Define the quality: "heart"

[CavaliersFTW]

Some of you throw that around like its a basketball term as valid as identifying a pick and roll play. Please define it, as to me it sounds a bit vague and like a cop out for learning actual reasons why a basketball team in the playoffs is struggling more than another doesn't it?

Maybe I'm wrong though, lets get some ISH definitions on "heart" in basketball

[the_troof]

Heart: Kevin Garnett
Anti-Heart: Stephen Curry, Dwight Howard

[CavaliersFTW]

Heart: Kevin Garnett
Anti-Heart: Stephen Curry, Dwight Howard
But what is heart? What ran through your head when you gave Garnett the heart label and Curry and Dwight came up on the other end of the spectrum?

[Kblaze8855]

Im not sure teams have heart....but I am sure players do.

[CavaliersFTW]

So like what jumps to my mind might be:

Joakim Noah: competes 100% every night, plays for the love of the game.

Andrew Bynum: only sometimes brings 100%, doesn't necessarily love the game.

Is that heart?

If so how would Steph Curry or Dwight not qualify? Wouldn't most NBA level players have to have "heart" to have even made it as far as they did in the professional ranks? Or do you need to wear it on your sleeve?

[the_troof]

But what is heart? What ran through your head when you gave Garnett the heart label and Curry and Dwight came up on the other end of the spectrum?
Garnett goes all out every single night, even when his body started to fail him. He loves the game and loved his teammates and was always fiercely loyal

Dwight howard doesn't ever look like he cares about the game, curry just plays for the stats and to look good. both are bitchboys

[Harison]

Its intangible, could be summarized as passion for the game and winning.

Heart: Russell, MJ, KG, Kobe, etc.

No-heart: Deron, Bynum, Melo, etc.

Then we have in betweeners, who sometimes have fire, sometimes shamefully quit, like Lebron or Dwight.

[pauk]

For me its about how competitive/agressive a player is ingame, having huge confidence in his ability, willing to do whatever it takes to win and/or be the best on the floor each night, especially when it matters, hustling, playing through injuries/pain perhaps in games if possible and having an insane work ethic.... its just that fire that burns inside, the sick determination to win and be the best (even the best ever)....

Wilt, Jordan, Kobe, Bird, Lebron, Magic and so on... those guys fit all of the above... then there are those guys who cant/are not able to have all those ambitions above (to be the best etc.) but are simply extremly passionate for the game trying desperately to win... many players are like that imo, some are just extra emotional/characteristic like Noah, KG, Reggie and so on....

[coin24]

For me its about how competitive/agressive a player is ingame, having huge confidence in his ability, willing to do whatever it takes to win and/or be the best on the floor each night, especially when it matters, hustling, playing through injuries and having an insane work ethic.... its just that fire that burns inside, the sick determination to win and/or be the best....

How great is our godbe:bowdown:

[CavaliersFTW]

Garnett goes all out every single night, even when his body started to fail him. He loves the game and loved his teammates and was always fiercely loyal

Dwight howard doesn't ever look like he cares about the game, curry just plays for the stats and to look good. both are bitchboys
One could say, Dwight Howard doesn't wear his emotions on his sleeve, and that Curry couldn't have ever gotten as good as he became based off the motivation of "looking good/stats"... wouldn't you need to love the game and have a competitive mind to take the 1,000 jump shots a day and put in the focused ball handling work, or whatever it takes to get a shot/handle like he has? Dwight played injured for like 2 seasons with his back messed up and never complained or used it as an excuse didn't he? Wouldn't that mean he had heart?

[Kblaze8855]

Joakim Noah: competes 100% every night, plays for the love of the game.

Andrew Bynum: only sometimes brings 100%, doesn't necessarily love the game.

Is that heart?

Essentially.

Not everybody wants it like John Starks wanted it:


http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/20150511/5207155/starkshustle-o.gif

[CavaliersFTW]

It's sounds to me though, like players who don't wear their emotions on their sleeve are going to get falsely labeled as having no heart.

Some players for example are poker faced and/or aloof towards the media, play injured or in pain through entire series or perhaps even seasons and you never learn about it until they write a book to set the record straight or tell their story a decade after they retire. If they even decide to write a book that is.

What could be interpreted as "no heart" in the eyes of a fan, could conceivably be polar opposite. If heart is desire to compete 100%, night in and night out, and love for the game I get that. Makes perfect sense. I'm just not convinced there's any reliable way to determine if a player has "heart" or not as not all players show their emotions or reveal their injuries.

[pauk]

It's sounds to me though, like players who don't wear their emotions on their sleeve are going to get falsely labeled as having no heart.

Some players for example are poker faced and/or aloof towards the media, play injured or in pain through entire series or perhaps even seasons and you never learn about it until they write a book to set the record straight or tell their story a decade after they retire. If they even decide to write a book that is.

What could be interpreted as "no heart" in the eyes of a fan, could conceivably be polar opposite. If heart is desire to compete 100%, night in and night out, and love for the game I get that. Makes perfect sense. I'm just not convinced there's any reliable way to determine if a player has "heart" or not as not all players show their emotions or reveal their injuries.

Exactly, agree.

[dunksby]

I will give you a synonym: Drive.

[ISHGoat]

Its actually pure bullshit. There are very small isolated cases of players without "heart" aka bynum. Even a cancer like melo and josh smith has heart.

Its the same fuking ******ry as "willing your team to victory". Which is just a synonym for chucking many many shots on bad efficiency.

[Legends66NBA7]

Heart is defined visually. It's hard to have a proper definition in words for Heart.

[ISHGoat]

Heart is defined visually. It's hard to have a proper definition in words for Heart.

aka its bullshit

[CavaliersFTW]

Let's take James Harden and Dennis Rodman for example. Rodman, during game time, is jumping into the stands, diving after every loose ball, hustling on defense, crashing the boards. Wears his emotions on his sleeve, you can tell he's trying.

Heart, right?


James Harden prone to getting blown by because his focus and/or energy isn't always there on defense. Isn't keen to risk injury diving into the stands. Poker faced 90% of the time.

No heart, right?


But wait a minute. Isn't Harden the type who wants the last shot in the game? Isn't he the one who works hard in the gym, putting in work after hours practicing his shots, eating right, showing up early to practices and leaving late working on his skillset just so that he can have those moments and be the guy carrying that load on that end of the floor? Isn't Rodman on the other hand, not working on his shot and gambling and boozing it up when it isn't game time? Perhaps maybe their priorities just aren't the same? Which one is a better way to be? Which one shows more heart?

[SourSamCassell]

Heart/Intensity/Determination/Focus...

Some of the best attributes to have

Jordan has "it"

Lebron has "it"

Kobe has "it"

Self-made wealthy people have it

They find their niche' and turn the drive and focus up to destructive levels

The people who are at the top of their craft are nearly sociopath in nature in the way they focus on that one thing at such extreme levels

Feel like Kobe is a great example of someone like this.. Always seemed to have a chip on his shoulders and never doubted himself... In my opinion; his greatest attribute. I can admire that as both a basketball fan and a human.

[Jailblazers7]

It's sounds to me though, like players who don't wear their emotions on their sleeve are going to get falsely labeled as having no heart.

Some players for example are poker faced and/or aloof towards the media, play injured or in pain through entire series or perhaps even seasons and you never learn about it until they write a book to set the record straight or tell their story a decade after they retire. If they even decide to write a book that is.

What could be interpreted as "no heart" in the eyes of a fan, could conceivably be polar opposite. If heart is desire to compete 100%, night in and night out, and love for the game I get that. Makes perfect sense. I'm just not convinced there's any reliable way to determine if a player has "heart" or not as not all players show their emotions or reveal their injuries.

I don't think it's necessarily that easy. I don't think anyone would deny Kawhi has heart and plays hard every night and he has the best poker face ever.

[kshutts1]

I'm with Cavs in that all NBA players have "heart" to some extent. They have to, to make it this far.

That said, having "heart" to me is just not quitting, not backing down, not relenting.

In my HS and college days, I was a really good scorer, relative to the competition of course. But there was one defender that, for some reason, was my kryptonite. I'd do everything I could go get loose and play well against him, but over time, with him almost always getting the best of me.. eventually I'd just kinda jog around, jog off screens, jack a shot IF I was open... I just stopped fighting. I had "realized" (really allowed myself to be) I was beat. I didn't show heart.

For a more recent, but much smaller sample size, example... I was watching a Portland/Memphis game earlier these playoffs, and Randolph had the ball and was bodying Aldridge. Aldridge provided almost no resistance. Looked like he was afraid of Randolph. That one play is when I "knew" that Portland would't win. When I "knew" that Aldridge was afraid of Randolph.

[CavaliersFTW]

Heart/Intensity/Determination/Focus...

Some of the best attributes to have

Jordan has "it"

Lebron has "it"

Kobe has "it"

Self-made wealthy people have it

They find their niche' and turn the drive and focus up to destructive levels

The people who are at the top of their craft are nearly sociopath in nature in the way they focus on that one thing at such extreme levels

Feel like Kobe is a great example of someone like this.. Always seemed to have a chip on his shoulders and never doubted himself... In my opinion; his greatest attribute. I can admire that as both a basketball fan and a human.
I would agree.

But people say Melo for example, doesn't have heart... he's been one of the best players in the NBA most of his entire career. He's a better player than 99.999% of the people on the planet earth, but he doesn't get the label of having heart in the opinions of some. How can that be so? I would think he's also putting in a shit load of work to get to where he's gotten.

[ArbitraryWater]

I would agree.

But people say Melo for example, doesn't have heart... he's been one of the best players in the NBA most of his entire career. He's a better player than 99.999% of the people on the planet earth, but he doesn't get the label of having heart in the opinions of some. How can that be so? I would think he's also putting in a shit load of work to get to where he's gotten.

We're talking about professional athletes, you may aswell say this about everyone..

[dunksby]

I would agree.

But people say Melo for example, doesn't have heart... he's been one of the best players in the NBA most of his entire career. He's a better player than 99.999% of the people on the planet earth, but he doesn't get the label of having heart in the opinions of some. How can that be so? I would think he's also putting in a shit load of work to get to where he's gotten.
I guess it's relative to competition and trolls have a way of exaggerating everything, compared to all other basketball players, Melo has tons of heart. He might have lost his motivation because of NYK being bad but he is a competitor. Now compared to guys like Kobe, LeBron, KD, WB I'd say he has less "drive" to success, he has LA LA to keep happy and family is more important to him it seems.

[Heilige]

A great post by Kblaze8855 that explains this concept:



All of you people hating on Lebron and Kobe need to have a coke and a smile and shut the **** up.


I cant believe how many people are checking for assists and needless rebounds talking about his game. A guy dropped 61 points on great shooting and 100% from the line in a win. And people need to look into his rebounds and assists? How many people have even scored more than 60 points? Off the top of my head:

Wilt
Kobe
Mj
Baylor
Thompson
Gervin
Drob
Pistol Pete
West
Barry
Mcgrady

60 points in an NBA game....especially a win...even more so..a CLOSE win? Have you any idea how exceptional you need to be to do that? Have you ever played an NBA player while they were actually in the NBA? I have. And he was a scrub by NBa standards. Shammond Williams is so good vs normal people its just a joke. Ive seen this guy playing games where hed only shoot with his off hand...and only floaters...no matter how far away....and miss maybe 2 shots the whole game. this guy is so good when he applies himself its disgusting. Ever see Steve Francis in that game he dropped 60 something on street players? Guy out there taking 30 foot fadeaways like nothing. Or Steve Nash? See him make 3-4 defenders look like children in those summer games?

Point is...just to be in the NBA you need to be of an absurd level of talent. To be in it...and able to be so much better than the rest of them you can drop 61? I cant even wrap my head around how good you have to be to do this. A 60 point game vs NBA players(even the Knicks) takes so much ability I cant believe anyone to ever play this game would hate on that performance.

When normal guys get hot we will act a little out of character. Im the first to say I cant shoot for ****. Yet one day I couldnt miss. No idea why. I made 6 threes in a game that day and couldnt miss shooting around either. Im out there taking shots id never take just because I feel it. You all know what I mean. If you play ball you know what I mean. When you feel you cant miss...you want to see if you cant miss. And when you are right you dont play your normal game.

So why would we then....after seeing a guy get as hot as Kobe was...hate on him for being able to do it on the highest level in the world in a game he won? Was he taking tons of bad shots? Not for him. Bad shots for Mark Madsen. But shots Kobe makes every day. So what is there to hate on?

If he keeps odom or Pau from a few rebounds the team really wasnt contested for how does that improve his performance? The team gets the ball either way. Is he really playing better by getting the ball instead of a teammate?

And the assistS? What is Kobe? A 2 guard. Hes a scorer by nature. A scorer in the zone shooting lights out vs a team that had no answer for him. Why the **** should he pass up shots to find teammates who cant hit open jumpers at the rate he was hitting contested ones? In a loss? Maybe you can say he needed to involve others more. But they WON.

Let me say that again.

They won.

Why....how....can any fan of this game downplay that performance? 5 assists and a couple rebounds dont make them get 2 wins for it. Kobe did the right thing. He playedh is game...and played it at a level few have ever reaced. Props to him. And about that level few have reached....


Lebron. Lebron is one who has also reached that godly level. And hes hated on for a 50 point triple double win because he was probably trying to answer Kobe? Now Im not gonna act like its the most team first idea to go out and try to compete with other greats or dominate with an agenda but im not gonna act like hes the first to do it either.

Two of the most team first players of all time(Magic and Larry) openly admit they would check the papers for the other guys numbers and try to match their great games. Jordan did the same. You think if Wilt saw that Russell had 30/40 he didnt want to beat it? Im gonna give you a little rundown just off the top of my head about how some of the legends of our game had their best games....


Im sure you know about thompson, Gervin, and Drob. all scoring title games. Thompson scored 73 to take the lead. Gervin needed I think 58 to get it back. Missed his first 6 shots but kept shooting. Got 63. Later Drob scored 71 to beat out Shaq(who had a good game to respond but I think he needed 53 to win the title). Drob was at a Clipper game attented by his brother and some soldiers he wanted to put on a show for but still....its not by chance he dropped 71 on the day he needed a big night for the scoring title.

Do you know why Larry Bird dropped 60 vs the Hawks? Because 3 days earlier Kevin Mchale had 57 to break Sam Jones Celtic record and Mchale and Bird had a bit of a rivalry. bird scored 60...stat padding towards the end....just to get the Celtics record from Mchale. really think its by chance he scores 60 the week his teammate dropped a career high 57? Its been well reported how Bird and Mchale had issues. Mchale thought Bird shot too much in the late 80s. They had a little thing. Bird got 60 because he was good enough to do it. And it wasnt even his best scoring outburst for the hell of it. After a bad night vs the Mavs where he questioned his teammates effort he told them these exact words "If you wont play hard ill go win by myself". And he intentionally froze out his teammates the first half of next game scoring I believe 41 in the first 22 minutes vs the Spurs. He made his point. He could win by himself and only played team ball because it wins games. Hed probably be hated on for it if not for them winning 67 games and the title that year.

Do youy know why Shaq got 60/20 vs the Clippets? It was his birthday and he felt like it. He decided to do it before the game and did it because he could. Not just getting hot and scoring in the flow of the game. He set out to celebrate his birthday and had 60/20 that night. Also...you know Shaq had a 24 point, 28 rebound, 15 block game? Well he had it right after some guy wrote an article calling him a lazy defender. He got 28 rebounds and 15 blocks vs the Nets....just because a guy questioned him.

Know why Jordan had the crazy string of triple doubles he had in about 88? A few writers questioned his all around ability in comparison to Bird and Magic. He went out and stat padded his ass off just to prove he could get triple doubles. Some of them on last minute rebounds and assists. some of them hed go out and drive and kick time and time again early to get 7-8 assists in the first and cruise to the rest late in the game. He straight took rebounds from the bigmen. He wasnt hurting the team. But he was stat padding and it got really obvious.

Know why Wilt got his last 60 point game? An SI article ran saying he could no longer score when he was late in his career as a Laker. So he goes out and get 66 the next game vs the Suns just to prove he could do it. You know why he lead the NBa in assists? To prove he could. Know how he got a 20/20/20 game? Because nobody ever did it and he felt like it. Same way he got 100. It was an obvious effort to get him points. Team fouling to get him the ball back and all. He was getting sent to the line with the assumption hed miss as he got close. Luckily for him he had one of the few good nights at the line of his career. He didnt get 100 in the flow of a game.

You know that in college Oscar Robertson went back into a game his team was up 50 in with like a minute or two left just because he found out he was a point shy of the conference record? He had about 55 or 56 and scored a few more. ended up in the 60s. Just to get the record....in a game he was up 50 points in. if Lebron or Kobe did that ISH would lose its gotdamn mind.

How about Barkley? His career high 56 was vs Chris webber and the Warriors. Many believe it was because of that famous behind the back dunk Webber had on him that was put into a commercial. But that alone doesnt prove he was out with an agenda. But you know what I feel does? His first game vs the Suns after they traded him to houston. He had Like 20 points....but he had 33 or 34 rebounds. He had his best rebounding game ever the first time he played the Suns. He has later admitted he wanted to have a crazy game. Pasth is prime this guy went out and had a 30 something rebound game just for the sake of killing his old team.

Know why Karl Malone had 61? He did it the very first game after the all star starters were announced. Ac Green was voted the starter and Karl was left to be picked by the coaches. So he goes out and scores 61 just to prove a point. And in case you didnt know.....the Jazz won that game by 48 points. It was one of the biggest blowouts in NBA history. To his credit he stopped at like 32-33 minutes of playing time but the game was over before then. He scored the points in early garbage time just because he was pissed off.

Speaking of Karl...you know why he broke Isiah Thomas face? Because Isiah had a 40 point game just owning Stockton in a disrespectful manner. Know why he did it? Isiah was pissed he was left off the first dream team and he lit up Stockon who made it.



Part 2 of Kblaze pose coming up....

[Heilige]

Part 2


We have Mike, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Malone, Isiah, Barkley, Oscar, and so on....all of them legends...all of them people who if you compared Lebron to them after this game people would come in wioth talk of stat padding and so on...ignoring the fact that crazy dominant games....really dont happen for no reason all that often.

There are times a guy just goes off and kills it. But a hell of a lot of guys have these games where the yare somehow motivated to one up someone....prove a point...or just want to show off.

I see it as an impressive thing to be able to go out and get 60/20 because its your birthday. Or get a 50 point triple double because Kobe just got 60. I dont mind that Magic admits he got some big nights because he heard what Bird did just before the game.

You know why?

Because of what drives it. Being competitive. The same thing that makes a guy work to the point hes good enough for these feats to begin with. Barkley gets 35 rebounds for the suns for the same reason he hopped over a fence back and forth every day when he was young to develop his hops. Isiah murders John Stockton for the same reason he was able to lead his team to two titles. Jordan cheats at Go Fish and stat pads to shut people up for the same reason he was able to win 6 titles. Bill Russell talks about his rings for the same reason Wilt got the NBA record 55 rebounds in a game vs Russell. Larry Bird scored 60 for the same reason he ran the stairs and shot around at Boson Garden before games while people with 10 times his athletic ability were asleep. Kobe wenta little too hard for 40 points to get to 9 straight games of it vs the Sonics in 2003 for the same reason he has developed a good shot with his left hand and watched Chris Pauls handles and tried to copy moves he thought were effective. These guys get where they are because they all strive to be better than anyone else. Not just to be better...but for you...us...to know it.

Lebron and Kobe are nothing but the modern version of what nearly all legends have been. Hard working monsters of talent who will do anything to be seen as the best.

I for one dont mind. Why? The day the greats lose the will to be the best is the day we dont have greats anymore.

Even if Lebron did TRY to get 52/11/10......I think you should be more impressed that he could actually do it and win than be worried about what his motivation is. Especially when his motivation is the same thing that motivates everyone who ever stood at the top of the game.

These guys stand tall at or near the peak of human potential for this sport and I will not hate on them for wanting to be the best. Besides....

They won.

Which really should be all the reason you need to shut the **** up. But im a wordy one.....

From 2009

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108405&page=8

[Kblaze8855]

Isn't Harden the type who wants the last shot in the game? Isn't he the one who works hard in the gym, putting in work after hours practicing his shots, eating right, showing up early to practices and leaving late working on his skillset just so that he can have those moments and be the guy carrying that load on that end of the floor?

You dont get to the NBA as a scorer if you didnt work hard to develop skills. Nobody just wakes up good enough to knock down 25 footers and keep their dribble in traffic.

You pretty much described how 90% of people under 6'8'' get to be professionals on an NBA level. I watched Shammond williams do all that to just barely get a roster spot for a few years. And I watched his more talented younger brother Alfred do none of it and end up coaching an NAIA school you never heard of.

So there is a baseline level of dedication that just comes with getting the skill needed to play in the NBA.

Once thats put aside...then you could start putting people in tiers I suppose. But everyone would have that basic dedication which to an outsider...would seem extreme.

That said....Dennis Rodman was one of the hardest workers in the NBa and several coaches/teammates have said so. He just wasnt working on skills he wasnt there to provide. Dennis might play 40 minutes then ride the cardio bike for 2 hours after everyone left. He was as conditioned as anyone ever. And that didnt come from doing shots in vegas.

[CavaliersFTW]

I'm with Cavs in that all NBA players have "heart" to some extent. They have to, to make it this far.

That said, having "heart" to me is just not quitting, not backing down, not relenting.

In my HS and college days, I was a really good scorer, relative to the competition of course. But there was one defender that, for some reason, was my kryptonite. I'd do everything I could go get loose and play well against him, but over time, with him almost always getting the best of me.. eventually I'd just kinda jog around, jog off screens, jack a shot IF I was open... I just stopped fighting. I had "realized" (really allowed myself to be) I was beat. I didn't show heart.

For a more recent, but much smaller sample size, example... I was watching a Portland/Memphis game earlier these playoffs, and Randolph had the ball and was bodying Aldridge. Aldridge provided almost no resistance. Looked like he was afraid of Randolph. That one play is when I "knew" that Portland would't win. When I "knew" that Aldridge was afraid of Randolph.
Okay so you had a defender that got to you (job well done by him) but isn't that not all that unusual? I bet after you figured it out you weren't going to let it keep happening.

Shaq has gone on record saying the only guy he ever faced in the NBA that he could never break and make them do what you described was Hakeem Olajuwon.

Wes Unseld has said that about Willis Reed, that he couldn't break his will to keep fighting through every play.

What does that say about guys like Ewing, Jabbar, and Walton, that they had no heart because a guy like Shaq or Unseld had their number?

I would think those players still had heart... just that some matchups are inevitably bound to be a real pain in the ass. Some defenders/matchups are just REALLY good, Nate Thurmond for example had both Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's number on defense. But Wilt's still a guy who won an NBA Finals MVP with a broken hand and sprained wrist, and Jabbar is still a guy who won 6 MVP's. I'd still think they had heart, even if every once in a while someone could throw off their game. They probably threw off the games of others more than the other way around too.

[StephHamann]

James Harden prone to getting blown by because his focus and/or energy isn't always there on defense. Isn't keen to risk injury diving into the stands. Poker faced 90% of the time.

No heart, right?


But wait a minute. Isn't Harden the type who wants the last shot in the game? Isn't he the one who works hard in the gym, putting in work after hours practicing his shots, eating right, showing up early to practices and leaving late working on his skillset just so that he can have those moments and be the guy carrying that load on that end of the floor? Isn't Rodman on the other hand, not working on his shot and gambling and boozing it up when it isn't game time? Perhaps maybe their priorities just aren't the same? Which one is a better way to be? Which one shows more heart?

Harden made only 2 field goals after the first quarter in the most important game of the series.

He shot only 12 times despite having an ok FG%. This guy is supposed to be the second best player in the league? :biggums:

[kshutts1]

Okay so you had a defender that got to you (job well done by him) but isn't that not all that unusual? I bet after you figured it out you weren't going to let it keep happening.

Shaq has gone on record saying the only guy he ever faced in the NBA that he could never break and make them do what you described was Hakeem Olajuwon.

Wes Unseld has said that about Willis Reed, that he couldn't break his will to keep fighting through every play.

What does that say about guys like Ewing, Jabbar, and Walton, that they had no heart because a guy like Shaq or Unseld had their number?

I would think those players still had heart... just that some matchups are inevitably bound to be a real pain in the ass. Some defenders/matchups are just REALLY good, Nate Thurmond for example had both Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's number on defense. But Wilt's still a guy who won an NBA Finals MVP with a broken hand and sprained wrist, and Jabbar is still a guy who won 6 MVP's. I'd still think they had heart, even if every once in a while someone could throw off their game. They probably threw off the games of others more than the other way around too.
Perhaps you are right, but I more meant it is a general, uniform "I quit" mental process.

Down 13 with 35 seconds to go? I quit. Why bother trying?
Playing against someone who is supposed to be better than me? I quit.

Just that general "quit". Don't see much of that in the pros, though. Not much at all.

I don't think that "Heart" is a real thing, necessarily. Just a catch-phrase used to lump in players who have played for bad teams, and thus never won anything... McGrady (even though his PO stats went up), Paul, Webber, etc.

[KevinNYC]

It's sounds to me though, like players who don't wear their emotions on their sleeve are going to get falsely labeled as having no heart.

Some players for example are poker faced and/or aloof towards the media, play injured or in pain through entire series or perhaps even seasons and you never learn about it until they write a book to set the record straight or tell their story a decade after they retire. If they even decide to write a book that is.

Totally disagree and the evidence is Larry Bird's first few years in Boston. He was a poker face and often said nothing in public/to the press. The Larry Bird we now know only came after several years. Initially he was a very shy private person from a small town and small college. He walked away from Indiana because he couldn't get used to a big college.

However, from day one, no one ever doubted his heart and they saw how hard he played the game. Bird didn't take nights off and some games never took a single play off.

Heart is how hard you play when things are not going well for you. Some guys play hard when things are rolling for them, but they pack it in when adversity hits.

I would also say that taking nights off or playing just for yourself might be anti-heart too.....but that might be something that I can put my finger on right now.

[kshutts1]

That said....Dennis Rodman was one of the hardest workers in the NBa and several coaches/teammates have said so. He just wasnt working on skills he wasnt there to provide. Dennis might play 40 minutes then ride the cardio bike for 2 hours after everyone left. He was as conditioned as anyone ever. And that didnt come from doing shots in vegas.
Not only that, but I read somewhere (forgot the source) that Rodman watched how other players MISSED. Not their moves (though I'm sure he did a lot of that), but rather he tracked their misses. If the shot was short/long, where did the rebound normally end up? Things like that. So that this dude, that was 6'6, 220 pounds, battling behemoths that out-sized him significantly, could win the rebounding title year after year after year after year.

I won't say that Rodman worked harder off the court at rebounding than anyone ever. But I will say that I can't name anyone that has worked harder off the court. Or on, for that matter.

[CavaliersFTW]

Harden made only 2 field goals after the first quarter in the most important game of the series.

He shot only 12 times despite having an ok FG%. This guy is supposed to be the second best player in the league? :biggums:
So he had an off night those are bound to happen aren't they?

Lebron has had them, Kobe has had them, it happens. Usually those players are the ones most upset by their performance try and make up for it either in other areas that same game, or by playing relentless with a chip on their shoulder the next night.

Is heart a player who never has an off-night or sub-par performance? If so, there aren't many that I can think of that would meet that description.

[KevinNYC]

heart and talent are two different qualities.

[CavaliersFTW]

Not only that, but I read somewhere (forgot the source) that Rodman watched how other players MISSED. Not their moves (though I'm sure he did a lot of that), but rather he tracked their misses. If the shot was short/long, where did the rebound normally end up? Things like that. So that this dude, that was 6'6, 220 pounds, battling behemoths that out-sized him significantly, could win the rebounding title year after year after year after year.

I won't say that Rodman worked harder off the court at rebounding than anyone ever. But I will say that I can't name anyone that has worked harder off the court. Or on, for that matter.
A few great rebounders are described as doing that Bill Russell and Jerry Lucas have said they did that too, Lucas is famous for his freakish memory he claims he remembers how everyone's missed shots tended to fall. I think Wilt or someone Wilt played with detailed that Wilt would spend 2 hour sessions practicing just rebounding. Probably comes with the territory of being a "great" rebounder to study how rebounds fall and dedicate a large volume of your time and energy on understanding rebounds.

[KiiiiNG]

is this a foreign concept to you or something?

its one of those things you either understand or you dont i suppose

you just weren't blessed with the ability to gauge heart

[blablabla]

Heart describes mental attributes like determination, composure, work ethic etc.
There are guys that work incredibly hard on their games but in the end crumble under pressure, there are guys that would do anything just so their team can win a game, there are guys that would do anything to make themselves look good but that could care less about the W. It's hard to gauge those attributes but watching someone like harden and his demeanor on the court you can tell that he doesn't have that decisive mental edge that all the legendary championship winning players had.

[CavaliersFTW]

is this a foreign concept to you or something?

its one of those things you either understand or you dont i suppose

you just weren't blessed with the ability to gauge heart
What people on here are generally describing as "heart" is not a foreign concept to me.

Identifying it as a quality lacking in competitive NBA players a foreign concept to me yes.

Perhaps I give the players in the NBA too much credit, but keep thinking the only guys in the NBA who legitimately could be argued not to have "heart" would be outliers. Like, an Andrew Bynum. A guy who is needed, but just didn't always seem interested to play.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

is this a foreign concept to you or something?

its one of those things you either understand or you dont i suppose

you just weren't blessed with the ability to gauge heart

:lol

[KiiiiNG]

What people on here are generally describing as "heart" is not a foreign concept to me.

Identifying it as a quality lacking in competitive NBA players a foreign concept to me yes.

Perhaps I give the players in the NBA too much credit, but keep thinking the only guys in the NBA who legitimately could be argued not to have "heart" would be outliers. Like, an Andrew Bynum. A guy who is needed, but just didn't always seem interested to play.
well yeah most if not all nba players have heart compared to the average joe

just like anything else though there are guys who seem to have a lot more heart than others... and you can typically tell by how hard they play and their body language

guys that stand out to me for example are westbrook, conley, cp3, young d-wade... and many others

and you compare them to someone like dwight howard and the difference is obvious to me

ask any head coach and they'll tell you the same thing. some guys have more heart than others. and sometimes its what separates good players from great players and winning from losing

[Simple Jack]

Any "intangible" attribute, that requires understanding what is going on in a players head - will be impossible to determine formulaically. We can guess all we want but like OP said, we have no idea what is going on in their head. They could be the aloof/quiet type who deep down really is giving it 110% to win the game, but would be falsely labeled as having no heart because they don't wear it on their sleeve.

[oarabbus]

Some of you throw that around like its a basketball term as valid as identifying a pick and roll play. Please define it, as to me it sounds a bit vague and like a cop out for learning actual reasons why a basketball team in the playoffs is struggling more than another doesn't it?

Maybe I'm wrong though, lets get some ISH definitions on "heart" in basketball

Cavs I like you and your posts, nothing personal but I can't resist...


Not surprised "heart" would sound vague to a Wilt fan.

[FireDavidKahn]

Not giving up at the first sign of adversity. The Rockets did this year and last year.

[Mass Debator]

Someone who doesn't back down. Someone who values the game more than their own life. You do things without thinking twice if you'd get hurt or if another would look down on you. You're just trying your best all the time.

To me, "heart" can happen in spurts and some only show heart in certain circumstances. Do it often and it then becomes a reputation. Not showing it in closing moments kind of warrants an unclutch label.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

http://videos.usatoday.net/Brightcove2/29906170001/2014/09/29906170001_3809140616001_Screen-Shot-2014-09-26-at-10-43-09-PM.jpg

[ChrisKreager]

How many of you people who say Curry has no heart were saying he had heart when he led that comeback against the Pelicans?

[smoovegittar]

D. Wade.:rockon:

[Asukal]

Heart is simply the mental toughness of a player and his desire to win at any cost. When things go bad, a player with heart does not get shaken, he will do what he thinks is necessary to win. Example: Kobe, this guy will chuck his way to victory even if he will ultimately fail in the end. :lol

[TheBigVeto]

D. Wade.:rockon:

His heart is the ref's bailouts.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Effort and drive.

However, I would argue heart matters less DURING the game, then in comparison to heart/drive when it comes to PRACTICING, away from gametime

[NZStreetBaller]

People are confusing heart with passion Or the love of the game. Heart is kobe when he broke his achilles. Giving his all to get his struggling team to the playoffs. Or cp3 with a bung hamstring doing what it takes to beat the spurs. Or when a coach calls timeout to show respect to reggie miller.

a consistent effort in the game to me equates passion. But what you do when things arent going well and your refusal to give up regardless of how bad things look is heart.

[julizaver]

Some of you throw that around like its a basketball term as valid as identifying a pick and roll play. Please define it, as to me it sounds a bit vague and like a cop out for learning actual reasons why a basketball team in the playoffs is struggling more than another doesn't it?

Maybe I'm wrong though, lets get some ISH definitions on "heart" in basketball

Not only in basketball, when you say for someone that he plays with heart it means that he give it all (extra efforts including), esspeccially when matters most. It is not connected with the love for the game, it is more connected at winning at every cost and contributing more to the team, forsing your body to its physical limits - sometimes to the expense of your health. It could be used for players playing through injuries, pain and giving more than expected from them at that point. At least this is what it means for me.

Playing with heart I could use for MJ's flue game vs Jazz, or I.Thomas 4th quarter heroics vs Lakers ("One of Thomas' most inspiring and self-defining moments came in Game 6. Although he had severely sprained his ankle late in the game, Thomas continued to play. While hobbling and in obvious pain, Thomas scored 25 points in a single quarter of the game, an NBA Finals record.")

[julizaver]

I find also the following concept in the net:

H.E.A.R.T = Having Enough Attitude Resilience and Toughness