primary playmaker. But OF COURSE at times Magic would move around and play different positions too.

[bizil]

See, this ^^^^ is where we disagree - go through the top APG leaders of all time:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_per_g_career.html


Magic is #1, and every other guy in the top 27 is a point guard.. In other words, there has never been a player ANYWHERE NEAR Magic's passing capability that played a position other than point guard.. So it's ludicrous to think he'd play any other position today.

Btw, there's only 12 non-point guards in the top 100, and of course, none until #28 - here are the 12 non PG's in the top 100 (between #28 - #100: Lebron, Jerry West, Larry Bird, Reggie Theus, Wade, Frazier, Drexler, Jordan, Pippen, Warren Jabali, Alvin Robertson, and Eddie Johnson).

Of course, Lebron is by far the most ball-dominant of the group, and the NBA's stats show that he and Harden rank 5th and 8th in the league for % of points scored taking longer than 6 seconds - they are the only 2 non-point guards in the top 50:

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/shots/#!/?sectionName=Touch%20Time%20Range&section=TouchTimeRange&range=Touch%206%2B%20Seconds&sort=FGA_FREQUENCY&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

However, just like Harden, Lebron dominates the ball the more than his own team's starting point guards as well (i.e. Mo Williams, Chalmers, Kyrie) - so really, Lebron is a point guard and has been his entire career.. Of course, the next logical question is why he averaged half the assists of Magic, CP3, Nash, Stockton, etc., despite dominating the ball just as much - and we now this answer - obviously, Lebron was half the passer).

And LASTLY, Lebron's primary position ISN'T PG. He's a point forward!! In Cleveland's lineup he's playing with a score first 6'3 PG Kyrie AND a true 6'7 swingmen in JR Smith. Even though Kyrie looks to score first, his primary position is still PG. He guards the other teams PG AND SIZE WISE PG is his best fit.

When Bron FIRST came in the league, he was a PG. WHY? Because he had a natural 6'7 SG in Ricky Davis. And a true 6'9 SF in Darius Miles. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN point forward and point guard!! Even though guys like Magic, Bron, G Hill, and Pippen would be great in either role!! Over time, Bron was more of point forward because of the lineups he was playing in.

[3ball]

And LASTLY, Lebron's primary position ISN'T PG. He's a point forward!! In Cleveland's lineup he's playing with a score first 6'3 PG Kyrie AND a true 6'7 swingmen in JR Smith. Just because Kyrie looks to score first, his primary position in still PG. He guards the other teams PG AND SIZE WISE PG is his best fit.

When Bron FIRST came in the league, he was a PG. WHY? Because he had a natural 6'7 SG in Ricky Davis. And a true 6'9 SF in Darius Miles. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN point forward and point guard!! Even though guys like Magic, Bron, G Hill, and Pippen would be great in either role!! Over time, Bron was more of point forward because of the lineups he was playing in.


The NBA's player tracking data (http://stats.nba.com/league/player/shots/#!/?sectionName=Touch%20Time%20Range&section=TouchTimeRange&range=Touch%206%2B%20Seconds&sort=FGA_FREQUENCY&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) shows that the top 50 players in percentage of points scored by holding the ball for longer than 6 seconds ARE ALL POINT GUARDS, except Lebron and Harden, and they rank 5th and 8th - so if you dominate the ball more than almost every single point guard in the league and by far the most on your own team, that defines you as a point guard.

Lebron was his obviously his team's point guard alongside Mo Williams and Chalmers, and now he still undertakes more of a PG role than Kyrie, considering he holds the ball for a far greater proportion of the game than Kyrie.. Kyrie is also a score-first guard with a wider offensive repertoire than Lebron.
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[Kvnzhangyay]

^^^^ That holds no water when the stats prove Lebron dominates the ball as much as Stockton, CP3, Nash, and the like, but still averages less assists in the playoffs and Finals than off-ball player MJ at the same age (30).

Currently, thru the age of 30, Lebron averages 6.3 APG in the playoffs and 6.3 in the Finals - thru MJ's first 3-peat (30 years old) he averaged 6.6 APG in the playoffs and 7.9 APG in the Finals.

Also, despite an entire career as a ball-dominator and point guard, with maximum opportunity to put up sick assist numbers, Lebron has never come ANYWHERE NEAR the 30/9/11 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic) MJ put up during his 24-game stretch at PG, which included a stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games.

MJ's point guard numbers so ridiculous and so much better than anything Lebron or any other non-point guard has ever done, that it can't be chalked up as anomalous - that's clearly what MJ's production was as a point guard.

So your fundamental assumption is that passing ability is defined by # of assists? Truth is, passing ability is not defined by # of assists. I could just say that LeBron's career AST/TOV% ratio is +2.77, Michael's is +2.68, or say that Wilt Chamberlain averaged 8.6 assists one season, and 7.8 in another. In addition, Sabonis was easily a much better passer than many PGs, but his career high Apg is 3. Therefore, as you say, it proves that passing ability is not defined by assists.

Also, by your logic about how MJ did not pass as much because he was the main scorer, but could average much more assists if he wanted to, then Lebron does not score as much because he is the main playmaker, but could average much more points if he wanted to.

See whats wrong here?

[3ball]

his (Magic's) primary or MAIN position during the course of his career was PG!!


:biggums: .. Duuuuhh!!!!!!!.. Look at the top APG leaders of all time:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_per_g_career.html


Magic is #1 in career APG, and every other guy in the top 27 is a point guard.

In other words (thread cliffs coming) there has never been a player ANYWHERE NEAR Magic's passing capability that played a position other than point guard.. So it's ludicrous to think he'd play any other position today.

[3ball]

So your fundamental assumption is that passing ability is defined by # of assists? Truth is, passing ability is not defined by # of assists. I could just say that LeBron's career AST/TOV% ratio is +2.77, Michael's is +2.68, or say that Wilt Chamberlain averaged 8.6 assists one season, and 7.8 in another. In addition, Sabonis was easily a much better passer than many PGs, but his career high Apg is 3. Therefore, as you say, it proves that passing ability is not defined by assists.


^^^ These arguments are pretty weak compared to:

1) Despite the stats proving (http://stats.nba.com/league/player/shots/#!/?sectionName=Touch%20Time%20Range&section=TouchTimeRange&range=Touch%206%2B%20Seconds&sort=FGA_FREQUENCY&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) Lebron has enjoyed an entire career with maximum opportunity to accumulate assists as a point guard and league-leading ball-dominator, the normally off-ball MJ (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11064438&postcount=38) performed far better as a point guard (30/9/11 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic)) than Lebron ever has..

2) MJ averaged more assists in the playoffs and Finals thru the age of 30, despite undertaking a 25% greater scoring load in the playoffs (35 PPG to Lebron's 28 PPG), and a whopping 50% higher scoring load in the Finals (36 PPG to 24 PPG).. All on better efficiency - he carried THAT much more scoring load on better efficiency and still averaged more assists, on the highest levels of competition (playoffs and Finals).. That means he's a better passer.
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[3ball]

Also, by your logic about how MJ did not pass as much because he was the main scorer, but could average much more assists if he wanted to, then Lebron doesn't score as much because he's the main playmaker, but could average much more points if he wanted to.


But Lebron DIDN'T score more than Jordan, while Jordan DID average more assists in the playoffs and Finals at the same age (while undertaking a massively bigger scoring load).. So my logic is fine.. try again.

[ThickassGlasses]

But Lebron DIDN'T score more than Jordan, while Jordan DID average more assists in the playoffs and Finals at the same age (while undertaking a massively bigger scoring load).. So my logic is fine.. try again.



^^^ These arguments are pretty weak compared to:

1) Despite the stats proving (http://stats.nba.com/league/player/shots/#!/?sectionName=Touch%20Time%20Range&section=TouchTimeRange&range=Touch%206%2B%20Seconds&sort=FGA_FREQUENCY&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) Lebron has enjoyed an entire career with maximum opportunity to accumulate assists as a point guard and league-leading ball-dominator, the normally off-ball MJ (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11064438&postcount=38) performed far better as a point guard (30/9/11 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic)) than Lebron ever has.

2) MJ averaged more assists in the playoffs and Finals thru the age of 30, despite undertaking a 25% greater scoring load in the playoffs (35 PPG to Lebron's 28 PPG), and a whopping 50% higher scoring load in the Finals (36 PPG to 24 PPG).. All on better efficiency - he carried THAT much more scoring load on better efficiency and still averaged more assists, on the highest levels of competition (playoffs and Finals).. That means he's a better passer.


There's a difference between attacking a defense trying to set up your teammates with a pass, and attacking a defense trying to score but finding and open teammate because they want to stop you from scoring.

LeBron is passive, we know this, he wants to be a point-forward so he tries to (hard) to get his teammates open looks rather than himself. MJ wanted to get his and happened to come across open teammates due to teams focusing on him. Doesn't make him a better passer, it means he might average more assists for stretches or at times, but not a better passer.

That's like saying Westbrook is a better passer than Rubio, Conley, Teague, LeBron, ect... :confusedshrug:

[ThickassGlasses]

And in case your confused, saying MJ isn't the GOAT at 1 specific thing doesn't mean he still isn't the superior player.

[3ball]

:roll: :roll: Worse passer than Magic, yes, but Lebron's still better at passing than mj


^^^^ That holds no water when the NBA's the player-tracking data (http://stats.nba.com/league/player/shots/#!/?sectionName=Touch%20Time%20Range&section=TouchTimeRange&range=Touch%206%2B%20Seconds&sort=FGA_FREQUENCY&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) shows Lebron ranks 8th in the league's ball-dominance stat, defined as: "percentage of points scored with greater than 6 seconds of touch time" - 37.5% of Lebron's points are scored by taking longer than 6 seconds (8th in entire league) - he and Harden were the only non-PG's in the top 50.. :eek:

Considering Lebron is more ball-dominant (8th in entire league) than even the most ball-dominant PG's, his lower career assist averages than MJ's off-ball game achieved thru age 30 in the playoffs and Finals can only mean MJ was the better passer..

The higher assist numbers despite playing OFF (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11064438&postcount=38)-ball are especially startling considering MJ was undertaking a much higher scoring load on better efficiency as well (34 ppg/50% fg to Lebron's 28 ppg/48% in playoffs - that's a 25% higher scoring load... 36 PPG/53% to 24 PPG/46% in Finals, or 50% higher scoring load).

Also, MJ was a better passer at Lebron's own game - as a ball-dominating, point guard.. Despite Lebron's entire career as a ball-dominator and point guard (giving him maximum opportunity to accumulate assists), Lebron has never come anywhere near the 30/9/11 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic) MJ put up during his 24-game stretch at PG, which included a stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games.

MJ's point guard numbers were so ridiculous and so much better than anything Lebron or any other non-point guard has ever done, that it can't be chalked up as anomalous - that's clearly what MJ's production was as a point guard.
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[SpanishACB]

It makes sense - if you were a coach and you had a guy who was a 12 APG passer, you'd but him at PG.. Don't try to convince me that you'd be the first coach in the history of the game to start a 10+ APG passer at a non-point guard position.. Since the game was invented, coaches have started 10+ APG passers at point-guard 100% of the time with no exceptions - like, 50,931 out of 50,931 times at all levels of basketball.


flawed logic. You'll never know. Being a PG means you get to average more assists because you have the ball more. Teams could have 2x 10apg players but playing one at SG/less minutes/whatever meant said player never got to average 10apg.

You see. If you had Nash and Magic on the same team, you wouldn't play Magic at PG because it would give you so much flexibility defensively. It doesn't matter if Magic held the ball a lot. Sure Magic is better than Nash, but Magic can playmake from the post and Nash can't, so you accommodate, and play Magic anywhere from SG to PF even though he would still be a main focus in creation.

[Kobe_6/8]

flawed logic. You'll never know. Being a PG means you get to average more assists because you have the ball more. Teams could have 2x 10apg players but playing one at SG/less minutes/whatever meant said player never got to average 10apg.

You see. If you had Nash and Magic on the same team, you wouldn't play Magic at PG because it would give you so much flexibility defensively. It doesn't matter if Magic held the ball a lot. Sure Magic is better than Nash, but Magic can playmake from the post and Nash can't, so you accommodate, and play Magic anywhere from SG to PF even though he would still be a main focus in creation.

In that situation you could have Magic play PG on offense while he guards up elsewhere on defense.

[3ball]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_per_g_career.html


The top 25 career leaders in APG are all point guards.. Magic is #1 overall, with an 11.2 career APG average, ahead of Stockton's 10.5.. There are only 12 non-point guards in the top 100, and the first isn't until #28.

In other words, there has never been a player anywhere near Magic's passing capability that played a position other than point guard - the top 27 career leaders in APG are all point guards!!!.. Think about that.. So it's ludicrous to think Magic would play any other position today.
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