Magic Johnson has the highest Defensive Box Score +/- of any PG ever

[3ball]

Let's forget this whole "shielding Magic on defense" notion - the stats prove he was obviously more detrimental to the OTHER team's defense than he was to his team's defense.

It's a huge benefit and asset to have a point guard legitimately capable of guarding all frontcourt positions - any coach, even one as bad as Scott Brooks can say "Magic, guard bird-fed Ibaka tonight, or, guard garbage Blake Griffin or Barnes" - it's a bigger challenge to the other team to figure out how their short PG is going to defend a 6'9", 10+ APG Center/PF/SF/SG/PG.

Magic legitimately played all 5 positions.. For example, if you tried to start Michael Jordan at PF, he'd average 30/10/6, but his body would break down after 35 games.. Whereas Magic could legitimately play ANY position for 82 games at an elite-passing, All-NBA level.

Also, it shouldn't be surprising that Magic's defensive stats are so much better than all point guards - big men ALWAYS have better defensive stats than point guards - big men rebound more, guard frontcourt players, and therefore occupy and defend the paint much more.
.

[navy]

Blake Griffin is garbage?

[Dr Hawk]

Let's forget this whole "shielding Magic on defense" notion - the stats prove he was obviously more detrimental to the OTHER team's defense than he was to his team's defense.

It's a huge benefit and asset to have a point guard legitimately capable of guarding all frontcourt positions - any coach, even one as bad as Scott Brooks can say "Magic, guard bird-fed Ibaka tonight, or, guard garbage Blake Griffin or Barnes" - it's a bigger challenge to the other team to figure out how their short PG is going to defend a 6'9", 10+ APG Center/PF/SF/SG/PG.

Magic legitimately played all 5 positions.. For example, if you tried to start Michael Jordan at PF, he'd average 30/10/6, but his body would break down after 35 games.. Whereas Magic could legitimately play ANY position for 82 games at an elite-passing, All-NBA level.


:eek: :eek: 3ball?

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Thankfully we know that BPM is a garbage stat for evaluating individual players.

[3ball]

:eek: :eek: 3ball?


MJ can't bang with Malone, Barkley, Moses, Antoine Carr, Oakley and the like for an entire season.

Around game 30, he'd get some nick-nack injury (shoulder or something) and be out for 2 weeks.. Then he'd come back and it would happen again later in the season and might keep happening.

He's a perimeter player.. An off-ball one.. We know he had the physique an skills to play point guard (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games) at an all-time level for 82 games, but asking him to play PF or Center for an entire season isn't realistic... But with Magic, there was no such line that couldn't be crossed.
.

[Eric Cartman]

Lebron could guard all positions more effectively than Magic.

[3ball]

Lebron could guard all positions more effectively than Magic.
Nah, early in Lebron and Magic's career, Magic guarded the 1-3 better, and also the 4 and 5 better.

Lebron only guarded the 1-3 better for a short period of time (like 2-4 years) and that was only on a 1-on-1 basis.

Now it's pretty close at those positions, while but Magic still guarded the 4 and 5 better.

Btw, Magic was a very athletic player, especially in the early and middle part of his career:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldviqmhkR4E&t=3m03s (over Dr. J)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYJM5LTMokU&t=1m16s (next terrestrial handles)

[kennethgriffin]

magic was known as a poor defender. just 1 more analytic to add to the long list of failures

[3ball]

just 1 more analytic to add to the long list of failures


actually, it makes perfect sense - power forwards and centers like Magic always have way better defensive stats than point guards.. They naturally rebound way more and defend in the paint way more.

[SugarHill]

actually, it makes perfect sense - power forwards and centers like Magic always have way better defensive stats than point guards.. They naturally rebound way more and defend in the paint way more.
Magic still isn't guarding anyone on the perimeter

[3ball]

Magic still isn't guarding anyone on the perimeter


I'd rather have him on my defense than chris paul or nash, who don't rebound nearly as much and don't guard the paint nearly as often.

The stats show that he was better for a defense, like any big man would be.

[GimmeThat]

He probably takes away a lot of jump shots off pick and roll.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Until you cite a better stat than DBPM you haven't shown anything. I thought that BPM as a whole had been effectively debunked here as it fails to legitimately isolate an individual's impact from the effects of their teammates. Hence the new focus on RAPM.

[3ball]

Until you cite a better stat than DBPM you haven't shown anything.


The data is pretty definitive - the numbers aren't remotely close - Magic has FAR higher DPBM than CP3, Nash, Gary Payton and every other point guard, so it's outside any margin of error.

And again, it's intuitive - big men ALWAYS have better defensive stats than point guards - big men rebound more, guard frontcourt players, and therefore occupy and defend the paint much more..

So we should EXPECT Magic's defensive stats to be much better than all other PG's, just like ANY big man's would be.. so naturally, Magic's are too.. :confusedshrug:

[tmacattack33]

Let's forget this whole "shielding Magic on defense" notion - the stats prove he was obviously more detrimental to the OTHER team's defense than he was to his team's defense.

It's a huge benefit and asset to have a point guard legitimately capable of guarding all frontcourt positions - any coach, even one as bad as Scott Brooks can say "Magic, guard bird-fed Ibaka tonight, or, guard garbage Blake Griffin or Barnes" - it's a bigger challenge to the other team to figure out how their short PG is going to defend a 6'9", 10+ APG Center/PF/SF/SG/PG.

Magic legitimately played all 5 positions.. For example, if you tried to start Michael Jordan at PF, he'd average 30/10/6, but his body would break down after 35 games.. Whereas Magic could legitimately play ANY position for 82 games at an elite-passing, All-NBA level.

Also, it shouldn't be surprising that Magic's defensive stats are so much better than all point guards - big men ALWAYS have better defensive stats than point guards - big men rebound more, guard frontcourt players, and therefore occupy and defend the paint much more.
.


:wtf:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

I'm not denying that Magic is the GOAT PG, I don't think anyone does. Just trying to say that there are better measures than BBPM to show that. :cheers:

[3ball]

I'm not denying that Magic is the GOAT PG, I don't think anyone does.

Just trying to say that there are better measures than BBPM to show that.


Again, the data is pretty definitive - the numbers aren't remotely close - Magic has FAR higher DPBM than CP3, Nash, Gary Payton and every other point guard, so it's outside any margin of error.

And again, it's intuitive - big men ALWAYS have better defensive stats than point guards - big men rebound more, guard frontcourt players, and therefore occupy and defend the paint much more..

So we should EXPECT Magic's defensive stats to be much better than all other PG's, just like ANY big man's would be.. so naturally, Magic's are too.. :confusedshrug:

[Kvnzhangyay]

Again, the data is pretty definitive - the numbers aren't remotely close - Magic has FAR higher DPBM than CP3, Nash, Gary Payton and every other point guard, so it's outside any margin of error.

And again, it's intuitive - big men ALWAYS have better defensive stats than point guards - big men rebound more, guard frontcourt players, and therefore occupy and defend the paint much more..

So we should EXPECT Magic's defensive stats to be much better than all other PG's, just like ANY big man's would be.. so naturally, Magic's are too.. :confusedshrug:

So are you telling me magic is a better defneder than Parish?

[3ball]

So are you telling me magic is a better defneder than Parish?


Magic had a greater defensive impact than any point guard.

So did Parish.

But for the purposes of this discussion, it makes no difference who had the greater defensive impact between Magic and Parish - it only matters that they both had a greater defensive impact than any point guard, as any big man would be expected to do.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I agree with the OP Magic Johnson was clearly a better defender than Michael Jordan as evidenced by his superior defensive box score numbers in the 90s.

[sd3035]

Let's forget this whole "shielding Magic on defense" notion - the stats prove he was obviously more detrimental to the OTHER team's defense than he was to his team's defense.

It's a huge benefit and asset to have a point guard legitimately capable of guarding all frontcourt positions - any coach, even one as bad as Scott Brooks can say "Magic, guard bird-fed Ibaka tonight, or, guard garbage Blake Griffin or Barnes" - it's a bigger challenge to the other team to figure out how their short PG is going to defend a 6'9", 10+ APG Center/PF/SF/SG/PG.

Magic legitimately played all 5 positions.. For example, if you tried to start Michael Jordan at PF, he'd average 30/10/6, but his body would break down after 35 games.. Whereas Magic could legitimately play ANY position for 82 games at an elite-passing, All-NBA level.

Also, it shouldn't be surprising that Magic's defensive stats are so much better than all point guards - big men ALWAYS have better defensive stats than point guards - big men rebound more, guard frontcourt players, and therefore occupy and defend the paint much more.
.

Agreed, MJ was an overrated scrawny system player wimp. He'd get crushed in today's league BTW

[Kvnzhangyay]

Magic had a greater defensive impact than any point guard.

So did Parish.

But for the purposes of this discussion, it makes no difference who had the greater defensive impact between Magic and Parish - it only matters that they both had a greater defensive impact than any point guard, as any big man would be expected to do.

Also, your title is wrong. Jason Kidd, Rajon Rondo, fat lever, and probably others that I didn't see in my quick glance are all higher

[Eric Cartman]

Agreed, MJ was an overrated scrawny system player wimp. He'd get crushed in today's league BTW

Too easy.

[Prometheus]

I'm pretty sure 3ball just made this thread to call Blake Griffin garbage, and all this stuff about Magic Johnson is just side-discussion to hide his agenda.

[3ball]

Also, your title is wrong. Jason Kidd, Rajon Rondo, fat lever
Again, you point out exceptions that accentuate what the norm is: big men generally have greater defensive impact than point guards.

This is why guys like Magic Johnson and Robert Parish have far greater defensive stats than substantially all point guards, as most big men do.

Again, it's intuitive and common knowledge that we all know - bigs like Magic and Parish rebound far more than point guards and they guard frontcourt players - this greater occupation of the paint on defense facilitates the greater defensive impact big men provide over point guards.

Of course, in Magic's case, his status as point guard provided greater defensive problems for OPPONENTS than your typical big man, because the other team had to figure out how their short PG was going to matchup.