in the end. lebron needs to win 5. cause even if he has 4. all anyone would say is...

[kennethgriffin]

5>4


since extra curricular nominations can only be used as tie breakers between modern day legends

the only time mvps are the main criteria is if thats all the guy ever did and hes being compared to another guy with no success


its more than obvious that winning is the defining trait in basketball

since a guy like hakeem in 94 can win with nobody. a guy like kobe, dirk can win with adequate sidekicks

nobody NEEDS legendary sidekicks...


so realistically.. if you win without allot of help. then no one can argue when you do win with help


which is why kobes 5 rings cant be argued.





lebron however. has NOT proven he doesnt need a legendary sidekick or multiple hall of famers

for him to atleast legitimize his career. he must win with 1 adequate sidekick and no third man

but seeing as kyrie erving is on the same level as dwyane wade already... itel be hard to prove that in cleveland.

lebron must leave the cavs and join a team without another mega star and win multiple titles in order to compare to kobe...

period

so not only must lebron win 5. he must prove atleast 2 of them are legit in order to validate them


and even if he won 5 and validated 2... you know people will still say

yeah BUT one of them was in a lockout year and another was 100% due to ray allen

2 major asterisks that outweigh any amount of help another guy might have gotten via a big center team mate


help isnt as embarrassing as fake seasons/bail outs


and then you gotta worry about the colluding/ring chasing argument


so in the end. all these lebron fans can just give up hope.. he basically has to start over his entire career to get it right. and hes running out of time

[r15mohd]

Russell has more than MJ - ranked lower
Bird has less than TD - ranked higher
Magic has more than Wilt - ranked lower
etc, etc, etc.

to sum up, no he doesn't :no:

[Im Still Ballin]

Mike Jordan is better.

[Velocirap31]

Prime Shaq > All the best of Lebron's teammates put together.

[kennethgriffin]

Russell has more than MJ - ranked lower
Bird has less than TD - ranked higher
Magic has more than Wilt - ranked lower
etc, etc, etc.

to sum up, no he doesn't :no:



people use 90's > 60s arguments to prop up jordan over russell

and 80's > 00's arguments to prop up bird over duncan



i dunno about wilt being ranked ahead of magic.. but if anyone did theyed use "major all time holding every record" arguments over magics limited numbers




but in a kobe vs lebron debate

kobes era > lebrons era

and lebron doesnt have all time major legendary stat records like wilt



so the only things anyone could use in an advantage are non existent


and besides.. i said modern day legends


wilt/russell are not modern day legends.

[kennethgriffin]

Prime Shaq > All the best of Lebron's teammates put together.


did you miss the part where in my OP it says



since a guy like hakeem in 94 can win with nobody. a guy like kobe, dirk can win with adequate sidekicks

nobody NEEDS legendary sidekicks...


so realistically.. if you win without allot of help. then no one can argue when you do win with help


which is why kobes 5 rings cant be argued.





how does one argue "kobe needed shaq" if he didnt?


when lebron wins multiple times without a legendary team mate. i might count the ones he won with wade

[r15mohd]

it's always a fixed criteria to keep Kobe atop for you, isnt it? :rolleyes:

OK, so modern age is 80s to present, therefore:

Bird has less than Shaq and TD - ranked higher
Kobe has more than Hakeem and Shaq - ranked lower


so again, to sum it up...no Lebron doesnt need to equal or exceed the ring count

[kennethgriffin]

it's always a fixed criteria to keep Kobe atop for you, isnt it? :rolleyes:

OK, so modern age is 80s to present, therefore:

Bird has less than Shaq and TD - ranked higher
Kobe has more than Hakeem and Shaq - ranked lower


so again, to sum it up...no Lebron doesnt need to equal or exceed the ring count



bird should not be ranked ahead of shaq and TD though. but he is only cause of 80's favoritism and how people say it was the golden era

the only thing golden about lebrons era is its shade of p*ss


and i dunno anyone who ranks shaq or dream over kobe bryant in terms of careers

[Velocirap31]

did you miss the part where in my OP it says






how does one argue "kobe needed shaq" if he didnt?


when lebron wins multiple times without a legendary team mate. i might count the ones he won with wade

He needed Shaq for 3/5 of his rings. He would have 2 rings if he didn't have Shaq. I was also clarifying that Shaq is a legendary teammate, post 2010 Wade was not.

[Indian guy]

WOW, Kobe fans just can't get over LeBron surpassing their boy, can they? :facepalm

It's over, guys. It was over 2 years ago, when LeBron hit that championship sealing jumper in 2013. LeBron so thoroughly dominates Kobe in raw stats, advanced stats and basically anything that charts on-court impact, it was always a given that he was going to surpass Kobe the moment he had a decent team around him and started winning championships. And Kobe fans knew this, which is why their trolling concerning all-things LeBron was unprecedented for nearly a decade. But it's something that only held weight when LeBron was ring-less. But after 2 rings, 4 MVPs, 2 FMVPs and consensus status as the game's best for years and years, Kobe fans come off wishful, desperate and just sad. Nobody outside of Los Angeles considers Kobe>LeBron. Nobody. It's over.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

bird should not be ranked ahead of shaq and TD though. but he is only cause of 80's favoritism and how people say it was the golden era

the only thing golden about lebrons era is its shade of p*ss


and i dunno anyone who ranks shaq or dream over kobe bryant in terms of careers
Why you so bitter bro?

[r15mohd]

bird should not be ranked ahead of shaq and TD though. but he is only cause of 80's favoritism and how people say it was the golden era

the only thing golden about lebrons era is its shade of p*ss


and i dunno anyone who ranks shaq or dream over kobe bryant in terms of careers


everyone but Kobe stans...pretty much stapled excluding you, and your kinds alike :rolleyes:

as for Bird, he is and always will be ranked ahead of Shaq and TD. no favortism or anything of that nature to even hinder his rank. he beat a stacked Lakers squad on more than 1 occasion, and outueled the stronger EC contenders when the WC was as bad as todays East, if not worse.

[kennethgriffin]

He needed Shaq for 3/5 of his rings. He would have 2 rings if he didn't have Shaq. I was also clarifying that Shaq is a legendary teammate, post 2010 Wade was not.

kobe didnt need shaq

kobe dominated the west during that three peat.

shaq dominated the Finals


lakers win the finals vs indiana/philly/jersey WITHOUT shaq

replace him with any average 18/9 big man

lakers still dominate that trash



even with shaq out kobe dominated indiana in 2000... and they still sweep jersey... still backdoor sweep philly

[Quickening]

WOW, Kobe fans just can't get over LeBron surpassing their boy, can they? :facepalm

It's over, guys. It was over 2 years ago, when LeBron hit that championship sealing jumper in 2013. LeBron so thoroughly dominates Kobe in raw stats, advanced stats and basically anything that charts on-court impact, it was always a given that he was going to surpass Kobe the moment he had a decent team around him and started winning championships. And Kobe fans knew this, which is why their trolling concerning all-things LeBron was unprecedented for nearly a decade. But it's something that only held weight when LeBron was ring-less. But after 2 rings, 4 MVPs, 2 FMVPs and consensus status as the game's best for years and years, Kobe fans come off wishful, desperate and just sad. Nobody outside of Los Angeles considers Kobe>LeBron. Nobody. It's over.

This... everyone knows they have same amount of championships as lead player, and Lebron rapes Kobe in every other statistical category.

[kennethgriffin]

everyone but Kobe stans...pretty much stapled excluding you, and your kinds alike :rolleyes:

as for Bird, he is and always will be ranked ahead of Shaq and TD. no favortism or anything of that nature to even hinder his rank. he beat a stacked Lakers squad on more than 1 occasion, and outueled the stronger EC contenders when the WC was as bad as todays East, if not worse.


so the entire world is kobe stans?



seriously what list have you ever seen since 2010 that has hakeem or shaq over kobe

[kennethgriffin]

This... everyone knows they have same amount of championships as lead player, and Lebron rapes Kobe in every other statistical category.


lol

so kobes 29/7/6 playoffs with a 15-1 record while being mvp of the actual finals series in the west averaging 33ppg ( more than shaq ) through the first 3 rounds

doesnt count ?

:roll:



sorry bud...


and besides ... i'l say it again.


lockout*

bail out*


not the same as kobes 2 full legit rings with gasol


not even if wade/bosh equalled the spaniard

fake season and ray allen dont even equal up to less than half of kobes rings

:no:

[TheMilkyBarKid]

You were sad as a troll in the past, now you just look desperate.

Go for a walk and reassess your life.

[r15mohd]

You were sad as a troll in the past, now you just look desperate.

Go for a walk and reassess your life.


this wont help...his agenda is set on this, unfortunately. :banghead:

[red1]

http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/37-intredasting.jpg

[ISHGoat]

If lockout and bailout rings dont count, then neither do shaq or gasol rings, because when he played with them, they would bail him out an estimated 18 out of 24 times in a game

[Velocirap31]

kobe didnt need shaq

kobe dominated the west during that three peat.

shaq dominated the Finals


lakers win the finals vs indiana/philly/jersey WITHOUT shaq

replace him with any average 18/9 big man

lakers still dominate that trash



even with shaq out kobe dominated indiana in 2000... and they still sweep jersey... still backdoor sweep philly

Yes he did need Shaq. Kobe's stats would have been inflated playing with Shaq as well since the team's defense will be geared towards preventing Shaq from dropping 40 points and 20 boards on 75% shooting. They didn't care what Kobe did. His 25 points on 40% is something they'd live with and could beat.

[Quickening]

lol

so kobes 29/7/6 playoffs with a 15-1 record while being mvp of the actual finals series in the west averaging 33ppg ( more than shaq ) through the first 3 rounds

doesnt count ?

:roll:



sorry bud...


and besides ... i'l say it again.


lockout*

bail out*


not the same as kobes 2 full legit rings with gasol


not even if wade/bosh equalled the spaniard

fake season and ray allen dont even equal up to less than half of kobes rings

:no:

second option rings don't count for much when comparing top 10 payers ever no...

[Prometheus]

everyone but Kobe stans...pretty much stapled excluding you, and your kinds alike :rolleyes:

as for Bird, he is and always will be ranked ahead of Shaq and TD. no favortism or anything of that nature to even hinder his rank. he beat a stacked Lakers squad on more than 1 occasion, and outueled the stronger EC contenders when the WC was as bad as todays East, if not worse.

I'm not sure that I disagree with you overall, but Bird only beat Magic ONCE. The Lakers won the next two times they met.

[ralph_i_el]

Except Kobe was a full on sidekick for two rings...

Kobe gets two rings max if he's drafted into the situation LeBron was.

[Nuff Said]

But Kobe won with hof and a legendary sidekick who is still beasting in the playoffs right now.

[Prometheus]

The worst thing about OP is how he tells us what "everyone will say" when really it's just what he will say. "Everyone will say 5>4" nah, dude, they won't. You will. 9er will. Kobe f@gs of the world will say anything they can. No one else will give a f*ck. Jackass.

Kobe > LeBron for careers. So far. LeBron > Kobe for impact and peak value.

Anyone who's not biased on one side or the other can see this. You're never going to convince anyone.

[pauk]

"All anyone" more likely fail to see the reason in that logic considering Kobe has only 2 championship runs worthy of Lebrons both/all 2.... meaning to win as the man/best player.... the rest of his 3 came as a sidekick...

If Lebron wins 4 it will be all as the man/best player...

So to say 5 > 4 in this context is just as ignorant as saying Havlicek (8) > Jordan (6).... ignoring not only the context of those championship runs, but also the MVPs / prominency in the league & team....

If Kobe really had 5 championships as the man/best player, having 5 fmvps preferably.... then you are right... hell, he would be ranked WAAAY higher on anybodies list.... but thats not the case....

Fact is Kobe would not be anywhere close Top 10 with his first 3 championships... he would by now have only that... and 1 MVP.... thats it.... its those last 2 championships that put him in there, he proved there he could lead a team to the Finals and win as the best player/1st option/the man/FMVP/MVP....

[r15mohd]

I'm not sure that I disagree with you overall, but Bird only beat Magic ONCE. The Lakers won the next two times they met.

my mistake. thank you, sir! regardless, that Celtics team led by Bird was a force on the league in their own.

sucks both Bird and Magic's career were cut short or they'd both be 2-3rd under MJ IMO

[kennethgriffin]

second option rings don't count for much when comparing top 10 payers ever no...

out of the top 10 players all time

bill russell
kareem abdul jabbar
magic johnson
larry bird
kobe bryant
shaquille oneal
tim duncan
wilt chamberlain

all won rings as either the 2nd option or runner up to a team mate that won FMVP


and kobes 2001 and 2002 titles/playoff stats are better than any of those other guys runner up/2nd option stats

[kennethgriffin]

But Kobe won with hof and a legendary sidekick who is still beasting in the playoffs right now.


top 97 all time is a legend now?


theres only around 30 bare minimum legends in nba history. ( maybe 10-15 true legends )



90 out of 100 people on the street dont know who gasol is...

to be a legend you gotta be recognizable

[ISHGoat]

out of the top 10 players all time

bill russell
kareem abdul jabbar
magic johnson
larry bird
kobe bryant
shaquille oneal
tim duncan
wilt chamberlain

all won rings as either the 2nd option or runner up to a team mate that won FMVP


and kobes 2001 and 2002 titles/playoff stats are better than any of those other guys runner up/2nd option stats

All the players you listed are better players than kobe. Most of them are two-way centers, so nothing more needs to be said. Magic was a 6'9 triple double machine dishing out assists. Bird was a knockdown shooter who is an equivalent scorer to kobe, but a better playmaker, and better rebounder.

Only kobe is a volume shooting one-dimensional ballhog.

[kennethgriffin]

Yes he did need Shaq. Kobe's stats would have been inflated playing with Shaq as well since the team's defense will be geared towards preventing Shaq from dropping 40 points and 20 boards on 75% shooting. They didn't care what Kobe did. His 25 points on 40% is something they'd live with and could beat.


kobe won 2 without shaq ( 1 of them vs allot better finals competition than any of the 3 he won with shaq )


kobe didnt need shaq

sorry.. this is 2015. not 2005

[kennethgriffin]

All the players you listed are better players than kobe. Most of them are two-way centers, so nothing more needs to be said. Magic was a 6'9 triple double machine dishing out assists. Bird was a knockdown shooter who is an equivalent scorer to kobe, but a better playmaker, and better rebounder.

Only kobe is a volume shooting one-dimensional ballhog.



the only guys with better careers than kobe are jordan/kareem/russell


kobes career is on par with magic/duncan

kobes career is better than shaq/bird/hakeem/wilt


sorry again

[r15mohd]

kobe won 2 without shaq ( 1 of them vs allot better finals competition than any of the 3 he won with shaq )


kobe didnt need shaq

sorry.. this is 2015. not 2005


he won without shaq, but replaced by two 7ft giants up front and a 7ft wingman who could run point and guard the PF spot. that's where his 2 came from...you really give no one but Kobe credit in all these titles, completely laughable to say the least.

[dubeta]

The truth of the matter is no matter where you rank Kobe, nobody would pick him over the top 15-20 players all time in starting a team.

Kobe's Legacy* = 100% unearned accolades

[Prometheus]

90 out of 100 people on the street dont know who gasol is...

to be a legend you gotta be recognizable

This is another thing that sucks about your arguments. You put weight on shit like this when it has no impact on the court. So '12 and '13 Wade was a better help than '09 and '10 Gasol... because he's more recognizable?

You do the same thing when you use ESPN fan voting polls to back up arguments. It only makes you look bad, and I'm just here to bring it up in case anyone has failed to notice.

[kennethgriffin]

he won without shaq, but replaced by two 7ft giants up front and a 7ft wingman who could run point and guard the PF spot. that's where his 2 came from...you really give no one but Kobe credit in all these titles, completely laughable to say the least.


exactly. kobe never needed shaq

all kobe needed was an adequate big man 2nd option to win


i never said kobe didnt need anyone

all i said was he NEVER needed shaq... and he NEVER needed a legendary sidekick


period

this is proven

[ralph_i_el]

the only guys with better careers than kobe are jordan/kareem/russell


kobes career is on par with magic/duncan

kobes career is better than shaq/bird/hakeem/wilt


sorry again

Bird:
College player of the year
Rookie of the year
3x MVP
3x Champ as #1 option

If his back didn't give out this wouldn't even be a discussion. Bird>Kobe in terms of peak AND achievements

Kobe is borderline top 10 at BEST.

LeBron even making the finals in 07 is a bigger accomplishment than either of Kobe's first 2 rings.

By Kenneth's reckoning, Sam Jones should be considered a top 10-20 player all time lol.

[ISHGoat]

the only guys with better careers than kobe are jordan/kareem/russell


kobes career is on par with magic/duncan

kobes career is better than shaq/bird/hakeem/wilt


sorry again

Yes I agree with those two statements. From an achievement point of view, that is accurate. Kobe's resume definitely puts him into the top 10, maybe even top 5.

However, achievements are only one aspect of evaluating a player's career. Otherwise players like fisher and horry would be goat candidates. From an actual basketball impact standpoint, kobe is not even top 15. There is a reason kobe's teams never did well when he wasnt surrounded by dominant frontcourt teammates.

The only real years where kobe was dominant defensively AND offensively was his frobe years. After that, it is pretty clear that his all-defense awards are an abomination and he was an average to below average team defender.

[r15mohd]

the only guys with better careers than kobe are jordan/kareem/russell


kobes career is on par with magic/duncan

kobes career is better than shaq/bird/hakeem/wilt


sorry again


wrong, completely wrong!

Magic played only 12 yrs and made the finals 9 times and won 5...WAY better

Bird played around the same amount, went 5 times and came away with 3...all as the head guy, WAY better

TD has had 15yrs of continued success throughout his ENTIRE career, 5 titles to back it up as well

these are just some who have had GREATER careers than Kobe, and we don't even get into the additional accolades which sets them even farther apart.

[kennethgriffin]

This is another thing that sucks about your arguments. You put weight on shit like this when it has no impact on the court. So '12 and '13 Wade was a better help than '09 and '10 Gasol... because he's more recognizable?

You do the same thing when you use ESPN fan voting polls to back up arguments. It only makes you look bad, and I'm just here to bring it up in case anyone has failed to notice.



stats arent everything... impact isnt measured solely in production. since a guy like gasol isnt defended the same was as another legend is


a defense can put more emphasis in stopping wade.. then others flourish

same as a defense puts more emphasis in stopping kobe. so gasol will flourish


like how last night the defense paid attention to rose/butler/brooks drives and left gasol wide open all night


wade being on the floor opened up others like battier/chalmers/bosh/cole and many others


having a legend takes pressure off you. period

[r15mohd]

exactly. kobe never needed shaq

all kobe needed was an adequate big man 2nd option to win


i never said kobe didnt need anyone

all i said was he NEVER needed shaq... and he NEVER needed a legendary sidekick


period

this is proven

lmao...without Shaq in those 3 runs, replaced by anyone lesser at that, Kobe is not even sniffing the WCF. you are on Cloud 9 with your daydreams Kenneth. :rolleyes:

[Prometheus]

wrong, completely wrong!

Magic played only 12 yrs and made the finals 9 times and won 5...WAY better

Bird played around the same amount, went 5 times and came away with 2...all as the head guy, WAY better

TD has had 15yrs of continued success throughout his ENTIRE career, 5 titles to back it up as well

these are just some who have had GREATER careers than Kobe, and we don't even get into the additional accolades which sets them even farther apart.

Bird won 3 :oldlol:

don't worry bro, the Prometheus auto-correct function is in full effect

[ralph_i_el]

stats arent everything... impact isnt measured solely in production. since a guy like gasol isnt defended the same was as another legend is


a defense can put more emphasis in stopping wade.. then others flourish

same as a defense puts more emphasis in stopping kobe. so gasol will flourish


like how last night the defense paid attention to rose/butler/brooks drives and left gasol wide open all night


wade being on the floor opened up others like battier/chalmers/bosh/cole and many others


having a legend takes pressure off you. period

Kind of like how having Shaq as the man took all the pressure off Kobe? :roll:

[r15mohd]

Bird won 3 :oldlol:

don't worry bro, the Prometheus auto-correct function is in full effect


just corrected it...lmao, hard to do from the phone. should of got the 6-plus :facepalm

[kennethgriffin]

wrong, completely wrong!

Magic played only 12 yrs and made the finals 9 times and won 5...WAY better

Bird played around the same amount, went 5 times and came away with 2...all as the head guy, WAY better

TD has had 15yrs of continued success throughout his ENTIRE career, 5 titles to back it up as well

these are just some who have had GREATER careers than Kobe, and we don't even get into the additional accolades which sets them even farther apart.



kobe is a better offensive player than magic, has better numbers than magic
kobe is 5 times better at defense than magic
kobe had a much longer career/prime than magic
kobe has more all nba teams
more 1st team all nbas
more all defensive teams
more defensive 1st teams
more allstar games
more consecutive allstar games
more 10,20,30,40,50,60,70,80 point games
a higher single game total


magic said kobe was better

kobe won with way less help

magic having kareem/nixon/cooper/mcadoo/worthy/wilkes

kobe having 1 guy


all magic has over kobe is playing in a better era ... thats it ... period.... nuff said

other than that kobes career blasts magics with dehydrated thick yellow p*ss

[ralph_i_el]

kobe is a better offensive player than magic, has better numbers than magic
kobe is 5 times better at defense than magic
kobe had a much longer career/prime than magic
kobe has more all nba teams
more 1st team all nbas
more all defensive teams
more defensive 1st teams
more allstar games
more consecutive allstar games
more 10,20,30,40,50,60,70,80 point games
a higher single game total


magic said kobe was better

kobe won with way less help

magic having kareem/nixon/cooper/mcadoo/worthy/wilkes

kobe having 1 guy


all magic has over kobe is playing in a better era ... thats it ... period.... nuff said

other than that kobes career blasts magics with dehydrated thick yellow p*ss
Lol nope

[Prometheus]

kobe is a better offensive player than magic

http://smartear.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/0/5/20058993/6218199_orig.jpg

[Prometheus]

Magic is in a 1a/1b lock with Michael Jordan as the GREATEST OFFENSIVE PLAYER OF ALL TIME, Kobe is not even close to their level.

[kennethgriffin]

http://smartear.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/0/5/20058993/6218199_orig.jpg


magic was a better passer

asside from that?


kobe =

better footwork
better off hand
better dunker
better slasher
better floater
better free throw
better mid range
better long range
better fade
better step back
better pull up



and kobe was a good passer... not as good as magic obviously. but still

kobe is obviously the more well rounded offensive player


and defense isnt even close

[r15mohd]

kobe is a better offensive player than magic, has better numbers than magic
kobe is 5 times better at defense than magic
kobe had a much longer career/prime than magic
kobe has more all nba teams
more 1st team all nbas
more all defensive teams
more defensive 1st teams
more allstar games
more consecutive allstar games
more 10,20,30,40,50,60,70,80 point games
a higher single game total

all because his career was cut short due to injury...he was well on his way to many of these same accolades in which Kobe has now.


magic said kobe was better

christopher columbus said he discovered america...not everything someone says is accurate or even remotely true, much like the same as these posts you're spewing out :rolleyes:

Magic, Kareem, Shaq...even Wilt and West to a degree.



kobe won with way less help

more lies...Shaq then Gasol/Bynum/Odom, those front courts win with any role playing SG under Phil.

[SouBeachTalents]

all because his career was cut short due to injury...he was well on his way to many of these same accolades in which Kobe has now.



christopher columbus said he discovered america...not everything someone says is accurate or even remotely true, much like the same as these posts you're spewing out :rolleyes:

Magic, Kareem, Shaq...even Wilt and West to a degree.




more lies...Shaq then Gasol/Bynum/Odom, those front courts win with any role playing SG under Phil.

Besides Wade, what other SG's in your opinion honestly win titles on the Lakers in '09 & '10 in place of Kobe?

[dubeta]

Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe, and a better passer than Magic


LeBron = GOAT offensive player

[Nuff Said]

top 97 all time is a legend now?


theres only around 30 bare minimum legends in nba history. ( maybe 10-15 true legends )



90 out of 100 people on the street dont know who gasol is...

to be a legend you gotta be recognizable
I was referring to two different people. Shaq is a legend. Kobe won with gasol who played very well in those playoffs.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe, and a better passer than Magic


LeBron = GOAT offensive player

Then why does he average 24 ppg in the Finals while Jordan averages 34?

[dubeta]

Besides Wade, what other SG's in your opinion honestly win titles on the Lakers in '09 & '10 in place of Kobe?

Harden, Vince, Tmac, Brandon Roy, Ginobli. Basically every

[kennethgriffin]

all because his career was cut short due to injury...he was well on his way to many of these same accolades in which Kobe has now.



christopher columbus said he discovered america...not everything someone says is accurate or even remotely true, much like the same as these posts you're spewing out :rolleyes:

Magic, Kareem, Shaq...even Wilt and West to a degree.




more lies...Shaq then Gasol/Bynum/Odom, those front courts win with any role playing SG under Phil.



did this guy seriously just argue that kobe had more help than magic


because bynums 6ppg in the 2009 finals and 7ppg in the 2010 finals really was a difference maker eh

what? all 15 minutes he played while being benched the entire 4th quarter

:roll:


that really compares to hall of fame legends mcadoo/wilkes/worthy/kreem and defensive legend cooper. and allstar norm nixon


:roll:


btw LOL@ automatically discounting a guy with a 20 year career because someone once had AIDS



so lets just say magic would have played twice as long eh

wait... nevermind. he came back and played AFTER he retired and wasnt nearly as good


oops



and i dont care wtf you got to say about magics own quote

he coulda said jerry west was the goat laker. he coulda said kareem was the goat laker. he coulda said shaq. he coulda said wilt

he didnt even have to be selfish or self centred



he picked kobe cause kobe is tied for the all time laker record of 5 titles while holding nearly every statistical laker record at the same time.

[BuffaloBill]

Lebron fans aren't even confident that Lebron can win 5 rings :oldlol:

[Velocirap31]

Kenneth, your dedication is admirable, but you aren't convincing anyone outside of other Kobe fans. It's just not happening. Most of us have seen Kobe's entire career and he is a legend, but would certainly have had a very different and non-legend career if he wasn't a Laker.

[r15mohd]

Besides Wade, what other SG's in your opinion honestly win titles on the Lakers in '09 & '10 in place of Kobe?

Manu and Brandon Roy were pretty stout those same years, outside of Wade. All three can win titles with that same front court of Gasol/Bynum/Odom

[ISHGoat]

Harden, Vince, Tmac, Brandon Roy, Ginobli. Basically every

Dont forget joe johnson, paul pierce, jerry stackhouse, rip hamilton, dwade obviously, and prime mike miller

[kennethgriffin]

Manu and Brandon Roy were pretty stout those same years, outside of Wade. All three can win titles with that same front court of Gasol/Bynum/Odom


if it was easy to win multiple titles without a legendary sidekick

someone other than kobe would have done it multiple times since the nba was founded

yet ... nobody else has


and there have been plenty of teams in nba history with a gasol esq sidekick

[dubeta]

Dont forget joe johnson, paul pierce, jerry stackhouse, rip hamilton, dwade obviously, and prime mike miller


And if we include SF's, I would say Paul George, Melo, Gordon Hayward, Kawhi Leonard, Tyreke Evans, Luol deny, Danny Granger, Kyle Korver

[Prometheus]

magic was a better passer

asside from that?


kobe =

better footwork
better off hand
better dunker
better slasher
better floater
better free throw
better mid range
better long range
better fade
better step back
better pull up


kobe was a better scorer

asside from that?


magic =

better fast break passing
better off-hand passing
better no-look passing
better feel for his teammates
better skip passes
better pocket passes
better passing out of the post
better feeding the post
better hitting cutters

Since you want to sum up passing into one line and then use ~10 different categories just to say "Kobe was a better scorer", I can play the same game.

When you look at the actual impact, Magic was a ~20 PPG scorer who had the greatest assist averages in history. Greatest floor leader and point guard of all time, still able to lead a championship team in scoring. Better than Kobe on offense and it's not. even. close.

[r15mohd]

did this guy seriously just argue that kobe had more help than magic


because bynums 6ppg in the 2009 finals and 7ppg in the 2010 finals really was a difference maker eh

what? all 15 minutes he played while being benched the entire 4th quarter

:roll:


that really compares to hall of fame legends mcadoo/wilkes/worthy/kreem and defensive legend cooper. and allstar norm nixon


:roll:


btw LOL@ automatically discounting a guy with a 20 year career because someone once had AIDS



so lets just say magic would have played twice as long eh

wait... nevermind. he came back and played AFTER he retired and wasnt nearly as good


oops



and i dont care wtf you got to say about magics own quote

he coulda said jerry west was the goat laker. he coulda said kareem was the goat laker. he coulda said shaq. he coulda said wilt

he didnt even have to be selfish or self centred



he picked kobe cause kobe is tied for the all time laker record of 5 titles while holding nearly every statistical laker record at the same time.


stats are never the tell all...that trio of bigs in the game proved to be an opposing coaches worst nightmare, the only team that even gave them a run was an almost equally big front court in the Celtics.

how good was Kobe scoring against the Celtics in the paint...he didn't fare all that great. now flip it and see why the Lakers paint presence was THE key factor to their run with Gasol/Bynum/Odom

[dubeta]

kobe was a better scorer

asside from that?


magic =

better fast break passing
better off-hand passing
better no-look passing
better feel for his teammates
better skip passes
better pocket passes
better passing out of the post
better feeding the post
better hitting cutters

Since you want to sum up passing into one line and then use ~10 different categories just to say "Kobe was a better scorer", I can play the same game.

When you look at the actual impact, Magic was a ~20 PPG scorer who had the greatest assist averages in history. Greatest floor leader and point guard of all time, still able to lead a championship team in scoring. Better than Kobe on offense and it's not. even. close.

Yea but what about off-ball passing?

[Prometheus]

Yea but what about off-ball passing?

That's the only kind of passing where MJ > Magic

[ISHGoat]

Also, almost every stat and advanced stat tells us that kobe was the sidekick to gasol in his 2010 ring. Check ws, ws48, vorp, eye test, etc. Go and watch the 2010 finals. You cant say with a straight face that kobe was the clear cut #1 option.

Kobe is a player who was the best player on his team (and barely) for only 1 out of 5 finals.

He should have 0 mvps (chris paul), and 1 finals mvp (2009)

[Velocirap31]

And if we include SF's, I would say Paul George, Melo, Gordon Hayward, Kawhi Leonard, Tyreke Evans, Luol deny, Danny Granger, Kyle Korver

Bolded the no way in hells. :lol

[ISHGoat]

Bolded the no way in hells. :lol

If you actually think about it, leonard would be a definite upgrade over chuckbe. Hayward and prime granger, and carriedbe are a wash. Tyreke, Luol, and Korver would be slight downgrades though.

Unless we are talking about rookie tyreke, peak luol in his all star season, and current korver. You replace 2000-2002 kobe with those three and they still threepeat. Peak luol and current korver are great defenders and will not chuck you out of games, and will not rape any white girls.

[kennethgriffin]

kobe was a better scorer

asside from that?


magic =

better fast break passing
better off-hand passing
better no-look passing
better feel for his teammates
better skip passes
better pocket passes
better passing out of the post
better feeding the post
better hitting cutters

Since you want to sum up passing into one line and then use ~10 different categories just to say "Kobe was a better scorer", I can play the same game.

When you look at the actual impact, Magic was a ~20 PPG scorer who had the greatest assist averages in history. Greatest floor leader and point guard of all time, still able to lead a championship team in scoring. Better than Kobe on offense and it's not. even. close.


lol @ equating "better feeding the post" to "better mid range shooting"


i wonder how difficult each are on a scale of 1-10


difference between kobes individual offensive scoring skills is that ALL OF THEM are insanely hard to perfect

while only 1 or 2 of magics passing skillset are on another level



magics ability to thread the needle was skillful

his no looks aswell

but asside from that i mean... common


having good vision enables you to pass well in any situation


however as lebron james and others have showcased. shooting a mid range shot and a three pointer arent translatable




a good passer can pass in any situation

a good shooter cant* shoot in any situation




scoring is much MUCH much MUUUUUCH more of an individual skillset in every situation



a guy can be an all time great scorer but suck at post ups

ive never heard of an all time great passer that couldnt do a pass out of the post



big difference. and if you cant see it then youre r*tarded

[dubeta]

We literally just listed 25 players from THIS era itself that would have won rings with Gasol and this guy is still trying to argue :oldlol:

[r15mohd]

if it was easy to win multiple titles without a legendary sidekick

someone other than kobe would have done it multiple times since the nba was founded

yet ... nobody else has


and there have been plenty of teams in nba history with a gasol esq sidekick

Gasol is one of the most skilled big men to play...stop underrating him :facepalm tie that together with Byum at center to anchor the paint on D (and he still had a good offensive skillset) and the front court is beastly. then you add a point-forward who is also pushing 7ft, and it runs with the Celtics of the 80s front court.

as for quality bigs on the whole...in the past 10-15yrs, we've seen Dwight, the Gasol-brother and now Davis/Cousins. they are far and few between to even amount to Pau-esque talent, and even if they do, its a 1-2yr peak and they drop off. quality big consistent like Pau is rare

[Velocirap31]

If you actually think about it, leonard would be a definite upgrade over chuckbe. Hayward and prime granger, and carriedbe are a wash. Tyreke, Luol, and Korver would be slight downgrades though.

Unless we are talking about rookie tyreke, peak luol in his all star season, and current korver. You replace 2000-2002 kobe with those three and they still threepeat. Peak luol and current korver are great defenders and will not chuck you out of games, and will not rape any white girls.

Kawhi doesn't provide a fraction of the offense that Kobe does though. Getting wide open 3's due to the Spurs system and amazing team play does not equate to being the guy taking consistently difficult shots.

[kennethgriffin]

We literally just listed 25 players from THIS era itself that would have won rings with Gasol and this guy is still trying to argue :oldlol:


except they didnt


i could say "manu ginobili could win in place of michael jordan on the bulls"


did he?

nope.



if what ifs are the only thing that matter then mike penburthy could be considered all time goat


that criteria isnt helping anyones situation


its like discounting every players ring just in order to talk sh*t about kobes...

do you really wanna go that far? seems a little desperate

:roll:

[ISHGoat]

Kawhi doesn't provide a fraction of the offense that Kobe does though. Getting wide open 3's due to the Spurs system and amazing team play does not equate to being the guy taking consistently difficult shots.

Must be difficult to get open shots playing next to peak shaq in PJ's system

[r15mohd]

If you actually think about it, leonard would be a definite upgrade over chuckbe. Hayward and prime granger, and carriedbe are a wash. Tyreke, Luol, and Korver would be slight downgrades though.

Unless we are talking about rookie tyreke, peak luol in his all star season, and current korver. You replace 2000-2002 kobe with those three and they still threepeat. Peak luol and current korver are great defenders and will not chuck you out of games, and will not rape any white girls.


leonard likely, prime granger maybe...but cant side with you on the rest. start to all-start level replacements are more of a surety

[Velocirap31]

Must be difficult to get open shots playing next to peak shaq in PJ's system

This is Kobe we're talking about. He prefers 20 foot fade-aways. Seeing Kobe take an open shot is like :biggums:

[r15mohd]

Kawhi doesn't provide a fraction of the offense that Kobe does though. Getting wide open 3's due to the Spurs system and amazing team play does not equate to being the guy taking consistently difficult shots.


i give Kawhi the nod becuase now you have the best frontcourt in Pau/Bynum and now a DPOY who has good offense. it's a lock-down team on the whole.

[kennethgriffin]

Gasol is one of the most skilled big men to play...stop underrating him :facepalm tie that together with Byum at center to anchor the paint on D (and he still had a good offensive skillset) and the front court is beastly. then you add a point-forward who is also pushing 7ft, and it runs with the Celtics of the 80s front court.

as for quality bigs on the whole...in the past 10-15yrs, we've seen Dwight, the Gasol-brother and now Davis/Cousins. they are far and few between to even amount to Pau-esque talent, and even if they do, its a 1-2yr peak and they drop off. quality big consistent like Pau is rare


that doesnt make him a legend


on bbreference gasol is around 90th+ all time

on slam top 500 gasol is around 90th+ all time



gasol was a great player. AN ALL TIME LEGEND? hell no




theres a big difference between winning with a top 5/10/15/20/30/ or even 50 player all time


guys like that are celebrated every 50th/60th anniversary

they get special jackets with embroidered insignias and plaques with their names on them

:lol

[kennethgriffin]

out of the all time sidekicks.. gasols bottom 5 all time

[ISHGoat]

out of the all time sidekicks.. gasols bottom 5 all time

kenneth pulling shit out of his ass once again

gasol's production and impact was greater than kobe's in the 2010 run. This is a fact. Gasol's production was very slightly less than kobe's in 2009, another fact.

If gasol is a bottom 5 sidekick of all time, then kobe, as a lead dog, has impact equivalent to a bottom 10 sidekick of all time.

This actually sounds very accurate. Kobe is a slightly more impactful player than gasol.

[dubeta]

There's no difference between Gasols 09-10 and Hakeem's 94-95 championship runs IMO

[Velocirap31]

Gasol deserves more credit. He's extremely good and the Bulls are a legit championship team with him.

[r15mohd]

out of the all time sidekicks.. gasols bottom 5 all time


yet will be a first ballot HOF pick...legendary validated, legendary!

[Velocirap31]

i give Kawhi the nod becuase now you have the best frontcourt in Pau/Bynum and now a DPOY who has good offense. it's a lock-down team on the whole.

True. Who's the playmaker though? Fisher? Farmar? Yikes.

[G0ATbe]

He's still yet to own a single legit ring. 5 is not enough. He needs to win at least 6 more times to be on Kobe's level career wise. And even then...he's playing out east so its not like they'd be as meaningful as kobes

[r15mohd]

True. Who's the playmaker though? Fisher? Farmar? Yikes.


Kawhi and Gasol tandem...we already see how effective it is with an aging TD on the Spurs. you add Odom into the mix too..it's not stellar offense, but you don't need it knowing how great the defense is for the squad.

[ISHGoat]

There's no difference between Gasols 09-10 and Hakeem's 94-95 championship runs IMO

It is more like the 2007 spurs run. The guard got the fmvp but we all know that duncan should have gotten it, as he was far more impactful and anchored that defense and made plays from the high post. Sound strangely similar to kobe's runs with pau.

[r15mohd]

He's still yet to own a single legit ring. 5 is not enough. He needs at least 6 real rings to be on Kobe's level career wise.

Shaq and the best front court over the past 10-15yrs says hi :rolleyes:

[jimmybball]

One more FMVP and he has a good argument against Kobe due to his combo of FMVPs and MVPs. Less of a case against Duncan though, who matches LeBron's FMVPs, has 2 additional rings, is not as far behind LeBron in MVPs as Kobe, and has beaten LeBron 2 out of 3 times in the Finals.

[ShawkFactory]

Only people who don't know basketball or how to make an actual argument or both will simply use '5>4' if Bran wins 4 rings.

[kennethgriffin]

yet will be a first ballot HOF pick...legendary validated, legendary!

1. HOF doesnt = legend... everyone makes the HOF these days. just become a multiple allstar and youre in

2. pau gasol is not first ballot


reggie miller and dennis rodman werent even first ballot.


these guys gotta make the HOF first you know:

kobe
duncan
garnett
dirk
wade
allen
pierce
bosh
carter
parker
manu
iverson
kidd
nash
tmac
hill
billups
big ben
webber
peja


and other past greats that should still make it some day

like aguire, nixon, cooper and many more

[kennethgriffin]

if the HOF means youre a legend.. then theres like 400 legends in basketball?

lol

no

there might be 25-30

[dubeta]

if the HOF means youre a legend.. then theres like 400 legends in basketball?

lol

no

there might be 25-30

And Kobe's not one of them