Who started the false idea that posting up is HARDER today?

[3ball]

The NBA never said the new rules made it harder for post players.. They only said the rules made ball movement and dribble penetration easier.. With ball movement and penetration easier and used more than ever, skilled post up players aren't needed or being developed.

But the NBA never said the new rules made post-ups harder - there is zero evidence to support that.. Infact, the NBA said easier penetration has created more 3-point shots via drive-and-kicks - the increased drive-and-kicks along with defensive 3 seconds have opened up the middle of the floor and made post-ups EASIER:


NBA: The benefits of an open game are not limited to just perimeter players. An open game can benefit a post player as well. Remember, if the players are spaced wider and using more of the court, then defenses have to play those players closely because they're good shooters. The style actually serves to open up the middle of the floor. If a team has an effective post player, he would have more room to operate in the post.

NBA: Our game does more closely resemble an international game in terms of the style of play than it used to. However, there are distinct differences in the international game vs. the NBA game. The international game utilizes a pure zone defense (as opposed to the defensive three-second rule), which allows frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration.


http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html

[GimmeThat]

Teams and Transition defense

[jzek]

What I don't get is why kids today don't try to master Jordan's post move. It's almost guaranteed 2 pts and is unblockable and unstoppable even with a double or triple team.

You catch it anywhere near the post, turn around or fadeaway, and shoot. Instead of practicing that dunk that will get you 10M views on YouTube, why not actually work on your game?

[Levity]

That was me. My bad.

[3ball]

The stats prove that previous era bigs would score easier on the post than today's bigs.

The top 5 big men in post efficiency (points-per-possession, PPP) are Jonas Valcunious, Kevin Love, Donatas Montejunas, Lamarcus Aldridge, and Marc Gasol.

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&sort=PPP&CF=Poss*GE*200&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

All these guys achieve the standard for elite efficiency of 1.00 PPP, despite having weak post games.. This proves how much the superior bigs of previous would dominate today's game - all the bigs listed below from 1996 were better post scorers than today's top 5, so they'd ALSO be getting elite post PPP.. And clearly, today's top 5 wouldn't even be in the top 10 if these guys were playing:

Hakeem
Shaq
Robinson
Ewing
Alonzo
Sabonis
Karl Malone
Barkley
Webber
Kemp

And probably Rik Smits, Vin Baker, Dino Radja, and certainly Derrick Coleman.

The league changed the rules in 2005 to increase the percentages on ball movement and dribble penetration, which have surpassed post-ups in some spots.. But the percentages on post-ups themselves haven't diminished at all, as proven by the elite post percentages of today's bigs, which only demonstrates how much the superior bigs of previous eras would dominate today.
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[ISHGoat]

What I don't get is why kids today don't try to master Jordan's post move. It's almost guaranteed 2 pts and is unblockable and unstoppable even with a double or triple team.

You catch it anywhere near the post, turn around or fadeaway, and shoot. Instead of practicing that dunk that will get you 10M views on YouTube, why not actually work on your game?

Cuz 10m views on YouTube is pretty big $$

[ShawkFactory]

Who has said this?

[3ball]

Who has said this?





The league made it WORSE by changing the rules to favor perimeter players even more, the C position has been dying since the mid 90's but the NBA took it out back and blew it to pieces with the new rules


..

[ShawkFactory]

Cuz 10m views on YouTube is pretty big $$
And being out of the league 10 years early because all you can do is dunk is an even bigger loss of $$

[gasolina]

What about defenses loading up the strong side? It's quite hard to post up against a zone

[3ball]

http://i61.tinypic.com/2z7mnvm.png


Today's player benefits from weakside floor-spreaders that take defenders away from the strongside.

In the picture above, Joakim Noah has to leave Mosgov and flood to the strongside, otherwise the strongside won't even have 3 defenders on it.. But this is just a simple example - using weakside spacing to take defenders away from the strongside is beginning-level strategy used by every team in today's game.

Otoh, teams barely took any 3-pointers at all in previous eras, and therefore didn't have weakside floor-spacing, so offensive players frequently faced all 5 defenders (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21) on the strongside of the court, and therefore a tougher defensive environment.. Today's players never face a strongside with all 5 defenders on it, because teams ENSURE this doesn't happen with weakside floor-spacing.

[Yoshi]

That was me. My bad.
:mad:

[ShawkFactory]

..
So you KNOW who started it...why you asking then?

[3ball]

So you KNOW who started it...why you asking then?


Way to play dumb - obviously, that's not the guy who started it - he's just repeating a commonly heard notion by new and/or less aware fans (including the media).

There are a ton of posts on ISH and every other forum where posters feel that posting up is harder today.

[GimmeThat]

where is your evidence?

i provided evidence where the NBA said posting up was EASIER in today's game.

you respond with "teams and transition defense.".. is that supposed to have meaning of some kind?

The NBA said it Can be easier for post players.

But besides that, lets say there's 4 players. A and B are front court players. E and F are back court players.

Since the rule change benefits both peremiter players AND post players (as you have cited) but it only benefits A player by... set random numerical PER at plus 4, and benefits B at plus 6. Using this same formula applied to E and F. Then the rule change does indeed make post plays more difficult for some. This is not even accounting the fact that it is a 48min game, and thus could be argued as a zero-sum impact rule change.

This part is just logic, I will bite my tongue on the transition defense aspect as it is for fanatics

[gasolina]

http://i61.tinypic.com/2z7mnvm.png


Today's player benefits from weakside floor-spreaders that take defenders away from the strongside.

In the picture above, Joakim Noah has to leave Mosgov and flood to the strongside, otherwise the strongside won't even have 3 defenders on it.. But this is just a simple example - using weakside spacing to take defenders away from the strongside is beginning-level strategy used by every team in today's game.

Otoh, teams barely took any 3-pointers at all in previous eras, and therefore didn't have weakside floor-spacing, so offensive players frequently faced all 5 defenders (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21) on the strongside of the court, and therefore a tougher defensive environment.. Today's players never face a strongside with all 5 defenders on it, because teams ENSURE this doesn't happen with weakside floor-spacing.
Did you and I watch the same thing? The reason there was less threes is because offenses havent evolved that way. Plus illegal defense calls prevented defenses from loading up the strong side even without shooters. You had to stay him even if it was dennis rodman out there.

[Hey Yo]

http://i61.tinypic.com/2z7mnvm.png
Noah and Pau paint camping with Dunleavy ready to help also if LeBron decided to take it to the hole.

Never a clear path for James.

[Chadwin]

depends on if you have respectable shooters out there or not

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/6f2bdd4d49761fa8f80d0db756aa9770.gif


Noah and Pau paint camping with Dunleavy ready to help also if LeBron decided to take it to the hole.


You're missing the point - Lebron only faces 3 defenders on the strongside and that's WITH Joakim flooding over - this is standard for today's game - today's player only faces 2-3 defenders on the strongside because weakside floor-spreaders/spacing keeps defenders away from the strongside.

Previous eras didn't have weakside floor-spreaders or spacing, so players faced more defenders on the strongside, frequently ALL 5 DEFENDERS (see GIF above)..

Otoh, today's player NEVER faces a strongside with all 5 defenders on it, because there is always weakside floor-spreaders and spacing.

[oarabbus]

Otoh, today's player NEVER faces a strongside with all 5 defenders on it, because there is always weakside floor-spreaders and spacing.

Exactly, defenses were terrible in the 90s.

[bdreason]

It's easier to double the post and recover from the double, making playing from the inside - out less efficient. You also have to understand that offensive strategies are all relative. When slashing to the rim became a more efficient offensive strategy, playing from the post became a relatively less effective offensive strategy. Teams are also using analytics to figure out rebound rates and rebound strategies. For example, a team can improve their offensive rebound rate by taking 3 point shots early in the shot clock, as long as their teammates are prepared for the early shot. When you ISO a player on the post, and a shot is taken, the offensive rebound rate is significantly lower, because the offense has less players in position to rebound, and the defense has more players prepared to rebound.

[AirFederer]

MJ would not be effective in the post today because the refs would call his travels. Sorry :confusedshrug:

[outbreak]

A lot of big men don't get taught the correct fundamentals these days either, if a junior coach has a 14 year old kid who's looking like he'll be a 7 footer they'd rather they and use his size and strength advantage to dominate teams and try to raise their own stock as a coach/recruiter than take the time to teach a proper post up game that uses correct footwork and positioning. Kids don't see that part of the game as entertaining either they all want to be ball handles\shooters\drivers like KD.

[ralph_i_el]

STU JACKSON

This dude could have been drunk AF for that interview. You don't need to keep posting it like it's holy Scriptures 3ball. Use your eyes.

5 second rule and Zone D have made posting to score harder.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Exactly, defenses were terrible in the 90s.

while man-to-man defense is less effective now, as a whole team defense is far better than it was in the 90s

[3ball]

man-to-man defense is less effective today, but as a whole team defense is far better than it was in the 90s


Remember that league-wide ORtg and DRtg been exactly the same the last 10 years as it was in the 90's.
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[Lensanity]

I play SG and SF at a pretty high level, not NBA obviously. I'm really good at the MJ post up fade away and other moves 1 on 1 but in games I constantly attract the help defender in the post. I can't really do anything in the post against 2 people. I think this has become common in the NBA as well. Defenses and rotations are more complex so double teaming in the post is more effective with more advanced rotations from the other 3 players.

[3ball]

I think this has become common in the NBA as well. Defenses and rotations are more complex so double teaming in the post is more effective with more advanced rotations from the other 3 players.


Do you understand what "no spacing" means?.. It means defenders are in closer proximity and help from closer distances.

Previous eras had no spacing, so defenders helped from closer distances..

Today's game HAS spacing, so defenders must help from further distances.. This includes the post, which is EXACTLY why the NBA officially stated post scoring was easier (quotes in the OP)..

The "advanced rotations" you speak of aren't necessary when defenders are already close together - indeed, the spacing necessitates the "advanced" rotations.

[3ball]

STU JACKSON


As the creator and implementer of the new rules, Stu's statements about the rules are not subjective opinion, just like Bill Gates vision for Microsoft was never considered subjective opinion.

So when you make up your own unsubstantiated theories, it's the very definition of delusional - that's like me saying "Forget what Bill Gates' vision for Microsoft is, here's what I think Microsoft's vision is."

[3ball]

Use your eyes.


My eyes tell me that today's game has spacing on every possession, including the utilization of weakside floor-spreaders that take defenders away from the strongside.

My eyes also tell me that previous era DIDN'T have spacing or weakside floor-spreaders, so players faced more defenders on the strongside, usually all 5 defenders..

Today's players simply never face a weakside that has all 5 defenders (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21) on it, because teams use weakside spacing to ensure it never happens.. Those are the facts.

[Showtime80']

BS on being harder to score today in the post, kids have just not developed the tools and fundamentals since the mid 90's to be dominant the way those other players were. They want to be SF's and SG's

As I said in numerous other threads, college basketball NEVER had any problems developing dominant low post scorers from the 1940's up until the early 90's and they ALWAYS had a pure zone defense and for most of that time did not have a 3 point line which meant LESS space for people to maneuver. However, they got swept up in the "I wanna be like Mike" syndrome like the NBA did.

[3ball]

It's easier to double the post and recover from the double


You made this up - it's PATENTLY FALSE.

Spacing makes defenders help from further distances - you know this right?.. Not only must defenders help from further distances, but they can't paint-camp anymore.. Spacing + no paint-camping means it's HARDER to double team the post, not easier.





When you ISO a player on the post, and a shot is taken, the offensive rebound rate is significantly lower, because the offense has less players in position to rebound, and the defense has more players prepared to rebound.


Wow, what a lie.. So if post-ups have a lower offensive rebounding rate, then less post-ups should mean offensive rebounding rate is HIGHER today... Yet it's way lower, because the OPPOSITE of what you said is true.

The offensive rebounding rate on 2-pointers is far greater than 3-pointers - this has been proven.. In today's game, the 3-point shooters and paint-camping ban take defenders further from the hoop, which has LOWERED offensive rebounding rate.. Just look at the stats - teams had WAAAAAY higher offensive rebounding rates when they shot mostly two-pointers in the 70's, 80's and 90's.
.

[3ball]

BS on being harder to score today in the post, kids have just not developed the tools and fundamentals since the mid 90's to be dominant the way those other players were. They want to be SF's and SG's

As I said in numerous other threads, college basketball NEVER had any problems developing dominant low post scorers from the 1940's up until the early 90's and they ALWAYS had a pure zone defense and for most of that time did not have a 3 point line which meant LESS space for people to maneuver. However, they got swept up in the "I wanna be like Mike" syndrome like the NBA did.


:applause: .... Excellent

More proof that the zone doesn't reduce post play.. The only reason post play isn't used as much today is because the rule changes allowed the efficiency of ball movement and penetration to SURPASS post-ups, but the efficiency of post-ups THEMSELVES hasn't diminished at all.
.

[Rose'sACL]

I started it. So many teams agree with me. All coaches do as well. I am like a son to rick Carlisle. I get to hang out with dirk all the time.

Rick, dirk and I all laugh when someone says that jump shooting teams can't win NBA title.

[3ball]

Use your eyes.



Can someone show me where today's player faces a strongside with all 5 defenders on it like this?.. Night and day from the OP picture


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/6f2bdd4d49761fa8f80d0db756aa9770.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/54cd4db17a9330ca58b8e33a0b6f9b2f.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cc9f5bd27abe1cedf21d5f3133957e62.gif


Today's player never faces a strongside with all 5 defenders on it because the NBA now has spacing, so teams use weakside floor-spreaders to ENSURE the strongside isn't congested with defenders... In the GIFs above, no zone, shading or flooding is needed - the lack of spacing means that stuff is all automatic - that stuff is only needed BECAUSE of spacing.
.

[HylianNightmare]

That was me. My bad.
My dude not trying to ride your dick too hard you crack me up. From the hank hill av to your sense of humor you kill me

[3ball]

Can someone show me where today's player faces a strongside with all 5 defenders on it like this?.. Night and day from the OP picture


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/6f2bdd4d49761fa8f80d0db756aa9770.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/54cd4db17a9330ca58b8e33a0b6f9b2f.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cc9f5bd27abe1cedf21d5f3133957e62.gif


Today's player never faces a strongside with all 5 defenders on it because the NBA now has spacing, so teams use weakside floor-spreaders to ENSURE the strongside isn't congested with defenders... In the GIFs above, things like zone, shading or flooding is not needed - the lack of spacing means that stuff is all automatic - that stuff is only needed BECAUSE of spacing.

.
Just like i thought - no counterargument.. I guess at some point, 2+2=4:

Without 3-point shooting, previous eras didn't have weakside floor-spreaders to bring defenders away from the strongside, and therefore faced more defenders on the strongside than today's offensive player.

Accordingly, previous era wings like MJ and Bird, who were accustomed to facing paint-camping and strongsides with all 5 defenders on it, would simply DESTROY today's porous strongsides that only have 2-3 defenders on them.. 5 defenders > 2-3.. Period.

[oarabbus]

Just like i thought - no counterargument.. It is what it is:

Without 3-point shooting, previous eras didn't have weakside floor-spreaders to bring defenders away from the strongside, and therefore faced more defenders on the strongside than today's offensive player.

Accordingly, previous era wings like MJ and Bird, who were accustomed to facing paint-camping and strongsides with all 5 defenders on it, would simply DESTROY today's porous strongsides that only have 2-3 defenders on them.. 5 defenders > 2-3.. Period.


Yep, the offenses back then were utter shit, in addition to weaker defensive schemes and poor help defense.

[Round Mound]

:applause:

No More Barkley`s or Shaq`s...:cry:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU_0FmXEBnY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QDSVce3tkA]

When Tim Duncan and Pau Gasol are Retired, It Will Be The TOTAL End of The Post Game

The Only Dude Other Than Those 2 That Has a Relative "Good Post Game" is That Zach R...something...he would be like a Modern Day Wyman Tisdale (RIP BTW) at Best Back Then...

[3ball]

Yep, the offenses back then were utter shit


You're missing the point.. If Stephen Curry went back in time to 1985, he would suffer from the coach's bad offense just like everyone else - none of his teammates would be spreading the floor for him, so Curry would face no-spacing and packed paints just like everyone else..

With no teammates shooting 3's and spacing the floor, Curry wouldn't have weakside floor-spreaders drawing defenders away from the strongside, so he would face more defenders on the strongside than he faces in today's game.

[Showtime80']

Modern offenses are basically lay ups or drain 20 seconds off the clock to shoot a 3 pointer. That my friend is utter SH!T!!! Offenses in the 80's were quick hitting because they looked for the fast break first and foremost and if that wasn't available they set up the half court offense letting everything flow from the INSIDE OUT! That meant open mid range game for guys who actually saw the value in draining 20 footers.

You think the 80's Celtics or Lakers would play any different if they were transported to this pathetic era!?!? They would still pound the ball inside, get the other teams over the foul limit by mid quarter with today's soft rules and then proceed to run the team off the building to the tune of 120 points.

If a soft jump shooting team like the Warriors or as previously done a few years ago by Nash's Suns can put 110+ on today's so called "superior defensive league" I shutter to think what those 80's well oiled machine offenses could put up

[fragokota]

That was me. My bad.

:lol :oldlol:

[ralph_i_el]

Can someone show me where today's player faces a strongside with all 5 defenders on it like this?.. Night and day from the OP picture


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/6f2bdd4d49761fa8f80d0db756aa9770.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/54cd4db17a9330ca58b8e33a0b6f9b2f.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cc9f5bd27abe1cedf21d5f3133957e62.gif


Today's player never faces a strongside with all 5 defenders on it because the NBA now has spacing, so teams use weakside floor-spreaders to ENSURE the strongside isn't congested with defenders... In the GIFs above, no zone, shading or flooding is needed - the lack of spacing means that stuff is all automatic - that stuff is only needed BECAUSE of spacing.
.

no zone, shading or flooding is needed....because all the offensive players are waiting around in the paint. Why is that? Because they were poor shooters? Because they assumed a midrange J was going to be chucked, so they needed to get ready for offensive rebounds?

[kshutts1]

I have legit never heard ANYONE say posting up was harder today.