As a Lebron fan, i'm losing faith in advanced stats

[Donkey4trading]

as a true lebron fan I go on bball reference after every game to check the box score and recently ive been noticing something strange and im beginning to think i've put too much credence into thinking these advanced stats are as important as i believed

here are my findings.. 2015 playoffs....

WS/48

Kyrie .205
Tristan .198
Shumpert .174
JR Smith .149
Lebron .142

WS

Kyrie 1.6
Tristan 1.3
Shump/Lebron 1.2

OWS

Kyrie 1.2
Tristan 1.0
Shump .8
Smith/Lebron .4


these advanced stats don't even begin to tell the story... Lebron the 4th best player on his team in these playoffs so far according to advanced stats??

:rolleyes: :biggums:

Lebron has clearly been the Cavs best player, i can't believe i was led to believe so highly in advanced stats :facepalm :facepalm

[J Shuttlesworth]

http://media3.giphy.com/media/B37cYPCruqwwg/giphy.gif

[DMAVS41]

For starters, the sample is really small...

However, why are Lebron fans so incapable of admitting how shit he was overall in this series outside a fantastic game 5?

He was really really really bad outside that 1 game. Just because you win a series doesn't make you or how you played better than reality.

Lebron had a really poor series overall outside of game 5 and won because his teammates stepped up and his opponent was a scrub.

It's not complicated.

Stats, even advanced stats, are simply recordings of what happened on the floor. They do not tell you the best player....at least no single stat ever will.

[Kvnzhangyay]

For starters, the sample is really small...

However, why are Lebron fans so incapable of admitting how shit he was overall in this series outside a fantastic game 5?

He was really really really bad outside that 1 game. Just because you win a series doesn't make you or how you played better than reality.

Lebron had a really poor series overall outside of game 5 and won because his teammates stepped up and his opponent was a scrub.

It's not complicated.

Stats, even advanced stats, are simply recordings of what happened on the floor. They do not tell you the best player....at least no single stat ever will.

He had an absolute shit shooting series, yet, but his impact was decent (positive at least).

Like for example, in game 6

The stats are decent (nobody would complain if Jason Kidd had that line), but don't really tell the whole story. Thibs was going down with his defense and kept both Noah and Gibson in the game most of the time to protect the paint. Out on the perimeter they decided to send help towards James and took the risk of guys like Delly beating them. James made the passes, and Delly and the rest delivered. And it wasn't always that James always made the home-run pass as he likes to do. JR passed up a good shot to get Delly a better shot. Shumpert ended up with 4 assists because he moved the ball.

Because Thibs refused to go with a more offensive lineup, James was able to strangle the Bulls by controlling pace, cutting down on transition, cutting down on turnovers, and matching their scores.

[livinglegend]

For starters, the sample is really small...

However, why are Lebron fans so incapable of admitting how shit he was overall in this series outside a fantastic game 5?

He was really really really bad outside that 1 game. Just because you win a series doesn't make you or how you played better than reality.

Lebron had a really poor series overall outside of game 5 and won because his teammates stepped up and his opponent was a scrub.

It's not complicated.

Stats, even advanced stats, are simply recordings of what happened on the floor. They do not tell you the best player....at least no single stat ever will.

Yeah, Lebron wasn't great in 2nd round series.
But let's be real, his teammates played well because of all the attention that Bulls gave Lebron on defense. They wouldn't play nearly as well if you replaced Lebron for a guy like Melo.

[livinglegend]

He had an absolute shit shooting series, yet, but his impact was decent (positive at least).

Like for example, in game 6

The stats are decent (nobody would complain if Jason Kidd had that line), but don't really tell the whole story. Thibs was going down with his defense and kept both Noah and Gibson in the game most of the time to protect the paint. Out on the perimeter they decided to send help towards James and took the risk of guys like Delly beating them. James made the passes, and Delly and the rest delivered. And it wasn't always that James always made the home-run pass as he likes to do. JR passed up a good shot to get Delly a better shot. Shumpert ended up with 4 assists because he moved the ball.

Because Thibs refused to go with a more offensive lineup, James was able to strangle the Bulls by controlling pace, cutting down on transition, cutting down on turnovers, and matching their scores.

Good post.

[Blue&Orange]

Yeah, Lebron wasn't great in 2nd round series.
But let's be real, his teammates played well because of all the attention that Bulls gave Lebron on defense. They wouldn't play nearly as well if you replaced Lebron for a guy like Melo.
Lebronstan sounding like a Kobestan, :roll: hilarious.


What delusion does to people.

[CavaliersFTW]

Pauk, all these years defending advanced stats now where are you at :lol

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Bran being 4th is retarded. Mozgov has been better too but boxscore numbers dont capture defense

[SpaceJammeR]

lebron was the cavs best player. he was playing bad but he was their best player. when you have to carry the load it gets harder. playing point forward, forward, getting boards, playing d, and scoring takes a toll on anyone. especially against chicago defense and a great man defender in butler. sh!t cavs were supposed to lose this series yet lebron willed his team to victory. one of the few who could've done it.

[nathanjizzle]

anyone that uses advanced stat as a pillar for arguing does not play basketball nor is good at it nor knows much about it.

[gts]

Odd, Lebron fans have spent years trying to convince everyone advanced stats were the only true measure of a players talent

Suddenly they suck.... :lol

[Kingwillball]

For starters, the sample is really small...

However, why are Lebron fans so incapable of admitting how shit he was overall in this series outside a fantastic game 5?

He was really really really bad outside that 1 game. Just because you win a series doesn't make you or how you played better than reality.

Lebron had a really poor series overall outside of game 5 and won because his teammates stepped up and his opponent was a scrub.

It's not complicated.

Stats, even advanced stats, are simply recordings of what happened on the floor. They do not tell you the best player....at least no single stat ever will.


Really bad and averaged close to a triple double something like 26,12,8 for series..

[bballnoob1192]

isn't advanced stats why no one likes baseball anymore? plez get that shit out of basketball. ****ing goddamn nerds trying to ruin basketball. I mean look at this shit.
http://www.glovers-scorebooks.com/images/baseball_sheet.gif
:facepalm is this sports or math?

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Really bad and averaged close to a triple double something like 26,12,8 for series..

What was his shooting % and turn over rate?

[sd3035]

Those stats prove what intelligent people have known all along :applause:

[CavaliersFTW]

Lebron just dropped behind Adrian Dantley on RealGM's all-time list

[3ball]

Lebron just dropped behind Adrian Dantley on Realgm's all-time list


Dantley was a great isolation player.. Otoh, Lebron sucks at isolations because HE TAKES TOO LONG - the NBA's player-tracking data (http://stats.nba.com/league/player/shots/#!/?sectionName=Touch%20Time%20Range&section=TouchTimeRange&range=Touch%206%2B%20Seconds&sort=FGA_FREQUENCY&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) shows that a whopping 38% of Lebron's points are scored by taking longer than 6 seconds - that's 8th in entire league..

Also, this stat is a point guard stat - Lebron and Harden were the only non-PG's in the top 50.. But Lebron has always played point guard for his team, as he did alongside Mo Williams and Chalmers.

Unfortunately for Lebron, the best isolators aren't players that take a long time by use existing, live-dribbles and a ton of screen rolls to make their moves (point guards).. The best isolators like Melo, Bird, and Worthy use off-ball and post/triple threat moves that enable them to isolate quickly (http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cebaec04eb04d06fba2884406be8c52f.gif) - quick isolations allow them to isolate more often and more successfully than players that use a live-dribble and screens to make their move (ball-dominators/point guards)..

In the playoffs, a guy like Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034) repeatedly crushed Michael Cooper and James Worthy in isolations with refined shooting touch and sophisticated off-ball play, triple-threat, and post-ups.. But Lebron doesn't even isolate as well as his fellow ball-dominators, like say Magic Johnson.. But at least Magic got twice the assists to justify his non-GOAT iso/scoring ability.. Whereas Lebron's just overrated.
.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Dantley was a great isolation player.. Otoh, Lebron sucks at isolations, but not just because his repertoire of moves is limited, but because HE TAKES TOO LONG - the NBA's player-tracking data (http://stats.nba.com/league/player/shots/#!/?sectionName=Touch%20Time%20Range&section=TouchTimeRange&range=Touch%206%2B%20Seconds&sort=FGA_FREQUENCY&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) shows that a whopping 38% of Lebron's points are scored by taking longer than 6 seconds - that's 8th in entire league..

Also, this stat is a point guard stat - Lebron and Harden were the only non-PG's in the top 50.. But Lebron has always played point guard for his team, as he did alongside Mo Williams and Chalmers.

Unfortunately for Lebron, the best isolators aren't players that take a long time by use existing, live-dribbles and a ton of screen rolls to make their moves (point guards).. The best isolators like Melo, Bird, and Worthy use off-ball and post/triple threat moves that enable them to isolate quickly (http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cebaec04eb04d06fba2884406be8c52f.gif) - quick isolations allow them to isolate more often and more successfully than players that use a live-dribble and screens to make their move (ball-dominators/point guards)..

In the playoffs, a guy like Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034) repeatedly crushed Michael Cooper and James Worthy in isolations with refined shooting touch and sophisticated off-ball play, triple-threat, and post-ups.. But Lebron doesn't even isolate as well as his fellow ball-dominators, like say Magic Johnson.. But at least Magic got twice the assists to justify his non-GOAT iso/scoring ability.. Whereas Lebron's just overrated.

No mention of MJ. Proudaya.

:applause:

[NumberSix]

Odd, Lebron fans have spent years trying to convince everyone advanced stats were the only true measure of a players talent

Suddenly they suck.... :lol
Not really. Nobody has ever tried to argue that LeBron is a better shooter than Kobe even though he has better shooting numbers. Everybody understands that numbers alone don't tell the whole story.

I think everybody gets that Cavs role players don't get the same quality looks without LeBron on the floor. I also think everybody can comprehend that the bulls put their strongest defenders on LeBron, not JR Smith or Shumpert.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Nobody has ever tried to argue that LeBron is a better shooter than Kobe even though he has better shooting numbers.

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

Am I in the Twilight Zone? That's exactly what many have been arguing for years now.

[NumberSix]

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

Am I in the Twilight Zone? That's exactly what many have been arguing for years now.
No. People have argued he is a better scorer. Not a better shooter.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

No. People have argued he is a better scorer. Not a better shooter.

Fair enough.

:cheers:

[Kvnzhangyay]

Not really. Nobody has ever tried to argue that LeBron is a better shooter than Kobe even though he has better shooting numbers. Everybody understands that numbers alone don't tell the whole story.

I think everybody gets that Cavs role players don't get the same quality looks without LeBron on the floor. I also think everybody can comprehend that the bulls put their strongest defenders on LeBron, not JR Smith or Shumpert.

This is a very good point.

[Marchesk]

No. People have argued he is a better scorer. Not a better shooter.

Lebron is not a better scorer. He's a better overall player, but Kobe is definitely the superior scorer, unless we're talking about broken down Kobe of last several seasons.

[gts]

Not really. Nobody has ever tried to argue that LeBron is a better shooter than Kobe :roll: :roll: :roll:

Bullsh*t

[Nastradamus]

as a true lebron fan I go on bball reference after every game to check the box score and recently ive been noticing something strange and im beginning to think i've put too much credence into thinking these advanced stats are as important as i believed

here are my findings.. 2015 playoffs....

WS/48

Kyrie .205
Tristan .198
Shumpert .174
JR Smith .149
Lebron .142

WS

Kyrie 1.6
Tristan 1.3
Shump/Lebron 1.2

OWS

Kyrie 1.2
Tristan 1.0
Shump .8
Smith/Lebron .4


these advanced stats don't even begin to tell the story... Lebron the 4th best player on his team in these playoffs so far according to advanced stats??

:rolleyes: :biggums:

Lebron has clearly been the Cavs best player, i can't believe i was led to believe so highly in advanced stats :facepalm :facepalm

Stick with real plus minus and Box plus minus.

[Nastradamus]

anyone that uses advanced stat as a pillar for arguing does not play basketball nor is good at it nor knows much about it.

Teams built on advanced stats(amongst others)

Hawks
Spurs
GS
Thunder

Coincidence? I think not.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Teams built on advanced stats(amongst others)

Hawks
Spurs
GS
Thunder

Coincidence? I think not.

how did that work out when KD/WB were gone?

out of 4 of those teams, OKC/GSW have the last 2 MVP's

Spurs have GOAT coaching, DPOY, and a lot of great role players..

[KG215]

isn't advanced stats why no one likes baseball anymore? plez get that shit out of basketball. ****ing goddamn nerds trying to ruin basketball. I mean look at this shit.
http://www.glovers-scorebooks.com/images/baseball_sheet.gif
:facepalm is this sports or math?
Ummm...that's a pretty standard scorecard that, in some variation, has been around for years and years.