How clutch is rose??

[NZStreetBaller]

i havent really seen much of him over the past 2 years So i thought id ask you guys instead after this wicked game winner he just pulled off.

[navy]

He's about as clutch as anyone else. So average. Probably isolates too much in the fourth though, which again everyone does. However he's not good at shooting freethrows in close games.

[305Baller]

lucky, but it took balls to take the shot.

[Budadiiii]

I'd say he's fearless but he doesn't thrive in the clutch like Jordan did, or Durant does now.

That GW was pure luck though. He missed his target by a foot. It was actually a terrible shot but I'm sure he'll take it.

[NZStreetBaller]

so is he like on that ray allen level??

OR kobe level

or like damian lillard level or what??

finish this sentence

D rose is as clutch as .......(insert NBA player here)

[Pointguard]

He's about as clutch as anyone else. So average. Probably isolates too much in the fourth though, which again everyone does. However he's not good at shooting freethrows in close games.
That's a contradiction if I ever saw one.

Rose lead the league in 4th quarter turnarounds on a team that was 20th in points scored and had the most wins in the league. I don't know who was the last 22 year old to do that, I doubt that it was ever done before. As a rookie he was the best player on his team in arguably the most exciting playoff series ever. He won a couple of games there as well. In 2011 he was clutch in the first two series and the first game against the Heat.

[Angel Face]

One of the top clutch players in the league today. Dude is cold blooded. Even before this game winner, Just how many times he took over in the 4th.

[navy]

That's a contradiction if I ever saw one.

Rose lead the league in 4th quarter turnarounds on a team that was 20th in points scored and had the most wins in the league. I don't know who was the last 22 year old to do that, I doubt that it was ever done before. As a rookie he was the best player on his team in arguably the most exciting playoff series ever. He won a couple of games there as well. In 2011 he was clutch in the first two series and the first game against the Heat.
I can do this for literally any star player to be honest. This is the very definition of average. Some clutch moments and not clutch moments. Average to below average fourth quarter stats. Never won anything (yet) in the playoffs. Played terrible in the clutch in his biggest series so far.

How is that not average?

[Pointguard]

so is he like on that ray allen level??

OR kobe level

or like damian lillard level or what??

finish this sentence

D rose is as clutch as .......(insert NBA player here)
Age wise he was better than they were. But he missed three years. So its hard to measure now because they were working on their resumes while he was hurt. Age wise only Jordan, Lebron and Magic come immediately to mind as being better and more prolific. Duncan and Durant were more accomplished players at 22 years old but weren't in as many clutch situations. I can't say I got everybody on recall right now. I'm sure I forgot somebody.

[Pointguard]

I can do this for literally any star player to be honest. This is the very definition of average. Some clutch moments and not clutch moments. Average to below average fourth quarter stats. Never won anything (yet) in the playoffs. Played terrible in the clutch in his biggest series so far.

How is that not average?
Jordan wasn't close to winning anything in the playoffs but you knew he was clutch. Name me the guy who at 22 years of age that didn't have bad moments, outside of Jordan on a larger scale? Most guys it doesn't come together til they are 27 years old. So one bad series out of five isn't enough to make Rose average at all. That Bulls team could not break a trap - nobody is going to look good in that situation.

[navy]

Jordan wasn't close to winning anything in the playoffs but you knew he was clutch. Name me the guy who at 22 years of age that didn't have bad moments, outside of Jordan on a larger scale? Most guys it doesn't come together til they are 27 years old. So one bad series out of five isn't enough to make Rose average at all. That Bulls team could not break a trap - nobody is going to look good in that situation.
That 1 bad series was the only noteworthy one for his career (so far) unless you count the ncaa. Win that series and they had a real chance at winning the finals. He not only was terrible, he was deplorable. I didnt say that he was suppose to win or that he choked or anything like that, but he certainly hasnt done anything to be called anything other than average in the clutch for a star player so far. :confusedshrug:

[Yoshi]

Tonight, he was really ****ing clutch.

[Bobcats2013]

Before the injury he wasn't clutch.

Now after the injury its clear the nikka has gone off the deep end and gives zero phucks. He's more clutch than ever now.

[G0ATbe]

He's pretty much lebald tier in that regard. Will hit a fluke shot every couple years and will choke away countless games too.

[ApexPredator]

This was only his 2nd career game winner. But his career has been relatively short.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

He's pretty much lebald tier in that regard. Wilt hit a fluke shot every couple years and will choke away countless games too.

I read it as that at first.

:roll:

[BIG FURB]

This was only his 2nd career game winner. But his career has been relatively short.

I think you mean playoff gamewinner

[Roundball_Rock]

He is very clutch. He is clearly our closer despite the team having many good offensive options.

[ArbitraryWater]

Rose is average in the clutch, like anyone else...

if you ask about people actually STCKING out in clutch moments, I would say Ray Allen, Dirk, Horry, Fisher, MJ, Bird, Sam Jones, Jerry West.... all with a great % and except 3 guys, all Superstars, high volume....

[pauk]

Clutch = not being afraid to fail/take the last shot/pressure shot...

Thats all that really means and yes he is clutch, just like many NBA players are i would say....

Now if you are talking about how successful he has been in clutch moments or especially past 2 years.... after the return from the injury, not so successful.... this was his only buzzer beating gamewinner in many years and maybe his only one (dont remember, so im not sure).... It is however his only one in his playoff career from what i remember, a lucky one aswell, afterall he faded out from 3pt land rearranging the shot to not get it blocked from Tristan, resulting in it banking in.... not a bucket Rose gets/takes/makes often....

[Pointguard]

That 1 bad series was the only noteworthy one for his career (so far) unless you count the ncaa. Win that series and they had a real chance at winning the finals.
LOL, If you play in 6 series, you have 6 noteworthy series. You, as a obsessed hater, don't decide which ones are noteworthy or not. Where do you get this idea that you are the great decider? Its comical? Clutch has nothing to do with separate series. Everybody has bad ones. It has to do with courage in critical situations and ability to make things happen overall. In six series you pick one series when the cards were crazily stacked against him. Its like you have no context at all in how to think. Name me five better clutch players before they were 22 than Rose. Simple enough.


He not only was terrible, he was deplorable. I didnt say that he was suppose to win or that he choked or anything like that, but he certainly hasnt done anything to be called anything other than average in the clutch for a star player so far. :confusedshrug:
Deplorable??? He wins two rounds on his back and you want to be taken seriously? Really? They were close in every game with him being the only weapon in four games (ok One game from Boozer). In fact its closer to being clutch than deplorable. Stop using words that you don't know the meaning of. Deplorable is when you quit, that's deplorable. You over exaggerating one series is a bit crazy

[DMAVS41]

Jordan wasn't close to winning anything in the playoffs but you knew he was clutch. Name me the guy who at 22 years of age that didn't have bad moments, outside of Jordan on a larger scale? Most guys it doesn't come together til they are 27 years old. So one bad series out of five isn't enough to make Rose average at all. That Bulls team could not break a trap - nobody is going to look good in that situation.

Dude.

He's once again shooting under 50% TS and has a 101 offensive rating. He's playing really good defense when he has his legs though...and that is actually making a big impact.

I don't think you grasp just how bad, not average, Rose is in terms of scoring efficiency for super star players in the playoffs.

If his offensive efficiency holds at this rate for this year...he'll have one year of his entire career over 50% TS...which would be 52.7% all the way back in 09.

Rose is clearly an above average player overall and I'd say he's above average in crunch time as well, but for a superstar? He's below average overall and he's about average in crunch time.

Just the truth.

[yobore]

In that game he made a clutch play and some not so clutch plays. So often the clutch or choker thing is just random luck. IIRC his 4th quarters in his MVP season playoffs were abysmal. We all remember the last thing he did but if Cleveland made a couple of their misses end of game field goal misses or missed free throw would have been what posters were talking about, which would be just as stupid.

[DMAVS41]

LOL, If you play in 6 series, you have 6 noteworthy series. You, as a obsessed hater, don't decide which ones are noteworthy or not. Where do you get this idea that you are the great decider? Its comical? Clutch has nothing to do with separate series. Everybody has bad ones. It has to do with courage in critical situations and ability to make things happen overall. In six series you pick one series when the cards were crazily stacked against him. Its like you have no context at all in how to think. Name me five better clutch players before they were 22 than Rose. Simple enough.

Deplorable??? He wins two rounds on his back and you want to be taken seriously? Really? They were close in every game with him being the only weapon in four games (ok One game from Boozer). In fact its closer to being clutch than deplorable. Stop using words that you don't know the meaning of. Deplorable is when you quit, that's deplorable. You over exaggerating one series is a bit crazy

Nobody cares about beating shitty East teams in the first 2 rounds. It's not noteworthy at all. This whole, advancing in the playoffs things, going around for East players/teams is really stupid. They play scrubs. Right now, this depleted Cavs team wouldn't even have made it out of the first round in the West. Would have been the 6th/7th seed at best and would have gotten smoked in their current form with no Love, hurt Kyrie, no JR for 2 games.

It's just the truth.

[JellyBean]

i havent really seen much of him over the past 2 years So i thought id ask you guys instead after this wicked game winner he just pulled off.

Umm maybe because he hasn't completed a full season in 2 years. But for being clutch, he is as clutch as other top players on their respective teams. He took the shot and made it. If he would have missed the shot, would we call him clutch, choker, or bad teammate for not passing?

[Pointguard]

Nobody cares about beating shitty East teams in the first 2 rounds. It's not noteworthy at all. This whole, advancing in the playoffs things, going around for East players/teams is really stupid. They play scrubs. Right now, this depleted Cavs team wouldn't even have made it out of the first round in the West. Would have been the 6th/7th seed at best and would have gotten smoked in their current form with no Love, hurt Kyrie, no JR for 2 games.

It's just the truth.
:lol This has absolutely nothing to do with clutch. Nothing at all.

Rose set a playoff record in his first game against the world champs and one of the best perimeter defenses at the time. It was the probably the closest series ever and definitely one of the most exciting ever. Good defensive teams are harder to make clutch shots on. This whole East/West thing isn't a factor in arguing what is clutch. Sorry, not at all. Defense is more important and that the East is always on par.

[Pointguard]

Dude.

He's once again shooting under 50% TS and has a 101 offensive rating. He's playing really good defense when he has his legs though...and that is actually making a big impact.

I don't think you grasp just how bad, not average, Rose is in terms of scoring efficiency for super star players in the playoffs.

If his offensive efficiency holds at this rate for this year...he'll have one year of his entire career over 50% TS...which would be 52.7% all the way back in 09.

Rose is clearly an above average player overall and I'd say he's above average in crunch time as well, but for a superstar? He's below average overall and he's about average in crunch time.

Just the truth.
BS%

You need a different topic dude. Jordan was by far the best clutch player I ever seen. He makes Dirk look like a little kid. And neither one is killing it in TS %. Nor would I want the top five career TS% Artis Gilmore, Tyson Chandler, Cedri Maxwell, James Donalson or Adrian Dantley being my clutch model. Sorry. Its just you bringing up irrelevant nonsense again.

[Legends66NBA7]

This was only his 2nd career game winner. But his career has been relatively short.

Is it really ?

I remember that other one. It was against Milwaukee in 11/12, on the step back. This was one was a lot tougher, especially considering the context.

[Budadiiii]

Pretty funny this thread gets brought up after a lucky, off-balance, bank shot.

Look, Rose wasn't clutch down the stretch. He airballed two layups, missed a free throw, and then missed his target by over a foot at the buzzer. That's not clutch.

Jimmy Butler's play to put them up 1 was clutch... he took JR all the way to the hoop and had the composure to pivot away and make the layup. Great footwork.

Rose wasn't clutch at all in this game. He hit a couple lucky jumpers ... wow, color me impressed. :rolleyes:

No... the guy has no shooting talent at all. He overshot the ball so hard it was a miracle the ball clanked off the backboard and into the basket. You can tell by his celebration that it was pure luck and had nothing to do with actually being a clutch player with heightened focus.

[Pointguard]

Is it really ?

I remember that other one. It was against Milwaukee in 11/12, on the step back. This was one was a lot tougher, especially considering the context.
Bucks was one. Warriors earlier this year. Knicks close to twice. Lakers on Christmas day off of the top of my head.

[Legends66NBA7]

Bucks was one. Warriors earlier this year. Knicks close to twice. Lakers on Christmas day off of the top of my head.

Damn, I forgot the Warriors and Lakers game.

Lakers game one was my favourite at the time.

[DMAVS41]

BS%

You need a different topic dude. Jordan was by far the best clutch player I ever seen. He makes Dirk look like a little kid. And neither one is killing it in TS %. Nor would I want the top five career TS% Artis Gilmore, Tyson Chandler, Cedri Maxwell, James Donalson or Adrian Dantley being my clutch model. Sorry. Its just you bringing up irrelevant nonsense again.


Haha.

The whole point of offense is to score and score efficiently. BS%?

It's literally the point of the game.

And Rose, so far, is dreadful as a superstar in the playoffs scoring wise. Like...you just don't get how bad it is when you factor in his retarded turnovers as well.

[Pointguard]

Haha.

The whole point of offense is to score and score efficiently. BS%?

It's literally the point of the game.

And Rose, so far, is dreadful as a superstar in the playoffs scoring wise. Like...you just don't get how bad it is when you factor in his retarded turnovers as well.
The topic is clutch scoring. You have severe problems staying on topic so I won't go there. Surely you understand this?

[dontgetchoked]

In that game he made a clutch play and some not so clutch plays. So often the clutch or choker thing is just random luck. IIRC his 4th quarters in his MVP season playoffs were abysmal. We all remember the last thing he did but if Cleveland made a couple of their misses end of game field goal misses or missed free throw would have been what posters were talking about, which would be just as stupid.

:biggums:

obviously you don't remember anything.

[DMAVS41]

The topic is clutch scoring. You have severe problems staying on topic so I won't go there. Surely you understand this?

That was in response to your nonsense talking about how those two series in 11 were of a note when you were talking with Navy.

They weren't. Rose has done absolutely nothing of note yet in the playoffs.

He's a sub 50% TS offensive player that crumbled under the only real playoff pressure he's ever faced.

I already answered the clutch stuff...if you could read you would have seen me say;

Rose is clearly an above average player overall and I'd say he's above average in crunch time as well, but for a superstar? He's below average overall and he's about average in crunch time.

Which is just the truth. For a superstar...Rose has done nothing in the clutch in his career to date to separate himself from what you would expect out of your average superstar.

Do you really dispute this? Really?

[Optimus Prime]

As awesome a shot as it was, banking in a contested 3 is not clutch, it is luck. :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

PG.

You call everyone a hater that doesn't declare Rose an all time great force or whatever crap you are calling him daily here.

You call me a hater when I tell you he was top 7 in the league...like it's an insult to consider him one of the 7 or 8 best players in the league with an absurdly high ceiling.

You tell us to ignore scoring efficiency when evaluating a shoot first, shoot a lot...guard that turns it over quite a bit and doesn't make a huge impact defensively (at least in the past...I gladly give him credit for playing great defense in these playoffs when he has his legs)...

So do you think it might be you that is a bit biased?

Rose is a player that hasn't cracked 50%TS since 09. He crumbled in the only real playoff pressure he faced. He has a career 103 ortg and career 107 drtg in the playoffs.

He's a player that has had some really good clutch moments and a player that has failed miserably in clutch moments. Like most superstars do. It is not an insult to call him an average clutch player for a superstar. That is exactly what he's been to date.

Players actually have to do shit to be considered as great as you want Rose to be considered as. And those things aren't beating shitty East teams in the first and 2nd round while playing average for a superstar.

You want him to be considered great? Rose needs to play great and win...or play great and lose. Play great...it's simple, but really hard to consistently do in the playoffs for even a lot of superstars.

To date, Rose has been no exception to that list...some really great moments...and some really bad moments.

Let it play out before you go nuts on here about him.

[gilalizard]

It honestly looked like a lucky shot. But considering how blatantly the refs were trying to hand the game to LeRef and the Cavs, it was a karmically deserved lucky shot

[ImKobe]

As awesome a shot as it was, banking in a contested 3 is not clutch, it is luck. :facepalm

He shot over a big man and it was literally an inch away from being blocked. As lucky as that shot was, it takes a special player to get that shot off.

Most clutch shots are "lucky", because usually they are very low % shots unless the defense screws up and leaves the guy open. Being clutch to me is not being afraid of the moment, having the strength and will to put the team on your back time after time again, not hesitating when you can't get open or a decent look. Some have more luck with making their shots, others not so much.

Kobe's clutch numbers are average overall, but he's taken the highest volume of those shots and he also has the most winners to his name with some being unbeliveably tough.

[Pointguard]

PG.

You call everyone a hater that doesn't declare Rose an all time great force or whatever crap you are calling him daily here.
Navy, used your irrational hater logic: Things only count for one out of the six series he was in. You think that's rational? It the hater box that you can't get out of, and he has joined you. Its pretty simple.


You call me a hater when I tell you he was top 7 in the league...like it's an insult to consider him one of the 7 or 8 best players in the league with an absurdly high ceiling.
I called you a hater when you try to join every Rose thread to denigrate him. And you do so with obsession for four years now. You behavior is hard to characterize any other way. Do you think somebody rivals you in your hate on these boards??? Nope, not even the Wilt haters are as persistent as you and for such a long time. They tire out, but not you.


You tell us to ignore scoring efficiency when evaluating a shoot first, shoot a lot...guard that turns it over quite a bit and doesn't make a huge impact defensively (at least in the past...I gladly give him credit for playing great defense in these playoffs when he has his legs)...

Defensively, have you ever seen a player hold a healthy Dwade better than Rose? Have you see a player hold Kyrie, Nash or a hot Curry better than D Rose? After awhile you figure you get it. He can really lock in.


So do you think it might be you that is a bit biased?

Rose is a player that hasn't cracked 50%TS since 09. He crumbled in the only real playoff pressure he faced. He has a career 103 ortg and career 107 drtg in the playoffs.
He was the best player on his team in all the playoff games he's played - even as a rookie. He wins games on his back. Always has.



He's a player that has had some really good clutch moments and a player that has failed miserably in clutch moments. Like most superstars do. It is not an insult to call him an average clutch player for a superstar. That is exactly what he's been to date.
You would be a lot better if you just said to yourself that you are an obsessed hater. Then the imbalance will become more apparent. Treat it like its some form of addiction.


You want him to be considered great? Rose needs to play great and win...or play great and lose. Play great...it's simple, but really hard to consistently do in the playoffs for even a lot of superstars.
You don't hear me saying he's great. For his age he could be called that because he was ahead of the curve, and always was.


To date, Rose has been no exception to that list...some really great moments...and some really bad moments.

Let it play out before you go nuts on here about him.I already said everybody has those moments. I said this before you arrived. What I said was name me 5 guys playing right now that have a better resume before their 23rd birthday. Name me 10 since Jordan like that. If you are top ten anything you are elite.

[DMAVS41]

PG

I like Rose actually and would much rather see them in the finals than Lebron or the Hawks...

And I completely agree that for his age Rose did incredible things as I have said before.

We actually aren't nearly as far off here as you always make it out... Because you tend to not actually hear people out.

Here are two areas of disagreement:

1. Rose's age does not make him better than he actually was/is. It makes some of the things he did more impressive, but you don't gain an advantage on the court because you are 21 or 27. It just makes things more impressive. You seem to factor in age like it makes a player better in reality. It simply does not... I have told you this time and time again... And you seem unable to grasp it. When we are arguing Dirk vs Rose in 11... All that matters is who the better basketball player was...age is not relevant. Do you understand this? Because I think you are having a completely different debate than most of us are.

2. Rose was not winning series on his back only. For starters, Rose hasn't won enough in the playoffs to even make that claim, but let's not act like its some amazing feat the 11 Bulls win two series. They were expected to and their opponents sucked. And if you think Rose is out there by himself now... You have lost your mind.

Of course Rose has been the best player in the playoffs on his teams. That is what superstars are! It's just that other superstars have done it a lot longer and played better and more consistently than Rose had to date.

Anyway. I hope you guys win and make the finals. And I can assure you that if Rose plays great I'll be there giving him his due... Just like when I argued he deserved MVP.

But please let it play out before you crown this kid... And please stop telling people to ignore the scoring efficiency of a scoring guard that dominates the ball. It matters and it matters a lot. Of course not the only thing, but it's about the furthest thing from BS there is.

Lastly, it's not hating to say sub 50% TS is awful offensively out of s superstar. It is just a fact. It's not hating to call Rose below average for a superstar in the playoffs. Those are basically just facts.

[nathanjizzle]

PG

I like Rose actually and would much rather see them in the finals than Lebron or the Hawks...

And I completely agree that for his age Rose did incredible things as I have said before.

We actually aren't nearly as far off here as you always make it out... Because you tend to not actually hear people out.

Here are two areas of disagreement:

1. Rose's age does not make him better than he actually was/is. It makes some of the things he did more impressive, but you don't gain an advantage on the court because you are 21 or 27. It just makes things more impressive. You seem to factor in age like it makes a player better in reality. It simply does not... I have told you this time and time again... And you seem unable to grasp it. When we are arguing Dirk vs Rose in 11... All that matters is who the better basketball player was...age is not relevant. Do you understand this? Because I think you are having a completely different debate than most of us are.

2. Rose was not winning series on his back only. For starters, Rose hasn't won enough in the playoffs to even make that claim, but let's not act like its some amazing feat the 11 Bulls win two series. They were expected to and their opponents sucked. And if you think Rose is out there by himself now... You have lost your mind.

Of course Rose has been the best player in the playoffs on his teams. That is what superstars are! It's just that other superstars have done it a lot longer and played better and more consistently than Rose had to date.

Anyway. I hope you guys win and make the finals. And I can assure you that if Rose plays great I'll be there giving him his due... Just like when I argued he deserved MVP.

But please let it play out before you crown this kid... And please stop telling people to ignore the scoring efficiency of a scoring guard that dominates the ball. It matters and it matters a lot. Of course not the only thing, but it's about the furthest thing from BS there is.

Lastly, it's not hating to say sub 50% TS is awful offensively out of s superstar. It is just a fact. It's not hating to call Rose below average for a superstar in the playoffs. Those are basically just facts.

you have a really bad assumption of rose as a player. you even said he is the same as monta ellis. youre just wrong dude. Its fine to have your own assumptions, but to go in every rose thread and try to detract from him is just wrong and ignorant on your part and to tell everyone else rose isnt as good as we think he is is just arrogant and ignorance.

also, most of your arguments are just semantics.

[nathanjizzle]

Nobody cares about beating shitty East teams in the first 2 rounds. It's not noteworthy at all.

you are an absolute hypocrite. you try to detract from rose by saying the bulls are "a really ****ing good team" without him because they won 45 games in the east. but i thought the east is so shitty that going to the ecf isnt note worthy at all, but barely breaking .500 in the east means "your a really good ****ing team"??? :facepalm How can you actually take yourself as objective when you say something so stupid as "making the ECF isnt noteworthy at all". But in the past you have bragged so hard about how the bulls barely won the first round without him. and not noting that the bulls have lost twice in the first round without him in such a horrible EC that you make it out to be. perhaps you do have an agenda and reach alittle when trying to detract from rose, right? thats why you are always pursuing it in rose threads.

you're just retarded, end of story.

[DMAVS41]

you are an absolute hypocrite. you try to detract from rose by saying the bulls are "a really ****ing good team" without him because they won 45 games in the east. but i thought the east is so shitty that going to the ecf isnt note worthy at all, but barely breaking .500 in the east means "your a really good ****ing team"??? :facepalm How can you actually take yourself as objective when you say something so stupid as "making the ECF isnt noteworthy at all". But in the past you have bragged so hard about how the bulls barely won the first round without him. and not noting that the bulls have lost twice in the first round without him in such a horrible EC that you make it out to be. perhaps you do have an agenda and reach alittle when trying to detract from rose, right? thats why you are always pursuing it in rose threads.

you're just retarded, end of story.


Think what you want. Nobody cares other than Bulls fans. The East is and has been a complete joke for a long time now.

The... He made a certain round of the playoffs argument... Is incredibly stupid.

No surprise you are making it.

Perhaps you have an agenda...that is why you are always propping Rose.

[tpols]

D mavs you have to be stewing in jelly that Rose has been more clutch than Dirk in this year's playoffs.:D

[Smoke117]

That was in response to your nonsense talking about how those two series in 11 were of a note when you were talking with Navy.

They weren't. Rose has done absolutely nothing of note yet in the playoffs.

He's a sub 50% TS offensive player that crumbled under the only real playoff pressure he's ever faced.

I already answered the clutch stuff...if you could read you would have seen me say;

Rose is clearly an above average player overall and I'd say he's above average in crunch time as well, but for a superstar? He's below average overall and he's about average in crunch time.

Which is just the truth. For a superstar...Rose has done nothing in the clutch in his career to date to separate himself from what you would expect out of your average superstar.

Do you really dispute this? Really?

Well there's your problem...Rose isn't a superstar. Never was.

[Optimus Prime]

D mavs you have to be stewing in jelly that Rose has been more clutch than Dirk in this year's playoffs.:D

:kobe:

You can count Rose's "clutch" moments on one hand.

Dirk has made a career out of being clutch.

Dirk is also, like you know, way older than Rose too.

:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

D mavs you have to be stewing in jelly that Rose has been more clutch than Dirk in this year's playoffs.:D

What?

I don't care or root against Rose. He is what he is and does what he does. Couldn't care less about a old Dirk vs current Rose debates.

I do, however, find it odd that Rose is held to such low standards for a supposed superstar.

[tpols]

What?

I don't care or root against Rose. He is what he is and does what he does. Couldn't care less about a old Dirk vs current Rose debates.

I do, however, find it odd that Rose is held to such low standards for a supposed superstar.
Cmon.... you care. :coleman:

[Milbuck]

I don't care or root against Rose.
:lol

[DMAVS41]

Cmon.... you care. :coleman:

Haha. I think you pro Rose guys care.... Like if something happens now it changes the past. Which was the debate...

To me... He looks like the same guy. A horribly inefficient guard that happens to be a really good player.

And really? Not even sure about your claim.

Rose is shooting 35% in the 4th qtrs in the playoffs so far. He's at 42.6% TS in the 4th qtrs. I think his crunch time stats are similar, but I'm too lazy to look them up. Like I said above, his defense late in games has been really good, but if this is about clutch offense...nah, nothing of note, as usual, there.

[DMAVS41]

:lol

I don't. I did in 11 when we had these debates. Now it's liking kicking a man when he's down.

These debates were about his play in 11... If he plays great I'll gladly give him his credit.

Maybe my standards are a bit higher than most... 45% TS in this series doesn't do much for me.

[Pointguard]

PG

I like Rose actually and would much rather see them in the finals than Lebron or the Hawks...
You are in 135 threads filled with wanton craziness against Rose. You sound certified nuts saying that you like him. And in the majority of those threads you come in like a real mad man.




1. Rose's age does not make him better than he actually was/is. It makes some of the things he did more impressive, but you don't gain an advantage on the court because you are 21 or 27. It just makes things more impressive. You seem to factor in age like it makes a player better in reality. It simply does not... Sometimes I qualify it, sometimes I don't. I have to qualify it because you keep comparing him to Dirk's 15 year career. That doesn't make sense at all. Could you imagine if we cut off Dirks career at his prime at 30 years old? Or his MVP season at what 28 years old?


[quote]
All that matters is who the better basketball player was...age is not relevant. Do you understand this? Because I think you are having a completely different debate than most of us are.
I only have this debate with you. I said Dirk had a better year. But age is a factor. The Rose standard if you ignore age is that Rose is suppose to be better than Dirk at 22 than Dirk at 32. That Rose can easily compensate for 10 more years of Dirk having teams built around him. The Rose standard, which it took you 2 years to understand that concept, is that he should just be more accomplished than Dirk is totally crazy. Nothing has changed.


2. Rose was not winning series on his back only. For starters, Rose hasn't won enough in the playoffs to even make that claim, but let's not act like its some amazing feat the 11 Bulls win two series. They were expected to and their opponents sucked. And if you think Rose is out there by himself now... You have lost your mind.
Opponents can suck, like GS in '07, and still beat a superior team. Right, or did I dream that up? Wasn't Dallas supposed to beat them, heck sweep them??? Amazingly Dirk wasn't even the best player when GS originally thought they had no one to guard him. Now against superb defensive teams as both Atlanta and Indiana were, you are likely to miss shots and have hardships. Against GS they rearranged who was the leader of the Mavs were and who the best player was on the Mavs (the MVP) and they sucked bad really bad on defense - allowed the most points in the league that year. And the Mav's were a veteran team - not a brand new team, young team, that went thru tons of changes like the Bulls did. So don't tell me about who is supposed to win, hell, its hard enough to tell who is supposed to be the best player on certain teams.


Of course Rose has been the best player in the playoffs on his teams. That is what superstars are! Dirk was in his best year in his prime, and Josh Howard was the superstar.


It's just that other superstars have done it a lot longer and played better and more consistently than Rose had to date.
Yes, he's had injuries.


But please let it play out before you crown this kid... And please stop telling people to ignore the scoring efficiency of a scoring guard that dominates the ball. It matters and it matters a lot. Of course not the only thing, but it's about the furthest thing from BS there is.
It is BS%, it has little bearing on PG play. Its far down the line of priorities and duties. Sure it helps, but only an idiot continually harps on that for PG's. Aggression is far superior in a lot of situations. TS% means less to the PG than any other position. And there is no correlation to TS% at the other positions either. The top ten GOAT are not killer TS% people. Jordan and Russell were great at many things but TS isn't one of them.

And sorry to tell you this but not everybody functions for high TS%. Especially if you have a team without shooters, creators or low post players. Use your head and you can figure out what I'm getting at. Its not a priority at that level. But I don't expect you to get it.


Lastly, it's not hating to say sub 50% TS is awful offensively out of s superstar. It is just a fact. It's not hating to call Rose below average for a superstar in the playoffs. Those are basically just facts. To a person who is too limited to understand how a player functions for his team. You think one size fits all because that's the level you are at. You just don't know. Tony Parker vs Steve Nash (TS%???). Westbrook vs CP3 (TS%???)

[Pointguard]

And really? Not even sure about your claim.

Rose is shooting 35% in the 4th qtrs in the playoffs so far. He's at 42.6% TS in the 4th qtrs. I think his crunch time stats are similar, but I'm too lazy to look them up. Like I said above, his defense late in games has been really good, but if this is about clutch offense...nah, nothing of note, as usual, there.
Obviously to the lost TS% is superior to winning. You will never get it.

[DMAVS41]

You are in 135 threads filled with wanton craziness against Rose. You sound certified nuts saying that you like him. And in the majority of those threads you come in like a real mad man.

Sometimes I qualify it, sometimes I don't. I have to qualify it because you keep comparing him to Dirk's 15 year career. That doesn't make sense at all. Could you imagine if we cut off Dirks career at his prime at 30 years old? Or his MVP season at what 28 years old? [quote]


I only have this debate with you. I said Dirk had a better year. But age is a factor. The Rose standard if you ignore age is that Rose is suppose to be better than Dirk at 22 than Dirk at 32. That Rose can easily compensate for 10 more years of Dirk having teams built around him. The Rose standard, which it took you 2 years to understand that concept, is that he should just be more accomplished than Dirk is totally crazy. Nothing has changed.

Opponents can suck, like GS in '07, and still beat a superior team. Right, or did I dream that up? Wasn't Dallas supposed to beat them, heck sweep them??? Amazingly Dirk wasn't even the best player when GS originally thought they had no one to guard him. Now against superb defensive teams as both Atlanta and Indiana were, you are likely to miss shots and have hardships. Against GS they rearranged who was the leader of the Mavs were and who the best player was on the Mavs (the MVP) and they sucked bad really bad on defense - allowed the most points in the league that year. And the Mav's were a veteran team - not a brand new team, young team, that went thru tons of changes like the Bulls did. So don't tell me about who is supposed to win, hell, its hard enough to tell who is supposed to be the best player on certain teams.
Dirk was in his best year in his prime, and Josh Howard was the superstar.


Yes, he's had injuries.

It is BS%, it has little bearing on PG play. Its far down the line of priorities and duties. Sure it helps, but only an idiot continually harps on that for PG's. Aggression is far superior in a lot of situations. TS% means less to the PG than any other position. And there is no correlation to TS% at the other positions either. The top ten GOAT are not killer TS% people. Jordan and Russell were great at many things but TS isn't one of them.

And sorry to tell you this but not everybody functions for high TS%. Especially if you have a team without shooters, creators or low post players. Use your head and you can figure out what I'm getting at. Its not a priority at that level. But I don't expect you to get it.
To a person who is too limited to understand how a player functions for his team. You think one size fits all because that's the level you are at. You just don't know. Tony Parker vs Steve Nash (TS%???). Westbrook vs CP3 (TS%???)


So much ****ing nonsense.

There is no such thing as a Rose Standard...what?

Rose should be graded like every other player. And please stop bringing up Dirk. Why? This has nothing to do with that...and certainly has nothing to do with Dirk in 07. Our initial debate was about Dirk vs Rose in 11. I won...just take the loss. As you admitted...Dirk was better.

I never was arguing or grading on a curve for Rose's age...and I repeatedly told you that. As I repeatedly told you that Rose had an absurdly high ceiling if he could develop his game in terms of decision making, handling pressure, and fixing his shot.

Unfortunately he's been robbed of many years of his career.



But...I don't know what you expect people to say. You focus on only the win when the Bulls win, but never look at how Rose plays. When they lose...it's always the teams fault.

Doesn't work that way in reality. Playing like shit is playing like shit. And playing great is playing great. Often times the outcome of games is beyond the control of 1 player.

You act like I'd be hard on Rose in 11 in the ECF if he had played great and lost. It was about how he played.

And you can keep repeating it all you want. Scoring efficiency and offensive rating are paramount to scoring guards like Rose. If Rose didn't play in a joke conference and didn't have loaded teams cleaning up his mistakes all the time...you'd realize this.

You think sub 50% TS and 35% shooting in the 4th qtrs is getting it done against 3 straight rounds of West teams? Sorry...it just isn't...

Go back to actually believing Josh Howard was the best player on the Mavs in 07. For someone that wants to talk about context and attention a lot...you sure are blind. Luol Deng has a better case over Rose in the ECF in 11 than Howard has over Dirk in 07...

And if it's just about winning. Rose has beaten exactly 1 team over .500 in the playoffs for his career. A shitty Hawks team that couldn't crack 45 wins in a weak conference. That's it...that's his claim to fame in the playoffs for his career. Beating the Hawks in 11...

Now he's just a part of a team. He's not the clear cut best player anymore (Deng was better in the 11 ECF on your standards anyway)...Butler is probably their best player now.

[DMAVS41]

Obviously to the lost TS% is superior to winning. You will never get it.

It's what leads to winning. You will never get it. Why do you think Rose lost in 11? It's because he shot 44% TS. Do you realize the Bulls might have swept the Heat if he shot 60% TS?

Like...it really could not be more important for a scoring guard to score efficiently.

It's hardly the only thing that matters...and I've made that clear, but it's ****ing huge.

And please stop backdoor comparing Rose to the likes of MJ/Russell. Rose doesn't make the off ball impact on the game those guys did. And doesn't make close to the on ball impact of MJ. Jesus man...

[DMAVS41]

Jordan wasn't close to winning anything in the playoffs but you knew he was clutch. Name me the guy who at 22 years of age that didn't have bad moments, outside of Jordan on a larger scale? Most guys it doesn't come together til they are 27 years old. So one bad series out of five isn't enough to make Rose average at all. That Bulls team could not break a trap - nobody is going to look good in that situation.

Jesus...I didn't even see this.

You want us to ignore that "one bad series" when it's literally the only meaningful series Rose has played to date as a leader of a team? What?

And to make it worse...you want the 07 Warriors series to define Dirk when we debate this shit...What?

This is what you can't get around. Nobody cares about winning two rounds in the East with a loaded team. They beat a 37 win shitty Pacers team and a subpar Hawks team that wouldn't have even sniffed the playoffs in the West.

Do you not understand why nobody thinks much of that? Not only that, but Rose was doing his standard crappy shooting in the playoffs in those rounds. Shooting 41% from the field with a 52.7% TS scoring efficiency. That is just normal for star players playing crappy teams.

Then he was beyond deplorable in the ECF. I don't think you know what that word means if you are arguing with Navy about it. He was worse than that...and as unclutch as possible. Multiple choked 4th qtrs and blown ft's and horrid turnovers.

So...again...Rose has beaten a total of 0 teams in the playoffs that would even make the playoffs in the West. The Pacers, Hawks, and Bucks would have all missed the playoffs in the West those years. Shit...even this Cavs team would have been a 7th or 8th seed in the West this year...and that is before they lost Love and JR...and now have a banged up Shump and Kyrie...and Rose isn't even the best player on the Bulls.

Again...he's done nothing of note in the playoffs to date. Only Rose/Bulls fans think he has.

This is why the NBA has to fix, among other reasons, this playoff system. It's just getting out of control watching these scrub East teams play each other and hearing about how players/teams made the 2nd round or conference finals. ****...who cares when it's the East. You can go to the conference finals in the East some years by beating two teams that wouldn't even make the playoffs in the West.

[Pointguard]

Rose should be graded like every other player. And please stop bringing up Dirk. Why? This has nothing to do with that...and certainly has nothing to do with Dirk in 07. Our initial debate was about Dirk vs Rose in 11. I won...just take the loss. As you admitted...Dirk was better.

I bring up Dirk because its obvious, to myself and a couple of others, that you don't watch games. And if you do, you aren't comfortable enough to trust what you see. So you just look at TS%. With some luck you might have seen some Dirk games. So I bring him up. You keep bringing up Rose TS% and I can at least show you some flaws in TS% with Dirk. Rose has never played with players that were better than him. Terry has better TS% than Dirk in the finals. Better FG% Better 3pt percentage. First finals they scored 22ppg each with Dirk almost at 23ppg.


But...I don't know what you expect people to say. You focus on only the win when the Bulls win, but never look at how Rose plays. When they lose...it's always the teams fault.
Even this year. The team goes as Rose goes. Rose is not 85% yet. Its obvious. He can't make his floaters yet, which might be his best shot. He has enough critic's here that I don't have to over criticize him here. I'll let you guys do that. When it goes crazy I do jump in.


You act like I'd be hard on Rose in 11 in the ECF if he had played great and lost. It was about how he played.
Like I've said hundreds of times, if your team can't break a trap they don't have to concern themselves with the other four players. None of which stepped up. Nobody is going to win in that situation. Period. They could throw the kitchen sink at him with impunity. What do you not understand, guy. That's why I asked you who stepped up.


And you can keep repeating it all you want. Scoring efficiency and offensive rating are paramount to scoring guards like Rose.
Paramount is aggression. He's not going to be efficient without spacing and guys stepping up. You either have not seen the games or are just too hard headed. I am sure its both. THIS IS THE "ROSE STANDARD" that you have created. Rose is supposed to be beyond his team not being able to break a trap. He is supposed to be beyond having his players stepping up. Rose is suppose to have great TS% regardless of situation even though his role is obvious as day aggression above efficiency.


If Rose didn't play in a joke conference and didn't have loaded teams cleaning up his mistakes all the time...you'd realize this.
The Rose Standard. They couldn't break a trap. Nobody stepped up. The second and third best players were benched in the 4th quarters twice each. That's not cleaning up his mistakes. Rose had way more responsibility than any other superstar. You have no concept of how teams function at all.


You think sub 50% TS and 35% shooting in the 4th qtrs is getting it done against 3 straight rounds of West teams? Sorry...it just isn't...
:lol


Go back to actually believing Josh Howard was the best player on the Mavs in 07. For someone that wants to talk about context and attention a lot...you sure are blind. Luol Deng has a better case over Rose in the ECF in 11 than Howard has over Dirk in 07...
What did Dirk do better than Howard? 1 more rebound per game but that's it. Every other metric Josh was better. He was aggressive, He was a better defender, his efficiency was much better, his shooting from long range was better, he set a better aggressive tone for the team, his competitiveness was much better. Josh stepped up when Dirk stepped down. Deng didn't step up so he has no case whatsoever. The stage was set for him to do that. He didn't take one game off of Rose's back. That doesn't work.


Now he's just a part of a team. He's not the clear cut best player anymore (Deng was better in the 11 ECF on your standards anyway)...Butler is probably their best player now. This team goes as Rose does as well. Butler does step up big time. But Rose has only played like 8 games and is still getting his legs at this time. He still can't shoot his favorite shot.

[Pointguard]

Jesus...I didn't even see this.

You want us to ignore that "one bad series" when it's literally the only meaningful series Rose has played to date as a leader of a team? What?

You don't watch games. Nor do you watch what you say. He won two series before that. He lead his team in the regular season to the best record. He was the leader of his college team. He was the leader of the team the year before that. And was co-leader the year before that. That's a whole lot to miss. But that's what a hater do.



This is what you can't get around. Nobody cares about winning two rounds in the East with a loaded team. They beat a 37 win shitty Pacers team and a subpar Hawks team that wouldn't have even sniffed the playoffs in the West.

Do you not understand why nobody thinks much of that? Not only that, but Rose was doing his standard crappy shooting in the playoffs in those rounds. Shooting 41% from the field with a 52.7% TS scoring efficiency. That is just normal for star players playing crappy teams.

Then he was beyond deplorable in the ECF. I don't think you know what that word means if you are arguing with Navy about it. He was worse than that...and as unclutch as possible. Multiple choked 4th qtrs and blown ft's and horrid turnovers.

So...again...Rose has beaten a total of 0 teams in the playoffs that would even make the playoffs in the West. The Pacers, Hawks, and Bucks would have all missed the playoffs in the West those years. Shit...even this Cavs team would have been a 7th or 8th seed in the West this year...and that is before they lost Love and JR...and now have a banged up Shump and Kyrie...and Rose isn't even the best player on the Bulls.

Again...he's done nothing of note in the playoffs to date. Only Rose/Bulls fans think he has.

This is why the NBA has to fix, among other reasons, this playoff system. It's just getting out of control watching these scrub East teams play each other and hearing about how players/teams made the 2nd round or conference finals. ****...who cares when it's the East. You can go to the conference finals in the East some years by beating two teams that wouldn't even make the playoffs in the West.
See I tried to talk to you but you just keep repeating yourself. You are stuck in one place. I hate that some young guys come on using your arguments not realizing how limited you are. That you can't really advance your arguments. I don't know if you can go beyond TS%. A stat that has awkward skillless centers populating its top spots career wise. And much more useless in evaluating PG's.

[TheMarkMadsen]

What?

I don't care or root against Rose.


:lol :lol

[dunksby]

He is clutch, remember he was high on all kinda clutch lists in his MVP days.

[Graviton]

I remember in 2012-13 even when constantly injured and missing so many games he had 4-5 game winning/sealing buckets in the 4th. Clearly recall 1 vs Lakers over Gasol, a ridiculous floater vs Sixers, buzzer beater vs Bucks, and some others I probably forgot.

[DMAVS41]

PG.

I'm sorry you don't like reality.

Reality is that Rose has been a really poor playoff performer to date.

We can talk about Rose with no stats and it will be the same story. He's an inefficient ball dominant guard that creates well, but isn't a great passer. He settles for way too many 3's and clearly lets pressure get to him late in games at the line as he has a history of choking at the line. He turns it over too much as he gets out of control often. His defense and rebounding is fine, but nothing special...especially team defense. He's pretty much the typical on ball player. He's good when he has the ball on offense and he's pretty good guarding the ball on defense. If he's not doing one of those two things...he's not doing much. He's making his 3's in the playoffs now, but still settles way too much for being not a very consistent shooter.

He's a good scoring guard. He doesn't control games well at the point...and he doesn't find his teammates in the flow of the game as often as great point guards generally do.


And whether you like it or not. Navy is right. Beating 3 teams in the playoffs (2 of them as the best player) that wouldn't sniff the playoffs in the West isn't of note. It means nothing when we are talking about Rose at the level you want to talk about him at.

Now he's more or less playing a role on a loaded team. My opinion is that Butler is their best player. He plays way better defense than Rose he's just a consistently better shooter and also an under-rated playmaker as well imo. He can play off or on the ball extremely well and he's also a very versatile player on both ends.

When you say they are going to go as far as Rose takes them. Sure, that is because he is playing a large role on the team. He's jacking up 19 shots a game and shooting poorly as usual. Of course that is going to have a large impact. You can't escape that if you are the Bulls. If Rose takes nearly 20 shots a game...and shoots poorly and turns it over a lot...the Bulls might win the East because it's a joke, but they won't win it all with him shooting like that.

I'd like to see Rose cut down on the 3's and take around 15 shots per game and focus on creating a bit more. Focus on setting other guys up rather than settling for those long jumpers that are just poor shots from all sides...poor because Rose isn't a very good shooter...and poor because they are low EV shots to begin with for virtually all players.


As for the Dirk stuff. You are so ignorant there it's laughable. If you actually think Terry/Howard were better players than Dirk...just leave ISH and stop this. Even you can't be that dumb. Playing better in a certain role is different than being a better player.

Right now, Rose is playing with a better player. Hate to break that to you. Butler is a better player than Rose right now. Not only is he playing better, but he's a better player overall.

Rose simply hasn't proven enough in his career yet to be lauded the way you want him to be. It would be like people crowning Dirk back in 03 before he really did a ton as better than players that not only proved way more and did way more, but actually consistently performed. It would be retarded.

You always talk about age and everything, but I hope you realize that Dirk in 03 was only 24 years old. He was a monster by then. Hell, he was a monster in 02 as well at age 23. When he dominated KG and the Wolves and was clearly an elite player. He averaged 28/13/2 in the playoffs. But in 03 he was a 25/13/3 force that could dominate the game already. He had two monster game 7's in the playoffs (31/11 against the Blazers and 30/19 against the Kings)...

Before he got hurt in the WCF...he led the Mavs to a game 1 road win against the Spurs. He just had 38/15 against peak Duncan and the Spurs.

Rose hasn't done shit like that even to this day. That is the difference. Other players earn their rep by playing great and beating quality teams in the playoffs. Not only has Rose failed to play great so far, he hasn't beaten a quality team yet. The Cavs will be the first, and not only are the Cavs completely banged up, but Rose isn't even the clear best player anymore. I call the Cavs great and I really shouldn't. They would have been the 7th seed in the West and without Love they'd be 50/50 to even make the playoffs in the West. That gap in competition quality actually matters here. We have to actually talk about the teams these players/teams are playing against.

Rose lost to the Celtics in 09 and Cavs in 10. Nothing wrong with that obviously...and Rose actually played pretty damn good in both series. I liked him as a player back then a lot more honestly because he didn't take so many bad 3's.

Then he beat a Granger led 37 win Pacers team and a Joe Johnson led 44 win Hawks team. Neither of those teams would have come close to making the playoffs in the West.

Then he got trounced by the Heat while shooting/scoring horribly and choking repeatedly late in close games.

That's it as the best player in the playoffs for his career. That is his resume to date in the playoffs.

Oh, and he beat the current Bucks. A team that would have finished somewhere between 10 and 12 in the West. Rose shot poorly as usual...

The truth is that Rose hasn't even beaten a team in the playoffs as good as the ****ing 02 Wolves.

[DMAVS41]

And I'm really confused as to where this clutch thing even started. Well, I know it started in meaningless regular season games...but:

In 11 playoffs in crunch time.

Rose shot 41% from the field on 0% from 3. He turned it over as often as he made an assist with an exact 1 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. He had an offensive rating of 99.7 and shot 54% TS. Hardly bad or anything, but again...nothing special.

And those numbers are more of a product of the first two rounds. He was dreadful in the one series of note against a real team.


This year in the playoffs he's a 94 ortg and 36% TS. In the 4th qtrs so far this year he's shooting 43% TS and has an 88 ortg.

Yea...you actually have to play well late in games and in crunch time to be considered clutch.

Rose's defense late in games, like I have repeatedly said, has been clearly his best attribute...but we all know that isn't what has been talked about.

That's clutch? Why are the standards so low for Rose both in the past and present?

[VengefulAngel]

And I'm really confused as to where this clutch thing even started. Well, I know it started in meaningless regular season games...but:

In 11 playoffs in crunch time.

Rose shot 41% from the field on 0% from 3. He turned it over as often as he made an assist with an exact 1 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. He had an offensive rating of 99.7 and shot 54% TS. Hardly bad or anything, but again...nothing special.

And those numbers are more of a product of the first two rounds. He was dreadful in the one series of note against a real team.


This year in the playoffs he's a 94 ortg and 36% TS. In the 4th qtrs so far this year he's shooting 43% TS and has an 88 ortg.

Yea...you actually have to play well late in games and in crunch time to be considered clutch.

Rose's defense late in games, like I have repeatedly said, has been clearly his best attribute...but we all know that isn't what has been talked about.

That's clutch? Why are the standards so low for Rose both in the past and present?

a few questions:

1) Where did you get these figures?
2) What do you define as crunch time?
3) What metric are you using to assess his defense?

[DMAVS41]

a few questions:

1) Where did you get these figures?
2) What do you define as crunch time?
3) What metric are you using to assess his defense?

1) NBA.com
2) Generally 5 minutes left (plus/minus 5 points)...4th qtrs in the playoffs as well I think should be mentioned

3) Watching the games and looking at drtg. I personally have seen Rose play excellent defense late in games this playoffs. When I go to check the numbers I see this:

Rose overall drtg in the playoffs 101 (which is excellent)...but:

Rose drtg in 4th qtrs 83.3 (absolutely great)
Rose drtg in crunch time (92.3)

So when I watch something happen and then the numbers back it up...I'm pretty confident I can say that Rose is playing great defense overall and even better late in games this playoffs.


Here are his clutch splits for 11 in both regular season and playoffs per 100 possessions if you are interested:

Playoffs:

48/3/6 on 41/0/87 shooting....with 6 turnovers...54% TS

Regular:

49/10/11 on 40/20/90 shooting....with 7 turnovers....53% TS



Here is this playoffs:

27/8/14 on 10/25/78 shooting....with 5 turnovers...36% TS

This year is kind of pointless so far as the sample is too small to really even talk about.

[Pointguard]

PG.

I'm sorry you don't like reality.
You don't watch games. Stats are a two dimensional world. You live in a three dimensional world. Your perception is horrible to begin with but when its coupled with a world that lacks a third dimension its really bad. Conceptually you can't grasp things. Then, because of hate, you cripple yourself further. By the time we get to reality Stevie Wonder is much better off than you are.


And whether you like it or not. Navy is right. Beating 3 teams in the playoffs (2 of them as the best player) that wouldn't sniff the playoffs in the West isn't of note. It means nothing when we are talking about Rose at the level you want to talk about him at.
Navy has left the madness to you. He has to feel bad that he took your line and ran with it. Unlike you, whom I embarrass frequently, he has some comprehension skills and knows that repeating the same lame argument in at least 135 different threads isn't a way to win converts.


Now he's more or less playing a role on a loaded team. My opinion is that Butler is their best player. He plays way better defense than Rose he's just a consistently better shooter and also an under-rated playmaker as well imo. He can play off or on the ball extremely well and he's also a very versatile player on both ends.
You imitating a guy who watches games is hilarious. Butler has said his success is owed to Rose on and off the court. Butler got game. And if you watch the games every win so far has been on Rose's play - usually after half time.


When you say they are going to go as far as Rose takes them. Sure, that is because he is playing a large role on the team. He's jacking up 19 shots a game and shooting poorly as usual. Of course that is going to have a large impact. You can't escape that if you are the Bulls. If Rose takes nearly 20 shots a game...and shoots poorly and turns it over a lot...the Bulls might win the East because it's a joke, but they won't win it all with him shooting like that.
Could you imagine if Dirk couldn't shoot his favorite shot? He would have no value whatsoever would he??? Yet Rose can still dominate playoff games without his. That's the hardest reality you can't understand. Sure the metrics are going say look his shot is off, but the reality is the game is predicated on his play.


I'd like to see Rose cut down on the 3's and take around 15 shots per game and focus on creating a bit more.
That would be an improvement.


If you actually think Terry/Howard were better players than Dirk...just leave ISH and stop this. Even you can't be that dumb. Playing better in a certain role is different than being a better player.
For that to happen two things mus happen: The two dimensional leader has to step down. Which indeed happened. And the teams most versatile player has to step up and be more productive, inspirational and assume leadership. And guess what happened. I don't dig going this hard on Dirk, but your obsession means I have to. I wish Dirk fans would pull you aside and ask you to cool it. But seemingly that won't happen.


Right now, Rose is playing with a better player. Hate to break that to you. Butler is a better player than Rose right now. Not only is he playing better, but he's a better player overall.
Watch the games. Butler and Gasol together can't make up for Rose when he can't get his legs, so far in the playoffs. When Rose plays well, it affects the whole game. That's not hard to see at all.

[DMAVS41]

You don't watch games. Stats are a two dimensional world. You live in a three dimensional world. Your perception is horrible to begin with but when its coupled with a world that lacks a third dimension its really bad. Conceptually you can't grasp things. Then, because of hate, you cripple yourself further. By the time we get to reality Stevie Wonder is much better off than you are.

Navy has left the madness to you. He has to feel bad that he took your line and ran with it. Unlike you, whom I embarrass frequently, he has some comprehension skills and knows that repeating the same lame argument in at least 135 different threads isn't a way to win converts.

You imitating a guy who watches games is hilarious. Butler has said his success is owed to Rose on and off the court. Butler got game. And if you watch the games every win so far has been on Rose's play - usually after half time.

Could you imagine if Dirk couldn't shoot his favorite shot? He would have no value whatsoever would he??? Yet Rose can still dominate playoff games without his. That's the hardest reality you can't understand. Sure the metrics are going say look his shot is off, but the reality is the game is predicated on his play.

That would be an improvement.

For that to happen two things mus happen: The two dimensional leader has to step down. Which indeed happened. And the teams most versatile player has to step up and be more productive, inspirational and assume leadership. And guess what happened. I don't dig going this hard on Dirk, but your obsession means I have to. I wish Dirk fans would pull you aside and ask you to cool it. But seemingly that won't happen.

Watch the games. Butler and Gasol together can't make up for Rose when he can't get his legs, so far in the playoffs. When Rose plays well, it affects the whole game. That's not hard to see at all.


You realize you aren't saying anything...right?

Again I advise you to read the following:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/steve-nash-george-karl-and-others-on-dirk-nowitzki-and-the-unguardable-play/

If you think Dirk can only impact the game by shooting with the ball. You are just so ignorant. Really just sad that you think you understand the game. Do you understand the all time elite level offensive impact Dirk had in his prime? Rose doesn't sniff it...not even remotely close in the playoffs.


As for the rest...just more nonsensical subjective BS that boils down to you thinking a player that takes a lot of bad shots somehow is a good thing.

What makes Rose as good playoff performer? Please tell us. What has he done to date that puts him on the Dirk tier as a playoff performer?

And I totally agree with you that this team will go as far as Rose takes them. That is what happens when you take 20 or so shots a game. If that player is off and not playing well...it's really hard to overcome...especially when said player has virtually no impact off the ball offensively. We completely agree there, but that doesn't make him the best player. If just means that he's using up a lot of possessions and it really matters how well he plays. This is true for literally any player taking 20 shots a game in the playoffs unless they are also an elite defensive player and rebounder. Even then...taking 20 shots and using up that many possessions is going to be hard to overcome if that player is not scoring well or isn't surrounded by another elite force like Shaq or Duncan or someone like that...that gives a large margin of error.


Your response to everything is this:

"You don't watch the games"

But I do watch the games. I watch them and see the player I describe. And the evidence backs me up. Rose is a really good player that has some issues.

Why does all the evidence back me up concerning Dirk and Rose? If you know the game so well and you are correct...why is there so little that you can look to objectively to support your position?

Doesn't that give you pause? It certainly would give me pause if I was making an argument and virtually everything I was saying was contradicted by the evidence.

You know what will happen if Rose plays great and scores efficiently? The Bulls will win the title...or at least have a great shot at it. If you think he can continue to shoot this poorly while taking 20 shots a game and still win the title...just no. Well, they could get really lucky with other teams having injuries or something, but just not gonna win without absurd luck playing like that.

Like I said before...might win the East because it's such a joke...where the teams are just beyond bad, but wouldn't even get close to out of round 2 in the West playing like this. Probably don't get out of round 1 to be honest.

[Pointguard]

You realize you aren't saying anything...right?

Again I advise you to read the following:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/steve-nash-george-karl-and-others-on-dirk-nowitzki-and-the-unguardable-play/

Just show me the game where Dirk was off and kills the game. I think grantland tries too hard. This is obviously commissioned work. Just show me the game where Dirk was killing it and his shot was off. Simple enough. I showed here plenty of times that when Dirk is off the team still wins big games because Terry is on. They rarely win if Terry is off... even with Dirk on. Look at the finals that just happened. The team went as Terry went moreso than Dirk. Do you want me to show you that again. And I will do so with TS% too. I can do it with your value set.



And I totally agree with you that this team will go as far as Rose takes them. That is what happens when you take 20 or so shots a game. If that player is off and not playing well...it's really hard to overcome...especially when said player has virtually no impact off the ball offensively. We completely agree there, but that doesn't make him the best player. If just means that he's using up a lot of possessions and it really matters how well he plays. This is true for literally any player taking 20 shots a game in the playoffs unless they are also an elite defensive player and rebounder. Even then...taking 20 shots and using up that many possessions is going to be hard to overcome if that player is not scoring well or isn't surrounded by another elite force like Shaq or Duncan or someone like that...that gives a large margin of error.
If you understood the game you would know that three things happen whenever Rose breaks down defenses. 1. Their possessions increase. 2.It motivates Taj and Noah to get involved. 3. It wears the other team down. Three keys to how the Bulls won the most games that year and dominated the elite. Its a team that plays to its strength. That team didn't run a lot of offensive sets. That's what it was designed to do. But you have to understand basic concepts. This is why looking at TS% is a complete waiste if you don't have spacing, creators or consistent shooters.



Your response to everything is this:

"You don't watch the games"
Ok, I meant while using your brain.

[DMAVS41]

Just show me the game where Dirk was off and kills the game. I think grantland tries too hard. This is obviously commissioned work. Just show me the game where Dirk was killing it and his shot was off. Simple enough. I showed here plenty of times that when Dirk is off the team still wins big games because Terry is on. They rarely win if Terry is off... even with Dirk on. Look at the finals that just happened. The team went as Terry went moreso than Dirk. Do you want me to show you that again. And I will do so with TS% too. I can do it with your value set.


If you understood the game you would know that three things happen whenever Rose breaks down defenses. 1. Their possessions increase. 2.It motivates Taj and Noah to get involved. 3. It wears the other team down. Three keys to how the Bulls won the most games that year and dominated the elite. Its a team that plays to its strength. That team didn't run a lot of offensive sets. That's what it was designed to do. But you have to understand basic concepts. This is why looking at TS% is a complete waiste if you don't have spacing, creators or consistent shooters.


Ok, I meant while using your brain.


It's you that needs to use your brain. Why do you think Terry, Barea, Harris...pick your Mavs role player. Can get off like they do in playoff games? It's because of the principles in that Grantland article. To make it seem like Dirk has no impact on Terry going off is such a narrow view.

Sure. I think it was game 3 in 06 when Dirk shot like 3 of 13 or something but had like 17 rebounds and got to the line a lot and drew a foul with like 7 seconds left down 1...and made the game winning free throws against the Spurs.

Looking up the line now:

Yep...3 of 9 shooting...but had 15 boards and got to the line a ton. Made the game winning play. Huge playoff win with his shot not falling. There are many other games like this where Dirk was great on the defensive glass and made huge impacts without draining a lot of shots. It's obvious you didn't watch prime Dirk...he could get to the line very well and he was a great defensive rebounder. Combine that with his pick and pop game and post game that required frequent doubling...you get high impact whether he shoots 35% or 60%. Obviously it's better to make shots, but the impact is high regardless.

Not sure what you don't get on this. You are so biased that you think Grantland and George Karl and Nash are too biased to be taken seriously...like really? That is your argument?????



I know Rose breaking down the defense is a good thing. I've repeatedly given him credit for that. You realize I think Rose is really good...right? I just don't think he's nearly as good as you do. Or I should say...I didn't think he was nearly as good as you did. You think I'm basing it all of scoring efficiency? If that was all I cared about...I'd never rank Rose in the top 7 player in the league and wouldn't call him a star or superstar.

So again this is just a straw man argument.

And they beat some elite teams in the regular season. When they played an elite team in the playoffs...it was Rose and the Bulls that got dominated. It's very fishy how you want us to ignore the 5 most important games of the year against an elite team when talking about Rose in 11. Hmmm....

You act like I'm saying Rose is horrible. That is why it's you that is so biased...you hear anyone say something objectively critiquing Rose and you think it's hating.

[nathanjizzle]

Think what you want. Nobody cares other than Bulls fans. The East is and has been a complete joke for a long time now.

The... He made a certain round of the playoffs argument... Is incredibly stupid.

No surprise you are making it.

Perhaps you have an agenda...that is why you are always propping Rose.

more semantics? you are the one that made the point about the bulls being so good without rose by winning a first round without him. so what is your excuse?, please explain yourself how you belittle the east, but then prop up the bulls "as a really good ****ing team" for winning 45 games and having 2 first round exits in the EC? please do explain??? did you not say these things?

[DMAVS41]

more semantics? you are the one that made the point about the bulls being so good without rose by winning a first round without him. so what is your excuse?, please explain yourself how you belittle the east, but then prop up the bulls "as a really good ****ing team" for winning 45 games and having 2 first round exits in the EC? please do explain??? did you not say these things?

what?

the Bulls were good in 11. regardless of conference. it's the other teams they played that weren't good.

it's not a contradiction at all.

they beat two teams that wouldn't have made the playoffs in the West. that doesn't mean the Bulls weren't good. it means the two teams they beat weren't good.

do you really not follow that?

[nathanjizzle]

what?

the Bulls were good in 11. regardless of conference. it's the other teams they played that weren't good.

it's not a contradiction at all.

they beat two teams that wouldn't have made the playoffs in the West. that doesn't mean the Bulls weren't good. it means the two teams they beat weren't good.

do you really not follow that?
"they beat two teams that wouldn't have made the playoffs in the West"
the ****, is that your opinion that you are stating as fact?:roll:
like you always do.

im not even talking about 2011, are you really not following? im talking about 12-13-14 post seasons. you said the bulls were "really good" without rose for winning the first round in the east, also having 2 first round exits, but you constantly bash the east, and just said in this thread "making the ECF isnt noteworthy" so again, please explain???? how do you figure roses impact wasnt as great because the bulls won a 7 game series in the first round and had 2 first round exits without him, in such a horrendous conference?

[DMAVS41]

On a side note.

Have you noticed how Rose is playing today? He's been magnificent. He's got his finger on the pulse of this game and isn't settling for long jumpers and 3's so far.

He's not forcing the issue and he's made some great passes for wide open looks that his teammates have just missed. He's 9-13 from the field and with only 1 turnover.

He's playing just great.

If you guys think the Bulls would be close to up 6 with Rose going 3 of 14 with Rose forcing it too much and turning it over 4 times...I just don't have words for you.

This game is so much better than he's played the last few games.

If you can't see the difference...I give up.

[Pointguard]

You act like I'm saying Rose is horrible. That is why it's you that is so biased...you hear anyone say something objectively critiquing Rose and you think it's hating.
You come in 135 threads to bash Rose. Its not normal or you being objective. Its obsessive hating.

[DMAVS41]

You come in 135 threads to bash Rose. Its not normal or you being objective. Its obsessive hating.

And you're in every single one of them before I even look at them...spewing complete horseshit.

So what does that make you?

[nathanjizzle]

On a side note.

Have you noticed how Rose is playing today? He's been magnificent. He's got his finger on the pulse of this game and isn't settling for long jumpers and 3's so far.

He's not forcing the issue and he's made some great passes for wide open looks that his teammates have just missed. He's 9-13 from the field and with only 1 turnover.

He's playing just great.

If you guys think the Bulls would be close to up 6 with Rose going 3 of 14 with Rose forcing it too much and turning it over 4 times...I just don't have words for you.

This game is so much better than he's played the last few games.

If you can't see the difference...I give up.

shut up, we know rose is playing well, hes always had this kind of impact in the playoffs other than shooting bad agaist the heat.

[DMAVS41]

"they beat two teams that wouldn't have made the playoffs in the West"
the ****, is that your opinion that you are stating as fact?:roll:
like you always do.

im not even talking about 2011, are you really not following? im talking about 12-13-14 post seasons. you said the bulls were "really good" without rose for winning the first round in the east, also having 2 first round exits, but you constantly bash the east, and just said in this thread "making the ECF isnt noteworthy" so again, please explain???? how do you figure roses impact wasnt as great because the bulls won a 7 game series in the first round and had 2 first round exits without him, in such a horrendous conference?

it's a fact actually. both teams didn't have records that would qualify for a playoff spot in the West. Considering they played in the easier conference to get that record...there is no logical reason to think they win more games playing in the harder conference.

i said they were a really good supporting cast. you make it sound like i said they could win it all without rose.

and i never said Rose didn't have a big impact.

all you do is straw man all my arguments.

not sure why i respond to you. you pm'd me recently calling Dirk a career role player and not a winner. you mentioned that in a thread recently and got destroyed...:lol

[DMAVS41]

shut up, we know rose is playing well, hes always had this kind of impact in the playoffs other than shooting bad agaist the heat.

no he hasn't. he's a sub 50% TS player for his career to date in the playoffs. he does not always play like this and make this impact.

if he did...i'd be higher on him than you probably are.

what ****ing career have you watched?

[Pointguard]

And you're in every single one of them before I even look at them...spewing complete horseshit.

So what does that make you?

Dude nobody hates like you. Its an unhealthy characteristic. The Wilt haters were the only guys like you. And they have like two year life spans you are four years and counting. People here today have been all on you about it. But you have no ability to help yourself.

[DMAVS41]

Dude nobody hates like you. Its an unhealthy characteristic. The Wilt haters were the only guys like you. And they have like two year life spans you are four years and counting. People here today have been all on you about it. But you have no ability to help yourself.

Dude...nobody stans like you.

You accuse posters of being the same person (not true and laughable)...and think Grantland is too biased towards Dirk to be taken seriously.

:roll:

[Pointguard]

Dude...nobody stans like you.

You accuse posters of being the same person (not true and laughable)...and think Grantland is too biased towards Dirk to be taken seriously.

:roll:
:lol Being a fan is one thing. 98% of this board are fans. Its healthy to be that way. Now hating can mess up your health - never mind obsessive hating. And you should be old enough to know that.

[DMAVS41]

:lol Being a fan is one thing. 98% of this board are fans. Its healthy to be that way. Now hating can mess up your health - never mind obsessive hating. And you should be old enough to know that.


You are not a fan. You are irrational. You are a stan. That's unhealthy dude...and you should know that.

You over-rate Rose absurdly on here...

I just find this topic interesting....

Really can't wait to hear how scoring efficiency didn't matter today in the game.

Did Rose not turn the wheel enough or something?

And...you aren't a hater on Dirk? Some of the things you've said are just absurd. You've called Terry/Howard better players. You've called him a role player. Just absolutely hater material way worse than anything I've said about Rose...especially because...you know...what I say is actually accurate.

You've called Rose better than Dirk ever was. Again...irrational stanning. That isn't being a fan. Being a fan is being somewhat open to other views and and objective measures that conflict with a completely subjective outlook on a team or player. You don't do that.

I don't tell people to completely ignore Dirk's worst playoff series even though it was a complete anomaly for his career and there was off court shit going on as well. I say he deserves blame and criticism for it.

You want people to ignore Rose's biggest and worst playoff series of his career to date. You think someone is hating when they bring up that Rose hasn't beaten a quality team in the playoffs yet in his career. You think it's hating to say scoring efficiency of a scoring guard actually matters. You think it's hating to bring up what a joke the East has been. You think it's hating to bring up the elite defense/rebounding of the 11 Bulls. I'm sorry, but that isn't hating...it's just reality.

Normal people/fans don't crown players before they do shit when the games matter most. You do with Rose....and you freak out every time somebody rightfully points out that nothing of note has been to date in the postseason in Rose's career.

You also are incapable of now giving props to Dirk because of me. Which is just sad...and more evidence that you are actually the hater. I have no problem giving Rose credit. Thought he was pretty damn great today for the most part. Still hated him settling for a few long 2's and 3's I didn't think he needed, but he was super clutch again and he set up his teammates many times and they just missed the shots. I just can't see you saying that about Dirk or other players you are horribly biased against. Because even if Dirk played a great in the past...you would have some backwards way looking at it like he wasn't the engine of the team or something...even though elite offenses were run through Dirk for about 13 straight years without a legit 2nd star to take any burden and absolutely little to no help defensively at the center position until the 11 team.

So...you're in every thread with Rose. You are not a fan, but a stan. You hate on Dirk horribly and can't back it up. And you are so lost you think people have multiple accounts and Grantland, Nash, George Karl...and others can't be trusted.

Who is lost here again? Who needs help?

Oh...and I'm still waiting to hear how scoring efficiency didn't matter tonight? I thought Rose was great overall tonight, but at one point I think he was 9-13...then he missed 8 of his last 10 shots. You really think if he makes 3 more shots it doesn't impact the game?

I'd like to hear about this...because that must be your position if you say TS% and scoring efficiency doesn't matter much. Right?

You do realize that TS% is just a quick reference for how someone scores...right? That Rose's TS% would be better if he had made 3 more shots tonight. Are you saying that it wouldn't have mattered if Rose made 3 more shots in the 2nd half lull? If so...why? Please explain.

[SexSymbol]

Rose amazingly clutch, really has that gene of a real winner.
If he stays healthy, he'll win a few rings someday