MJ w/o Pippen (0 MVP, 0 RING) vs Kareem w/o Magic (5 MVPs, 1 title) - KAJ GOAT

[k0kakw0rld]

Kareem without Magic (5 MVPs, 1 title) - Greatest of all time

Bill Russell without Cousy (1 MVP, 5 titles) - Greatest Winner

MJ falls to the #3 spot.

Can't deny facts. I dont give a fvck about ESPN/NIKE. They been brainwashing you fools with them Space Jam and I believe I can fly sh!t.

Talking about easy path to the finals, how about the bulls 1998 run? :confusedshrug:

MJ lost 3 times in the first round in one of the weakest era ever.

Had a losing record three times and still made the playoffs
(38-44) lost 1-3 vs Milwaukee
(30-52) then 0-3 vs Bird
(40-42) and swept again by Bird and the Celtics

:applause:

I'm ready to expose this n!gga like an art gallery.

[oarabbus]

3ball is having an aneuryism right now.

[k0kakw0rld]

3ball is having an aneuryism right now.
I'm waiting for him.

[ApexPredator]

These threads are so stupid. Kareem had a long prime before Magic came along. Jordan did not. In fact, Jordan had 1 year that could be argued as being during his prime (1986-87). He had a rookie season, an injury season, a prime season (lost in playoffs to the 87 Celtics), then Pippen joined, and Jordan wasn't away from Pippen again until he was on the Wizards.

[k0kakw0rld]

These posts are so stupid. Kareem had a long prime before Magic came along. Jordan did not.
What exactly is so stupid about them posts? Explain to me how he did not win anything before Pippen.

I'm waiting...

If you have nothing more to say (obviously no basketball knowledge to even start a conversation) Get the fvck out my thread.

[Optimus Prime]

Typical LeBeta stan trying to diminish the GOAT. :facepalm

Basketball has existed before 2003. Yes, there is video and stats from back then, and those Bulls teams before Pip and Phil joined to six-peat were pretty terrible.

Go look at the roster and coach from when MJ hung 63 on one of the best teams ever in the Bird Celtics, in the Garden, in the playoffs after missing most of the season with a broken foot. I dare you.

Beta Bran has never played on a team as bad as some of those Bulls teams.

:facepalm

[k0kakw0rld]

Typical LeBeta stan trying to diminish the GOAT. :facepalm

Basketball has existed before 2003. Yes, there is video and stats from back then, and those Bulls teams before Pip and Phil joined to six-peat were pretty terrible.

Go look at the roster and coach from when MJ hung 63 on one of the best teams ever in the Bird Celtics, in the Garden, in the playoffs after missing most of the season with a broken foot. I dare you.

Beta Bran has never played on a team as bad as some of those Bulls teams.

:facepalm
Who cares about points... Wilt owns 56 NBA RECORDS

119 50+ points yet people are using the "He did not win enough rings" excuse. What the **** y'all want. Always changing your arguments/criterias just to put MJ as the GOAT. He isn't.\

Get the fbck outta here

[Eric Cartman]

Kobe without Shaq:

1 MVP, 2 titles (2 FMVP)

Does that mean Kobe > Jordan? :dancin

[Optimus Prime]

Kobe without Shaq:

1 MVP, 2 titles (2 FMVP)

Does that mean Kobe > Jordan? :dancin

:lebronamazed:

:dancin

[ApexPredator]

Had a losing record three times and still made the playoffs
(38-44) lost 1-3 vs Milwaukee
(30-52) then 0-3 vs Bird
(40-42) and swept again by Bird and the Celtics


Agenda is obvious. Criticizing a guy for losing in the first round as a rookie, as well as being swept by the Celtics (one of the greatest teams of all time) after an injured riddled season (he played 18 games and even then could only manage 25mpg). In the 3rd season, the 2nd best offensive threat was Charles Oakley of all people at 14.5ppg. Oak was only a sophomore in the league. Only 2 other players averaged double figures that season, John Paxson was the other behind Oakley who only averaged 11.3ppg. Jordan had to drag that pathetic team to the playoffs, where they again met one of the greatest teams of all time.

[ApexPredator]

What exactly is so stupid about them posts? Explain to me how he did not win anything before Pippen.

I'm waiting...

If you have nothing more to say (obviously no basketball knowledge to even start a conversation) Get the fvck out my thread.

No response to my elaboration?

[Fudge]

http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h385/GGMMc/retard-funny-gifs-eccbc87e4b5ce2fe28308fd9f2a7baf3-804_zpsdfcf233b.gif
:lol :lol :lol

Wear your helmet everyday, kids.

[ApexPredator]

Kareem without Magic (5 MVPs, 1 title) -

Kareem's 1 title came with Oscar Robertson. He needed a top 10 GOAT player for each of his titles. Jordan never had a top 10 GOAT player to win any of his championships, and still had as many.

[ApexPredator]

:lol :lol :lol

Wear your helmet everyday, kids.
:roll:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

:lol :lol :lol

Wear your helmet everyday, kids.

Gif game strong. :applause:

[k0kakw0rld]

Kobe without Shaq:

1 MVP, 2 titles (2 FMVP)

Does that mean Kobe > Jordan? :dancin

Dont act stupid... Kobe only has 1 MVP (MVP for me is a solid argument/criteria to determine who's GOAT) Kobe is already out of the discussion.

Kareem has 6 MVPs (the most ever) vs MJ's 5

and for the other guy above you, MJ took 41 shots to score 63 points and it took him 2 OT and still lost the game. (EMPTY STAT$)

[ApexPredator]

Dont act stupid... Kobe only has 1 MVP (MVP for me is a solid argument/criteria to determine who's GOAT) Kobe is already out of the discussion.

Kareem has 6 MVPs (the most ever) vs MJ's 5

and for the other guy above you, MJ took 41 shots to score 63 points and it took him 2 OT and still lost the game. (EMPTY STAT$)

You should read your first phrase and apply it to your own life.

[Eric Cartman]

Dont act stupid... Kobe only has 1 MVP (MVP for me is a solid argument/criteria to determine who's GOAT) Kobe is already out of the discussion.

Kareem has 6 MVPs (the most ever) vs MJ's 5

and for the other guy above you, MJ took 41 shots to score 63 points and it took him 2 OT and still lost the game. (EMPTY STAT$)

Does it bother you one bit that Lebron has 4 MVP's, while Shaq, Hakeem and Kobe have 1 each?

[k0kakw0rld]

You should read your first phrase and apply it to your own life.
You have nothing to say lol Everything I'm saying is true and facts.

[k0kakw0rld]

Does it bother you one bit that Lebron has 4 MVP's, while Shaq, Hakeem and Kobe have 1 each?
LeBron carried more scrubs than any of them fools lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

KAJ before Magic: 1970-79, 10 years
MJ before Pippen: 1985-87, 3 years

I don't even..

[k0kakw0rld]

KAJ before Magic: 1970-79, 10 years
MJ before Pippen: 1985-87, 3 years

I don't even..
I gotchu

KAJ first 3 years without Magic

1 title
2 MVPs
1 final
2 scoring titles
Playoff record: 23-12
0 losing record

MJ first 3 years without Pippen

0 title
0 MVP
0 NBA final
playoff record: 1-9
1 scoring title
3 losing records

[sportjames23]

Typical LeBeta stan trying to diminish the GOAT. :facepalm

Basketball has existed before 2003. Yes, there is video and stats from back then, and those Bulls teams before Pip and Phil joined to six-peat were pretty terrible.

Go look at the roster and coach from when MJ hung 63 on one of the best teams ever in the Bird Celtics, in the Garden, in the playoffs after missing most of the season with a broken foot. I dare you.

Beta Bran has never played on a team as bad as some of those Bulls teams.

:facepalm


Ether.

C0ckw0rld should hang his head in shame.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Typical LeBeta stan trying to diminish the GOAT. :facepalm

Basketball has existed before 2003. Yes, there is video and stats from back then, and those Bulls teams before Pip and Phil joined to six-peat were pretty terrible.

Go look at the roster and coach from when MJ hung 63 on one of the best teams ever in the Bird Celtics, in the Garden, in the playoffs after missing most of the season with a broken foot. I dare you.

Beta Bran has never played on a team as bad as some of those Bulls teams.

:facepalm

:biggums: Lost credibility there

[k0kakw0rld]

Ether.

C0ckw0rld should hang his head in shame.

I gotchu

KAJ first 3 years without Magic

1 title
2 MVPs
1 final
2 scoring titles
Playoff record: 23-12
0 losing record

MJ first 3 years without Pippen

0 title
0 MVP
0 NBA final
playoff record: 1-9
1 scoring title
3 losing records

Are your ignoring this Ether on purpose or what? loool

[ApexPredator]

You have nothing to say lol Everything I'm saying is true and facts.

No, you had no proper response to my point, so why give your post a proper response?

[ApexPredator]

:biggums: Lost credibility there

Double check those rosters. I already gave an example of how bad his 3rd year roster was.

[ShawkFactory]

I gotchu

KAJ first 3 years without Magic

1 title
2 MVPs
1 final
2 scoring titles
Playoff record: 23-12
0 losing record

MJ first 3 years without Pippen

0 title
0 MVP
0 NBA final
playoff record: 1-9
1 scoring title
3 losing records
The 70s were also a legitimately weak era.

[k0kakw0rld]

No, you had no proper response to my point, so why give your post a proper response?
Kobe has littereally nothing on MJ, stats or accolades. KJ, Russell & Wilt do. That's my point.

[sportjames23]

Are your ignoring this Ether on purpose or what? loool


Nikka, you read his post?

Hold this L.

[ApexPredator]

Kobe has littereally nothing on MJ, stats or accolades. KJ, Russell & Wilt do. That's my point.

I was speaking in general about you being dumb and your avoidance of my earlier points. I agree that Kobe has nothing on those guys.

[k0kakw0rld]

Nikka, you read his post?

Hold this L.
You don't bring anything to the table other than hold this L. It's a basketball forum unless you wana discuss true basketball facts get the fvck out of here fool.

[Fudge]

You don't bring anything to the table other than hold this L. It's a basketball forum unless you wana discuss true basketball facts get the fvck out of here fool.
You mad? :oldlol:

https://data.archive.moe/board/wsg/image/1341/31/1341317686546.gif

[ApexPredator]

You don't bring anything to the table other than hold this L. It's a basketball forum unless you wana discuss true basketball facts get the fvck out of here fool.

Sometimes that is better than saying things that make the world dumber.

[nba_55]

You mad? :oldlol:

https://data.archive.moe/board/wsg/image/1341/31/1341317686546.gif

Look like you have gained some weight :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Marchesk]

Wilt won two titles without Magic and Oscar.

Wilt > Kareem

[kennethgriffin]

in terms of who won accomplished the most without their main HOF running mate

kobe ( 2 rings minus Shaq )
Russell ( 1 ring without Sam Jones )
Shaq ( 1 ring minus Kobe )
kareem ( 1 ring minus magic )
duncan ( 1 ring minus parker )
hakeem ( 1 ring minus drexler )
wilt ( 1 ring minus west )
bird ( 0 rings minus mchale )
magic ( 0 rings minus kareem )
jordan ( 0 rings minus pippen )
lebron ( 0 rings minus wade )

[nba_55]

Sometimes that is better than saying things that make the world dumber.

Then why weren't you other 239 posts ''Hold this L''?

[Fudge]

Look like you have gained some weight :oldlol: :oldlol:
Was expecting a response from you.

Hahaha, damn. Too easy. I stay winning.

https://data.archive.moe/board/wsg/image/1341/31/1341317686546.gif

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Fudge's gif game is on ****ing point today.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt without rent payment:

Still 2 titles 4 MVP's and the entire NBA record book.

GOAT

[ApexPredator]

in terms of who won accomplished the most without their main HOF running mate

duncan (3 rings minus Robinson)
kobe ( 2 rings minus Shaq )
Russell ( 1 ring without Sam Jones )
Shaq ( 1 ring minus Kobe )
kareem ( 1 ring minus magic )
hakeem ( 1 ring minus drexler )
wilt ( 1 ring minus west )
bird ( 0 rings minus mchale )
magic ( 0 rings minus kareem )
jordan ( 0 rings minus pippen )
lebron ( 0 rings minus wade )


Fixed.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I gotchu

KAJ first 3 years without Magic

1 title
2 MVPs
1 final
2 scoring titles
Playoff record: 23-12
0 losing record

MJ first 3 years without Pippen

0 title
0 MVP
0 NBA final
playoff record: 1-9
1 scoring title
3 losing records
Pip wasn't an allstar until 1990 while KAJ had Oscar as an allstar in '71 and '72 and Dandridge in '73.

[Blue&Orange]

oh god, points out his he made the playoffs with a team with a losing record, then expects him to beat the n

[ApexPredator]

[QUOTE=Blue&Orange]oh god, points out his he made the playoffs with a team with a losing record, then expects him to beat the n

[Roundball_Rock]

A mystery regarding MJ is why he, of the very top tier of legends, did the least with poor rosters. It is ironic since MJ did the most with good rosters (i.e. consecutive seasons of 72 and 69 wins).

MJ is the #1 reason Chicago had the success it did in the 90's but the facts are a testament to Pippen's role.

Chicago without Pippen as a starter (1985-1989)

38-44, 1-3 in playoffs
30-52, 0-3 in playoffs
40-42, 0-3 in playoffs
50-32, 2-2 in playoffs (he started and had a big Game 5)
13-11

Chicago with Pippen as a starter (1989-1994)

33-23 (they went 4-6 when Pip did not play), ECF
55-27, ECF
61-21, champs
67-15, champs
57-25, champs
51-21 (without MJ), ECSF

When Pippen became a starter he played bench minutes in his first game. In his first true start the Bulls started a roll that saw them win 9 of 11 games. They never really looked back from that point.

People love to invoke that Pippen was not an all-star until 1990 but his numbers as a starter in 89' mirror his numbers in 90'. The difference is Pip spent 1/3 the season playing only 25 mpg and posting 10/5/2 versus 16/7/4 in 35 mpg as a starter.

If you look at Pippen's record in Portland the same thing happened when he was not starting. Portland with him had the #4 and #5 best winning percentages with him in 2001 and 2002 but plummeted to #18 and #19 without him. This was old man Pippen to boot.

Like Kareem on the Lakers, Jordan was the primary reason for his team's success but like Magic it was Pippen who allowed the team to take the next step.

[livinglegend]

A mystery regarding MJ is why he, of the very top tier of legends, did the least with poor rosters. It is ironic since MJ did the most with good rosters (i.e. consecutive seasons of 72 and 69 wins).

MJ is the #1 reason Chicago had the success it did in the 90's but the facts are a testament to Pippen's role.

Chicago without Pippen as a starter (1985-1989)

38-44, 1-3 in playoffs
30-52, 0-3 in playoffs
40-42, 0-3 in playoffs
50-32, 2-2 in playoffs (he started and had a big Game 5)
13-11

Chicago with Pippen as a starter (1989-1994)

33-23 (they went 4-6 when Pip did not play), ECF
55-27, ECF
61-21, champs
67-15, champs
57-25, champs
51-21 (without MJ), ECSF

When Pippen became a starter he played bench minutes in his first game. In his first true start the Bulls started a roll that saw them win 9 of 11 games. They never really looked back from that point.

People love to invoke that Pippen was not an all-star until 1990 but his numbers as a starter in 89' mirror his numbers in 90'. The difference is Pip spent 1/3 the season playing only 25 mpg and posting 10/5/2 versus 16/7/4 in 35 mpg as a starter.

If you look at Pippen's record in Portland the same thing happened when he was not starting. Portland with him had the #4 and #5 best winning percentages with him in 2001 and 2002 but plummeted to #18 and #19 without him. This was old man Pippen to boot.

Like Kareem on the Lakers, Jordan was the primary reason for his team's success but like Magic it was Pippen who allowed the team to take the next step.

My bro Roundball is still ethering these MJ stans. :oldlol: :oldlol:

[MEB2kDeez]

You mad? :oldlol:

https://data.archive.moe/board/wsg/image/1341/31/1341317686546.gif
:roll: :roll:

[k0kakw0rld]

Sometimes that is better than saying things that make the world dumber.
Of course, you take the easy way cause you have nothing consturctive to say. Your boy is fabricated he is no GOAT.

[k0kakw0rld]

Wilt won two titles without Magic and Oscar.

Wilt > Kareem
That is not my only argument

Kareem 6 MVPs > Jordan 5 MVPs > Wilt 4 MVPs :confusedshrug:

[k0kakw0rld]

Wilt won two titles without Magic and Oscar.

Wilt > Kareem
That is not my only argument

Kareem 6 MVPs > Jordan 5 MVPs > Wilt 4 MVPs :confusedshrug: we can go on and on if you want. I will counter attack every argument you bring to help MJ's case. I'm ready for y'all.

[TheBigVeto]

Kareem without Magic (5 MVPs, 1 title) - Greatest of all time

Bill Russell without Cousy (1 MVP, 5 titles) - Greatest Winner

MJ falls to the #3 spot.

Can't deny facts. I dont give a fvck about ESPN/NIKE. They been brainwashing you fools with them Space Jam and I believe I can fly sh!t.

Talking about easy path to the finals, how about the bulls 1998 run? :confusedshrug:

MJ lost 3 times in the first round in one of the weakest era ever.

Had a losing record three times and still made the playoffs
(38-44) lost 1-3 vs Milwaukee
(30-52) then 0-3 vs Bird
(40-42) and swept again by Bird and the Celtics

:applause:

I'm ready to expose this n!gga like an art gallery.

Jordan/Jabbar/Russell are the 3 GOAT, I don't have problem with any of them being ranked #1.

Jabbar is the only Laker in the top 10 GOAT basketball players.

[Legends66NBA7]

MJ falls to the #3 spot.

I'm ready to expose this n!gga like an art gallery.


Damn, how exposed does one get ? He went from #1 or #2..... to #3 ?!?!?!


EXPOSED !


:violin: :violin: :violin:

[PsychoBe]

Jordan/Jabbar/Russell are the 3 GOAT, I don't have problem with any of them being ranked #1.

Jabbar is the only Laker in the top 10 GOAT basketball players.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

b-b-b-but not magic, shaq, or kobe? :oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan/Jabbar/Russell are the 3 GOAT, I don't have problem with any of them being ranked #1.

Jabbar is the only Laker in the top 10 GOAT basketball players.

Lmao, so no Wilt, Magic, Shaq, Kobe or West, who the hell's in your top 10?

[Eric Cartman]

Jabbar is the only Laker in the top 10 GOAT basketball players.
Mods...

[24-Inch_Chrome]

There's no way this guy has a top-10 without any other Lakers. Magic should be a lock and ranked highest of the remaining Lakers, dude commonly makes it into the top-5.

[DonDadda59]

Bruh...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pHWcn7EWoUE/T0eNSJRlpNI/AAAAAAAAGjo/fhQMcX8TxB8/s1600/oscar-awards-2012-wallpaper.jpg

Not to mention his mediocre record post Oscar/pre Magic when he had HOFers like Adrian Dantley and Gail Goodrich on his squad.

[Marchesk]

Kareem 6 MVPs > Jordan 5 MVPs > Wilt 4 MVPs :confusedshrug: we can go on and on if you want. I will counter attack every argument you bring to help MJ's case. I'm ready for y'all.

Stuff has to be taken into context. Wilt had Russell to contend for MVP-wise. Kareem came after Russell retired and Wilt was at the end of his career. He got to rack up MVPs in the 70s. MJ didn't have that kind of competition once Bird and Magic exited their prime. And neither did Lebron.

[DonDadda59]

Stuff has to be taken into context. Wilt had Russell to contend for MVP-wise. Kareem came after Russell retired and Wilt was at the end of his career. He got to rack up MVPs in the 70s. MJ didn't have that kind of competition once Bird and Magic exited their prime. And neither did Lebron.

Kareem won MVP one season with a 40-42 record. Tells you about the strength of competition in that era.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Kareem won MVP one season with a 40-42 record. Tells you about the strength of competition in that era.

Was that the year he missed the playoffs too? I'm not sure but I thought that Kareem was the only player to win an MVP while missing the playoffs.

[guy]

Everyone knows Jordan's first 3 seasons are the only seasons that matter. The rest are irrelevant.

[bobeticus]

Kobe without Shaq:

1 MVP, 2 titles (2 FMVP)

Does that mean Kobe > Jordan? :dancin

Kobe without Pau

1 MVP

Nash > Kobe :confusedshrug:

[Eric Cartman]

Kobe without Pau

1 MVP

Nash > Kobe :confusedshrug:
Kobe has 3 titles without Pau

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Lol, purposely ignoring that Pippen didn't develop into an all-star caliber player until his fourth year in the league.

Guy averaged 20 mpg in his rookie year and the Bulls still won 50 games. Didnt start a game all year. Yet they won 50 in a great conference, without a credible number two option.

[k0kakw0rld]

Was that the year he missed the playoffs too? I'm not sure but I thought that Kareem was the only player to win an MVP while missing the playoffs.
MJ 3 losing records and still made the playoffs, what is your point? :confusedshrug:

[PsychoBe]

Lol, purposely ignoring that Pippen didn't develop into an all-star caliber player until his fourth year in the league.

Guy averaged 20 mpg in his rookie year and the Bulls still won 50 games. Didnt start a game all year. Yet they won 50 in a great conference, without a credible number two option.

this. pippen was a nobody. only when grant came along and developed into a respectable player and the team trusted the triangle did jordan finally win.

[Asukal]

Anti MJ agenda logic: MJ has no holes in his game so let's use Pippen

:oldlol: :roll: :lol

You idiots realize how weak that argument is? :facepalm

[k0kakw0rld]

Damn, how exposed does one get ? He went from #1 or #2..... to #3 ?!?!?!


EXPOSED !


:violin: :violin: :violin:
He is no GOAT...Lots of analysts are trying to feed us with bullsh!t and y'all biting like kids. :facepalm

[k0kakw0rld]

Anti MJ agenda logic: MJ has no holes in his game so let's use Pippen

:oldlol: :roll: :lol

You idiots realize how weak that argument is? :facepalm
No holes? :oldlol:

How old are you again?

[Asukal]

No holes? :oldlol:

How old are you again?

Care to mention his weaknesses? I can mention a lot in lebadlo's game. How old are you again? :rolleyes:

OP's argument: Pippen :oldlol: :lol :roll:

[Bandito]

Anti MJ agenda logic: MJ has no holes in his game so let's use Pippen

:oldlol: :roll: :lol

You idiots realize how weak that argument is? :facepalm
If he didn't have holes how did he poop?

[Asukal]

If he didn't have holes how did he poop?

Good one. I can't think of any joke more lame and corny than yours. :coleman:

[Roundball_Rock]

Lol, purposely ignoring that Pippen didn't develop into an all-star caliber player until his fourth year in the league.

Guy averaged 20 mpg in his rookie year and the Bulls still won 50 games. Didnt start a game all year. Yet they won 50 in a great conference, without a credible number two option.

This post is inaccurate. Pippen was an all-star in his 3rd year and in his 2nd year, during the 2/3 of the season he was starting (the part of the season Chicago was not mired at .500 :oldlol: ) his 2nd year stats were similar to his 3rd year stats. The issue was his minutes, not his on the floor production (also look up Chicago's record when Pippen played 35+ minutes versus when he played 25 minutes or less--very revealing...). Moreover, regarding his first season Pippen did in fact start a game as a rookie. The first one was a very important game--a playoff game. The Bulls won the first 2 games and then promptly lost the next 2 and looked on their way to a choke (the first round was a best of 5 back then) against the #6 seed while continuing their streak of losing in the first round. A desperate Doug Collins inserted Pippen into the starting lineup as a hail mary play--and Pippen had his best game of the year as the Bulls narrowly beat the Cavs to finally get out the first round. Pippen then remained a starter in the ECSF.

In other words, minus Pippen the Bulls were on their way to another first round loss in 88' and were a 0.500 team with Pippen as a 25 mpg bench player in 89' (basically even with MJ they were a 0.500 team during that era--38-44, 9-9, 40-42, and yes 50-32 but minus Pippen that would have resulted in a first round defeat after choking away a 2-0 lead and they started 89' 13-12). Then Pippen becomes a permanent starter and the Bulls promptly go on a 9-2 roll and start making ECF's. The rest is history. :pimp:

[andgar923]

Jordan made Pip, that's known as a FACT by all.

Took a timid, shy, scared player with raw potential and turned him into a HOF.

GOAT level shit :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[LAZERUSS]

A mystery regarding MJ is why he, of the very top tier of legends, did the least with poor rosters. It is ironic since MJ did the most with good rosters (i.e. consecutive seasons of 72 and 69 wins).

MJ is the #1 reason Chicago had the success it did in the 90's but the facts are a testament to Pippen's role.

Chicago without Pippen as a starter (1985-1989)

38-44, 1-3 in playoffs
30-52, 0-3 in playoffs
40-42, 0-3 in playoffs
50-32, 2-2 in playoffs (he started and had a big Game 5)
13-11

Chicago with Pippen as a starter (1989-1994)

33-23 (they went 4-6 when Pip did not play), ECF
55-27, ECF
61-21, champs
67-15, champs
57-25, champs
51-21 (without MJ), ECSF

When Pippen became a starter he played bench minutes in his first game. In his first true start the Bulls started a roll that saw them win 9 of 11 games. They never really looked back from that point.

People love to invoke that Pippen was not an all-star until 1990 but his numbers as a starter in 89' mirror his numbers in 90'. The difference is Pip spent 1/3 the season playing only 25 mpg and posting 10/5/2 versus 16/7/4 in 35 mpg as a starter.

If you look at Pippen's record in Portland the same thing happened when he was not starting. Portland with him had the #4 and #5 best winning percentages with him in 2001 and 2002 but plummeted to #18 and #19 without him. This was old man Pippen to boot.

Like Kareem on the Lakers, Jordan was the primary reason for his team's success but like Magic it was Pippen who allowed the team to take the next step.

I agree with much of this...albeit, I still consider the bulk of Magic's career as the main reason why KAJ won the majority of his rings.

In any case, both MJ and Kareem are legitimate GOATs...as are Wilt, Magic, and Russell.

Everyone else is in the next tier.

[guy]

This post is inaccurate. Pippen was an all-star in his 3rd year and in his 2nd year, during the 2/3 of the season he was starting (the part of the season Chicago was not mired at .500 :oldlol: ) his 2nd year stats were similar to his 3rd year stats. The issue was his minutes, not his on the floor production (also look up Chicago's record when Pippen played 35+ minutes versus when he played 25 minutes or less--very revealing...). Moreover, regarding his first season Pippen did in fact start a game as a rookie. The first one was a very important game--a playoff game. The Bulls won the first 2 games and then promptly lost the next 2 and looked on their way to a choke (the first round was a best of 5 back then) against the #6 seed while continuing their streak of losing in the first round. A desperate Doug Collins inserted Pippen into the starting lineup as a hail mary play--and Pippen had his best game of the year as the Bulls narrowly beat the Cavs to finally get out the first round. Pippen then remained a starter in the ECSF.

In other words, minus Pippen the Bulls were on their way to another first round loss in 88' and were a 0.500 team with Pippen as a 25 mpg bench player in 89' (basically even with MJ they were a 0.500 team during that era--38-44, 9-9, 40-42, and yes 50-32 but minus Pippen that would have resulted in a first round defeat after choking away a 2-0 lead and they started 89' 13-12). Then Pippen becomes a permanent starter and the Bulls promptly go on a 9-2 roll and start making ECF's. The rest is history. :pimp:

Ummm Bulls win the first two games at home, and then lose the next two on the road, and then they are heading home on their way to a choke? That's not on their way to a choke. That's a common occurrence in NBA history where the home team dominates. Stop overdramatizing shit.

[TheMan]

This is an agenda thread started by a retarded LeStan. Life is too short to waste on these dumbasses. Will discuss basketball related issues in a serious thread started by an adult (if I can find one) :lol

The rest of you guys, stay wasting your time in this stupid troll thread :rolleyes:

[LAZERUSS]

Ummm Bulls win the first two games at home, and then lose the next two on the road, and then they are heading home on their way to a choke? That's not on their way to a choke. That's a common occurrence in NBA history where the home team dominates. Stop overdramatizing shit.

The biggest black eye to MJ's legacy was not so much early in his playoff career, but rather, at his near peak. In his 92-93 season, he led Chicago to a 57-25 record, and a championship. He promptly retired, and the Bulls scrambled to replace him....with Kukoc and Myers. The 93-94 Bulls went 55-27, and then lost a close (and controversial) seven game series to the 56-26 Knicks. The Knicks then went on to lose a close seven game series against the 58-24 Rockets (in fact, they outscored the Rockets in that series.)

The above suggests that the Bulls were a true championship contender withOUT Jordan.

The very next year, a REFRESHED (not RUSTY as some would suggest) Jordan came back late in the season, and led Chicago to a 13-4 record. However, and without Horace Grant, the Bulls were beaten by the Magic in the ECSF.

They then acquired Dennis Rodman the very next year, and the rest is history.

The REALITY was, MJ was playing with the best rosters in the league in the 90's. True, he was able to win with them. But these rosters were able to contend for a title without him.

[DonDadda59]

The biggest black eye to MJ's legacy was not so much early in his playoff career, but rather, at his near peak. In his 92-93 season, he led Chicago to a 57-25 record, and a championship. He promptly retired, and the Bulls scrambled to replace him....with Kukoc and Myers. The 93-94 Bulls went 55-27, and then lost a close (and controversial) seven game series to the 56-26 Knicks. The Knicks then went on to lose a close seven game series against the 58-24 Rockets (in fact, they outscored the Rockets in that series.)

The above suggests that the Bulls were a true championship contender withOUT Jordan.

The '94 Bulls were a 'championship contender' in the same way that the Bulls this year were championship contenders. Losing in the second round is just that.


The very next year, a REFRESHED (not RUSTY as some would suggest) Jordan came back late in the season, and led Chicago to a 13-4 record. However, and without Horace Grant, the Bulls were beaten by the Magic in the ECSF.

So I guess Horace Grant = GOAT, because as soon as he left, Chicago was struggling to be a .500 team in '95 before Jordan came back... and like you pointed out, Orlando knocked off the Bulls when he was on their squad.


They then acquired Dennis Rodman the very next year, and the rest is history.

You're giving Rodman entirely too much credit. The Bulls going from a .500 level squad to 72 wins and a championship was not due to them acquiring Dennis. He obviously impacted them positively, but nowhere near the level people sometimes suggest.


The REALITY was, MJ was playing with the best rosters in the league in the 90's. True, he was able to win with them. But these rosters were able to contend for a title without him.

Barkley's Suns, Shaq's Magic (especially after acquiring Grant), Shaq's Lakers, Payton's Sonics were all either equally or more talented. There wasn't the talent disparity that other eras in NBA History had (60s, 80s).

[LAZERUSS]

The '94 Bulls were a 'championship contender' in the same way that the Bulls this year were championship contenders. Losing in the second round is just that.



So I guess Horace Grant = GOAT, because as soon as he left, Chicago was struggling to be a .500 team in '95 before Jordan came back... and like you pointed out, Orlando knocked off the Bulls when he was on their squad.



You're giving Rodman entirely too much credit. The Bulls going from a .500 level squad to 72 wins and a championship was not due to them acquiring Dennis. He obviously impacted them positively, but nowhere near the level people sometimes suggest.



Barkley's Suns, Shaq's Magic (especially after acquiring Grant), Shaq's Lakers, Payton's Sonics were all either equally or more talented. There wasn't the talent disparity that other eras in NBA History had (60s, 80s).

If you remove Barkley, Shaq (on either team), or Payton from their respective teams, and they were not going to challenge for a title like the '94 Bulls did. Again, that '94 team came within an eyelash of beating a Knick team that would go on and outplay the eventual champion Rockets in the Finals.

[Jameerthefear]

I agree with much of this...albeit, I still consider the bulk of Magic's career as the main reason why KAJ won the majority of his rings.

In any case, both MJ and Kareem are legitimate GOATs...as are Wilt, Magic, and Russell.

Everyone else is in the next tier.
Nice try old man.

[jzek]

Hard to argue with that. :confusedshrug:

[guy]

The biggest black eye to MJ's legacy was not so much early in his playoff career, but rather, at his near peak. In his 92-93 season, he led Chicago to a 57-25 record, and a championship. He promptly retired, and the Bulls scrambled to replace him....with Kukoc and Myers. The 93-94 Bulls went 55-27, and then lost a close (and controversial) seven game series to the 56-26 Knicks. The Knicks then went on to lose a close seven game series against the 58-24 Rockets (in fact, they outscored the Rockets in that series.)

The above suggests that the Bulls were a true championship contender withOUT Jordan.

The very next year, a REFRESHED (not RUSTY as some would suggest) Jordan came back late in the season, and led Chicago to a 13-4 record. However, and without Horace Grant, the Bulls were beaten by the Magic in the ECSF.

They then acquired Dennis Rodman the very next year, and the rest is history.

The REALITY was, MJ was playing with the best rosters in the league in the 90's. True, he was able to win with them. But these rosters were able to contend for a title without him.

Yea real black eye.:rolleyes: it's something used by only some agenda-driven nerds who dedicate a ridiculous amount of their lives on an Internet forum to trying to diminish his legacy. I'm sure he's really feeling the pain :oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

Yea real black eye.:rolleyes: it's something used by only some agenda-driven nerds who dedicate a ridiculous amount of their lives on an Internet forum to trying to diminish his legacy. I'm sure he's really feeling the pain :oldlol:


Jordan is a GOAT candidate. As are Wilt, Kareem, Magic, and Russell.

None of them won without solid rosters.

Arguably, only Chamberlain carried pathetic rosters, that played even worse in the post-season, to near titles (and against the most loaded rosters in NBA history.)

[DonDadda59]

If you remove Barkley, Shaq (on either team), or Payton from their respective teams, and they were not going to challenge for a title like the '94 Bulls did. Again, that '94 team came within an eyelash of beating a Knick team that would go on and outplay the eventual champion Rockets in the Finals.

Again, losing in the 2nd round isn't 'challenging for a title' :lol

And for the record, after Shaq left the Magic won 45 games with Penny only playing in 59 (Grant 67). Can't help but think a fully healthy Penny helps get them to 50-55 wins and a possible 2nd round bid (lost 3-2 to the Heat in a tight series).

The Suns won 53 games the season before Chuck arrived and challenged for a title, losing in the second round.

Same with the Lakers the season before Shaq got there- 53 wins.

[k0kakw0rld]

This is an agenda thread started by a retarded LeStan. Life is too short to waste on these dumbasses. Will discuss basketball related issues in a serious thread started by an adult (if I can find one) :lol

The rest of you guys, stay wasting your time in this stupid troll thread :rolleyes:
So because we dont believe MJ is the GOAT, we kids?

I brought legitimate facts, fvck you mean agenda? You are an idiot it's unbelievable. MJ stans are the worst. They brought the "He scored 63 pts vs the Celtics" bullsh!t lol He f*cking lost that game. In this era they be callin that (Empty Stat$). I don't care whether it was his first, second, third year who gives a fvck, still empty.

The man retires and his team managed to make the playoffs winning 50+ games. $tacked. Meanwhile, the kid from Akron Ohio...(Do I really need to explain what we saw from Miami and Cleveland before/after Bron)?

[Fudge]

Michael Jordan is far and away the GOAT.

Deal with it.

[DonDadda59]

The man retires and his team managed to make the playoffs winning 50+ games. $tacked. Meanwhile, the kid from Akron Ohio...(Do I really need to explain what we saw from Miami and Cleveland before/after Bron)?

Miami won a title with Wade before Bron got to Miami. I think that trumps 'challenging for a title' with a second round exit like Pippen did without Jordan.

But only by a smidge. :lol

[97 bulls]

Again, losing in the 2nd round isn't 'challenging for a title' :lol

And for the record, after Shaq left the Magic won 45 games with Penny only playing in 59 (Grant 67). Can't help but think a fully healthy Penny helps get them to 50-55 wins and a possible 2nd round bid (lost 3-2 to the Heat in a tight series).

The Suns won 53 games the season before Chuck arrived and challenged for a title, losing in the second round.

Same with the Lakers the season before Shaq got there- 53 wins.
The Magic also got Rony Seikley. Hed be no worst than a top 3 Center today.

The Suns were considered a good team even before Barkley. As were the Lakers.

Most of all, you fail to acknowledge the reasoning behind the Bulls 94 season. Jordan fans continuously try to paint a picture of Jordan literally winning championships by himself. That he had no significant talent. Even going so far as to call all his teammates scrubs. Scrubs dont win 55 games bro. Damn good teams do.

The reason they're considered as contenders was because it took seven games and a very bad call for them to get eliminated. Mind you by a team that took the eventual Champs to.seven games themselves. If nothing else, that tells me they were on par with the Rocket and Knicks.

Even the NBA came out and admitted that was a bad call.

[97 bulls]

So because we dont believe MJ is the GOAT, we kids?

I brought legitimate facts, fvck you mean agenda? You are an idiot it's unbelievable. MJ stans are the worst. They brought the "He scored 63 pts vs the Celtics" bullsh!t lol He f*cking lost that game. In this era they be callin that (Empty Stat$). I don't care whether it was his first, second, third year who gives a fvck, still empty.

The man retires and his team managed to make the playoffs winning 50+ games. $tacked. Meanwhile, the kid from Akron Ohio...(Do I really need to explain what we saw from Miami and Cleveland before/after Bron)?
Lets not forget the Heat also got Bosh. And their record didn't improve nearly as much as the Bulls when they got back Jordan and Rodman

[DonDadda59]

The Magic also got Rony Seikley. Hed be no worst than a top 3 Center today.

The Suns were considered a good team even before Barkley. As were the Lakers.

Most of all, you fail to acknowledge the reasoning behind the Bulls 94 season. Jordan fans continuously try to paint a picture of Jordan literally winning championships by himself. That he had no significant talent. Even going so far as to call all his teammates scrubs. Scrubs dont win 55 games bro. Damn good teams do.

The reason they're considered as contenders was because it took seven games and a very bad call for them to get eliminated. Mind you by a team that took the eventual Champs to.seven games themselves. If nothing else, that tells me they were on par with the Rocket and Knicks.

Even the NBA came out and admitted that was a bad call.

F*ck outta here with that shit :whatever:

And you can try to spin it whatever way you want but losing in the second round is not 'contending for a championship'. Did the Suns qualify as competing for a championship that season too? Took the eventual champs to 7. :confusedshrug:

[97 bulls]

F*ck outta here with that shit :whatever:

And you can try to spin it whatever way you want but losing in the second round is not 'contending for a championship'. Did the Suns qualify as competing for a championship that season too? Took the eventual champs to 7. :confusedshrug:
Dude. The Bulls SHOULD'VE WON THAT SERIES. Even the NBA head of officiating Darrel Garettson admitted the Bulls got hosed.

[97 bulls]

Heres the article.


http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1994-10-13/sports/9410130277_1_knicks-guard-hubert-davis-bulls-hue-hollins

[3ball]

Dude. The Bulls SHOULD'VE WON THAT SERIES. Even the NBA head of officiating Darrel Garettson admitted the Bulls got hosed.


Garretson wasn't even calling that game - he was just a bystander giving his opinion like you or me - unless you have a quote from the ACTUAL ref Hue Hollins.. but you don't.

Btw, you're not understanding what MJ did - here's what he did: MJ took this year's 55-win Memphis Grizzlies to a 3-peat, 72 wins, 2 MVP's, 3 FMVP's, with GOAT stats and clutch the entire time... This is after ALREADY leading the Griz to a 3-peat previously before a break to play baseball - so the 2nd three-peat was a thorough answer to everyone's question of whether he could do it again.

Also, MJ did all this (with the Griz) while undertaking the highest-ever offensive load: 25.1 shots per game in the playoffs - compare that to Lebron's 18.9 career average.. Lebron actually took an MJ-like 25 shots per game in the recent Chicago series, but he only shot 35% at that volume, compared to MJ's 48.7% career average at that volume.

[3ball]

Of course, we all know this year's Grizzlies were way better than the 1994 Bulls - the Griz can win 55 games EVERY YEAR, whereas those Bulls were only capable of 55 wins that particular season.

Griz also have more talent and wouldn't need MJ to average 30 PPG (although pace is slower today than during MJ's 2nd three-peat, so maybe he'd still get 30 on the more talented Griz)

[Quickening]

Wtf the bulls were that stacked? the Grizzlies plus a superstar? Can you imagine putting Durant or Lebron on the Grizzlies team.... no wonder MJ won so easy in the 90s weak era, and was 1-9 in 80s

[TheMarkMadsen]

Weak thread only 17000 views while using the biggest name in bball

step your drawing power up jabroni

[diamenz]

who gives a shit about numbers, rings or silly ish semantics. when you watch mj, he is goat.

[julizaver]

Kareem without Magic (5 MVPs, 1 title) - Greatest of all time

Bill Russell without Cousy (1 MVP, 5 titles) - Greatest Winner

MJ falls to the #3 spot.

Can't deny facts. I dont give a fvck about ESPN/NIKE. They been brainwashing you fools with them Space Jam and I believe I can fly sh!t.

Talking about easy path to the finals, how about the bulls 1998 run? :confusedshrug:

MJ lost 3 times in the first round in one of the weakest era ever.

Had a losing record three times and still made the playoffs
(38-44) lost 1-3 vs Milwaukee
(30-52) then 0-3 vs Bird
(40-42) and swept again by Bird and the Celtics

:applause:

I'm ready to expose this n!gga like an art gallery.

80s were one of the (if not) the most stacked eras of basketball history.
One man could not beat alone whole team for series, it could happen for one or two exceptional games, but not for a series.

We speak a lot about MJ being in his primes in 90-93, but during late 80s he was as unstoppable as human bein could be when on court. He was EFFICIENT VOLUME SCORRER with great defensive skills. Pippen was nowhere the player MJ was and there is no question about it. That's a fact !!!

Every person witnessing MJ play during his prime will tell you this.

[LAZERUSS]

80s were one of the (if not) the most stacked eras of basketball history.
One man could not beat alone whole team for series, it could happen for one or two exceptional games, but not for a series.

We speak a lot about MJ being in his primes in 90-93, but during late 80s he was as unstoppable as human bein could be when on court. He was EFFICIENT VOLUME SCORRER with great defensive skills. Pippen was nowhere the player MJ was and there is no question about it. That's a fact !!!

Every person witnessing MJ play during his prime will tell you this.

The bolded is VERY important. Why? Because a PEAK MJ, in his greatest statistical seasons, couldn't win a ring. How come?

Same thing for Kareem, Bird, and other's. Chamberlain gets ripped here for not winning title in his 50 ppg season, but he single-handedly took a roster, the core of which was the same last place roster he inherited two years earlier, now older and worse, to a game seven, two point loss against a HOF-laden 60-20 Celtic team. And yet, MJ in his highest scoring season, was swept by a HOF-laden Celtic team in the first round. And an MJ that put up a 33-8-8- .538 season was beaten by the "Bad Boys" 4-2 in the ECF's.

The reality is/was...without great supporting casts, these GOATs would not win rings. And to hold rings as the ultimate achievement, in a team sport, is simply unrealistic and unfair.

[riseagainst]

OP is a certified retard.

[kshutts1]

A mystery regarding MJ is why he, of the very top tier of legends, did the least with poor rosters. It is ironic since MJ did the most with good rosters (i.e. consecutive seasons of 72 and 69 wins).

MJ is the #1 reason Chicago had the success it did in the 90's but the facts are a testament to Pippen's role.

Chicago without Pippen as a starter (1985-1989)

38-44, 1-3 in playoffs
30-52, 0-3 in playoffs
40-42, 0-3 in playoffs
50-32, 2-2 in playoffs (he started and had a big Game 5)
13-11

Chicago with Pippen as a starter (1989-1994)

33-23 (they went 4-6 when Pip did not play), ECF
55-27, ECF
61-21, champs
67-15, champs
57-25, champs
51-21 (without MJ), ECSF

I'm a huge Pippen fan, but at least provide all the facts.

85/86 season - 23 teams.
86/87 - 23.
87/88 - 23
88/89 - 25
90/91 - 27
Remains 27 until..
95/96 - 29.

Bulls win totals match up pretty well with the expanding league, wouldn't you say? Talent dilution at its finest. Not to mention the improvement of Pippen. So not even taking into account other people, but the league expansion alone would have increased Jordan's wins.

Please don't act like it's all Pippen. Everyone should know that Jordan was the driving force behind that team, and that Pippen would be next to nothing, historically, without him.

[97 bulls]

Garretson wasn't even calling that game - he was just a bystander giving his opinion like you or me - unless you have a quote from the ACTUAL ref Hue Hollins.. but you don't.
I don't because according to the article, he refused to comment. I don't see how who was actually the ref would make a difference. Everyone agrees it was a bad call.



Btw, you're not understanding what MJ did - here's what he did: MJ took this year's 55-win Memphis Grizzlies to a 3-peat, 72 wins, 2 MVP's, 3 FMVP's, with GOAT stats and clutch the entire time... This is after ALREADY leading the Griz to a 3-peat previously before a break to play baseball - so the 2nd three-peat was a thorough answer to everyone's question of whether he could do it again.

I totally understand what he did. And you used a perfect example. He took a team capable of 50 plus wins without him and made them record setters. Where we lose touch is when you try to say they were scrubs. A team full of scrubs don't win 55 games bro.


Also, MJ did all this (with the Griz) while undertaking the highest-ever offensive load: 25.1 shots per game in the playoffs - compare that to Lebron's 18.9 career average.. Lebron actually took an MJ-like 25 shots per game in the recent Chicago series, but he only shot 35% at that volume, compared to MJ's 48.7% career average at that volume.
Amd I've already told you. They didn't need him taking that many shots. And even alluded to what he did in the Olympics and when he came back in Washington. That's just who Jordan was.

[97 bulls]

I'm a huge Pippen fan, but at least provide all the facts.

85/86 season - 23 teams.
86/87 - 23.
87/88 - 23
88/89 - 25
90/91 - 27
Remains 27 until..
95/96 - 29.

Bulls win totals match up pretty well with the expanding league, wouldn't you say? Talent dilution at its finest. Not to mention the improvement of Pippen. So not even taking into account other people, but the league expansion alone would have increased Jordan's wins.

Please don't act like it's all Pippen. Everyone should know that Jordan was the driving force behind that team, and that Pippen would be next to nothing, historically, without him.
Then why didn't the Showtime Lakers threaten 70 in 89/90 when the league expanded????? Or the Pistons?

The 94 Bulls won 55 games playing in a league with the same amount if teams as the Late 80s Lakers and Pistons had to endure. You're gonna tell us that adding Jordan to that 94 team doesn't net another 10-15 wins?

[kshutts1]

Then why didn't the Showtime Lakers threaten 70 in 89/90 when the league expanded????? Or the Pistons?

The 94 Bulls won 55 games playing in a league with the same amount if teams as the Late 80s Lakers and Pistons had to endure. You're gonna tell us that adding Jordan to that 94 team doesn't net another 10-15 wins?
Lakers and Pistons were on the decline, perhaps? And it's just plain difficult to approach 70 wins. Hence it being done almost never. I'm not detracting from the Bulls record later on; that was truly marvelous, and the "perfect storm" of everything. But please don't toss out "70 wins" as if every team can reach that. 60 is an accomplishment, for any team, much less 70.

And yes, I'm going to tell you that simply adding one player doesn't magically increase wins that dramatically. So many factors are at play. Pippen's role would be greatly reduced, as would everyone else's, so Jordan is not simply "added in", but rather replacing and adding some.

[Roundball_Rock]

85/86 season - 23 teams.
86/87 - 23.
87/88 - 23
88/89 - 25

Yeah--and the results were mediocrity year after year until Pippen became a starter (38, 30, 40, 50, 13-12. The 50 looks nice until you see that the Bulls would have lost in the first round if Pippen did not start Game 5 and play well in his first start). Coincidence? The change was immediate. From a 13-12 start to 9-2 with Pippen as a permanent starter. I think Chicago went 24-11 when Pippen playing 35+ (and had a terrible record when he played 25 minutes or less and went 4-5 when he did not play). Yeah we get it. Jordan is the GOAT along with KAJ but Pippen's installation as a starter was the watershed moment for the Bulls. Before that: year after year of mediocrity; after that: they start contending. I don't think this was a mere coincidence.

[kshutts1]

Yeah--and the results were mediocrity year after year until Pippen became a starter (38, 30, 40, 50, 13-12. The 50 looks nice until you see that the Bulls would have lost in the first round if Pippen did not start Game 5 and play well in his first start). Coincidence? The change was immediate. From a 13-12 start to 9-2 with Pippen as a permanent starter. I think Chicago went 24-11 when Pippen playing 35+ (and had a terrible record when he played 25 minutes or less and went 4-5 when he did not play). Yeah we get it. Jordan is the GOAT along with KAJ but Pippen's installation as a starter was the watershed moment for the Bulls. Before that: year after year of mediocrity; after that: they start contending. I don't think this was a mere coincidence.
I was commenting on win totals.
First, I'm not detracting from Pippen, at all. But he is not the sole reason. It's a fact that the league became more "watered down" right as Pippen became good or great.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Just read title, but Oscar is the #2 GOAT PG. Kareem literally hasn't won a ring without the 2 greatest PG's of all time.

:confusedshrug:

[Prometheus]

Fudge is the greatest poster in the history of ISH...

He has what? Five posts in this thread? They're all short too. And he owns it.

Fudge :bowdown:

[Eric Cartman]

Fudge is the greatest poster in the history of ISH...

He has what? Five posts in this thread? They're all short too. And he owns it.

Fudge :bowdown:
Dude's been killing it lately.

Might soon see Peak Fudge :rockon:

[Paul George 24]

Kareem without Magic (5 MVPs, 1 title) - Greatest of all time

Bill Russell without Cousy (1 MVP, 5 titles) - Greatest Winner

MJ falls to the #3 spot.

Can't deny facts. I dont give a fvck about ESPN/NIKE. They been brainwashing you fools with them Space Jam and I believe I can fly sh!t.

Talking about easy path to the finals, how about the bulls 1998 run? :confusedshrug:

MJ lost 3 times in the first round in one of the weakest era ever.

Had a losing record three times and still made the playoffs
(38-44) lost 1-3 vs Milwaukee
(30-52) then 0-3 vs Bird
(40-42) and swept again by Bird and the Celtics

:applause:

I'm ready to expose this n!gga like an art gallery.

lebron without wade 0 rings,0 fmvp

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-19-2015/KadDbL.gif

[juju151111]

Yeah--and the results were mediocrity year after year until Pippen became a starter (38, 30, 40, 50, 13-12. The 50 looks nice until you see that the Bulls would have lost in the first round if Pippen did not start Game 5 and play well in his first start). Coincidence? The change was immediate. From a 13-12 start to 9-2 with Pippen as a permanent starter. I think Chicago went 24-11 when Pippen playing 35+ (and had a terrible record when he played 25 minutes or less and went 4-5 when he did not play). Yeah we get it. Jordan is the GOAT along with KAJ but Pippen's installation as a starter was the watershed moment for the Bulls. Before that: year after year of mediocrity; after that: they start contending. I don't think this was a mere coincidence.
Pippen was a bench player in 88 when Mj won the Mvp and moved on in the playoffs.

[juju151111]

Kareem without Magic (5 MVPs, 1 title) - Greatest of all time

Bill Russell without Cousy (1 MVP, 5 titles) - Greatest Winner

MJ falls to the #3 spot.

Can't deny facts. I dont give a fvck about ESPN/NIKE. They been brainwashing you fools with them Space Jam and I believe I can fly sh!t.

Talking about easy path to the finals, how about the bulls 1998 run? :confusedshrug:

MJ lost 3 times in the first round in one of the weakest era ever.

Had a losing record three times and still made the playoffs
(38-44) lost 1-3 vs Milwaukee
(30-52) then 0-3 vs Bird
(40-42) and swept again by Bird and the Celtics

:applause:

I'm ready to expose this n!gga like an art gallery.
How did a bench player in 88 affect My mvp in 88

[Straight_Ballin]

Kareem without Magic (5 MVPs, 1 title) - Greatest of all time

Bill Russell without Cousy (1 MVP, 5 titles) - Greatest Winner

MJ falls to the #3 spot.

Can't deny facts. I dont give a fvck about ESPN/NIKE. They been brainwashing you fools with them Space Jam and I believe I can fly sh!t.

Talking about easy path to the finals, how about the bulls 1998 run? :confusedshrug:

MJ lost 3 times in the first round in one of the weakest era ever.

Had a losing record three times and still made the playoffs
(38-44) lost 1-3 vs Milwaukee
(30-52) then 0-3 vs Bird
(40-42) and swept again by Bird and the Celtics

:applause:

I'm ready to expose this n!gga like an art gallery.

You ain't exposing shit. Go troll somewhere else and accept the fact that you are watching watered down basketball in an inferior era. Don't you have some flop gifs to be watching which your generation considers to be good basketball? :lol

MJ didn't win in 98 because he wasn't a colluding beta.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=2

[Spurs5Rings2014]

The bolded is VERY important. Why? Because a PEAK MJ, in his greatest statistical seasons, couldn't win a ring. How come?

Same thing for Kareem, Bird, and other's. Chamberlain gets ripped here for not winning title in his 50 ppg season, but he single-handedly took a roster, the core of which was the same last place roster he inherited two years earlier, now older and worse, to a game seven, two point loss against a HOF-laden 60-20 Celtic team. And yet, MJ in his highest scoring season, was swept by a HOF-laden Celtic team in the first round. And an MJ that put up a 33-8-8- .538 season was beaten by the "Bad Boys" 4-2 in the ECF's.

The reality is/was...without great supporting casts, these GOATs would not win rings. And to hold rings as the ultimate achievement, in a team sport, is simply unrealistic and unfair.

This is why Duncan is in that first tier of GOAT candidates. He won a ring in his PEAK year WITHOUT a great supporting cast like the other GOAT's. THAT'S one of the key things that separates him from the other GOAT's and gives him an edge over them. Hakeem is similar, but he isn't the overall winner that Duncan is. Wilt and them boys needed other multiple GOAT level top 10/15 players while the best Duncan had was 14 PPG rookie Tony Parker and David Robinson's corpse. It's not even close, Duncan is top 5 dead or alive.

:bowdown:

[Straight_Ballin]

This is why Duncan is in that first tier of GOAT candidates. He won a ring in his PEAK year WITHOUT a great supporting cast like the other GOAT's. THAT'S one of the key things that separates him from the other GOAT's and gives him an edge over them. Hakeem is similar, but he isn't the overall winner that Duncan is. Wilt and them boys needed other multiple GOAT level top 10/15 players while the best Duncan had was 14 PPG rookie Tony Parker and David Robinson's corpse. It's not even close, Duncan is top 5 dead or alive.

:bowdown:

Top 5 and it's not even close. To add this is how Duncan looks when he receives an award. Dude has freon running in his veins. Just makes Jordan look even more impressive given that despite all that Duncan has done, Jordan still has done even more. What do you even say to that?

http://cdn-jpg.si.com/sites/default/files/2013/05/fofrs.jpg

[dunksby]

I gotchu

KAJ first 3 years without Magic

1 title
2 MVPs
1 final
2 scoring titles
Playoff record: 23-12
0 losing record

MJ first 3 years without Pippen

0 title
0 MVP
0 NBA final
playoff record: 1-9
1 scoring title
3 losing records
Shut it down :eek: :eek:

[ApexPredator]

Shut it down :eek: :eek:

We gonna act like young Jordan couldn't have gotten titles and MVPs if he weren't injured and had Oscar to help his team record and playoff hopes?

[dunksby]

We gonna act like young Jordan couldn't have gotten titles and MVPs if he weren't injured and had Oscar to help his team record and playoff hopes?
Yea he had a past his prime Oscar, Kareem was the most NBA ready great only rivaled perhaps by Wilt, he won as soon as he got the minimum help he needed for a championship. Where are Magic's and Oscar's rings on their own? Kareem is the only constant.

[k0kakw0rld]

lebron without wade 0 rings,0 fmvp

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-19-2015/KadDbL.gif
2 MVPs :pimp: 2 all star MVPs

[Paul George 24]

2 MVPs :pimp: 2 all star MVPs
WEAK EAST & WEAK ERA :lol

CHOKE AT 2011,SCORES LESS THAN WHAT ??? 2PTS:roll:

[Paul George 24]

Kareem without Magic (5 MVPs, 1 title) - Greatest of all time

Bill Russell without Cousy (1 MVP, 5 titles) - Greatest Winner

MJ falls to the #3 spot.

Can't deny facts. I dont give a fvck about ESPN/NIKE. They been brainwashing you fools with them Space Jam and I believe I can fly sh!t.

Talking about easy path to the finals, how about the bulls 1998 run? :confusedshrug:

MJ lost 3 times in the first round in one of the weakest era ever.

Had a losing record three times and still made the playoffs
(38-44) lost 1-3 vs Milwaukee
(30-52) then 0-3 vs Bird
(40-42) and swept again by Bird and the Celtics

:applause:

I'm ready to expose this n!gga like an art gallery.

LEBEON AGAISNT SPURS IN 2014,ALMSOT GET SWEEP,EVEN MJ GETS SWEEP MJ STILL PUT A FIGHT AND SCORES 63 AGAISNT ONE OF GOAT TEAM BOSTON :lol

[k0kakw0rld]

LEBEON AGAISNT SPURS IN 2014,ALMSOT GET SWEEP,EVEN MJ GETS SWEEP MJ STILL PUT A FIGHT AND SCORES 63 AGAISNT ONE OF GOAT TEAM BOSTON :lol
Scored 63 and lost the game (empty stats) in 2OT.

[ApexPredator]

Scored 63 and lost the game (empty stats) in 2OT.

Empty stats are better than terrible stats while getting spanked, which LeBron has done twice in the Finals.

[Paul George 24]

Scored 63 and lost the game (empty stats) in 2OT.

MUCH BETTER THAN LEFLOP GET SWEEP EVERY GAME AND LET LEONARD OWNED HIM :roll:

[k0kakw0rld]

Empty stats are better than terrible stats while getting spanked, which LeBron has done twice in the Finals.
The point of this thread has nothing to do with LeBron, why twisting everything.

KAJ >>>>>> MJ

[Paul George 24]

The point of this thread has nothing to do with LeBron, why twisting everything.

KAJ >>>>>> MJ

6-6 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,NUFF SAID :lol

[k0kakw0rld]

Empty stats are better than terrible stats while getting spanked, which LeBron has done twice in the Finals.
You also need to understand that Stats dont tell the all story...Cause we all know who got the stats (56 nba records).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

MJ, Pippen, Kareem, and Magic are definitely [former] players in the league.

[k0kakw0rld]

6-6 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,NUFF SAID :lol
6 mvps >>>> 5 mvps

82 games >>>> 7 games series

[97 bulls]

Lakers and Pistons were on the decline, perhaps?
On the decline????? In 89 and 90? Unbelievable. You guys just make stuff up as you go.



And it's just plain difficult to approach 70 wins. Hence it being done almost never. I'm not detracting from the Bulls record later on; that was truly marvelous, and the "perfect storm" of everything. But please don't toss out "70 wins" as if every team can reach that. 60 is an accomplishment, for any team, much less 70.
Lol. This is your argument. I assume you feel the Pistons and Lakers were better than the Bulls. All three teams played under expansion. The Lakers nor Pistons got close to 70 wins. The best they could muster was 63. The Bulls won 67. Playing in a league with the same amount of teams as were the Lakers and Pistons. This blows your "diluted talent" theory out of the water. Again, because by your own assumption, if you put better teams in the same situation, then there should be at least similar results.


And yes, I'm going to tell you that simply adding one player doesn't magically increase wins that dramatically. So many factors are at play. Pippen's role would be greatly reduced, as would everyone else's, so Jordan is not simply "added in", but rather replacing and adding some.
Added in?????? He played for the team&!!!!!!!! What the hell. And we saw what could ajd would happen when Jordan came back. What are you talking about?

[97 bulls]

The point of this thread has nothing to do with LeBron, why twisting everything.

KAJ >>>>>> MJ
But you aren't acknowledging that both KAJ and MJ were in totally different situations during the time in question.

[Bernkastel]

Magic is the LeBron of the 80's. :basketball

[DonDadda59]

Yea he had a past his prime Oscar, Kareem was the most NBA ready great only rivaled perhaps by Wilt, he won as soon as he got the minimum help he needed for a championship. Where are Magic's and Oscar's rings on their own? Kareem is the only constant.

Look at the Bucks' record during Oscar's tenure there, then compare it to just after he left. Then look at the Lakers record after Kareem went there and before Magic got there (Kareem played with HOFers Adrian Dantley, Gail Goodrich). Then look at the record when Magic joined the squad.

Again, Kareem won MVP when his team was 40-42 and missed the playoffs. The 70s were a hot mess and Lew's record without either Oscar and Magic was dubious at best.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Look at the Bucks' record during Oscar's tenure there, then compare it to just after he left. Then look at the Lakers record after Kareem went there and before Magic got there (Kareem played with HOFers Adrian Dantley, Gail Goodrich). Then look at the record when Magic joined the squad.

Again, Kareem won MVP when his team was 40-42 and missed the playoffs. The 70s were a hot mess and Lew's record without either Oscar and Magic was dubious at best.

Wow, even though KAJ led the team in WS during every season Oscar spent there they dropped from a ~.750% win rate over that 5 year span to a .463 team the year after he left. :eek:

[kshutts1]

On the decline????? In 89 and 90? Unbelievable. You guys just make stuff up as you go.



Lol. This is your argument. I assume you feel the Pistons and Lakers were better than the Bulls. All three teams played under expansion. The Lakers nor Pistons got close to 70 wins. The best they could muster was 63. The Bulls won 67. Playing in a league with the same amount of teams as were the Lakers and Pistons. This blows your "diluted talent" theory out of the water. Again, because by your own assumption, if you put better teams in the same situation, then there should be at least similar results.


Added in?????? He played for the team&!!!!!!!! What the hell. And we saw what could ajd would happen when Jordan came back. What are you talking about?
Sorry. For some godforsaken reason I thought we were talking about the Pippen-led Bulls team. I'll see myself out now. That was embarrassing.

[k0kakw0rld]

You ain't exposing shit. Go troll somewhere else and accept the fact that you are watching watered down basketball in an inferior era. Don't you have some flop gifs to be watching which your generation considers to be good basketball? :lol

MJ didn't win in 98 because he wasn't a colluding beta.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=2
Jordan stans are the worst I swear. This is not an attempt at trolling. Is everything I wrote in the OP a lie? :confusedshrug:

[dunksby]

Look at the Bucks' record during Oscar's tenure there, then compare it to just after he left. Then look at the Lakers record after Kareem went there and before Magic got there (Kareem played with HOFers Adrian Dantley, Gail Goodrich). Then look at the record when Magic joined the squad.

Again, Kareem won MVP when his team was 40-42 and missed the playoffs. The 70s were a hot mess and Lew's record without either Oscar and Magic was dubious at best.
Lakers gutted their squad to get Kareem, look at the Bucks record before (27-55) Kareem and after he joined (56-26). Kareem won MVP awards voted by players not journalists.

[ApexPredator]

6 mvps >>>> 5 mvps

82 games >>>> 7 games series

Know how I know you are a troll? You think the regular season holds more weight than the playoffs.

:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[JellyBean]

Kareem is GOAT on my list, with Jordan #2. But that is my list.

[julizaver]

The reality is/was...without great supporting casts, these GOATs would not win rings. And to hold rings as the ultimate achievement, in a team sport, is simply unrealistic and unfair.

Rings could serve as an argument in case of close comparisions or when we have equity in other areas (skills, primes, impact of the game, individual accomplishments and so on).

[LAZERUSS]

Rings could serve as an argument in case of close comparisions or when we have equity in other areas (skills, primes, impact of the game, individual accomplishments and so on).

Just curious...

In their 10 years in the league together...

swap rosters, including health, and how many rings do Russell and Wilt win?

[97 bulls]

Sorry. For some godforsaken reason I thought we were talking about the Pippen-led Bulls team. I'll see myself out now. That was embarrassing.
Whats embarrassing is you saying the Lakers and Pistons were in decline circa 89/90. Especially the Pistons seeing as how they won both years.

And what I mean by Jordan being on the team is that we dont need to speculate. The 96 Bulls were for all intents and purposes the 94 Bulls with a slight upgrade in Rodman, and a major upgrade in Jordan. And they either got 70 or threatened it every year. 72 wins in 96. 69 wins in 97. 62 wins in 98 with Pippen missing literally half the season.

[Roundball_Rock]

It is ironic to see MJ stans invoke KAJ's record without Magic and Oscar. For MJ you don't even need to use two players to make a similar argument. Yet MJ stans routinely do this with other all-time greats--even though MJ has by worst the worst record apart from his best teammate of any top-tier great (to be fair, MJ's time absent Pippen was early and late in his career. However, MJ also is the only one who took four years to finally get above 0.500 or out the first round. Everyone else was in at least the conference finals by year 3.) The truth is MJ did the best with good teams but did the worst with bad teams among GOAT-caliber players.

Jordan's record without Pippen starting alongside him

38-44, 1-3
9-9, 0-3
40-42, 0-3
50-32, 2-2
13-11
24-11
37-45, 0-0
30-30, 0-0

GOAT gonna GOAT! :bowdown:

In contrast KAJ was in the WCF in 77', had the best record and was hurt by injuries to key players many times in the 70's (MJ was very fortunate his key players did not miss time). Moreover, LA had to gut the team to get him. They had to give up an all-star, a 16/11 center and that year's #2 and #8 picks. Imagine Jordan being traded to, say, New York and the Knicks having to give up Ewing, Oakley, Starks, and Mason in exchange. How bad would that team be even with Mike? You don't get the arguable GOAT in his prime for free.

Playing the "use two players game," if you remove Pippen and Woolridge (a 20+ ppg SF second option that MJ had his first two years) MJ was 0-3 in the playoffs and missed the playoffs in two of those three years.

[ApexPredator]

It is ironic to see MJ stans invoke KAJ's record without Magic and Oscar. For MJ you don't even need to use two players to make a similar argument. Yet MJ stans routinely do this with other all-time greats--even though MJ has by worst the worst record apart from his best teammate of any top-tier great. MJ also is the only one who took four years to finally get above 0.500 or out the first round. The truth is MJ did the best with good teams but did the worst with bad teams among GOAT-caliber players.

Jordan's record without Pippen starting alongside him

38-44, 1-3
9-9, 0-3
40-42, 0-3
50-32, 2-2
13-11
24-11
37-45, 0-0
30-30, 0-0

GOAT gonna GOAT! :bowdown:

In contrast KAJ was in the WCF in 77', had the best record and was hurt by injuries to key players many times in the 70's (MJ was very fortunate his key players did not miss time). Moreover, LA had to gut the team to get him. They had to give up an all-star, a 16/11 center and that year's #2 and #8 picks. Imagine Jordan being traded to, say, New York and the Knicks having to give up Ewing, Oakley, Starks, and Mason in exchange. How bad would that team be even with Mike? You don't get the arguable GOAT in his prime for free.

Playing the "use two players game," if you remove Pippen and Woolridge (a 20+ ppg SF second option that MJ had his first two years) MJ was 0-3 in the playoffs and missed the playoffs in two of those three years.

Man, that skewed logic. So Woolridge gets mention including MJ's rookie year and his injured sophomore year, yet KAJ doesn't get any mention of Oscar Robertson. Btw, that WCF in 77" you mentioned was a 2nd round sweep in his prime in reality, after taking 7 games to get out of the 1st round against a not so impressive Warriors team. :hammerhead:

[The Iron Fist]

:cheers:

Kareem played against 37 of the 50 greatest players ever.

Jordan played against 14.


Kareem turned a team with less than 30 wins, into championship contenders his first year with over 55 wins and a trip to the division finals. In comparison, Jordan improved his teams win total by 11 and then lost in the first round. The impact is, by far in huge favor to Kareem.

Kareems teams won 57 games a year on average; Jordans, 49.

Kareems was in the finals for half of his career, compared to 6 seasons out of 15. 50%>40%.

In those finals, Kareem faced teams that, at times, had at the very least, 3 HOFers.
1971 Bullets
Monroe, Unseld

74 Celtics
Havlicek, Cowens

87 Celtics
Bird, Parrish, McHale, Walton

83 6ers,
Erving, Malone

88 Pistons
Dantley, Dumars, Thomas, Rodman

Thats only 5 finals teams, but I'm sure you get the point.

In comparison, the most Jordan ever faced on a team at one time, two.
91 Lakers
Magic, Worthy

92 Blazers
Drexler

93 Suns
Barkley

96 Sonics
Payton

97 Jazz
Stockton, Malone

98 Jazz
Stockton, Malone


Thats every time Jordan was in the finals, I'm sure you get the point.


Kareem was in the conference finals 70% of his career, in comparison, Jordan was in the conference finals, 50% of the time.
70>50.

Kareems team had 18 winning seasons in the 19 he played. In comparison,
Jordans teams had winning seasons 10 out of 14 times.

Kareem won a Finals MVP at the age of 37.

In comparison,

Jordan was retired for the second time.

At the age of 38, Kareem was still averaging over 23 points a game which was an improvement from his four prior seasons.

In comparison Jordan, a smidge under 23 and much lower than his previous 4 seasons.

Kareem 6 rings=Jordans 6 rings
Kareems 6 MVPs>Jordans 5 MVPs
Jordans 6 FMVPs>Kareems 2 FMVPs
Jordans PPG > Kareems
All time leading scorer-Kareem
Most unblockable shot-Kareem


Michael Jordan was an all time great no doubt, but when you unmask the beast that was Kareem Abdul Jabbar,

the facts just show he was the better winner, leader and champion.

Before you retort that "Kareem had Magic and Oscar",

Oscar never won without Kareem,
and Magic, despite having the same exact team,

never won without Kareem.


Not really a coincidence as to how much he impacted his teams success.



And thats just covering one era of Kareems dominance.



:bowdown:

[kshutts1]

Whats embarrassing is you saying the Lakers and Pistons were in decline circa 89/90. Especially the Pistons seeing as how they won both years.

And what I mean by Jordan being on the team is that we dont need to speculate. The 96 Bulls were for all intents and purposes the 94 Bulls with a slight upgrade in Rodman, and a major upgrade in Jordan. And they either got 70 or threatened it every year. 72 wins in 96. 69 wins in 97. 62 wins in 98 with Pippen missing literally half the season.
I more meant the first year the Bulls won the title being the year the Lakers/Pistons MAY have been in decline. I realize the Bulls beat the Lakers in the Finals, but at the same time, after the Bulls won, neither of those teams really made much noise. the 88-90 time frame was their apex. After that, they were on the downswing, even if still good/great teams.

And as for the 94 v 96, I'd argue that Ron Harper and Dennis Rodman were rather large improvements.

But regardless. I was just trying to point out how the league expansion helped some of the good/great teams win more games. The always-great teams wouldn't get much of a boost, because they would win no matter who they played. So early Jordan/Pippen Bulls, before they really hit their stride, would arguably benefit more so than the in-their-stride Lakers or Pistons.

Just another factor that shouldn't be overlooked is all. Another argument that some use against Jordan, as well. In theory, it's easier to win in a more diluted league, in particular when said dilution occurs right as said player enters his prime.

[97 bulls]

I more meant the first year the Bulls won the title being the year the Lakers/Pistons MAY have been in decline. I realize the Bulls beat the Lakers in the Finals, but at the same time, after the Bulls won, neither of those teams really made much noise. the 88-90 time frame was their apex. After that, they were on the downswing, even if still good/great teams.

And as for the 94 v 96, I'd argue that Ron Harper and Dennis Rodman were rather large improvements.

But regardless. I was just trying to point out how the league expansion helped some of the good/great teams win more games. The always-great teams wouldn't get much of a boost, because they would win no matter who they played. So early Jordan/Pippen Bulls, before they really hit their stride, would arguably benefit more so than the in-their-stride Lakers or Pistons.

Just another factor that shouldn't be overlooked is all. Another argument that some use against Jordan, as well. In theory, it's easier to win in a more diluted league, in particular when said dilution occurs right as said player enters his prime.
I understand the diluted talent theory. I just think its extreme. I dont think adding a few teams hurt the talent especially when basketball has gained in popularity over the last few decades.Meaning that the better aathletes are choosing to play basketball as opposed to baseball or football. Factor this in with the influx of European talent and an argument can be made that its harder to win now and in the 90s than in previous years.

[LAZERUSS]

:cheers:

Kareem played against 37 of the 50 greatest players ever.

Jordan played against 14.


Kareem turned a team with less than 30 wins, into championship contenders his first year with over 55 wins and a trip to the division finals. In comparison, Jordan improved his teams win total by 11 and then lost in the first round. The impact is, by far in huge favor to Kareem.

Kareems teams won 57 games a year on average; Jordans, 49.

Kareems was in the finals for half of his career, compared to 6 seasons out of 15. 50%>40%.

In those finals, Kareem faced teams that, at times, had at the very least, 3 HOFers.
1971 Bullets
Monroe, Unseld

74 Celtics
Havlicek, Cowens

87 Celtics
Bird, Parrish, McHale, Walton

83 6ers,
Erving, Malone

88 Pistons
Dantley, Dumars, Thomas, Rodman

Thats only 5 finals teams, but I'm sure you get the point.

In comparison, the most Jordan ever faced on a team at one time, two.
91 Lakers
Magic, Worthy

92 Blazers
Drexler

93 Suns
Barkley

96 Sonics
Payton

97 Jazz
Stockton, Malone

98 Jazz
Stockton, Malone


Thats every time Jordan was in the finals, I'm sure you get the point.


Kareem was in the conference finals 70% of his career, in comparison, Jordan was in the conference finals, 50% of the time.
70>50.

Kareems team had 18 winning seasons in the 19 he played. In comparison,
Jordans teams had winning seasons 10 out of 14 times.

Kareem won a Finals MVP at the age of 37.

In comparison,

Jordan was retired for the second time.

At the age of 38, Kareem was still averaging over 23 points a game which was an improvement from his four prior seasons.

In comparison Jordan, a smidge under 23 and much lower than his previous 4 seasons.

Kareem 6 rings=Jordans 6 rings
Kareems 6 MVPs>Jordans 5 MVPs
Jordans 6 FMVPs>Kareems 2 FMVPs
Jordans PPG > Kareems
All time leading scorer-Kareem
Most unblockable shot-Kareem


Michael Jordan was an all time great no doubt, but when you unmask the beast that was Kareem Abdul Jabbar,

the facts just show he was the better winner, leader and champion.

Before you retort that "Kareem had Magic and Oscar",

Oscar never won without Kareem,
and Magic, despite having the same exact team,

never won without Kareem.


Not really a coincidence as to how much he impacted his teams success.



And thats just covering one era of Kareems dominance.



:bowdown:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Magic LED the Lakers to all FIVE of Kareem's "rings", including his ROOKIE season, when Kareem quit on the team after game five with a "sprain." Of course it was MAGIC with a game for the ages in the clinching game six (on the road...and in a rout)...all while Kareem watched from his couch while eating popcorn.

How about the '82 Finals, when Bob McAdoo put up the same basic numbers as Kareem, but in far less minutes? Magic again won a DESERVING FMVP.

KAJ won a deserving FMVP in '85, but it MAGIC who was their true leader and playoff MVP.

How about '87, when Magic basically led BOTH teams in almost every statistical category, while "third-wheel" Kareem rode his coat-tails?

And then the laughable one... '88. Kareem was just putrid in the post-season, horrific in the Finals, and even much worse in game seven of the Finals. Hell, LA would have gotten more out of Cloris Leachman than what Kareem gave them in '88. The REALITY was, the Lakers, behind MAGIC, won that title DESPITE Kareem.

Of course, when Magic went down, Kareem quietly led his team to a slaughter in the next Finals.

Or the FACT that the Lakers IMPROVED AFTER Kareem...winning 63 games, which was their second best record in the entire decade of the 80's. Or that Magic then led an injury-plagued and rapidly declining team to 58 wins in his last season, then a stunning upset of the 63-19 Blazers, before finally succumbing to the rising Bulls dynasty.

Then, after Magic retired...LA went 43-39 and then 39-43...or basically about where Magic found them floundering when he arrived in '79-80.


Magic did FAR more for Kareem's resume than the other way around. Not even close.

[k0kakw0rld]

Know how I know you are a troll? You think the regular season holds more weight than the playoffs.

:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll: :roll: :roll:
I'm simply saying MVP >>>>> FMVP because it takes 82 games to crown the MVP and only a 7 game series to crown a FMVP.

I'm not trolling at all.

[dunksby]

I'm simply saying MVP >>>>> FMVP because it takes 82 games to crown the MVP and only a 7 game series to crown a FMVP.

I'm not trolling at all.
Billups and Tony Parker>>>>>>>CP, Westbrook, Stockton etc.

[k0kakw0rld]

Billups and Tony Parker>>>>>>>CP, Westbrook, Stockton etc.
I don't get it tho!

I clearly said MVP >>> FMVP (It takes only a 7 game series to be crowned FMVP)

CP, Westbrook, Stockton all 3 never won MVP, What exactly is your point here?
:confusedshrug:

And I will take Billups over CP and Westbrook, all day. Why?

CP chokes, Westbrook bricks and is a terrible decision maker. :cheers:

[TheBigVeto]

Kareem without Magic (5 MVPs, 1 title) - Greatest of all time

Bill Russell without Cousy (1 MVP, 5 titles) - Greatest Winner

MJ falls to the #3 spot.

Can't deny facts. I dont give a fvck about ESPN/NIKE. They been brainwashing you fools with them Space Jam and I believe I can fly sh!t.

Talking about easy path to the finals, how about the bulls 1998 run? :confusedshrug:

MJ lost 3 times in the first round in one of the weakest era ever.

Had a losing record three times and still made the playoffs
(38-44) lost 1-3 vs Milwaukee
(30-52) then 0-3 vs Bird
(40-42) and swept again by Bird and the Celtics

:applause:

I'm ready to expose this n!gga like an art gallery.

That era is not the weakest, otherwise your arguments are quite valid. Any of those 3 players are the only legit candidates to be GOAT.