Lebron's teams are always middle to near-last in assists

[3ball]

That's what happens when a normally high-assisted frontcourt position like SF is occupied by a low-assisted ball-dominator - the number of dimes that can be tossed to that SF is much lower than the norm, which lowers teammates' assist capacity, and the team's.

For all of Lebron's "setting the table for everyone" and "getting everyone involved", he does so in a ball-dominant, low-assisted fashion, which actually ROBS teammates the opportunity to assist the team's leading scorer, thus drastically lowering their assisting and playmaking capacity.

THAT'S why his teammates routinely underperform and his teams routinely underachieve.. You'll see it again this year and then I'll be on here saying I told you so.. Interestingly, Lebron is the only frontcourt player in history with a PG-level of ball-domination and abnormally low assisted-rate, so only his team has this affliction of a lower overall assist capacity.

Contrastingly, if your team has the GOAT scorer who plays a highly-assisted, off-ball style, that kind of scoring is exactly what MAXIMIZES teammates' assist and playmaking capacity, along with the team's.
.

[VengefulAngel]

No it has to do with pace, something which you vehemently use to defend MJ. See Miami 2012-2013, they upped the pace and were 7th in the league in assists.

^^ Thats what you call a first post thread lockdown, btw.

[3ball]

were 7th in the league in assists.


for lebron's entire career, his teams are middle to near-last in assists.

your counter that one year his team was 7th, MAKES the above point.

[VengefulAngel]

for lebron's entire career, his teams are middle to near-last in assists.

your counter that one year his team was 7th, MAKES the above point.

Ignoring the rest of the post which explains why. You really are a stupid son of a bitch.

[sd3035]

Ignoring the rest of the post which explains why. You really are a stupid son of a bitch.

https://i.imgur.com/T76woet.jpg

[VengefulAngel]

https://i.imgur.com/T76woet.jpg

It's not my fault he has the reading comprehension of a 5 year old.

[Quickening]

No it has to do with pace, something which you vehemently use to defend MJ. See Miami 2012-2013, they upped the pace and were 7th in the league in assists.

^^ Thats what you call a first post thread lockdown, btw.
Ether

[3ball]

It's not my fault he has the reading comprehension of a 5 year old.


Heat's pace went DOWN in 2013, so you should look in the mirror on the reading comp quip

[VengefulAngel]

Heat's pace went DOWN in 2013, so you should look in the mirror on the reading comp quip

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Here's pace adjusted figures.


5th in 2013-2014, http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/assistRatio/year/2014

3rd in 2012-2013
http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/assistRatio/year/2013

If you want to continue getting ethered please continue.

[MP.Trey]

BREAKING: LeBron dominates the ball.

[VengefulAngel]

BREAKING: LeBron dominates the ball.

See above, this whole thread is complete bullshit.

[MP.Trey]

See above, this whole thread is complete bullshit.
I'm pretty much a LeBron stan, but he is right that LeBron dominates the ball too much at times, regardless of pace. Always been one of my pet peeves while watching him.

[VengefulAngel]

I'm pretty much a LeBron stan, but he is right that LeBron dominates the ball too much at times, regardless of pace. Always been one of my pet peeves while watching him.

The stat's prove although he dominates the ball it doesn't result in his team being 'middle to near-last in assists'

I don't even like LBJ, but some of this stuff is asinine.

[blablabla]

That has more to do with roster composition and offensive systems

[3ball]

Here's pace adjusted figures.


5th in 2013-2014, http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/assistRatio/year/2014

3rd in 2012-2013
http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/assistRatio/year/2013



Pace-Adjusted Assist Rankings for all of Lebron's Teams:


2004: 11th
2005: 6th
2006: 24th
2007: 17th
2008: 25th
2009: 12th
2010: 4th
2011: 22nd
2012: 20th
2013: 3rd
2014: 4th
2015: 8th


Again, when you point out the exception to the norm, you only prove the existence of the norm and make MY point, not the one you were trying to make.

Lebron's teams have typically been in the middle to near-last in assists (not even in top 10 most seasons).. Deal with it.
.

[VengefulAngel]

Pace-Adjusted Assist Rankings for all of Lebron's Teams:


2004: 11th
2005: 6th
2006: 24th
2007: 17th
2008: 25th
2009: 12th
2010: 4th
2011: 22nd
2012: 20th
2013: 3rd
2014: 4th
2015: 8th


Again, when you point out the exception to the norm, you only prove the existence of the norm and make MY point, not the one you were trying to make.

Lebron's teams have typically been in the middle to near-last in assists (not even in top 10 most seasons).. Deal with it.
.

I only look at the figures which are pertinent, the offense in his first stint was iso-LBJ offense, his game has evolved a lot since then. I'm looking at these figures in context. If you made this thread 5 years ago you would have had a point but not now.

Plus you didn't say that, look at the title, 'LBJ team's are always near the bottom.

[Prometheus]

Pace-Adjusted Assist Rankings for all of Lebron's Teams:


2004: 11th
2005: 6th
2006: 24th
2007: 17th
2008: 25th
2009: 12th
2010: 4th
2011: 22nd
2012: 20th
2013: 3rd
2014: 4th
2015: 8th


Again, when you point out the exception to the norm, you only prove the existence of the norm and make MY point, not the one you were trying to make.

Lebron's teams have typically been in the middle to near-last in assists (not even in top 10 most seasons).. Deal with it.
.

11+6+24+17+25+12+4+22+20+3+4+8 = 156
156 / 12 = 13

So the average pace-adjusted assist ranking for LeBron's teams is actually 13th, which is better than average.

3ball loses again.

:D

[iamgine]

Pace-Adjusted Assist Rankings for all of Lebron's Teams:


2004: 11th
2005: 6th
2006: 24th
2007: 17th
2008: 25th
2009: 12th
2010: 4th
2011: 22nd
2012: 20th
2013: 3rd
2014: 4th
2015: 8th


Again, when you point out the exception to the norm, you only prove the existence of the norm and make MY point, not the one you were trying to make.

Lebron's teams have typically been in the middle to near-last in assists (not even in top 10 most seasons).. Deal with it.
.
There are 30 teams in the NBA.

According to the bolded 7 out of 12 of those seasons the team is better than average (15)

I'm not sure how that translates to "always middle to near-last in assists".

[VengefulAngel]

11+6+24+17+25+12+4+22+20+3+4+8 = 156
156 / 12 = 13

So the average pace-adjusted assist ranking for LeBron's teams is actually 13th, which is better than average.

3ball loses again.

:D

Plus he said are 'always middle to near last' if he had any season above 10, that also disproves this nonsense.

[3ball]

If you made this thread 5 years ago you would have had a point but not now.


Not at all - Miami briefly found a bandaid for Lebron's suboptimal style, but the 2014 Finals proved that bandaid to be an unsustainable, ineffective gimmick.

The facts remain that the ball-dominant Lebron is only assisted on 35% of his scores - this hampers ANY team's assists since he's a SF, which is normally a 50%+ assisted position.

Lebron's also the team's highest volume scorer - it especially hampers the team's assists that teammates can only assist their leading scorer at a significantly below-average rate.

For all of Lebron's "setting the table for everyone" and "getting everyone involved", his ball-dominant, low-assisted style actually ROBS teammates the opportunity to assist the team's leading scorer, thus drastically lowering their assisting and playmaking capacity.

[3ball]

There are 30 teams in the NBA.

According to the bolded 7 out of 12 of those seasons the team is better than average (15)

I'm not sure how that translates to "always middle to near-last in assists".


I shouldn't have used the term "always", since anytime I make a good point, you guys play dumb and take everything super-literally to maximize your opportunity to poke holes (which only proves to me that I'm right, since no one is arguing the substance of the argument.. they're only arguing the semantics).

But like Prometheus said, Lebron's teams average ranking is 13.. That's nearly the DEFINITION of middle of the pack and they've had many years where they've been near-last.. So like I said, middle to near-last, with an average of 13th... I'm quite certain that an average 13th ranking supports my point about how Lebron's ball-dominant, low-assisted style reduces his team's capacity for assists.
.

[Prometheus]

I shouldn't have used the term "always", since anytime I make a good point, you guys play dumb and take everything super-literally to maximize your opportunity to poke holes (which only proves to me that I'm right, since no one is arguing the substance of the argument.. they're only arguing the semantics).

But like Prometheus said, Lebron's teams average ranking is 13.. That's nearly the DEFINITION of middle of the pack and they've had many years where they've been near-last.. So like I said, middle to near-last, with an average of 13th.

Last three seasons in top ten. Two of those in top five.

Middle to near-last. :rolleyes:

[3ball]

Last three seasons in top ten. Two of those in top five.

Middle to near-last. :rolleyes:


Miami briefly found a bandaid for Lebron's suboptimal style, but the 2014 Finals proved that bandaid to be an unsustainable, ineffective gimmick.. This year, Lebron's team is an underwhelming 8th in assists, despite having 2 starters that play point guard (Lebron, Kyrie).

More importantly, like you said, Lebron's teams AVERAGE assist ranking is 13th..

That's nearly the DEFINITION of middle of the pack - I'm quite certain that an average ranking of 13th supports my point of how Lebron's ball-dominant, low-assisted style reduces his teammates' capacity for assists, along with the team's.
.

[VengefulAngel]

Miami briefly found a bandaid for Lebron's suboptimal style, but the 2014 Finals proved that bandaid to be an unsustainable, ineffective gimmick.. This year, Lebron's team is an underwhelming 8th in assists, despite having 2 starters that play point guard (Lebron, Kyrie).

More importantly, like you said, Lebron's teams AVERAGE assist ranking is 13th..

That's nearly the DEFINITION of middle of the pack - I'm quite certain that an average ranking of 13th supports my point of how Lebron's ball-dominant, low-assisted style reduces his teammates' capacity for assists, along with the team's.
.

Nearly 3ball, nearly. Thank you for admitting you are wrong.

[3ball]

Nearly three-ball, nearly. Thank you for admitting you are wrong.


Again, anytime you guys come on here and argue the semantics rather than the substance, I know I made a good point.

But like Prometheus said, Lebron's teams AVERAGE assist ranking is 13th.

I'm quite certain that an average ranking of 13th supports my point of how Lebron's ball-dominant, low-assisted style reduces his teammates' capacity for assists, along with the team's.. So I'm fine with that.. But keep on harping on the semantics.. It's a free country
.

[Prometheus]

Again, anytime you guys come on here and argue the semantics rather than the substance, I know I made a good point.

Miami briefly found a workable approach for Lebron's suboptimal style in 2013 and 2014, but the 2014 Finals proved that approach had turned into an unsustainable, ineffective gimmick.

This year, Lebron's team is an underwhelming 8th in assists, despite having 2 starters that play point guard (Lebron, Kyrie).

More importantly, like Prometheus said, Lebron's teams AVERAGE assist ranking is 13th.

That's nearly the DEFINITION of middle of the pack - I'm quite certain that an average ranking of 13th supports my point of how Lebron's ball-dominant, low-assisted style reduces his teammates' capacity for assists, along with the team's.. So I'm fine with that.. But you keep on harping on the semantics.

I'm not arguing the semantics at all. When his teams have been everywhere from 3rd in the league to 25th, your substance is moot. Your point is not supported by the data.

You. Lose.

[3ball]

I'm not arguing the semantics at all. When his teams have been everywhere from 3rd in the league to 25th, your substance is moot. Your point is not supported by the data.


His teams average 13th in the league in assists.. That's considered average at BEST.

"Average" is all I need to support my point that Lebron's ball-dominant, low-assisted style hampers his teams capacity for assists.

And again, you're not arguing the substance, because the substance is intuitive and irrefutable: anytime one of the typically high-assisted, frontcourt positions is occupied by a ball-dominant, low-assisted player, the team's assists will be hampered, because teammates' assists TO that player will be abnormally low.

[iamgine]

I'm quite certain that an average ranking of 13th supports my point of how Lebron's reduces his teammates' capacity for assists.

How...exactly? :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

How exactly


The assist totals don't even relate to the Lebron assist-lowering argument - the argument itself is an intuitive one based on simple logic: frontcourt players never have low assisted rates like Lebron, so Lebron's presence in the frontcourt lowers his teammates capacity to get assists.. That's the argument, nothing else.. Lebron's teams could be dead last in assists, and it still wouldn't make my argument.

The only purpose of the assist stats is to potentially DISPROVE my argument, by showing that Lebron's teams are consistently good assist teams... But his teams are average (13th) and not consistently good.. So my point is not disproved, and instead still stands.
.

[3ball]

some misinformation itt... :facepalm

[3ball]

The reality is that MJ's highly-assisted, off-ball game CREATES assists for teammates (that's what "highly assisted" means), while Lebron's ball-dominant, low-assisted style REDUCES teammates' opportunity to assist and playmake - tell me how I'm wrong... :confusedshrug:

Think about how many assists the GOAT scorer created for his team as an off-ball player - he was like a gold mine for teammates to rack up assists.. :bowdown:

That's part of the reason why the Bulls average assist ranking during MJ's career was 8th, as opposed to Lebron's 13th.. The 8th ranking is unadjusted for pace - so it's actually lower, since the Bulls were ALWAYS near-last in pace.

[iamgine]

Lebron's teams aren't consistently near the top, which would destroy my point of his assist-lowering effect on the team.

Why would his team not near the top means he have an assist lowering effect?

What about when his team was near the top?

[HurricaneKid]

for lebron's entire career, his teams are middle to near-last in assists.




Pace-Adjusted Assist Rankings for all of Lebron's Teams:


2004: 11th
2005: 6th
2006: 24th
2007: 17th
2008: 25th
2009: 12th
2010: 4th
2011: 22nd
2012: 20th
2013: 3rd
2014: 4th
2015: 8th


Again, when you point out the exception to the norm, you only prove the existence of the norm and make MY point, not the one you were trying to make.

Lebron's teams have typically been in the middle to near-last in assists (not even in top 10 most seasons).. Deal with it.
.

So for his career they have avg somewhere between 12 and 13. And over the last three years they have avg 5th.

I know everyone always ethers 3Ball in these cockamamie threads. But its unusual to see 3Ball do it himself. I guess he was feeling left out.

[3ball]

Why would his team not near the top means he have an assist lowering effect?


Again, the assist totals don't even relate to the Lebron assist-lowering argument - the argument itself is an intuitive one based on simple logic: frontcourt players never have low assisted rates like Lebron, so Lebron's presence in the frontcourt lowers his teammates capacity to get assists.. That's the argument, nothing else.. Lebron's teams could be dead last in assists, and it still wouldn't make my argument.

The only purpose of the assist stats is to potentially DISPROVE my argument, by showing that Lebron's teams are consistently good assist teams... But his teams are average (13th) and not consistently good.. So my point is not disproved, and instead still stands.

[iamgine]

So my point is not disproved, and instead still stands.
Well...If you say so...its a free country.

[3ball]

So for his career they have avg somewhere between 12 and 13. And over the last three years they have avg 5th.

I know everyone always ethers 3Ball in these cockamamie threads. But its unusual to see 3Ball do it himself. I guess he was feeling left out.
I'm happy with the average ranking of 13th - it's in line with my point.

Lebron's teams have not historically been good passing teams - 13th is not good.

Therefore my point stands: frontcourt players never have low assisted rates like Lebron, so Lebron's presence in the frontcourt lowers his teammates capacity to GET assists.. Are you capable of understanding that?

Btw, the only reason this is a valid point is because Lebron plays in the frontcourt.. If he played point guard, he would be EXPECTED to have a low-assisted rate.. But not only does Lebron play in the normally high-assisted frontcourt, but he's literally the only frontcourt player EVER to be ball-dominant and have a low-assisted rate.. So his teams are the only ones in history with this assist-lowering syndrome of Lebron's ball-dominant forward play.

[3ball]

Well...If you say so...its a free country.
Look bruh, i'm on here showing that Lebron is a ball-dominant, low-assisted player that plays a normally high assisted position, which therefore lowers his teammates capacity to get assists.

This is a FACT.. It's not refutable.

So you can come on here and argue semantics about the definition of "always", but the point remains.. you haven't said one thing to refute my point.. all you've wanted to talk about is whether his team has "always" had a bad ranking, and whether 13th is considered "average" or "above average".. who cares.. stick to the point.. :eyeroll

[iamgine]

you haven't said one thing to refute my point..
I didn't think i need to since it's been refuted repeatedly since 2nd post.

[3ball]

I didn't think i need to since it's been refuted repeatedly since 2nd post.
The 2nd post didn't argue my point - it argued semantics about the meaning of "always".

My point is that Lebron is a low-assisted player that plays a normally high assisted position, which therefore lowers his teammates capacity to assist him and therefore their capacity to assist.

Show me where this was refuted.. It's kind of hard to when it's fact.. If teammates can't assist the leading scorer on their team as often because the leading scorer is always doing it by himself, then that lowers their assist capacity... Otoh, if the team's leading scorer is an off-ball, highly assisted player, than teammates have a gold mine to rack up assists, playmake and stay engaged.
.

[TylerOO]

They are also always in the finals.

[Megabox!]

3ball is getting his shit pushed in

[Bandito]

Lehog effect.

[kamil]

Pace-Adjusted Assist Rankings for all of Lebron's Teams:


2004: 11th
2005: 6th
2006: 24th
2007: 17th
2008: 25th
2009: 12th
2010: 4th
2011: 22nd
2012: 20th
2013: 3rd
2014: 4th
2015: 8th

Again, when you point out the exception to the norm, you only prove the existence of the norm and make MY point, not the one you were trying to make.

Lebron's teams have typically been in the middle to near-last in assists (not even in top 10 most seasons).. Deal with it.
.


Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that average of that is 13.

So, no, LeBrons* team don't rank low.

[LeBird]

Is this dumbass still trying to prove the existence of off-ball assists?

:lol

[iamgine]

My point is that Lebron is a low-assisted player that plays a normally high assisted position, which therefore lowers his teammates capacity to assist him and therefore their capacity to assist.
.
That's your point? It's kind of a "so what" point.

It's like saying Shaq can only play in the post, so it lowers his teammates capacity to cut.

[Prometheus]

Is this dumbass still trying to prove the existence of off-ball assists?

:lol

It's funny that people still don't understand what he meant by that. When a player receives the ball in the post, short corner, elbow, wing, etc., and then passes out of either triple threat or off of one or two dribbles, they are passing from an off-ball play. It's a perfectly valid phenomenon, the term just sounds silly.

[tmacattack33]

That's what happens when a normally high-assisted frontcourt position like SF is occupied by a low-assisted ball-dominator - the number of dimes that can be tossed to that SF is much lower than the norm, which lowers teammates' assist capacity, and the team's.

For all of Lebron's "setting the table for everyone" and "getting everyone involved", he does so in a ball-dominant, low-assisted fashion, which actually ROBS teammates the opportunity to assist the team's leading scorer, thus drastically lowering their assisting and playmaking capacity.

THAT'S why his teammates routinely underperform and his teams routinely underachieve.. You'll see it again this year and then I'll be on here saying I told you so.. Interestingly, Lebron is the only frontcourt player in history with a PG-level of ball-domination and abnormally low assisted-rate, so only his team has this affliction of a lower overall assist capacity.

Contrastingly, if your team has the GOAT scorer who plays a highly-assisted, off-ball style, that kind of scoring is exactly what MAXIMIZES teammates' assist and playmaking capacity, along with the team's.
.


:biggums:


Stopped reading there (actually, I don't know why i opened this thread up in the first place knowing that you were the OP).

Lebron's team always underachieve? LOL at that. He made the Cavs a perennial contender with a supporting cast of Varejao/Illgauskas/Mo Williams.




And he makes his teammates underperform? LOL at that as well.

Lebron had people thinking Mo Williams was a good second option. LOL. Two years after Lebron left him, Mo Williams was a free agent and nobody was giving him any offers at all.

And remember JJ Hickson? Lebron made people talk about him like he was a great prospect. I don't even know what team he plays for right now. Same goes for Daniel Gibson. Is he even in the league anymore?

And currently, Lebron is making people think that Bellevedova is a good player...and he has JR Smith and Imani Shumpert playing at a very high level.

[3ball]

:biggums:

Lebron's team always underachieve?



When you lose as the favorite, that's the definition of underachieving


He lost high school state championship as the favorite.

He lost in 2004 Olympics as the favorite.

He lost in the 2006 World Games as the favorite.

He lost in the 2009 2nd Round as a favorite.

He lost in 2010 ECF as the favorite

He lost in 2011 Finals as the favorite.

He lost in 2014 Finals as the favorite: http://espn.go.com/nba/notebook/_/page/nba1314/2013-14-nba-champion

[24-Inch_Chrome]

LeBron living rent free in 3ball's head. Every ****ing thread has at least a lowkey focus on LeBron.

[tmacattack33]

When you lose as the favorite, that's the definition of underachieving


He lost high school state championship as the favorite.

He lost in 2004 Olympics as the favorite.

He lost in the 2006 World Games as the favorite.

He lost in the 2009 2nd Round as a favorite.

He lost in 2010 ECF as the favorite

He lost in 2011 Finals as the favorite.

He lost in 2014 Finals as the favorite: http://espn.go.com/nba/notebook/_/page/nba1314/2013-14-nba-champion

Great. Now post how many times he's won as the underdog. I think he just did against Chicago.

Also, please provide proof that Miami was the favorite in the 2014 Finals.

Then show me MJ's stats when he was an underdog and when he was a favorite.

[kshutts1]

That's what happens when a normally high-assisted frontcourt position like SF is occupied by a low-assisted ball-dominator - the number of dimes that can be tossed to that SF is much lower than the norm, which lowers teammates' assist capacity, and the team's.

For all of Lebron's "setting the table for everyone" and "getting everyone involved", he does so in a ball-dominant, low-assisted fashion, which actually ROBS teammates the opportunity to assist the team's leading scorer, thus drastically lowering their assisting and playmaking capacity.

THAT'S why his teammates routinely underperform and his teams routinely underachieve.. You'll see it again this year and then I'll be on here saying I told you so.. Interestingly, Lebron is the only frontcourt player in history with a PG-level of ball-domination and abnormally low assisted-rate, so only his team has this affliction of a lower overall assist capacity.

Contrastingly, if your team has the GOAT scorer who plays a highly-assisted, off-ball style, that kind of scoring is exactly what MAXIMIZES teammates' assist and playmaking capacity, along with the team's.
.
I'm legit curious to learn more about the bolded.

I can think of tons of "frontcourt" players with high ball domination... I just don't know much about "low assisted rate". Can you please show figures for...

Wilt
Pippen
Barry
Baylor
G. Hill
TMac
KG
Shaq
Griffin-when-Paul-is-out
George
Pierce
Melo
Wilkins
?

[HOoopCityJones]

Lebron hogs all the stats, this is nothing new.

[DonDadda59]

LeBron ball gonna LeBron ball :confusedshrug:

[HurricaneKid]

When you lose as the favorite, that's the definition of underachieving


He lost in 2004 Olympics as the favorite.

[/url]



He was 10th on the team in minutes and 19 years old. Blaming him makes you look STUPID.

You lose credibility every time you open your mouth. Half of the other ones here are dumb/wrong too.

[pauk]

Lebron has to be pretty damn great to be the only player ever for Jordan stans worthy of comparing / being insecure about? :applause:

[#number6ix#]

Post the heat assist numbers from this season and compare them to last season I know The numbers skyrocketed also from his first run with the cavs and after he left

[AirBourne92]

first time i actually agreed with OP

lebron hinders developments of his teammates

all they do is catch and shoot 3s

[Rose'sACL]

first time i actually agreed with OP

lebron hinders developments of his teammates

all they do is catch and shoot 3s
kyrie doesn't.

why should have bosh gotten same number of shots as he did in toronto when wade and lebron were clearly the better players?
the truth is that bosh was only better at 1 thing than wade and lebron and that was mid range shooting. bosh got mid range shots and later 3 point shots too.