30+ YO Kobe & Prime "MDE" Shaq playoff ppg and efficiency are extremely comparable

[TheMarkMadsen]

"MDE Shaq".

playoffs

2000: 30.7 ppg on 56% TS

2001: 30.4 ppg on 56% TS

2002: 28.5 ppg on 57% TS


"inefficient chucker Kobrick"

playoffs

2008: 30.1 ppg on 58% TS

2008: 30.2 ppg on 56% TS

2010: 29.2 ppg on 57% TS


funny how the top guy's stretch is the "most dominant run ever" and the other guy was "carried to his rings"

the way ISH talks about the difference between these two guys and these two periods of runs you would think one was 50ppg Wilt and the other was John Starks

[Nick Young]

#howgreatisourgawd
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[ImKobe]

but but but look at Shaq's rebounds

but but but let's ignore Kobe's playmaking and superior leadership skills

[branslowski]

Haters bout to avoid these facts like Eve did god.:oldlol:

This thread= Tree of knowledge.:pimp:

[Quickening]

but but but look at Shaq's rebounds

but but but let's ignore Kobe's playmaking and superior leadership skills

Kobe's playmaking and leadership :lol :roll:

[ISHGoat]

What about defense?

[TheMarkMadsen]

Haters bout to avoid these facts like Eve did god.:oldlol:

This thread= Tree of knowledge.:pimp:

they'll just ignore the OP and try to change the discussion to something totally unrelated to the OP

[oarabbus]

Koberstans are so ****ing shook the guy isn't even playing and they are trying to convince everyone of his greatness right now

[ImKobe]

Kobe's playmaking and leadership :lol :roll:

2009 WCF, 2009 Finals, 2010 WCF

Shaq could never pick a team apart with playmaking like Kobe did in those 3 series, on top of dropping over 30 a night, of course.

35 points 10 assists to close out Game 6 WCF
32/6/7 in the 09 Finals
34/7/8 2010 WCF with 3 straight 10+ assist games, including 36/9/11 Game 3, 38/7/10 Game 4, and 30/11/9 in Game 5

[Deuce Bigalow]

"MDE Shaq".

playoffs

2000: 30.7 ppg on 56% TS

2001: 30.4 ppg on 56% TS

2002: 28.5 ppg on 57% TS
Kobe during the same period

playoffs

2000: 21.1 ppg on 52% TS

2001: 29.4 ppg on 55.5% TS

2002: 26.6 ppg on 51% TS

Not bad Kob not bad

[TheMarkMadsen]

Koberstans are so ****ing shook the guy isn't even playing and they are trying to convince everyone of his greatness right now

http://i.minus.com/iItH1aGyfQjOH.gif

[oarabbus]

http://i.minus.com/iItH1aGyfQjOH.gif


Kobe is a great player but y'all are near biting Wilt stans out here. Not a good look

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe is a great player but y'all are near biting Wilt stans out here. Not a good look

yeah god forbid there's a Kobe thread out there actually giving him props, we need more about how shitty he is :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

ISH loves to spread lies and act like Kobe was some inefficient chucker..

sorry if dropping truth bombs upsets you.. move along and don't respond if it bothers you so much

[Hey Yo]

but but but look at Shaq's rebounds

but but but let's ignore Kobe's playmaking and superior leadership skills
So your implying that Shaq's dominant rebounding made no difference?

[DFish24]

Bran stans/Kobe haters avoiding this thread like the plague.

[Bodhi]

So your implying that Shaq's dominant rebounding made no difference?

It made a difference, but not as much of a difference as Kobe's play making

[TheMarkMadsen]

It made a difference, but not as much of a difference as Kobe's play making

please don't let the haters get off topic, they will avoid addressing the OP at all cost so lets try to keep them on track

[Im Still Ballin]

Fantastic!

Can we now cross-reference Kobe fans and Logic to see if we get any hits!

[ArbitraryWater]

TS% is fun

[TheMarkMadsen]

TS% is fun

ya comparing FG% of a center and a sg and ignoring the 30% difference in FT% would be more objective..

:oldlol: :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

So your implying that Shaq's dominant rebounding made no difference?

0 rebounding titles :confusedshrug: and Kobe outrebounded, outscored and had more blocks than MDE peak Shaq in 2000 WCF Game 7, the biggest game of their Playoff run and a pivotal moment in his stint with the Lakers.

[ImKobe]

TS% is fun

so we should completely ignore the efficiency of his FT shooting when 6-7 points of his scoring averages came from the line.

[Hey Yo]

please don't let the haters get off topic, they will avoid addressing the OP at all cost so lets try to keep them on track
How is it getting off topic when dominant rebounding leads to points and 2nd chance points?

I'll take the scoring and rebounding machine over just a scorer. Just as most others would.

[ArbitraryWater]

ya comparing FG% of a center and a sg and ignoring the 30% difference in FT% would be more objective..

:oldlol: :oldlol:


How about FG% and FT% seperately since they're clearly not the same and can't be lumped together :lol

It's not that hard.

[TheMarkMadsen]

How is it getting off topic when dominant rebounding leads to points and 2nd chance points?

I'll take the scoring and rebounding machine over just a scorer. Just as most others would.

all those rebounds that eventually led to the scoring production and efficiency for Shaq was posted in the OP..

try to stay on topic instead of being shook.

[TheMarkMadsen]

How about FG% and FT% seperately since they're clearly not the same and can't be lumped together :lol

It's not that hard.

it all shows the same thing in the end.. it would be ridiculous to compare FG% between a 7 footer who plays 2 feet away from the basket and a 6'6 SG who plays on the perimeter, TS% is the most objective way to compare scoring efficiency between a guard and a big..

[Hey Yo]

0 rebounding titles :confusedshrug: and Kobe outrebounded, outscored and had more blocks than MDE peak Shaq in 2000 WCF Game 7, the biggest game of their Playoff run and a pivotal moment in his stint with the Lakers.
:applause: you found 1 game.

[Im Still Ballin]

Fantastic!

Can we now cross-reference Kobe fans and Logic to see if we get any hits!
Just ran the data....

No hits

[ImKobe]

:applause: you found 1 game.

The most important Game of their three-peat.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

TS% can be a bit misleading when it pertains to what you accomplish from the field. Game action that includes defense will always hold more inherent value (more FGA than FTA).


How is it getting off topic when dominant rebounding leads to points and 2nd chance points?

I'll take the scoring and rebounding machine over just a scorer. Just as most others would.
Are you legit retarded or merely trolling when you call Kobe "just a scorer"?

[ImKobe]

Just ran the data....

No hits

forgot to log on your alt there bud

[Hey Yo]

all those rebounds that eventually led to the scoring production and efficiency for Shaq was posted in the OP..

try to stay on topic instead of being shook.
Except for the fact that those rebounds didn't lead to all his points.

Who do you think was on the end of the outlet passes after the defensive rebounds by Shaq? Or passed back out an an offensive rebound. I'm not saying it was Kobe every time on the receiving end, but more often than not he was.

[inclinerator]

now put the finals stat, that's where they differ after all

[TheMarkMadsen]

Except for the fact that those rebounds didn't lead to all his points.

Who do you think was on the end of the outlet passes after the defensive rebounds by Shaq? Or passed back out an an offensive rebound. I'm not saying it was Kobe every time on the receiving end, but more often than not he was.

what does that have to do with anything i'm talking about in the OP :wtf:

you do realize that Kobe's numbers in the OP are from 08-10.. ya know.. when he wasn't playing with Shaq :confusedshrug:

[ImKobe]

Except for the fact that those rebounds didn't lead to all his points.

Who do you think was on the end of the outlet passes after the defensive rebounds by Shaq? Or passed back out an an offensive rebound. I'm not saying it was Kobe every time on the receiving end, but more often than not he was.

Who kicked the ball to Shaq when he drove to the hoop and got the attention of the defense? Who threw them alley-oops?

Shaq was assisted on 64% of his buckets in 01, 59% in 02, then you add in the offensive rebounds....

Kobe's the one that's dribbling the ball on the perimeter, who's running his man into screens and who shoots long 2s/3s.

[Ne 1]

Who kicked the ball to Shaq when he drove to the hoop and got the attention of the defense? Who threw them alley-oops?

Shaq was assisted on 64% of his buckets in 01, 59% in 02, then you add in the offensive rebounds....

Kobe's the one that's dribbling the ball on the perimeter, who's running his man into screens and who shoots long 2s/3s.
Great post. Kobe detractors love to say how Shaq commanding defensive attention opened up the game for Kobe but Kobe's pick and rolls also caused the big men to go back. Kobe slashing through the defense broke teams down so they were unable to get back to Shaq. If they couldn't get back, its a problem. Kobe creates for Shaq directly with his penetration and nobody got the ball to Shaq better than Kobe did. Kobe's clutch ability and ability to consistently take over in 4th quarters also helped Shaq tremendously. Defenders stayed on Shaq AND Kobe normally double-teams preferred to leave one of the other Lakers role players open for obvious reasons. Shaq didn't draw Kobe's defenders away or sacrifice his game for Kobe. Kobe did it for Shaq by venturing into the paint and being enough of a threat to draw Shaq's man off him. Shaq didn't play on the perimeter to draw off Kobe's man. Kobe would draw the defense and dish it to Shaq for the slam.

[Cocaine80s]

You realize how easy it is to score when you have the most dominant player in the league on your team?

Look at how much better Kyrie plays now that he has Lebron :applause:

[oarabbus]

yeah god forbid there's a Kobe thread out there actually giving him props, we need more about how shitty he is :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

ISH loves to spread lies and act like Kobe was some inefficient chucker..

sorry if dropping truth bombs upsets you.. move along and don't respond if it bothers you so much


True


I mean it's true he was an inefficient chucker. Great player, but inefficient chucker. Just like AI.

[TheMarkMadsen]

True


I mean it's true he was an inefficient chucker. Great player, but inefficient chucker. Just like AI.



I guess Shaq was then too :confusedshrug:

and if you just wanna go by FG%

playoffs

Dirk: 46%

Ray Allen: 44%

Reggie Miller: 45%

Kobe: 45%

I guess these guys were inefficient chuckers too :confusedshrug:

and Kobe was shooting at higher volumes than all these guys.. still has the same FG%

L

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

True


I mean it's true he was an inefficient chucker. Great player, but inefficient chucker. Just like AI.
Nah.. definitely not true. Dude was above league average in shooting (FG%), elite from the line, and solid from 3PT.

You can say he had bad shot selection, but overall, he was not inefficient. At least in his prime he wasn't.

[Kblaze8855]

So...pretty much Shaq cant shoot FTs and doesnt take threes. Everyone knew that then. Deciding to combine it with his field goal percentage to create a different concept of what efficient means 15 years later doesnt mean he wasnt destroying everyone. The question asked of Shaq in those days was...if anyone was better than him ever. Legit discussions on 2000 Shaq or top of his game Jordan were had...and were reasonable.

In this time period there were wide discussions on if Kobe or Lebron were the best player in the NBA.

Shaq reached a Jordan like "Other than...." status when the best player was discussed.

He was a foregone conclusion #1 for a while.

[Ne 1]

True


I mean it's true he was an inefficient chucker. Great player, but inefficient chucker. Just like AI.
Actually, Kobe's efficiency has always been excellent given his usage and volume. The league average for SG's being around 42-43%, Kobe hovered around 45-47% for most of his career, but you guys have it (wrongfully) drilled in your head that he's a an inefficient chucker. He's performed better than nearly every guard.
The beauty of Kobe's game is that he has very good efficiency, but also a great skill-set, so you get the best of both worlds.

Misinformed people like yourself compare Kobe to guys like Iverson and Melo (hilarious considering Kobe was a significantly better defensive player and also a great facilitator/play-maker) mainly because of efficiency, but Kobe being inefficient over his career is a myth. He has always been efficient relative to league average, even in most of his highest-volume shooting seasons. In fact, he had excellent efficiency over his prime. He was at a excellent +3-4% relative to league average TS% from 2001-2009. That's as good as the "efficiency God" Wade or 2nd 3-peat Jordan. At no point in his career has Kobe been under league average efficency and he takes many last second shots.

[PsychoBe]

So...pretty much Shaq cant shoot FTs and doesnt take threes. Everyone knew that then. Deciding to combine it with his field goal percentage to create a different concept of what efficient means 15 years later doesnt mean he wasnt destroying everyone. The question asked of Shaq in those days was...if anyone was better than him ever. Legit discussions on 2000 Shaq or top of his game Jordan were had...and were reasonable.

In this time period there were wide discussions on if Kobe or Lebron were the best player in the NBA.

Shaq reached a Jordan like "Other than...." status when the best player was discussed.

He was a foregone conclusion #1 for a while.

define "this" time period?

when kobe was averaging 30/5/5 in the finals during a repeat? when jordan said that kobe was better than bran? or was it when bran left cleveland and joined miami and lost in the 2011 finals while scoring 8 points in a pivotal finals game?

you're gonna have to be more specific.

[tpols]

So...pretty much Shaq cant shoot FTs and doesnt take threes. Everyone knew that then. Deciding to combine it with his field goal percentage to create a different concept of what efficient means 15 years later doesnt mean he wasnt destroying everyone. The question asked of Shaq in those days was...if anyone was better than him ever. Legit discussions on 2000 Shaq or top of his game Jordan were had...and were reasonable.

In this time period there were wide discussions on if Kobe or Lebron were the best player in the NBA.

Shaq reached a Jordan like "Other than...." status when the best player was discussed.

He was a foregone conclusion #1 for a while.

How you shoot FTs matters when it comes to efficiency....

[Kblaze8855]

You were alive during the period. The Kobe or Lebron argument was quite popular at the time. Many people on both sides. Topics on West saying Lebron....Jordan saying Kobe...Magic says Lebron...Bird says Kobe. It was an argument. Ups and downs for each...we were all around. Little early to start fabricating history and acting like it wasnt a discussion.

Id say Kobe would win a poll on the issue at some points...then it would lean Lebron towards the end.

Hell Kobe vs Wade wasnt just....totally unreasonable. Wade got a few votes from the GMs as best 2.

Shaq was largely unchallenged. Nobody is literally a unanimous pick for best player. Id say Shaq got closest post Jordan.

[MEB2kDeez]

Actually, Kobe's efficiency has always been excellent given his usage and volume. The league average for SG's being around 42-43%, Kobe hovered around 45-47% for most of his career, but you guys have it (wrongfully) drilled in your head that he's a an inefficient chucker. He's performed better than nearly every guard.
The beauty of Kobe's game is that he has very good efficiency, but also a great skill-set, so you get the best of both worlds.

Misinformed people like yourself compare Kobe to guys like Iverson and Melo (hilarious considering Kobe was a significantly better defensive player and also a great facilitator/play-maker) mainly because of efficiency, but Kobe being inefficient over his career is a myth. He has always been efficient relative to league average, even in most of his highest-volume shooting seasons. In fact, he had excellent efficiency over his prime. He was at a excellent +3-4% relative to league average TS% from 2001-2009. That's as good as the "efficiency God" Wade or 2nd 3-peat Jordan. At no point in his career has Kobe been under league average efficency and he takes many last second shots.

Such a beautiful post...:bowdown:

[Kblaze8855]

How you shoot FTs matters when it comes to efficiency....

Doesnt matter any more than it has for 100 years. Deciding to combine it to create a new single number now doesnt change anything.

Nobody gave a shit what Shaqs TS% was while he was tossing guys aside for 43/19 and 40/24 on 60% and getting whole frontcourts in foul trouble game after game. Put up 40 something points on like 19/30 shooting in the closeout game of the finals...nobody gave a shit what not shooting threes and missing some FTS did to TS%.

Him missing FTs was known then and now. But it didnt much matter when he throws the DPOY into the stands and tears down the rim. I mean really:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKICLZfKMG0


...what the **** is that?

Thats a slaughter(and not even that unusual for him...). I dont care what his TS% was. I never will.

[SugarHill]

How you shoot FTs matters when it comes to efficiency....
Is Durant a better scorer than Kobe ever was?

TS% says yes

[HOoopCityJones]

Is Durant a better scorer than Kobe ever was?

TS% says yes

As far as the better shooter, yea.

[ArbitraryWater]

it all shows the same thing in the end.. it would be ridiculous to compare FG% between a 7 footer who plays 2 feet away from the basket and a 6'6 SG who plays on the perimeter, TS% is the most objective way to compare scoring efficiency between a guard and a big..

Why?

Because bigs are naturally more efficient? Its not unfair, thats just the way it is, you gotta learn to deal with it... accept it.

[PsychoBe]

Is Durant a better scorer than Kobe ever was?

TS% says yes

this guy is trying to say it as if it's an insult :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

kevin durant is literally one of the greatest shooters ever already evidenced by his 50/40/90 season.

but he isn't the scorer kobe is. evidenced by his 81 point game.

[SugarHill]

this guy is trying to say it as if it's an insult :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

kevin durant is literally one of the greatest shooters ever already evidenced by his 50/40/90 season.

but he isn't the scorer kobe is. evidenced by his 81 point game.

Shaq is one of the greatest scoring big men ever.

be he isn't the scorer Robinson is. evidenced by his 71 point game

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You were alive during the period. The Kobe or Lebron argument was quite popular at the time. Many people on both sides. Topics on West saying Lebron....Jordan saying Kobe...Magic says Lebron...Bird says Kobe. It was an argument. Ups and downs for each...we were all around. Little early to start fabricating history and acting like it wasnt a discussion.

Id say Kobe would win a poll on the issue at some points...then it would lean Lebron towards the end.

Hell Kobe vs Wade wasnt just....totally unreasonable. Wade got a few votes from the GMs as best 2.

Shaq was largely unchallenged. Nobody is literally a unanimous pick for best player. Id say Shaq got closest post Jordan.

I get what you're saying, but the reason it was unanimous is because there were no Wade's, LeBron's or peak Kobe's.

You place those 3 in that climate, in their absolute peaks, and there would be more of a discussion. You'd still probably have to go w/ Shaq, but I wouldn't delude myself into thinking there wouldn't be legit discussions as to who the best player was.

[tpols]

Doesnt matter any more than it has for 100 years. Deciding to combine it to create a new single number now doesnt change anything.

Nobody gave a shit what Shaqs TS% was while he was tossing guys aside for 43/19 and 40/24 on 60% and getting whole frontcourts in foul trouble game after game. Put up 40 something points on like 19/30 shooting in the closeout game of the finals...nobody gave a shit what not shooting threes and missing some FTS did to TS%.

Him missing FTs was known then and now. But it didnt much matter when he throws the DPOY into the stands and tears down the rim. I mean really:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKICLZfKMG0


...what the **** is that?

Thats a slaughter. I dont care what his TS% was. I never will.

See.. two points is two points. You don't get extra points for dunking. Shaq's dominance was actually able to be used against him with hack a shaq. It lowered the offensive efficiency of his team and had a negative impact.

Everyone always says 60%..you just said it. It's not really 60% when you are Brick ing tons of FTs, wasting multiple offensive possesions.

with kobe it's always "40% LOL" ... But kobe, possession for possession, produces just as many points in his prime as shaq did in his. And he is a better crunchtime scorer than shaq by a mile. That matters more than you being impressed by a dunk.

[Kblaze8855]

Id take early 2000s Duncan over Lebron...

You could easily compare first threepeat Kobe to Wade....and we were on here arguing that Kobe vs Tmac.

Id say Tmac, Kobe, Duncan, and KG is a pretty outstanding 2-5 in whatever order you put them at the time.

[ArbitraryWater]

people think Kobe is a safer 2 points than Shaq?...........

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Id take early 2000s Duncan over Lebron...

I wouldn't. Not the Duncan that coincided with peak Shaq circa 2000-02.

Duncan in 2003? Sure.


You could easily compare first threepeat Kobe to Wade....and we were on here arguing that Kobe vs Tmac.

Possibly.


Id say Tmac, Kobe, Duncan, and KG is a pretty outstanding 2-5 in whatever order you put them at the time.
Peak LeBron, Peak Kobe and Peak Duncan in 2003 were better players; hence there being more of a discussion in that hypothetical.

[PsychoBe]

Shaq is one of the greatest scoring big men ever.

be he isn't the scorer Robinson is. evidenced by his 71 point game

that's actually extremely arguable despite shaq having more point totals. just like how you'd say that jordan is the greatest scorer of all time, even if kareem is number one.

but then again, robison never had the luxury of going against rik smits in the finals, webber and divac (not exactly a defensive powerhouse front court :oldlol: ), a broken down mutumbo, etc, etc.

swap them and robison would had been feasting too. stop acting like shaq had competition at his position, he peaked when every center that had stopped him from achieving anything had fallen off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XivZd3mRVw

robison literally out-did him in every statistical category in shaq's athletic prime.

just let it go.

[Kblaze8855]

See.. two points is two points. You don't get extra points for dunking. Shaq's dominance was actually able to be used against him with hack a shaq. It lowered the offensive efficiency of his team and had a negative impact.

Everyone always says 60%..you just said it. It's not really 60% when you are Brick ing tons of FTs, wasting multiple offensive possesions.

with kobe it's always "40% LOL" ... But kobe, possession for possession, produces just as many points in his prime as shaq did in his. And he is a better crunchtime scorer than shaq by a mile. That matters more than you being impressed by a dunk.


I dont care if its a dunk or not. I care if it goes in.

And 60% is 60%...missing FTs is missing fts. Playing active 5 on 5 basketball is not the same thing as shooting FTs. Its all points....it isnt the same thing though.

Scorers have always been judged by putting the ball in the basket. Shaq did it.

Forget Kobe....im talking anyone. James Harden TS% the last 3 years is 60 something....cant say I give a shit.

He flops to draw fouls and makes FTs. Great.

Not blowing me away.

Im impressed with his stepback...his handles...he can get to the basket. But I dont much care what his final TS% is. Doesnt do much for me.

Besides....I doubt ive ever clowned Kobe for his shooting percentage. I dont much concern myself with what anyone like Kobe shoots.

From the first topic that came to mind...I was defending Kobe in a topic on his shot selection and shooting percentages:



Dozens of people were great at making tough shots. But many(including all 3 you listed) were never gonna take the shots Kobe does. Not of the kind in question. They made absurd catch and shoot shots...and Hornacek for one made crazy layups around the basket look easy. But im talking the one on one create a shot out of nothing shots. Dan Majerle could wet a 30 footer and nobody was surprised. But hes not gonna:


http://nsa23.casimages.com/img/2010/10/20/101020073828342869.gif

on any kind of regular basis.

Kobes patience, focus, balance and footwork are all immaculate. At times I think he sees too much hate from some because he doesnt shoot well....on shots nobody shoots well.

It does at times come down to poor shot selection but he didnt score 30 something thousand points by not making shots.

I think years of highlights and stat reading have left fans with the idea that making contested midrange jumpers is easier than it is.

Everyone shoots like shit on those shots. A guy like Jordan who at his peak could get 8 layups a night and 2 dunks shoots 48-53% because of them not because hes wetting a high percentage of his turnaround jumpers and pullup 19 footers.

Nobody...and I mean nobody...is gonna make half of their 15+ foot jumpers vs a set defense. If they could they would shoot 60% because they are gonna make 75-90% of their easy layups, dunks, and uncontested jumpers.

Even guys like Wilt who might get 27 rebounds a game 10 on offense and dunk in 8 of them and get 6-7 more easy layups end up shooting about 50% when they are bigtime scorers because you just dont make that many fadeaways.

Now...guys like Jordan, Bird, King, and Dantley...given one on one coverage...10-15 feet...they can work themselves into a shot they can make like 70% of the time. But teams wont just watch them do it(well...they watched Dantley do it). Not that often at least.

You have to contend with doubles, teammates who make shitty entry passes or passes a second late, guys who dont know when to move off the ball to free you up to operate or force a rotation.

Kobe has played with some straight up idiots man. I love Larry Bird and I would take him over Kobe for the record....

But the difference betweem some of Kobes points and a Dennis Johnson....some of Kobes bigmen and a Parish/Mchale...Kobes 2s and a Danny Ainge? Gasol is sefless much of the time. Bynum was an idiot. Shaq played for Shaq and would give you the scraps(he was a great passer...but he wanted the ball first...not that he didnt deserve it).

The Celtics worked to make it easier on Bird. Even Mchale who I believe didnt have the best relationship with him. Dennis Johnson got Bird so many easy looks...Mchale wouldnt let anyone help off him to bother Larry because hes cutting to the basket the second you turn your head....Parish would not get the ball 7-8 plays in a row just keeping his man where Larry could see him. These are HOF talent being selfless playing to the strength of their best player.



Kobe has had that luxury less often. Possibly because hes a dick but whatever the reason...Kobe is fighting teammates as much as working with them. The number of times ive seen Ron Artest fail to even attempt to move his man away from Kobe on the block is disgusting. Or guys like Smush Parker see Kobe come off a screen ready to shoot nd give him that extra long look before passing thats the difference between easy shots and having to faceup and make something happen?

Far too often these days guys see Kobes shooting percentage and hate as if his skill or even...intelligence is the reason.

Kobe is probably as skilled a scorer as has ever been or ever will be. And hes smarter than a fadeaway 20 footer might make one assume if he didnt know why Kobe decided to take it.

What he does not have is the physical tools to make him need to rely on those skills less. Bird is 6'9''. That special tweener size that makes him too big for a 3 and too quick for a 4.

Jordan was Isiah Thomas quick at 6'6'' and could jump over anyone one footed, two footed, coming off a jump stop, or on the move...he also had Dr.J hands that gave him control Kobe never had.

Kobe...is a great athlete but hes not that kind of fast that makes man to man defense irrelevant. Hes strong but hes not the kind of strong that makes Lebron at 270 just drive through guys like they arent there.

And hes got good size but hes not big enough to be a physical mismatch on most wings.

Kobe has all time elite skills and only an above average body to work with. And hes not in the 80s where a team will run off made baskets to get a quick shot or have a center who cant shoot go to the 3 point line because illegal defense rules force his man to go with him.

A lot of things make Kobes life harder than a number of other greats.

And these things make him miss more shots because they force him to fall back on shots NOBODY makes that often more than a lot of the people hes compared to.

Hes not 6'11'' with a 7'5'' wingspan like Durant, hes not 6'8'' 270 with guard athletic ability like Lebron, hes not damn near 6'10'' playing outside forcing guards to check him who cant deal with him in the post or playing inside then stepping out to leave 4s on an island like Bird, and hes not Derrick Rose quick, Melo strong, with Vince carter hops, and Connie Hawkins hands like Jordan.

Now...all those things count which is why if you wanna argue hes not better than some of them you can.

But it does help explain his at times head scratching shot selection.

Comes right down to it...Kobe taking a fadeaway with 4 inches of space is more likely to go in than most of his teammates taking one with 4 feet. Its changed him over 15 years into a guy who kinda forgets those teammates are there.

But for the most part he does the right thing. He does have some pretty good result to show for it....


Ive never really been on Kobe about shooting 45% or whatever.

Not about him. Its about Shaq.

Shaq kicked everyones ass for years...and nobody felt like they could stop him because of what his numbers would look like when you combine him going 17/26 from the field with missing a grip of FTs.

Shaq was a beast. And nobody could **** with him for a while.

[branslowski]

You realize how easy it is to score when you have the most dominant player in the league on your team?

Look at how much better Kyrie plays now that he has Lebron :applause:

So when he averaged 35ppg with Kwame down low, does that then mean Kwame was even more dominant?..:coleman:

[chazzy]

Why?

Because bigs are naturally more efficient? Its not unfair, thats just the way it is, you gotta learn to deal with it... accept it.
Why can't you deal with the fact that there is so much more to a point total than just fga/fgm? It's not trying to handicap big men.. it's just quantifying it all. It's not unfair for big men because they can't shoot FTs or 3s well, that's just the way it is, you gotta learn to deal with it... accept it.

How do you people rank offenses/defenses? PPG and FG%? Or ORTG and DRTG? Because those use TS%..

[Kblaze8855]

Having thought about it for a moment....

On the issue of James Harden vs Kobe....anyone really feel like Harden scores...better?

He has the beloved TS%...but I dont see it when I watch them.

Harden strikes me as frustrating to guard....Kobe seem more...humbling.

Like Harden would piss you off with how hes scoring....you would leave mad. Kobe lights you up I think you leave more...amazed.

You cant quantify the difference....but im sure some of you understand.

[tpols]

Having thought about it for a moment....

On the issue of James Harden vs Kobe....anyone really feel like Harden scores...better?

He has the beloved TS%...but I dont see it when I watch them.

Harden strikes me as frustrating to guard....Kobe seem more...humbling.

Like Harden would piss you off with how hes scoring....you would leave mad. Kobe lights you up I think you leave more...amazed.

You cant quantify the difference....but im sure some of you understand.

using the harden argument to discredit TS or ortg is like using the Horry argument to discredit rings...

Hardens free throw rate is a historical anomaly. And it gets exposed in the playoffs. Kobe's ftr is historically average.. even below average. Hardens whole game is built around drawing fouls. Kobe's wasnt.. at all. He was a shot maker first and foremost.

And yea you're mad at harden because it's cheap as hell.. you feel like you got swindled lol. you respect kobe because he worked you and hit an impressive shot.

[ArbitraryWater]

Why can't you deal with the fact that there is so much more to a point total than just fga/fgm? It's not trying to handicap big men.. it's just quantifying it all. It's not unfair for big men because they can't shoot FTs or 3s well, that's just the way it is, you gotta learn to deal with it... accept it.

How do you people rank offenses/defenses? PPG and FG%? Or ORTG and DRTG? Because those use TS%..

Shaq doesn't need to shoot 3's, and Kobe doesn't need to get a layup/dunk every possession, they score in different ways... I'm not out here trying to combine shit, I'm perfectly fine with the simple fg% and ft%, don't need something else.

[Kblaze8855]

Judging Horry by rings isnt rational because he didnt do the most to win them(though he was often key). Harden by TS%?

The two things arent even similar. "Look at Horrys rings" is a dumb argument that didnt make sense the first time it was used. Harden shooting numbers?Totally reasonable to look at. Hes doing exactly what people seem to want scorers to do. Make FTs and threes to be efficient. Hes a high volume scoring shooting guard who makes his threes and Fts.

Harden is 6'6'' of true shooting percentage. His heart pumps "advanced" shooting numbers.

He isnt some exception.

Hes the posterchild.

[tpols]

Judging Horry by rings isnt rational because he didnt do the most to win them(though he was often key). Harden by TS%?

The two things arent even similar. "Look at Horrys rings" is a dumb argument that didnt make sense the first time it was used. Harden shooting numbers?Totally reasonable to look at. Hes doing exactly what people seem to want scorers to do. Make FTs and threes to be efficient. Hes a high volume scoring shooting guard who makes his threes and Fts.

Harden is 6'6'' of true shooting percentage. His heart pumps "advanced" shooting numbers.

He isnt some exception.

Hes the posterchild.

No hes not lol . Hardens worth is less than his TS.. he exploits officials in the regular season and gets exposed in the playoffs. His style of scoring is pathetic.. and the farthest thing from what you want your go to scorer to do, which is getting buckets, not pretending to get fouled and putting everything in the refs hands. That's unreliable

Hardens FTR since he entered his prime has been ~.57. that means he gets more than half a free throw per shot attempted.

Kobe's prime FTR is ~.38. That's a tremendous difference. Kobe's TS isn't being inflated by some extreme free throw BS like Hardens is. It's barely noteworthy. It's just that shaqs is so bad.. it evens out their efficiencies. And kobe gets more in crunchtime.

If you want to argue shaq.. argue defense, a giant clogging the lane altering penetration. Dont argue scoring.. kobe did it better. Harden is just an excuse that easily refuted

[SpaceJammeR]

so are we saying that kobe was the exact same player as he was in the first 3 peat?? hell no. shaq was forcing double/triple teams making the the game easy for his teammates. and yes kobe was carried in the first 3 peat especially the first ship.

[DFish24]

This same thread was recently created over at the Kobe hating RealGM. Not surprisingly they immediately closed the thread and suspended the OP.:lol Guess the truth was too much for them to bear.

[navy]

All these true shooting percentage users lol. Remind me how they get the formula anyways? The arbitrary way they decided to incorporate fts as well.

[tpols]

All these true shooting percentage users lol. Remind me how they get the formula anyways? The arbitrary way they decided to incorporate fts as well.

Shaqs offensive rating 00-02 playoffs is 113.

Kobe's 08-10 is 115.

There's no way to spin it.. kobe got more points per posession used. you can go watch the tape and tally it yourself. it happened. It's a fact. And it wasn't on some "he got BS FTS doe".. He's just average in terms of that. Shaq was poor. It mattered. We've seen championships decided by a missed FT. happened two years Ago. Shaq missed them at historic rates. Wilt did too and it greatly impacted results. It counts.

[Hey Yo]

This same thread was recently created over at the Kobe hating RealGM. Not surprisingly they immediately closed the threadand suspended the OP.:lol Guess the truth was too much for them to bear.
It was open for over 7hrs and had 81 posts.

:confusedshrug:

[RightTwoCensor]

http://tinychat.com/p0qqj4

[Showtime2001]

so are we saying that kobe was the exact same player as he was in the first 3 peat?? hell no. shaq was forcing double/triple teams making the the game easy for his teammates. and yes kobe was carried in the first 3 peat especially the first ship.
http://s30.postimg.org/iub8nbxqp/11117335_10205494142207211_587409578_n_jpg_oh_fc.j pg

[DFish24]

It was open for over 7hrs and had 81 posts.

:confusedshrug:

Wrong. Currently has 51 views 0 posts. It's on the front page of their player comparison board. It literally has the same title as this thread.

[bigkingsfan]

Their finals MVP during the span was extremely comparable.

[navy]

Shaqs offensive rating 00-02 playoffs is 113.

Kobe's 08-10 is 115.

There's no way to spin it.. kobe got more points per posession used. you can go watch the tape and tally it yourself. it happened. It's a fact. And it wasn't on some "he got BS FTS doe".. He's just average in terms of that. Shaq was poor. It mattered. We've seen championships decided by a missed FT. happened two years Ago. Shaq missed them at historic rates. Wilt did too and it greatly impacted results. It counts.
So? Check the ortg for other players lesser and greater. If they are higher than Kobe's, what is your conclusion?

[tpols]

So? Check the ortg for other players lesser and greater. If they are higher than Kobe's, what is your conclusion?

It depends on volume... there's few that have kobes rate on his volume.. there's few that have shaqs rate on his volume as well. They're both all time in that regard yet shaq gets praised for his FG, while his deficiencies are ignored.. and kobe gets hated on for his FG while his advantages are ignored. That's the only difference.

[navy]

It depends on volume... there's few that have kobes rate on his volume.. there's few that have shaqs rate on his volume as well. They're both all time in that regard yet shaq gets praised for his FG, while his deficiencies are ignored.. and kobe gets hated on for his FG while his advantages are ignored. That's the only difference.
The estimation for ortg is even more complex than the ts%. Take a look at the formula some time. :oldlol:

Volume of what? Possessions? The point of these stats is to make it a metric for straight line comparisons regardless of volume meaning volume is taken into account. (Which is nonsensical)

Field Goal attempts? Touches? Like I said, you can find lesser players with greater ortg than both.

[Kblaze8855]

Hardens TS% is .625 in the playoffs this year. .625. Kobe never did it. Jordan never did it. Shaq never did it. Bird never did it. Wade did it for 5 games...Harden over more than twice that.

What....it only matters when we decide it does?

Dont you advanced numbers people use these things to remove subjectivity?

Cant say Harden isnt high volume...hes scoring 26-27 a game.

High volume...big minutes...

Really...why doesnt Hardens amazing TS% count?

What...we looking at basketball games and making logical decisions that disregard the efficiency advantages afforded him by making 95% of his fts?

What...it only counts when we agree?

Harden is the TS seekers ideal.

It matters in Kobe vs Shaq but not Kobe vs Harden?

Its fine to apply my observations and common sense on the issue of Kobe vs Harden to decide Kobe is the more impressive scorer even with Hardens advantage in "efficiency"...but not Kobe vs Shaq?

We should only go outside the numbers and use our judgment sparingly? Who decides when its reasonable?

You?

[navy]

Hardens TS% is .625 in the playoffs this year. .625. Kobe never did it. Jordan never did it. Shaq never did it. Bird never did it. Wade did it for 5 games...Harden over more than twice that.

What....it only matters when we decide it does?

Dont you advanced numbers people use these things to remove subjectivity?

Cant say Harden isnt high volume...hes scoring 26-27 a game.

High volume...big minutes...

Really...why doesnt Hardens amazing TS% count?

What...we looking at basketball games and making logical decisions that disregard the efficiency advantages afforded him by making 95% of his fts?

What...it only counts when we agree?

Harden is the TS seekers ideal.

It matters in Kobe vs Shaq but not Kobe vs Harden?

Its fine to apply my observations and common sense on the issue of Kobe vs Harden to decide Kobe is the more impressive scorer even with Hardens advantage in "efficiency"...but not Kobe vs Shaq?

We should only go outside the numbers and use our judgment sparingly? Who decides when its reasonable?

You?
:applause:

I keep telling people ts% is an arbitrary stat anyways.

Do people even look at the way in which that fts are incorporated into the formula? This isnt some basic division we are talking about here.

[HOoopCityJones]

TS% is arbitrary , but you guys praise Bigs and Taller wings for having GOAT FG % when they obviously play closer to the basket. You can't have it both ways.

This is why I give Wade his credit, because despite being a guard he has great efficiency , but we all know how he plays, like the complete opposite from Kobe. He rather take an off balance lay up than an off balance 15 footer like Kobe takes on most nights, but that's testament to his skillset, no one holds it against him that he's a poor shooter by comparison. But ofc here on the internet we have to magnify Kobe's weak points to the extent that people act like his entire career and achievements are based on luck of playing with dominant bigs. But it's ok for Shaq to miss Free Throws at his hearts content , that's not an important part of the game at all. Fg% is.

[navy]

TS% is arbitrary , but you guys praise Bigs and Taller wings for having GOAT FG % when they obviously play closer to the basket. You can't have it both ways.

This is why I give Wade his credit, because despite being a guard he has great efficiency , but we all know how he plays, like the complete opposite from Kobe. He rather take an off balance lay up than an off balance 15 footer like Kobe takes on most nights, but that's testament to his skillset, no one holds it against him that he's a poor shooter by comparison. But ofc here on the internet we have to magnify Kobe's weak points to the extent that people act like his entire career and achievements are based on luck of playing with dominant bigs. But it's ok for Shaq to miss Free Throws at his hearts content , that's not an important part of the game at all. Fg% is.

Its all relative, which is why scoring stats should be looked at individually not as a whole. I always say that fg%/3p%/ft% and fga/3pa/fta should be posted seperately in that order. Obviously some people dont need 3 point percentages added as they dont shoot enough to matter and others shoot so many that it should be taken into account with fg%. Not with efg% though. I understand the stat, just dont like it. Just post the percentages and attempts.

Trying to add free throws into that 1 full stat? Give me a break. You cant tell anything about a player if you post ts%. I commend the brain who attempted to do it though.

Let's not act like Kobe fans dont try to find ways to discredit players now. :no:

[HOoopCityJones]

Its all relative, which is why scoring stats should be looked at individually not as a whole. I always say that fg%/3p%/ft% and fga/3pa/fta should be posted seperately in that order. Obviously some people dont need 3 point percentages added as they dont shoot enough to matter and others shoot so many that it should be taken into account with fg%. Not with efg% though. I understand the stat, just dont like it. Just post the percentages and attempts.

Trying to add free throws into that 1 full stat? Give me a break. You cant tell anything about a player if you post ts%. I commend the brain who attempted to do it though.

Let's not act like Kobe fans dont try to find ways to discredit players now. :no:


We repay whats been dished out, that's the difference. If you're a Kobe fan you've heard for years how Kobe only has success because of this or that and knit picking shit like FG% or MVP's when Shaq, considered MDE also only has one. Does that make him any less great than those who have multiple?

No, like you said it's all relative , but I find it odd that you're all so willing to overlook and accept a Bigs weak points in shooting from 3 or FTs, yet it's a downright travesty that 6'6, 212 Kobe isn't able to buldoze his way into the paint for 20 dunks a night or draw the constant contact like Wade or Harden can at the expense of their bodies. Unlike them he has the advantage of being the greatest difficult shot maker ever, so he plays to his strengths like they do theirs. It's a miracle Kobe was even considered an above average high flyer at any point in his career despite his lack of genetic lottery compared to his peers.


Because that's all this is really about isn't it? a few dunks being the difference between 45% and 50% , I could see if these cats were doing what Kobe does but better, yet all they can do is get to the basket at a higher clip, but that's their skill, you appreciate it or praise it and move on. Since when do we discredit players because they can't jump like Vince , shoot like Bird or have the most unstoppable scoring move in NBA history like the hook shot?

This is the logic people use on this forum and others and it makes you all seem like nothing but short sighted.

[SouBeachTalents]

Question is though, who would you take for a 3 year stretch, '00-'02 Shaq or '08-'10 Kobe?

[34-24 Footwork]

Question is though, who would you take for a 3 year stretch, '00-'02 Shaq or '08-'10 Kobe?

You're asking this question because you hate Kobe. But you're too naive to realize that this question/comparison elevates Kobe in a way that no fan boy every could. You're comparing the years of the MOST DOMINANT FORCE IN BASKETBALL with an older Kobe Bryant. :lol :lol

Think about what you're doing. You're hate is blinding you of the respect you have for the Bean deep down inside.:applause: :applause: :applause:

[HOoopCityJones]

Question is though, who would you take for a 3 year stretch, '00-'02 Shaq or '08-'10 Kobe?

Toss up imo. If Pau was as reliable as Kobe was to Shaq earlier in his career, we would have won in 08 imo. But I guess i'd go with three peat Lakers, they were too dominant.

Shaq and Kobe is way more deadly than Kobe and Pau.

[HOoopCityJones]

You're asking this question because you hate Kobe. But you're too naive to realize that this question/comparison elevates Kobe in a way that no fan boy every could. You're comparing the years of the MOST DOMINANT FORCE IN BASKETBALL with an older Kobe Bryant. :lol :lol

Think about what you're doing. You're hate is blinding you of the respect you have for the Bean deep down inside.:applause: :applause: :applause:

This is as well, Kobe doesn't get enough credit for what he did.

[Ne 1]

Question is though, who would you take for a 3 year stretch, '00-'02 Shaq or '08-'10 Kobe?
Shaq, but Kobe doesn't get enough credit for that 2008-2010 3 year stretch though. He put up 30/6/6/2 on 47 FG%, 51 eFG%, 57 TS% including some epic series. 2 rings, 3 finals. Not many have done it better.

His conference finals series:

29/6/4 53% vs. Spurs (who just a year before embarrassed LeBron and were top 3 defense)
34/6/6 on 48% vs. Nuggets (shut down Chris Paul that year and top 10 defense)
34/7/8 on 52% vs. Suns (who after the all-star break were top 5 defense)

Playoff Stats Year-by-Year

2008
30.1 ppg 5.7 rpg 5.6 apg 48fg% 30%3P 81%FT 58TS% 51eFG%

2009
30.2 ppg 5.3 rpg 5.5 apg 46fg% 35%3P 88%FT 56TS% 49eFG%

2010
29.2 ppg 6.0 rpg 5.5 apg 46fg% 37%3P 84%FT 57TS% 51eFG%

2x NBA Champion
2x NBA Finals MVP
1x NBA MVP
1x All Star Game MVP
3x All NBA First Team
3x All-Defensive First Team
1x Olympic Gold Medal


That efficiency is identical to first three-peat playoff Jordan. Crazy. Seriously, compare their FG% on twos, their eFG% and TS%, they are basically the same (though MJ was a better player, scored more points etc etc)

His best series in this span....

34/5/6 on 50% vs. '08 Nuggets
29/6/4 on 53% vs. '08 Spurs (#3 ranked defense and a year before embarrassed Lebron)
34/6/6 on 48% vs. '09 Nuggets
33/7/7 on 49% vs. '08 Jazz
34/7/8 on 52% vs. '10 Suns
32/6/7 + great defense vs. '09 Magic

As far as 3 year runs, the only players I can think of off the top of my head with 3 year runs that I'd say were better were Jordan('91-'93), Shaq('00-'02), Bird('84-'86) and Olajuwon('93-'95).

[funnystuff]

Kobe stans stay leaving out the FG% :roll: :roll: :roll:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Hardens TS% is .625 in the playoffs this year. .625. Kobe never did it. Jordan never did it. Shaq never did it. Bird never did it. Wade did it for 5 games...Harden over more than twice that.

What....it only matters when we decide it does?

Dont you advanced numbers people use these things to remove subjectivity?

Cant say Harden isnt high volume...hes scoring 26-27 a game.

High volume...big minutes...

Really...why doesnt Hardens amazing TS% count?

What...we looking at basketball games and making logical decisions that disregard the efficiency advantages afforded him by making 95% of his fts?

What...it only counts when we agree?

Harden is the TS seekers ideal.

It matters in Kobe vs Shaq but not Kobe vs Harden?

Its fine to apply my observations and common sense on the issue of Kobe vs Harden to decide Kobe is the more impressive scorer even with Hardens advantage in "efficiency"...but not Kobe vs Shaq?

We should only go outside the numbers and use our judgment sparingly? Who decides when its reasonable?

You?

once Harden wins multiple rings playing the way he does we can talk..

Harden hasn't done shit playing the way he does

Haters so shook..

[TheMarkMadsen]

I guess Shaq was then too :confusedshrug:

and if you just wanna go by FG%

playoffs

Dirk: 46%

Ray Allen: 44%

Reggie Miller: 45%

Kobe: 45%

I guess these guys were inefficient chuckers too :confusedshrug:

and Kobe was shooting at higher volumes than all these guys.. still has the same FG%

L


yeah sit down bitch :roll: :roll:

Kobe hater stay making excuses

[ImKobe]

True


I mean it's true he was an inefficient chucker. Great player, but inefficient chucker. Just like AI.

:biggums:

I guess Michael Jordan was also an inefficient chucker in the Playoffs from 96-98, right?

[tpols]

Hardens TS% is .625 in the playoffs this year. .625. Kobe never did it. Jordan never did it. Shaq never did it. Bird never did it. Wade did it for 5 games...Harden over more than twice that.

What....it only matters when we decide it does?

Dont you advanced numbers people use these things to remove subjectivity?

Cant say Harden isnt high volume...hes scoring 26-27 a game.

High volume...big minutes...

Really...why doesnt Hardens amazing TS% count?

What...we looking at basketball games and making logical decisions that disregard the efficiency advantages afforded him by making 95% of his fts?

What...it only counts when we agree?

Harden is the TS seekers ideal.

It matters in Kobe vs Shaq but not Kobe vs Harden?

Its fine to apply my observations and common sense on the issue of Kobe vs Harden to decide Kobe is the more impressive scorer even with Hardens advantage in "efficiency"...but not Kobe vs Shaq?

We should only go outside the numbers and use our judgment sparingly? Who decides when its reasonable?

You?

Harden does not score on the same volume. He takes 16 shots a game. Shaq and Kobe averaged 22 FGAs in their 3 year runs.. Harden scores 26ppg.. kobe and shaq were 30+. We're talking 20-30% volume increases. That can make a big difference in overall efficiencies taking a hop from mid 20ppg to 30+.


Kobe and shaq scored most of their points en route to rings. Harden is in the second round. if harden wins 5 rings averaging what he is now? He'd be in people's top 15 GOAT list.

the thing is..with his style of play, his efficiency can swing wildly because it is so dependant on FTs.. and it's very unlikely hell keep it up to win rings.

So yea.. different volumes, an anomaly ftr.. K blaze go try and find a star guard who shot .6 FT for every shot taken.. you won't be able to find it :lol

harden is like an outlier 4 SD from the mean shooting on lower volume. it's apples and oranges. Kobe and shaq had nearly identical volumes so their comparison is much more linear

[ArbitraryWater]

TS% is arbitrary , but you guys praise Bigs and Taller wings for having GOAT FG % when they obviously play closer to the basket. You can't have it both ways.

This is why I give Wade his credit, because despite being a guard he has great efficiency , but we all know how he plays, like the complete opposite from Kobe. He rather take an off balance lay up than an off balance 15 footer like Kobe takes on most nights, but that's testament to his skillset, no one holds it against him that he's a poor shooter by comparison. But ofc here on the internet we have to magnify Kobe's weak points to the extent that people act like his entire career and achievements are based on luck of playing with dominant bigs. But it's ok for Shaq to miss Free Throws at his hearts content , that's not an important part of the game at all. Fg% is.

How is that "you cant have it both ways" ? Embarrassing way to use that lol...

Just accept that bigs are naturally more efficient. Nooooo.... Kobetards cant have that... only player group that's gotta cry around and make a big ****in deal out of it because their boy missed 55% of his shots.

[tpols]

How is that "you cant have it both ways" ? Embarrassing way to use that lol...

Just accept that bigs are naturally more efficient. Nooooo.... Kobetards cant have that... only player group that's gotta cry around and make a big ****in deal out of it because their boy missed 55% of his shots.

bigs are not naturally more efficient.. offensI've efficiency/impact is dominated by wings waaaaay more than bigs. Look at any rapm chart. Bigs top defensive charts.. perimeter players top offensive ones. Shaq's offense is overrated. His defense is underrated. he's still an MDE candidate because his defense just outweighs kobes by a lot.. so overall he's more dominant but scoring/offense wise kobe was same volume, same ppp, more assist, better crunchtime scoring. Kobe's offense was > . Shaq overall was >.

[Ne 1]

How is that "you cant have it both ways" ? Embarrassing way to use that lol...

Just accept that bigs are naturally more efficient. Nooooo.... Kobetards cant have that... only player group that's gotta cry around and make a big ****in deal out of it because their boy missed 55% of his shots.
The point it's that it's utterly irrational to compare a center who scores roughly 1/3 of his points on dunks and never takes a shot from more than 3 feet away from the basket with a SG on field goal percentage. True shooting percentage is more accurate because it accounts for free throws and three pointers, you can't just disregard something because it's not working your favor. It's obvious which one is going to have a higher field goal percentage.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

TS% is fine (rarely use it myself). It's also used with ORTG and DRTG so if naysayers wanna cite those metrics, think again :confusedshrug:


How is that "you cant have it both ways" ? Embarrassing way to use that lol...

Just accept that bigs are naturally more efficient. Nooooo.... Kobetards cant have that... only player group that's gotta cry around and make a big ****in deal out of it because their boy missed 55% of his shots.
http://hulkster.pp.fi/Gifs/Rage/hunter_hearst_helmsley%20rage%20wwe.gif

[ArbitraryWater]

FG% doesn't "favor" anyone, it simply keeps track of how efficiently you are able to score... don't need any metric for that, and since bigs have an advantage playing closer to the basket, they are better at it... its not unfair, its just the way it is. On the other side, guards have an advantage in the playmaking department, but a dominant big who draws defenders, carves up defenses and puts opponents into foul trouble, can create as many open shots for his teammates as a guard with the spacing he provides.

[Milbuck]

FG% doesn't "favor" anyone, it simply keeps track of how efficiently you are able to score... don't need any metric for that, and since bigs have an advantage playing closer to the basket, they are better at it... its not unfair, its just the way it is. On the other side, guards have an advantage in the playmaking department, but a dominant big who draws defenders, carves up defenses and puts opponents into foul trouble, can create as many open shots for his teammates as a guard with the spacing he provides.
No it doesn't. It keeps track of how you shoot from the field, with equal inclusion of 3PT and 2PT field goals, without FTs. Overall scoring efficiency is different, which is what TS% tries to look at.

Steph Curry is no less efficient a scorer than someone like Dwight Howard despite shooting 10% less from the field...because he makes up for it completely and then some by his shooting from 3 and the FT line, which are both huge factors of scoring.

Even when you look at potential exceptions to the rule like James Harden, who completely exploits officiating and rules to pad FT counts and minimize missed shot numbers, even then it's not much of an exception because technically he really is a super efficient scorer..the problem lies when you try to make TS% into something it's not, when you try to measure ability by it. But all in all when you use it correctly it's a much better stat to keep track of overall scoring efficiency...because that's what it actually tries to do.

[ArbitraryWater]

No it doesn't. It keeps track of how you shoot from the field, with equal inclusion of 3PT and 2PT field goals, without FTs. Overall scoring efficiency is different, which is what TS% tries to look at.

Steph Curry is no less efficient a scorer than someone like Dwight Howard despite shooting 10% less from the field...because he makes up for it completely and then some by his shooting from 3 and the FT line, which are both huge factors of scoring.

Even when you look at potential exceptions to the rule like James Harden, who completely exploits officiating and rules to pad FT counts and minimize missed shot numbers, even then it's not much of an exception because technically he really is a super efficient scorer..the problem lies when you try to make TS% into something it's not, when you try to measure ability by it. But all in all when you use it correctly it's a much better stat to keep track of overall scoring efficiency...because that's what it actually tries to do.

TS% isn't even relevant.. just a bogus metric tring to lump all in one. It "tries" it, great, but I hardly see it outside of ISH, because its filled with flaws.

TS% doesn't even differentiate between 2's and 3's... have you checked the criteria out? Yet it does it with FT's.

eFG% makes up for the difference in 2's and 3's, there we go. Nothing opiniated.

I don't trust TS%.

I like this example.

KB 2005: 43.3 FG% / 33.9 3P% / 81.6 FT% = 56.3 TS%
KB 2009: 46.7 FG% / 35.1 3P% / 85.6 FT% = 56.1 TS%

[Milbuck]

TS% isn't even relevant.. just a bogus metric tring to lump all in one. It "tries" it, great, but I hardly see it outside of ISH, because its filled with flaws.

TS% doesn't even differentiate between 2's and 3's... have you checked the criteria out? Yet it does it with FT's.

eFG% makes up for the difference in 2's and 3's, there we go. Nothing opiniated.

I don't trust TS%.

I like this example.

KB 2005: 43.3 FG% / 33.9 3P% / 81.6 FT% = 56.3 TS%
KB 2009: 46.7 FG% / 35.1 3P% / 85.6 FT% = 56.1 TS%
By no means is it bogus or irrelevant. You just don't understand how it works. It doesn't explicitly differentiate between 2s and 3s, it does it indirectly by factoring in total points and FGA and FTA. Thereby acknowledging the difference in point value between a 2 pointer and 3 pointer. So I don't know what you mean when you say FG% measures scoring efficiency and TS% doesn't, because it's literally the opposite of what's really the case.

And that Kobe example pretty much shows why TS% is a more expansive stat. In 2005 he took 1.8 more 3s a game and shot 3.2 more FTs a game than in 2009. He took significantly more of an inherently more valuable shot and scored more at the line one year than the other. That example only strengthens the argument for TS%, because it shows differences in scoring efficiency that FG% just cannot.

[Straight_Ballin]

"MDE Shaq".

playoffs

2000: 30.7 ppg on 56% TS

2001: 30.4 ppg on 56% TS

2002: 28.5 ppg on 57% TS


"inefficient chucker Kobrick"

playoffs

2008: 30.1 ppg on 58% TS

2008: 30.2 ppg on 56% TS

2010: 29.2 ppg on 57% TS


funny how the top guy's stretch is the "most dominant run ever" and the other guy was "carried to his rings"

the way ISH talks about the difference between these two guys and these two periods of runs you would think one was 50ppg Wilt and the other was John Starks

Good try, but it's common knowledge that shaq has the most dominant prime ever by people that watch basketball and don't just look at stats.:lol

[chazzy]

TS% isn't even relevant.. just a bogus metric tring to lump all in one. It "tries" it, great, but I hardly see it outside of ISH, because its filled with flaws.

TS% doesn't even differentiate between 2's and 3's... have you checked the criteria out? Yet it does it with FT's.

eFG% makes up for the difference in 2's and 3's, there we go. Nothing opiniated.

I don't trust TS%.

I like this example.

KB 2005: 43.3 FG% / 33.9 3P% / 81.6 FT% = 56.3 TS%
KB 2009: 46.7 FG% / 35.1 3P% / 85.6 FT% = 56.1 TS%
That example is exactly why TS% is useful in addition to simply looking at the percentages separately. It accounts for volume and distribution of your made field goals. And factors in the amount of times you went to the line relative to your FGA, not just how well you shot from there.

"Hardly see it outside of ISH?" What? Realgm uses it all the time, especially in their comparison and stat analysis boards.. and most people there are already past the point of understanding how it works. Seem to be a lot more younger/newer fans here who don't get it. A lot more basketball discussion is being had outside of here and twitter lol

[PsychoBe]

Good try, but it's common knowledge that shaq has the most dominant prime ever by people that watch basketball and don't just look at stats.:lol

so we're gonna pretend like shaq had competition at his position? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[sbw19]

If you're anything like me, the first thing you'd pay attention to when opening the scoreboard during live games is who's in foul trouble. What sat Shaq apart was his ability to draw double teams and fouls. Not uncommon during Finals games to find number of Shaq's teammates having better TS% and offensive ratings, why? Were mostly hitting wide-open shots. Dwight Howard had better TS% during his Orlando Finals run than Shaq (and Kobe), but no where near the offensive impact. And it's not just because he averaged 10 fewer points. I made the same argument about how ineffectual taking TS% at face value is in a topic comparing Kobe, Wade and Harden once, Kobe's being the worst of the lot.

Yeah, Shaq gobbled up rebounds, clogged the paint, and passed the ball. But the way he demolished defenses and made it easy for everyone else on his team is why he's self-proclaimed MDE. When he got the ball, typically it's either a foul, a high% shot or a wide-open teammate.

[Straight_Ballin]

so we're gonna pretend like shaq had competition at his position? :roll: :roll: :roll:

What does this have to do with anything? Not his fault that he was so dominant that no one could offer any competition for him.:pimp:

[navy]

By no means is it bogus or irrelevant. You just don't understand how it works. It doesn't explicitly differentiate between 2s and 3s, it does it indirectly by factoring in total points and FGA and FTA. Thereby acknowledging the difference in point value between a 2 pointer and 3 pointer. So I don't know what you mean when you say FG% measures scoring efficiency and TS% doesn't, because it's literally the opposite of what's really the case.

And that Kobe example pretty much shows why TS% is a more expansive stat. In 2005 he took 1.8 more 3s a game and shot 3.2 more FTs a game than in 2009. He took significantly more of an inherently more valuable shot and scored more at the line one year than the other. That example only strengthens the argument for TS%, because it shows differences in scoring efficiency that FG% just cannot.It's definitely bogus. Or perhaps I should say imperfect, as the formulas weights can be disputed.
[quote]TS% = PTS*100/(2*(FGA + .44*FTA))

If you

[Milbuck]

If you're anything like me, the first thing you'd pay attention to when opening the scoreboard during live games is who's in foul trouble. What sat Shaq apart was his ability to draw double teams and fouls. Not uncommon during Finals games to find number of Shaq's teammates having better TS% and offensive ratings, why? Were mostly hitting wide-open shots. Dwight Howard had better TS% during his Orlando Finals run than Shaq (and Kobe), but no where near the offensive impact. And it's not just because he averaged 10 fewer points. I made the same argument about how ineffectual taking TS% at face value is in a topic comparing Kobe, Wade and Harden once, Kobe's being the worst of the lot.

Yeah, Shaq gobbled up rebounds, clogged the paint, and passed the ball. But the way he demolished defenses and made it easy for everyone else on his team is why he's self-proclaimed MDE. When he got the ball, typically it's either a foul, a high% shot or a wide-open teammate.
This goes back to my point about criticizing TS% for something it doesn't try to be. TS% doesn't try to measure someone's scoring ability, for the most part the eye test is the best tool for that. It measures scoring efficiency. So when you talk about how Shaq's teammates often had higher TS% than him, all it means is that Shaq made his teammates better, which is the mark of a true great player. It doesn't mean Shaq's teammates were better scorers than Shaq.

And another thing is, much like any other stat you have to compare like with like. Most stats are useless if we're not going to acknowledge exceptions, differences in roles/situations, etc.

[chazzy]

It's definitely bogus. Or perhaps I should say imperfect, as the formulas weights can be disputed.
When you have factors that are difficult to quantify over a large span of games such as and-1s, techs etc. it's impossible for any efficiency stat to be 100% accurate. The point is that it gives you a MUCH more accurate picture of efficiency than FG%.

Here's an example of how little error there is when you actually factor in these extra scenarios:

https://elgee35.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/ts-errors-2005-and-2006.jpg

Not significant enough to discredit the stat as bogus.


Again I ask, how do you people rank team offenses and defenses? How come no one has a problem when teams are ranked by their ORTG/DRTG?

[Milbuck]

It's definitely bogus. Or perhaps I should say imperfect, as the formulas weights can be disputed.
It's not bogus. Imperfect is the best word for it. No one ever called it perfect, but it is a significantly better tool for measuring individual scoring efficiency than just FG%. If we're going to trash TS% for not being 100% totally flawless, we might as well use nothing but the eye test to talk ball. The guy from the excerpt you quoted even explicitly states the stuff he's nitpicking isn't a huge deal.

[HOoopCityJones]

FG% is even more bogus because it heavily favors the big man, or "lay up" line players like Wade and Lebron, doesn't take into account discrepancy between where certain players play on the floor. MarkMadsen points out that Reggie shot 44% at times, wouldn't that be because most of his shots come from beyond the arc as opposed to guys like Jordan who lived above the rim?

Like I said, some of you FG% stans love to come to the defense of a poor FT or 3pt shooter if that's not apart of their skillset , yet in the same breath look down on Kobe because he's probably not 6'11, or as crafty as a Dwade in getting to the cup or as strong as LBJ to bulldoze his way there at a higher volume as those players.

It's the same ol double standards you guys always apply when it comes to Kobe.

How come I don't see any of you stat warriors shitting on Dirk's low rebound numbers in the regular season for a big? For a big guy you'd think he'd have more double digit rebounding years than a couple years in the early 2000's, but wait , he's proved he can do it when it counts in the post season, that just means Dirk doesn't play as close to the basket as often as most bigs.

[TheMarkMadsen]

gotta love bran stans complaining about and criticizing advanced stats formulas..

is this the twilight zone??

[ArbitraryWater]

FG% is even more bogus because it heavily favors the big man, or "lay up" line players like Wade and Lebron, doesn't take into account discrepancy between where certain players play on the floor. MarkMadsen points out that Reggie shot 44% at times, wouldn't that be because most of his shots come from beyond the arc as opposed to guys like Jordan who lived above the rim?

Like I said, some of you FG% stans love to come to the defense of a poor FT or 3pt shooter if that's not apart of their skillset , yet in the same breath look down on Kobe because he's probably not 6'11, or as crafty as a Dwade in getting to the cup or as strong as LBJ to bulldoze his way there at a higher volume as those players.

It's the same ol double standards you guys always apply when it comes to Kobe.

How come I don't see any of you stat warriors shitting on Dirk's low rebound numbers in the regular season for a big? For a big guy you'd think he'd have more double digit rebounding years than a couple years in the early 2000's, but wait , he's proved he can do it when it counts in the post season, that just means Dirk doesn't play as close to the basket as often as most bigs.

Again spitting your BS% about FG% favoring anyone lol.

Yay, lets scrutinize guys for being able to get to the rim :banana: :facepalm

Must find statistic where he looks good

[HOoopCityJones]

Again spitting your BS% about FG% favoring anyone lol.

Yay, lets scrutinize guys for being able to get to the rim :banana: :facepalm

Must find statistic where he looks good

FG% favors the bigs and drivers as much as TS% favors the shooters.

Yea, because it makes as much sense to scrutinize the guys who play further from the basket. :facepalm

Also for your information I'm not scrutinizing anyone except the dumb ass Bron stans and their backwards ass logic.

The bolded says everything people need to know about you the most arbitrary stat gets your dumb ass wet.

[ArbitraryWater]

Bogus, arbitrary stat like TS%... prefers simple eFG% and FT% "backwards logic"

gotcha :cheers:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe's FG% isn't even bad. It's been above league average.

TS% and eFG% are both ok as long as their within context. Kobe is also above average in those stats.

[Legends66NBA7]

Kobe's FG% isn't even bad. It's been above league average.

TS% and eFG% are both ok as long as their within context. Kobe is also above average in those stats.

His 3pt% is around average or below ?

Thought he could always been better than he was at that regard. His mid-range is money, though.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe's FG% isn't even bad. It's been above league average.

TS% and eFG% are both ok as long as their within context. Kobe is also above average in those stats.

his FG% is just average, no reason to be so insecure about it.


His 3pt% is around average or below ?

Thought he could always been better than he was at that regard. His mid-range is money, though.

also average.. just a horrible shot selection.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

his FG% is just average, no reason to be so insecure about it.
His FG% is above league average, LeBron fan.

[HOoopCityJones]

Bogus, arbitrary stat like TS%... prefers simple eFG% and FT% "backwards logic"

gotcha :cheers:

Bro you have no argument to make, you're just here echoing the sentiments of the LBJ faithful as always, never state your own opinions and just follow the loudest crowd like the fuccing proper sheep that you are.

TS taking into account all of the shooting metrics as opposed to who was just closest to the Basket is Arbitrary? You don't even know the meaning of your own name. You're the definition of a lame my ni99a, real talk.

[ArbitraryWater]

'my ni99a real talk yo, real talk, gotta discredit these bigs for playing at the basket.. thats whassup my ni99a'

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Shaq > Kobe but it's not like that makes Kobe a scrub. Dude is still an all-time great player, just not on the same level as Shaq.

[HOoopCityJones]

Your mind is too far up the next big thing's ass to understand the concept of anything pertaining to Hoops, bruh. Look at you sucking all that Curry d!ck , previously it was Dirk.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

His 3pt% is around average or below ?

Thought he could always been better than he was at that regard. His mid-range is money, though.
Not sure. In his prime, I think he was above league average though.

Dude has poor shot selection; has some major blemishes on his resume, but him being 'inefficient' has always been a myth.

[AirBourne92]

damn nikka. markmadsen is one of the realest dudes on here. too many squares that never hooped a day in their life try to detract from kobe. it's a shame people won't appreciate a GOAT level player

salute
:applause: :applause:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

damn nikka. markmadsen is one of the realest dudes on here. too many squares that never hooped a day in their life try to detract from kobe. it's a shame people won't appreciate a GOAT level player

salute
:applause: :applause:
markmadsen giving himself dap on his alt.

jesus christ :facepalm

[AirBourne92]

markmadsen giving himself dap on his alt.

jesus christ :facepalm

an alt?

before i joined this place i was waiting for like 6 months to find an opening to join.

they restrict the hell out of this place

for like a half a year i was reading you retards post the dumbest ****ing shit here.

now im beginning to realize why i stopped coming here, and never participated as much as i anticipated.

its a cesspool in this forum

[DonDadda59]

Judging Horry by rings isnt rational because he didnt do the most to win them(though he was often key). Harden by TS%?

The two things arent even similar. "Look at Horrys rings" is a dumb argument that didnt make sense the first time it was used. Harden shooting numbers?Totally reasonable to look at. Hes doing exactly what people seem to want scorers to do. Make FTs and threes to be efficient. Hes a high volume scoring shooting guard who makes his threes and Fts.

Harden is 6'6'' of true shooting percentage. His heart pumps "advanced" shooting numbers.

He isnt some exception.

Hes the posterchild.

:roll: :applause:

No point in arguing with advanced stats nerds. They'll go on and on about their arbitrary and context-less stats when it suits whatever agenda they're pushing, but as soon as it's used against them... they try to dance around the issue.

Like you pointed out, James Harden by their own definition, is a better scorer than Kobe because the stat that favors his style of play (relying on 3s and FTs for points) tells us that he is.

But of course now the Bean stans will contradict their own talking point in order to argue against that.

Priceless. :lol

[PsychoBe]

'my ni99a real talk yo, real talk, gotta discredit these bigs for playing at the basket.. thats whassup my ni99a'

reported.

[ArbitraryWater]

damn nikka. markmadsen is one of the realest dudes on here. too many squares that never hooped a day in their life try to detract from kobe. it's a shame people won't appreciate a GOAT level player

salute
:applause: :applause:

dude :facepalm


:roll: :applause:

No point in arguing with advanced stats nerds. They'll go on and on about their arbitrary and context-less stats when it suits whatever agenda they're pushing, but as soon as it's used against them... they try to dance around the issue.

Like you pointed out, James Harden by their own definition, is a better scorer than Kobe because the stat that favors his style of play (relying on 3s and FTs for points) tells us that he is.

But of course now the Bean stans will contradict their own talking point in order to argue against that.

Priceless. :lol

also this lol..

Harden's the exception doe!! I swear!!

[MastaKilla]

markmadsen giving himself dap on his alt.

jesus christ :facepalm

If I want to give myself dap on an alt I'd do it on this account, bitch

[DonDadda59]

Instead of trying to rewrite History with bullshit no one with sense will believe... why not just say 'Kobe took more 3s and was better at shooting free throws than Shaq'? That's all I've learned from this thread :confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

If I want to give myself dap
Too late, you did it on your other alt. :hammerhead:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Too late, you did it on your other alt. :hammerhead:

He's got two alts ready to heap praise. :lol

[tpols]

Instead of trying to rewrite History with bullshit no one with sense will believe... why not just say 'Kobe took more 3s and was better at shooting free throws than Shaq'? That's all I've learned from this thread :confusedshrug:

there's no bullshit about it lol.. you can look at points per posession .. kobe and shaq have very similar efficiencies. it's just a fact.

"Nah yo, Fts and 3s don't count yo. That's bullshit. James Harden doe"

If James Harden averages 26/8 on 60 TS while winning back to back FMVPs? Yea that would be some all time great shit..but his s style is volatile and ref dependant. and we've seen his supposed efficiency blow up in his face when he doesn't get his way with the whistle. So yea.. youre gonna have to find another example.

Guys still think the Horry argument works lol.. exceptions aren't the rule.

Saying how much you score per possesion is the most basic ratio of efficiency. Its the simplest, most encapsulating metric for how well you scored

Nah that's bullshit yo. FG yo. Michael Jordan son.

:hammerhead:

[Milbuck]

The funny part about the people here trashing TS% is that they're the same people who will turn around and use stats like PER, VORP, RPM, etc., a bunch of even more questionable and/or severely flawed stats without any hesitation to prove their points in other arguments. This stat stuff is entirely dependent on what agenda you have to push.

The reality is it's one of the best stats out there to measure scoring efficiency whether we're willing to admit it or not. This notion that FG% is a measure of scoring efficiency and TS% isn't is laughable.

[DonDadda59]

If James Harden averages 26/8 on 60 TS while winning back to back FMVPs? Yea that would be some all time great shit..but his s style is volatile and ref dependant.

Since when did this become a discussion about hardware? :confusedshrug:

His style isn't 'volatile and ref dependant'... it's efficient, by the exact definition you are using.

Harden this post season: 26.3 PPG on 62.5 TS% (16.7 FGA)

Kobe in 2010: 29.2 PPG on on 56.7 TS% (22 FGA)

Harden career playoff TS%: 59.3

Kobe career playoff TS%: 54.1

Again, by YOUR DEFINITION... Harden is the better, more efficient scorer. What is the argument against this beyond you not liking what the advanced stat you champion is saying now? :confusedshrug:

[PsychoBe]

Since when did this become a discussion about hardware? :confusedshrug:

His style isn't 'volatile and ref dependant'... it's efficient, by the exact definition you are using.

Harden this post season: 26.3 PPG on 62.5 TS% (16.7 FGA)

Kobe in 2010: 29.2 PPG on on 56.7 TS% (22 FGA)

Harden career playoff TS%: 59.3

Kobe career playoff TS%: 54.1

Again, by YOUR DEFINITION... Harden is the better, more efficient scorer. What is the argument against this beyond you not liking what the advanced stat you champion is saying now? :confusedshrug:

ts% is never wrong. it also proves that harden shoots at a higher clip than shaq as well :applause:

[tpols]

Since when did this become a discussion about hardware? :confusedshrug:

His style isn't 'volatile and ref dependant'... it's efficient, by the exact definition you are using.


His efficiency is volatile... just take a look at harden's TS from RS to playoffs as a first option.

Harden 2013
RS --> playoffs = 60TS --> 55TS

Harden 2014
RS --> playoffs = 62TS --> 52TS

HUGE dropoffs in efficiency. This.. shouldnt be new to anyone. Its been a pretty popular topic. Thing is this year, Harden has actually gone up in efficiency.. and no surprise, his team is doing better. But it could all crash and burn next round vs the warriors if the rockets even make it there. We dont know yet.

Cant compare numbers from a 10 game playoff sample to numbers from guys who played 12 rounds and 100+ playoff games between themselves in their respective runs. And if you want to widen hardens sample size to match? Youre going to have to use his 52TS and 55TS samples from last year which bring your point to shit. :oldlol:


Kobe and Shaq didnt drop off like that from RS to playoffs. They were both about getting buckets, not tricking refs. Kobe's FT volume and efficiency is completely average for a star guard. Its just that Shaqs combo sucked. And it mattered.. missing FTs wastes possesions just like missing shots. It ended up evening their efficiencies out. And 00-02 vs 08-10 their ppg volumes are identical, success is very similar, its a linear comparison. James Harden's volume and sample sizes arent in line. It doesnt even make sense to compare players in such vastly different circumstances.

[PsychoBe]

Simple... just take a look at harden's TS from RS to playoffs as a first option.

Harden 2013
RS --> playoffs = 60TS --> 55TS

Harden 2014
RS --> playoffs = 62TS --> 52TS

HUGE dropoffs in efficiency. This.. shouldnt be new to anyone. Its been a pretty popular topic. Thing is this year, Harden has actually gone up in efficiency.. and no surprise, his team is doing better. But it could all crash and burn next round vs the warriors if the rockets even make it there. We dont know yet.

Cant compare numbers from a 10 game playoff sample to numbers from guys who played 12 rounds and 100+ playoff games between themselves in their respective runs. And if you want to widen hardens sample size to match? Youre going to have to use his 52TS and 55TS samples from last year which bring your point to shit. :oldlol:


Kobe and Shaq didnt drop off like that from RS to playoffs. They were both about getting buckets, not tricking refs. Kobe's FT volume and efficiency is completely average for a star guard. Its just that Shaqs combo sucked. And it mattered.. missing FTs wastes possesions just like missing shots. It ended up evening their efficiencies out. And 00-02 vs 08-10 their ppg volumes are identical, success is very similar, its a linear comparison. James Harden's volume and sample sizes arent in line. It doesnt even make sense to compare players in such vastly different circumstances.

ether.

bran and jordan stans droppin' like flies out here.

[DonDadda59]

HUGE dropoffs in efficiency.

And with that HUGE drop off, for his career he's still way beyond Kobe's efficiency. What does that say about Bean? :lol


Cant compare numbers from a 10 game playoff sample to numbers from guys who played 12 rounds and 100+ playoff games between themselves in their respective runs.

Fine :rolleyes:

Bron from 12-14 (3 finals trips): 27.9 PPG on 60.4 TS% (19.3 FGA)

Kobe from 08-10 (3 finals trips): 29.8 PPG on 56.9 TS% (22.4 FGA)

Bron is easily the better, more efficient scorer of the 2. No debate from now until infinity. Any objections? :confusedshrug:

[tpols]

And with that HUGE drop off, for his career he's still way beyond Kobe's efficiency. What does that say about Bean? :lol


Thats because hardens highest TS's in the playoffs came when he was coming off the bench scoring on half the volume. :lol

This has devolved from the robert horry argument to the tyson chandler argument smh....

[DonDadda59]

Thats because hardens highest TS's in the playoffs came when he was coming off the bench scoring on half the volume. :lol


So even when they were bench scrubs, Harden was the better and more efficient scorer :oldlol:

This playoffs his TS% is at 62.5 as the clear cut first option on his squad.

Bean never broke the 59% barrier coming off the bench, being a sidekick, being first option in 15 post seasons.

:confusedshrug:

[tpols]

Yes.. this year Harden is playing well.. not shitting the bed. Its 10 or 11 games in doe.. Have you ever taken statz? Sample sizes bruh.. learn em. Roles, 1 to 1 comparisons.. learn em. Volumes.. learn em. I dont have time to be teaching you this shit man.

[DonDadda59]

Yes.. this year Harden is playing well.. not shitting the bed. Its 10 or 11 games in doe.. Have you ever taken statz? Sample sizes bruh.. learn em. Roles, 1 to 1 comparisons.. learn em. Volumes.. learn em. I dont have time to be teaching you this shit man.

James Harden = MDE :bowdown:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

How dumb are Kobe haters that their best idea to throw some shade on him is to compare him to a super efficient MVP candidate this year. :roll:

If Harden maintained his efficiency in the playoffs and had Kobe's defensive ability he would be a 3 time champion by now.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Yes.. this year Harden is playing well.. not shitting the bed. Its 10 or 11 games in doe.. Have you ever taken statz? Sample sizes bruh.. learn em. Roles, 1 to 1 comparisons.. learn em. Volumes.. learn em. I dont have time to be teaching you this shit man.
Hes playing well if u completely ignore defense

[DonDadda59]

Hes playing well if u completely ignore defense

TS%>>>>'Defense'


How dumb are Kobe haters that their best idea to throw some shade on him is to compare him to a super efficient MVP candidate this year. :roll:

How is it 'throwing shade' (since when do men use this expression? :confusedshrug: ) to show that James Harden is the MDE and a better scorer than Beans?

[J Shuttlesworth]

The funny part about the people here trashing TS% is that they're the same people who will turn around and use stats like PER, VORP, RPM, etc., a bunch of even more questionable and/or severely flawed stats without any hesitation to prove their points in other arguments. This stat stuff is entirely dependent on what agenda you have to push.

The reality is it's one of the best stats out there to measure scoring efficiency whether we're willing to admit it or not. This notion that FG% is a measure of scoring efficiency and TS% isn't is laughable.
James Harden has a career TS% of 60.8 and 59.3 career in the playoffs. This year, he's at 62.5% in the playoffs

That's pretty damn elite efficiency

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Harden for GOAT.

:bowdown:

[chazzy]

Why are people using James Harden as if his team wasn't one of the best in the league and they're a game away from WCF? The knock on him, as tpols pointed out, is that he's a lot more ref reliant than most stars, so there tends to be more variance with his efficiency.. See: 2013 and 2014 dropoffs. So far he's been getting his calls, so we'll see if it holds up. Given his history, the burden is on him to prove he can maintain his level of play over a larger sample size

[Milbuck]

James Harden has a career TS% of 60.8 and 59.3 career in the playoffs. This year, he's at 62.5% in the playoffs

That's pretty damn elite efficiency
And I explicitly acknowledged that he has scored very efficiently overall through his career. I also mentioned that TS% is not what many of its detractors treat it as, as sort of scoring ability measuring tool. It isn't that, so attacking it for that makes no sense.

TS% does show in Harden's play as well, though. You look at his previous 2 playoff runs as the #1 guy in Houston. In 2013...60% TS in the RS to 55% in the playoffs. In 2014, huge dropoff of 62% TS to 52%. This year he's getting more of the calls in the playoffs that he didn't last year or the year prior, and is also generally playing a bit better, hence the higher TS%. All it means is that he's putting up points more efficiently.

But if we watch the games we can see that he's still not playing like an actual high end MVP type player, he's had explosive games here and there but overall he hasn't lit it up or anything. Which goes back to my point - TS% measures scoring efficiency and nothing more..to actually apply it to judge a player's ability you need to factor in the eye test and context extensively, much like for any other stat.

[J Shuttlesworth]

And I explicitly acknowledged that he has scored very efficiently overall through his career. I also mentioned that TS% is not what many of its detractors treat it as, as sort of scoring ability measuring tool. It isn't that, so attacking it for that makes no sense.

TS% does show in Harden's play as well, though. You look at his previous 2 playoff runs as the #1 guy in Houston. In 2013...60% TS in the RS to 55% in the playoffs. In 2014, huge dropoff of 62% TS to 52%. This year he's getting more of the calls in the playoffs that he didn't last year or the year prior, and is also generally playing a bit better, hence the higher TS%. All it means is that he's putting up points more efficiently.

But if we watch the games we can see that he's still not playing like an actual high end MVP type player, he's had explosive games here and there but overall he hasn't lit it up or anything. Which goes back to my point - TS% measures scoring efficiency and nothing more..to actually apply it to judge a player's ability you need to factor in the eye test and context extensively, much like for any other stat.
Agreed. Addressing the point in OP, no TS% is going to convince me to pick prime Kobe over prime Shaq if i'm starting a team.

[warriorfan]

The estimation for ortg is even more complex than the ts%. Take a look at the formula some time. :oldlol:

Volume of what? Possessions? The point of these stats is to make it a metric for straight line comparisons regardless of volume meaning volume is taken into account. (Which is nonsensical)

Field Goal attempts? Touches? Like I said, you can find lesser players with greater ortg than both.


that ortg drtg shit is so bad, hate that shit

[TheMarkMadsen]

Agreed. Addressing the point in OP, no TS% is going to convince me to pick prime Kobe over prime Shaq if i'm starting a team.

you might want to go back and read the OP again, because there was nothing about that,,

[warriorfan]

Bro you have no argument to make, you're just here echoing the sentiments of the LBJ faithful as always, never state your own opinions and just follow the loudest crowd like the fuccing proper sheep that you are.

TS taking into account all of the shooting metrics as opposed to who was just closest to the Basket is Arbitrary? You don't even know the meaning of your own name. You're the definition of a lame my ni99a, real talk.


:lebronamazed:

[Legends66NBA7]

that ortg drtg shit is so bad, hate that shit

For individuals it's bad, especially DRTG. They should just use them as team stats.

[Young X]

Why are these stats so confusing to people? They're just points per possession. :oldlol:

[J Shuttlesworth]

you might want to go back and read the OP again, because there was nothing about that,,
So in your OP you're putting it in quotes that shaq was "MDE" and saying Kobe wasn't carried to his rings in 08-10? No shit, I don't think anybody claims Kobe was carried for his last 2 rings, besides trolls. What people say is that Shaq was the better player in his prime, and that he was the best player/#1 option in their first 3 rings.

[TheMarkMadsen]

So in your OP you're putting it in quotes that shaq was "MDE" and saying Kobe wasn't carried to his rings in 08-10? No shit, I don't think anybody claims Kobe was carried for his last 2 rings, besides trolls. What people say is that Shaq was the better player in his prime, and that he was the best player/#1 option in their first 3 rings.

where in the OP does it say anything about picking this guy or that guy in an all time draft based off TS% like you claimed.. :confusedshrug:

you said that was the point of the thread :facepalm

[J Shuttlesworth]

where in the OP does it say anything about picking this guy or that guy in an all time draft based off TS% like you claimed.. :confusedshrug:

you said that was the point of the thread :facepalm
I'm pointing out that TS% alone doesn't put Kobe on the same level as Shaq. They're both top 10 but I'm just not sure what the point of this thread is... I don't think anybody thinks Kobe's TS% is bad.

[DonDadda59]

I'm just not sure what the point of this thread is...

The usual- Bean stans trying to rewrite History to make it seem that Kobe was ever somehow Shaq's equal. TS% is what they're running with today, a stat that skews towards 3 point and FT shooting, obviously something Bean has advantages in. But notice how they keep throwing around the word 'efficiency' but as soon as someone brings up player efficiency rating, then they have a hissy fit.

Playoff PER

Shaq '00: 30.5 (Kobe 19.3)
Shaq '01: 28.7 (Kobe 25)
Shaq '02: 28.3 (Kobe 20.5)

Kobe '08: 25 (Gasol 18.9)
Kobe '09: 26.8 (Gasol 21.9)
Kobe '10: 24.7 (Gasol 24)

Cue the 'advanced stats ain't shit unless they're the kind that fit my agenda' routine. :lol

[mehyaM24]

The usual- Bean stans trying to rewrite History to make it seem that Kobe was ever somehow Shaq's equal. TS% is what they're running with today, a stat that skews towards 3 point and FT shooting, obviously something Bean has advantages in. But notice how they keep throwing around the word 'efficiency' but as soon as someone brings up player efficiency rating, then they have a hissy fit.

Playoff PER

Shaq '00: 30.5 (Kobe 19.3)
Shaq '01: 28.7 (Kobe 25)
Shaq '02: 28.3 (Kobe 20.5)

Kobe '08: 25 (Gasol 18.9)
Kobe '09: 26.8 (Gasol 21.9)
Kobe '10: 24.7 (Gasol 24)

Cue the 'advanced stats ain't shit unless they're the kind that fit my agenda' routine. :lol
brah, do you know what these stats are telling you?

ts% is an efficiency SHOOTING/scoring metric. per is an ALL AROUND efficiency metric. if you want to compare actual impact, use rapm or rpm which separates the individual aspect.

from what i am seeing itt, kobe fans are using ts% to show kobe was just as efficient as shaq given the volume (again, just scoring) - nothing wrong with that.

as long as they're not saying he was a better player, there should be no qualms with what the op is saying - and i ALWAYS disagree with op.

[Ne 1]

FG% is already included in TS% anyway. All TS% is doing is adding the FT's and extra value of threes. There's nothing "advanced" about it. Seriously raw FG% is only useful if you're comparing 2 players who never shoot 3s. :oldlol:

Sorry, but a stat that doesn't include the extra value of threes or the worth of FT's is pretty useless for determining actual efficiency. Seriously, how stupid do you have to be to not understand this? A player can go 10/20 (HOLY SHIT! 50%!), but still be inefficient because he's not getting to the line or hitting threes, so he's not generating as many points per possession.
TS% isn't perfect, but it captures the scoring efficeincy well enough, and is the best option we have.

[tpols]

Damnnn.. PER getting brought out....

don dadda loading missiles on top his humvee.. blasting kobe stans into infinity with the press of a button. :eek: :eek:





Sike !

we roaches bro.. despite death being seemingly certain, we emerge a short time later ready to wreck your arguments to shit and decay ... We take everything you've said and decompose it . Break it down and recycle it .. Your knowledge will live on forever.:bowdown:

[TheMarkMadsen]

they'll just ignore the OP and try to change the discussion to something totally unrelated to the OP

did I call this or what

:oldlol: :oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

brah, do you know what these stats are telling you?

That advanced stats should be viewed as nothing more than a gimmick. :confusedshrug:

Naturally any stat that skews toward 3pt shooting ad FTs is going to favor players who have an over reliance on those methods to score. Hence why you can make the argument that James Harden today>Prime Shaq (:roll: )


ts% is an efficiency SHOOTING/scoring metric. per is an ALL AROUND efficiency metric. if you want to compare actual impact, use rapm or rpm which separates the individual aspect.

Or I could just use the eye test and good ole fashioned regular ass stats.

Advanced stats without any sort of context are about as useful as lips on a chicken. Yeah I said it. I remember recently Yao Ming's left nut trying to convince people that Bean faced better defenses than MJ (disregarding young Bean's career overlap naturally) because of DRTG and Bean facing more teams with sub 100 ratings. And of course once I brought up the fact that John Havlicek won 8 championships playing against virtually exclusively against sub 100 DRTG teams (sometimes sub 90), all of a sudden that particular advanced stat wasn't the gold mine it just had been.

But if people want to pretend James Harden right now is a better, more efficient scorer than either prime Shaq and prime Beans because TS% says so... believe what your heart and advanced stats tell you. :cheers:

[DonDadda59]

Damnnn.. PER getting brought out....

don dadda loading missiles on top his humvee.. blasting kobe stans into infinity with the press of a button. :eek: :eek:





Sike !

we roaches bro.. despite death being seemingly certain, we emerge a short time later ready to wreck your arguments to shit and decay ... We take everything you've said and decompose it . Break it down and recycle it .. Your knowledge will live on forever.:bowdown:

James Harden>MDE>Prime Beans

Si or no? :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

James Harden>MDE>Prime Beans

Si or no? :confusedshrug:

when Harden can maintain those numbers over the course of consecutive championship runs we can talk

[DonDadda59]

when Harden can maintain those numbers over the course of consecutive championship runs we can talk

Who's talking about championships? We're talking about 'efficiency' here. But OK, sample size yadda yadda yadda...

James Harden 2 rounds 2015: .625 TS%
Beans 2 rounds 2003 (arguably his best individual season): .531 TS%
Diesel 2 rounds 2003: .570 TS%

James Harden>MDE>Prime Kobe.

Si or no? :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Who's talking about championships? We're talking about 'efficiency' here. But OK, sample size yadda yadda yadda...

James Harden 2 rounds 2015: .625 TS%
Beans 2 rounds 2003 (arguably his best individual season): .531 TS%
Diesel 2 rounds 2003: .570 TS%

James Harden>MDE>Prime Kobe.

Si or no? :confusedshrug:

:biggums:

you just brushed aside sample size as if there is no difference between maintaining your efficiency over 12 games and maintaining your efficiency over 20+ while winning the championship.. which there obviously is a HUGE DIFFERENCE

and then picked a playoff run where Kobe had a torn labrum for 2 series to compare..

:facepalm

is this dude serious??

[tpols]

James Harden>MDE>Prime Beans

Si or no? :confusedshrug:

I only speak american. And back to back champion.. Lo siento mi amigo

[DonDadda59]

:biggums:

you just brushed aside sample size as if there is no difference between maintaining your efficiency over 12 games and maintaining your efficiency over 20+ while winning the championship.. which there obviously is a HUGE DIFFERENCE

Lakers won the championship after playing 16 games in 2001. Tomorrow will be the Beard's 12th game of the postseason and he's still only in the second round. When the beard was just a mustache, he played 17 games in '11 and 20 games in '12... had TS% of 63.4 and 60.5 respectively.

So...

Beard>MDE>Beans

Si or no? :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Lakers won the championship after playing 16 games in 2001. Tomorrow will be the Beard's 12th game of the postseason and he's still only in the second round. When the beard was just a mustache, he played 17 games in '11 and 20 games in '12... had TS% of 63.4 and 60.5 respectively.

So...

Beard>MDE>Beans

Si or no? :confusedshrug:

thanks to Kobe going for 33/7/7 on 58% TS through the first 3 rounds :oldlol:

not helping yourself with that...

and a huge LOL at comparing 11 Harden and 12 Harden's efficiency when he was taking 10 shots per game while Shaq/Kobe were taking both taking 20+ during these 3 straight trips to the finals..

you are getting destroyed :oldlol:

[TheMarkMadsen]

and where does it say in the OP Kobe>Shaq.. it literally just says the scoring and efficiency is comparable

people in here catching feels :lol :lol

[34-24 Footwork]

Analytics is KILLING basketball. Kobe is, and probably will forever be the greatest 2 guard in basketball history.

The fact that people compare his FG % to Shaq's to disparage him only puts him on a pedestal. The scoring output from Kobe on those 3 peat teams was equal to Shaq's in the playoffs. I dont wanna hear about a 800lb gorilla "shooting" 60% from the field. Those teams don't threepeat without Kobe's scoring output or perimeter defense.

Just deal with it.....

I know those particular rings dont bother you guys. It's the other ones that he wasn't "supposed to win without Shaq".

That angers some of you :rant :rant ...it's ok.

He'll go down as one of the few players in SPORTS HISTORY to win championships with the same franchise but COMPLETELY DIFFERENT teams.

[DonDadda59]

thanks to Kobe going for 33/7/7 on 58% TS through the first 3 rounds :oldlol:

Wasn't he taking like 22+ FGA? :no:

26.3 on 62.5 TS% (16.7 FGA)>>>

Dominant and Efficient. :bowdown:


and a huge LOL at comparing 11 Harden and 12 Harden's efficiency when he was taking 10 shots per game while Shaq/Kobe were taking both taking 20+ during these 3 straight trips to the finals..

Mustache '11-'12 (WCF & Finals): 14.8 PPG on 61.6 TS% (9.5 FGA)
Young Beans '98-'99 (WCF & 2nd Round): 13.4 PPG on 50.2 TS% (11.5 FGA)

Looks like it doesn't matter what their roles are, how many minutes they play, etc... Beard>>>Beans as a scorer.

Tell me where I told a lie :confusedshrug:



you are getting destroyed :oldlol:

Right. Right. If that helps you sleep tonight. Right on. :cheers:

[SouBeachTalents]

Analytics is KILLING basketball. Kobe is, and probably will forever be the greatest 2 guard in basketball history.

The fact that people compare his FG % to Shaq's to disparage him only puts him on a pedestal. The scoring output from Kobe on those 3 peat teams was equal to Shaq's in the playoffs. I dont wanna hear about a 800lb gorilla "shooting" 60% from the field. Those teams don't threepeat without Kobe's scoring output or perimeter defense.

Just deal with it.....

I know those particular rings dont bother you guys. It's the other ones that he wasn't "supposed to win without Shaq".

That angers some of you :rant :rant ...it's ok.

He'll go down as one of the few players in SPORTS HISTORY to win championships with the same franchise but COMPLETELY DIFFERENT teams.

Both false. Shaq outscored him in every playoff run, although '02 was close and '01 was very close, but 2000 was by a substantial margin. And Jordan > Kobe

[Yao Ming's Foot]

That advanced stats should be viewed as nothing more than a gimmick. :confusedshrug:

Naturally any stat that skews toward 3pt shooting ad FTs is going to favor players who have an over reliance on those methods to score. Hence why you can make the argument that James Harden today>Prime Shaq (:roll: )


:biggums:

Why wouldn't you include 3pt shooting and FT shooting when talking about scoring efficiency?

Two players can have identical FG% percentages but if one of them is shooting mostly 3s, drawing lots of fouls, and hitting FTs at a high rate they are much more impactful on the team's offense than a player that does none of those things.

Its common sense. :facepalm

[34-24 Footwork]

I meant to say the second greatest 2 guard

[DonDadda59]

:biggums:

Why wouldn't you include 3pt shooting and FT shooting when talking about scoring efficiency?

Two players can have identical FG% percentages but if one of them is shooting mostly 3s, drawing lots of fouls, and hitting FTs at a high rate they are much more impactful on the team's offense than a player that does none of those things.

Its common sense. :facepalm

So you agree that James Harden today>MDE Shaq? :confusedshrug:

A simple yes or no will suffice. :cheers:

[34-24 Footwork]

Both false. Shaq outscored him in every playoff run, although '02 was close and '01 was very close, but 2000 was by a substantial margin. And Jordan > Kobe

Serious question....how mad were you when Kobe got two more rings?

[tpols]

:biggums:

Why wouldn't you include 3pt shooting and FT shooting when talking about scoring efficiency?

Two players can have identical FG% percentages but if one of them is shooting mostly 3s, drawing lots of fouls, and hitting FTs at a high rate they are much more impactful on the team's offense than a player that does none of those things.

Its common sense. :facepalm


There is a saying amongst those educated.... "let the village simpleton speak, forth from his ventricles sprougst untold wisdom!"

You best not disturb... for we look to gain bountiful knowledge!

[DonDadda59]

There is a saying amongst those educated.... "let the village simpleton speak, forth from his ventricles sprougst untold wisdom!"

You best not disturb... for we look to gain bountiful knowledge!

Can't help but notice you nigguhs just plain refuse to answer a simple question for whatever reason.

Like I said above... a simple yes or no will suffice. You don't even have to give an explanation.

James Harden today>MDE>Beans

Si or no? :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Can't help but notice you nigguhs just plain refuse to answer a simple question for whatever reason.

Like I said above... a simple yes or no will suffice. You don't even have to give an explanation.

James Harden today>MDE>Beans

Si or no? :confusedshrug:

you are comparing a possible 2nd round exit to 3 straight finals trips and acting like the gap in games played has no effect on efficiency..

if Harden can win consecutive titles putting up 28-30 ppg on 57% TS then we can talk but until then..

nobody can take you seriously with that shit :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So you agree that James Harden today>MDE Shaq? :confusedshrug:

A simple yes or no will suffice. :cheers:

Are you simple or something?

TS% measures efficiency... so if you are asking who has been more efficient this postseason the answer is yes so far. It's not an opinion based question.

[Micku]

So you agree that James Harden today>MDE Shaq? :confusedshrug:

A simple yes or no will suffice. :cheers:

I know this isn't directed at me, but in terms of scoring efficiency, yes.

Despite his low FG% outage, he get FTs and shoot the 3pter very well.

Take Shaq in 96 for example. He took 18.0 FGA in the playoffs, shot 60%, and end up with 25.8 ppg. That's great. Harden this year took 16.7 FGA, shooting 43.5% and is averaging 26.3 ppg.

Harden is not only taking less shots, he is averaging more points slightly despite his significantly low FG%. It's because of his ability to make a 3pt shot and flop to the FT line. And he is shooting over 90% from there. And Shaq took more FTs than him, but Harden could convert them. So, Harden is the most efficient scorer. But that's all that it means.

It doesn't mean he is the better player. Who is harder to stop while the defense is active, who can draw the most attention, and etc you can argue that. If the refs aren't calling the fouls, then it'll easier to contain Harden over Shaq for a stretch, but Harden is a master at flopping his way to the basket.

That's pretty much it. If you get more points with less FGA, then you're a more efficient scorer. But also you got to consider volume and stuff.

[DonDadda59]

you are comparing a possible 2nd round exit to 3 straight finals trips and acting like the gap in games played has no effect on efficiency..

if Harden can win consecutive titles putting up 28-30 ppg on 57% TS then we can talk but until then..

nobody can take you seriously with that shit :oldlol: :oldlol:

That's a lot of words for a simple yes or no question. :confusedshrug:

Already showed you that it doesn't matter how many minutes, games, rounds, what roles they play, etc.

Beard will always trump prime Shaq and Kobe in 'efficiency'.

So I'm just gonna go ahead and mark you down as a 'yes' on the Beard>MDE>Beans question.


the answer is yes

Bold :eek:

Beard = MDE, GOAT rolled into one :bowdown:

[DonDadda59]

I know this isn't directed at me, but in terms of scoring efficiency, yes.

Despite his low FG% outage, he get FTs and shoot the 3pter very well.

Take Shaq in 96 for example. He took 18.0 FGA in the playoffs, shot 60%, and end up with 25.8 ppg. That's great. Harden this year took 16.7 FGA, shooting 43.5% and is averaging 26.3 ppg.

Harden is not only taking less shots, he is averaging more points slightly despite his significantly low FG%. It's because of his ability to make a 3pt shot and flop to the FT line. And he is shooting over 90% from there. And Shaq took more FTs than him, but Harden could convert them. So, Harden is the most efficient scorer. But that's all that it means.

It doesn't mean he is the better player. Who is harder to stop while the defense is active, who can draw the most attention, and etc you can argue that. If the refs aren't calling the fouls, then it'll easier to contain Harden over Shaq for a stretch, but Harden is a master at flopping his way to the basket.

That's pretty much it. If you get more points with less FGA, then you're a more efficient scorer.

F*ck outta here with context. :whatever:

I want black and white. Advanced stats arguments only.

Beard>MDE>Beans

/Thread.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Definitely simple..

Who hops into a thread about points per game and efficiency and whines about "advanced stats" being used? :roll:

How else are we supposed to discuss those specific topics? With straw man arguments and emoticons?

[Micku]

F*ck outta here with context. :whatever:

I want black and white. Advanced stats arguments only.

Beard>MDE>Beans

/Thread.

Well, the beard is the source of efficiency. If Shaq had da beard, he'll be more efficient. Instead, he looks like an egg.

[The Iron Fist]

How is it getting off topic when dominant rebounding leads to points and 2nd chance points?

I'll take the scoring and rebounding machine over just a scorer. Just as most others would.
Oh, you mean like game 7 when Kobe grabbed 15 boards?

[chazzy]

Dondadda stawmanning the hell out of this thread. Can't understand that being more efficient doesn't necessarily mean you're better overall, so resorts to middle school debate tactics. You just can't accept that near end-prime Kobe was comparably efficient to Shaq and even 2nd 3peat MJ, which goes against the agenda you've been spouting for years.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dondadda stawmanning the hell out of this thread. Can't understand that being more efficient doesn't necessarily mean you're better overall, so resorts to middle school debate tactics. You just can't accept that near end-prime Kobe was comparably efficient to Shaq and even 2nd 3peat MJ, which goes against the agenda you've been spouting for years.

If anyone is strawmanning its you..... Kobe fans putting their entire weight on TS%, even going as far as saying Kobe is a better offensive player than Shaq (:roll:), and try to prove it by TS%.... so James Harden is also comparably efficient to 3-peat M.O.D Shaquille O'Neal or nah?

Because not many other advanced statistics show any similaritys in effectiveness between Shaq and Kobe.... while other metrics that try to gauge ones game in its entirety (although missing out defensively which would only help Kobe ranked against all-time bigs), all display pretty much the same thing, Shaq >> Kobe.

[PsychoBe]

So you agree that James Harden today>MDE Shaq? :confusedshrug:

A simple yes or no will suffice. :cheers:

harden was more efficient than jordan as well :applause:

let that sink in.

[tpols]

If anyone is strawmanning its you..... Kobe fans putting their entire weight on TS%, even going as far as saying Kobe is a better offensive player than Shaq (:roll:), and try to prove it by TS%.... so James Harden is also comparably efficient to 3-peat M.O.D Shaquille O'Neal or nah?

Because not many other advanced statistics show any similaritys in effectiveness between Shaq and Kobe.... while other metrics that try to gauge ones game in its entirety (although missing out defensively which would only help Kobe ranked against all-time bigs), all display pretty much the same thing, Shaq >> Kobe.

Harden right now is more efficient than MDE shaq.. 62 TS and 119 ortg > 57 TS and 113 ortg... it's a fact James Harden is not only more efficient, but a lot more efficient. It's only been 11 games though versus shaqs 60 or so.. the sample sizes are too far apart to make a meaningful comparison.

All Advanced stats don't say shaq is more impactful offensively.. kobe and shaq both have peak 6+ offensive rapms.. kobe has a higher playoff ortg for 00-02 vs 08-10.. there are multiple advanced stats saying they have same impact/efficiency or kobe is better.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Ok, you guys have convinced me. Kobe is now officially over Shaq in my top 10 GOAT list.

:applause:

[DonDadda59]

harden was more efficient than jordan as well :applause:

let that sink in.

There's a new GOAT in dodge. Truly, he is the king of kings :bowdown:

MJ taking bearded Ls watching the most efficient player ever destroy his legend.

http://whatgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/funny-gifs-when-you-see-that-hot-girls-new-ugly-boyfriend.gif

Advanced stats FTW :applause:

[mehyaM24]

durant & alex english were more efficient than jordan as well

efficiency =/= dominance

you need to separate the two, doda

[HOoopCityJones]

DonDadda getting raped in this thread.

[mehyaM24]

DonDadda getting raped in this thread.
doda needs to educate himself, and realize 'ts% =/= better'

ts% only tells you a players scoring efficiency. NOT the impact it carries (scoring) or how much better said player is than the other.

its actually pretty simple - not sure why posters are going off tangents and using remedial counter arguments that have little to do with the topic.

[DonDadda59]

DonDadda getting raped in this thread.

The beard turns 'no means no' into 'yes'. Gives new meaning to 'Most Dominant Ever'.

We are all powerless to stop him. Truly the new GOAT. :bowdown:

[HOoopCityJones]

The sad part is you think you sound clever doing the plug my ears and scream "lalala" routine , but all it does is make you seem shook as fucc.

[DonDadda59]

The sad part is you think you sound clever doing the plug my ears and scream "lalala" routine , but all it does is make you seem shook as fucc.

This. 100% this. :applause:

[PsychoBe]

dondadda meltdown commencing :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DonDadda59]

dondadda meltdown commencing :roll: :roll: :roll:

Hide yo kids. Hide yo wife.

Beard>MDE
Beard>Beans
Beard>Captain Marvel

Advanced Stats :applause:

[Ne 1]

TS% is not a player ranking stat, it just tells you how efficiently a player is scoring. It's not flawless but so far it is the best stat to measure efficiency, taking into account every shot (2 PT, 3 PT and FT). TS% combined with volume is quite telling but it doesn't imply that one player is better than another. You're misusing it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Bean haters fuming that they can no longer call Kobe "inefficient". :oldlol:

Reminds me of the LeBron fans' recent mysterious downplaying of advance stats. Hah!

[Optimus Prime]

all those rebounds that eventually led to the scoring production and efficiency for Shaq was posted in the OP..

try to stay on topic instead of being shook.

:lol :bowdown:

LeBeta stans are super shook. Their only arguments are "Kobe is a chucker!" and "Carried!", but the numbers completely destroy those lies. That's why I love facts.

:kobe:

[Micku]

Bean haters fuming that they can no longer call Kobe "inefficient". :oldlol:

Reminds me of the LeBron fans' recent mysterious downplaying of advance stats. Hah!

He still could've been better. Dude had bad shot selection. Sometimes I find his game amazing, especially when he was on, then his bad shot selection just becomes a highlight reel. Other times it just pisses me off.

And his defense is overrated. He isn't consistent. But I'm about to go on a rant about all of this, so I'mma stop myself. The beard is the truth doe.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He still could've been better. Dude had bad shot selection. Sometimes I find his game amazing, especially when he was on, then his bad shot selection just becomes a highlight reel. Other times it just pisses me off.

And his defense is overrated. He isn't consistent. But I'm about to go on a rant about all of this, so I'mma stop myself. The beard is the truth doe.
Yeah no doubt. I said as much pages ago; Kobe's problem has always been his inconsistency in his approach. Either he's playing within the system or he's jacking up shots (sometimes they go in, sometimes they don't). I'm not really a fan of his play because of that; it comes off as selfish.

The fact remains though is dude from an overall standpoint has been relatively efficient. Certainly above league average, which destroys the "inefficient" myths.

[sbw19]

Yeah no doubt. I said as much pages ago; Kobe's problem has always been his inconsistency in his approach. Either he's playing within the system or he's jacking up shots (sometimes they go in, sometimes they don't). I'm not really a fan of his play because of that; it comes off as selfish.
It's about taking a lot of difficult shots rather than not playing within the system imo. Consider that only 9% of James Harden's 2pt makes are assisted so far in the playoffs, for an 11-game sample that's rather outrageous.