Lebron proves the "efficiency" argument has little credibility without context.

[nathanjizzle]

Lebron is shooting 41 percent, while playing an aggressive style that basketball fans like to see from him. And his team is up 3-2 when they should be losing. Imagine if Lebron played his passive efficient style like he did in game 1 where they got butchered, the series would have been over for the cavs already.

[Lebron23]

What???


Lebron is averaging 28.4 ppg on 42 FG% vs. Chicago Bulls.

[ISHGoat]

Derricks career playoff fg% is 40%. Imagine he didn't shit the bed every year in the playoffs and shot regular season average of ~45. That's an extra bucket a game. Look at how many of these playoff games are decided by one bucket.

Now tell me efficiency is overrated

[3ball]

Now tell me efficiency is overrated


How do you think the Cavs would be doing in this series if Lebron was shooting 56% but only taking 17 FGA per game, instead of the 25 FGA he is currently taking?

[Real Men Wear Green]

James is inefficient because the Bulls have a great man defender on him, a great defensive big waiting for him in the paint, and have the greatest defensive coach scheming how to stop him. They were supposedly a little down this season defensively (lazily I'm not looking up stats again) but they have the personnel to make life difficult for any star. So James's stats should be viewed with Chi's defensive greatness in mind. The Cavs have the edge right now because they have been defending just as hard, Rose still can't bring it consistently and Gasol missed a few games.

[Lebron23]

James is inefficient because the Bulls have a great man defender on him, a great defensive big waiting for him in the paint, and have the greatest defensive coach scheming how to stop him. They were supposedly a little down this season defensively (lazily I'm not looking up stats again) but they have the personnel to make life difficult for any star. So James's stats should be viewed with Chi's defensive greatness in mind. The Cavs have the edge right now because they have been defending just as hard, Rose still can't bring it consistently and Gasol missed a few games.


Best posts so far in this thread. Bulls are a very good defensive team. And Even when James played in Miami. He had under 44% against Chicago.

[DMAVS41]

Lebron is shooting 39 percent, while playing an aggressive style that basketball fans like to see from him. And his team is up 3-2 when they should be losing. Imagine if Lebron played his passive efficient style like he did in game 1 where they got butchered, the series would have been over for the cavs already.

Nah... His first 4 games were trash... Just lucky he plays in a joke conference against a really poor playoff team through 5 games.

Also, Lebron is one of the most versatile players ever.... Perhaps the most. He can defend, rebound, and pass at all time elite levels when he wants to...so efficiency isn't as important for him as most other scorers.

Assuming this is about Rose....Rose can't do half the stuff Lebron does.... So his efficiency matters way more.

Scoring guards that make no off ball impact on offens really need to score efficiently and not shoot 7-24 in huge games.

And your numbers are wrong...

[nathanjizzle]

How do you think the Cavs would be doing in this series if Lebron was shooting 56% but only taking 17 FGA per game, instead of the 25 FGA he is currently taking?

the cavs would be outed already if he wasnt this aggressive on offense.


13-29
10-30
8-25
14-24
9-22

54 130 41.5%

[3ball]

So James's stats should be viewed with Chi's defensive greatness in mind.


This is factually incorrect, and the opposite of the truth... In this series, the Bulls DRtg is a horrific 111, and the Cavs is 108 (link to data below)..

The Cavs and Bulls are scoring 97 and 94 PPG respectively, despite playing at a snail-pace of 87.5

So you're wrong - the reason Lebron is shooting poorly has nothing to do with defense - based on the defense alone, Lebron should be shooting excellently, because the defense is bad.. The REAL reason he is shooting poorly is very obvious - he is shooting 27 times per game, which he is not accustomed to... the more FGA you have per game, the lower your FG% will be - this is a FACT

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015_ECS_CHI-CLE.html

[ISHGoat]

How do you think the Cavs would be doing in this series if Lebron was shooting 56% but only taking 17 FGA per game, instead of the 25 FGA he is currently taking?

That depends on whether his teammates are making shots, and fg% by itself isnt enough, we need to know ts%.

Right now lets simply it to these two scenarios:

a. 30ppg on 25 fga (current)

b. 25 ppg on 17 fga (lebron standard)

basically, he is taking 7 more field goals to get you 5 points.

i say give those 7 attempts to other players, theyd probably get more than 5 points. its all about points per posession.

[blablabla]

That depends on whether his teammates are making shots, and fg% by itself isnt enough, we need to know ts%.

Right now lets simply it to these two scenarios:

a. 30ppg on 25 fga (current)

b. 25 ppg on 17 fga (lebron standard)

basically, he is taking 7 more field goals to get you 5 points.

i say give those 7 attempts to other players, theyd probably get more than 5 points. its all about points per posession.
lol you ever played basketball fam

[ISHGoat]

lol you ever played basketball fam

bro i just hooped last night at my condo's gym

i got rekt by a fat brown dude, he want ray allen on me everytime i guarded him

[aj1987]

Nah... His first 4 games were trash... Just lucky he plays in a joke conference against a really poor playoff team through 5 games.

How do you people still not get it? Even if there was NO conference system, only ONE EC team would be replaced by a WC team. Only the Nets would've been replaced by the Thunder. The Cav's are still going through pretty decent teams. A good (in the PO's at least) defensive team in the Bulls and the #2 seed in the league (if the make the ECF).

Also, the WC teams are stacked AF. You just can't compare them because EC teams and WC teams aren't built similarly.

[3ball]

Right now lets simply it to these two scenarios:

a. 30ppg on 25 fga (current)

b. 25 ppg on 17 fga (lebron standard)

basically, he is taking 7 more field goals to get you 5 points.

i say give those 7 attempts to other players, theyd probably get more than 5 points. its all about points per posession.


it's not that simple.. players aren't programmable robots, where if Lebron doesn't shoot, another player is GUARANTEED to get a decent look... Most of those 7 extra shots are the best shot available.

also, when lebron shoots at a 17 FGA frequency as opposed to 25 FGA frequency, the defense doesn't have to come off his teammates as much.. Teams and players aren't dumb - if they see a guy not being as aggressive, they will pay less attention to him and stay at home.

finally, there is no stat for this, but i would bet my life that when the #1 option is gunning (very high shot frequency), the offensive rebounding rate on those shots is significantly higher than any other player - when the star player is shooting at a high frequency, the supporting cast learns to anticipate his movements and when the shot is going up - i know this from experience being a role player alongside star players who had all the plays run for them - as a role player, you learn to get in position to rebound their shots.. I'd be willing to bet that there is a positive correlation between star player FG attempts and the team's offensive rebounding rate.
.

[Real Men Wear Green]

This is factually incorrect, and the opposite of the truth... In this series, the Bulls DRtg is a horrific 111, and the Cavs is 108 (link to data below)..

The Cavs and Bulls are scoring 97 and 94 PPG respectively, despite playing at a snail-pace of 87.5

So you're wrong - the reason Lebron is shooting poorly has nothing to do with defense - based on the defense alone, Lebron should be shooting excellently, because the defense is bad.. The REAL reason he is shooting poorly is very obvious - he is shooting 27 times per game, which he is not accustomed to... the more FGA you have per game, the lower your FG% will be - this is a FACT

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015_ECS_CHI-CLE.html
The Cavs are shooting 43% overall. The Cavs' top two scorers are shooting 41.5% ond 40.8% respectively. Jimmy Butler, one of the best defensive wings in the game, is James' primary defender, and Joakim Noah, the reigning DPoY and perennial member of the All-D team is protecting the basket. But somehow the struggles of the best player in the game have nothing to do with the defense.

By the way, I counted 2 versions of this post that you deleted before you left the turd on the floor.

[3ball]

The Cavs are shooting 43% overall. The Cavs' top two scorers are shooting 41.5% ond 40.8% respectively. Jimmy Butler, one of the best defensive wings in the game, is James' primary defender, and Joakim Noah, the reigning DPoY and perennial member of the All-D team is protecting the basket. But somehow the struggles of the best player in the game have nothing to do with the defense.

By the way, I counted 2 versions of this post that you deleted before you left the turd on the floor.


The above is your own narrative on why the Bulls are playing good defense..

The FACTS are that the bulls are allowing 111 points per 100 possession.. In no universe is that anything but BAD defense.

There's no other way to describe it... it is what it is.

[sd3035]

That depends on whether his teammates are making shots, and fg% by itself isnt enough, we need to know ts%.

Right now lets simply it to these two scenarios:

a. 30ppg on 25 fga (current)

b. 25 ppg on 17 fga (lebron standard)

basically, he is taking 7 more field goals to get you 5 points.

i say give those 7 attempts to other players, theyd probably get more than 5 points. its all about points per posession.

It takes a special type of retard to not know simple subtraction like 25 - 17 :facepalm

[Real Men Wear Green]

The above is your own narrative on why the Bulls are playing good defense..

The FACTS are that the bulls are allowing 111 points per 100 possession.. In no universe is that anything but BAD defense.

There's no other way to describe it... it is what it is.
So the Cavs shooting 43% is somehow my made-up "narrative?" That's a fact just like James's individual numbers being inefficient is a fact. Also a fact that Butler is a great man defender on wings and Joakim Noah being reigning DPoY is a "fact." You have no point.

[ISHGoat]

it's not that simple.. players aren't programmable robots, where if Lebron doesn't shoot, another player is GUARANTEED to get a decent look... Most of those 7 extra shots are the best shot available.

also, when lebron shoots at a 17 FGA frequency as opposed to 27 FGA frequency, the defense doesn't have to come off his teammates as much.. Teams and players aren't dumb - if they see a guy not being as aggressive, they will pay less attention to him and stay at home.

finally, there is no stat for this, but i would bet my life that when the #1 option is gunning (very high shot frequency), the offensive rebounding rate on those shots is significantly higher than any other player - when the star player is shooting at a high frequency, the supporting cast learns to anticipate his movements and when the shot is going up - i know this from experience being a role player alongside star players who had all the plays run for them - as a role player, you learn to get in position to rebound their shots.. I'd be willing to bet that there is a positive correlation between star player FG attempts and the team's offensive rebounding rate.

Those 7 extra shots obviously arent guaranteed to be great looks, but 5 points on 7 is like 70points/100. Im willing to bet that on average, if lebron identified and eliminated the 5 worst looks he had every game and dished it off, the cavs would net more than 70 per 100. As you said earlier, cavs are getting like 111 per 100. This is basically what miami lebron did, and you cant deny that it worked well. Efficiency ball works. Even a catch and shoot 3pter with the shotclock running down goes in like 25% of the time, good for 75 per 100. 70 per 100 is like deandre jordan shooting 35% at the line, which is just terrible offense no matter how you spin it.

Now the second issue of defenders at 17 FGA vs 27 FGA is harder to quantify, but generally you are right. However, Im willing to hypothesize that it doesnt really matter how aggressive lebron is, the other team will always key in on him roughly the same. Are you telling me that if lebron had a passive night and only shot 10 times, on the 11th shot the defenders will be guarding him differently than if it was the 31st shot? Id say your statement is true for role players, but for a star player like lebron, the defense is always going 100% at him.

your third point is true, years of watching kobe has confirmed this

[DMAVS41]

How do you people still not get it? Even if there was NO conference system, only ONE EC team would be replaced by a WC team. Only the Nets would've been replaced by the Thunder. The Cav's are still going through pretty decent teams. A good (in the PO's at least) defensive team in the Bulls and the #2 seed in the league (if the make the ECF).

Also, the WC teams are stacked AF. You just can't compare them because EC teams and WC teams aren't built similarly.

And you would seed accordingly... So we wouldn't be stuck watching these crappy teams beyond the first round.

How do you not get that?

[3ball]

So the Cavs shooting 43% is somehow my made-up "narrative?" That's a fact just like James's individual numbers being inefficient is a fact. Also a fact that Butler is a great man defender on wings and Joakim Noah being reigning DPoY is a "fact." You have no point.


111 DRtg for the Bulls - that's horrible defense and always will be.. But keep thinking FG% is the only aspect of defense.

Also, Lebron is wildly inefficient in this series because he's taking 8 more shots per game.

If you can't understand that, then let's just drop it.. Seriously.. I'm done going back and forth with clueless fans who just want to create excuses and ignore the obvious.

[aj1987]

And you would seed accordingly... So we wouldn't be stuck watching these crappy teams beyond the first round.

How do you not get that?
What crappy teams? The Bulls, Cav's, Wiz (minus Wall breaking his wrist in 5 places), and Hawks are all good teams.

[DMAVS41]

What crappy teams? The Bulls, Cav's, Wiz (minus Wall breaking his wrist in 5 places), and Hawks are all good teams.

Only one of those teams is a sure fire top 8 team... And yes the Bulls/Wizards are crappy teams right now.

[tpols]

That depends on whether his teammates are making shots, and fg% by itself isnt enough, we need to know ts%.

Right now lets simply it to these two scenarios:

a. 30ppg on 25 fga (current)

b. 25 ppg on 17 fga (lebron standard)

basically, he is taking 7 more field goals to get you 5 points.

i say give those 7 attempts to other players, theyd probably get more than 5 points. its all about points per posession.

Uh.. no because if he wasn't constantly attacking the defense his teammates wouldn't be getting freed up as much as they are. If he cherry picked and played passive.. his line would look better.. but he's shooters wouldn't be as open.. his offensive reboundera would face more boxing out.. everyone else would start to suffer and cavs would get spanked.

[r15mohd]

And you would seed accordingly... So we wouldn't be stuck watching these crappy teams beyond the first round.

How do you not get that?

seeding of 16 only replaces the Wiz with the Spurs from the 1st round as the Grizz would beat the Wiz and the Spurs would beat Toronto instead of facing the Clippers and being eliminated. every other team makes it to the 2nd round, as they are now.

and no, the Mavs DO NOT beat the Cavs in the 1st round, either :rolleyes:

[Straight_Ballin]

3ball pouring on the ether and educating as usual.

[Real Men Wear Green]

111 DRtg for the Bulls - that's horrible defense and always will be.. But keep thinking FG% is the only aspect of defense.

Also, Lebron is wildly inefficient in this series because he's taking 8 more shots per game.

If you can't understand that, then let's just drop it.. Seriously.. I'm done going back and forth with clueless fans who just want to create excuses and ignore the obvious.
lol at you ignoring Butler, the DPoY, what Thibodeau's coaching has done for years and how the overall team is shooting over 8 shots per game. Like James performance has nothing to do with the defense he faces. Yeah, you can stop replying.

[3ball]

Efficiency ball works.


not against good teams.. only against ordinary teams.

do you realize the Heat shot FAR better against the Spurs in the 2014 Finals than any Spurs playoff opponent, yet the Heat lost far WORSE?

the Heat lost worse than anyone else, despite shooting 53.7 eFG%, compared to 50.0% for Dallas, 48.4% for OKC, and 45.8% for Portland.





Are you telling me that if lebron had a passive night and only shot 10 times, on the 11th shot the defenders will be guarding him differently than if it was the 31st shot?


**** yes.. just listen to what you just wrote.. Seriously, I would never coach if I were you.. not so much for your well-being - you'll get a lot out of it.. but for the sake of your players and the team

[DMAVS41]

seeding of 16 only replaces the Wiz with the Spurs from the 1st round as the Grizz would beat the Wiz and the Spurs would beat Toronto instead of facing the Clippers and being eliminated. every other team makes it to the 2nd round, as they are now.

and no, the Mavs DO NOT beat the Cavs in the 1st round, either :rolleyes:

we don't know what would or wouldn't happen

The teams getting there would actually have to earn it.

But I'd say I'd find it very unlikely that any of the remaining East teams could beat the top 5 in the West right now.

[tpols]

lol at you ignoring Butler, the DPoY, what Thibodeau's coaching has done for years and how the overall team is shooting over 8 shots per game. Like James performance has nothing to do with the defense he faces. Yeah, you can stop replying.

noahs been ass.. yea the bulls and Jimmy butler specifically have been a reason for decrease in fg.. but so has the fact brons had to take way more shots.. there's a very strong correlation between decreasing efficiency and increased shot att3mpts.

All the "efficiency kings".. guys like barkley, dirk, reggie dantley.. you'll notice all took sub 20 shots per game.. You'll be hard pressed to find scorers who score with great efficiency on 25+ attempts per game

[3ball]

You'll be hard pressed to find scorers who score with great efficiency on 25+ attempts per game


Michael Jordan's career playoff average FGA: 25.1

Michael Jordan's career playoff FG%: 48.7%

I wasn't hard-pressed at all.. :confusedshrug:

Btw, i always laugh when i think of Noah winning DPOY - in any previous era, he'd be ordinary.. Not sure he'd ever make an all-defensive team.
.

[DMAVS41]

not against good teams.. only against ordinary teams.

do you realize the Heat shot FAR better against the Spurs in the 2014 Finals than any Spurs playoff opponent, yet the Heat lost far WORSE?

the Heat lost worse than anyone else, despite shooting 53.7 eFG%, compared to 50.0% for Dallas, 48.4% for OKC, and 45.8% for Portland.



**** yes.. just listen to what you just wrote.. Seriously, I would never coach if I were you.. not so much for your well-being - you'll get a lot out of it.. but for the sake of your players and the team

Because the Heats defense was horrid and the Spurs caught fire. Did you seriously just only post half the equation expecting it to mean something?

[r15mohd]

we don't know what would or wouldn't happen

The teams getting there would actually have to earn it.

But I'd say I'd find it very unlikely that any of the remaining East teams could beat the top 5 in the West right now.

wtf are you talking about. have you ever listed out the seeding to see what would be the 2nd round matchups? if the teams went in as they did, the only difference is the Spurs in the 2nd round instead of the Wiz. the finals could be potentially the most boring Finals, as well, the Grizz vs Spurs :facepalm

1-GSW
16-Celtics

9-Bulls
8-Blazers

5-Clippers
13-Pelicans

12-Wiz
5-Grizz

2-Hawks
15-Bucks

10-Mavs
7-Cavs

3-Rockets
14-OKC

11-Raps
6-Spurs

[tpols]

Michael Jordan's career playoff average FGA: 25.1

Michael Jordan's career playoff FG%: 48.7%

I wasn't hard-pressed at all.. :confusedshrug:

Btw, i always laugh when i think of Noah winning DPOY - in any previous era, he'd be ordinary.. Not sure he'd ever make an all-defensive team.
.

So I say you'll be hard pressed to find a player who scores efficient on 25 shots per game... and you disprove that by listing the GOAT of the sport....:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

wtf are you talking about. have you ever listed out the seeding to see what would be the 2nd round matchups? if the teams went in as they did, the only difference is the Spurs in the 2nd round instead of the Wiz. the finals could be potentially the most boring Finals, as well, the Grizz vs Spurs :facepalm

1-GSW
16-Celtics

9-Bulls
8-Blazers

5-Clippers
13-Pelicans

12-Wiz
5-Grizz

2-Hawks
15-Bucks

10-Mavs
7-Cavs

3-Rockets
14-OKC

11-Raps
6-Spurs

And teams would earn it. I'd have no problem with anything on that front.

[r15mohd]

Because the Heats defense was horrid and the Spurs caught fire. Did you seriously just only post half the equation expecting it to mean something?


were you expecting more? :lol :lol :lol it is 3Ball after all, he's becoming more delusional than you with the 2011 Heat being the best Heat squad ever :D

[aj1987]

we don't know what would or wouldn't happen

The teams getting there would actually have to earn it.

But I'd say I'd find it very unlikely that any of the remaining East teams could beat the top 5 in the West right now.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

The Rockets are hot garbage. The Grizzlies are not far behind with their D-League offense. The only two good WC teams right now are the Warriors and the Clippers. The Hawks and Cav's could arguably beat both those teams. Lets not act like those two teams are on another level.

[DMAVS41]

were you expecting more? :lol :lol :lol it is 3Ball after all, he's becoming more delusional than you with the 2011 Heat being the best Heat squad ever :D

You don't want to go there... You lose the debate every time.

And I said 11 or 12.... Hard to factor in the Bosh injury.


But the 13 and 14 Heat are 2 of the most overrated teams of this era.

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

The Rockets are hot garbage. The Grizzlies are not far behind with their D-League offense. The only two good WC teams right now are the Warriors and the Clippers. The Hawks and Cav's could arguably beat both those teams. Lets not act like those two teams are on another level.

Stop it. Do you watch basketball at all? The Rockets would murder all these East teams right now. The only legit teams in the East are the Hawks and Cavs...and both would lose to the Rockets in their current state.

[Real Men Wear Green]

noahs been ass.. yea the bulls and Jimmy butler specifically have been a reason for decrease in fg.. but so has the fact brons had to take way more shots.. there's a very strong correlation between decreasing efficiency and increased shot att3mpts.

All the "efficiency kings".. guys like barkley, dirk, reggie dantley.. you'll notice all took sub 20 shots per game.. You'll be hard pressed to find scorers who score with great efficiency on 25+ attempts per gameNoah's struggled offensively but he's still a defensive presence. The extra shots per game has an effect but the fact that the Bulls have generally succeeded in making it hard to attack the basket, which is by far the strongest part of James's offensive game, and instead have him shooting a lot of jumpers hurts. And that is by design.

[r15mohd]

And teams would earn it. I'd have no problem with anything on that front.

that's subjective. i mean instead of a 7game Clips/Spurs thriller, we get to see maybe a 4-2 Cavs over the Mavs, Bulls/Blazer going 6-7 games? all the other matchups are 4-1 finishes at most.

2nd round wouldnt be that much exciting either, definitely not to what we've seen so far. GSW walks over the Bulls, Spurs take care of the Rockets, Cavs vs ATL excite you? only real treat is the Clippers/Grizz.

overall semis will be pretty nice though...GSW vs Grizz and Cavs vs Spurs. and again, we could potentially see the most slow-paced Finals to date, Grizz vs Spurs. lol

it's certainly been very entertaining the way it is now with the east vs west, dont think the same with the 1-16 seeding this year.

[gts]

Lebron is doing just fine... he's playing the way he needs to play for the Cavs to win


Tat being said i find it absolutely hilarious how after Lebron stans held his efficiency/fg% numbers like some holy grail now that they've dipped the excuses for his play are the exact same ones they use to poo poo when being mentioned for other players :lol

[DMAVS41]

that's subjective. i mean instead of a 7game Clips/Spurs thriller, we get to see maybe a 4-2 Cavs over the Mavs, Bulls/Blazer going 6-7 games? all the other matchups are 4-1 finishes at most.

2nd round wouldnt be that much exciting either, definitely not to what we've seen so far. GSW walks over the Bulls, Spurs take care of the Rockets, Cavs vs ATL excite you? only real treat is the Clippers/Grizz.

overall semis will be pretty nice though...GSW vs Grizz and Cavs vs Spurs. and again, we could potentially see the most slow-paced Finals to date, Grizz vs Spurs. lol

it's certainly been very entertaining the way it is now with the east vs west, dont think the same with the 1-16 seeding this year.

You can't only look at 1 year. That's way too narrow.

And not putting Clips vs Spurs in the first round is worth just about anything. 2 of the 3 best teams in the league shouldn't play in the first round.... It's just stupid

[r15mohd]

You don't want to go there... You lose the debate every time.

And I said 11 or 12.... Hard to factor in the Bosh injury.


But the 13 and 14 Heat are 2 of the most overrated teams of this era.


the Heat with a 27-game win streak, the MVP of the league, takes out the toughest defense in the Pacers that year and wins the title...yet overrated? i take it back...3Ball will NEVER be as delusional as you :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DMAVS41]

the Heat with a 27-game win streak, the MVP of the league, takes out the toughest defense in the Pacers that year and wins the title...yet overrated? i take it back...3Ball will NEVER be as delusional as you :roll: :roll: :roll:

They were a shell of the team you speak of in the playoffs. God damn you are so stupid.

[aj1987]

Stop it. Do you watch basketball at all? The Rockets would murder all these East teams right now. The only legit teams in the East are the Hawks and Cavs...and both would lose to the Rockets in their current state.
What?!?

:roll: @ the Cav's and Hawks losing to the pathetic Rockets. :facepalm

Butler would lock up Harden so bad that he'd probably quit playing basketball. Do YOU watch basketball? The EC games especially. Don't go off of drivel posted on message boards and boxscores.

[r15mohd]

They were a shell of the team you speak of in the playoffs. God damn you are so stupid.

shell of a team...:rolleyes: you only repeat this to prop up the Mavs 2011 title run. everyone knows it. do you really believe the 2011 Heat can beat the 2012 or 2013 Heat teams? do really seriously hold this a stance?

did you not see the garbage offense the Heat displayed based off talent alone with no direction? what about the lack-lusting defense, which again had little direction and based off talent only. a team with Arroyo, Bibby, Eddie House and Juwan Howard in rotation?

you have no credibility to this, just stop. you get credit for the Finals win but it's not like you defeated a powerhouse Miami squad, that came in 2012 and especially in 2013 and deflated by 2014.. :rolleyes:

[Hittin_Shots]

Stop it. Do you watch basketball at all? The Rockets would murder all these East teams right now. The only legit teams in the East are the Hawks and Cavs...and both would lose to the Rockets in their current state.

So if the team that comes out of the east manages to win the final do you have some fall back excuses ready?

[DMAVS41]

So if the team that comes out of the east manages to win the final do you have some fall back excuses ready?

I'll be shocked and admit I was wrong, but I guarantee they play way better ball than they are currently playing.

[3ball]

Because the Heats defense was horrid and the Spurs caught fire. Did you seriously just only post half the equation expecting it to mean something?


Bear with me here for a sec... Momentum is defined as when a player and/or team has an abnormal level of optimism, confidence and adrenaline - these things allow a player or team to get "hot"..

The most common way momentum begins for a team is when they score consecutive, unanswered buckets.. It's like a bully beating up some poor kid - the bully's grin gets wider and more intense with each successive, unanswered blow.

So back to the point - why did the Spurs catch fire ONLY on the Heat?.. Why not Dallas, Portland, or OKC too?

The stats tell the story - despite shooting far better than any Spurs opponent, the Heat scored far less ppg than any Spurs' opponent (only 91 PPG) - therefore, their ability to ANSWER the Spurs buckets and limit momentum was far worse than all other Spurs opponents.. THAT'S why the Spurs got hot ONLY against the Heat.

[DMAVS41]

What?!?

:roll: @ the Cav's and Hawks losing to the pathetic Rockets. :facepalm

Butler would lock up Harden so bad that he'd probably quit playing basketball. Do YOU watch basketball? The EC games especially. Don't go off of drivel posted on message boards and boxscores.

God...shut up.

The Bulls are about to lose to the Cavs with no Love, no JR for 2 games, injured Irving, and Lebron in a horrid shooting slump.

They aren't beating the Rockets on the road. GTFO...

[DMAVS41]

Bear with me here for a sec... Momentum is defined as when a player and/or team has an abnormal level of optimism, confidence and adrenaline - these things allow a player or team to get "hot"..

The most common way momentum begins for a team is when they score consecutive, unanswered buckets.. It's like a bully beating up some poor kid - the bully's grin gets wider and more intense with each successive, unanswered blow.

So back to the point - why did the Spurs catch fire ONLY on the Heat?.. Why not Dallas, Portland, or OKC too?

The stats tell the story - despite shooting far better than any Spurs opponent, the Heat scored far less ppg than any Spurs' opponent (only 91 PPG) - therefore, their ability to ANSWER the Spurs buckets and limit momentum was far worse than all other Spurs opponents.. THAT'S why the Spurs got hot ONLY against the Heat.

Nonsense

[tmacattack33]

Bad thread with faulty logic in the opening post, along with statistical evidence that doesn't really fit the dudes argument.

[Lebron23]

Bulls are the no.1 defensive team in the playoffs

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff/order/false/seasontype/3

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/defense-per-game

[Indian guy]

Jimmy Butler is certainly a great defender, but LeBron's horrendous efficiency in this series is pretty much self-inflicted. Anybody that bad at making shots which aren't layups/dunks is going to struggle. LeBron's career changed when he reworked his release/form pre-2009 and became a somewhat respectable shooter. From 06-08 he shot 31% on jump shots and his FG% in the playoffs hovered in the low 40's. From 09-14 he shot 39% on jump shots and his FG% was consistently around or over 50%. So far this postseason, he's shooting 31% on jump shots and his FG% is at .436. If LeBron was shooting his normal 39% on jump shots in these playoffs, his FG% would move up to 49%. I don't think the Bulls are doing anything different to prevent him from making his normal jumpers. LeBron just can't shoot right now.

[3ball]

Bulls are the no.1 defensive team in the playoffs

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff/order/false/seasontype/3

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/defense-per-game
That's due to their 92 DRtg against the Bucks.

But against the Cavs, the Bulls DRtg is a horrific 111, which is bad defense by ANY standard, and always will be.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015_ECS_CHI-CLE.html

[LBJ 23]

What a stupid thread. Efficiency matters that's a fact. And why is there the only scenario where Lebron is efficient and passive at the same time? 2 games ago when Lebron hit a gamewinner if Lebron's jumper was falling and he was more efficient throughout the game they don't need that gamewinner from him and Cavs win comfortably. Efficiency matters!

Another thing is that Lebron can afford to be less efficient on this Cavs team compared to Miami teams in the past because of the offensive rebounding. Thompson is a beast on the offensive end. Lebron finally has the luxury of playing with a true mobile 7 footer and another player who is great offensive rebounder. Some players had that for the majority of their careers that's why they could afford to be less efficient and had their team still winning. Second chance opportunities play a major role in this game.

[Lebron23]

Jimmy Butler is certainly a great defender, but LeBron's horrendous efficiency in this series is pretty much self-inflicted. Anybody that bad at making shots which aren't layups/dunks is going to struggle. LeBron's career changed when he reworked his release/form pre-2009 and became a somewhat respectable shooter. From 06-08 he shot 31% on jump shots and his FG% in the playoffs hovered in the low 40's. From 09-14 he shot 39% on jump shots and his FG% was consistently around or over 50%. So far this postseason, he's shooting 31% on jump shots and his FG% is at .436. If LeBron was shooting his normal 39% on jump shots in these playoffs, his FG% would move up to 49%. I don't think the Bulls are doing anything different to prevent him from making his normal jumpers. LeBron just can't shoot right now.


Great Posts. LeBron needs to attack the basket more often in Game 6. He was hitting his fade away jumpers in game 5.

[3ball]

Bear with me here for a sec... Momentum is defined as when a player and/or team has an abnormal level of optimism, confidence and adrenaline - these things allow a player or team to get "hot"..

The most common way momentum begins for a team is when they score consecutive, unanswered buckets.. It's like a bully beating up some poor kid - the bully's grin gets wider and more intense with each successive, unanswered blow.

So back to the point - why did the Spurs catch fire ONLY on the Heat?.. Why not Dallas, Portland, or OKC too?

The stats tell the story - despite shooting far better than any Spurs opponent, the Heat scored far less ppg than any Spurs' opponent (only 91 PPG) - therefore, their ability to ANSWER the Spurs buckets and limit momentum was far worse than all other Spurs opponents.. THAT'S why the Spurs got hot ONLY against the Heat.




Nonsense


not at all.. a team's offense affects their defense and vice versa.. it's quite intuitive actually.

there has to be reason the Spurs got hot ONLY against the Heat - it's not just coincidence - and that previous post is why.. The Heat's OFFENSE was the worst of any Spurs opponent, not just their defense, and the two affect each other.

[Indian guy]

PPG is such a retarded way to measure offensive effectiveness, since it doesn't account for pace. Miami actually had the highest ORTG of any of SA's opponents in the 2014 playoffs. They lost that series on defense.

[ILLsmak]

It's the Bulls.

The funny thing is they look stacked, but they are so bad. DRose is not good anymore. Noah is scared to shoot. Pau is injured... what else do they have? DUNLEAVY. Who is actually a monster lately, but he's not good enough to carry them.

Bron should just play hard and assume the Bulls can't beat them. He was mentally beating himself earlier plus some Bulls craziness. I would LIKE to see Cavs lose... cuz you know I'm tired of superteams, but I dunno if it happens vs the Bulls. Each new series provides new hope, but that Kyrie is injured, Bron is fluctuating between mentally weak and strong, and Love is out... and they can't capitalize is sad shit. The Cavs are so bad right now that I really think ATL or Wash could beat them IF they play right. I've given up on the Bulls.

-Smak

[DMAVS41]

not at all.. a team's offense affects their defense and vice versa.. it's quite intuitive actually.

there has to be reason the Spurs got hot ONLY against the Heat - it's not just coincidence - and that previous post is why.. The Heat's OFFENSE was the worst of any Spurs opponent, not just their defense, and the two affect each other.

It's a combination of many things. But don't sit here and tell me it was all the offense for the Heat.

In fact, all the evidence shows it's harder to score off made baskets.

The Heats turnovers impacted it, but usually high aggression leads to more turnovers.

[DMAVS41]

PPG is such a retarded way to measure offensive effectiveness, since it doesn't account for pace. Miami actually had the highest ORTG of any of SA's opponents in the 2014 playoffs. They lost that series on defense.

Yep

[Pointguard]

lol you ever played basketball fam
Keep watching. It gets a lot worse.

[ArbitraryWater]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

The Rockets are hot garbage. The Grizzlies are not far behind with their D-League offense. The only two good WC teams right now are the Warriors and the Clippers. The Hawks and Cav's could arguably beat both those teams. Lets not act like those two teams are on another level.

Lol at you facepalming, talking shit on 55-win teams in a historically good conference, that are battling top teams right now and both have won 2 games in the series already.

[aj1987]

God...shut up.

The Bulls are about to lose to the Cavs with no Love, no JR for 2 games, injured Irving, and Lebron in a horrid shooting slump.

They aren't beating the Rockets on the road. GTFO...
Not a shooting slump. Butler is an amazing defender. Oh, and the Cav's have freaking LeBron, who's averaging ~31/11/8/2/2. Basically a triple double with really good defense. Yeah, the bearded clown would get wrecked by the Bulls.

1. Warriors
2. Cavs
3. Clippers
4. Hawks
5/6. Rockets/Bulls
7. Grizzlies
8. Wizards


Lol at you facepalming, talking shit on 55-win teams in a historically good conference, that are battling top teams right now and both have won 2 games in the series already.
Why do you even post in the NBA forum? You're like 15 years old and started watching basketball (or should I say LeBron) 2 years ago. Go back to the OTC, fool.

EDIT: 40 posts a day over almost a year and a half? Yikes!

[pauk]

The main thing that is bottlenecking Lebron's efficiency/FG% is his uncharacteristic 3PT shooting this playoffs, ive never seen him shoot it that bad for such a long stretch.... he is 3 of 24 now (12.5%) against Bulls and 4 of 20 (20%) against Celtics, he is getting great looks from the 3PT line actually, many wideopen ones aswell, just not going in over and over and over... 7 of 44 in 3's..... its just amazing.... those are Shaq 3PT numbers....

If he shot at least 30% now from 3PT or his usual 33-40% his FG% he would be around 50% or over....

Except for that the Bulls have right now in playoffs the best wing defender with insane defense right behind him with all eyes on Lebron when he tries to drive (taking charges, rearranging him to shoot circus shots inside & stuff, fouling him if he is about to get an easy one), have to give them credit.... essentially everybodys FG% on that Cavs roster is having a tough time except for Tristan at 60% understandably as he gets nothing but alley-oops.

But still, its that damn 3PT% that is bottlenecking his FG% the most.

[r15mohd]

The main thing that is bottlenecking Lebron's efficiency/FG% is his uncharacteristic 3PT shooting this playoffs, ive never seen him shoot it that bad for such a long stretch.... he is 3 of 24 now (12.5%) against Bulls and 4 of 20 (20%) against Celtics, he is getting great looks from the 3PT line actually, many wideopen ones aswell, just not going in over and over and over... its just amazing.... those are Shaq 3PT numbers....

If he shot at least 30% now from 3PT or his usual 33-40% his FG% would be way higher.....

Except for that the Bulls have right now in playoffs the best wing defender with insane defense right behind him with all eyes on Lebron when he tries to drive (taking charges, rearranging him to shoot circus shots inside & stuff, fouling him if he is about to get an easy one), have to give them credit.... essentially everybodys FG% on that Cavs roster is having a tough time except for Tristan at 60% understandably as he gets nothing but alley-oops.

But still, its that damn 3PT% that is bottlenecking his FG% the most.


Tony Allen is the best wing defender right now
Butler is a close 2nd though

[pauk]

Tony Allen is the best wing defender right now
Butler is a close 2nd though

He is kindof injured tho + Allen was always unfortunately a massive mismatch for Lebron anyways, he is very quick to stay infront of him but always get ragdolled around in the post due to his size, he would always get the best of him.... Butler however is big & strong enough to be a much better Lebron stopper...

I freakin love Allen, i think he is the best SG/PG stopper and 99% of the SFs he handles great aswell except for that 1% or even 0.01% (Lebron) that are as massive as Karl Malone or Blake Griffin.... thats what Lebron is, he just so happens to have the quickness,coordination & ballcontrol/handles + jumpshot/passing/vision to play the perimeter....

[Pointguard]

Also, Lebron is one of the most versatile players ever.... Perhaps the most. He can defend, rebound, and pass at all time elite levels when he wants to...so efficiency isn't as important for him as most other scorers.
This has nothing to do with the topic at all. The topic is aggression vs efficiency.



Assuming this is about Rose....Rose can't do half the stuff Lebron does.... So his efficiency matters way more.

Scoring guards that make no off ball impact on offens really need to score efficiently and not shoot 7-24 in huge game..

Versatility has nothing to do with this at all. Paul is the most versatile pg there is and last year he was the most efficient by a pretty big margin and he played another pg who was the best player on his team. Brook was more aggressive, plain and simple. What's your excuse now?

[Legends66NBA7]

Bulls are the no.1 defensive team in the playoffs

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff/order/false/seasontype/3

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/defense-per-game

It's misleading, considering they have faced 2 injured squads.

[Pointguard]

It's misleading, considering they have faced 2 injured squads.
Rose obviously doesn't have his wind yet, and the haters dont consider that Either.

[DMAVS41]

This has nothing to do with the topic at all. The topic is aggression vs efficiency.


Versatility has nothing to do with this at all. Paul is the most versatile pg there is and last year he was the most efficient by a pretty big margin and he played another pg who was the best player on his team. Brook was more aggressive, plain and simple. What's your excuse now?

Actually it does.

The better you are outside of scoring... The less that scoring and scoring efficiency matters.

Hence why Lebron is s terrible example of this because he can be elite in pretty much all aspects of the game outside of off ball impact.

Of course context matters.... Problem is that you Rose fans don't know how to use it.

This series is also a bad example because the Bulls suck right now. The Cavs would likely be at home right now if they were playing out West. Maybe the Bulls get it together, but they've looked really poor in the playoffs so far.

[Solefade]

lebron's fg% isn't that high against the bulls in general in his career..but he's actually just missing a lot of shots whether it's good defense or not

[LBJ 23]

This Bulls series and Boston(to a degree) are like OKC Finals in 2012. Lebron back then also shot for shit but overall he played really good. And his turnovers are up but that has been a problem for him for the whole season.

[34-24 Footwork]

What don't Bran stans understand?

2014 finals- Gets his sh1t pushed worse than any team in playoff history while shooting nearly 60% (mostly cherry picked layups/dunks).

This series- Shooting about 40% but being aggressive offensively and they're up 3-2.

People that d1ck ride Bran don't understand basketball....just numbers. This goes for idiots like Reggie Miller/Sir Charles, too

[3ball]

Oh, and the Cav's have freaking LeBron, who's averaging ~31/11/8/2/2


He's averaging 28 PPG, not 31.. 28 PPG is his career playoff average.

Of course, the Bulls were only the 11th ranked defense in the regular season (104 DRtg) and they're currently putting up a horrific 111 DRtg against the Cavs in this series.. They're also allowing a very high 97 PPG relative to the 87.5 snail-pace.

So now that I think of it - anytime MJ was in these conditions, he averaged 40-45 PPG on 50-55% FG, end of story.

[aj1987]

He's averaging 28 PPG, not 31.. 28 PPG is his career playoff average.

Of course, the Bulls were only the 11th ranked defense in the regular season (104 DRtg) and they're currently putting up a horrific 111 DRtg against the Cavs in this series.. They're also allowing a very high 97 PPG relative to the 87.5 snail-pace.

So now that I think of it - anytime MJ was in these conditions, he averaged 40-45 PPG on 50-55% FG, end of story.
29-17, dick cheese.

[Legends66NBA7]

Rose obviously doesn't have his wind yet, and the haters dont consider that Either.

He's not their best defensive player. Milwaukee and Cleveland have bigger losses going into their respective series against Chicago.

[pauk]

What don't Bran stans understand?

2014 finals- Gets his sh1t pushed worse than any team in playoff history while shooting nearly 60% (mostly cherry picked layups/dunks).

This series- Shooting about 40% but being aggressive offensively and they're up 3-2.

People that d1ck ride Bran don't understand basketball....just numbers. This goes for idiots like Reggie Miller/Sir Charles, too

While i did want that agressiveness from Lebron in 11' Finals the circumstances were also different due to it being the 1st year with Wade/Bosh, you know, that whole "My turn, your turn" thing they were doing, whoever was hot had the most touches.... and they were actually doing good as Wade was on fire & Bosh doing a thing here and there.... the problem was the clutch, thats where they lost the games... Lebron figured "ima step in when its necessary" but that didnt happen (clutch/4th) as he is now completely out of rythm from basically not trying to score entire game until then...

Miami didnt start winning until Wade officialy gave Lebron the green light directly after that Finals something like "For us to be successful Lebron has to lead, i have to take a step back" and then history was made....

Its another thing to be that passive for 4-7 games when you are playing with 2 superstars for the first time, its just guys being unselfish trying to figure out what works best in order for them to be the most complementary / successful....... and another to be that passive when you have only scrubs around you, that Lebron has never been, always agressive....

Just like here, there is nobody around him like that, Love is gone & Kyrie is crawling on one leg.... he is forced to be that agressive no matter what....

[livinglegend]

What don't Bran stans understand?

2014 finals- Gets his sh1t pushed worse than any team in playoff history while shooting nearly 60% (mostly cherry picked layups/dunks).

This series- Shooting about 40% but being aggressive offensively and they're up 3-2.

People that d1ck ride Bran don't understand basketball....just numbers. This goes for idiots like Reggie Miller/Sir Charles, too

They lost 2014 mainly on defense.
Why is it so hard to understand?
Watch the games. Heat were lost. I have never seen a team with so many defensive breakdowns in a finals series. Spurs ball movement absolutely killed Heat's defensive system.

[Pointguard]

He's not their best defensive player. Milwaukee and Cleveland have bigger losses going into their respective series against Chicago.
You need your wind to play defense. When Rose has his energy his lock down mode is as good as any point guard in the game.

[Legends66NBA7]

You need your wind to play defense. When Rose has his energy his lock down mode is as good as any point guard in the game.

He's has played good defense.

[Pointguard]

Actually it does.

The better you are outside of scoring... The less that scoring and scoring efficiency matters.

Hence why Lebron is s terrible example of this because he can be elite in pretty much all aspects of the game outside of off ball impact.

Of course context matters.... Problem is that you Rose fans don't know how to use it.

This series is also a bad example because the Bulls suck right now. The Cavs would likely be at home right now if they were playing out West. Maybe the Bulls get it together, but they've looked really poor in the playoffs so far.
Once again you are avoiding the question, if you think you are right explain the most efficient point guard who is the
the most versatile guard losing to a competitor who definitively outplayed Paul in that series. Paul vs Westbrook.

[3ball]

They lost 2014 mainly on defense.
Why is it so hard to understand?


The Spurs offense destroyed the Heat far more than any other team - they had a 121 ORtg against the Heat, and the next highest was Portland at 113.

So the Spurs got super-hot ONLY against the Heat.. You think it's just random when a team gets hot?.. That's not rational.. Guys get hot when they have higher-than-normal confidence, optimism, adrenaline, and/or comfort/rhythm (also called "momentum").

But a team can't generate momentum if the other team is scoring every time and running them out of the gym.. It's actually the opposite - teams get momentum when the other team ISN'T scoring.. In theory, momentum can be spearheaded anytime a team scores 2 consecutive, unanswered buckets.

Obviously, since the Heat scored the least of any Spurs opponent, they were answering the Spurs buckets the LEAST, and therefore ceding more consecutive buckets and momentum than any previous Spurs opponent - essentially, a team that will be harder to score on if they are trading buckets, rather than giving up consecutive buckets, and momentum.

[DMAVS41]

Once again you are avoiding the question, if you think you are right explain the most efficient point guard who is the
the most versatile guard losing to a competitor who definitively outplayed Paul in that series. Paul vs Westbrook.

So now I need to explain to you how a WB/Durant led team beat the Clippers... Really?

Also, pretty sure WB was more efficient in that series.

And honestly if Paul doesn't choke at the end of game 5... Clippers win that series.

You come up with the worst examples.

[Pointguard]

To second what the OP is asking: why wasn't LeBron's most efficient finals one of his best? And its obvious which one was his worst - the one where he was least aggressive.

[DMAVS41]

To second what the OP is asking: why wasn't LeBron's most efficient finals one of his best? And its obvious which one was his worst - the one where he was least aggressive.

Because it's not all or nothing.

Not hard for people with brains...

[ArbitraryWater]

Why do you even post in the NBA forum? You're like 15 years old and started watching basketball (or should I say LeBron) 2 years ago. Go back to the OTC, fool.

EDIT: 40 posts a day over almost a year and a half? Yikes!

http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac303/elfprincessarcher/morganfreemanhemad.jpg

[livinglegend]

The Spurs offense destroyed the Heat far more than any other team - they had a 121 ORtg against the Heat, and the next highest was Portland at 113.

So the Spurs got super-hot ONLY against the Heat.. You think it's just random when a team gets hot?.. That's not rational.. Guys get hot when they have higher-than-normal confidence, optimism, adrenaline, and/or comfort/rhythm (also called "momentum").

But a team can't generate momentum if the other team is scoring every time and running them out of the gym.. It's actually the opposite - teams get momentum when the other team ISN'T scoring.. In theory, momentum can be spearheaded anytime a team scores 2 consecutive, unanswered buckets.

Obviously, since the Heat scored the least of any Spurs opponent, they were answering the Spurs buckets the LEAST, and therefore ceding more consecutive buckets and momentum than any previous Spurs opponent - essentially, a team that will be harder to score on if they are trading buckets, rather than giving up consecutive buckets, and momentum.

The same logic can be used the other way around: A team can't generate offensive momentum if they can't get defensive stops. Therefore, Heat's bad defense explain their bad offense.

Also, your whole reply doesn't hold any value. They are all assumptions you came up with. Post facts/stats to support them if you want me to take it seriously.

[Pointguard]

So now I need to explain to you how a WB/Durant led team beat the Clippers... Really?

Also, pretty sure WB was more efficient in that series.

And honestly if Paul doesn't choke at the end of game 5... Clippers win that series.

You come up with the worst examples.

Paul and his crazy efficiency was beat by aggression plain and simple. It doesnt get any better than this at the point guard position. Thats my point. You cant refute it, right. Just admit it.

Come up with a better example, too.

[DMAVS41]

Paul and his crazy efficiency was beat by aggression plain and simple. It doesnt get any better than this at the point guard position. Thats my point. You cant refute it, right. Just admit it.

Come up with a better example, too.

WB scored more efficiently in that series you ****ing clown!

And WB had a better team.

And it's not all or nothing.

Let me guess... Durants 33/10/5 61%TS didn't help the Thunder win. It was a 1 on 1 contest.

[Pointguard]

S

You come up with the worst examples.
its the best example there is. Without Question.

[DMAVS41]

its the best example there is. Without Question.

I'll keep repeating.

WB was more efficient in that series.

So it would be evidence against you.

If WB had shot 54%TS... The Thunder would have lost. That is how stupid you are... You are making my point for me.

[Pointguard]

WB scored more efficiently in that series you ****ing clown!

And WB had a better team.

And it's not all or nothing.

Let me guess... Durants 33/10/5 61%TS didn't help the Thunder win. It was a 1 on 1 contest.
surely your dumb as isn't thinking that I'm saying CP3 was the most efficient player every game. He is the apex of efficiency and versatility the keys to your earlier point.

[3ball]

The same logic can be used the other way around: A team can't generate offensive momentum if they can't get defensive stops.


Teams frequently can't get stops, but they still trade buckets most of the time.. That's how most games go - they are relatively close as teams trade buckets - there's your fact.

It's only when one team's scoring pace falls off that an opponent can score consecutively and generate extra confidence and optimism (momentum), which allows them to score even easier.. Again, a team will be harder to score on if they are trading buckets, rather than giving up consecutive buckets, and therefore momentum.





Post facts


Here's a fact that supports the notion that better offense results in better defense - for EVERY Spurs opponent in the 2014 playoffs, the more a team scored against the Spurs, the less the Spurs scored - so better offense DID result in better defense against the Spurs.

Just look at the numbers: the team that scored the least points against the Spurs, gave up the most (Heat)... The team that scored the 2nd least (Portland) gave up the 2nd most points.. OKC scored the 3rd least, so they gave up the 3rd most points.. And Dallas scored the most and gave up the least - so the more the Spurs' opponents scored, the less the Spurs scored.. Let me know if you want me to list the actual numbers.
.

[DMAVS41]

surely your dumb as isn't thinking that I'm saying CP3 was the most efficient player every game. He is the apex of efficiency and versatility the keys to your earlier point.

But WB was more efficient.... So what is your point?

That how players play matters and that having Durant helps.

You got owned...leave

[Kvnzhangyay]

This is factually incorrect, and the opposite of the truth... In this series, the Bulls DRtg is a horrific 111, and the Cavs is 108 (link to data below)..

The Cavs and Bulls are scoring 97 and 94 PPG respectively, despite playing at a snail-pace of 87.5

So you're wrong - the reason Lebron is shooting poorly has nothing to do with defense - based on the defense alone, Lebron should be shooting excellently, because the defense is bad.. The REAL reason he is shooting poorly is very obvious - he is shooting 27 times per game, which he is not accustomed to... the more FGA you have per game, the lower your FG% will be - this is a FACT

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015_ECS_CHI-CLE.html

it is NOT because he is shooting more times (yes, with 25FGA his % wouldnt be at 56%, but def not at 40 like it is now in other years).

Proof is that Lebron shot 4.3 threes a game last playoffs at an impressive .407, and this year he is shooting 4.9 threes a game at a horrific .159 (worse than josh smith)

[3ball]

Proof is that Lebron shot 4.3 threes a game last playoffs at an impressive .407, and this year he is shooting 4.9 threes a game at a horrific .159 (worse than josh smith)


Fine, leave the 3-pointers out of it - let's just look at 2-point shooting - 62% in last year's playoffs, down to only 50% this year.. Lebron is shooting worse this season from everywhere.





it is NOT because he is shooting more times


It's certainly not the defense - look bro, I agree that using DRtg to guage defensive effectiveness doesn't work when comparing over the eras.

But when you're comparing performances across the same era or season, DRtg is the best defensive measure to use by far.

That's why we know Chicago's defense has been horrible in this series - they are giving up a whopping 111 points per 100 possessions (111 DRtg).. And they've been a mediocre defensive team all year - they were ranked 11th in the RS.
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Fine, leave the 3-pointers out of it - let's just look at 2-point shooting - 62% in last year's playoffs, down to only 50% this year.. Lebron is shooting worse this season from everywhere.



It's certainly not the defense - look bro, I agree that using DRtg to guage defensive effectiveness doesn't work when comparing over the eras.

But when you're comparing performances across the same season, DRtg is the best defensive measure to use by far.

That's why we know Chicago's defense has been horrible in this series - they are giving up a whopping 111 points per 100 possessions (111 DRtg).. And they've been a mediocre defensive team all year - they were ranked 11th in the RS.

yeah ofc.... the reason is just that lebrons shooting sucks this year

[JebronLames]

If Lebron from 2012-2014 showed up, this would have been a sweep.

[3ball]

lebrons shooting sucks this year


it sucked in RS, but it's far worse this postseason, and the ONLY thing that's changed is his FGA is way up..

that's the only thing that's changed from the regular season..

because it's not the Bulls defense.. the Bulls 11th ranked defense was mediocre all year and is actually horrific in this series - they're giving up 7 more points per 100 possessions than the regular season (111 DRtg vs 104).

[Kvnzhangyay]

it sucked in RS, but it's far worse this postseason, and the ONLY thing that's changed is that his FGA is way up..

that's the only thing that's changed from the regular season..

because it's not the Bulls defense.. the Bulls 11th ranked defense was mediocre all year and is actually horrific in this series - they're giving up 7 more points per 100 possessions than the regular season (111 DRtg vs 104).

its just that his jumper is COMPLETELY broken

Like I mean, just look at the threes for example. Its not even like his threes are being contested any more than they were before- they're just bricking.

[avonbarksdale]

it's not that simple.. players aren't programmable robots, where if Lebron doesn't shoot, another player is GUARANTEED to get a decent look... Most of those 7 extra shots are the best shot available.

also, when lebron shoots at a 17 FGA frequency as opposed to 25 FGA frequency, the defense doesn't have to come off his teammates as much.. Teams and players aren't dumb - if they see a guy not being as aggressive, they will pay less attention to him and stay at home.

finally, there is no stat for this, but i would bet my life that when the #1 option is gunning (very high shot frequency), the offensive rebounding rate on those shots is significantly higher than any other player - when the star player is shooting at a high frequency, the supporting cast learns to anticipate his movements and when the shot is going up - i know this from experience being a role player alongside star players who had all the plays run for them - as a role player, you learn to get in position to rebound their shots.. I'd be willing to bet that there is a positive correlation between star player FG attempts and the team's offensive rebounding rate.
.


agreed

i would like to see some kind of stat about how many total field goals the team takes on avg when lebron shoots say 17 instead of 25 shots, to see if those 8 shots are really being used if he isn't the one taking them

[livinglegend]

Teams frequently can't get stops, but they still trade buckets most of the time.. That's how most games go - they are relatively close as teams trade buckets - there's your fact.

That's not a fact. That's just another of your assumptions.


It's only when one team's scoring pace falls off that an opponent can score consecutively and generate extra confidence and optimism (momentum), which allows them to score even easier.. Again, a team will be harder to score on if they are trading buckets, rather than giving up consecutive buckets, and therefore momentum.

Another assumption without support.




Here's a fact that supports the notion that better offense results in better defense - for EVERY Spurs opponent in the 2014 playoffs, the more a team scored against the Spurs, the less the Spurs scored - so better offense DID result in better defense against the Spurs.

Just look at the numbers: the team that scored the least points against the Spurs, gave up the most (Heat)... The team that scored the 2nd least (Portland) gave up the 2nd most points.. OKC scored the 3rd least, so they gave up the 3rd most points.. And Dallas scored the most and gave up the least - so the more the Spurs' opponents scored, the less the Spurs scored.. Let me know if you want me to list the actual numbers.
.

That's a fact supporting your point. But it's a small sample.
Now, let's see if it applies in a larger sample.
By your logic, teams with the highest points per game should also be teams with the lowest point per game allowed.

This postseason teams with hightest ppg scored:
1. Houston
2. Dallas
3. LA clippers
4. Spurs
5. Wizards

This postseason teams with the lowest ppg allowed:
1. Chicago
2. GSW
3. Cavaliers
4. Grizzlies
5. Hawks


hummmm.... No, it doesn't work. Sorry.

[Pointguard]

But WB was more efficient.... So what is your point?

That how players play matters and that having Durant helps.


Yes Dmavs the idiot has a light bulb moment!!!

How they PLAY! !! lAggressively


Every team that won the championship played aggressively. How many great shooting teams have won??? Let's try none.

What do great coaches say Defense and rebounding win????? What???? What do boards and defense measure??? Non aggression??? Wait TS %??? Yes it has to be TS%???

Jordan was the best because of his aggression. Shaq was dominant because of his aggression. Once LeBron showed he wasn't always aggressive, he was eliminated from being considered GOAT.

You never competed in your life have you? Even as a couch potato you should know thats what makes the game go. Do you even know what is happening on the court.

[ISHGoat]

Yes Dmavs the idiot has a light bulb moment!!!

How they PLAY! !! lAggressively


Every team that won the championship played aggressively. How many great shooting teams have won??? Let's try none.

What do great coaches say Defense and rebounding win????? What???? What do boards and defense measure??? Non aggression??? Wait TS %??? Yes it has to be TS%???

Jordan was the best because of his aggression. Shaq was dominant because of his aggression. Once LeBron showed he wasn't always aggressive, he was eliminated from being considered GOAT.

You never competed in your life have you? Even as a couch potato you should know thats what makes the game go. Do you even know what is happening on the court.


derrick rose is aggressivly chucking the bulls out of the series :roll: :roll:

[Pointguard]

derrick rose is aggressivly chucking the bulls out of the series :roll: :roll:
Wow did you read what you quoted??? You cant win without going hard. Its idiotic to be passive in a competitive sport. You have to fight. Any body who has fought knows thats the only way to go. Unless you know what inside of you is being tested, you fight to transcend it.

You never stood up to the bullies apparently?

[3ball]

That's not a fact. That's just another of your assumptions.


It is a fact - most NBA games are close... 26 of 30 teams had margins of victory or loss between -6 and +6.. So just two-possession games.. And 20 of 30 teams had margins of victory between -3 and +3, or one just possession games.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats





By your logic, teams with the highest points per game should also be teams with the lowest point per game allowed.


No, I simply pointed out that teams who score more PPG could keep the game closer and have a better chance at winning.. which is true... The Heat scored by far the least PPG of any Spurs opponent, and consequently, they couldn't keep the game close or have any chance at winning..

The Heat's ineptness offensively led to more consecutive, unanswered Spurs hoops than any other series, which fueled the Spurs confidence, optimism, and ultimately, their anomalous hot shooting... Whereas your reason for the Spurs anomalous hot shooting is coincidence..

[ISHGoat]

Wow did you read what you quoted??? You cant win without going hard. Its idiotic to be passive in a competitive sport. You have to fight. Any body who has fought knows thats the only way to go. Unless you know what inside of you is being tested, you fight to transcend it.

You never stood up to the bullies apparently?

Being aggressive is good, but sometimes being too aggressive hurts your team

And I teamed up/befriended the bully in true lebron fashion

[DMAVS41]

Yes Dmavs the idiot has a light bulb moment!!!

How they PLAY! !! lAggressively


Every team that won the championship played aggressively. How many great shooting teams have won??? Let's try none.

What do great coaches say Defense and rebounding win????? What???? What do boards and defense measure??? Non aggression??? Wait TS %??? Yes it has to be TS%???

Jordan was the best because of his aggression. Shaq was dominant because of his aggression. Once LeBron showed he wasn't always aggressive, he was eliminated from being considered GOAT.

You never competed in your life have you? Even as a couch potato you should know thats what makes the game go. Do you even know what is happening on the court.


Hey moron...take a look at my posts in this thread. It's not all or nothing.

Without WB being aggressive and efficient. They would have lost that series you are talking about. He shot 62%TS and was super aggressive. If he shots 52%TS and is just as aggressive. His team is at home.

I never once claimed that being aggressive or forcing the issue was a negative quality always or some BS thing.

You, on the other hand, have called scoring efficiency a BS thing.

Even you should be able to figure out who is correct here.

Doesn't matter how aggressive a player is...shooting a Rose like 45% TS won't win you shit unless your team bails you out completely...

[livinglegend]

No, I simply pointed out that teams who score more PPG could keep the game closer and have a better chance at winning.. which is true... The Heat scored by far the least PPG of any Spurs opponent, and consequently, they couldn't keep the game close or have any chance at winning..

The Heat's ineptness offensively led to more consecutive, unanswered Spurs hoops than any other series, which fueled the Spurs confidence, optimism, and ultimately, their anomalous hot shooting... Whereas your reason for the Spurs anomalous hot shooting is coincidence..

This is what you'll actually said. Don't lie.


''Here's a fact that supports the notion that better offense results in better defense - for EVERY Spurs opponent in the 2014 playoffs, the more a team scored against the Spurs, the less the Spurs scored - so better offense DID result in better defense against the Spurs.''

You didn't simply point out that teams who could score more could keep the games closer. You clearly said better offense generate better defense. And you supported your statement with this:


''Just look at the numbers: the team that scored the least points against the Spurs, gave up the most (Heat)... The team that scored the 2nd least (Portland) gave up the 2nd most points.. OKC scored the 3rd least, so they gave up the 3rd most points.. And Dallas scored the most and gave up the least - so the more the Spurs' opponents scored, the less the Spurs scored.. Let me know if you want me to list the actual numbers.''

Your support showed that teams who scored more allowed less points.
I pointed out that your support is a small sample and proved to you that your logic doesn't apply in larger sample
Your logic got exposed with facts and now, you are lying to get out of it.

Also, I never said Spurs' hot shooting was pure coincidence. Another lie.
I clearly said Spurs exposed Heat's defensive system with their high class ball movement.
I had never seen so many defensive breakdowns by a team in a finals series. Heat's defensive system was involved lot of trapping.
To beat that defense, ball movement is necessarily. That was the reason why Heat struggled so much against the Spurs, but they had easier time against OKC.

[tpols]

Check this out pg/dmavs.. pretty interesting



As another example, consider the cases of Elton Brand and Derrick Rose. Conventional wisdom suggests Elton Brand is a better mid-range shooter than Derrick Rose. Over the last two seasons Elton Brand made 381 out of his 782 mid-range jumpers (49 percent). This is really impressive because as a whole the league shoots only 38 percent from mid-range. During the same window, Derrick Rose made 294 of his 724 mid-range shots (41 percent), which isn’t bad, but it’s much closer to average than to elite. Again, field goal percentage does not tell the whole story. The Bulls rebounded 152 of Rose’s 430 misses (35 percent), while the Sixers rebounded only 63 of Brand’s 401 misses (16 percent). Looking at these shots through another lens, 62 percent of Rose’s mid-range shots result in points or a fresh possession for the Bulls. For Brand, 57 percent of his mid-range shots result in points or a fresh possession for the Sixers. Which is better?

The Rose-Brand comparison suggests that by appending offensive rebounding rate or put-back rate to field goal percentage we can more accurately assess a shot’s true value. Every time a shot is released, a potential change of possession gets its wings. An additional reason close-range shots are more effective than mid-range shots is that, when missed, they are rebounded by the offensive team at much higher rates; in other words, they kill possessions at lower rates than jump shots.

[J Shuttlesworth]

If LeBron was putting up his 2013 playoff numbers, this would be a sweep. Putting up the same amount of points on less shots is a good thing... that means other teammates would get more shots. Shumpert/JR/Kyrie/Mozgov getting a few more shots would not be a bad thing at all. LeBron's 1st, 3rd, and 4th game were pretty damn bad by his standards, despite the game winner in game 4.

[Pointguard]

Hey moron...take a look at my posts in this thread. It's not all or nothing.

Without WB being aggressive and efficient. They would have lost that series you are talking about. He shot 62%TS and was super aggressive. If he shots 52%TS and is just as aggressive. His team is at home.
Only a blind idiot would say he was playing like he is now.



I never once claimed that being aggressive or forcing the issue was a negative quality always or some BS thing.
Its the main quality that's in discussion on this board. That's what the OP is talking about. Now you aren't talking about it... figures.


You, on the other hand, have called scoring efficiency a BS thing.

Even you should be able to figure out who is correct here.
Definitely isn't the diseased moron hater - since I know you haven't gone to detox and denial is part of your symptoms - I'm talking about you, Dmavs.

TS% has little presence in most peoples top ten GOAT list because its not important to have it. The top ten career people in TS% is an ok list. But the top ten FGA list would destroy em in a game. Hell, top ten in turn overs would obliterate the top then in TS% without question. Obviously, the more aggressive players are significantly better.

Top ten Defensive players of the year guys would totally destroy TS% guys. Top ten rebounders would totally destroy them. Top ten in career steals totally crush em. Top ten in Assist waaaay more HOFers.

TS% The Killer Stat

[DMAVS41]

Only a blind idiot would say he was playing like he is now.

Its the main quality that's in discussion on this board. That's what the OP is talking about. Now you aren't talking about it... figures.

Definitely isn't the diseased moron hater - since I know you haven't gone to detox and denial is part of your symptoms - I'm talking about you, Dmavs.

TS% has little presence in most peoples top ten GOAT list because its not important to have it. The top ten career people in TS% is an ok list. But the top ten FGA list would destroy em in a game. Hell, top ten in turn overs would obliterate the top then in TS% without question. Obviously, the more aggressive players are significantly better.

Top ten Defensive players of the year guys would totally destroy TS% guys. Top ten rebounders would totally destroy them. Top ten in career steals totally crush em. Top ten in Assist waaaay more HOFers.

TS% The Killer Stat


Simple question.

Do you think the Thunder beat the Clippers last year if Westbrook drops 10% TS per game and plays just as aggressive?

Please answer.

[DMAVS41]

Check this out pg/dmavs.. pretty interesting

Yea. Seen that before.

Hence why drawing defensive attention and being aggressive...having gravity...or whatever you want to call it is also important and just looking at efficiency isn't enough.

But you still have to make shots and score efficiently.

Rose hasn't done this to date in the playoffs.

And showing a series with Lebron's team winning despite him shooting poorly is a horrible argument because he's one of the most well rounded and versatile players ever.

Also, I might add, that the series was tied 2-2 when Lebron's shot was off.

They won game 5 only because Lebron was super efficient.

I just don't get how a reasonable person could refute that scoring efficiency matters for scorer...it's literally as dumb as it gets.

Again, obviously not everything, but it's a big piece of the puzzle for how impactful a scorer is.

[Pointguard]

Simple question.

Do you think the Thunder beat the Clippers last year if Westbrook drops 10% TS per game and plays just as aggressive?

Please answer.
:lol
Really. You aren't making a point, you are just being outrageous. Wait, that's your whole MO. Outrageous without making a point. Nobody plays within those extremes. Deal with what the OP is saying. Or what I said. I am not getting lost in you mental limitations.

[DMAVS41]

:lol
Really. You aren't making a point, you are just being outrageous. Wait, that's your whole MO. Outrageous without making a point. Nobody plays within those extremes. Deal with what the OP is saying. Or what I said. I am not getting lost in you mental limitations.

That is the point. Everything matters.

So if TS% doesn't matter. I'd like to know if you think the Thunder still win with WB scoring at a much worse rate.

How is that outrageous?

You haven't said anything that makes sense. You pointed out a series that actually saw WB score more efficiently than Paul...and because you are so stupid...you think it makes a point for you.

:facepalm

I'll ask any even simpler question.

Does scoring efficiency matter for scorers at all?

[triangleoffense]

GTFO anyone please who thinks regular season defense and playoff defense arent completely different ballgames.

[Pointguard]

Yea. Seen that before.

Hence why drawing defensive attention and being aggressive...having gravity...or whatever you want to call it is also important and just looking at efficiency isn't enough.

But you still have to make shots and score efficiently.

Rose hasn't done this to date in the playoffs.

Rose can not shoot his favorite shot. Can't do his favorite move. Has trouble with a crossover. He's not himself, plain and simple. Why are you so stuck on him? Big deal? Get a real job.


Also, I might add, that the series was tied 2-2 when Lebron's shot was off.

They won game 5 only because Lebron was super efficient.

I just don't get how a reasonable person could refute that scoring efficiency matters for scorer...it's literally as dumb as it gets.

Like I said, Take the top the 10 career TS% players and pit them against any of the aggressive stats of top ten career list in FGA, Steals, Blocks, Turnovers, defense. Do you want me to embarrass you and show you what the teams looks like?

You thought this all your life apparently but are now confronted with a different reality. Efficiency is inferior to aggression. You can't deny it. In physical dynamic competition its usually about the human quality that separates the competitors. Not just basketball. You are dumber than you think. The OP made a simple and true observation. You can't deal.

[gts]

Lebron 3-14 midway through the 3rd quarter of a closeout game :lol

[DMAVS41]

Rose can not shoot his favorite shot. Can't do his favorite move. Has trouble with a crossover. He's not himself, plain and simple. Why are you so stuck on him? Big deal? Get a real job.

Like I said, Take the top the 10 career TS% players and pit them against any of the aggressive stats of top ten career list in FGA, Steals, Blocks, Turnovers, defense. Do you want me to embarrass you and show you what the teams looks like?

You thought this all your life apparently but are now confronted with a different reality. Efficiency is inferior to aggression. You can't deny it. In physical dynamic competition its usually about the human quality that separates the competitors. Not just basketball. You are dumber than you think. The OP made a simple and true observation. You can't deal.


I can't deal with you because you can't make sense.

I can't answer without specifics.

Like...what players are we talking about? Because sometimes aggressiveness is more valuable than efficiency...I completely agree. I've never argued efficiency is always most important.

But if you are going to take Rose vs Dirk, for example, Dirk's efficiency easily is more impactful than Rose's aggressiveness in my opinion.

But honestly, there is so much to analyze in a player...breaking it down to just aggressiveness vs efficiency is beyond narrow. You'd have to look at so much more than what you are advocating.

[DMAVS41]

Lebron 3-14 midway through the 3rd quarter of a closeout game :lol

And he can get away with that because he's an elite all time great all around player....and he's playing a horrific team right now in a joke conference.

[3ball]

You clearly said better offense generate better defense.


For that specific team!.. Holy crap.. Take the 2006 Phoenix Suns - they were a bad defensive team, but they were an even WORSE defensive team when they couldn't score.

So the notion that better offense means better defense applies to comparing 1 team's defensive performance when they're trading buckets, to THAT SAME TEAM'S performance when they're getting stopped.. When a team is getting stopped, the other teams successive, unanswered scores builds extra confidence, comfort/rhythm, and optimism for the scoring team, while reducing these SAME THINGS for non-scoring team that's getting their doors blown off.





To beat that (trapping Heat) defense, ball movement is necessarily.


That's garbage - the Heat made adjustments like any playoff team game to game.. The actual facts are that Dallas was a MUCH worse defensive team (one of the worst itl) but they held the Spurs offense down much better - their vastly superior offense was able to keep up with the Spurs and ANSWER their scores, thus preventing the Spurs confidence and comfort (momentum) from boiling over.

It's funny, the Heat had the worst offense of any Spurs opponent, yet you think the point differential between the Spurs-Heat is due exclusively to the Heat defense?.. Obviously, that makes no sense.
.

[tpols]

Lebron 3-14 midway through the 3rd quarter of a closeout game :lol

Yea and the cavs are blowing them out:oldlol: :oldlol:

[tontoz]

Assuming this is about Rose.......

Now why would you think that? :oldlol:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Nathanjizzle is the Matthew Dellavedova of ISH. Fudge, you know what I mean by that.

[Pointguard]

Check this out pg/dmavs.. pretty interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grantland
As another example, consider the cases of Elton Brand and Derrick Rose. Conventional wisdom suggests Elton Brand is a better mid-range shooter than Derrick Rose. Over the last two seasons Elton Brand made 381 out of his 782 mid-range jumpers (49 percent). This is really impressive because as a whole the league shoots only 38 percent from mid-range. During the same window, Derrick Rose made 294 of his 724 mid-range shots (41 percent), which isn’t bad, but it’s much closer to average than to elite. Again, field goal percentage does not tell the whole story. The Bulls rebounded 152 of Rose’s 430 misses (35 percent), while the Sixers rebounded only 63 of Brand’s 401 misses (16 percent). Looking at these shots through another lens, 62 percent of Rose’s mid-range shots result in points or a fresh possession for the Bulls. For Brand, 57 percent of his mid-range shots result in points or a fresh possession for the Sixers. Which is better?

The Rose-Brand comparison suggests that by appending offensive rebounding rate or put-back rate to field goal percentage we can more accurately assess a shot’s true value. Every time a shot is released, a potential change of possession gets its wings. An additional reason close-range shots are more effective than mid-range shots is that, when missed, they are rebounded by the offensive team at much higher rates; in other words, they kill possessions at lower rates than jump shots.

Yes, its obvious that Coach Thibes plays with this in mind. Rose's role is to break down the defense down in hopes of wearing the other team down. Rose's role is not efficiency. But this concept is way over Dmav's head. He has never handled it before and he's just a redundant guy. New things don't work with Dmavs.

Thibes is unconventional. He has a height advantage at every position and even on the bench. How many times have you seen a deep post in this game. How many cuts have you seen in this game? But thanks for the post.

[DMAVS41]

Yes, its obvious that Coach Thibes plays with this in mind. Rose's role is to break down the defense down in hopes of wearing the other team down. Rose's role is not efficiency. But this concept is way over Dmav's head. He has never handled it before and he's just a redundant guy. New things don't work with Dmavs.

Thibes is unconventional. He has a height advantage at every position and even on the bench. How many times have you seen a deep post in this game. How many cuts have you seen in this game? But thanks for the post.

Literally it's reasons like that article that I ranked Rose as high as I did in 11.

If you really think I only care about one thing...why the **** would I have Rose in my top 7 or 8?

Also, all great players are going to get a lot more attention than Elton Brand...

Like I said before and repeatedly...so much to take into account. Being aggressive might be good and it might be too much....depends on the circumstances.

What I do know...is that being aggressive alone isn't worth shit unless you can do a bunch of other things.

Where was dat Rose leadership you always speak of? Looked like he quit tonight. Didn't see anything from him that made me think he didn't quit. Not what you want out of your franchise player...14-40 shooting in the last 2 games.

Did he not "turn the wheel"????

[tpols]

Yes, its obvious that Coach Thibes plays with this in mind. Rose's role is to break down the defense down in hopes of wearing the other team down. Rose's role is not efficiency. But this concept is way over Dmav's head. He has never handled it before and he's just a redundant guy. New things don't work with Dmavs.

Thibes is unconventional. He has a height advantage at every position and even on the bench. How many times have you seen a deep post in this game. How many cuts have you seen in this game? But thanks for the post.

Pau started the game on fire and provided nice momentum.. and i never saw shit from him after that. Coach just.. ignored him, gave perimeter guys free reign. matchups.. they needed to ride gasol. I don't understand it.

[IllegalD]

7-23 :lol

[aj1987]

And he can get away with that because he's an elite all time great all around player....and he's playing a horrific team right now in a joke conference.
You can keep harping and crying about how it's a "joke conference", but the FACT'S won't change. Meanwhile the Warriors lost 2 games to a Grizz team with NO offense and the Clippers lost 3 to a shitty ass Rockets team, whose "best player" is playing worse than garbage.

[oh the horror]

You can keep harping and crying about how it's a "joke conference", but the FACT'S won't change. Meanwhile the Warriors lost 2 games to a Grizz team with NO offense and the Clippers lost 3 to a shitty ass Rockets team, whose "best player" is playing worse than garbage.



And all of those teams would have beaten both the Cavs and the Bulls in a series with ease dude.


Just spread your ass cheeks and bend over and take it. The eastern conference is historically bad right now

[DMAVS41]

You can keep harping and crying about how it's a "joke conference", but the FACT'S won't change. Meanwhile the Warriors lost 2 games to a Grizz team with NO offense and the Clippers lost 3 to a shitty ass Rockets team, whose "best player" is playing worse than garbage.

What are you talking about? The Grizzlies and Rockets are both good teams. Better than good.

Cavs are the only team in the East that would have much of a chance against either of those teams.

Shitty ass Rockets? They are going to 7 against an elite Clippers team and earned the 2nd seed in a loaded conference.

Yet they are shitty?

But a Bulls team that plays horrific offense and truly over-rated defense is somehow good?

This is why the system has to change...you clowns are confusing bad basketball with good defense.

Everyone outside the Cavs and Hawks just suck in the East.

[J Shuttlesworth]

What are you talking about? The Grizzlies and Rockets are both good teams. Better than good.

Cavs are the only team in the East that would have much of a chance against either of those teams.
.
I think the Hawks would have a chance too, if everyone is healthy. I'd also have the Cavs as favorites against the Rockets or Grizzlies IF Love was healthy

[DMAVS41]

I think the Hawks would have a chance too, if everyone is healthy. I'd also have the Cavs as favorites against the Rockets or Grizzlies IF Love was healthy

Of course if Love was healthy. But he's not. Neither is Kyrie...LOL

And I don't think the Hawks would have a very good chance right now. They aren't playing very well. And those problems would just be exaggerated playing against much better competition.

Could the Hawks if they break out of this funk they are kind of in? Sure...the Cavs and Hawks are real teams.

Everyone else is pretty bad in my opinion.

[34-24 Footwork]

Rockets, Clippers, Grizz and Warriors WISH they could play the Cavs/Bulls in a 7 game series:lol

East is done.

Paul George-done (hopefully i'm wrong about this)
Rose-done (playing like a less effective tony parker)
Wade-done

Only people to look forward to is Carmelo, Kyrie and Wall

The east hasn't had anyone that's truly entertaining to watch since 2009 Wade, Orlando TMac and Toronto Vinsanity.

Where are all the stars in the East???? :confusedshrug: :sleeping

[ImKobe]

lol point is that his competition sucks so much that he can shoot 30% from the field on the road and still win in a blowout with 2 star players out...

Dude hasn't been as great as people make him out to be in this series, but he didn't need to because Chicago sucked ass.

[nathanjizzle]

he did it again!

[Lebron23]

He's playing without Kevin Love, and Kyrie Irving. He just out works the Hawks.

[DMAVS41]

he did it again!

Did what?

Beat a slumping Hawks team without essentially Korver and Horford at home?

Also, Lebron played a great game overall.

He started off 0-10 and then went 14-27 the rest of the way.

And, Lebron was lucky that when he was playing so poorly in the first half for so...his team kept it close. Part of having teammates step up...and playing a team that just isn't good right now. They haven't been very good for months now.

I don't understand why you can't comprehend this stuff.

Efficiency is not the only thing that matters. But, Lebron is a terrible player to prove that point because he's arguably the most versatile player in NBA history. He can pretty much do everything at an elite level other than shoot.

Where if you take a guy like Rose...he can't do half the shit Lebron can do out there. He doesn't control a game like Lebron, he doesn't overpower people like Lebron, he doesn't rebound or pass or defend like Lebron...

It's just a really bad argument for you to make when it's Lebron (probably the most versatile player ever) and he's playing against shitty east teams with a huge margin of error.

Now, if he can shoot like he did in the Bulls series and they beat the Warriors? Then I'll listen to this crap...but until I see it happen against a quality team (Hawks used to be, but clearly aren't now)...I'm not gonna go crazy about it like you Rose clowns.

[nathanjizzle]

Did what?

Beat a slumping Hawks team without essentially Korver and Horford at home?

Also, Lebron played a great game overall.

He started off 0-10 and then went 14-27 the rest of the way.

And, Lebron was lucky that when he was playing so poorly in the first half for so...his team kept it close. Part of having teammates step up...and playing a team that just isn't good right now. They haven't been very good for months now.

I don't understand why you can't comprehend this stuff.

Efficiency is not the only thing that matters. But, Lebron is a terrible player to prove that point because he's arguably the most versatile player in NBA history. He can pretty much do everything at an elite level other than shoot.

Where if you take a guy like Rose...he can't do half the shit Lebron can do out there. He doesn't control a game like Lebron, he doesn't overpower people like Lebron, he doesn't rebound or pass or defend like Lebron...

It's just a really bad argument for you to make when it's Lebron (probably the most versatile player ever) and he's playing against shitty east teams with a huge margin of error.

Now, if he can shoot like he did in the Bulls series and they beat the Warriors? Then I'll listen to this crap...but until I see it happen against a quality team (Hawks used to be, but clearly aren't now)...I'm not gonna go crazy about it like you Rose clowns.

wow just shut up already. you dont know jack shit. this is not even about rose, its about basketball, if youre too retarded to understand then gtfo.

btw, you just contridicted yourself again, detracting from roses 2011 season saying it was the defense that made the team great, then in this thread you said "But a Bulls team that plays horrific offense and truly over-rated defense is somehow good"

just stop dude. youre ignorant.

[DMAVS41]

wow just shut up already. you dont know jack shit. this is not even about rose, its about basketball, if youre too retarded to understand then gtfo.

1. It's clearly about Rose for you

2. Efficiency is very clearly not the only thing that matters

3. Being super aggressive and taking a ton of shots can be both good and bad

4. Using Lebron as an example about efficiency not mattering that much is a terrible example because Lebron is such a dynamic and versatile player

5. The East sucks and drawing conclusions about beating these scrub teams is problematic to say the least

[DMAVS41]

wow just shut up already. you dont know jack shit. this is not even about rose, its about basketball, if youre too retarded to understand then gtfo.

btw, you just contridicted yourself again, detracting from roses 2011 season saying it was the defense that made the team great, then in this thread you said "But a Bulls team that plays horrific offense and truly over-rated defense is somehow good"

just stop dude. youre ignorant.


Moron.

I wast talking about this Bulls team. This shitty scrub Bulls team that didn't even play good defense against the Cavs. Not the 11 team.

Just stop moron. You can't be this stupid. You are either the best troll ever...or the dumbest person ever.

[tontoz]

Moron.

I wast talking about this Bulls team. This shitty scrub Bulls team that didn't even play good defense against the Cavs. Not the 11 team.

Just stop moron. You can't be this stupid. You are either the best troll ever...or the dumbest person ever.


I respectfully disagree.

[nathanjizzle]

1. It's clearly about Rose for you

2. Efficiency is very clearly not the only thing that matters

3. Being super aggressive and taking a ton of shots can be both good and bad

4. Using Lebron as an example about efficiency not mattering that much is a terrible example because Lebron is such a dynamic and versatile player

5. The East sucks and drawing conclusions about beating these scrub teams is problematic to say the least


1. its not for me but it is for you. :lol

2. obviously, im glad you have some kind of basketball knowledge.

3. Again, you show your ignorance and semantics, "taking alot of shots" is your boiled down interpretation of being "aggressive". being aggressive is coming down the court with the ball and the defense is on their heels because anything can happen, you can shoot, you can drive, you can get anywhere on the court and pass, you control the offense you can do anything, thats being aggressive. but playing passively for efficiency doesnt give that dynamic for your team. easy enough to understand right?

4. but lebron is the prime example of efficiency not mattering without context:biggums: if you compare lebron playing passive but doing everything else great, their is a clear difference between when he is playing aggressively but shooting less efficient.:lebronamazed: . so their is a difference that matters in impact on the game!! easy to understand right???

5. east scrub teams? your ignorance is astonishing.

[nathanjizzle]

Moron.

I wast talking about this Bulls team. This shitty scrub Bulls team that didn't even play good defense against the Cavs. Not the 11 team.

Just stop moron. You can't be this stupid. You are either the best troll ever...or the dumbest person ever.

are you ****ing retarded? when was the bulls team this season ever regarded as a great defensive team:roll: :roll: you must have been referring to prior seasons idiot. their was nothing overrated about our defense this year:facepalm retard. or was that just you being you using your semantics again.

but remember, we are playing in the east! our great defense isnt that great at all right.

[DMAVS41]

1. its not for me but it is for you. :lol

2. obviously, im glad you have some kind of basketball knowledge.

3. Again, you show your ignorance and semantics, "taking alot of shots" is your boiled down interpretation of being "aggressive". being aggressive is coming down the court with the ball and the defense is on their heels because anything can happen, you can shoot, you can drive, you can get anywhere on the court and pass, you control the offense you can do anything, thats being aggressive. but playing passively for efficiency doesnt give that dynamic for your team. easy enough to understand right?

4. but lebron is the prime example of efficiency not mattering without context:biggums: if you compare lebron playing passive but doing everything else great, their is a clear difference between when he is playing aggressively but shooting less efficient.:lebronamazed: . so their is a difference that matters in impact on the game!! easy to understand right???

5. east scrub teams? your ignorance is astonishing.


1. I said being aggressive and taking a lot of shots. The implication is that they aren't the same thing. Hence why I used the word "and"...

2. Lebron is a terrible example because he does more than just about any other player in NBA history outside of scoring

3. Yes, the East teams are terrible. How one can't admit this is beyond me. The Cavs are about to beat the 2nd best East team without Love and Kyrie in a sweep. It's a joke.

4. You have to combine being aggressive and having a high usage with quality efficiency. That is the goal of superstar players for the most part. It's almost impossible to win (against an elite team in the playoffs) if you have a high usage offensive player being really aggressive and taking a lot of shots...if said player is shooting poorly.

5. It's clearly about Rose. But that doesn't even matter at this point because Rose has done nothing of note in the playoffs for his career.

[DMAVS41]

are you ****ing retarded? when was the bulls team this season ever regarded as a great defensive team:roll: :roll: you must have been referring to prior seasons idiot. their was nothing overrated about our defense this year:facepalm retard. or was that just you being you using your semantics again.

but remember, we are playing in the east! our great defense isnt that great at all right.

What?

I said this Bulls team played over-rated defense. Plenty of people were saying the Bulls were a very good defensive team this year. And they weren't...especially in that Cavs series.

It was just too slumping teams playing like ass...and people confused it with quality defense.

And even with the teams slumping...the Cavs still scored at a good clip and their offense was actually humming along just fine per possession.

Just take the Loss on all this stuff man.

Rose was awful yet again in the playoffs...and the East is way worse than any of us even thought.

The East has 1 real team...and that's it. After watching these Hawks play all playoffs and the last couple months of the regular season. They wouldn't sniff the 2nd round in the West.

[nathanjizzle]

1. I said being aggressive and taking a lot of shots. The implication is that they aren't the same thing. Hence why I used the word "and"...

2. Lebron is a terrible example because he does more than just about any other player in NBA history outside of scoring

3. Yes, the East teams are terrible. How one can't admit this is beyond me. The Cavs are about to beat the 2nd best East team without Love and Kyrie in a sweep. It's a joke.

4. You have to combine being aggressive and having a high usage with quality efficiency. That is the goal of superstar players for the most part. It's almost impossible to win (against an elite team in the playoffs) if you have a high usage offensive player being really aggressive and taking a lot of shots...if said player is shooting poorly.

5. It's clearly about Rose. But that doesn't even matter at this point because Rose has done nothing of note in the playoffs for his career.

1.could have meant either way.

2. you still dont get it? your ignorance is blinding you. compare lebron to lebron idiot, and you will see the difference in impact.

3. semantics and ignorance again. you fail to see that lebron is playing with east players, against east team, whether the east is good or bad. the type of game the lebron playing is still the difference, especially against a series like the one against the bulls.

4. wtf is your point "You have to combine being aggressive and having a high usage with quality efficiency" YEAH, THATS CALLED BEING MICHAEL JORDAN. NO ONE WILL BE MICHAEL JORDAN. YOU GET A HEE HAWW FOR THAT ONE YOU DONKEY.

5. again, making it about rose.:lol you are obsessed with hating rose, because like you said "I dont hate him, i just dont like his style" :roll:
yup, leading your team to first place in the nba and overachieving is a style that you dont like, because its not the passive efficiency style that you worship ignorantly.

[DMAVS41]

1.could have meant either way.

2. you still dont get it? your ignorance is blinding you. compare lebron to lebron idiot, and you will see the difference in impact.

3. semantics and ignorance again. you fail to see that lebron is playing with east players, against east team, whether the east is good or bad. the type of game the lebron playing is still the difference, especially against a series like the one against the bulls.

4. wtf is your point "You have to combine being aggressive and having a high usage with quality efficiency" YEAH, THATS CALLED BEING MICHAEL JORDAN. NO ONE WILL BE MICHAEL JORDAN. YOU GET A HEE HAWW FOR THAT ONE YOU DONKEY.

5. again, making it about rose.:lol you are obsessed with hating rose, because like you said "I dont hate him, i just dont like his style" :roll:
yup, leading your team to first place in the nba and overachieving is a style that you dont like, because its not the passive efficiency style that you worship ignorantly.


Wait.

So your point is that Lebron playing aggressive and doing more is better than him playing passive and doing less?

Wow...what a great point!

So this is essentially some ****ed up argument about his 11 finals vs the Bulls series?

Well, let me tell you something, if Lebron had tried to play like he did against the Bulls this year in the playoffs vs the Mavs in 11...the series would have been over in 4.

That is what you can't grasp. Drawing conclusions while beating scrub East teams with terrible players like Rose out there shooting 45% TS is problematic.

Post this shit when Lebron beats a real team while shooting 46% TS....deal?

[nathanjizzle]

What?

I said this Bulls team played over-rated defense. Plenty of people were saying the Bulls were a very good defensive team this year. And they weren't...especially in that Cavs series.

It was just too slumping teams playing like ass...and people confused it with quality defense.

And even with the teams slumping...the Cavs still scored at a good clip and their offense was actually humming along just fine per possession.

Just take the Loss on all this stuff man.

Rose was awful yet again in the playoffs...and the East is way worse than any of us even thought.

The East has 1 real team...and that's it. After watching these Hawks play all playoffs and the last couple months of the regular season. They wouldn't sniff the 2nd round in the West.

you have no idea what you are even saying anymore. the debate is about aggressiveness and efficiency, but you reached so hard in trying to find facts that now you are trying to prove how bad the east is, and then talking about rose?:roll: rose was at some games the best player in the cavs series:facepalm how about dirk, did he have much of an impact losing in the first round as much as his other 6 round exits?

[nathanjizzle]

Wait.

So your point is that Lebron playing aggressive and doing more is better than him playing passive and doing less?


more semantics? wtf? no you idiot, let me slow this down for you.
lebron ... being ... efficient ... at ... the ... cost... of .... playing passively .....is .......worst......than.......lebron....playing.... aggressively....at....the....cost....of....efficie ncy.

better?

[DMAVS41]

you have no idea what you are even saying anymore. the debate is about aggressiveness and efficiency, but you reached so hard in trying to find facts that now you are trying to prove how bad the east is, and then talking about rose?:roll: rose was at some games the best player in the cavs series:facepalm how about dirk, did he have much of an impact losing in the first round as much as his other 6 round exits?

And I'm telling you that it's not all or nothing.

I'm telling you that very rarely, just aggressiveness alone or efficiency alone (if it's on limited usage) will win you anything.

I'm saying that sometimes being super aggressive can be a good thing...and sometimes it can be a bad thing.

I'm saying that sometimes taking a ton of shots can be a good thing...and sometimes it can be a bad thing.

I'm saying that using Lebron as an example of this is silly because of his versatility. Other players can't impact the game like Lebron does when he's not scoring well.

Hence efficiency isn't nearly as important for Lebron as it is for players like Durant, Kobe, Rose, Dirk...pretty much you name them.

And the context you speak of needs to be applied. Beating East teams means essentially nothing right now. They literally all are pretty bad. There isn't one East team outside of the Cavs that would have sniffed the 2nd round.

[nathanjizzle]

And I'm telling you that it's not all or nothing.

I'm telling you that very rarely, just aggressiveness alone or efficiency alone (if it's on limited usage) will win you anything.

I'm saying that sometimes being super aggressive can be a good thing...and sometimes it can be a bad thing.

I'm saying that sometimes taking a ton of shots can be a good thing...and sometimes it can be a bad thing.

I'm saying that using Lebron as an example of this is silly because of his versatility. Other players can't impact the game like Lebron does when he's not scoring well.

Hence efficiency isn't nearly as important for Lebron as it is for players like Durant, Kobe, Rose, Dirk...pretty much you name them.

And the context you speak of needs to be applied. Beating East teams means essentially nothing right now. They literally all are pretty bad. There isn't one East team outside of the Cavs that would have sniffed the 2nd round.


im not even going to read this stuff man. if you cant understand it then you never will. lessons over.

[DMAVS41]

more semantics? wtf? no you idiot, let me slow this down for you.
lebron ... being ... efficient ... at ... the ... cost... of .... playing passively .....is .......worst......than.......lebron....playing.... aggressively....at....the....cost....of....efficie ncy.

better?


It depends on the situation and kind of team a player has. Only 1 ball...

Take the 11 Finals for example. If Lebron had jacked it up a ton and forced the issue...I think they would have done even worse. Mavs probably sweep them.

The issue in that series for Lebron was actually his crunch time play and his defense. His defense was horrendous in that series...everyone focuses on the offense, but it was really his defense. He was terrible.

And then in crunch time he didn't do anything at all.

If Lebron plays defense and doesn't choke in the 4th qtrs...the Heat win that series with Lebron deferring to Wade and playing more passively.

If he comes out and forces the issue and plays super aggressive? I think the Mavs would have swept them actually because there was no way Lebron would have been efficient and it would have taken away too much from Wade...and Wade was balling.

All about situation and circumstances.

This Cavs team? Lebron is much better off forcing the issue and playing like you are describing.

You posted about "context" in the OP...but you never use context. You want to just ignore it completely and pretend like it's better to play 1 way in all situations.

And that isn't how reality works.

[ISHGoat]

no point arguing with rose stans, they are irrational when it comes to their idol

[tontoz]

no point arguing with rose stans, they are irrational when it comes to their idol


Tell me about it. This loser has been spamming me with pm's for weeks because i dared to criticize his idol.

[Young X]

Bron isn't a good example because:

- He does so much else besides scoring to help his teams
- He plays in the east where he doesn't face good competition

Durant would never be able to get away with playing this inefficiently because he doesn't come close to matching what Bron does outside of scoring and the Spurs/Clippers/Grizzlies/Warriors would make him pay at the other end unlike the Celtics/Bulls/Bobcats/Nets/Hawks.

[nathanjizzle]

dumbass stat nerds :roll:

[Ne 1]

http://www.niemanlab.org/images/henryabbott.jpg


Where is your God now efficiency dorks.

[nathanjizzle]

http://www.niemanlab.org/images/henryabbott.jpg


Where is your God now efficiency dorks.

:roll:

[nathanjizzle]

http://reboot.theobr.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/nerd.jpg