Convince me Lebron doesn't belong in the top ten.

[Springsteen]

:confusedshrug:

[Relinquish]

But... but... all he does is statpad! :mad: :mad:


:oldlol:

[tmacattack33]

Lebron will be consensus top 10 in a few days when Cleveland reaches the ECF.

He'll be gunning for top 5 over the next few years, if he stays healthy...which it seems like he will because he's been basically the only star player over the last five years not to have a major injury.

[jimmy77x]

He is top ten already and probably going to be top 5 when its all said and done, but he will never in a million years be GOAT. His sorry ass loser groupies are just going to have to deal with those facts.

[Springsteen]

He is top ten already and probably going to be top 5 when its all said and done, but he will never in a million years be GOAT. His sorry ass loser groupies are just going to have to deal with those facts.

I honestly think even Dubeta and the rest of those alts dont't actually believe Lebron is better than Jordan, they're just lying to themselves :lol

[SexSymbol]

He's had a career filled with disappointing chokes while playing in the shitty east his whole life.
He bailed on his team two times to go to a team with superfriends.
He took the easiest way possible to play and still is 2/5 in the finals, soon to be 2/6, making him one of the biggest underachievers of all time in the game of basketball.
Hakeem went through hell to obtain his only two rings and didn't bail on the Rockets when times were hard
Kobe stayed faithful to the Lakers and won 5 rings while giving us some of the best individual performances ever
Shaq is one the MDE players ever
Bird has more rings and is a better all-around player.
Duncan has 5 rings and beat LeBron's ass in finals two times to one.
Anybody you can think of that hovering around the 10th spot in most people's lists have a better case over Bron, than Bron has over them

[kennethgriffin]

2 for 6... that was easy

[BigBoss]

2 for 6.

This board will be run by Lebron haters in 2 weeks :roll:

[kennethgriffin]

russell 11 for 12
jordan 6 for 6
Kareem 6 for 10
kobe 5 for 7
Magic 5 for 9
duncan 4.5 for 5.5
Shaq 4 for 6
bird 3 for 5
hakeem 2 for 3
wilt 2 for 5
lebron 1.5 for 5.5

[Springsteen]

So the three posters above me would give Hakeem the nod over Lebron?

[imnew09]

You will see it yourself after this years Final

[kennethgriffin]

So the three posters above me would give Hakeem the nod over Lebron?


2 for 3 vs 2 for 6

no ring chases vs ring chasing
no lockouts vs lockout
winning finals% vs losing finals%
better era vs worst era
no free trip to the finals vs free pass every year
no championship saving shot vs ray allen




who cares if lebron has more espn awards

[LBJ 23]

2-5
LeEast
2 superstars
Stacked teams
Hairline
Not 1..2..3..4..
Elbow
Beta
Father Delonte
HGH
Stern
Refs
Small Dick
.......

[ArbitraryWater]

He's had a career filled with disappointing chokes while playing in the shitty east his whole life.
He bailed on his team two times to go to a team with superfriends.
He took the easiest way possible to play and still is 2/5 in the finals, soon to be 2/6, making him one of the biggest underachievers of all time in the game of basketball.
Hakeem went through hell to obtain his only two rings and didn't bail on the Rockets when times were hard
Kobe stayed faithful to the Lakers and won 5 rings while giving us some of the best individual performances ever
Shaq is one the MDE players ever
Bird has more rings and is a better all-around player.
Duncan has 5 rings and beat LeBron's ass in finals two times to one.
Anybody you can think of that hovering around the 10th spot in most people's lists have a better case over Bron, than Bron has over them

I know you said the Hawks and Bulls are better teams than the Cavs WITH Kyrie/Love, now they're out and Bron is still sweeping these dudes.. surely you admit this making LeBron one of the biggest overachievers ever :confusedshrug:

anyway, most here is just opinionated bs.

[kennethgriffin]

2-6
LeEast
2 superstars
Stacked teams
Hairline
Not 1..2..3..4..
Elbow
Beta
Father Delonte
HGH
Stern
Refs
Small Dick
.......


fixed

[SexSymbol]

I know you said the Hawks and Bulls are better teams than the Cavs WITH Kyrie/Love, now they're out and Bron is still sweeping these dudes.. surely you admit this making LeBron one of the biggest overachievers ever :confusedshrug:

anyway, most here is just opinionated bs.
Bulls were missing their best player and Hawks are banged up just as much

[tpols]

i like how 2 for 6 sounds

but in reality its 1.5 for 5.5

lockout*

I think 2 for 5 sounds better than both..:D just has a ring to it

[SexSymbol]

So the three posters above me would give Hakeem the nod over Lebron?
Yes, he's better as a player, especially defensively and he had to go through hell to win his two championships.

[ArbitraryWater]

Bulls were missing their best player and Hawks are banged up just as much

Gasol missed 2 games :oldlol:

Hawks missed Korver for ONE game :oldlol:

Lies, easy to expose.

[kennethgriffin]

if theres an nba draft tomorrow... hakeem gets selected above lebron..

dream in lebrons place on the heat and this years cavs would have 5 titles in 5 years

[tpols]

Gasol missed 2 games :oldlol:

Hawks missed Korver for ONE game :oldlol:

Lies, easy to expose.

Korvers out the rest of the series.. 1.5 games so far with another to go. So did you just expose yourself?

[Rooster]

So the three posters above me would give Hakeem the nod over Lebron?

I still put Hakeem over Lebron now but maybe they will trade places when Lebron hang it up. Hakeem had to deal with loaded teams in his prime. Lebron loaded his team for his 2 rings.

[Springsteen]

offtopic but I always liked this song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsW8rXPcnM0

[SexSymbol]

Gasol missed 2 games :oldlol:

Hawks missed Korver for ONE game :oldlol:

Lies, easy to expose.
The primary defender of Bron, Carrol is injured, Horford's banged up as always. Three of the four main guys in this series are either not playing or banged the frick up.

Gasol played only one game at full strength, he posted like 20/10 and Bulls clearly won that game. The main reason Bulls lost control of the series is that they would go through scoring droughts, which in the regular season was countered by Gasol's 1x1 play as he's so good at it.
Bulls were literally without the main weapon and the best player.

[3peated]

lebron is already a top 10 player i dont care if he doesnt play another nba game.

[Straight_Ballin]

lebron is already a top 10 player i dont care if he doesnt play another nba game.

Yet he has no case over any of those in the top 10..... wonderful.

[SexSymbol]

lebron is already a top 10 player i dont care if he doesnt play another nba game.
Russell
Kareem
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Duncan
Hakeem
Kobe
Shaq
Wilt
He has no case over any of these guys really

[Magic 32]

No player in NBA history has ever tried more actively to put himself in favourable and non-competitive situation than Lebron, while still needing all the luck in the world to avoid Jerry West-like failure rate in the playoffs.

Top 12 for sure though.

[illmaticone]

Russell
Kareem
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Duncan
Hakeem
Kobe
Shaq
Wilt
He has no case over any of these guys really

You're missing Bill Russell, but yes I agree. LeBron probably sits at #11 currently, winning a ring against GSW this year he will definitely have a case for #8-10.

EDIT: my bad yo had Russell at the top

[Springsteen]

Russell
Kareem
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Duncan
Hakeem
Kobe
Shaq
Wilt
He has no case over any of these guys really

I think he has a case over Hakeem, honestly. His career is far from over, so who know what he'll have achieved when he's finally said and done.

[sdot_thadon]

Can't make one, he's already been in the top 10 for a few years now. Anyone saying he isn't is, well.....you know.:oldlol:

[illmaticone]

I think he has a case over Hakeem, honestly. His career is far from over, so who know what he'll have achieved when he's finally said and done.

Oh yeah, my ranking is based on right now. I do not think he has a case over Hakeem as of right now. Hakeem won 2 championships (1 of them is the GOAT playoff run), and had a very long successful career. He had a relatively weak supporting cast against great competition, and even took a team and won 2 games (I believe) vs. the GOAT team ('86 Celtics).

[sbw19]

None of the top-10 colluded in their prime. However, if he wins this year he has a case for top-10 over Hakeem, possibly Kobe.

[sdot_thadon]

None of the top-10 colluded in their prime. However, if he wins this year he has a case for top-10 over Hakeem, possibly Kobe.
By colluded, do you mean play for a good-great team?

[Dbrog]

He definitely seems to be a modern day wilt when it comes to accolades. Wilt holds all the all-time records, Bron holds all the youngest-to-reach records. About the same success in the playoffs as well. That said, I do think he's top10. He's better than Hakeem IMO career-wise but not as good as Kobe. If anything, he actually makes me begin to question Wilt's legacy. Then again, he had Russell blocking him at every turn.

[TripleA]

You dummies are so stupid Kobe is terrible compared to the rest of the top ten Lebron is better at every measure of greatness except ring. Larry bird only played 13 years while Lebron is going to play until 18 years, and Olajuwon did not do shit until jordan left.

[SexSymbol]

You're missing Bill Russell, but yes I agree. LeBron probably sits at #11 currently, winning a ring against GSW this year he will definitely have a case for #8-10.

EDIT: my bad yo had Russell at the top
If he wins this year, he's definitely in the range you've mentioned and cements himself as a player who can overcome adversity, something he hasn't been able to show so far.
I wouldn't miss Russell, I consider him the runaway GOAT

[JZ600]

He is definitely top 10 atm, possibly top 5 when its all said and done

Anybody who thinks otherwise are retarded or delusional haters

[TripleA]

He definitely seems to be a modern day wilt when it comes to accolades. Wilt holds all the all-time records, Bron holds all the youngest-to-reach records. About the same success in the playoffs as well. That said, I do think he's top10. He's better than Hakeem IMO career-wise but not as good as Kobe. If anything, he actually makes me begin to question Wilt's legacy. Then again, he had Russell blocking him at every turn.

Kobe does not belong in top 10 he plays by far the worst defense and worst player.

[SexSymbol]

You dummies are so stupid Kobe is terrible compared to the rest of the top ten Lebron is better at every measure of greatness except ring. Larry bird only played 13 years while Lebron is going to play until 18 years, and Olajuwon did not do shit until jordan left.
ugh.

[SexSymbol]

He is definitely top 10 atm, possibly top 5 when its all said and done

Anybody who thinks otherwise are retarded or delusional haters
lol, who are these new fellas that don't respect the history of basketball one bit?? You should go out of here and forget basketball.

[Mr Feeny]

lol, who are these new fellas that don't respect the history of basketball one bit?? You should go out of here and forget basketball. Tbf kobe is not top 10:applause:

[TripleA]

ugh.

Oscar Robertson, jerry west and Moses Malone are Better Kobe clown

[Mr Feeny]

Oscar Robertson, jerry west and Moses Malone are Better Kobe clown

I like you:cheers: :applause:

[sbw19]

By colluded, do you mean play for a good-great team?Nope, akin to Duncan joining the Lakers to play alongside Shaq and Kobe cuz he couldn't win in SA. No way Duncan'd be considered top-10 had he won multiple titles going that route. LeBron still needs to validate himself, esp to his Cavs supporters (not bandwagoners.)

[TripleA]

He needs to validate nothing he is better than Kobe at the game of basketball.

[Mr Feeny]

Nope, akin to Duncan joining the Lakers to play alongside Shaq and Kobe cuz he couldn't win in SA. No way Duncan'd be considered top-10 had he won multiple titles going that route. LeBron still needs to validate himself, esp to his Cavs supporters (not bandwagoners.)

or kobe forcing his way to L.A. from Charlotte :lebronamazed:

[TripleA]

or kobe forcing his way to L.A. from Charlotte :lebronamazed:
Mr feeny and triple A be destroying these fools with these facts.:rockon: :cheers:

[Rooster]

or kobe forcing his way to L.A. from Charlotte :lebronamazed:

:facepalm :facepalm Charlotte indirect drafted Kobe.

[Mr Feeny]

:facepalm :facepalm Charlotte indirect drafted Kobe.

Exactly :lebronamazed:

[TripleA]

What would happen if Kobe played for Charlotte instead of the Lakers no rings, 0/0, just another Tracy mcgrady.:oldlol:

[SexSymbol]

this is a terrible level of trolling, it's not funny nor amusing, I'd suggest you'd stop, but what better do you have to do in life...

[JZ600]

lol, who are these new fellas that don't respect the history of basketball one bit?? You should go out of here and forget basketball.
^ way too many retarded trolls here
Saying lebron is top 10 is like saying mj is goat
Its really not that hard kid

[24-Inch_Chrome]

He's top-10 caliber. Lower end of the list but he makes it on at 10 for me.

[sbw19]

or kobe forcing his way to L.A. from CharlotteKobe's detractors quipped for years he couldn't win without Shaq, he shut them up by winning two titles for the team he considers home. LeBron is in a similar position now, and he has a chance to prove the doubters wrong.

[TripleA]

Robertson,West, Moses and Charles Barkley are better than Kobe deal with it.

[Hey Yo]

i like how 2 for 6 sounds

but in reality its 1.5 for 5.5

lockout*
Lockout was a 66 game season.

Kobe only played in 66 of 82 games in 2000. I guess that means *title (plus missing 2 Finals games)

68 games in 2001...that's also *title.

so he still remains at 2/3 as captain / 1st option and 1/4 as 2nd banana.

[ISHGoat]

Robertson,West, Moses and Charles Barkley are better than Kobe deal with it.

maybe from an impact on the game POV, but definitely not from an accomplishments/achievements one.

[ISHGoat]

Lockout was a 66 game season.

Kobe only played in 66 of 82 games in 2000. I guess that means *title (plus missing 2 Finals games)

68 games in 2001...that's also *title.

so he still remains at 2/3 as captain / 1st option and 1/4 as 2nd banana.

kenneth is arguably the worst user on this forum, he brings nothing positive.

do not entertain his silly arguments

[Rooster]

Exactly :lebronamazed:

:facepalm :facepalm .

[TripleA]

maybe from an impact on the game POV, but definitely not from an accomplishments/achievements one.

That's what I'm saying these players impacted the game at much higher level than Kobe that it overrides the accomplishments he gained being carried in the finals.

[SexSymbol]

That's what I'm saying these players impacted the game at much higher level than Kobe that it overrides the accomplishments he gained being carried in the finals.
:facepalm :facepalm

[TripleA]

Kobe is not that good can you get through thick skull.

[ISHGoat]

That's what I'm saying these players impacted the game at much higher level than Kobe that it overrides the accomplishments he gained being carried in the finals.

thats a fair opinion, but kobe still pulled his own weight in his 09/10 title runs. gasol was obviously huge, but it was a 1a/1b relationship, similar to shaq and kobe in 01, and only 01. in 00 and 02, kobe's impact in the playoffs was significantly less than his impact in 01, and roughly 1/3 of lebrons impact in 12, 13.

[3ball]

The regulatory environment of Lebron's era benefits his position (perimeter ballhandler) more than the regulatory environment of any other era



Agreed, it's a fact - the NBA officially stated that the rule changes worked AS PLANNED to increase penetration - this is not subjective opinion, similar to how Bill Gates vision for Microsoft was never considered subjective opinion:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html


NBA.COM: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

NBA: Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.


NBA.COM: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

NBA: It doesn't. With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim.


NBA.COM: From an Xs and Os perspective, how have coaches adjusted to a more wide-open game? What have they done differently?

NBA: Coaches have utilized more space on the floor so to create more room for dribble penetration, two-man pick-and-roll basketball and dribble exchanges on the perimeter.


NBA.COM: When you watch the game today, does it closely resemble an international game or are there still distinct differences in the style of play?

NBA: Our game does more closely resemble an international game in terms of the style of play than it used to. However, there are distinct differences in the international game vs. the NBA game. The international game utilizes a pure zone defense (as opposed to the defensive three-second rule), which allows frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration.
.

[Springsteen]

^ jesus christ

[TripleA]

Agreed - the NBA stated themselves that the rule changes worked AS PLANNED to increase penetration - this is not subjective opinion, similar to how Bill Gates vision for Microsoft was never considered subjective opinion:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html


NBA.COM: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

STU JACKSON: Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.


NBA.COM: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

STU JACKSON: It doesn't. With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim.


NBA.COM: From an Xs and Os perspective, how have coaches adjusted to a more wide-open game? What have they done differently?

STU JACKSON: Coaches have utilized more space on the floor so to create more room for dribble penetration, two-man pick-and-roll basketball and dribble exchanges on the perimeter.


NBA.COM: When you watch the game today, does it closely resemble an international game or are there still distinct differences in the style of play?

STU JACKSON: Our game does more closely resemble an international game in terms of the style of play than it used to. However, there are distinct differences in the international game vs. the NBA game. The international game utilizes a pure zone defense (as opposed to the defensive three-second rule), which allows frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration.


We get 3brick jordan goat yadayada but how you call out Kobe being benefited with dribble penetration when he had his crazy scoring numbers.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

3ball has become one of the worst posters here. It's a shame because he actually does know his shit for the most part, he just prefers to spam the same copy+pasted posts into every ****ing thread he enters.

[Springsteen]

3ball, a quick question. Lebron has played literally all of his career in this rule-changed era, meaning he adapted to the playstyle of it.

Who's to say him, or basically any other player of this era (Curry, Durant, etc.) couldn't adapt to the playstyle of pre rule-change (handcheck) NBA and shine there?

[G0ATbe]

Explain how this is top 10 worthy.

http://oi57.tinypic.com/15d8mcx.jpg

[Spurs5Rings2014]

russell 11 for 12
jordan 6 for 6
Kareem 6 for 10
kobe 5 for 7
Magic 5 for 9
duncan 4.5 for 5.5
Shaq 4 for 6
bird 3 for 5
hakeem 2 for 3
wilt 2 for 5
lebron 1.5 for 5.5


Lockout was a 66 game season.

Kobe only played in 66 of 82 games in 2000. I guess that means *title (plus missing 2 Finals games)

68 games in 2001...that's also *title.

so he still remains at 2/3 as captain / 1st option and 1/4 as 2nd banana.

Updated list:

russell 11 for 12
jordan 6 for 6
Kareem 6 for 10
duncan 5 for 6
Magic 5 for 9
Shaq 4 for 6
bird 3 for 5
kobe 3 for 7
hakeem 2 for 3
wilt 2 for 5
lebron 2 for 5

[3ball]

We get 3brick jordan goat yadayada but how you call out Kobe being benefited with dribble penetration when he had his crazy scoring numbers.


Lebron's prime coincides with offensive strategy and rule changes that make it easier for all offensive players compared to previous eras.. Specifically, today's 3-point shooting and spacing strategy enables less defenders on the strongside because weakside floor-spreaders draw them away.

This contrasts with Kobe's era (early 2000's) and prior, where weakside floor-spreaders didn't exist to lure defenders away from the strongside - defenders remained on strongside, so Kobe faced more defenders on the strongside than Lebron currently faces, usually all 5 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21).. Otoh, Lebron faces strongsides that only have1 or 2 defenders (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377327).. It's night and day different.

Of course, Kobe played 7 seasons WITH hand-checking and legal paint-camping and did exceedingly well, while LeBron only played 1 and shot 47% TS... Infact, Lebron entered the league during the worst era of all time - that's the only way to describe an NBA that literally couldn't beat Euroleague (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373182).. The USA's skills and brand of basketball was so far inferior at that time, that it more than offset their GOAT talent advantage.

[Springsteen]

Explain how this is top 10 worthy.

http://oi57.tinypic.com/15d8mcx.jpg

Did you make that? :lol

[Sarcastic]

http://i.imgur.com/LbWl7lq.jpg

[3ball]

3ball, a quick question. Lebron has played literally all of his career in this rule-changed era, meaning he adapted to the playstyle of it.

Who's to say him, or basically any other player of this era (Curry, Durant, etc.) couldn't adapt to the playstyle of pre rule-change (handcheck) NBA and shine there?


http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e026bdb37635f1d39f79bf0ad068f961.gif


Different skills are needed to conquer no spacing and paint-camping..

Without spacing or defensive 3 seconds to clear the lane, wing players like MJ could NOT get in the lane whenever they wanted - with the defense not guarding the 3-point line and allowed to paint-camp, the paint was often too crowded, FORCING players to settle for mid-range jumpshots (see MJ in GIF above) - virtually ALL great scorers in previous eras were great mid-range shooters.

We actually have data on MJ's mid-range shooting from the 1997 and 1998 seasons - he shot over 50%..

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Compare that to LeBron this year - 35%... In no-spacing environments, it's impossible to be a GREAT scorer while shooting like that because the layups aren't there like they are with spacing.. :confusedshrug:.. I think Lebron would still average 20-25 PPG with solid all-round numbers - i.e. 6 APG in playoffs, just like today, and probably less rebounds and far lower paint efficiency due to the bigger front lines and more congested paints - the league WAS actually materially taller in the 80's:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_league_average_height,_weight,_age_and_playing _experience.
.

[kennethgriffin]

Updated list:

russell 11 for 12
jordan 6 for 6
Kareem 6 for 10
duncan 5 for 6
Magic 5 for 9
Shaq 4 for 6
bird 3 for 5
kobe 3 for 7
hakeem 2 for 3
wilt 2 for 5
lebron 2 for 5

Did you just impliment an asterisk for multiple perceived lockout equivalents but not give an asterisk for 2 factual lockouts


And what makes lockouts bullshit is the condensed schedule that messes with injuries

That and a lack of practice/training camp

[Lebron23]

He's currently a top 7-8 player of all time. If he wins an NBA title next June. He enters the top 5.

[SexSymbol]

He's currently a top 7-8 player of all time. If he wins an NBA title next June. He enters the top 5.
:roll: :roll:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

He's currently a top 7-8 player of all time. If he wins an NBA title next June. He enters the top 5.

:whatever:

Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Duncan, Magic. How does one ring bump any of those guys, let alone two of them?

[Ne 1]

Did you just impliment an asterisk for multiple perceived lockout equivalents but not give an asterisk for 2 factual lockouts


And what makes lockouts bullshit is the condensed schedule that messes with injuries

That and a lack of practice/training camp

This. Teams build their rosters for 82 games seasons, then all of the sudden you have a year with a shortened season and it changes which teams stand to benefit. If all teams played lesser games every year in but in a more cramped schedule it would change how teams built their rosters. But obviously it would still be fair because it would be what all teams prepared for.

[Doranku]

http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e026bdb37635f1d39f79bf0ad068f961.gif



http://payload.cargocollective.com/1/1/62982/1396131/Primeval%20duncans%20wall%201%20copy.JPG

In 20 years, this is what 3ball's room is going to look like except instead of newspaper clippings and pictures, there's going to be hundreds of Jordan gifs projected across his walls.

[kshutts1]

I already have Lebron firmly in the 9-13 range.

However, if I wanted to name some players, I have the following players as better than Lebron..
Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Shaq
Oscar
Magic
Bird

That's 8.
Then a case can be made for Hakeem, Duncan, KG, Kobe.
Then a potentially lesser case for someone like Moses.

Lebron is not clearly in the top 10... but neither is he clearly out of it.

[PickernRoller]

:facepalm 2*/6.

[SouBeachTalents]

Nope, akin to Duncan joining the Lakers to play alongside Shaq and Kobe cuz he couldn't win in SA. No way Duncan'd be considered top-10 had he won multiple titles going that route. LeBron still needs to validate himself, esp to his Cavs supporters (not bandwagoners.)

Lmfao, yeah, cause Bosh is on the same level as peak Shaq. When people make asinine comparisons like this, do they realize Bosh has made one All-NBA team (8 years ago) and has won 3 playoff games without LeBron his entire career? No, but we'll compare him to the likes of Shaq :facepalm

[dubeta]

There's no way players 1-9 are all ahead of him

[Spurs5Rings2014]

a case can be made for Hakeem, Duncan, KG, Kobe.


http://media1.giphy.com/media/gLrWjmW6XljZC/giphy.gif

[sbw19]

Lmfao, yeah, cause Bosh is on the same level as peak Shaq. When people make asinine comparisons like this, do they realize Bosh has made one All-NBA team (8 years ago) and has won 3 playoff games without LeBron his entire career? No, but we'll compare him to the likes of ShaqIt's not about who's better or who's on whose level. Duncan was a top-3 player at the time, the early 00's, at times the best. Shaq, ditto. Best or 2nd best. Kobe was the perennial allstar.

LeBron and Wade at the time they colluded were considered top3, at worst top 5. Similar to what Shaq/Duncan had been. Bosh was the perennial all-star just like Kobe. Has little to do with whether LeBron is on Shaq's level or Bosh on Kobe's level. It's a moot point, of course Shaq/Duncan/Kobe were better than their Heatles counterparts.

It's about Duncan's alltime ranking had he joined his Laker rivals because he wanted to win titles. He would not have been considered by most as top-10, even if he had the potential and talent to be.

[SexSymbol]

It's not about who's better or who's on whose level. Duncan was a top-3 player at the time, the early 00's, at times the best. Shaq, ditto. Best or 2nd best. Kobe was the perennial allstar.

LeBron and Wade at the time they colluded were considered top3, at worst top 5. Similar to what Shaq/Duncan had been. Bosh was the perennial all-star just like Kobe. Has little to do with whether LeBron is on Shaq's level or Bosh on Kobe's level. It's a moot point, of course Shaq/Duncan/Kobe were better than their Heatles counterparts.

It's about Duncan's alltime ranking had he joined his Laker rivals because he wanted to win titles. He would not have been considered by most as top-10, even if he had the potential and talent to be.
did you just compare Kobe and Bosh as similar level players?
You do realize he's considered by many the greatest player of his generation?

[ArbitraryWater]

top 5

[sbw19]

did you just compare Kobe and Bosh as similar level players?
You do realize he's considered by many the greatest player of his generation?Read my post again, I'm not comparing players directly, just what they were at a certain point in time.

[Springsteen]

http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e026bdb37635f1d39f79bf0ad068f961.gif


Different skills are needed to conquer no spacing and paint-camping..

Without spacing or defensive 3 seconds to clear the lane, wing players like MJ could NOT get in the lane whenever they wanted - with the defense not guarding the 3-point line and allowed to paint-camp, the paint was often too crowded, FORCING players to settle for mid-range jumpshots (see MJ in GIF above) - virtually ALL great scorers in previous eras were great mid-range shooters.

We actually have data on MJ's mid-range shooting from the 1997 and 1998 seasons - he shot over 50%..

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Compare that to LeBron this year - 35%... In no-spacing environments, it's impossible to be a GREAT scorer while shooting like that because the layups aren't there like they are with spacing.. :confusedshrug:.. I think Lebron would still average 20-25 PPG with solid all-round numbers - i.e. 6 APG in playoffs, just like today, and probably less rebounds and far lower paint efficiency due to the bigger front lines and more congested paints - the league WAS actually materially taller in the 80's:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_league_average_height,_weight,_age_and_playing _experience.
.

I actually took the time to read and digest this, and I have to say I agree with you on the point of Jordan being able to score more on midrange in era where paintcamping/non-defensive 3 seconds was allowed compared to someone like Lebron who shoots well below the efficiency of Jordan from midrange at a younger age in an arguably weaker defensive era.

But your whole argument basically boils down to Jordan playing better than Lebron, which I, or likely anyone who knows even the smallest amount of basketball could tell you.

Just because you have plenty of evidence showing why Jordan is superior doesn't somehow convince me Lebron doesn't somehow belong in the top 10 by the time his career is done.

[ILLsmak]

He absolutely does.

He is like the other players in the top ten, all unique players who can do something no one else can in a way that basically wins you 50 games.

I always get on here and tell people LeBron is overrated (cuz he is), but we all know, or should know, that he is a monster. He is the greatest at what he does. His drive and kick game is insane.

It's really strange that people don't say "Let Bron score 50 and stop leaving shooters open." Never happens. Bron gets shooters wide open always. Generally... like 80% of the time making a great pass that allows them to shoot a high percentage.

The fact that he can bring the ball up, be a threat to score, and get people easy shots means that he is a top ten player of all time.

I'm a big Shaq fan, and I saw what Shaq did for the league. I can't put Bron over Shaq, I know... but whatever. I can put him over Kobe because of his talent. I could put him over TD if TD didn't have that resume. TD is just that silent assassin. He is like the new Bill Russell, who just wins. His wins and longevity have him over Bron right now.

Bron can overtake Shaq and TD. To get to 7? I think. Can he overtake Magic, I don't think so. Even if Bron is a better talent. I think in terms of talent he's up there with anyone. But there is another measure. There's scrub team to 50 wins and then there's 50 wins to championship. Magic shits all over Bron in the second part. That's where Bron would fall behind. Still... top 10 easy.

-Smak

[warriorfan]

massive collusion every year and he still goes 2-6


not better than hakeem


keep trying

[TylerOO]

he teamed up with bosh and wade!!!

[24-Inch_Chrome]

massive collusion every year and he still goes 2-6


not better than hakeem


keep trying

Damn, he colluded for twelve seasons? :eek:

Shame on him, should've waited for Cleveland to continue to not bring him any kind of substantial help.

[Springsteen]

he teamed up with bosh and wade!!!

What does that have to do with anything?

[Alamо]

top 5


Currently?

[Rooster]

massive collusion every year and he still goes 2-6


not better than hakeem


keep trying

:applause: Hakeem has to deal with those big market teams loaded with talent. Lebron won his rings with that loaded team. Greater risk and greater accomplishment goes to Hakeem.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

I could put him over TD if TD didn't have that resume. TD is just that silent assassin. He is like the new Bill Russell, who just wins. His wins and longevity have him over Bron right now.

Bron can overtake Shaq and TD. To get to 7? I think. Can he overtake Magic, I don't think so. Even if Bron is a better talent. I think in terms of talent he's up there with anyone. But there is another measure. There's scrub team to 50 wins and then there's 50 wins to championship. Magic shits all over Bron in the second part. That's where Bron would fall behind. Still... top 10 easy.

-Smak

:facepalm

Comparing Tim Duncan to Bill Russell is one of the most asinine things I've seen on this forum. Bill Russell should be compared to players like Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman. Guys who aren't great scorers, but play great defense and are great rebounders. Duncan, on the other hand, is one of the greatest 2-way players of ALL TIME. In his prime, he was dueling and going blow for blow offensively with guys like Shaq, Dirk, KG, etc. It's completely ridiculous to just downgrade a GOAT 2-way player like Duncan to a GOAT 1-way player like Russell because they are both GOAT tier winners. One contributed a lot more to his team than just defense and carried the offensive load as well as defensive many times for those chips. There's no comparison. Duncan should be compared to a guy like Kareem more-so than Russell.

I hate to sound like a broken record here again, but the Magic/Kareem circle jerk is tiring to say the least. Them two, along with Shaq and Kobe, are the ONLY players to play with another top 10 all time. I think they get far too much credit for having another GOAT level player at their position to lean on and split the load with. There is no doubt in anyone's mind if you take Kareem or Magic off those Laker teams they don't win nearly as much in an era with the Bird Celtics, the Moses 6'ers, the Thomas Pistons, etc. Same with Shaq and Kobe. Take even Kobe off those Laker teams and Shaq wins maybe 1 ring, IF that. And I don't wanna hear anything about they would just have other talent equal to that because Magic and Kobe were rookies when they hooked up and weren't getting paid like that. They just lucked out and now all their stans can overrate them because they were so fortunate enough to play together.

And that's why I have to put Duncan right up there in that top 5 spot. His teams just weren't as stacked as most of the others. Robinson had regressed and was coming off a major injury right after Duncan came along and was an old shell by the time Parker and Manu came along. Then he had to wait until they reached their prime, which didn't coincide with his own so by the time Parker was decent, Duncan was now over the hill. Parker and Manu also just didn't perform consistently like you could expect from another top 10. They both had lapses and horrible performances that costed Duncan many chips ('06, '13, '14, etc). You didn't see that as much from those other guys. There was less room for error with them and you also have to take into account that Duncan had to go through those Shaq/Kobe Lakers to win his first 8 seasons and that also coincided with his prime. Him and Bird are very similar in that regard and explains why neither were ever able to repeat having to face a team with two top 10's every year. Also like Bird, the older better of the two was considered the best player in the league before him and then he was until the young gun surpassed him due to injuries/age. Very small window to rack up chips with such an unfair advantage for he competition.

:coleman:

[turret]

as david Letterman and his classic top 10 have retired

Maybe it's time to retire the top 10 all-time nba
What did the top 10 of NBA look like in the 70's
KAJ, Russell, maybe Wilt only remain in most current top 10s of the past.
Where's the big O,Cousy,West ? Farther down the list.
Die hard fans of that era was rattling there names off the way Jordan gets spouted now.

Will Bird always remain an instant name ( I say yes :bowdown: )

#11 would be an amazing feat in 20 years.

Chill out and enjoy one of the best player this generation has seen.
Alpha ? beta ?
There is only one alpha/beta goat

https://spiritofthething.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/revenge-of-the-nerds-ogre.jpg

[ILLsmak]

:facepalm

Comparing Tim Duncan to Bill Russell is one of the most asinine things I've seen on this forum. Bill Russell should be compared to players like Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman.

For the first time in my life, I am exercising my right to not read further beyond this point.

-Smak

[knicksman]

it depends if youre a low standard beta. Most betas value individual accolades to rings. But for alphas, we take the hardest to get which is rings. And 2/6 isnt getting it done esp while colluding.

[TheBigVeto]

This made sense.


I hate to sound like a broken record here again, but the Magic/Kareem circle jerk is tiring to say the least.


This doesn't.

Bill Russell should be compared to players like Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman.