If Dirk could do it.....

[3ball]

If he could stomp Lebron so easily 2011, then why wouldn't Barkley and Malone have done the same thing with THEIR squads and even more so?

Barkley and Malone were like rich man's Dirk - better offensively, better rebounding, same (actually better) defense.

But more importantly, Lebron's Heat were garbage compared to the teams Barkley and Malone faced in the Western Conference:

Unlike the top-heavy talent of other eras that fostered less competition and more 'dominant' teams, the better balance of talent in the 90's had a cancelling effect out West, as Barkley and Malone had to go through at least 2 of these every season:

1) Hakeem/Drexler Champion Rockets
2) Duncan/Robinson/Povovich Spurs in 1998 (56 wins) and 1999 (Champs)
3) Shaq's 1997 and 1998 Lakers, his most talented ever (4 All-Stars in 1998)
4) 1995-1998 Sonics with Big 3 of Kemp/Payton/Schrempf


Shaq, Hakeem, and obviously Duncan would destroy Lebron's Heat, yet Malone beat every one on his way to the Finals in 1998.. Malone's Jazz had an unrelenting offense and a physical team, just the type that crushes Lebron's counter of playing it safe.

[Hit_Em]

That 2011 dallas team was the greatest 3 point shooting team ever @ that point.Not making any excuses for bron though he stood in the corner like a bitch and wet the bed.

PEJA and Kidd are both like top 5 in 3's made
Dirk is the best shooting 7 footer ever(Plus he had one of the most mind blowingly hot post seasons ever)
Deshawn Stevenson was on fire in the playoffs
Jason Terry was on fire in the playoffs
Caron Butler almost shooting 50% from 3 for most of that year(i know he didnt play in the post season just saying)
Barea was on fire from mid range that year

+ That was the worst heat team out of their run.
+ Joel Anthony/mike bibby started on that team

[Im Still Ballin]

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-41349-jonah-hill-oscars-cut-it-out-g-w5Tc.gif

[qrich]

Because Dirk >>

[tpols]

Because Dirk was more clutch than Charles and especially Karl ever were.

Dirk is a taller more lethal scoring version of larry bird minus the GOAT playmaking ability but still a very smart passer with terrific decision making. Dirk is a takeover player. Malone scores in a simnilar manner to Lebron but even more in the flow.. where as bron can occasionally be clutch karl malone is never clutch.. as it goes the mailman doesnt deliver on sunday (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e03kAurk32k).. or when it comes to clutch play any day for that matter.

Charles case is a little different.. he could be clutch, but was a terrible leader and had awful longevity where as dirk has terrific longevity and leadership.. and blends seamlessly into teams in old age while chuck tries to form a super team and gets blown up put on blast for his poor veteran presence. :oldlol:


Dirk > both

[DonDadda59]

Because Dirk was more clutch than Charles and especially Karl ever were.

Dirk is a taller more lethal scoring version of larry bird minus the GOAT playmaking ability but still a very smart passer with terrific decision making. Dirk is a takeover player. Malone scores in a simnilar manner to Lebron but even more in the flow.. where as bron can occasionally be clutch karl malone is never clutch.. as it goes the mailman doesnt deliver on sunday (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e03kAurk32k).. or when it comes to clutch play any day for that matter.

Charles case is a little different.. he could be clutch, but was a terrible leader and had awful longevity where as dirk has terrific longevity and leadership.. and blends seamlessly into teams in old age while chuck tries to form a super team and gets blown up put on blast for his poor veteran presence. :oldlol:


Dirk > both

Let me start off by saying that this thread is utterly pointless. Don't think I've ever seen anyone argue that Barkley's Philly or Phoenix squads/Malone's Jazz couldn't beat the extremely flawed Bron Heat team from 2011.

But the above quoted is pure nonsense. Before 2011 Dirk was known as a world class choke artist. His MVP season and the debacle in the first round cemented that in a lot of people's minds.

The only difference between his 1 ring and Barkley/Malone's 0 was that Dirk faced a flopping mental midget while the others faced the GOAT.

[Im Still Ballin]

Let me start off by saying that this thread is utterly pointless. Don't think I've ever seen anyone argue that Barkley's Philly or Phoenix squads/Malone's Jazz couldn't beat the extremely flawed Bron Heat team from 2011.

But the above quoted is pure nonsense. Before 2011 Dirk was known as a world class choke artist. His MVP season and the debacle in the first round cemented that in a lot of people's minds.

The only difference between his 1 ring and Barkley/Malone's 0 was that Dirk faced a flopping mental midget while the others faced the GOAT.
http://img.pandawhale.com/post-41349-jonah-hill-oscars-cut-it-out-g-w5Tc.gif

[BlakFrankWhite]

Dirk's seriously getting underrated.

one of the best ever clutch players

[DonDadda59]

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-41349-jonah-hill-oscars-cut-it-out-g-w5Tc.gif

If Bron spent more time playing actual basketball and not flopping/getting treated like a petulant child at a supermarket (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emXNsKw7a3w) by Wade, then Dirk would be ringless like Barkley/Malone.

In the game Bron infamously had 8 points, Dallas only won by 3 points. If LeFlop had been able to outscore Jason Terry in that series, Dirk retires ringless.

[3ball]

Let me start off by saying that this thread is utterly pointless. Don't think I've ever seen anyone argue that Barkley's Philly or Phoenix squads/Malone's Jazz couldn't beat the extremely flawed Bron Heat team from 2011.

But the above quoted is pure nonsense. Before 2011 Dirk was known as a world class choke artist. His MVP season and the debacle in the first round cemented that in a lot of people's minds.

The only difference between his 1 ring and Barkley/Malone's 0 was that Dirk faced a flopping mental midget while the others faced the GOAT.


All true - nonetheless, the stats prove that previous era bigs would score easier on the post than today's bigs:

The top 5 big men in post efficiency (points-per-possession, PPP) are Jonas Valcunious, Kevin Love, Donatas Montejunas, Lamarcus Aldridge, and Marc Gasol.

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&sort=PPP&CF=Poss*GE*200&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

These guys all achieve the standard for elite efficiency of 1.00 PPP, despite having weak post games - this shows how much easier it is on the post - the spaced-out defenders and open paint of today's game are having a big effect.

Furthermore, all the bigs below from 1996 were better post scorers than today's top 5, so they'd ALSO be getting elite post PPP - and clearly, today's top 5 wouldn't even be in the top 10 if these guys were playing:

Hakeem
Shaq
Robinson
Ewing
Alonzo
Sabonis
Karl Malone
Barkley
Webber
Kemp

And probably Rik Smits, Vin Baker, Dino Radja, and certainly Derrick Coleman.

The league changed the rules in 2005 to increase the percentages on ball movement and dribble penetration, which have surpassed post-ups in some spots.. But the elite percentages of today's weak top 5 is proof that the percentages on post-ups themselves hasn't diminished at all - infact, they've probably increased, along with everything else (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html).
.

[Im Still Ballin]

All true - nonetheless, the stats do indeed prove that previous era bigs would score easier on the post than today's bigs:

The top 5 big men in post efficiency (points-per-possession, PPP) are Jonas Valcunious, Kevin Love, Donatas Montejunas, Lamarcus Aldridge, and Marc Gasol.

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&sort=PPP&CF=Poss*GE*200&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

These guys all achieve the standard for elite efficiency of 1.00 PPP - this shows how much easier it is on the post because these guys aren't even skilled in the post, yet they still achieve elite post efficiency.. Weak post players achieving elite efficiency is clear statistical proof that it's easier than ever to score on the post - the spaced-out defenders and open paint of today's game are having a big effect.

Furthermore, all the bigs below from 1996 were better post scorers than today's top 5, so they'd ALSO be getting elite post PPP - and clearly, today's top 5 wouldn't even be in the top 10 if these guys were playing:

Hakeem
Shaq
Robinson
Ewing
Alonzo
Sabonis
Karl Malone
Barkley
Webber
Kemp

And probably Rik Smits, Vin Baker, Dino Radja, and certainly Derrick Coleman.

The league changed the rules in 2005 to increase the percentages on ball movement and dribble penetration, which have surpassed post-ups in some spots.. But the elite percentages of today's weak top 5 is proof that the percentages on post-ups themselves hasn't diminished at all - infact, they've probably increased, along with everything else (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html).
.
http://img.pandawhale.com/post-41349-jonah-hill-oscars-cut-it-out-g-w5Tc.gif

[StephHamann]

If he could stomp Lebron so easily 2011, then why wouldn't Barkley and Malone have done the same thing with THEIR squads and even more so?

Barkley and Malone were like rich man's Dirk - better offensively, better rebounding, same (actually better) defense.



http://media.giphy.com/media/ncuegg83kFeBW/giphy.gif

[3ball]

Dirk's seriously getting underrated.


You know what's getting overlooked?

Malone beat Shaq, Duncan/Robinson, and Hakeem to make the 1998 Finals.. ALL those teams beat Lebron's Heat.

Does anyone really think Lebron's Heat stand a chance against a dominant big man like Shaq with their non-existent front line or rebounding?

[Giaodollo]

If Bron spent more time playing actual basketball and not flopping/getting treated like a petulant child at a supermarket (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emXNsKw7a3w) by Wade, then Dirk would be ringless like Barkley/Malone.

In the game Bron infamously had 8 points, Dallas only won by 3 points. If LeFlop had been able to outscore Jason Terry in that series, Dirk retires ringless.

Dallas played great defense, LeBron didn't choke he was shut down. As easy as that.

[Jameerthefear]

You know what's getting overlooked?

Malone beat Shaq, Duncan/Robinson, and Hakeem to make the 1998 Finals.. ALL those teams beat Lebron's Heat.

Does anyone really think Lebron's Heat stand a chance against a dominant big man like Shaq with their non-existent front line or rebounding?
why do u think this? do u think trolling on the web is funny
/

[3ball]

why do u think this? do u think trolling on the web is funny


Heat didn't have any bigs - they played small ball.. Can't play small ball with Shaq.. Can't guard prime Shaq with Bosh.. :no:

Also, the Heat lost in 2014 partially because they got destroyed on the glass.. Prime Shaq would have maximum capacity to exploit all the Heat's achilles heels.

[DonDadda59]

Dallas played great defense, LeBron didn't choke he was shut down. As easy as that.

Yeah, I watched the damn series. Bron played passive and tentative, to the point Wade had to get up in his face and treat him like a child. Wade had no problem getting off against that same defense.

[Giaodollo]

Yeah, I watched the damn series. Bron played passive and tentative, to the point Wade had to get up in his face and treat him like a child. Wade had no problem getting off against that same defense.

You expecting a defense to be able to shut down three all stars? They tailored their defense around shutting down LeBron.

[3ball]

You expecting a defense to be able to shut down three all stars? They tailored their defense around shutting down LeBron.


So it would've been easier for Lebron with LESS help??.. Obviously, the defense would be MORE keyed on him if he had less help... :facepalm

In other words, with 2 other stars, he was in the best situation possible.. :kobe:
.

[DonDadda59]

You expecting a defense to be able to shut down three all stars? They tailored their defense around shutting down LeBron.

:facepalm

Answer honestly... did you actually watch that series? So you're telling me Dallas was the only team that postseason whose defense was tailored to solely stop Bron? Philly, Boston, Chi didn't? Dallas didn't try that tactic with Durant, Kobe, Aldridge?

That whole Dallas system that season was solely geared to make it look like Bron was gun shy and timid?

[Giaodollo]

:facepalm

Answer honestly... did you actually watch that series? So you're telling me Dallas was the only team that postseason whose defense was tailored to solely stop Bron? Philly, Boston, Chi didn't? Dallas didn't try that tactic with Durant, Kobe, Aldridge?

That whole Dallas system that season was solely geared to make it look like Bron was gun shy and timid?

Chicago weren't good enough to stop him, neither was Philly and Boston. Mavs were.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Gabi is right about how Dallas's defence functioned. Watch Cuban's appearance with Skip/Stephen A., he goes into a considerable amount of detail as far as how Dallas planned to deal with him and how/why their system succeeded.

I'd put more stock into what some of the posters here have said if I didn't constantly see them in agenda threads. Much of this anti-LeBron narrative is an oversimplification of the series because it's convenient for said narrative. :confusedshrug:

I don't deny that LeBron choked in 2011 but there was so much more to Dallas winning the series than that. Context is important, oversimplification for the sake of an agenda is ****ing bush league.

[Giaodollo]

Gabi is right about how Dallas's defence functioned. Watch Cuban's appearance with Skip/Stephen A., he goes into a considerable amount of detail as far as how Dallas planned to deal with him and how/why their system succeeded.

I'd put more stock into what some of the posters here have said if I didn't constantly see them in agenda threads. Much of this anti-LeBron narrative is an oversimplification of the series because it's convenient for said narrative. :confusedshrug:

I don't deny that LeBron choked in 2011 but there was so much more to Dallas winning the series than that. Context is important, oversimplification for the sake of an agenda is ****ing bush league.

DonDadda be like https://youtu.be/H9w_XUQyJJQ?t=3m4s

A clone of Skip, lmao.

[DonDadda59]

Chicago weren't good enough to stop him, neither was Philly and Boston. Mavs were.

Chicago (#1 ranked defense)
Boston (#2 ranked defense)
Philly (# 7 ranked defense)

Dallas (#8 ranked defense)

'Not good enough doe' http://www.postavy.cz/foto/lenny-leonard-foto.jpg

[DMAVS41]

Let me start off by saying that this thread is utterly pointless. Don't think I've ever seen anyone argue that Barkley's Philly or Phoenix squads/Malone's Jazz couldn't beat the extremely flawed Bron Heat team from 2011.

But the above quoted is pure nonsense. Before 2011 Dirk was known as a world class choke artist. His MVP season and the debacle in the first round cemented that in a lot of people's minds.

The only difference between his 1 ring and Barkley/Malone's 0 was that Dirk faced a flopping mental midget while the others faced the GOAT.

At least post something worthwhile.

There seems to be a trend on here (been that way a while) when people talk out of their ass...they use the following phrase:

"was known as"

Who the **** cares what a player "was known as" if it didn't match reality?

Reality is that Dirk was the best clutch player of the post MJ era...

His teams had the best record in close games from at least 05 through 11. He had never lost a game 7 until last year against the championship Spurs. He is one of the best elimination game players ever.

He's one of the best playoff play players ever.

He's excellent in crunch time and is one of the best game winning shot makers of the era as well.

Virtually nothing supports the view you are spewing other than false perception.

[DonDadda59]

At least post something worthwhile.

There seems to be a trend on here (been that way a while) when people talk out of their ass...they use the following phrase:

"was known as"

Who the **** cares what a player "was known as" if it didn't match reality?

Reality is that Dirk was the best clutch player of the post MJ era...

His teams had the best record in close games from at least 05 through 11. He had never lost a game 7 until last year against the championship Spurs. He is one of the best elimination game players ever.

He's one of the best playoff play players ever.

He's excellent in crunch time and is one of the best game winning shot makers of the era as well.

Virtually nothing supports the view you are spewing other than false perception.

Bruh, no need to get your panties in a bunch. I always liked Dirk. Just pointing out that the public perception of him was he was a choke artist. May or may not have been true according to the stats, ie how Bean was called 'the best closer in the game' for years when anyone watching closely knew that was not even remotely true.

2007 and that first round most definitely did not help change public perception at the time. Especially since it followed the meltdown from the finals the previous season.

[tpols]

Let me start off by saying that this thread is utterly pointless. Don't think I've ever seen anyone argue that Barkley's Philly or Phoenix squads/Malone's Jazz couldn't beat the extremely flawed Bron Heat team from 2011.

But the above quoted is pure nonsense. Before 2011 Dirk was known as a world class choke artist. His MVP season and the debacle in the first round cemented that in a lot of people's minds.

The only difference between his 1 ring and Barkley/Malone's 0 was that Dirk faced a flopping mental midget while the others faced the GOAT.

That was the perception but the facts are dirk is one of the best playoff crunchtime performers ever. Karl isnt. Barkley is but not as long as dirk nor as good a teammate.. which matters a lot for winning. Pippen and Jordan have both said chuck would never win based on his intangibles.


If you put barkley on dirks time line he's '96 form in 2011.. having to go through roy/aldridge, kobe/pau/Bynum (peak), durant/harden/westbrook, bron/wade/bosh, with Jason Terry as his Second ??i know theyre deep/well coached.. but still that's three straight series they were not favored to win and didn't have homecourt.

This guys trying to make it sound like the mavs had a cupcake run.:oldlol: :oldlol:


the mavs showed incredible heart and discipline.. they won on pure veteran leadership. Barkley didn't have that period let alone 96 barkley. he wouldn't win shit with that roster especially given his poor longevity.

And Karl would out choke bran.:lol

[ArbitraryWater]

Because Dirk was more clutch than Charles and especially Karl ever were.

Dirk is a taller more lethal scoring version of larry bird minus the GOAT playmaking ability but still a very smart passer with terrific decision making. Dirk is a takeover player. Malone scores in a simnilar manner to Lebron but even more in the flow.. where as bron can occasionally be clutch karl malone is never clutch.. as it goes the mailman doesnt deliver on sunday (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e03kAurk32k).. or when it comes to clutch play any day for that matter.

Charles case is a little different.. he could be clutch, but was a terrible leader and had awful longevity where as dirk has terrific longevity and leadership.. and blends seamlessly into teams in old age while chuck tries to form a super team and gets blown up put on blast for his poor veteran presence. :oldlol:


Dirk > both

:applause:

[DonDadda59]

That was the perception but the facts are dirk is one of the best playoff crunchtime performers ever.

Didn't do himself any favors in that arena during the stretch from the finals in '06 through the first round in '07... can we at least agree on that point?


If you put barkley on dirks time line he's '96 form in 2011.. having to go through roy/aldridge, kobe/pau/Bynum (peak), durant/harden/westbrook, bron/wade/bosh, with Jason Terry as his Second ??i know theyre deep/well coached.. but still that's three straight series they were not favored to win and didn't have homecourt.

This guys trying to make it sound like the mavs had a cupcake run.:oldlol: :oldlol:

In '98 alone, a 34 year old Malone, with a worse team talent-wise than Dirk went through:

Rockets (Hakeem, Barkley, Drexler) in the first round
Spurs (Duncan, Robinson) in the second.
Lakers (4 all stars- Shaq, Kobe, Jones, Van Exel) in the WCF.

If Jordan had averaged 18 PPG and played like a timid house cat, Malone would've won a ring and finals MVP.


And Karl would out choke bran.:lol

Name the series, especially in a finals, where Karl scored 9 points less than his regular season average and was the 3rd leading scorer on his team. I'll wait.

If Bron reaches his regular season averages in the '11 finals, Dirk retires ringless.

[tpols]

Name the series, especially in a finals, where Karl scored 9 points less than his regular season average and was the 3rd leading scorer on his team. I'll wait.

If Bron reaches his regular season averages in the '11 finals, Dirk retires ringless.

First you name the series where Karl malone hit 2 game winners in 6 games and avereged 10 ppg in the 4th quarters.. with it being in the finals and without hca as well

Good luck.

[DMAVS41]

Bruh, no need to get your panties in a bunch. I always liked Dirk. Just pointing out that the public perception of him was he was a choke artist. May or may not have been true according to the stats, ie how Bean was called 'the best closer in the game' for years when anyone watching closely knew that was not even remotely true.

2007 and that first round most definitely did not help change public perception at the time. Especially since it followed the meltdown from the finals the previous season.

What does public perception have to do with reality?

The reality is that Dirk was one of the best closers/clutch players/big game players/playoff players of the era and all time.

So what point are you trying to make?

That people that were ignorant thought he wasn't good late in games?

[DMAVS41]

Didn't do himself any favors in that arena during the stretch from the finals in '06 through the first round in '07... can we at least agree on that point?



In '98 alone, a 34 year old Malone, with a worse team talent-wise than Dirk went through:

Rockets (Hakeem, Barkley, Drexler) in the first round
Spurs (Duncan, Robinson) in the second.
Lakers (4 all stars- Shaq, Kobe, Jones, Van Exel) in the WCF.

If Jordan had averaged 18 PPG and played like a timid house cat, Malone would've won a ring and finals MVP.



Name the series, especially in a finals, where Karl scored 9 points less than his regular season average and was the 3rd leading scorer on his team. I'll wait.

If Bron reaches his regular season averages in the '11 finals, Dirk retires ringless.


Bold claim. Maybe Cuban doesn't break up that team and adds a piece in the off season and they win 12.

No way to know.

And of course...I could simply say:

"if the NBA didn't absurdly ref the NBA finals in 06...Dirk would have already had a ring"

or

"if Dirk's dad wasn't having life altering surgery in 07...they beat the Warriors and likely win a ring in a down NBA year"

or

"if Dirk doesn't get hurt in the WCF in 03...they had a 50/50 shot to win the title"

So I think that is a really bad argument because there are more "what ifs" that favor Dirk winning than not winning.

[DMAVS41]

That was the perception but the facts are dirk is one of the best playoff crunchtime performers ever. Karl isnt. Barkley is but not as long as dirk nor as good a teammate.. which matters a lot for winning. Pippen and Jordan have both said chuck would never win based on his intangibles.


If you put barkley on dirks time line he's '96 form in 2011.. having to go through roy/aldridge, kobe/pau/Bynum (peak), durant/harden/westbrook, bron/wade/bosh, with Jason Terry as his Second ??i know theyre deep/well coached.. but still that's three straight series they were not favored to win and didn't have homecourt.

This guys trying to make it sound like the mavs had a cupcake run.:oldlol: :oldlol:


the mavs showed incredible heart and discipline.. they won on pure veteran leadership. Barkley didn't have that period let alone 96 barkley. he wouldn't win shit with that roster especially given his poor longevity.

And Karl would out choke bran.:lol


The bold is all that needs to be said.

Tpols straight up...:applause:

[FLDFSU]

The most impressive team that Mavs beat in 2011 run was the 2x defending champions Lakers...of which they swept.

[3ball]

:applause:


Look at the stats - it's a wash in both RS and playoffs - which is why I made the thread.. If Dirk can easily crush the Heat, then Malone and Barkley easily could too, but you severely underrate them and their teams.

Malone swept Shaq's stacked Lakers in 1997, and then he made Shaq his bitch and swept him again in 1998.. Then he beat Duncan/Robinson/Popovich and went on to take MJ's Bulls 6 games in the Finals.. All in one playoff run.. But he can't beat Lebron's Heat?... C'mon..

Barkley took MJ's Bulls six games too surely he'd do much better against Lebron's Heat, considering Barkley's near equivalent (Dirk) beat Lebron easily.
.

[DMAVS41]

The most impressive team that Mavs beat in 2011 run was the 2x defending champions Lakers...of which they swept.

I don't know about that, but I do think that Lakers team tends to get a bit under-rated because of the sweep.

Honestly, if Brewer doesn't come in like he did and or Kobe makes that game 1...game winner.

That series and the 11 playoffs might have gone a completely different way.

A team like the 11 Mavs just had a very small margin of error. Who knows what one shot or one play would have changed.

That is what makes that run so great. 16 of the 21 games they played in the playoffs went into crunch time. That means in 16 games...the game was within 5 points with 5 minutes or less remaining.

Amazing...

[StephHamann]

First you name the series where Karl malone hit 2 game winners in 6 games and avereged 10 ppg in the 4th quarters.. with it being in the finals and without hca as well

Good luck.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[DMAVS41]

Look at the stats - it's a wash in both RS and playoffs - which is why I made the thread.. If Dirk can easily crush the Heat, then Malone and Barkley easily could too, but you severely underrate them and their teams.

Malone swept Shaq's stacked Lakers in 1997, and then in 1998, he made Shaq his bitch and swept him again.. Then he beat Duncan/Robinson/Popovich and went on to take MJ's Bulls 6 games in the Finals.. All in one playoff run.. But he can't beat Lebron's Heat?... C'mon..

Barkley took MJ's Bulls six games - surely he'd do much better against Lebron's Heat, considering Barkley's near equivalent (Dirk) beat Lebron easily.

Could they do it? Absolutely.

Easily? Hell no.

Dirk had the greatest 4th qtr and clutch playoff run since early 90's MJ. All told, it's probably a top 3 to 5 clutch playoff run ever.

Like I said above...16 of the 21 games were basically toss ups with 5 minutes left.

Karl Malone could absolutely not have "easily" done what Dirk did to win those games.

Could they have? Sure.

Like tpols said...Barkley could have moreso than Malone.

[3ball]

The most impressive team that Mavs beat in 2011 run was the 2x defending champions Lakers...of which they swept.


That's nothing compared to Malone's 1998 run.

Malone beat Popovich/Duncan/Robinson in 5 games, swept Shaq's stacked Laker team (4 all-stars) in WCF, and then took MJ's Bulls 6 games in the Finals.. All in one playoff run..

But he can't beat Lebron's Heat the way Dirk and his nobody supporting cast did?... C'mon..

[DonDadda59]

First you name the series where Karl malone hit 2 game winners in 6 games and avereged 10 ppg in the 4th quarters.. with it being in the finals and without hca as well

Good luck.

Why would Malone need to do any of that to beat a team whose best player scored 9 PPG less than his regular season average? The Jazz ran through the murderer's row of the WC and had they played a Jordan who played like Bron did, they would've clowned the Bulls and Malone would've been a champion and finals MVP.

Truth is, you can't find a series Historically where a player (maybe even an injured player :oldlol: ) shit the bed worse than Bron in 2011. And the games were still close.

Bron outscores Jason Terry that series, Dirk retires ringless.



Bold claim. Maybe Cuban doesn't break up that team and adds a piece in the off season and they win 12.

'12 Heat were a better squad than they were in '11, by a good margin.




And of course...I could simply say:

"if the NBA didn't absurdly ref the NBA finals in 06...Dirk would have already had a ring"

The NBA changed the handchecking rules and that was the climate. Blame Cuban himself for lobbying the league to make those changes in the first place following Bean's performance in the '04 finals. That really came back to bite him in the ass. :lol


or

"if Dirk's dad wasn't having life altering surgery in 07...they beat the Warriors and likely win a ring in a down NBA year"

Way too much of a reach.


or

"if Dirk doesn't get hurt in the WCF in 03...they had a 50/50 shot to win the title"

Yeah, Bron playing like a scrub in the finals in reality and Dirk being hurt and put through hypotheticals doesn't really mesh. Is it really that far-fetched to say Bron scoring his regular season average would most likely mean a win for the Heat in that series? :confusedshrug:

The game he scored only 8 points, Miami lost by 3.


So I think that is a really bad argument because there are more "what ifs" that favor Dirk winning than not winning.

No, not at all. :lol

[Im Still Ballin]

Stop trolling don

You've been exposed

[Legends66NBA7]

Malone has crumbled under the big stage before and he's choked even before the Finals. He doesn't win anything.

Barkley, maybe. He was better in the playoffs and a tough cover.

Nothing easily happens, though.

[DMAVS41]

Why would Malone need to do any of that to beat a team whose best player scored 9 PPG less than his regular season average? The Jazz ran through the murderer's row of the WC and had they played a Jordan who played like Bron did, they would've clowned the Bulls and Malone would've been a champion and finals MVP.

Truth is, you can't find a series Historically where a player (maybe even an injured player :oldlol: ) shit the bed worse than Bron in 2011. And the games were still close.

Bron outscores Jason Terry that series, Dirk retires ringless.




'12 Heat were a better squad than they were in '11, by a good margin.





The NBA changed the handchecking rules and that was the climate. Blame Cuban himself for lobbying the league to make those changes in the first place following Bean's performance in the '04 finals. That really came back to bite him in the ass. :lol



Way too much of a reach.



Yeah, Bron playing like a scrub in the finals in reality and Dirk being hurt and put through hypotheticals doesn't really mesh. Is it really that far-fetched to say Bron scoring his regular season average would most likely mean a win for the Heat in that series? :confusedshrug:

The game he scored only 8 points, Miami lost by 3.



No, not at all. :lol


Dude...it's a bad argument because you could play the "what if" game as much as you want with every player.


Even worse, it wasn't anything outside of Lebron's control. He just choked and played like shit.

Mavs/Dirk absolutely had something to do with that...but it wasn't like he got screwed by the refs, got hurt, or had something happen off the court.

Not only is playing the "what if" game here stupid...you chose an instance where the only person to blame is Lebron himself.

Also, Lebron might have played like that repeatedly against the Mavs. Everyone ignores it, but Lebron pulled the same shit against the Spurs in 2013 in the finals.

The only difference is that the 13 Spurs were a worn down team not as good as the 11 Mavs and they choked in game 6 to give Lebron life.

Dirk and Terry would have stomped the life out of that Heat team and never would have let Lebron come up for air. No way...

So lets just not assume Lebron plays better always against that team.

The facts are as follows:

Dirk has been as good or better clutch player, big game player, playoff performer as anyone since the MJ era.

Dirk's 11 run was one of the most clutch playoff runs of all time.

When they did face each other...Dirk outplayed Lebron significantly and put pressure on him by playing great. LeBron wilted under this pressure.

Those are the facts...you can sit here and cry about them...but it will be just that.

Could Malone/Barkley have won that year? Sure...maybe...but who knows...and it's not like Malone/Barkley didn't have chances throughout their career.

All we know is that when they had chances...they came up short.

And we know that Dirk came through on one of his chances...and it was a chance that wasn't really a chance. Underdogs essentially in every series...and playing a prime Wade/Lebron/Bosh in the finals.

Trying to discredit that is silly...


Don't you think you are a little biased here to laugh off my what ifs but think that Lebron's what if counts?

LeBron plays like shit and has only himself to blame...you think that is a valid "what if"

Dirk/Mavs get screwed by the refs...not a valid what if
Dirk's dad has major surgery during the Warriors and Dirk plays by far his playoff series ever...not a valid what if
Dirk gets hurt in the 03 WCF (after winning game 1 on the road)...not a valid what if

Seriously dude...check yourself for extreme bias here.

[DonDadda59]

Dude...it's a bad argument because you could play the "what if" game as much as you want with every player.


Even worse, it wasn't anything outside of Lebron's control. He just choked and played like shit.

Mavs/Dirk absolutely had something to do with that...but it wasn't like he got screwed by the refs, got hurt, or had something happen off the court.

Not only is playing the "what if" game here stupid...you chose an instance where the only person to blame is Lebron himself.

Also, Lebron might have played like that repeatedly against the Mavs. Everyone ignores it, but Lebron pulled the same shit against the Spurs in 2013 in the finals.

The only difference is that the 13 Spurs were a worn down team not as good as the 11 Mavs and they choked in game 6 to give Lebron life.

Dirk and Terry would have stomped the life out of that Heat team and never would have let Lebron come up for air. No way...

So lets just not assume Lebron plays better always against that team.

The facts are as follows:

Dirk has been as good or better clutch player, big game player, playoff performer as anyone since the MJ era.

Dirk's 11 run was one of the most clutch playoff runs of all time.

When they did face each other...Dirk outplayed Lebron significantly and put pressure on him by playing great. LeBron wilted under this pressure.

Those are the facts...you can sit here and cry about them...but it will be just that.

Could Malone/Barkley have won that year? Sure...maybe...but who knows...and it's not like Malone/Barkley didn't have chances throughout their career.

All we know is that when they had chances...they came up short.

And we know that Dirk came through on one of his chances...and it was a chance that wasn't really a chance. Underdogs essentially in every series...and playing a prime Wade/Lebron/Bosh in the finals.

Trying to discredit that is silly...

Except I'm not. Seems like we're generally in agreement. LeBron choked hard. People are trying to make it seem it was because of some super impenetrable defense the Mavs played that better defenses from the East weren't good enough to :oldlol:

Or that the reason Dirk beat that team but Malone and Barkley didn't beat the Bulls was because they were unclutch? Malone and Dirk made the finals twice each.

Dirk '06: 22.8 PPG (39% FG)/ 10.8 RPG/ 2.5 APG
Dirk '11: 26 PPG (42% FG)/ 9.7 RPG/ 2 APG

Malone '97: 23.8 PPG (44% FG)/ 10.3 RPG/ 3.5 APG
Malone '98: 25 PPG (50% FG)/ 10.5 RPG/ 3.8 APG

Barkley '93: 27 PPG (48% FG)/ 13 RPG/ 5.5 APG

They didn't seal the deal or lose in the finals because they were clutch or unclutch (except the US Postal service not delivering on Sundays :facepalm ), it had to do with the quality of teams and more specifically the quality of players they faced. If Jordan comes out like Bron did in '11 against the Jazz, Bulls lose in 5 or 6 instead of winning in 6 both times. If Jordan averaged even a good 25 PPG against the offensive juggernaut that was Barkley's Suns, Chicago would've been embarrassed '14 Heat style.

[DMAVS41]

Except I'm not. Seems like we're generally in agreement. LeBron choked hard. People are trying to make it seem it was because of some super impenetrable defense the Mavs played that better defenses from the East weren't good enough to :oldlol:

Or that the reason Dirk beat that team but Malone and Barkley didn't beat the Bulls was because they were unclutch? Malone and Dirk made the finals twice each.

Dirk '06: 22.8 PPG (39% FG)/ 10.8 RPG/ 2.5 APG
Dirk '11: 26 PPG (42% FG)/ 9.7 RPG/ 2 APG

Malone '97: 23.8 PPG (44% FG)/ 10.3 RPG/ 3.5 APG
Malone '98: 25 PPG (50% FG)/ 10.5 RPG/ 3.8 APG

Barkley '93: 27 PPG (48% FG)/ 13 RPG/ 5.5 APG

They didn't seal the deal or lose in the finals because they were clutch or unclutch (except the US Postal service not delivering on Sundays :facepalm ), it had to do with the quality of teams and more specifically the quality of players they faced. If Jordan comes out like Bron did in '11 against the Jazz, Bulls lose in 5 or 6 instead of winning in 6 both times. If Jordan averaged even a good 25 PPG against the offensive juggernaut that was Barkley's Suns, Chicago would've been embarrassed '14 Heat style.

I agree with much of this.

I'd add one caveat though...Dirk's play in crucial times during the finals put pressure on the Heat in a way that added to the collapse of Lebron because that added pressure did things to him.

Dirk misses some of those late shots in game 2? Maybe the Heat win in 5.

The margin of error on this stuff is just so slim. Literally, if Dirk had missed that game winner in game 2...the Mavs might have lost in 5.

So while I do agree with much of what you say, I don't think we can talk so broadly about things.

[DonDadda59]

I agree with much of this.

I'd add one caveat though...Dirk's play in crucial times during the finals put pressure on the Heat in a way that added to the collapse of Lebron because that added pressure did things to him.

Dirk misses some of those late shots in game 2? Maybe the Heat win in 5.

The margin of error on this stuff is just so slim. Literally, if Dirk had missed that game winner in game 2...the Mavs might have lost in 5.

So while I do agree with much of what you say, I don't think we can talk so broadly about things.

Fair enough. Dirk's '11 run was clutch as all hell, I'd never argue against that. Dude came through every time his team needed him. That really was a joy to watch as a fan. :bowdown:

[StephHamann]

Also listen to Zeke:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNRoAJ-LbwI

:applause:

[FKAri]

Heat didn't have any bigs - they played small ball.. Can't play small ball with Shaq.. Can't guard prime Shaq with Bosh.. :no:

Also, the Heat lost in 2014 partially because they got destroyed on the glass.. Prime Shaq would have maximum capacity to exploit all the Heat's achilles heels.

Shaq? dat fat nikga goin need an inhaler. he cant run up and down with the heat. weak era. stop worshippin scrubs who would be sellin hotdogs at the game in todays era.

[pauk]

Correction:

His team stomped Lebron, not Dirk... he wasnt good imo, he shot 41% and didnt do so well in the clutch/4th, in all the previous series he was awesome... his teammates stepped up offensively and defensively managed to zone the crap out of Lebron like nobody has managed to do ever before, to the point where he only got like 14 FGA and 3 FTA in that series, he couldnt get anything inside and didnt settle for 3's, so he was just passive... Dirk didnt do that...

[Jameerthefear]

Correction:

His team stomped Lebron, not Dirk... he wasnt good imo, he shot 41% and didnt do so well in the clutch/4th, in all the previous series he was awesome... his teammates stepped up offensively and defensively managed to zone the crap out of Lebron like nobody has managed to do ever before, to the point where he only got like 14 FGA and 3 FTA in that series, he couldnt get anything inside and didnt settle for 3's, so he was just passive... Dirk didnt do that...
Oh look, it's bait

[upside24]

Heat didn't have any bigs - they played small ball.. Can't play small ball with Shaq.. Can't guard prime Shaq with Bosh.. :no:

Also, the Heat lost in 2014 partially because they got destroyed on the glass.. Prime Shaq would have maximum capacity to exploit all the Heat's achilles heels.
I pretty much agree but the same could be said about the issue of guarding LeBron.

Wade was still superstar level and LeBron was still athletically insane meaning you have two guys who can attack and score/dish and playing small with Bosh would force Shaq away from the paint.

We will never know but maybe Shaq and LeBron cancel each other out and Wade and Bosh along with timely 3s make the difference.

Still don't know what happened to LeBron in those Finals. He clearly wanted to prove everyone wrong by showing that he made the right decision and desperately needed a ring yet he was so passive. Almost as bizarre as the Celtics game the year before.

[DMAVS41]

Correction:

His team stomped Lebron, not Dirk... he wasnt good imo, he shot 41% and didnt do so well in the clutch/4th, in all the previous series he was awesome... his teammates stepped up offensively and defensively managed to zone the crap out of Lebron like nobody has managed to do ever before, to the point where he only got like 14 FGA and 3 FTA in that series, he couldnt get anything inside and didnt settle for 3's, so he was just passive... Dirk didnt do that...
http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmkjpwbjh01qh9wcto1_500.jpg

And then he said...Didn't do so well in the clutch/4th....

http://mavsblog.dallasnews.com/files/2014/05/NS_29DIRKZK_31924686.jpg

[upside24]

Fair enough. Dirk's '11 run was clutch as all hell, I'd never argue against that. Dude came through every time his team needed him. That really was a joy to watch as a fan. :bowdown:
One of my favorite postseason runs ever.

Love the 48 pointer against OKC where there was absolutely nothing they could do to stop him. He abused every defender put on him finishing 12-15 from the field and a record 24-24 FTs.

The beauty is that they resorted to fouling him after seeing that no one could defend him and then he doesn't miss a single free throw. These were not bailout calls by the refs these were legitimate fouls where the Thunder were just at a loss to stop him in any way.

Even the Title clinching game was great. He stunk up the place in the first half and then comes back after halftime and starts finding his groove.

God I miss elite level Dirk.:cry:

[Im Still Ballin]

One of my favorite postseason runs ever.

Love the 48 pointer against OKC where there was absolutely nothing they could do to stop him. He abused every defender put on him finishing 12-15 from the field and a record 24-24 FTs.

The beauty is that they resorted to fouling him after seeing that no one could defend him and then he doesn't miss a single free throw. These were not bailout calls by the refs these were legitimate fouls where the Thunder were just at a loss to stop him in any way.

Even the Title clinching game was great. He stunk up the place in the first half and then comes back after halftime and starts finding his groove.

God I miss elite level Dirk.:cry:
He was good but not quite on the MJ/Lebron/Kobe level of elite

[upside24]

He was good but not quite on the MJ/Lebron/Kobe level of elite
Maybe not but considering his supporting cast consisted mainly of role players, though good ones, he still managed to be effective despite being the primary defensive assignment and facing doubles and triples seemingly every game.

He just had and incredible stretch of high level basketball at the most crucial time.

MJ/LeBron/Kobe are top tier players that will be argued about for decades to come and rightfully so and Dirk clearly isn't on that level.

He just put in work game after game, series after series.

Only thing is, the Heat SHOULD have won if LeBron was 80% as effective as he could have been.

[aj1987]

I agree with much of this.

I'd add one caveat though...Dirk's play in crucial times during the finals put pressure on the Heat in a way that added to the collapse of Lebron because that added pressure did things to him.

Dirk misses some of those late shots in game 2? Maybe the Heat win in 5.

The margin of error on this stuff is just so slim. Literally, if Dirk had missed that game winner in game 2...the Mavs might have lost in 5.

So while I do agree with much of what you say, I don't think we can talk so broadly about things.

The Heat were 1 Wade 3 away from being up 3-0.

[DMAVS41]

The Heat were 1 Wade 3 away from being up 3-0.

Yep.

So fragile.

[aj1987]

Yep.

So fragile.
No doubt. Dirk was clutch AF. Only if that one shot had gone in though....:facepalm

[Lebron23]

No

Barkley and Malone are natural born losers.

[upside24]

No

Barkley and Malone are natural born losers.
Lot of greats had the misfortune of facing MJ.

[Lebron23]

Lot of greats had the misfortune of facing MJ.


I am just kidding. That Dallas team beat Lebron. Dirk only shot 41% from the field. It was LBJ's fault why the Mavericks beat the Heat in the NBA Finals

[upside24]

I am just kidding. That Dallas team beat Lebron. Dirk only shot 41% from the field. It was LBJ's fault why the Mavericks beat the Heat in the NBA Finals
I agree. It's the only mark on Dirk's crazy Championship assault.

LeBron could have and should have stepped up and demolished the Mavs with a still very effective Wade.

Does that mean Dirk's chip has an *?

[kenny817]

DonDadda getting his ass whooped all over the thread

[kenny817]

I am just kidding. That Dallas team beat Lebron. Dirk only shot 41% from the field. It was LBJ's fault why the Mavericks beat the Heat in the NBA Finals

Shut your ass up

It was the Mavs' fault why the Mavericks best the Heat in the NBA Finals

[3ball]

Dirk '06 Finals: 22.8 PPG (39% FG)/ 10.8 RPG/ 2.5 APG
Dirk '11 Finals : 26 PPG (42% FG)/ 9.7 RPG/ 2 APG

Malone '97: 23.8 PPG (44% FG)/ 10.3 RPG/ 3.5 APG
Malone '98: 25 PPG (50% FG)/ 10.5 RPG/ 3.8 APG

Barkley '93: 27 PPG (48% FG)/ 13 RPG/ 5.5 APG

Barkley and Malone played better in the Finals than Dirk ever did, but they lost the Finals because they faced superior teams (Bulls) and players (MJ).. If Jordan comes out like Bron did in '11 against the Jazz, Bulls lose in 5 or 6 instead of winning in 6 both times.. If Jordan averaged even a good 25 PPG against the offensive juggernaut that was Barkley's Suns, Chicago would've been embarrassed '14 Heat style.


:applause: ... Exactly

In 1998, Karl Malone beat Popovich/Duncan/Robinson in 5 games, swept Shaq's stacked 4-all-star Lakers in WCF, and then took MJ's Bulls to 6 games in the Finals.. All in one playoff run..

But he can't beat Lebron's Heat the way Dirk's lesser stats and nobody supporting cast did?... Gimme a break.. Malone destroys the Heat the same way he destroyed Shaq and Duncan.

Also, Dirk only made 7 three-pointers in the 2011 Finals, barely 1 per game - he beat the Heat with mid-range and post-ups, which Barkley and Malone are much better at.