does kobe's 1st ring really count??

[SpaceJammeR]

shaq scored 228 total points averaging 38 pts 16 rbs. on 60%
kobe scored 78 total points averaging 15 pts 4 asst. on 37%
in game 6 kobe had his infamous clutch ft game although shooting 8/27
rice scored 69 points
harper scored 65 pionts
shaq scored more than kobe, rice, and harper combined.

[the_troof]

It counts but its like a Fisher ring.. he was a role player, the team was all Snaq

[dynasty1978]

It counts if Wade and Pippen's rings count. Kobe was 21,4,4 that post-season and playing some of the best d in the league.

He was the perfect robin to shaq's batman that year, and in some cases was putting the team on his back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I5e1fh2TXs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teIq5v0tTnY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVEgPqaApyo

Not bad for a 21 year old.

[Optimus Prime]

None of LeBeta's rings count. 1st is refs and lockout. 2nd is Ray Allen.

5/7 >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2*/5

Deal with it. :kobe:

http://www.sportsonearth.com/assets/images/9/0/6/64207906/cuts/Kobe_Bryant_fj4wygm5_foisdgp8.jpg

[ArbitraryWater]

who cares... they all count... even if you don't give weight to it, you're still giving in to the ring argument, and Kobe fans could own you with "4>2", since you yourself admitted the others count and obviously bought into the ring counting.

[Prometheus]

Well he was a role player, albeit a very good one. It counts that much.

2002 does not count though. I don't know why this doesn't get brought up more, but Tim Donaghy knows what's up.

[imdaman99]

Why shouldn't it count? The one time they needed him in the Finals, when Shaq fouled out in a pivotal game, Kobe willed the team to victory and a 3-1 lead. You remember that overtime game? No of course not, I doubt you were even born.

[Optimus Prime]

Why shouldn't it count? The one time they needed him in the Finals, when Shaq fouled out in a pivotal game, Kobe willed the team to victory and a 3-1 lead. You remember that overtime game? No of course not, I doubt you were even born.

Yikes. The truth destroying these LeBeta stans. :bowdown:

[imdaman99]

:lol you Lebron stans are so dumb and insecure. A role player? Shaq has never won with only just role players, he needs that superstar that could take over in the 4th quarters. You know, like Kobe and Wade. Unfortunately the guy he joined with after that was not exactly a closer, which is why they lost :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

game-winner against the Suns
game-saving block on Sabonis on the road and 25/12/7/4 in Game 7 at home
led the Lakers to a OT victory on the road in Indiana with Shaq fouled out

28/4/4 on 50% shooting first round vs Sacramento
21/4/3 on 45% shooting vs Suns
20/5/6/2/2 on 44% shooting, 53% from 3 vs Portland

He averaged 22/4/5/2/2 on 46% shooting with 36% from 3 before the ankle injury....I guess those are role player numbers :kobe:

Lakers don't make the Finals without him blocking Sabonis in Game 3 and leading the team in points, rebounds, assists and blocks in Game 7.

[sportjames23]

Why shouldn't it count? The one time they needed him in the Finals, when Shaq fouled out in a pivotal game, Kobe willed the team to victory and a 3-1 lead. You remember that overtime game? No of course not, I doubt you were even born.


Damn. :oldlol:

[pauk]

Kobe is top 10 in my book because of mainly those last 2 championship runs (he proved he could lead a team to the promise land as the best player in his team, he was far more & the most impactful/prominent/accountable there) and because he is the 2nd most talented/skilled SG i ever seen, with great individual honors (all-nba/all-defensive, stat totals etc.) and amazing longevity.... he has 2 fmvps and 1 mvp aswell....

What im trying to say is that you could remove Kobe's first 3 championship runs and i would still consider him a Top 10 player of all-time, he would perhaps just drop 1 single digit down on my list........

Ofcourse his first few rings/championship runs count.... but they count for what they are in their context.... which is Havlicek/Pippen or Wade (12-13) type of rings/championship runs.... and i dont know why so many Kobe fans see the pun there, Shaq was the most dominant player i ever seen (more dominant than Jordan) during that peak, even though Kobe was important aswell obviously it was Shaq who was the most responsible/accountable player for that Laker success....

Its not bad, it counts, but nowhere near to the same significancy as his last 2 championship runs/rings, where meanwhile he also got some other meaningful accolades aswell (mvp/fmvp and simply being the best player arguably in the game).....

If those first 3 rings were really as significant/achieved the same way as his last 2 then i would rank Kobe top 2-4..... because that would mean he won all 5 championships as the man, the most accountable player for that result and if he really was that good that means he would also surely get more than 1 mvp and 2 fmvps aswell.... easily would then be top 2-4.... but thats not the case...

[ImKobe]

Kobe is top 10 in my book because of mainly those last 2 championship runs (he proved he could lead a team to the promise land as the best player in his team, he was very impactful/prominent/accountable there) and because he is the 2nd most talented/skilled SG i ever seen, with great individual honors (all-nba/all-defensive, stat totals etc.) and amazing longevity.... he has 2 fmvps and 1 mvp aswell....

What im trying to say is that you could remove Kobe's first 3 championship runs and i would still consider him a Top 10 player of all-time, he would perhaps just drop 1 single digit down on my list........

Ofcourse his first few rings/championship runs count.... but they count for what they are in their context.... which is Havlicek/Pippen type of rings/champoionship runs.... and i dont know what so many Kobe fans see the pun there, Shaq was the most dominant player i ever seen (more dominant than Jordan) during that peak....

Its not bad, it counts, but nowhere near to the same significancy as his last 2 championship runs/rings, where meanwhile he also got some other meaningful accolades aswell (mvp/fmvp and simply being the best player arguably in the game).....

If those first 3 rings were really as significant/achieved the same way as his last 2 then i would rank Kobe top 2-4..... because that would mean he won all 5 championships as the man, the most accountable player for that result and if he really was that good that means he would also surely get more than 1 mvp and 2 fmvps aswell.... easily would then be top 2-4.... but thats not the case...

2001 - 29/7/6 on 47% shooting
2002 - 27/6/5 on 43% shooting

2009 - 30/5/6 on 46% shooting
2010 - 29/6/6 on 46% shooting

so, how come do people say that 01 and 02 are role player rings and that they don't matter as much as his last two, when his production on the court is pretty much the same? 2001 he had identical production to Shaq through the 11 straight games that they won..2002 Finals he goes 27/6/5 on 52% shooting with 55% from deep

Who cares if he had Shaq for help? Every all-time great has needed the help of his teammates to win titles. For some, it was a stacked roster (Lebron 2012 and 2013), for some it's one great teammate that they share an equal load with..

no one discounts the 5 rings Kareem won while playing with Magic, Worthy, Scott, Cooper...Jordan had a bunch of great teammates that also saved his ass in critical moments, Duncan had at least 4 HOFers that played a big role in his 5 rings.

[kennethgriffin]

his average only looked bad cause he was taken out of a game early in the 1st quarter with only 2 points.

take that game away and kobe averaged 19ppg for the series

he had 28/4/5/1/2 in game 4 with shaq fouled out. won the game for LA a few days after LA lost without kobe in the lineup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSdhzK-ud3U

its still looked back as one of the greatest performances in finals history considering

a) his age ( 21 )
b) his injury ( sprained ankle )
c) the importance of the game ( whoever took it would more than likely win the series )
d) shaq out of the game
e) game winning go ahead shots


kobe also had 26/10/4/1/2 in the championship sealing game 6

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFHqwat3Wm8

with the key sealing free throws





and they never even get to the finals if not for this

25/11/7 with 4 blocks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I5e1fh2TXs

down 15 in the 4th quarter. the lakers choke this series away and never even make the finals if not for Kobe

THIS was the real nba finals

kobe averaged 20/5/6/1/2 for the WCF



kobe averaged 23/5/5/2/2 for the western confrence first 3 rounds ( nearly all 3 teams being a tougher matchup for LA than the finals

sacramento and portland gave the lakers their toughest battles that year

and kobe was at his best with both series going the distance and coming up to a winner take all



kobe vs sacramento in round 1 averaged 28/4/4/1





kobe hit a game winner vs the suns aswell


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teIq5v0tTnY





so to answer OP's question.... duh

[pauk]

2001 - 29/7/6 on 47% shooting
2002 - 27/6/5 on 43% shooting

2009 - 30/5/6 on 46% shooting
2010 - 29/6/6 on 46% shooting

so, how come do people say that 01 and 02 are role player rings and that they don't matter as much as his last two, when his production on the court is pretty much the same? 2001 he had identical production to Shaq through the 11 straight games that they won..2002 Finals he goes 27/6/5 on 52% shooting with 55% from deep

Who cares if he had Shaq for help? Every all-time great has needed the help of his teammates to win titles. For some, it was a stacked roster (Lebron 2012 and 2013), for some it's one great teammate that they share an equal load with..

no one discounts the 5 rings Kareem won while playing with Magic, Worthy, Scott, Cooper...Jordan had a bunch of great teammates that also saved his ass in critical moments, Duncan had at least 4 HOFers that played a big role in his 5 rings.

Like i said Kobe was great and important to their success obviously.... Shaq wouldnt have won those championships if Kobe wasnt there (well, maybe that 1st one he maybe would hehe)...... the point is as good as Kobe was it was Shaq who was "the man" there, the biggest puzzle, the most accountable/impactful player, he was that good, that FILTHY good... easily the most dominant player i ever seen.... its not Kobe's fault...

But you can say this with all equivalent sidekicks in history who won a championship like that... for example:

Pippen was extremly important, Jordan wouldnt have won any of those rings without him...

Wade was extremly important, Lebron wouldnt have won any of those rings without him...

you could go on forever, many examples....

Yes, but it was Jordan, Lebron who were the biggest reason to that success, they were the best player in their teams and the best players in the league, while they were that / the most accountable player for that success they were honored because of that with MVPs, FMVPs and given the title "best players in the league" etc. aswell..... Which is what Shaq was during those 3 championship runs.... dont you agree?

Kobe has only 2 such championship runs..... and with everything else he has done, thats what really boosted him up into the top 10 list.... I mean can you just imagine Kobe's career/legacy without those 2 years? Kobe would then have only 3 rings of that sidekick context on his resume.... and some stat totals etc..... and thats it, he would be nowhere near top 10 / where he is at now....

[kennethgriffin]

Like i said Kobe was great and important to their success obviously.... Shaq wouldnt have won those championships if Kobe wasnt there (well, maybe that 1st one he maybe would hehe)...... the point is as good as Kobe was it was Shaq who was "the man" there, the biggest puzzle, the most accountable/impactful player, he was that good, that FILTHY good... easily the most dominant player i ever seen.... its not Kobe's fault...

But you can say this with all equivalent sidekicks in history who won a championship like that... for example:

Pippen was extremly important, Jordan wouldnt have won any of those rings without him...

Wade was extremly important, Lebron wouldnt have won any of those rings without him...

you could go on forever, many examples....

Yes, but it was Jordan, Lebron who were the biggest reason to that success, they were the best player in their teams and the best players in the league, while they were that / the most accountable player for that success they were honored because of that with MVPs, FMVPs and given the title "best players in the league" etc. aswell..... Which is what Shaq was during those 3 championship runs.... dont you agree?

Kobe has only 2 such championship runs.....

a) the 2000 lakers barely scraped by... sneaking a key victory on the back of kobe in game 7 wcf

no kobe = no ring for shaq in 2000

b) with glen rice gone for the last 2 titles... on a 2 man squad where both must average basically 30ppg to win... take away either man away and theres no championship

any time you take away 29/7/6... the outlook isnt pretty

whos gonna step up for the lakers? their next best player was fisher

[HOoopCityJones]

I'm still astonished people can call Kobe a role player in that first title fun with a straight face. The Portland series, Spurs before that. His numbers only dropped in The Finals because he was purposely injured (as admitted by Jalen Rose numerous times) despite this he still plays, not worrying about stats or shit like that just going out there and grinding it out, then he comes up big in game 4 of The Finals after Shaq fouls out essentially clinching the series on the Pacer's home floor.

If that's role player shit, what was 2011, Lebron fans?

[ShawkFactory]

If arguing with a Kobe stan of course it doesn't.

If arguing with an actual fan of basketball of course it does.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Why shouldn't it count? The one time they needed him in the Finals, when Shaq fouled out in a pivotal game, Kobe willed the team to victory and a 3-1 lead. You remember that overtime game? No of course not, I doubt you were even born.

damn, dont do em like that :biggums:

[HOoopCityJones]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFHqwat3Wm8

https://youtu.be/3-kpF8bOg7g

[ClipperRevival]

Kobe is top 10 in my book because of mainly those last 2 championship runs (he proved he could lead a team to the promise land as the best player in his team, he was far more & the most impactful/prominent/accountable there) and because he is the 2nd most talented/skilled SG i ever seen, with great individual honors (all-nba/all-defensive, stat totals etc.) and amazing longevity.... he has 2 fmvps and 1 mvp aswell....

What im trying to say is that you could remove Kobe's first 3 championship runs and i would still consider him a Top 10 player of all-time, he would perhaps just drop 1 single digit down on my list........

Ofcourse his first few rings/championship runs count.... but they count for what they are in their context.... which is Havlicek/Pippen or Wade (12-13) type of rings/championship runs.... and i dont know why so many Kobe fans see the pun there, Shaq was the most dominant player i ever seen (more dominant than Jordan) during that peak, even though Kobe was important aswell obviously it was Shaq who was the most responsible/accountable player for that Laker success....

Its not bad, it counts, but nowhere near to the same significancy as his last 2 championship runs/rings, where meanwhile he also got some other meaningful accolades aswell (mvp/fmvp and simply being the best player arguably in the game).....

If those first 3 rings were really as significant/achieved the same way as his last 2 then i would rank Kobe top 2-4..... because that would mean he won all 5 championships as the man, the most accountable player for that result and if he really was that good that means he would also surely get more than 1 mvp and 2 fmvps aswell.... easily would then be top 2-4.... but thats not the case...

Agreed. I am infinitely more impressed with Kobe's 2 rings as "the man" than his 3 as 2nd fiddle. Nothing carries more weight than winning as "the man". Had Kobe never won those 2 rings later in his career, his legacy would've always been in question, and rightfully so. But when he carried those Laker teams to back-to-back titles, there were no more questions.

[SwayDizzle]

Why shouldn't it count? The one time they needed him in the Finals, when Shaq fouled out in a pivotal game, Kobe willed the team to victory and a 3-1 lead. You remember that overtime game? No of course not, I doubt you were even born.
beta stans are shoock

[dubeta]

It's equivalent to Lebrons rookie of the year award. They cancel each other out

[Droid101]

I'm still astonished people can call Kobe a role player in that first title fun with a straight face. The Portland series, Spurs before that. His numbers only dropped in The Finals because he was purposely injured (as admitted by Jalen Rose numerous times) despite this he still plays, not worrying about stats or shit like that just going out there and grinding it out, then he comes up big in game 4 of The Finals after Shaq fouls out essentially clinching the series on the Pacer's home floor.

If that's role player shit, what was 2011, Lebron fans?
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[RRR3]

I don't even like Kobe but of course it counts :kobe:

All rings count to some degree if you're part of the team, especially if you're a rotation player who contributes positively. And Bean was the 2nd best player on his team and averaged 21/5/4 in the playoffs so he obviously was important.

[Hey Yo]

Kobe stans keep referencing game 4 when Shaq fouled out, but fail to mention he put up 36 and 21 before leaving the game. Lakers finished with 42trb, Shaq had half of them, but yep....Kobe won it for them, :facepalm

[RRR3]

I'm still astonished people can call Kobe a role player in that first title fun with a straight face. The Portland series, Spurs before that. His numbers only dropped in The Finals because he was purposely injured (as admitted by Jalen Rose numerous times) despite this he still plays, not worrying about stats or shit like that just going out there and grinding it out, then he comes up big in game 4 of The Finals after Shaq fouls out essentially clinching the series on the Pacer's home floor.

If that's role player shit, what was 2011, Lebron fans?
2011 was a choke. And LeBron didn't win that year.

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe stans keep referencing game 4 when Shaq fouled out, but fail to mention he put up 36 and 21 before leaving the game. Lakers finished with 42trb, Shaq had half of them, but yep....Kobe won it for them, :facepalm


And it would have all been for nothing without kobe saving the day

[Levity]

Nah, i dont think it counts. cause i mean... cmon! the writings on the wall. and at the same time, i kind of dont count his last two rings. but thats because he got away with rape. and to me, thats now fair to award him with two rings after that. ya dig?

[HOoopCityJones]

Nah, i dont think it counts. cause i mean... cmon! the writings on the wall. and at the same time, i kind of dont count his last two rings. but thats because he got away with rape. and to me, thats now fair to award him with two rings after that. ya dig?

Rep for literally capturing Lebron stan logic. :roll:

[Yoshi]

Of course it counts. Troll threads :facepalm

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe averaged 25/5/5 combined for his first 3 rings...

Thats a better average than 80% of guys who lead a team to the title

[ImKobe]

Kobe stans keep referencing game 4 when Shaq fouled out, but fail to mention he put up 36 and 21 before leaving the game. Lakers finished with 42trb, Shaq had half of them, but yep....Kobe won it for them, :facepalm

Lakers lost the previous game with Kobe out :confusedshrug:

Lakers would have lost 3 in a row at Indiana if Kobe never came back after Game 2

Shaq also put up these beast stats in the 90s and even in 2005 post-Kobe, he didn't win a single Finals game before Wade (and refs) went off in the 06 Finals.

Shaq without Kobe in the Finals - 4 wins 7 losses = 36%
Shaq with Kobe in the Finals - 13 wins 6 losses = 68%

Shaq had an average +/- of -6,3 in the 06 Finals.

But we don't take that ring away from him and call it a "role player ring", do we? :coleman:

[ClipperRevival]

Kobe averaged 25/5/5 combined for his first 3 rings...

Thats a better average than 80% of guys who lead a team to the title

And that's why he is the greatest 2nd fiddle ever. But there was absolutely no denying who "the man" was during this time. Shaq. One of the most dominant and greatest peaks ever. When teams faced the Lakers, they had to worry about stopping Shaq first. He was the focus of the opposition first and foremost. He had to carry that burden and face the doubles on almost every touch. That carries weight. Everything i said is the truth. There is a pecking order on most teams.

Kobe was clearly "the man" in 2009 and 2010. He endured what Shaq endured. Being the focal point of defenses and having the burden of carrying the team.

[ClipperRevival]

Lakers lost the previous game with Kobe out :confusedshrug:

Lakers would have lost 3 in a row at Indiana if Kobe never came back after Game 2

Shaq also put up these beast stats in the 90s and even in 2005 post-Kobe, he didn't win a single Finals game before Wade (and refs) went off in the 06 Finals.

Shaq without Kobe in the Finals - 4 wins 7 losses = 36%
Shaq with Kobe in the Finals - 13 wins 6 losses = 68%

Shaq had an average +/- of -6,3 in the 06 Finals.

But we don't take that ring away from him and call it a "role player ring", do we? :coleman:

And everyone knows Shaq was 2nd fiddle to Wade in 2006. So that ring doesn't carry as much weight as one of the rings he won in LA.

[dubeta]

Boiled down:



2/7 (FMVP)

[ClipperRevival]

Lakers lost the previous game with Kobe out :confusedshrug:

Lakers would have lost 3 in a row at Indiana if Kobe never came back after Game 2

Shaq also put up these beast stats in the 90s and even in 2005 post-Kobe, he didn't win a single Finals game before Wade (and refs) went off in the 06 Finals.

Shaq without Kobe in the Finals - 4 wins 7 losses = 36%
Shaq with Kobe in the Finals - 13 wins 6 losses = 68%

Shaq had an average +/- of -6,3 in the 06 Finals.

But we don't take that ring away from him and call it a "role player ring", do we? :coleman:

Did anyone say Kobe sucked or didn't contribute? I said he's the best 2nd fiddle EVER, which is saying A LOT during that 3 peat. But what some of us are saying is that there was a pecking order and Kobe was 2nd on that order. And that is indisputable.

This question isn't whether he contributed or played a huge role because he obviously did. He had some monster games in the WC playoffs. And you can make a serious argument that in 2001, Kobe was almost 1A. But still, in the end, Shaq was "the man".

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Such an obvious agenda thread. Will neg.

[chazzy]

game-winner against the Suns
game-saving block on Sabonis on the road and 25/12/7/4 in Game 7 at home
led the Lakers to a OT victory on the road in Indiana with Shaq fouled out

28/4/4 on 50% shooting first round vs Sacramento
21/4/3 on 45% shooting vs Suns
20/5/6/2/2 on 44% shooting, 53% from 3 vs Portland

He averaged 22/4/5/2/2 on 46% shooting with 36% from 3 before the ankle injury....I guess those are role player numbers :kobe:

Lakers don't make the Finals without him blocking Sabonis in Game 3 and leading the team in points, rebounds, assists and blocks in Game 7.
Yeah, people cite his poor finals numbers (which include a 9 min game in the averages) and think he was just a Jamal Crawford along for the ride that entire year/playoff run. Especially OP listing total finals numbers, which is basically putting Kobe at a 2 game disadvantage

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Ask Portland

[Droid101]

Ask Portland
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Kevin-Garnett-Reaction-at-2013-Dunk-Contest.gif

[Ne 1]

His averages are actually 19/6/4 in the 4 games he played in vs Pacers taking into account he left the game early in the 1st quarter after Jalen Rose admittedly intentionally injured Bryant in Game 2. Kobe was hobbled and limped around throughout the series, and he missed Game 2 and Game 3, so that explains why his numbers were down. But yeah, he did have a sub-par series in general, though a lot of that can be attributed to the injury in Game 2. He twisted his ankle early in the 1st quarter and left the game. He also didn't play in Game 3, but returned the next game disregarding the team doctors orders. He single handedly carried the team when Shaq fouled out in the 4th quarter, he hit 4 huge free throws and lit the Pacers up in overtime. So considering he came up with a legendary clutch performance in Game 4 and also put up 26/10/4/2/1 with only 1 turn over playing excellent defense in the clinching game, it's not a big deal. His defense on Mark Jackson was impressive throughout the series, reminiscent of Pippen's defense on Jackson in the 1998 conference finals. Also, it shouldn't be forgotten how big Kobe came through in the clutch in the other playoff rounds either, particularly Game 7 vs Portland, and his production prior to the Finals was right there with his regular season.

[choppermagic]

Kobe stans keep referencing game 4 when Shaq fouled out, but fail to mention he put up 36 and 21 before leaving the game. Lakers finished with 42trb, Shaq had half of them, but yep....Kobe won it for them, :facepalm

Wow, you should facepalm yourself. No one here is saying Shaq's ring should be taken away or discounted for 2001. They are saying Kobe was critical to that ring, as well as Shaq. Nice try

[Optimus Prime]

Did anyone say Kobe sucked or didn't contribute? I said he's the best 2nd fiddle EVER, which is saying A LOT during that 3 peat. But what some of us are saying is that there was a pecking order and Kobe was 2nd on that order. And that is indisputable.

This question isn't whether he contributed or played a huge role because he obviously did. He had some monster games in the WC playoffs. And you can make a serious argument that in 2001, Kobe was almost 1A. But still, in the end, Shaq was "the man".

:kobe: "People say 2nd fiddle..."

http://oi51.tinypic.com/2mq3v5i.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BESnCrgCAAEHKku.jpg

:durantunimpressed: "Indisputable"

:facepalm

[navy]

Let's get real for a second. If Lebron or Jordan averaged what Kobe did for that first ring in the playoffs and in the finals and they had a first option average what Shaq did would Kobe stans count that ring like any other?

The answer is no.

[SouBeachTalents]

Let's get real for a second. If Lebron or Jordan averaged what Kobe did for that first ring in the playoffs and in the finals and they had a first option average what Shaq did would Kobe stans count that ring like any other?

The answer is no.

I'd love to see how people would have treated LeBron's first ring had he won in 2011 with a similar Finals performance to what he had

[navy]

I'd love to see how people would have treated LeBron's first ring had he won in 2011 with a similar Finals performance to what he had
Exactly. Kobe stans are ready to discount Lebron's ring this year to Kyrie even if they win nomatter what he averages. Which is my point. You can read it in their post.They know damn well that only because it's Kobe they would count some shit like that. Talking about, hitting a game winner in a post season where Shaq averaged 30/15. :lol. Dont get me started on what happened in those Finals, where yeah I know Kobe was injured. Tim Duncan a role player? Well damn, at least he's a similar level to his other role players. Comparing the level Kobe played at the level SHaq was that first season is just idiotic. I'd love to see Lebron average numbers like that and have Kyrie average 30/15 and see the reaction.

[Wade's Rings]

Shaq also put up these beast stats in the 90s and even in 2005 post-Kobe, he didn't win a single Finals game before Wade (and refs) went off in the 06 Finals.

:facepalm @ These Kobe Stans.

Lets act like Kobe didn't shoot 16 Free Throws per Game vs Utah in 2008.

Lets act like In 2001 Kobe didn't shoot 15 Free Throws a game vs the Kings.

[ClipperRevival]

:kobe: "People say 2nd fiddle..."

http://oi51.tinypic.com/2mq3v5i.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BESnCrgCAAEHKku.jpg

:durantunimpressed: "Indisputable"

:facepalm

And that's why I specifically said that you could make a strong argument that in 2001, he was 1A more than a second fiddle. But in terms of the entire 3 peat run, yes, Kobe was 2nd fiddle. And THAT is indisputable. :cheers:

[tpols]

And that's why I specifically said that you could make a strong argument that in 2001, he was 1A more than a second fiddle. But in terms of the entire 3 peat run, yes, Kobe was 2nd fiddle. And THAT is indisputable. :cheers:

Well yea if you average it all out.. obviously. Shaq was an MDE candidate at his peak..kobe was not even in his prime to start the 3peat.. you put any other all time great before he enters his prime.. next to PEAK shaq, yea they'd average a second fiddle too.

What's impressive is that kobe matched peak shaq in the first year of his prime (2001).

That's why kobe > shaq.

[buddha]

if Kobe's 3 peat rings don't count than Tim Duncan only has 2 rings..

[tpols]

I'd love to see how people would have treated LeBron's first ring had he won in 2011 with a similar Finals performance to what he had

Uh.. dude if lebron had gotten intentionally hurt and also been pre prime you'd have a point. But he was perfectly healthy.. prime of his career, no reason for it.

[Wade's Rings]

if Kobe's 3 peat rings don't count than Tim Duncan only has 2 rings..

He was Finals MVP for 3 rings doe.

[34-24 Footwork]

Kobe Haters having a hard time rewriting history in the information age. lol.

With youtube being the prevalent choice for videos and the numerous soundbites that are included....all of these myths will began to fade away. We marvel at a guy whose score 40 points and 5 reb in todays game. But Frobe dropped 48pts, 16reb in a playoff game. Lol. If his name wasn't Kobe Bryant, NO ONE ON EARTH would say that he got carried.

Kobe is the first athlete that people hated because he was just too good, too early.

Lol @ people sad because Kobe won 3 rings early in his career. The mad because they just KNEW he wouldn't win anymore. Lmao.

[SpaceJammeR]

point being... if this was lebron, jordan, or any other star most would consider them being carried. kobe was hurt? so shaq had even more backpacking to do.
game 4 yeah sure kobe was clutch in the end but forget that shaq scored 36 and 21. that laker team was carried in the finals. shaq is a beast.

[Hey Yo]

Kobe Haters having a hard time rewriting history in the information age. lol.

With youtube being the prevalent choice for videos and the numerous soundbites that are included....all of these myths will began to fade away. We marvel at a guy whose score 40 points and 5 reb in todays game. But Frobe dropped 48pts, 16reb in a playoff game. Lol. If his name wasn't Kobe Bryant, NO ONE ON EARTH would say that he got carried.

Kobe is the first athlete that people hated because he was just too good, too early.

Lol @ people sad because Kobe won 3 rings early in his career. The mad because they just KNEW he wouldn't win anymore. Lmao.
HAHA......thanks for the laugh and showing your age.

[Relinquish]

None of LeBeta's rings count. 1st is refs and lockout. 2nd is Ray Allen.

5/7 >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2*/5

Deal with it. :kobe:

http://www.sportsonearth.com/assets/images/9/0/6/64207906/cuts/Kobe_Bryant_fj4wygm5_foisdgp8.jpg

Kobe has 2 rings. '00 WCF game 7, '02 WCF game 6 and '10 finals were rigged.

:kobe:

Get some logic bud. The same trash arguments can be used against you.

And if you want to be technical, 0 rings. Beating the Magic doesn't count. :kobe:

[34-24 Footwork]

HAHA......thanks for the laugh and showing your age.

On a scale of 1 to pretzel, how salty are you?:lol

[NumberSix]

Well, it exists, so it counts.

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe has 2 rings. '00 WCF game 7, '02 WCF game 6 and '10 finals were rigged.

:kobe:

Get some logic bud. The same trash arguments can be used against you.

And if you want to be technical, 0 rings. Beating the Magic doesn't count. :kobe:



Jesus can you even sit down to sh*t without dipping that prolapse in shitty toilet water...

[Done_And_Done]

Yes

[Optimus Prime]

And that's why I specifically said that you could make a strong argument that in 2001, he was 1A more than a second fiddle. But in terms of the entire 3 peat run, yes, Kobe was 2nd fiddle. And THAT is indisputable. :cheers:

Kobe was only the "second fiddle" in 2000. In 2001 and beyond, he was equal to or better than Shaq. Kobe was still a kid entering his prime during the three-peat, while Shaq was in his prime and leaving it during the end of the three-peat.

The fact that you don't know what you're talking about is indisputable.

:kobe:

[Showtime2001]

If Duncan's last 2 rings "count" then so does Kobe's first

deal with it.

http://s30.postimg.org/iub8nbxqp/11117335_10205494142207211_587409578_n_jpg_oh_fc.j pg

[Relinquish]

Jesus can you even sit down to sh*t without dipping that prolapse in shitty toilet water...

Sorry, kobetard logic was overtaking my brain at that moment. :(

[Hey Yo]

Kobe was only the "second fiddle" in 2000. In 2001 and beyond, he was equal to or better than Shaq. Kobe was still a kid entering his prime during the three-peat, while Shaq was in his prime and leaving it during the end of the three-peat.

The fact that you don't know what you're talking about is indisputable.

:kobe:
2 FMVP's to ZERO "after 2000" says otherwise.

Trying to get his first one ( ignoring Pjax and Shaq) against Detroit was a spectacular FAIL.

[dubeta]

If Duncan's last 2 rings "count" then so does Kobe's first

deal with it.

http://s30.postimg.org/iub8nbxqp/11117335_10205494142207211_587409578_n_jpg_oh_fc.j pg


Neither do.


FMVP or bust

[Hey Yo]

If Duncan's last 2 rings "count" then so does Kobe's first

deal with it.

http://s30.postimg.org/iub8nbxqp/11117335_10205494142207211_587409578_n_jpg_oh_fc.j pg
Where's the Finals averages and FG percentages?

[oh the horror]

Where's the Finals averages and FG percentages?



So series leading up to get them to the finals somehow don't count or do those pictures shit on your argument so basically you have to keep skipping around to fractions of a point to try to save yourselves?



Face it, you fools sound stupid as f*ck with this nonsense

[Wade's Rings]

Where's the Finals averages and FG percentages?

The bottom pictures have the FG%.

[Showtime2001]

Neither do.


FMVP or bust
Kawhi Leonard > Karl Malone

Cool story brah.

:lol

[dubeta]

Kawhi Leonard > Karl Malone

Cool story brah.

:lol

U mad?

[Showtime2001]

U mad?

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20NBA%20Record/Lebron%20James/aka%20big%20choker/lebron-james-2011-nba-final-4q.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pmktzFF.jpg

[Wade's Rings]

U mad?


http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20NBA%20Record/Lebron%20James/aka%20big%20choker/lebron-james-2011-nba-final-4q.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pmktzFF.jpg

:lebronamazed:

[dubeta]

Can believe Kobe got SWEPT by the same Mavs team :oldlol:


Wasn't even given a chance to choke, just quivered and ran for Gasol to protect him

[Wade's Rings]

Can believe Kobe got SWEPT by the same Mavs team :oldlol:


Wasn't even given a chance to choke, just quivered and ran for Gasol to protect him

Was he outscored by a role player? :oldlol:

[Showtime2001]

Can believe Kobe got SWEPT by the same Mavs team :oldlol:


Wasn't even given a chance to choke, just quivered and ran for Gasol to protect him
Never lost FMVP to a role player and outscored by a bench player doe.

:yaohappy:

[dubeta]

Was he outscored by a role player? :oldlol:


Wasn't wade out scored by every role player imaginable last playoffs? :biggums:



Sit down, little boy :oldlol:

[buddha]

He was Finals MVP for 3 rings doe.

you're right. I thought Manu got that finals MVP in 05. he was on the same level as Duncan in that series.

[Wade's Rings]

Wasn't wade out scored by every role player imaginable last playoffs? :biggums:



Sit down, little boy :oldlol:

Tony Parker, Tim Duncan, and Kawhi Leonard outscored Wade.

Try again :oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe 00 playoffs
21/4/4

KAJ 87 playoffs
19/7/2

KAJ 88 playoffs
14/5/2

Shaq 06 playoffs
18/10/2

Duncan 07 playoffs
22/11/3

Duncan 14 playoffs
16/9/2

Resulted in rings and no fmvp :confusedshrug:

[Hey Yo]

So series leading up to get them to the finals somehow don't countor do those pictures shit on your argument so basically you have to keep skipping around to fractions of a point to try to save yourselves?



Face it, you fools sound stupid as f*ck with this nonsense
They do only to Kobe fans. When they say "LeBron choked in 2011 Finals" do you ever see "but look what he did before the Finals" to lessen the blow?

They talk about whats done BEFORE the Finals and then laugh at others at what they did / didn't do IN the Finals.

If Kobe didn't shit to bed so many times in the Finals, then his stans wouldn't be using his "playoff stats" all the time.

Those are the cold hard FACTS!

[SouBeachTalents]

Wasn't wade out scored by every role player imaginable last playoffs? :biggums:



Sit down, little boy :oldlol:

Which role players outscored Wade last postseason?

[knicksman]

Kobe is top 10 in my book because of mainly those last 2 championship runs (he proved he could lead a team to the promise land as the best player in his team, he was far more & the most impactful/prominent/accountable there) and because he is the 2nd most talented/skilled SG i ever seen, with great individual honors (all-nba/all-defensive, stat totals etc.) and amazing longevity.... he has 2 fmvps and 1 mvp aswell....

What im trying to say is that you could remove Kobe's first 3 championship runs and i would still consider him a Top 10 player of all-time, he would perhaps just drop 1 single digit down on my list........

Ofcourse his first few rings/championship runs count.... but they count for what they are in their context.... which is Havlicek/Pippen or Wade (12-13) type of rings/championship runs.... and i dont know why so many Kobe fans see the pun there, Shaq was the most dominant player i ever seen (more dominant than Jordan) during that peak, even though Kobe was important aswell obviously it was Shaq who was the most responsible/accountable player for that Laker success....

Its not bad, it counts, but nowhere near to the same significancy as his last 2 championship runs/rings, where meanwhile he also got some other meaningful accolades aswell (mvp/fmvp and simply being the best player arguably in the game).....

If those first 3 rings were really as significant/achieved the same way as his last 2 then i would rank Kobe top 2-4..... because that would mean he won all 5 championships as the man, the most accountable player for that result and if he really was that good that means he would also surely get more than 1 mvp and 2 fmvps aswell.... easily would then be top 2-4.... but thats not the case...

nah. wade and bosh>>shaq
yet 2/5 << 5/7:kobe:

[knicksman]

Wasn't wade out scored by every role player imaginable last playoffs? :biggums:



Sit down, little boy :oldlol:

bran stans=beta

[gts]

it's amazing how many idiots will try and degrade a players career based on a couple games here and there while ignoring the hundreds of good ones he had..

The ultimate goal of the sport is to win games yet we have morons trying to diminish even games that the players won :lol based on one or two shots...

[ArbitraryWater]

it's amazing how many idiots will try and degrade a players career based on a couple games here and there while ignoring the hundreds of good ones he had..

The ultimate goal of the sport is to win games yet we have morons trying to diminish even games that the players won :lol based on one or two shots...

players dont win games though... man Americans are so ****ed up, can't blame y'all, its just the way team Sports is being reported to you guys through the media..

[red1]

the autobiography

http://www.arktos.com/media/catalog/product/cache/6/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/b/o/book_of_five_rings.jpeg

[gts]

players dont win games though... Then they don't lose them either... So with your post I can assume we won't be seeing you in anymore player comparison threads.. just team threads right?

The rest of your post just is just more of your inane worthless noise so we'll let that one go

[ArbitraryWater]

Then they don't win them either... So with your post I can assume we won't be seeing you in anymore player comparison threads.. just team threads right?

The rest of your post just is just more of your inane worthless noise so we'll let that one go

man you're so sensitive... we can talk about what individuals did, but they definitely don't win any games :cheers:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

players dont win games though... man Americans are so ****ed up, can't blame y'all, its just the way team Sports is being reported to you guys through the media..
If not for players, who wins games? Fans? :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

People try to take Kobe's rings away from him when he was 21-23 years old while playing with Shaq, despite putting up elite numbers and deciding key games :kobe:

he put up peak Jordan numbers at age 22, having more winshares than Shaq, and people say his rings don't count lol...

[TheMarkMadsen]

If not for players, who wins games? Fans? :oldlol:

:lol :lol

[34-24 Footwork]

People try to take Kobe's rings away from him when he was 21-23 years old while playing with Shaq, despite putting up elite numbers and deciding key games :kobe:

he put up peak Jordan numbers at age 22, having more winshares than Shaq, and people say his rings don't count lol...

Pretty much this. It's shameful how much and how long people have hated this guy. They've hated kobe since 9/11. Lol. Dude has been good SINCE THEN.

[tpols]

man you're so sensitive... we can talk about what individuals did, but they definitely don't win any games :cheers:

Bran fan confirmed :lol

[The Iron Sheik]

does op's first time having sex really count if it was with his pillow?

[ImKobe]

Pretty much this. It's shameful how much and how long people have hated this guy. They've hated kobe since 9/11. Lol. Dude has been good SINCE THEN.

dude ran the whole system and Shaq didn't win a single Finals game before Kobe became a star player and Lakers don't even make the Finals without Kobe

but somehow Kobe is a cancer and a role player :biggums:

[SouBeachTalents]

People try to take Kobe's rings away from him when he was 21-23 years old while playing with Shaq, despite putting up elite numbers and deciding key games :kobe:

he put up peak Jordan numbers at age 22, having more winshares than Shaq, and people say his rings don't count lol...

False. Peak Jordan was putting up 35/7/7 on 50% in the playoffs, including 31 & 11, 35, and 41 ppg in 3 straight Finals. As great as Kobe was in '01, he wasn't touching that, especially in the Finals

[ShawkFactory]

False. Peak Jordan was putting up 35/7/7 on 50% in the playoffs, including 31 & 11, 35, and 41 ppg in 3 straight Finals. As great as Kobe was in '01, he wasn't touching that, especially in the Finals
Right?! :lol

Kobe has never put up peak Jordan numbers in any form.

[HOoopCityJones]

Kobe 00 playoffs
21/4/4

KAJ 87 playoffs
19/7/2

KAJ 88 playoffs
14/5/2

Shaq 06 playoffs
18/10/2

Duncan 07 playoffs
22/11/3

Duncan 14 playoffs
16/9/2

Resulted in rings and no fmvp :confusedshrug:

Ni99as avoiding this post like the plague.

[BigBoss]

http://www.the4pointplay.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Rings.jpg

[ImKobe]

False. Peak Jordan was putting up 35/7/7 on 50% in the playoffs, including 31 & 11, 35, and 41 ppg in 3 straight Finals. As great as Kobe was in '01, he wasn't touching that, especially in the Finals

32/7/6 on 49% shooting through the first 3 rounds is close enough.

[Kvnzhangyay]

how the **** can a ring not count? :facepalm

Dumbest logic ever. How can it be his fault for playing with the most dominant center (I've seen)??

[Legends66NBA7]

Kobe and LeBron fans take turns being dumbasses making threads like these.

[ImKobe]

how the **** can a ring not count? :facepalm

Dumbest logic ever. How can it be his fault for playing with the most dominant center (I've seen)??

And Lakers were pretty average outside of Kobe and Shaq

What's the difference, really? You either have one great teammate or a bunch of all-star caliber players and great role players...

Kobe in 01 and 02 carried an equal load compared to 09 and 10.

[T_L_P]

Kobe 00 playoffs
21/4/4

KAJ 87 playoffs
19/7/2

KAJ 88 playoffs
14/5/2

Shaq 06 playoffs
18/10/2

Duncan 07 playoffs
22/11/3

Duncan 14 playoffs
16/9/2

Resulted in rings and no fmvp :confusedshrug:

Firstly, to reply to the topic: of course Kobe's first ring counts.

Now for you: the 00 Kobe/07 Duncan comparison is a joke. Duncan's play, especially in the postseason, was another planet to Kobe's.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=duncati01&y1=2007&p2=bryanko01&y2=2000&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Higher in PPG, RPG, BPG, TS%, PER, WS, WS/48, Box +/-, #1 in league-wide RAPM by a large margin. His defense was twice as impactful.

Duncan was at worst top 3 in 07; if we're judging impact by more than just raw numbers, Duncan is likely #1.

Kobe was probably 9th or 10th in 00 (Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Zo, Glove, Robinson, Webber, Malone >)

Again, of course Kobe's first ring counts. But the difference between him and the actual best player on his team is probably the largest for any top 10 player ring, outside of Kareem's last (where he was an absolute shell).

[SouBeachTalents]

Firstly, to reply to the topic: of course Kobe's first ring counts.

Now for you: the 00 Kobe/07 Duncan comparison is a joke. Duncan's play, especially in the postseason, was another planet to Kobe's.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=duncati01&y1=2007&p2=bryanko01&y2=2000&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Higher in PPG, RPG, BPG, TS%, PER, WS, WS/48, Box +/-, #1 in league-wide RAPM by a large margin. His defense was twice as impactful.

Duncan was at worst top 3 in 07; if we're judging impact by more than just raw numbers, Duncan is likely #1.

Kobe was probably 9th or 10th in 00 (Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Zo, Glove, Robinson, Webber, Malone >)

Again, of course Kobe's first ring counts. But the difference between him and the actual best player on his team is probably the largest for any top 10 player ring, outside of Kareem's last (where he was an absolute shell).

Lol, that distinction will probably forever belong to '88 Kareem. And '06 Shaq would be up there too

[T_L_P]

Lol, that distinction will probably forever belong to '88 Kareem. And '06 Shaq would be up there too

I literally just said Kareem in 88. You quoted it. :biggums:

Shaq is another good one, though mentioning him proves my point entirely. Kobe Stans call that the epitome of a role player ring and it barely counts ("could only win with Kobe or when he got carried").

[Anaximandro1]

the most selfish player is also the player who completely depends on his teammates to win titles. Sad but true.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SQe6Af7D0Ao/VU3ld8HSTXI/AAAAAAAAEXY/78t8f1Uvxu0/s1600/a.jpg

[SpaceJammeR]

the most selfish player is also the player who completely depends on his teammates to win titles. Sad but true.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SQe6Af7D0Ao/VU3ld8HSTXI/AAAAAAAAEXY/78t8f1Uvxu0/s1600/a.jpg

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[Spurs5Rings2014]

the most selfish player is also the player who completely depends on his teammates to win titles. Sad but true.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SQe6Af7D0Ao/VU3ld8HSTXI/AAAAAAAAEXY/78t8f1Uvxu0/s1600/a.jpg

I think that about settles it. Duncan is top 5, dead or alive.

:bowdown:

[Magic 32]

the most selfish player is also the player who completely depends on his teammates to win titles. Sad but true.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SQe6Af7D0Ao/VU3ld8HSTXI/AAAAAAAAEXY/78t8f1Uvxu0/s1600/a.jpg

Can you find the stats for this...

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/620749_o.gif

[Ne 1]

And Lakers were pretty average outside of Kobe and Shaq

What's the difference, really? You either have one great teammate or a bunch of all-star caliber players and great role players...

Kobe in 01 and 02 carried an equal load compared to 09 and 10.
Great point. The 3-peat Lakers had below average role players at each position outside of Kobe and Shaq, the team wasn't very talented outside of them and relied heavily on their 2 stars which is why the both deserve a huge amount of credit for those rings. And they didn't just win 1 title, they were a dynasty and out of all the dynasties in the history of the league they were overall the least talented out side of their star players. Also for all this talk about "alphas" and #1 options" usually, when a guy is the undisputed alpha, he's the player taking the last shots, closing out games, being a go to guy when the game is on the line among many other things. For the Lakers, that was often Kobe Bryant. That isn't often examined... Kobe was generally "plan B" throughout the game as far as scoring goes. However in the 4th quarter, he often became "plan A" and sometimes, "plan AA" if Phil sat Shaq because of hack-a-Shaq. In the history of the game, how often were guys who were riding the coattails of other players asked to take over so consistently? Plus, it's not like Kobe was a role player or a Tony Parker level 2nd option.
He was part of a one-two punch duo, and he averaged 21/5/4, 29/7/6, 27/6/5 in the playoffs.

[Straight_Ballin]

:lol you Lebron stans are so dumb and insecure. A role player? Shaq has never won with only just role players, he needs that superstar that could take over in the 4th quarters. You know, like Kobe and Wade. Unfortunately the guy he joined with after that was not exactly a closer, which is why they lost :oldlol:

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/oh-boy-gif.png