What if Kobe never existed?

[Wade's Rings]

Does Shaq stay ringless? What happens to Gasol?

[ISHGoat]

They would still win their rings, but one thing does change: one less white girl raped in colorado

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Kobe honestly wasnt all that in 2000. Replace him w/ Eddie Jones who they wouldnt have traded in this scenario and they win it all. Honestly 2000 Shaq is the GOAT have an avg SG (Eddie Jones was a star) and he could prolly take em to the title that season

outside of that he doesnt win nothin unless LA signed a big FA.

[mehyaM24]

shaq would have multiple rings, just because how much of a dominant force he was.

was the impact king from 1998-2005, and even in 2006, arguably THE driving force to miami winning a ring:


Everything starts with dealing with Shaquille," Dallas coach Avery Johnson says.

O'Neal has not only played smartly and efficiently but at times has been as dominant as ever. Despite double-teams, sometimes when he doesn't have the ball, he is averaging 14.6 points, 9.8 rebounds and 3.2 assists and shooting 66.7%.

"Everyone knows that he's 34 years old and he's not the young Shaq-be-nimble, Shaq-be-quick, but we know we wouldn't be at this point without him,"Wade says. "He's the biggest part of what we have here in Miami."

^^^^^ impact that goes beyond raw stats - so again, by the evidence and concrete data, i would imagine you could plug in any all-star caliber sg, and shaq would still get them rings.

[jimmybball]

Shaq still wins rings. Just a matter of which years they put together a roster to do it, so the count is more unknown. Somebody would have joined him though.

Pau is a bigger question mark. Who else was in the running for him when he wanted out of Memphis?

[imnew09]

Does Shaq stay ringless? What happens to Gasol?


:facepalm :facepalm And you name yourself Wade's ring :facepalm
you failed just like your dad when he tried to pull out

[kennethgriffin]

shaq before getting elite kobe bryant

1993 - lottery
1994 - swept by indiana 0-3
1995 - swept by rockets 0-4
1996 - swept by bulls 0-4
1997 - lost to jazz 1-4
1998 - swept by jazz 0-4
1999 - swept by spurs 0-4


after getting elite kobe bryant

2000 - kobe saves game 7 WCF down 15 in 4th quarter - with 25 points, 11 rebounds, 7 assists, 4 blocks ( shaq would have choked away his first championship )
2001 - kobe averages 29/7/6 ( 33/7/6 through first 3 rounds ) shaq would have choked away another possible title without kobe
2002 - kobe averaged 27/6/5 and dominates the west again. shaq shows up just for the easy finals yet again


its safe to say without kobe shaq would never have accomplished anything in LA

[ISHGoat]

shaq before getting elite kobe bryant

1993 - lottery
1994 - swept by indiana 0-3
1995 - swept by rockets 0-4
1996 - swept by bulls 0-4
1997 - lost to jazz 1-4
1998 - swept by jazz 0-4
1999 - swept by spurs 0-4


after getting elite kobe bryant

2000 - kobe saves game 7 WCF down 15 in 4th quarter - with 25 points, 11 rebounds, 7 assists, 4 blocks ( shaq would have choked away his first championship )
2001 - kobe averages 29/7/6 ( 33/7/6 through first 3 rounds ) shaq would have choked away another possible title without kobe
2002 - kobe averaged 27/6/5 and dominates the west again. shaq shows up just for the easy finals yet again


its safe to say without kobe shaq would never have accomplished anything in LA

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[G0ATbe]

Shaq would still collude with some other star and win once. Pau would remain ringless

[ISHGoat]

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4101/4920970629_7fb8758dbc_z.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/25qqk5c.png

[kennethgriffin]

:facepalm

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what about facts dont you understand?

shaq was a choker without an elite all nba level kobe.. i posted a decade worth of proof

portland would easly have won game 7 of the WCF if kobe wasnt there

they went up 15 in the 4th quarter.


take away kobes 25/11/7/4 and no chance in hell does shaq win that title

portland ends up 2000 nba champions


kobes 2001 run was historic for a non finals mvp. probably the best ever



what dont you understand about evidence?

[kennethgriffin]

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4101/4920970629_7fb8758dbc_z.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/25qqk5c.png


so all kobe needed to win was an adequate 2nd option ranked top 97th all time


nobody wins without help. kobe just needed a bare minimum

shaq needed a top 5-7 all time nba legend


and wade playing like one

[ISHGoat]

what about facts dont you understand?

shaq was a choker without an elite all nba level kobe.. i posted a decade worth of proof

portland would easly have won game 7 of the WCF if kobe wasnt there

they went up 15 in the 4th quarter.


take away kobes 25/11/7/4 and no chance in hell does shaq win that title

portland ends up 2000 nba champions


kobes 2001 run was historic for a non finals mvp. probably the best ever



what dont you understand about evidence?

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[kennethgriffin]

kobe without shaq

3 nba finals
2 nba titles
2 nba finals mvps
1 nba mvp
2 scoring titles
8 first team all nba's
6 first team all defense

best team mate = top 97th all time pau gasol



shaq without kobe

2 nba finals
1 nba title
0 nba finals mvps
0 nba mvp's
1 scoring title
2 first team all nba's
0 first team all defense ( 0 with kobe anyway )

best team mates = top 11-12 all time lebron james, top 25 all time dwyane wade, top 25 all time garnett, top 35 all time steve nash, top 35 all time paul pierce, top 40 all time ray allen, 1st team all nba penny hardaway

[kennethgriffin]

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so you cant dispute anything and keep spamming smileys as a response. only way i'd expect you to reply honestly. you lack creativity/intelligence

[HOoopCityJones]

ISH woudn't be here for starters and you all wouldn't have anything to bitch about.

[ISHGoat]

kobe without shaq

3 nba finals
2 nba titles
2 nba finals mvps
1 nba mvp
2 scoring titles
8 first team all nba's
6 first team all defense

best team mate = top 97th all time pau gasol



shaq without kobe

2 nba finals
1 nba title
0 nba finals mvps
0 nba mvp's
1 scoring title
2 first team all nba's
0 first team all defense ( 0 with kobe anyway )

best team mates = top 11-12 all time lebron james, top 25 all time dwyane wade, top 25 all time garnett, top 35 all time steve nash, top 35 all time paul pierce, top 40 all time ray allen, 1st team all nba penny hardaway

Here bro, take this

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[ISHGoat]

so you cant dispute anything and keep spamming smileys as a response. only way i'd expect you to reply honestly. you lack creativity/intelligence

its pretty much documented that kobe stans are generally women or dudes majoring in liberal arts or some shit. Aka illogical. There is no point debating with irrational people.

[kennethgriffin]

Here bro, take this

:roll:



na man na... this is what its all about








:whatever: :lebronamazed: :dancin :basketball

:violin: :djparty :party:

:durantunimpressed: :yaohappy:





















https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tOsQv-rrEE


GOT EEEM

[SouBeachTalents]

I'm assuming if the Lakers never got Kobe they'd seek out a perimeter sidekick for Shaq, maybe trade for or sign a top 15 caliber player to be their second option. If so, they'd almost certainly still win a ring in '00, and while they wouldn't come close to their 15-1 record, they'd still win a ring in '01 as well. In '02 unless that player was averaging 25 ppg, the Lakers would lose to either the Spurs or Kings that year. So imo 2 rings with the Lakers and 1 with the Heat, so he'd have 1 less ring, 1 less Finals MVP

[tpols]

Portland and kings would have rings.. depending on who they brought aboard shaq might get one in 2001. and then another with wade so he'd have maybe 1 or 2 rings.

Shaq cant win with just a run of the mill all star like Eddie jones or penny.. he needs a bonfide top 5 player all time for his position to win.. Aka wade and kObe. He needs closers and take over players to seal the deal otherwise it'll be some pretty 30/15 statline with a sweep

[mehyaM24]

Shaq would still collude with some other sg and win.
don't know about colluding, but ya, shaq would with any other sg. very true.

without big men, the farthest kobe has been during the postseason, was a first round exit. otoh, shaq had multiple conference finals appearances and a finals trip.

it stands to reason, considering shaq was the RAPM king from 98-05 (kobe has never led the league in RAPM, which measures impact AND is used by gms, coaches and analysts all over the league) that he would in fact have multiple rings and still be a top 5 goat.

[scm5]

Shaq would probably have one or two rings less without Kobe.

Gasol would likely have no rings, but would have found a place on another team and helped make at least a contender and gained the recognition he should have.

I actually would like to think that Memphis would have somehow gotten Marc Gasol to pair with Pau. If that happened, Pau would definitely have a shot at winning championships. Multiple even!

[tpols]

I'm assuming if the Lakers never got Kobe they'd seek out a perimeter sidekick for Shaq, maybe trade for or sign a top 15 caliber player to be their second option. If so, they'd almost certainly still win a ring in '00, and while they wouldn't come close to their 15-1 record, they'd still win a ring in '01 as well. In '02 unless that player was averaging 25 ppg, the Lakers would lose to either the Spurs or Kings that year. So imo 2 rings with the Lakers and 1 with the Heat, so he'd have 1 less ring, 1 less Finals MVP
In 2000 they were on the ropes in the wcf.. there's no "certainly" about coming back double digits in the 4th Q of a game 7. The exact opposite really. .

They had a higher chance winning 2002 than 2000 actually.. but both were won by the slimmest of margins

[ISHGoat]

ITT: kobe stans arguing that shaq got carried by kobe. You guys dont even know how silly it sounds.

[SouBeachTalents]

In 2000 they were on the ropes in the wcf.. there's no "certainly" about coming back double digits in the 4th Q of a game 7. The exact opposite really. .

They had a higher chance winning 2002 than 2000 actually.. but both were won by the slimmest of margins

While I won't necessarily dispute your first point, maybe that series doesn't even go 7 games with a different SG. Kobe averaged 17 ppg on 41% through the first 5 games of that series, rather mediocre. Maybe if that player was putting up 20 on 45% instead they close it out in 5 games

[dubeta]

League Wide FG% would increase by 3

[kamil]

They would still win their rings, but one thing does change: one less white girl raped in colorado

:rolleyes:

[tpols]

While I won't necessarily dispute your first point, maybe that series doesn't even go 7 games with a different SG. Kobe averaged 17 ppg on 41% through the first 5 games of that series, rather mediocre. Maybe if that player was putting up 20 on 45% instead they close it out in 5 games

Why would you say maybe the Lakers could've won in less than 7.. and then cut out kobes game 6 and only use games 1-5 stats? Seems a little dishonest when that game 6 would drastically improve his averages no?

That's an extremely simplistic way of looking at things as well.. kobe had 21 ppg on 45% shooting in 99.. guess what? Lakers got swept.

Penny Hardaway once averaged 26ppg on 47% shooting..... another sweep.


You can't just add a couple ppg to helps average and say a team certainly would've won especially given the fact that they had loads of trouble as it was and the player you're replacing is better than his replaceMent. Logic says that they'd almost certainly lose.

[mehyaM24]

I'm assuming if the Lakers never got Kobe they'd seek out a perimeter sidekick for Shaq, maybe trade for or sign a top 15 caliber player to be their second option. If so, they'd almost certainly still win a ring in '00, and while they wouldn't come close to their 15-1 record, they'd still win a ring in '01 as well. In '02 unless that player was averaging 25 ppg, the Lakers would lose to either the Spurs or Kings that year. So imo 2 rings with the Lakers and 1 with the Heat, so he'd have 1 less ring, 1 less Finals MVP
agreed. 2000 was the easiest to replace because kobe was a mere role player in the finals (outscored by austin croshere, who averaged ~15ppg).

http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/2014/03/2000-rapm-non-prior-and-prior-informed.html - just check the RPI version, which is basically PURE rapm.

kobe's overall impact in 2000 was nowhere close to the top 10, so if shaq had more help during the playoffs, or say, a vince carter/eddie jones, 2 of the highest impact guards at that time? the lakers would have taken care of phoenix, sacramento, portland & indiana much quicker & in a more dominating fashion (makes this interesting, because neither of those guys are HOFers or in the top 50).

[tpols]

lol at this Mehya dude deleting his posts to make the next page.... serious biz Nazz up in here

[mehyaM24]

lol at this Mehya dude deleting his posts to make the next page.... serious biz Nazz up in here
i think you got me mixed up with somebody else, bud.

anyway, good posts soubeach. the facts certainly checkout :cheers:

[SouBeachTalents]

Why would you say maybe the Lakers could've won in less than 7.. and then cut out kobes game 6 and only use games 1-5 stats? Seems a little dishonest when that game 6 would drastically improve his averages no?

That's an extremely simplistic way of looking at things as well.. kobe had 21 ppg on 45% shooting in 99.. guess what? Lakers got swept.

Penny Hardaway once averaged 26ppg on 47% shooting..... another sweep.


You can't just add a couple ppg to helps average and say a team certainly would've won especially given the fact that they had loads of trouble as it was and the player you're replacing is better than his replaceMent. Logic says that they'd almost certainly lose.

You make valid points, I just brought up Kobe's Games 1-5 stats and while simplistic, was just trying to say that if they were receiving better production from their second option than 17 ppg on 41%, they could have closed the series out in 5 games.

[clipps]

Well, Kobe's the reason why Eddie Jones was traded in the first place so I think Eddie would stick with the Lakers a lot longer if not retired a Laker. Kobe was a big reason why Phil left the first time and why Shaq left, so Shaq would have stuck around a lot longer it not retired a Laker. I'm sure with the extra cap space, the Lakers would have made an offer to free agents such as Tim Duncan, TMac, Grant Hill, etc. I think T Mac's career would have lasted longer if he had Shaq. Even though Yao was great, T Mac still had a huge load to carry with Magic and Rockets. Remember there was a pretty good chance of Duncan leaving the Spurs for the Magic. I'm sure if the Lakers had the money to make a run at him, Tim would be a Laker.

I used to think Kobe was the only reason why the 3 peat Lakers. But now, I believe Shaq was part of the problem too. He has a pattern with getting in feuds with other star teammates and burning bridges so I can't say there would be no animosity if he was teamed up with Tmac or Tim Duncan.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

agreed. 2000 was the easiest to replace because kobe was a mere role player in the finals (outscored by austin croshere, who averaged ~15ppg).

http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/2014/03/2000-rapm-non-prior-and-prior-informed.html - just check the RPI version, which is basically PURE rapm.

kobe's overall impact in 2000 was nowhere close to the top 10, so if shaq had more help during the playoffs, or say, a vince carter/eddie jones, 2 of the highest impact guards at that time? the lakers would have taken care of phoenix, sacramento, portland & indiana much quicker & in a more dominating fashion (makes this interesting, because neither of those guys are HOFers or in the top 50).

This is what Eddie Jones and Vince Carter actually did in the 2000 playoffs...

http://i.imgur.com/6gjN7cP.png

http://i.imgur.com/QFY8nqX.png

:confusedshrug: