3ball is the GOAT Lebron stan!

[KirbyPls]

The only players 3ball consistently compares Lebron to are,...wait for it...

1. The consensus (and I agree), GOAT, Michael Jordan; and

2. Kareem (the only player with an actual argument over MJ).

Thank you 3ball for acknowledging Lebron's place in the circle. :applause:

[sd3035]

The only players 3ball consistently compares Lebron to are,...wait for it...

1. The consensus (and I agree), GOAT, Michael Jordan; and

2. Kareem (the only player with an actual argument over MJ).

Thank you 3ball for acknowledging Lebron's place in the circle. :applause:


3 would be a triangle

[KirbyPls]

3 would be a triangle

I have put off getting my chip; needles scare me.

[3ball]

The only players 3ball consistently compares Lebron to are,...wait for it...

1. The consensus (and I agree), GOAT, Michael Jordan; and

2. Kareem (the only player with an actual argument over MJ).

Thank you 3ball for acknowledging Lebron's place in the circle. :applause:


Nah, not at all... I simply don't believe most of you guys know enough about the game to understand WHY Lebron's stats are so much worse than MJ's.

Most of you guys chalk it up to the ridiculous notion that it's harder to score in the NBA today, despite the spacing and bans on hand-checking and paint-camping.. Of course, the stats say nothing's changed - in the last 10 years, ORtg and DRtg have been exactly the same as the 90's.

Heck, just looking at the spacing - everyone knows it's easier to score WITH spacing than without... Without 3-point shooting, previous eras didn't have weakside floor-spreaders to bring defenders away from the strongside, and therefore faced more defenders on the strongside (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11338354&postcount=11) than today's player.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Nah, not at all... I simply don't believe most of you guys know enough about the game to understand WHY Lebron's stats are so much worse than MJ's.

Most of you guys chalk it up to the ridiculous notion that it's harder to score in the NBA today, despite the spacing and bans on hand-checking and paint-camping.. Of course, the stats say nothing's changed - in the last 10 years, ORtg and DRtg have been exactly the same as the 90's.

Heck, just looking at the spacing - everyone knows it's easier to score WITH spacing than without... Without 3-point shooting, previous eras didn't have weakside floor-spreaders to bring defenders away from the strongside, and therefore faced more defenders on the strongside (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11338354&postcount=11) than today's player.


So you cite OFF and DEF Rating in Jordan vs LeBron debates but act stupid when it comes to Jordan vs Kobe. :roll:

[KirbyPls]

Nah, not at all... I simply don't believe most of you guys know enough about the game to understand WHY Lebron's stats are so much worse than MJ's.

Most of you guys chalk it up to the ridiculous notion that it's harder to score in the NBA today, despite the spacing and bans on hand-checking and paint-camping.. Of course, the stats say nothing's changed - in the last 10 years, ORtg and DRtg have been exactly the same as the 90's.

Heck, just looking at the spacing - everyone knows it's easier to score WITH spacing than without... Without 3-point shooting, previous eras didn't have weakside floor-spreaders to bring defenders away from the strongside, and therefore faced more defenders on the strongside (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11338354&postcount=11) than today's player.

3ball, I appreciate your posts, since I like numbers. But, I am 34, and well aware of MJ, his numbers, eye test, clutch stats and general career. Lebron, like your MJ, is my favorite player ever, but I entertain no delusions: MJ was better than LBJ will ever be. I just enjoy that the only player you can throw shade on Lebron with also happens to be the greatest basketball player in the history of the pursuit. You once bothered me, but your constant comparison of the two players, helps reinforce/appreciate both guys (in their respective hierarchy), as amazing players in the game. It's really that simple. I just wish you could own up to the fact that Lebron has merited your incessant critique as a player in the league. :applause:

[nzahir]

3 would be a triangle
Confirmed illuminati

[3ball]

3ball, I appreciate your posts, since I like numbers. But, I am 34, and well aware of MJ, his numbers, eye test, clutch stats and general career. Lebron, like your MJ, is my favorite player ever, but I entertain no delusions: MJ was better than LBJ will ever be. I just enjoy that the only player you can throw shade on Lebron with also happens to be the greatest basketball player in the history of the pursuit. You once bothered me, but your constant comparison of the two players, helps reinforce/appreciate both guys (in their respective hierarchy), as amazing players in the game. It's really that simple. I just wish you could own up to the fact that Lebron has merited your incessant critique as a player in the league. :applause:


It's not as complicated as you say - Lebron's softness and inferiority compared to MJ has it's roots in the different brand of basketball currently being played - indeed, invoking Lebron-MJ comparison simply shows the inferiority of this era better than anything.. :confusedshrug:
.

[KirbyPls]

It's not as complicated as you say - Lebron's softness and inferiority compared to MJ has it's roots in the different brand of basketball currently being played - indeed, invoking Lebron-MJ comparison simply shows the inferiority of this era better than anything.. :confusedshrug:
.

So you don't deny that lebron is a player in the league? Checkmate, Lebron stan! :pimp:

[3ball]

So you cite OFF and DEF Rating in Jordan vs LeBron debates but act stupid when it comes to Jordan vs Kobe.


MJ's 2nd three-peat (1996-1998) had lower league-wide DRtg in both the regular season and playoffs than Kobe's non-Shaq championship years (2008-2010):


League-Wide DRtg in Regular Season:


1996: 107.6
1997: 106.7
1998: 105.0

2008: 107.5
2009: 108.3
2010: 107.6

Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html


League-Wide DRtg in Playoffs (each year is link to source):

1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997.html#all_misc_stats): 106.8
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998.html#all_misc_stats): 105.6

2008 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
2009 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2009.html#all_misc_stats): 107.7
2010 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010.html#all_misc_stats): 108.6



The above shows that MJ faced lower DRtg defenses during his 2nd three-peat than Kobe did during his non-Shaq championship years (2008-2010) - but despite facing lower DRtg defenses, MJ still put up better stats:


REGULAR SEASON - 1996-1998 vs. 2008-2010

MJ..... 29.6 PPG, 48.2% FG, 2 MVP, schooled Kobe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365450)
Kobe.. 27.4 PPG, 46.1% FG, 1 MVP, no schooling, literally


PLAYOFFS:

MJ..... 31.4 PPG, 45.9% FG, beat Malone and Shaq
Kobe.. 29.8 PPG, 46.4% FG, free of being 2nd fiddle to Shaq


FINALS

MJ..... 31.1 PPG, 43.4% FG, 3 FMVP, GOAT clutch
Kobe.. 29.2 PPG, 41.3% FG, 2 FMVP

Source: basketball-reference.com


At 33-35 years old, MJ had better stats against better defenses than 29-31 year-old Kobe..

Also, 1998 Utah had a lower DRtg in the playoffs (100.3) than anything Kobe ever faced as the #1 option (post-Shaq).. So as the #1 option, it was JORDAN who faced the toughest defense from an individual team, not Kobe.. Of course, this is no surprise, since the stats above show MJ faced the lower league-wide DRtg in both the regular season and playoffs.

Imagine if we DIDN'T give Kobe a head start and actually peak at MJ's prime instead of his old man stats??.. Better not.. :facepalm .. It's amazing how much better MJ was than Kobe.. :bowdown:
.

[I<3NBA]

Thank you 3ball. We know Kobe would be ringless if he actually played during MJ's reign.

No worries about Lebron. We all know he'd find a way to join MJ.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

MJ's 2nd three-peat (1996-1998) had lower league-wide DRtg in both the regular season and playoffs than Kobe's non-Shaq championship years (2008-2010):


League-Wide DRtg in Regular Season:


1996: 107.6
1997: 106.7
1998: 105.0

2008: 107.5
2009: 108.3
2010: 107.6

Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html


League-Wide DRtg in Playoffs (each year is link to source):

1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997.html#all_misc_stats): 106.8
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998.html#all_misc_stats): 105.6

2008 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2008.html#all_misc_stats): 107.4
2009 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2009.html#all_misc_stats): 107.7
2010 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010.html#all_misc_stats): 108.6



The above shows that MJ faced lower DRtg defenses during his 2nd three-peat than Kobe did during his non-Shaq championship years (2008-2010) - but despite facing lower DRtg defenses, MJ still put up better stats:


REGULAR SEASON - 1996-1998 vs. 2008-2010

MJ..... 29.6 PPG, 48.2% FG, 2 MVP, schooled Kobe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365450)
Kobe.. 27.4 PPG, 46.1% FG, 1 MVP, no schooling, literally


PLAYOFFS:

MJ..... 31.4 PPG, 45.9% FG, beat Malone and Shaq
Kobe.. 29.8 PPG, 46.4% FG, free of being 2nd fiddle to Shaq


FINALS

MJ..... 31.1 PPG, 43.4% FG, 3 FMVP, GOAT clutch
Kobe.. 29.2 PPG, 41.3% FG, 2 FMVP

Source: basketball-reference.com


At 33-35 years old, MJ had better stats against better defenses than 29-31 year-old Kobe..

Also, 1998 Utah had a lower DRtg in the playoffs (100.3) than anything Kobe ever faced as the #1 option (post-Shaq).. So as the #1 option, it was JORDAN who faced the toughest defense from an individual team, not Kobe.. Of course, this is no surprise, since the stats above show MJ faced the lower league-wide DRtg in both the regular season and playoffs.

Imagine if we DIDN'T give Kobe a head start and actually peak at MJ's prime instead of his old man stats??.. Better not.. :facepalm .. It's amazing how much better MJ was than Kobe.. :bowdown:
.

Yikes ... I feel your pain.

A whole lot of mental gymnastics going on.

- Why wouldn't you list TS%?

- MVPs are not a statistic impacted by defensive efficiency

-Why would we use playoff def rating to and not regular season def rating? Which is a more accurate representation of their defensive ability? An 82 game sample size or a potential 3 game series vs one team?

- What does #1 option mean if we ignore the fact Kobe shot more and scored more during several playoff series with Shaq still on the team?

If Jordan or Kobe faced the best defense in the league (based on the prior 82 games) in the first round of the playoffs and shredded them along with the rest of the team anyway would it make sense to consider that team a terrible defensive team since it would end up with a high playoff defensive rating. Or would it make more sense to consider it an amazingly good performance against a great defense.

:confusedshrug: