Kobe faced worse defenses (higher DRtg's) during his Non-Shaq runs

[3ball]

.
League-Wide DRtg in REGULAR SEASON:


1996: 107.6
1997: 106.7
1998: 105.0

2008: 107.5
2009: 108.3
2010: 107.6

Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html



League-Wide DRtg in PLAYOFFS (each year is link to source):

1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997.html#all_misc_stats): 106.8
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998.html#all_misc_stats): 105.6

2008 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
2009 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2009.html#all_misc_stats): 107.7
2010 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010.html#all_misc_stats): 108.6


:confusedshrug: .. But even though Kobe's Non-Shaq rings came vs. softer defenses than MJ's 2nd three-peat years, his stats were worse than MJ's:


REGULAR SEASON - 1996-1998 vs. 2008-2010

MJ..... 29.6 PPG, 48.2% FG, 2 MVP, schooled Kobe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365450)
Kobe.. 27.4 PPG, 46.1% FG, no schooling, literally


PLAYOFFS:

MJ..... 31.4 PPG, 45.9% FG, beat Malone and Shaq
Kobe.. 29.8 PPG, 46.4% FG, free of being 2nd fiddle to Shaq


FINALS

MJ..... 31.1 PPG, 43.4% FG, 3 FMVP, GOAT clutch
Kobe.. 29.2 PPG, 41.3% FG, 2 FMVP, no memorable clutch

Source: basketball-reference.com


At 33-35 years old, MJ's stats vs. lower DRtg defenses (better defenses) were superior to Kobe's 29-31 year old stats against higher DRtg defenses (worse defenses).

MJ had better stats, against better defenses.. Imagine if didn't give Kobe a head start and actually compared to MJ's prime??.. Better not.. :facepalm .. It's amazing how much better MJ was than Kobe.. :bowdown:
.

[KobesFinger]

96 Sonics*

DRtg - 102.1 (2)
Opp PPG - 96.7 (8)
Opp FG% - 43.8 (2)
Opp TOPG - 18.5 (1)

97 Jazz

DRtg - 104.0 (9)
Opp PPG - 94.3 (8)
Opp FG - 43.8 (6)
OPP TOPG - 16.2 (9)

98 Jazz

DRtg - 105.4 (17)
Opp PPG - 94.4 (13)
Opp FG% - 43.9 (9)
Opp TOPG - 14.1 (26)

08 Celtics*

DRtg - 98.9 (1)
Opp PPG - 90.3 (2)
Opp FG% - 41.9 (1)
Opp TOPG - 16.0 (3)

09 Magic*

DRtg - 101.9 (1)
Opp PPG - 94.4 (6)
Opp FG% - 43.3 (3)
Opp TOPG - 13.1 (25)

10 Celtics

DRtg - 103.8 (5)
Opp PPG - 95.6 (5)
Opp FG% - .451 (9)
Opp TOPG - 15.6 (2)

* - DPOY

So if we rank them on each metric

DRtg

1) 08 Celtics
2) 09 Magic
3) 96 Sonics
4) 10 Celtics
5) 97 Jazz
6) 98 Jazz

Opp PPG

1) 08 Celtics
2) 97 Jazz
3) 98 Jazz
3) 09 Magic
5) 10 Celtics
6) 96 Sonics

Opp FG%

1) 08 Celtics
2) 09 Magic
3) 96 Sonics
3) 97 Jazz
5) 98 Jazz
6) 10 Celtics

Opp TOPG

1) 09 Magic
2) 98 Jazz
3) 10 Celtics
4) 08 Celtics
5) 97 Jazz
6) 96 Sonics

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Everyone knows jordan >>>>>kobe

By the way, what is this no gif nonsense?

[Jacks3]

average DRTG relative to league average, which the only thing that matters.

Kobe post-season 08-10: -3.3
Jordan post-season 96-98: -2.9

wrong again OP.

[Jacks3]

So if we rank them on each metric

DRtg

1) 08 Celtics
2) 09 Magic
3) 96 Sonics
4) 10 Celtics
5) 97 Jazz
6) 98 Jazz


this the problem with just looking at the raw DRTG

the 98 jazz were a mediocre/below-average defensive team. they had a 105.4
DRTG in a league where the average was 105.0

that is terrible especially for a finals team

meanwhile kobe played a celtics defense that was the best of all-time outside of the 04 pistons (8.6 points below league-average DRTG!)

a magic team that was -6.2 points better, which is a top 25 mark of all-time

and a celtics team that was -3.8 during the reg season despite blatantly costing and was -6.2 through the first three rounds of the post-season, which is one of the best marks ever.

kobe played far better defenses in the finals.

[3ball]

Useless regular season stats used to gauge performance of PLAYOFF opponents.. :rolleyes:


PLAYOFF DRtg's of MJ-Kobe Finals Opponents:

1) 1998 Utah:... 100.4
2) 2009 Magic:.. 101.9
3) 2010 Celtics:. 103.3
4) 1996 Sonics:. 104.1
5) 2008 Celtics:. 105.3
6) 1997 Utah:.... 106.7


But its useless to cherry-pick just one series of an entire playoff anyway - here are the LEAGUE-WIDE playoff DRtgs:


League-Wide DRtg in PLAYOFFS:

1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997.html#all_misc_stats): 106.8
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998.html#all_misc_stats): 105.0

2008 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
2009 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2009.html#all_misc_stats): 107.7
2010 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010.html#all_misc_stats): 108.6


^^^ And there is it in black and white - the playoff teams from MJ's 2nd three-peat in 1996-1998 had lower DRtgs than the playoff teams during Kobe's run in 2008-2010.. This is in additional to the same thing happening in the regular season, as the OP stats showed.. :confusedshrug:
.

[BigNBAfan]

MJ Mentioned? check
More numbers than words? check
Op a ******? check

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Long_81fdfc_2262010.jpg

[KobesFinger]

PLAYOFF DRtg's of MJ-Kobe Finals Opponents:

1) 1998 Utah:... 100.4
2) 2009 Magic:.. 101.9
3) 2010 Celtics:. 103.3
4) 1996 Sonics:. 104.1
5) 2008 Celtics:. 105.3
6) 1997 Utah:.... 106.7


But its useless to cherry-pick just one series of an entire playoff anyway - here are the LEAGUE-WIDE playoff DRtgs:


League-Wide DRtg in PLAYOFFS:

1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997.html#all_misc_stats): 106.8
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998.html#all_misc_stats): 105.0

2008 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
2009 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2009.html#all_misc_stats): 107.7
2010 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010.html#all_misc_stats): 108.6


^^^ And there is it in black and white - the playoff teams from MJ's 2nd three-peat in 1996-1998 had lower DRtgs than the playoff teams during Kobe's run in 2008-2010.. :confusedshrug:
.

96: 104.1 - 106.8 = -2.7 (4th) (7th in the league)
97: 106.7 - 107.4 = -0.7 (6th) (5th in the league)
98: 100.4 - 105.6 = -4.2 (2nd) (1st in the league)

08: 103.3 - 107.4 = -4.1 (3rd) (2nd in the league)
09: 105.3 - 107.7 = -2.4 (5th) (3rd in the league)
10: 101.7 - 108.6 = -6.9 (1st) (2nd in the league)

Two of the top three are teams Kobe faced, so my point still stands.

You also used the wrong numbers.

[3ball]

.
League-Wide DRtg in REGULAR SEASON:


1996: 107.6
1997: 106.7
1998: 105.0

2008: 107.5
2009: 108.3
2010: 107.6


MJ's 2nd three-peat run had lower DRtg opponents in regular season than Kobe's Non-Shaq ring seasons in 2008-2010.



League-Wide DRtg in PLAYOFFS:

1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997.html#all_misc_stats): 106.8
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998.html#all_misc_stats): 105.0

2008 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
2009 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2009.html#all_misc_stats): 107.7
2010 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010.html#all_misc_stats): 108.6


^^^ And there is it in black and white - the league-wide DRtg in the regular season AND PLAYOFFS was lower for MJ's 2nd three-peat in 1996-1998 than it was for Kobe's Non-Shaq rings in 2008-2010.. :confusedshrug:
.

[3ball]

96: 104.1 - 107.4 = -3.3 (4th)
97: 106.7 - 108.8 = -0.1 (6th)
98: 100.4 - 105.0 = -4.6 (3rd)

08: 105.3 - 107.4 = -2.1 (5th)
09: 101.9 - 107.7 = -5.8 (1st)
10: 103.3 - 108.6 = -5.3 (2nd)

Two of the top three are teams Kobe faced, so my point still stands.


Even though you're literally cherry-picking 1 series out of each playoff run, it could still go either way - MJ faced the toughest defense overall of ANY team (Utah 1998) and has 2 of the 3 lowest 2nd places..

But more importantly, as listed in the previous post, the stats show that 1996-1998 had lower league-wide DRtg than 2008-2010 in both the regular season and playoffs.. Cherry picking 1 series is useless.

.

[KobesFinger]

Even though you're literally cherry-picking 1 series out of each playoff run, it could still go either way - MJ faced the toughest defense overall of ANY team (Utah 1998) and has 2 of the 3 lowest 2nd places..

But more importantly, as listed in the previous post, the stats show that league-wide DRtg was lower from 1996-1998 than from 2008-2010 in both the regular season and playoffs.. Cherry picking 1 series is useless.

.

Except I'm not, those are the numbers for the entire playoffs. You also pulled numbers out of thin air. 08 Celtics regular season DRtg was 98.9 and their playoff DRtg was 103.3, yet you said it was 105.3

[BigNBAfan]

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Long_81fdfc_2262010.jpg

[3ball]

The stats are waht they are

[3ball]

kobe has always performed worse against like defenders (shawn marion, jason kidd, richard jefferson, gary payton, and many more).

[3ball]

I'll post a comprehensive list of the all-nba defenders each guy has faced

[3ball]

.
Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding Kobe

Shawn Marion
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Lebron James
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest
Thabo Sefalosha
Shane Battier (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10924107&postcount=24)
Tony Allen
Raja Bell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw&t=8m51s)
Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen
Michael Jordan
Doug Christie
Larry Hughes



Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding MJ

Dennis Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858)
Michael Cooper
Derrick Mckey
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
Kobe Bryant
John Starks
Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)
Doug Christie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s)
Anthony Mason
Clifford Robinson
Nate McMillan
Kevin Garnett (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352753)
Dan Majerle
Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ)
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Bobby Phills
Paul Pressey
Rodney McCray
Ron Artest (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV52IrBoj90)


MJ's Best Two-Way Opponents:

Penny Hardaway (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692264&postcount=24)
Grant Hill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10667322#post10667322)
Kobe Bryant (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365450)
Clyde Drexler (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695321&postcount=8)
Dominique Wilkins (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744903&postcount=25)
Ron Harper
Reggie Lewis (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989)
Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y)
Sean Elliot
Michael Finley
Kendall Gill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744186&postcount=18)
Richard Dumas (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692400&postcount=30)
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse


Also, the list above doesn't include many of the tremendous offensive wings that MJ faced including: Dr. J, James Worthy, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond, Alex English, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Jeff Malone, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034)

[3ball]

kobe has always performed worse against like defenders (shawn marion, jason kidd, richard jefferson, gary payton, and many more).


Here's a simple example of how much worse Kobe did against the same defenders - for his career, Kobe faced a WASHED UP Gary Payton for 28 games, yet Payton still averaged 21 PPG to Kobe's 20 PPG.

Whereas in 15 career games vs Payton, MJ got 31 PPG, mostly against the mid-90's Sonics THREESOME of prime, DPOY Gary Payton and All-NBA defenders Derrick McKey (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11297382&postcount=36) and Nate McMillan:

Career Averages:

MJ vs. DPOY Payton: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01
Kobe vs. Washed-Up Payton: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=paytoga01
.

[BigNBAfan]

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Long_81fdfc_2262010.jpg

[3ball]

08 Celtics regular season DRtg was 98.9 and their playoff DRtg was 103.3, yet you said it was 105.3


Makes no difference - 1996-1998 had lower league-wide DRtg in both the regular season and playoffs than 2008-2010 - sources are included:


League-Wide DRtg in REGULAR SEASON:


1996: 107.6
1997: 106.7
1998: 105.0

2008: 107.5
2009: 108.3
2010: 107.6

Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html


MJ's 2nd three-peat run had lower league-wide DRtg in both the regular season and playoffs than Kobe's Non-Shaq championship years.



League-Wide DRtg in PLAYOFFS (each year is link to source):

1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997.html#all_misc_stats): 106.8
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998.html#all_misc_stats): 105.6

2008 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
2009 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2009.html#all_misc_stats): 107.7
2010 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010.html#all_misc_stats): 108.6


^^^ And there is it in black and white - 1996-1998 had lower league-wide DRtg in both the regular season AND PLAYOFFS than 2008-2010.. :confusedshrug: .
.

[tragicbronson]

What exactly is your point bro? I am a huge kobe's fan and i know and i am aware of the fact that Jordan was a better player, Kobe is one of the best, Jordan is probably the best, why do you feel the need to bring up Jordan and his legacy all the time, you know how good he was, what he mean to the NBA and basketball and you know that most people know that, and why do you still need to open numerous topics that are almost same, with the same point, trying to prove just one thing, that mostly know? :confusedshrug:

[gts]

MJ Mentioned? check
More numbers than words? check
Op a ******? check

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Long_81fdfc_2262010.jpglong time no see long cat... now stop it :lol