Official SG comparison thread: 2006 vs. 1997 vs. 1990

[3ball]

.
.................SG's with 15.0 or Greater PER


..2006...............................1997......... ...................1990

Kobe Bryant..................... Michael Jordan................ Michael Jordan
Dwayne Wade.................. Clyde Drexler.................. Clyde Drexler
Manu Ginobili................... Mitch Richmond............... Joe Dumars
Ray Allen......................... Reggie Miller.................. Reggie Miller
Vince Carter......................Eddie Jones.................... Mitch Richmond
Michael Redd.................... Allan Houston................. Ronaldo Blackmon
Jason Richardson............... Nick Anderson................ Ron Harper
Richard Hamilton............... Latrell Sprewell.............. Alvin Robertson
Joe Johnson...................... Jim Jackson................... Dale Ellis
Mike Miller....................... Steve Smith................... Hersey Hawkins
Bonzi Wells....................... Kendall Gill.................... Fat Lever
Jamal Crawford................. Isiah Rider.................... Jeff Hornacek
Morris Peterson................. Bobby Phills................... Ricky Pierce
Leandro Barbosa................ Jerry Stackhouse............ Jeff Malone


With no spacing in previous eras, the option of running offense to shift the spaced-out defenders and get an open shot wasn't available, so players had to settle for contested shots more often.. When teams don't run as much offense and settle for contested shots instead, pace and shot volume increase.

The volume shooting associated with 2-pointer basketball and the wider repertoires needed to navigate defenders in closer proximity enabled previous era wings to put more pressure on defenders than today's wings - higher volume and wider repertoires meant previous eras wings were more of a threat to have a big game than today's 3-and-D players.

Otoh, today's game requires a slower pace - the spacing necessitates running more offense to shift the spaced-out defenders and set up open 3-point looks.. Also, smaller offensive repertoires are necessary for the wider lanes provided by 3-point shooting and spacing-out environments.. Naturally, it's not surprise that today's 3-and-D wings are less of a threat to go off for a big game and pose less of a threat individually to the defense.. Again, this is in contrast to the more diverse mid-range games (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11188520&postcount=37) of previous eras, which enabled repeated contested shots and therefore less time-consuming offense.
.

[Lebron23]

http://i60.tinypic.com/qovipv.jpg

[aj1987]

http://i60.tinypic.com/qovipv.jpg
:roll: :roll:

2006 >>>


Why are you using '97? Why not '95 or '96?

[3ball]

:roll: :roll:

2006 >>>


Why are you using '97? Why not '95 or '96?
1997 is a strong guard year.. including point guards (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354794).

So 1997 can match 2006, but again, I think 1990 clearly reaches a higher level of two-way ability than either.. Comparing the forwards (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353319) is ridiculous.

[aj1987]

1997 is a strong guard year.. including point guards (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354794).

So 1997 can match 2006, but again, I think 1990 clearly reaches a higher level of two-way ability than either.. Comparing the forwards (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353319) is ridiculous.
See, that's why you're a cherry picking retard. The '00's were consistently good with F's and G's. More so than the '90's. That's why you resort to using single years. Otherwise everyone would see your posts (they still do) for the garbage they are.

[3ball]

See, that's why you're a cherry picking retard. The '00's were consistently good with F's and G's. More so than the '90's. That's why you resort to using single years. Otherwise everyone would see your posts (they still do) for the garbage they are.
It's not cherry-picking because I'm using the supposed strongest year of modern SG's of 2006, and exposing the myth of new fans who it's the best SG class.

Ditto on point guards - I'm using the strongest year (2014 or this year) and comparing it to a reasonably strong year from a prior era - however, I do think 2014 has the distinct edge at PG.. But at virtually every other position, they're well behind.
.

[aj1987]

It's not cherry-picking because I'm using the supposed strongest year of modern SG's of 2006, and exposing the myth of new fans who it's the best SG class.

Ditto on point guards - I'm using the strongest year (2014 or this year) and comparing it to a reasonably strong year from a prior era.. With regards to PG's, I do think 2014 has the distinct edge.. But at virtually every other position, they are well behind.
:facepalm

God, you're dumb. Kobe played a shit ton years against ELITE competition at his position. More than MJ.

[3ball]

Kobe played against ELITE competition at his position. More than MJ.


.
Kobe's Best Defenders (All-NBA Defense Only)

Shawn Marion
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Lebron James
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest
Thabo Sefalosha
Raja Bell
Tony Allen
Shane Battier
Dwayne Wade
Doug Christie
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton
Larry Hughes



MJ's Best Defenders (All-NBA Defense Only)

Dennis Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858)
Gary Payton
Michael Cooper (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376404)
Derrick McKey (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10536861&postcount=264)
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
John Starks
Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)
Doug Christie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s)
Clifford Robinson
Anthony Mason
Nate McMillan
Kevin Garnett (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352753)
Dan Majerle
Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ)
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Jason Kidd (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FERPEtMYpes)
Bobby Phills



MJ's Best Two-Way Opponents:

Penny Hardaway (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692264&postcount=24)
Grant Hill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10667322#post10667322)
Kobe Bryant (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365450)
Clyde Drexler (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695321&postcount=8)
Dominique Wilkins (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744903&postcount=25)
Ron Harper
Reggie Lewis (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989)
Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y)
Sean Elliot
Michael Finley
Kendall Gill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744186&postcount=18)
Richard Dumas (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692400&postcount=30)
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse


Also, the list above doesn't include many of the tremendous offensive wings that MJ faced including: Dr. J, James Worthy, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond, Alex English, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Jeff Malone, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034)
.

[aj1987]

Revised list:

Shawn Marion
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Lebron James
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest
Thabo Sefalosha
Raja Bell
Tony Allen
Shane Battier
Chris Paul
Kevin Garnett
Dwyane Wade
Rajon Rondo
Kirk Hinrich
Jason Kidd
Chauncey Billups
Larry Hughes
Eric Snow
Doug Christie
Gary Payton
Scottie Pippen
Michael Jordan
Dennis Rodman (was All-D during Kobe's rookie season)

Also, since we're including PF's, lets add KG and Timmy to Kobe's list.

So, in all, Kobe played against 29 All-Defensive team members. MJ? 17. :oldlol:

EDIT: How the **** did you miss Wade and Kidd, you chipmunk?

[3ball]

Also, since we're including PF's, lets add KG and Timmy to Kobe's list.


We're talking wing players - SG's and SF's only, and only All-NBA defenders.. No point guards, PF's, or non-All-NBA.. no stiffs.. you added a bunch of trolly stiffs to your list.

Garnett was included on the previous era list because he played SF the entire 2002 season, as did MJ, and the two were matched up head-to-head in their first meeting.. 38-year-old MJ destroyed a prime KG, so it was material.. Otoh, Kobe never played SF and was never matched up head-to-head with KG.
.

[aj1987]

We're talking wing players - SG's and SF's only, and only All-NBA defenders.. No point guards, PF's, or non-All-NBA.. no stiffs.. you added a bunch of trolly stiffs to your list.

Garnett was included on the previous era list because he played SF the entire 2002 season, as did MJ, and the two were matched up head-to-head in their first meeting.. 38-year-old MJ destroyed a prime KG, so it was material.. Otoh, Kobe never played SF and was never matched up head-to-head with KG.

You shouldn't be surprised the previous era wing and big men were so much better.. Faster pace/volume shooting is enabled when teams are willing to settle for contested shots and not run as much offense (as the elite mid-range repertoires of previous era wings allowed, while 3-point shooting requires running offense)..

The volume shooting of 2-pointer basketball and the superior repertoires needed to navigate no-spacing afforded previous era wings the capacity to have big scoring games far more often, thus putting greater pressure on defenses than today's 3-and-D wing.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

You're an idiot.

Kobe faced better competition and that a FACT. He destroyed 29 All-D players. MJ? 17.

[3ball]

You're an idiot.

Kobe faced better competition and that a FACT. He destroyed 29 All-D players. MJ? 17.


Your list includes small point guards and PF's that never guarded Kobe heads-up for any material amount of time.

I can include Shawn Kemp, Larry Nance, Ray Richardson, Mookie Blaylock, TJ Dunn, Otis Thorpe, Robert Horry (http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Blows_By_Robert_a06301d352c7c9a7a26 53e80f329d83b.gif), David Robinson, Derek Harper, and tons of guys, but an ACCURATE list would be the guys that actually spent a material amount of time guarding MJ heads-up - that's what the OP list shows.
.

[Genaro]

Where's Allen Iverson? Wait, it's a 3ball thread, nevermind.

[aj1987]

Your list includes small point guards and PF's that never guarded Kobe heads-up for any material amount of time.

I can include Shawn Kemp, Larry Nance, Ray Richardson, Mookie Blaylock, TJ Dunn, Otis Thorpe, Robert Horry (http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Blows_By_Robert_a06301d352c7c9a7a26 53e80f329d83b.gif), David Robinson, Derek Harper, and tons of guys, but an ACCURATE list would be the guys that actually spent a material amount of time guarding MJ heads-up - that's what the OP list shows.
29 All-Defensive players vs 17. Dat weak ass cream puff era doe. :roll:

[3ball]

Where's Allen Iverson? Wait, it's a 3ball thread, nevermind.
He played PG in 2006, just like Penny Hardaway did in 1997.

Tmac played SF in 2006, just like Grant Hill did in 1997.

[3ball]

Dat weak ass cream puff era doe. :roll:


Don't be surprised the previous era list looks so much better - the 2-pointer basketball played in previous eras and the no-spacing it created resulted in faster pace/volume shooting and more diverse offensive repertoires.

Faster pace/volume shooting is enabled when you're willing to settle for contested shots and not run as much offense - the elite mid-range repertoires of previous era wings allowed for more contested shots, while today's 3-point shooting requires running offense to work the spacing and get open looks.

The volume shooting of 2-pointer basketball coupled with the superior repertoires needed to navigate no-spacing afforded previous era wings the capacity to have big scoring games far more often, thus putting greater pressure on defenses than today's 3-and-D wing - no spacing simply produced more offensively compentant players.

[aj1987]

Don't be surprised the previous era list looks so much better - the 2-pointer basketball played in previous eras and the no-spacing it created resulted in faster pace/volume shooting and more diverse offensive repertoires.

Faster pace/volume shooting is enabled when you're willing to settle for contested shots and not run as much offense - the elite mid-range repertoires of previous era wings allowed for more contested shots, while today's 3-point shooting requires running offense to work the spacing and get open looks.

The volume shooting of 2-pointer basketball coupled with the superior repertoires needed to navigate no-spacing afforded previous era wings the capacity to have big scoring games far more often, thus putting greater pressure on defenses than today's 3-and-D wing - no spacing simply produced more offensively compentant players.

All-Def players Kobe faced:

Shawn Marion
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Lebron James
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest
Thabo Sefalosha
Raja Bell
Tony Allen
Shane Battier
Chris Paul
Kevin Garnett
Dwyane Wade
Rajon Rondo
Kirk Hinrich
Jason Kidd
Chauncey Billups
Larry Hughes
Eric Snow
Doug Christie
Gary Payton
Scottie Pippen
Michael Jordan
Dennis Rodman
Kawhi Leonard

All-Def players MJ faced:

Dennis Rodman
Gary Payton
Michael Cooper
Derrick Mckey
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
Shawn Marion
Doug Christie
Clifford Robinson
Anthony Mason
Nate McMillan
Latrell Sprewell
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson

[3ball]

You're an idiot.

Kobe faced better competition and that a FACT. He destroyed 29 All-D players. MJ? 17.


You included a bunch of guys that didn't guard Kobe - ANYONE can just go through the list of all-league defenders and put every single name down - in that case, MJ and Kobe have faced the exact same number.

But the only thing that matters is comparing the defenders who guarded them heads-up a material amount of the time - and comparing the overall quality of each group, not counting the exact number.. That's what the OP list did.

[aj1987]

You included a bunch of guys that didn't guard Kobe - ANYONE can just go through the list of all-league defenders and put every single name down - in that case, MJ and Kobe have faced the exact same number.

But the only thing that matters is comparing the defenders who guarded them heads-up a material amount of the time - and comparing the overall quality of each group, not counting the exact number.. That's what the OP list did.
http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma52qzVsRo1rvwttvo1_500.gif

[ArbitraryWater]

Can't believe I'm going with 3ball here..this dude aj including MJ, Rodman n shit as players who guarded Kobe...

[G0ATbe]

So basically 2000s were superior to the 90s. Thanks for proving what I already knew:applause: .

[3ball]

.
All-Defense players Kobe faced:

Shawn Marion
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Lebron James
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest
Thabo Sefalosha
Raja Bell
Tony Allen
Shane Battier
Chris Paul
Kevin Garnett
Dwyane Wade
Rajon Rondo
Kirk Hinrich
Jason Kidd
Chauncey Billups
Larry Hughes
Eric Snow
Doug Christie
Gary Payton
Scottie Pippen
Michael Jordan
Dennis Rodman
Kawhi Leonard
_________________
27 TOTAL



All-Defense players MJ faced:

Dennis Rodman
Gary Payton
Michael Cooper
Derrick Mckey
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)
Doug Christie
Clifford Robinson
Anthony Mason
Nate McMillan
Latrell Sprewell
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Kobe Bryant
Larry Hughes
Bruce Bowen
Jason Kidd
Shane Battier (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10924107&postcount=24)
Mookie Blaylock
Eddie Jones
Bobby Phills
Ronaldo Blackman
Raja Bell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw&t=8m51s)
Eric Snow
Paul Pressey
Bobby Jones
TR Dunn
Derrick Harper
Rodney McCray
Maurice Cheeks
John Stockton
John Starks
Kevin Garnett (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4)
________________
37 TOTAL
.

[3ball]

.
The above list ^^^^^^ is just to satisfy the aj187's trolling and the faulty logic he used

The real list of all-league defenders that actually guarded these players heads up is below

[3ball]

.
Kobe's Best Defenders (All-NBA Defense Only)

Shawn Marion
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Lebron James
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest
Thabo Sefalosha
Raja Bell
Tony Allen
Shane Battier
Dwayne Wade
Doug Christie
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton
Larry Hughes



MJ's Best Defenders (All-NBA Defense Only)

Dennis Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858)
Gary Payton
Michael Cooper
Derrick Mckey
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
John Starks
Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)
Doug Christie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s)
Clifford Robinson
Anthony Mason
Nate McMillan
Kevin Garnett (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352753)
Dan Majerle
Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ)
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Jason Kidd (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FERPEtMYpes)
Bobby Phills



MJ's Best Two-Way Opponents:

Penny Hardaway (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692264&postcount=24)
Grant Hill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10667322#post10667322)
Kobe Bryant (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365450)
Clyde Drexler (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695321&postcount=8)
Dominique Wilkins (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744903&postcount=25)
Ron Harper
Reggie Lewis (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989)
Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y)
Sean Elliot
Michael Finley
Kendall Gill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744186&postcount=18)
Richard Dumas (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692400&postcount=30)
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse


Also, the list above doesn't include many of the tremendous offensive wings that MJ faced including: Dr. J, James Worthy, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond, Alex English, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Jeff Malone, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034)
.

[3ball]

.
.................SG's with 15.0 or Greater PER


..2006...............................1997......... ...................1990

Kobe Bryant..................... Michael Jordan................ Michael Jordan
Dwayne Wade.................. Clyde Drexler.................. Clyde Drexler
Manu Ginobili................... Mitch Richmond............... Mitch Richmond
Ray Allen......................... Reggie Miller.................. Reggie Miller
Vince Carter......................Eddie Jones.................... Joe Dumars
Michael Redd.................... Allan Houston................. Ronaldo Blackmon
Jason Richardson............... Nick Anderson................ Ron Harper
Richard Hamilton............... Latrell Sprewell.............. Alvin Robertson
Joe Johnson...................... Jim Jackson................... Dale Ellis
Mike Miller....................... Steve Smith................... Hersey Hawkins
Bonzi Wells....................... Kendall Gill.................... Fat Lever
Jamal Crawford................. Isiah Rider.................... Jeff Hornacek
Morris Peterson................. Bobby Phills................... Ricky Pierce
Leandro Barbosa................ Jerry Stackhouse............ Jeff Malone


1990 has a significant edge due to superior 2-way ability.

Of course, with no spacing in 1990, the option of running offense to work the spaced-out defenders for an open shot wasn't available, so players had to settle for contested shots more often.. When teams don't run as much offense and settle for contested shots instead, pace and shot volume increase.

The volume shooting associated with 2-pointer basketball and the wider repertoires needed to navigate no-spacing (defenders in closer proximity) enabled 1990 wings to put more pressure on defenders than subsequent era wings - higher volume and wider repertoires meant they were more of a threat to go off for a big game than subsequent era wings.

Otoh, today's game requires a slower pace and smaller offensive repertoires to work the spaced-out defenders and run offense to get open 3-point looks.. Naturally, it's not surprise that today's wings are less of a threat to go off for a big game and pose less of a threat individually to the defense.. Again, this is in contrast to the more diverse mid-range games of previous eras, which enabled repeated contested shots and therefore less time-consuming offense.

[aj1987]

Can't believe I'm going with 3ball here..this dude aj including MJ, Rodman n shit as players who guarded Kobe...
I know that you're a LeTurd stan, but when was KG guarding MJ? Dude, You're like 15 years old. Go watch Pokemon on some shit. Basketball is not something you understand. 40 posts per day on one account? You need to go out, kid.

All-Def players Kobe faced:

Shawn Marion
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Lebron James
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest
Thabo Sefalosha
Raja Bell
Tony Allen
Shane Battier
Chris Paul
Kevin Garnett
Dwyane Wade
Rajon Rondo
Kirk Hinrich
Jason Kidd
Chauncey Billups
Larry Hughes
Eric Snow
Doug Christie
Gary Payton
Scottie Pippen
Michael Jordan
Dennis Rodman
Kawhi Leonard

All-Def players MJ faced:

Dennis Rodman
Gary Payton
Michael Cooper
Derrick Mckey
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
Shawn Marion
Doug Christie
Clifford Robinson
Anthony Mason
Nate McMillan
Latrell Sprewell
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson

3ball, you do realize that half the players you listed NEVER made an All-Def team when MJ was playing, right? Some of them NEVER even made the All-Def team.

It's still 29-17, kid. MJ played against weak ass players. An era with literal cream puffs. Kobe would've done worse to those defenders than he did with that chick in Colorado.

[Smoke117]

Just ban this c*ck sucker till the playoffs are over. The summer is ripe for tiresome bullshit. He'd probably have a complete Michael Jordan thesis written just about the time the playoffs end.

[jimmybball]

http://i60.tinypic.com/qovipv.jpg

:roll:

[Type 2]

Dat weak ass cream puff era doe. :roll:

You act like cream puffs are bad. Have you even had a cream puff?

[3ball]

.
MJ vs. Michael Cooper ISOLATIONS


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/638675af419b9050031f331b9fec7a15.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/94kSix.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/c2PZU2.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/yQX1hH.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/R5EYHP.gif



Transition:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/dM16Fa.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/lXD9ct.gif
.

[3ball]

.
All-Defensive Team SG's and SF's that guarded Kobe

Shawn Marion
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Lebron James
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest
Thabo Sefalosha
Shane Battier (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10924107&postcount=24)
Tony Allen
Raja Bell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw&t=8m51s)
Dwayne Wade
Doug Christie
Larry Hughes



All-Defensive Team SG's and SF's that guarded MJ

Dennis Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858)
Michael Cooper
Derrick Mckey
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
John Starks
Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)
Doug Christie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s)
Anthony Mason
Clifford Robinson
Nate McMillan
Kevin Garnett (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352753)
Dan Majerle
Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ)
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Bobby Phills



MJ's Best Two-Way Opponents:

Penny Hardaway (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692264&postcount=24)
Grant Hill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10667322#post10667322)
Kobe Bryant (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365450)
Clyde Drexler (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695321&postcount=8)
Dominique Wilkins (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744903&postcount=25)
Ron Harper
Reggie Lewis (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989)
Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y)
Sean Elliot
Michael Finley
Kendall Gill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744186&postcount=18)
Richard Dumas (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692400&postcount=30)
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse


Also, the list above doesn't include many of the tremendous offensive wings that MJ faced including: Dr. J, James Worthy, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond, Alex English, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Jeff Malone, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034)
.

[aj1987]

Do you realize that when MJ faced some of those defenders, he was missing the Playoffs (inb4 age excuse), right? Kobe was killing them and winning rings.

[bizil]

I know that The Golden Era of SG's was the 2000s era. So that would tie into 2006:

Kobe
Wade
T Mac
AI
Ray Ray
Vince
Manu

U are looking at 7 HOFers in that era. In 1990, u aren't gonna have that many HOFers at the SG. And peak wise, the 2000 era SG's will overtake that whole era other than MJ and Drexler. They would push back the rest of the guys. What made the 2000s era BEAST was u had the Golden Era of SG's and PF's going at the same time.

[ImKobe]

06 Kobe is the best player from the 3 lists and Wade 06 comes close

2006 is by far the best.

[Im Still Ballin]

This thread;

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-41349-jonah-hill-oscars-cut-it-out-g-w5Tc.gif

[3ball]

.
VERY FEW SG's and SF's achieve 100+ Dunks in a Season


1988 - 1996......................2001 - 2014

Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Ron Harper ...................... Andre Iguodala
Richard Dumas.................. Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley.................... Richard Jefferson
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Derrick McKey (All NBA Defensive Team)
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris

Sources: basketball-reference.com for 2001-2014; Philadelpia 76'er Media Guides and Harvey Pollack's Statistical Guides for 1988-1996, links for which are in this thread's OP: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399
.

[3ball]

MJ was missing the Playoffs (inb4 age excuse), while Kobe was killing them and winning rings.


"Killing them"???... :facepalm ... Look at Kobe's career averages vs. some dudes on that list:

26 PPG on 43% vs. Bowen: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=bowenbr01

24 PPG on 43% vs. Prince: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=princta01

:whatever:


Otoh, here's MJ's career stats vs. 1990 and 1991 DPOY Dennis Rodman (SF (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374199)) and HOF perennial 1st Team All-Defense Joe Dumars (37 games):

30.5 PPG on 47% vs. Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858)/Dumars: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=rodmade01


Keep in mind, you included washed-up Gary Payton on Kobe's list, and Kobe got OUTPLAYED by washed up Payton.. In 28 games, Kobe only averaged 20.9 PPG on 43% to Payton's 21 PPG on 47%.. Meanwhile, MJ's career averages against prime DPOY Payton was 30.5 PPG on 47% (15 games), and during those games MJ was going up against in-their-prime All-NBA defenders Derrick McKey (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10536861&postcount=264) and Nate McMillan AS WELL:

MJ vs. Payton: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01
Kobe vs. Payton: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=paytoga01
.

[Smoke117]

06 Kobe is the best player from the 3 lists and Wade 06 comes close

2006 is by far the best.

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-47705-michael-jordan-shaking-head-no-PinG.gif

[aj1987]

"Killing them"???... :facepalm ... Look at Kobe's career averages vs. some dudes on that list:

26 PPG on 43% vs. Bowen: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=bowenbr01

24 PPG on 43% vs. Prince: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=princta01

:whatever:


Otoh, here's MJ's career stats vs. 1990 and 1991 DPOY Dennis Rodman (SF (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374199)) and HOF perennial 1st Team All-Defense Joe Dumars (37 games):

30.5 PPG on 47% vs. Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858)/Dumars: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=rodmade01


Keep in mind, you included washed-up Gary Payton on Kobe's list, and Kobe got OUTPLAYED by washed up Payton.. In 28 games, Kobe only averaged 20.9 PPG on 43% to Payton's 21 PPG on 47%.. Meanwhile, MJ's career averages against prime DPOY Payton was 30.5 PPG on 47% (15 games), and during those 90's games MJ was going up against in-their-prime All-NBA defenders Derrick McKey (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10536861&postcount=264) and Nate McMillan AS WELL:

MJ vs. Payton: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01
Kobe vs. Payton: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=paytoga01


So you admit that Kobe played against better competition?

29 vs 17. :roll:


Also, stop PM'ing me.

EDIT: Dunking? :roll: Weak ass defenses.

[iamgine]

The problem with this kind of comparison is we tend to think it's the prime version when it's not.

For example, Mitch Richmond was just sophomore in 1990. Reggie Miller was just on his 3rd year, which was the first good year he had. He'd be so far behind a 2006 Ray Allen.

[3ball]

For example, Mitch Richmond was just sophomore in 1990. Reggie Miller was just on his 3rd year, which was the first good year he had. He'd be so far behind a 2006 Ray Allen.


Obviously, it goes both ways - for his career, Kobe faced a WASHED UP Gary Payton for 28 games, yet Payton still averaged 21 PPG to Kobe's 20 PPG.

Whereas MJ got 31 PPG against the mid-90's Sonics THREESOME of prime, DPOY Gary Payton and All-NBA defenders Derrick McKey (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11297382&postcount=36) and Nate McMillan:

Career Averages:

MJ vs. DPOY Payton: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01
Kobe vs. Washed-Up Payton: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=paytoga01





The problem with this kind of comparison


Just looking at the 3 columns of SG's in the OP, all three columns are competitive regardless of which way you lean..

Otoh, all the frontcourt positions of previous eras blow today's game away - this is due to the 3-point shooting, which lessens the need for 2-point skill.. Just look at the SF's - it's quite clear that they blow today's SF's away (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11296175&postcount=25) - clearly, diverse mid-range repertoire > 3-and-D..

And obviously, the PF's and Centers of previous eras blow today's bigs away even MORE.

[3ball]

.
MJ Scoring on Michael Cooper OFF-BALL


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/nvySOe.gif

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[3ball]

29 vs 17. :roll:


Troll.. take this L

[3ball]

Kobe's a 6'6" Iverson that happened to play with Shaq.. A fortuitous young man.. :applause:

[iamgine]

Obviously, it goes both ways - for his career, Kobe faced a WASHED UP Gary Payton for 28 games, yet Payton still averaged 21 PPG to Kobe's 20 PPG.

Whereas MJ got 31 PPG against the mid-90's Sonics THREESOME of prime, DPOY Gary Payton and All-NBA defenders Derrick McKey (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11297382&postcount=36) and Nate McMillan:

Career Averages:

MJ vs. DPOY Payton: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01
Kobe vs. Washed-Up Payton: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=paytoga01



Just looking at the 3 columns of SG's in the OP, all three columns are competitive regardless of which way you lean..

Otoh, all the frontcourt positions of previous eras blow today's game away - this is due to the 3-point shooting, which lessens the need for 2-point skill.. Just look at the SF's - it's quite clear that they blow today's SF's away (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11296175&postcount=25) - clearly, diverse mid-range repertoire > 3-and-D..

And obviously, the PF's and Centers of previous eras blow today's bigs away even MORE.
No one's talking about MJ or era. I'm talking about the problem with this kind of comparison.

[3ball]

Two-foot leaping makes a player better at dunking in the half court and in traffic, where a run-up isn't possible to execute a one-foot jump.. This is valuable in the playoffs when the game slows down.

Clearly, a player that is elite jumping off one leg AND two legs, had a big advantage - MJ was elite at BOTH - here's two foot leaping:


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http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/c0CTqB.gif

[3ball]

35/5/5 Games
Jordan: 34
James: 17

40/5/5 Games
Jordan: 17
James: 8

45/5/5 Games
Jordan: 10
James: 5

50/5/5 Games
Jordan: 2
James: 0

55/5/5 Games
Jordan: 2
James: 0

60/5/5 Games
Jordan: 1
James: 0

[3ball]

Kobe played tougher competition


It's a fact that Kobe's prime coincided with the weakest era in NBA history.

From 2002-2006, the NBA couldn't beat Euroleague - literally - they lost to them repeatedly (7 times) on the biggest stage (world stage).

The USA's skills and brand of basketball was so far inferior at that time, that it more than offset their GOAT talent advantage.. That's how weak brand of basketball was that Kobe accumulated his stats against.

*** There's only way to describe an NBA that can't beat Euroleague (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373182): the worst era of all time ***

[3ball]

weak-ass defenses



Modern Defense Theory


Spacing (due to 3-point shooting) makes today's game easier on the offensive end - it's common knowledge that spacing makes EVERYTHING easier on offense.. Driving, passing, and cutting lanes are wider and there's more freedom of movement.. Most importantly, spacing opens up the middle of the floor by forcing defenders to come out of the paint and guard the 3-point line.. Today's teams attempt 22 three-pointers per game, so the floor is spaced at all times.. But in MJ's era - let's say 1991 - teams only attempted 7 three-pointers per game, so there was no floor-spacing.. Even a cursory glance (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866426&postcount=105) at previous era footage shows the severe lack of spacing compared to today's game.

Also, the NBA officially stated that the 2005 rule changes (particularly the hand-check ban) had achieved their objective of increasing penetration (link below).. This is from the source and creator of the new rules, so it's not subjective opinion, similar to how Bill Gates vision for Microsoft would never be considered subjective opinion: http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html

The 2005 rule changes also banned paint-camping via the defensive 3 seconds rule, which requires defenders to vacate the paint within 2.9 seconds unless they remain within "armslength" of their man (about 3 feet) - the defensive 3 seconds rule and it's "armslength" provision is described in the first paragraph of the following NBA.com webpage: http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html.. The paint is a massive 16 x 19 feet, so the "armslength" provision requires today's defenders to stand right next to their man, even when their man is already inside the paint!!!... So a defender cannot stand right under the rim while their man is 8 feet away on the block - the defender must go stand near the block right next to their man.. Having to stand right next to your man is precisely what zone is NOT - indeed, the defensive 3 seconds rule bans zone inside the paint..

Otoh, paint-camping was legal in previous eras.. Did you know that?.. See Rule 2b of the Illegal Defense Guidelines (link below).. Rule 2b allowed defenders to paint-camp ANYWHERE inside the 16 x 19 foot painted area "with no time restriction" if their man was also inside the paint, or within 3 feet of either side.. So a defender COULD stand right under the rim while their man is 8 feet away on the block or even up to 3 feet outside the paint!!.. The 3 feet was denoted by hash marks on both sides of the lane that refs had to eyeball to enforce.. Naturally, refs did a horrible job - defenders frequently camped in the paint while their man was behind the 3-point line seen here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10704674&postcount=97)... Here's the link to the Illegal Defense Guidelines - Rule 2b is the legal paint-camping provision: http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html

In today's game, with paint-camping banned, bigs are forced to come out of the paint to flood and shade in the ballhandler's wheelhouse - the perimeter.. Defending guards on the perimeter is a massive disadvantage for bigs, but today's spacing and paint-camping ban necessitate it - otoh, in previous eras, there was no spacing and paint-camping was legal, so bigs didn't need to come out of the paint to shade on the perimeter - they could just wait right under the rim "with no time restriction", as Rule 2b states.. However, they still did shade in some situations, such as screen roll (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358589&page=8).

To summarize, today's paint-camping ban along with spacing creates a greater need for flooding and shading than previous eras.. Although these partial zones executed outside the paint by slow bigs are easy to beat for perimeter ballhandlers, they provide a bandaid to offset today's spacing, paint-camping ban, and hand-check ban, so defensive effectiveness doesn't fall off a cliff in comparison to previous eras.

It makes sense that the NBA would never take EVERYTHING away from the defense (hand-check ban, physicality ban, paint-camping ban) without giving them something back (zones outside the paint) - the balanced regulatory approach coupled with constant strategic adjustments on both sides of the ball is the reason why league-wide ORtg (how difficult it is to score) has remained between 106-108 for the last 30 years (except from 1998-2004).
.

[iamgine]

You showed me an example of prime/not-prime, and I showed you one - there are examples on both sides.. But overall, the table demonstrates that the SG's from previous eras are as good or better than 2006.

Meanwhile, all the frontcourt positions of previous eras blow today's game away - this is due to the 3-point shooting, which lessens the need for 2-point skill (obviously, less 2-pointers affects the frontcourt more).

Just look at the SF's from previous eras - it's clear they blow today's SF's away (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11296175&postcount=25) - clearly, diverse mid-range repertoire > 3-and-D..

And obviously, the PF's and Centers of previous eras blow today's bigs away even MORE.
Which is why it's a problem and thus render it rather useless.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/jKb0_s.gif

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[Smoke117]

We ARE talking era - and it's important to remember that the skill needed to play basketball in no-spacing was much higher, which produced superior players, particularly at the SG thru Center positions.

With no spacing in previous eras, the option of running offense to shift the spaced-out defenders and get an open shot wasn't available, so players had to settle for contested shots more often.. When teams don't run as much offense and settle for contested shots instead, pace and shot volume increase.

The volume shooting associated with 2-pointer basketball and the wider repertoires needed to navigate defenders in closer proximity enabled previous era wings to put more pressure on defenders than today's wings - higher volume and wider repertoires meant previous eras wings were more of a threat to go off for a big game than today's 3-and-D players.

Otoh, today's game requires a slower pace - the spacing necessitates running more offense to shift the spaced-out defenders and set up open 3-point looks.. Also, smaller offensive repertoires are necessary for the wider lanes provided by 3-point shooting and spacing-out environments.. Naturally, it's not surprise that today's 3-and-D wings are less of a threat to go off for a big game and pose less of a threat individually to the defense.. Again, this is in contrast to the more diverse mid-range games (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11188520&postcount=37) of previous eras, which enabled repeated contested shots and therefore less time-consuming offense.
.

http://media.giphy.com/media/9JihohFuu1Kik/giphy.gif

[3ball]

Which is why it's a problem and thus render it rather useless.


The lists are just to organize the players in front of you - then it's up to the fan to use their acumen and properly analyze the nuances - but having a list right there in front of you IS helpful.

So far, we have lists showing SG's side-by-side from 1990, 1997, and 2006 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374797).

We listed all of MJ and Kobe's defenders who were All-NBA Defense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374797&page=3).

And we listed the best SF's from 1984-1998 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11296175&postcount=25) for comparison to today's eras.

[Smoke117]

Obviously, it goes both ways - for his career, Kobe faced a WASHED UP Gary Payton for 28 games, yet Payton still averaged 21 PPG to Kobe's 20 PPG.

Whereas MJ got 31 PPG against the mid-90's Sonics THREESOME of prime, DPOY Gary Payton and All-NBA defenders Derrick McKey (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11297382&postcount=36) and Nate McMillan:

Career Averages:

MJ vs. DPOY Payton: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01
Kobe vs. Washed-Up Payton: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=paytoga01


I don't even like Payton and think he's overrated...but how the hell was he washed up in the late 90s and early 2000s you f*cking shit heel?

[3ball]

I don't even like Payton and think he's overrated...but how the hell was he washed up in the late 90s and early 2000s you f*cking shit heel?
14 of Kobe's 28 career games vs. Payton occurred from the 2003 to 2007 seasons, when Payton was no longer All-NBA defense.

Yet even though Kobe faced a WASHED UP Gary Payton, Payton still outplayed Kobe, averaging 21 PPG to Kobe's 20 PPG over their 28 matchups.

Whereas MJ got 31 PPG against the mid-90's Sonics THREESOME of DPOY Gary Payton and All-NBA defenders Derrick McKey (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11297382&postcount=36) and Nate McMillan:

MJ career stats vs. DPOY Payton: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01
Kobe career stats vs. Washed-Up Payton: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=paytoga01

[3ball]

http://media.giphy.com/media/9JihohFuu1Kik/giphy.gif


The NBA now has more definitive ball-dominance data: The data (http://stats.nba.com/league/player/shots/#!/?sectionName=Touch%20Time%20Range&section=TouchTimeRange&range=Touch%206%2B%20Seconds&sort=FGA_FREQUENCY&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) shows Lebron ranking 8th in the NBA's new dominance measure, defined as: "percentage of points scored with greater than 6 seconds of touch time"

37.5% of Lebron's points are scored by taking longer than 6 seconds (8th in entire league) - he and Harden were the only non-PG's in the top 50.. :eek:

Despite Lebron enjoying maximum opportunity to accumulate assists by playing point guard, MJ still got higher assist averages in the playoffs and Finals thru age 30 while playing off (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11064438&postcount=38)-ball.. Since MJ got more assists despite playing off-ball, that means he's the better passer, especially considering he was also undertaking a 25% higher scoring load in the playoffs (34 PPG to Lebron's 28 PPG) and massive 50% higher in the Finals (36 PPG to 24 PPG) all on better efficiency.

Also, MJ was a better passer at Lebron's own game - as a ball-dominating, point guard.. Despite Lebron's entire career as a ball-dominator and point guard (giving him maximum opportunity to accumulate assists), Lebron has never come anywhere near the 30/9/11 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic) MJ put up during his 24-game stretch at PG, which included a stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games.

MJ's point guard numbers were so ridiculous and so much better than anything Lebron or any other non-point guard has ever done, that it can't be chalked up as anomalous - that's clearly what MJ's production was as a point guard.

CLIFFS: MJ was a better passer while playing off-ball (higher assist averages thru age 30 in playoffs and Finals) AND he was better as a ball-dominant point guard (unequaled, 24-game run at PG, including 30/9/11, and 10 triple-doubles in 11 games).
.

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/740c4aeb63705ef81d066269d25f3e54.gif


Just think how much more he'd dominate WITH spacing.. :bowdown:

Even though MJ would dominate much more in today's game with shooters perpetually spreading the court and opening up the middle of the floor for him, he'd actually be a worse basketball player today - he'd use inferior moves than what he needed in the no-spacing environments of previous eras and his repertoire would be much weaker.

In today's game, he'd use the spacing to get a much higher proportion of clean looks - his efficiency would be sick, while still undertaking his typical league-leading volume.. But again, he'd be using less sophisticated moves and actually be a WORSE basketball player.. So while high-level moves like this (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11064438&postcount=38) and passes that thread needles like this (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=355658&page=44) were necessary to mitigate defenders in no-spacing environments, they'd be unnecessary in today's game.

For one thing, MJ wouldn't posterize paint-camping 7-footers at the rim like he used to, since paint-camping has been banned.. Instead, those 7-footers are now shading on the perimeter - so instead of finishing on them at the rim like previous eras, MJ would blow by them on the perimeter in today's game (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374490), which is expected of a perimeter ballhandler and not nearly as impressive.

[tpols]

See, that's why you're a cherry picking retard. The '00's were consistently good with F's and G's. More so than the '90's. That's why you resort to using single years. Otherwise everyone would see your posts (they still do) for the garbage they are.

Who would take barkley and malone over dirk, garnett; and duncan ? :oldlol:

It's like a trio of some of the greatest intangibles and leadership guys ever compared to Known choke artists with questionable character.

and mid 2000 guards is >>>

All the 90s had was better centers.everything else the mid 20 00s was better

[Dr Hawk]

What do you think about this layup (https://youtu.be/Ujp7Ijf3uM8?t=622)?

One of the toughest ever made

[3ball]

Who would take barkley and malone over dirk, garnett; and duncan ? :oldlol:


You mean this Tim Duncan (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10691982&postcount=20).. this Garnett (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10923969&postcount=8)?

I'd take prime Barkley and Malone over Garnett EASILY - KG has never been able to carry a team offensively to the Finals - EVER.. He could never have done what those guys did.. and Duncan's always been better.

As for Dirk - Malone and Barkley are both a rich man's Dirk - superior offensively and rebounding, same (better actually) defensively.

[3ball]

Illegal Defense Rules


2a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds.



As the bolded red shows, previous era defenders could remain INDEFINITELY in the "pro" lane, or the outer partition of the paint - today's defenders can't do that - they have a max of 3 seconds.

For the inner part of the paint (college lane), weakside defenders can stay for up to 3 seconds, just like today's defenders.





2b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).

2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.


Rule 2b is a legal paint-camping provision.

As you can see, defenders were allowed to stay in the paint "with no time limitation" if their man was in the paint already, or "adjacent" to the paint - "adjacent" is defined as when the offensive player is within 3 feet of either side of the paint, as denoted by hash marks on the baseline.. The hash marks are the only thing refs had to eyeball if an offensive player was "adjacent"/within 3 feet, or further than 3 feet/in violation, which is why defenders often camped in the paint while their man was all the way at the 3-point line (no enforcement).

The criteria needed to paint-camp (a defender's man being in the paint or within 3 feet of either side) was always fulfilled in previous eras due to the lack of 3-point shooting and spacing - coaches foolishly ran offenses that didn't shoot threes and positioned players close to the rim, which activated this legal-paint camping provision of Rule 2b.. The full Illegal Defense Guidelines from the NBA rule book are here (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html), also shown at realgm here (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=28840140&sid=f37d422abcb4fb3198dba014bc15f361#p28840140).





2c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side.


Rule 2c is the same thing as today's flooding - but flooding isn't an advantage for today's game.. Today's 3-pointers/spacing and the resulting further distance of help defenders makes offensive players more dangerous when they catch the ball, which necessitates extra tactics so the ballhandler isn't as secluded by the spacing - but the flooding tactic merely makes the concentration of defenders equivalent to an un-spaced court where help defenders were already in closer proximity.

Lack of spacing and closer proximity of help defenders made previous eras better-equipped to handle a player that has the ball without needing risky gambles like flooding, where big men come away from the rim to flood in a mismatch outside the paint.. Instead, the lack of 3-point shooting kept offensive players closer to the paint, which allowed defenders to paint-camp when their man was in the paint or within 3 feet of either side (see Rule 2b above).. Paint-camping is a more equitable way to defend the entire court, without necessitating the extra rotations and leaving guys wide open that flooding requires.






2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds

2d. When an offensive player, with or without the ball, takes a position above the foul line, the defensive player may be no farther (toward the baseline) than the "middle defensive area." Defensive player(s) may enter and re-enter the "lower defensive area" as many times as desired, so long as he does not exceed 2.9 seconds.


Rule 2e above shows that the "upper defensive area" is the area above the FT line extended... This means the "middle defensive area" includes the upper part of the paint.. Rule 2d refers to the "middle defensive area" - the rule allows defenders to stand in the upper part of the paint (middle defensive area) INDEFINITELY when their man is at college 3-point distance (the tip of the circle).

Otoh, today's defenders can never stay in the paint for longer than 3 seconds unless they're within "armslength".. So today's defender isn't allowed to stand in the upper part of the paint while their man is at the college 3-point line (tip of circle), since that's way out of armslength reach.. But previous era defenders COULD stand in the upper part of the paint while their man was at the tip of the circle, so they had more flexibility in this spot.





2e. If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line. (within 2.9 seconds)


This is the same as today - when an offensive player is above the tip of circle, his defender can't sag into the paint for more than 3 seconds.. Rule 2e gives the defender 3 seconds, just like today's rule.

The full Illegal Defense Guidelines from the NBA rule book found here (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html), also shown at realgm here (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=28840140&sid=f37d422abcb4fb3198dba014bc15f361#p28840140)





Today's game has shooting-enforced spacing, not rule-enforced spacing


Today's game has rule-enforced spacing in the paint ("armslength").... and spacing-enforced spacing outside paint via 3-pointers.

Otoh, previous eras didn't have spacing-enforced spacing (no 3's).

They didn't have material rules-enforced spacing either - defenders could paint-camp and they could sag off 3-point shooters to the edge of the paint just like today's defenders.





Elite scorer numbers are down across the board


False - there were only two 30-point scorers in the entire 90's - MJ did it 6 times and Karl Malone once - that's only 2 guys.. But in the 2000's there have been many 30-point scorers.. It's like night and day.

Furthermore, there are only 2 ball-dominators never even broke 25 ppg in the 90's!!!... The game just wasn't set up for ball-dominators back then like it is now.. Otoh, the no spacing and hand-checking of previous eras are the 2 things least conducive to penetration.





ball movement and clever schemes are required for these elite scorers to hit the box score.


False again - over 50% of Harden and Lebron's offense comes from isolations and screen-roll.. It was 60% for Lebron in the playoffs.. 50-60% is standard for point guards and ball-dominators like Harden, Lebron, various other wings, and virtually all PG's.. So offenses aren't more "clever" - it's just one drive-and-kick after another.

One reason teams can use drive-and-kick so easily is because zone is only allowed OUTSIDE the paint.. Inside the 16 x 19 ft paint, defenders must stay within "armslength" (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) (about 3 feet) to remain in the paint, which is the opposite of a zone and the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder.. Yet this strict no-paint-camping, no-zone policy is what governs the most important area of the floor: the paint.





George Karl on how the rule changes have made post ups inefficient


George Karl is wrong..

It's a mathematical fact that without 3-pointers, the efficiency of screen rolls/drive-and-kick plummets and becomes not worthwhile compared to post-ups.. This proves that the decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick.

Since post-ups, mid-range, off-ball and isolations were the only things left in the 80's without the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick back worthwhile, we can say with certainty that Lebron would be half the player back then - he's simply not elite in any of these areas.





2001 - Removal of Illegal Defense Guidelines

Purpose: To encourage ball movement and team play through giving defenses more freedom to defend, particularly help defense from the weak side, which was extremely restricted from 1981-2001 with the Illegal defense guideline in place


The NBA said their rule changes were meant to create superior spacing, which put ALL defenders a further distance away from helping, especially weakside help defenders.

Specifically, the NBA said they wanted to increase drive-and-kick to encourage 3's and make spacing better, so they robbed the defense of their hands (literally) and forced them to keep the paint clear (defensive 3 seconds) to "open up the game".. Here the NBA's official statements on the rule changes:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html
.

[tpols]

You mean this Tim Duncan (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10691982&postcount=20).. this Garnett (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10923969&postcount=8)?

I'd take prime Barkley and Malone over Garnett EASILY - KG has never been able to carry a team offensively to the Finals - EVER.. He could never have done what those guys did.. and Duncan's always been better.

As for Dirk - Malone and Barkley are both a rich man's Dirk - superior offensively and rebounding, same (better actually) defensively.


Garnett and Duncan provide all time great defense at the most important position for defense PF/C. Barkley and malone range from mediocre to below average for defense which makes them a liability especially given the nature of their position.

Dirks offense is >> than barkley and Malone's because it is of the dominant takeover variety and provides incredible spacing.. unlike chuck with his broke long range jumper and Karl whose game is purely in the flow with zero ability to dominate in the clutch like Dirk has.

And that's without taking into account the huge gap in leadership between them, and longevity in barkley case.

[3ball]

Dirks offense is >> than barkley and Malone's because it is of the dominant takeover variety and provides incredible spacing.. unlike chuck with his broke long range jumper and Karl whose game is purely in the flow with zero ability to dominate in the clutch like Dirk has.


Dirk only made 1 three-pointer per game in the 2011 Finals (only 7 in 6 games) - instead, he beat the Heat the exact same way Barkely and Malone would - the post and mid-range - only they'd do it even better.

Btw, I said Duncan was better.. But not Garnett - his offense is a lot of bird-fed, and less kind of offense that can takeover down the stretch - Garnett doesn't really have a great post game.. :confusedshrug:
.

[aj1987]

Who would take barkley and malone over dirk, garnett; and duncan ? :oldlol:

It's like a trio of some of the greatest intangibles and leadership guys ever compared to Known choke artists with questionable character.

and mid 2000 guards is >>>

All the 90s had was better centers.everything else the mid 20 00s was better
3ball, boss. 3ball.

Dude is a delusional AF. Kobe played in the best EVER era for guards.

3ball, you can meltdown however hard you want to, but the FACT is Kobe played against better competition.

29-17.

[3ball]

.
Lebron is not a team player


He tries to do everything himself - he's the least assisted player of any wing other than Harden.

When the team's #1 option scores all his buckets himself, he's not letting teammates throw him assists or use him to playmake themselves, which lowers their assisting capacity and engagement in the game.

Lebron might be a nice guy off the court, but on the court, he's like an introvert that doesn't engage others, such as asking for help (an assist) - in this way, he's not a team player and isn't an asset his teammates can use to reach the next level: being a playmaker, rather than just a play-finisher waiting on Lebron to toss them a dime.

Contrastingly, a great scorer that plays off-ball has a much higher assisted rate and therefore OPENS UP the game with more opportunities for teammates to assist/playmake more.. This results in greater engagement, synergies and a completely higher dimension (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10422919&postcount=9) of playing.
.

[3ball]

Kobe played in the best EVER era for guards.


There's only one way to describe an NBA that can't beat Euroleague (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373182): the worst era of all time.

THAT'S when Kobe accumulated his prime stats.

[GIF REACTION]

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-41349-jonah-hill-oscars-cut-it-out-g-w5Tc.gif

[3ball]

.
Can someone list the best SF's from today's era for comparison purposes?


Best SF's 1984-1998

Larry Bird
Dominique Wilkins
Scottie Pippen
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
James Worthy
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill
Dr. J

Honorable Mention: Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034), Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Tom Gugliotta,, Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas

Defensive Specialists: Dennis Rodman, Derrick McKey, Rodney McCray, Clifford Robinson, Anthony Mason, Paul Pressey, George Lynch, Jerome Kersey, Stacey Augmon
.

[aj1987]

29-17.

/thread

[3ball]

3ball, my dude, what happened to all your gifs?




They're gone.. someone took the entire site down.. It worked out better because the old site was a nightmare.. Now I use a much faster, more user-friendly site and my gifs are better.. For example, now I'm good at comparing two scenarios, such as Lebron and MJ having the ball at the elbow, and the different defensive looks they see in front of them:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/ZN3fsu.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif






http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/BwsUCL.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-01-2015/8Fa7R_.gif


I actually tried looking up the archived ones you posted for reference, and all the links seem to be dead.



Let me know what gifs you wanted to see - I probably have them on the new site.

It's funny because I have some Lebron gifs on there too, and but they were all wide open dunks, mostly after using a screen or in transition.. Whereas, more of MJ's shots were highly contested, so he had many more hangtime, dipsy-do shots and chest-to-chest posters... Lebron's shot allocation is easier (due to the spacing-inspired 3-and-D).

Of course, you can't do 3-and-D all the time, like at very high shot volumes - Unfortunately, it's a statistical fact that Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shot volume, since he's horrible at the additional midrange (shown above) required of high volume shooting.. 27 shot attempts per game (the amount Lebron averaged in 2015 Playoffs) cannot be achieved on all 3-and-D - good midrange is needed to shoot well at this volume.. Accordingly, Lebron's career 37% midrange efficiency precludes him from ever shooting well at very high volumes - this is a statistical fact.

[aj1987]

Chris Paul, Kevin Garnett, Rajon Rondo, Kirk Hinrich, Dennis Rodman and Chauncey Billups never guarded Kobe..

That's 6 guys, which reduces your list to 23 and less than MJ's list of All-NBA defenders (wing players who actually guarded MJ heads-up).
29-17, kid.

Deal with it.

[3ball]

.
The NBA stated that the rule changes worked as planned to increase penetration.. This is from the creator and implementer of the new rules, so this is not subjective opinion, similar to how Bill Gates vision for Microsoft was never considered "subjective opinion":

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html


NBA.COM: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

NBA: Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.


NBA.COM: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

NBA: It doesn't. With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim.


NBA.COM: From an Xs and Os perspective, how have coaches adjusted to a more wide-open game? What have they done differently?

NBA: Coaches have utilized more space on the floor so to create more room for dribble penetration, two-man pick-and-roll basketball and dribble exchanges on the perimeter.


NBA.COM: When you watch the game today, does it closely resemble an international game or are there still distinct differences in the style of play?

NBA: Our game does more closely resemble an international game in terms of the style of play than it used to. However, there are distinct differences in the international game vs. the NBA game. The international game utilizes a pure zone defense (as opposed to the defensive three-second rule), which allows frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration.


There it is in black and white (and red).. :confusedshrug:
.

[3ball]

.
More 2-foot leaping.. How come MJ has to go over and through defenders while Lebron gets wide open lanes?


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/cWfL-D.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/jKb0_s.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/A8fnJo.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/utCEqB.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/UAqJYz.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/ZGUxyC.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/1-kJdN.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/CoyEIr.gif

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/911d3cac30b219754c53b4b156428f49.gif.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/8cfb1f5cd6acc974960d916586e49b4a.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/c27a7589bc4681278938f85dbb781f40.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/c33b0be11565b94476f8e7a7e9902217.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/832a26d5ea87f83465b92fe12837530b.gif

[3ball]

If it was never done, then why did you say "virtually never"?


Because I can't remember a time when the coach put 4 guys behind the 3-point line so his star player can go 1-on-1.. I've never seen it and they've never provided a single example.





Is it because that way even if they gave an instance, because you knew they were right, you could just say "Thats an exception. They virtually never did it"?


Again, I've never seen one, and they've never provided one.

If it was something that had ever happened on an ongoing basis, for even a few games in a single series, it should be easy to find dozens of instances - you guys shouldn't only have a few examples.. You should have many... LIKE I DO FROM TODAY'S GAME

By providing many examples, it wouldn't be an exception, would it?





And btw, this has happened since the origin of the 3 point line. It's literally such an obvious strategy to discover. They don't need to give instances because anyone that watched games back then, which you obviously did not, could see.


Again, this is a lie - like, this is the twilight zone - coaches didn't put 4 guys behind the 3-point line to isolate a star player in the 80's or 90's.

Just look at the Bulls - you never saw Phil Jackson or Doug Collins put 4 guys behind the 3-point line so MJ could go 1-on-1... It never happened when MJ faced the Bad Boys, Riley's Knicks, 1996 Sonics, 1997 Heat, 1998 Jazz or Pacers, Shaq's Magic, 1992 Blazers, Magic's Lakers

Look at the tape.. In none of these situations, did Phil Jackson or Doug Collins position 4 guys behind the 3-point line so MJ could go 1-on-1.





Do you need to give an instance to "prove" that star players have and always will get special treatment? Because by your logic any instance you give I can just refute that it was an exception, and it virtually never happened


It's subjective to prove whether a ref is giving a star player star treatment... But it's easily-viewable fact whether a coach is putting 4 guys behind the 3-point line so his star player can go 1-on-1.

Again, you never saw Riley put Mase, X, and Oakley all behind the 3-point line at the same time... Ditto on Salley, Mahorn, Edwards, or Shaq, Horace Grant, and Anthony Bowie, or Rik Smits, Dale Davis, and Derrick McKey..

This is verifiable and not subjective, unlike your ref comparison..





]It's literally such an obvious strategy to discover.


No it isn't - the strategy of putting non-shooters on the perimeter is counter-intuitive - defenders know they when they aren't guarding shooters.. When guarding non-shooters, defenders don't to have decide whether to stay at home or help - they know they are going to help the whole time and will sag off the maximum amount and help immediately, so their recovery time is too quick.. This is why even in today's game, when a big man is behind the 3-point line, he invariably is a threat from that distance.. Even in today's game - where a premium is placed on spacing - coaches DON'T put non-shooters on the perimeter.


Btw, here's the type of garbage Flpiii is spewing:


RIP the clear-out era.



guys would stand beyond the arc even if they weren't shooters, and the men guarding them had to follow them to an adjacent zone, unless they doubled on ball.
^^^ btw, regarding this, the zones and adjacent zones are huge - they allow the defender to sag of 3-point shooters like man-to-man defense always has - THAT'S WHY ALL THE VIDEO FOOTAGE SHOWS DEFENDERS SAGGING OFF 3-POINT SHOOTERS (and therefore conflicting to your lie that they "had to follow").



.
The stats show Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shot volume


Even before the 2015 playoffs, the stats showed that Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shooting volume - the NBA's player-tracking stats show that lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. Lebron's poor efficiency at high volumes means he can't win a CHAMPIONSHIP while shooting at high volume.



Lebron's poor efficiency at high volumes mean he can't command double-team


Lebron's inability to shoot well at high volumes means he doesn't require a double-team, as seen in the 2015 Finals (and 2014 Finals too) - it's always the best defensive strategy to allow a low percentage shot over and over - this dynamic where Lebron UN-complicates the opponent's defensive strategy by not commanding a double-team, puts him outside of the top 15 all-time.



Lebron's best capability at high shot volume is 39%


Of course, the lack of double-teaming in the 2015 Finals provided Lebron with optimal conditions to shoot the best percentage possible at the higher volume - this turned out to be 39%.. 39% is Lebron's ceiling at high shooting volume.. Again, this would never be good enough to win a championship - when MJ averaged 41/9/6/51% in 1993, it was BARELY enough for the Bulls to win - remarkably, both teams averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORtg in those Finals.



Without 3-pointers to make drive-and-kick worthwhile, Lebron would be forced to score via post and mid-range in the 80's like everyone else


Lebron's poor mid-range and isolation ability not only dooms his chances of commanding double-teams or winning a championship while shooting high volume, but it prevents him from being as good in the "no 3-pointer" 80's with no one spreading the floor for him - in the absence of 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.



The stats show that pace is ALWAYS slow in the playoffs, regardless of era, so the 80's wouldn't provide Lebron with any extra transition


Btw, there wouldn't be any extra transition in the 80's to help out Lebron's struggling half court game because pace always slows down in the playoffs, regardless of era.. Pace was 94 in both the 1988 and 1989 playoffs, which is the same as 2015 playoffs.. Pace was actually LOWER many years too, like in the mid-90's - i.e. pace was 87.4 in the 1996 playoffs.



Lebron's style of play results in "empty stats"


Ultimately, Lebron's style of play (ball-dominant from SF position, with no mid-range or isolation game) doesn't just prevent him from commanding double teams or shooting well at high volume - it also hurts the brand of basketball his team is capable of.. His teams become locked into a style where Lebron dominates the ball and the offensive decision-making, which hurts chemistry.

Just look at the heat.. Wade and bosh's stats were much lower and chemistry was always an issue - Wade and lebron's ON-OFF stats were well-publicized and showed the heat were better when they were not on the floor together.. They still went 2/4 due to talent, but the times they lost, their chemistry and brand of basketball was far worse than their opponent (dallas, spurs).. The lesser brand of basketball falls primarily on Lebron's shoulders - as the franchise player, he's most responsible for the brand of basketball his teams are capable of.

Ray allen's walk-off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render lebron's stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency (2014 Finals), or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanked his efficiency (2015 Finals).







https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Wc71FrhXQ

Only one that actually might stand a chance is Anthony Davis


I'm glad you posted that shit - those ****** are kind of garbage... Very poor fundamentals - I'm not trolling.

In the ENTIRE video, these guys jab stepped a total of TWO TIMES, both by Harden (at the 3:30 and 4:15 marks) - and they were sooooper weak jab steps - lazy, passive jab steps that had zero chance at working... Not a real jab step.. I'm serious - these ****** don't know how to jab step.

MJ had the goat jab step and would destroy these guys... It would be utterly AMAZING to watch a prime Jordan eviscerate these guys and watch them start staring in awe.

Durant's jumpshot is sick, but as the video shows, he has no real moves out of the triple-threat - he wasn't as bad as paul george, but he was pretty bad - everything was a step-back - that's not a move - that's a bailout shot.. So I guess I give Durant props for hitting a bunch of bailout shots - but don't mistake what you saw for good moves.

Btw, Harden with no midrange at the 3:30 mark.. :facepalm
.

[3ball]

.
Small Forwards with Minimum 15.0 PER:


..2014.................................1990

Lebron James*...................... Larry Bird*
Kevin Durant*....................... Dominique Wilkins*
Carmelo Anthony*................. Scottie Pippen*
Kawhi Leonard...................... James Worthy*
Gordon Hayward................... Chris Mullin*
Paul Pierce*......................... Bernard King*
Trevor Ariza......................... Alex English*
Andre Iguodala..................... Adrian Dantley*
Nicholas Batum..................... Derrick McKey
Luol Deng............................ Reggie Lewis
Josh Smith........................... Orlando Woolridge
Chandler Parsons.................. Mark Aguirre
Rudy Gay............................ Jerome Kersey or DPOY SF (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374199) Dennis Rodman

HOF (*)


The big advantage at SF in previous eras is no surprise, as ALL frontcourt positions were much better in previous eras.. And the fact that the SG's are at least even (next post), is a testament to the overall advantage that 1990 had.

The superiority of the 1990 players shows that diverse, mid-range repertoire > 3-and-D.. Obviously, as 3-point shooting has increasingly replaced 2-point shooting, fewer players have needed diverse, 2-point repertoires, so fewer have them.

But not having diverse 2-point repertoires makes today's players worse players because pull-up and turnaround 2-pointers are the shots the defense cannot prevent or stop - a defense can cut-off penetration, but mid-range shots aren't trying to penetrate.. A defense can contest hard to plummet the accuracy of a 3-pointer, but a good mid-range shooter is immune to this..

The inevitable nature of mid-range shot attempts is why mid-range shots give a team the best chance to get off a shot against dialed-in defenses.. Naturally, the greatest and most dominant players of all time were all great post and/or mid-range players - every single one.. Their mid-range and post ability gave them their unstoppable, inevitable quality.







When MJ has to face an actual zone defense where players can immediately leave their man and stop the driving lanes


You are referring to the strongside flood, where a defender is brought from the weakside to the strongside, so the strongside has more defenders to stop potential penetration.. However, defenders only need to be flooded to the strongside because they were drawn away by weakside spacing in the first place.. Without weakside spacing that draws defenders away from the strongside, the strongside flood isn't necessary.






In today's game, zone defense isn't allowed in the paint due to defensive 3 seconds, but MJ would still face zone outside the paint..

I guess that's offset by spacing.


That's right - in today's game, every team's 3-point shooting and spacing strategy uses weakside spacing to reduce the number of defenders on the strongside.. With defenders drawn to the weakside, they are furthest away to help on strongside penetration (that's the effect of spacing - being further away to help):


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif



However, they didn't shoot 3-pointers in the 80's, so there was no spacing.. Without spacing in previous eras, specifically weakside spacing, defenders stayed on the strongside, eliminating the need to flood anyone over via strongside flood.. With all defenders on the strongside, defenders were closest to help on strongside action.. That's the effect of no-spacing - defenders are closer to help.


http://i.imgur.com/fq3FHEN.gif


Weakside spacing leaves the strongside with fewer defenders, which necessitates the flooding of defenders BACK TO the strongside - this is how strongside floods originated.

Otoh, as the second GIF showed, weakside spacing didn't exist in previous eras, so defenders weren't lured away from strongside - defenders just remained on the strongside, which meant players faced strongsides that were already flooded with all 5 defenders (5-defender strongsides) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21)..

These fully-flooded strongsides were a product of no-spacing and represented the "advanced" version of the game that included hand-checking, higher physicality, and legal paint-camping, and therefore requiring more sophisticated 2-point shooting ability..

This is a stark contrast to today's weakside spacing and resulting 1-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570), which is basically the "beginner" version of the game that includes less strongside defenders, no hand-checking, no paint-camping, no physicality.. The highest levels of offensive sophistication (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11534471&postcount=108) simply aren't needed for the beginner version of the game.








.
.Shooting Guards with 15.0 or Greater PER


....2006...............................1990

Kobe Bryant..................... Michael Jordan
Dwayne Wade.................. Clyde Drexler
Manu Ginobili................... Joe Dumars
Ray Allen........................ Reggie Miller
Vince Carter.....................Mitch Richmond
Michael Redd................... Ronaldo Blackmon
Richard Hamilton.............. Alvin Robertson
Joe Johnson..................... Dale Ellis
Jason Richardson.............. Ron Harper
Jamal Crawford................ Jeff Hornacek
Bonzi Wells..................... Fat Lever
Mike Miller...................... Hersey Hawkins
Morris Peterson.................Ricky Pierce
Leandro Barbosa...............Jeff Malone


1990 wins - even if you disagree, it's very close, and the entire point is that 1990's frontcourt players have such a big advantage (next post), that it's a boon to call it even at SG.

With no spacing in previous eras, the option of running offense to shift the spaced-out defenders and get an open shot wasn't available, so players had to settle for contested shots more often.. When teams don't run as much offense and settle for contested shots instead, pace and shot volume increase.

The volume shooting associated with 2-pointer basketball and the wider repertoires needed to navigate defenders in closer proximity enabled previous era wings to put more pressure on defenders than today's wings - higher volume and wider repertoires meant previous eras wings were more of a threat to have a big game than today's 3-and-D players.

Otoh, today's game requires a slower pace - the spacing necessitates running more offense to shift the spaced-out defenders and set up open 3-point looks.. Also, smaller offensive repertoires are necessary for the wider lanes provided by 3-point shooting and spacing-out environments.. Naturally, it's not surprise that today's 3-and-D wings are less of a threat to go off for a big game and pose less of a threat individually to the defense.. Again, this is in contrast to the more diverse mid-range games (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11188520&postcount=37) of previous eras, which enabled repeated contested shots and therefore less time-consuming offense.
.

[Smoke117]

.
Small Forwards with Minimum 15.0 PER:


..2014.................................1990

Lebron James*...................... Larry Bird*
Kevin Durant*....................... Dominique Wilkins*
Carmelo Anthony*................. Scottie Pippen*
Kawhi Leonard...................... James Worthy*
Gordon Hayward................... Chris Mullin*
Paul Pierce*......................... Bernard King*
Trevor Ariza......................... Alex English*
Andre Iguodala..................... Adrian Dantley*
Nicholas Batum..................... Derrick McKey
Luol Deng............................ Reggie Lewis
Josh Smith........................... Orlando Woolridge
Chandler Parsons.................. Mark Aguirre
Rudy Gay............................ Jerome Kersey or DPOY SF (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374199) Dennis Rodman

HOF (*)


1990's big advantage at SF is no surprise, as ALL frontcourt positions were much better in previous eras.. And the fact that the SG's are at least even, is a testament to the overall advantage that 1990 had.

The superiority of the 1990 players shows that diverse, mid-range repertoire > 3-and-D.. Obviously, as 3-point shooting has increasingly replaced 2-point shooting, fewer players have needed diverse, 2-point repertoires, so fewer have them.

But not having diverse 2-point repertoires makes today's players worse players because pull-up and turnaround 2-pointers are the shots the defense cannot prevent or stop - a defense can cut-off penetration, but mid-range shots aren't trying to penetrate.. A defense can contest hard to plummet the accuracy of a 3-pointer, but a good mid-range shooter is immune to this..

The inevitable nature of mid-range shot attempts is why mid-range shots give a team the best chance to get off a shot against dialed-in defenses.. Naturally, the greatest and most dominant players of all time were all great post and/or mid-range players - every single one.. Their mid-range and post ability gave them their unstoppable, inevitable quality.
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http://media.giphy.com/media/11a8FLrVeoLnna/giphy.gif

[3ball]

Let's just list all the SG's and SF's who were All-NBA defense while guarding MJ and Kobe.


.
Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding Lebron

Shawn Marion
Andre Igoudala
Kobe Bryant (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365450)
Kawhi Leonard
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Paul George
Ron Artest (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV52IrBoj90)
Thabo Sefalosha
Shane Battier (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10924107&postcount=24)
Tony Allen
Raja Bell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw&t=8m51s)
Dwayne Wade



Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding MJ

Dennis Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858)
Michael Cooper (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376404)
Derrick McKey (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10536861&postcount=264)
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
John Starks
Doug Christie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s)
Anthony Mason
Clifford Robinson
Nate McMillan
Dan Majerle
Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ)
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Bobby Phills
Paul Pressey
Rodney McCray
Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)
Kevin Garnett (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352753)***



MJ's Best Two-Way Opponents:

Clyde Drexler (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695321&postcount=8)
Dominique Wilkins (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744903&postcount=25)
Kobe Bryant (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365450)
Penny Hardaway (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692264&postcount=24)
Grant Hill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10667322#post10667322)
Ron Harper
Reggie Lewis (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989)
Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y)
Sean Elliot
Michael Finley
Kendall Gill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744186&postcount=18)
Richard Dumas (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692400&postcount=30)
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse


Also, the list above doesn't include many of the tremendous offensive wings that MJ faced including: Dr. J, James Worthy, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond, Alex English, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Jeff Malone, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034)


***You'll notice that I included a prime Garnett in MJ's list, since he and MJ both played SF in 2002 - in their first meeting when MJ was a Wizard, they were matched up SF vs. SF for the entire game.. MJ scored 35 on Garnett in every way imaginable from the opening tip - at the 4:00 mark, Jordan scores on Garnett for 5 consecutive possessions, with the announcers getting more excited each time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4

Lebron was never guarded by a prime Garnett.. I doubt he would have the quickness to make it a huge mismatch like MJ did.. After all, guys like Boris Diaw, Gordon Hayward fare well against Lebron defensively.
.

[Smoke117]

What SF from 2014 is better than it's counterpart in 1990?

Parsons > Aguirre?

Not even that.. :confusedshrug:

It's adorable that you think I actually read what you say.

[3ball]

.
The stats prove that previous era bigs would score easier on the post than today's bigs.

The top 5 big men in post efficiency (points-per-possession, PPP) are Jonas Valcunious, Kevin Love, Donatas Montejunas, Lamarcus Aldridge, and Marc Gasol.

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&sort=PPP&CF=Poss*GE*200&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

All these guys achieve the standard for elite efficiency of 1.00 PPP, despite having weak post games.. This proves how much the superior bigs of previous would dominate today's game - all the bigs listed below from 1996 were better post scorers than today's top 5, so they'd ALSO be getting elite post PPP.. And clearly, today's top 5 wouldn't even be in the top 10 if these guys were playing:

Hakeem
Shaq
Robinson
Ewing
Alonzo
Sabonis
Karl Malone
Barkley
Webber
Kemp

And probably Rik Smits, Vin Baker, Dino Radja, and certainly Derrick Coleman.

The league changed the rules in 2005 to increase the percentages on ball movement and dribble penetration, which have surpassed post-ups in some spots.. But the percentages on post-ups themselves haven't diminished at all, as proven by the elite post percentages of today's bigs, which only demonstrates how much the superior bigs of previous eras would dominate today.






.
.................................................. ..SPACING


There was no weakside spacing in previous eras, so all 5 defenders remained on the strongside, and therefore closest to help on strongside action:


http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/95daa895eb22b488294eeed3b6d490c3.gif



Otoh, today's game uses weakside spacing to reduce the number of strongside defenders.. Help defenders are now on the weakside and furthest from helping on strongside action:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-22-2015/WAhpK1.gif


The weakside spacing and resulting porous strongsides necessitate the flooding of defenders BACK TO the strongside - this is how strongside floods originated.

Otoh, as the first GIF showed, weakside spacing didn't exist in previous eras, so defenders weren't lured away from the strongside - defenders just remained on the strongside, which meant players faced strongsides that were already flooded with all 5 defenders (5-defender strongsides) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21).

These fully-flooded strongsides were a product of no-spacing and represented the "advanced" version of the game that included hand-checking, higher physicality, narrower lanes, legal paint-camping and packed paints, which therefore required more sophisticated 2-point shooting ability.

This is a stark contrast to today's weakside spacing and resulting 1-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570), which is basically the "beginner" version of the game that includes less strongside defenders, no hand-checking, no physicality, wider lanes no paint-camping and wide open paints..

The aforementioned sophisticated 2-point shooting ability (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11021030&postcount=6) that was necessary to mitigate the no-spacing of previous eras, is not necessary in the contemporary "beginner" environment.