1994 Bulls vs. 2015 Grizzlies

[3ball]

Both teams won 55 games and were eliminated in 2nd round.. But at the respective rosters, the Griz have way more talent:

Gasol > Pippen (DPOY superior defensive impact, equal offense)
Zach > Horace
Conley > Kukocs

Plus Tony Allen, Jeff Green, Vince Carter, Tayshaun Prince, Courtney Lee > Kerr, Wennington, etc.. MJ wouldn't need to average 30 PPG on the Griz to go 6/6.. But I'm sure he'd still get 5 MVP's and 6 FMVPs.

The fact that MJ could go 6/6 with such little comparative talent shows how much synergies his playing style realized with teammates... This is what happens when the GOAT scorer is an off-ball, highly ASSISTED player, which opens up playmaking/assist opportunities for teammates.. A high volume, highly-assisted style contrasts heavily with a lower-assisted, PG scoring style, which robs teammates of playmaking/assist opportunities, thus realizing less synergies and team results.
.

[DonDadda59]

Gasol > Pippen


Yeezus :facepalm

[aj1987]

Yeezus :facepalm
:roll: :roll:


OP, 29 > 17.

[LeBird]

I think 3ball is officially the dumbest poster on the Internet.

[3ball]

Yeezus :facepalm
Regardless of whether you agree about Gasol and Pippen, the Grizzlies roster was far more talented than the 1994 Bulls.

But I suppose you think Horace is better than Randolph.. or Tony Allen, Jeff Green, Vince Carter, Tayshaun Prince, Courtney Lee > Kerr, Wennington, etc.

If that's the case, than Yeezus

The fact that MJ could go 6/6 with such little comparative talent shows how much synergies his playing style realized with teammates... This is what happens when the GOAT scorer is an off-ball, highly ASSISTED player, which opens up playmaking/assist opportunities for teammates.. A high volume, highly-assisted style contrasts heavily with a lower-assisted, PG scoring style, which robs teammates of playmaking/assist opportunities, thus realizing less synergies and team results.

[DonDadda59]

Regardless of whether you agree about Gasol and Pippen, the Grizzlies roster was FAR more talented than the 1994 Bulls it's not close.

So by your estimation, a FAR less talented Bulls team was able to win 55 games and make the second round because...

[3ball]

.
I think 3ball is officially the dumbest poster on the Internet.
I'm assuming you agree that Marc Gasol, Zach Randolph, Mike Conley, Tony Allen, Jeff Green, Vince Carter, Tayshaun Prince, Courtney Lee > Pippen, Horace, Kukocs and a bunch of nobodies.

Otherwise, you're the dumb one.

[kshutts1]

Something can be said for chemistry, team makeup, shooting ability, etc, as well as superstar potential.

[aj1987]

So by your estimation, a FAR less talented Bulls team was able to win 55 games and make the second round because...
They played in a weak ass era. Come on, Don. :oldlol:

[KG215]

Gasol > Pippen?

:oldlol:

[3ball]

So by your estimation, a FAR less talented Bulls team was able to win 55 games and make the second round because...

Since 1980, about 300 teams have made the 2nd round.. You don't need a talented team to do that.. So you should've stopped your post at the 55 wins part.. Adding the "2nd round" part detracted from your effort.

And 55 regular season wins is possible due to superior strategy coupled with a team that had superior focus, determination and know-how than the rest of the league.. This offsets their talent deficit to the Grizzlies.

But it's obvious that you're avoiding comparing the actual rosters - you just want to look at the surface 55 wins.. In that case, if we're just looking at the surface, then 6/6, let's all go home... But that's not what I'm doing - I'm showing other reasons why MJ's GOAT, like showing the 1994 Bulls had less talent than the 2015 Griz... But you're acting like such substance is garbage, and instead want to focus on the surface - 55 wins... In that case, 6/6... Forget the substance.
.

[kshutts1]

What team had a more TALENTED roster...

2015 Clips or 2015 Rockets?

2011 Heat or 2011 Mavericks?

2014 Thunder or 2014 anyone else?

Talent is not the end-all, be-all. Even IF Memphis had the better relative roster, a lot can be said for chemistry, makeup, style, superstar factor, etc.

[DonDadda59]

Since 1980, about 300 teams have made the 2nd round.. You don't need a talented team to do that..

Uh... yes you do. :oldlol:


And 55 regular season wins is possible due to superior strategy coupled with a team that had superior focus, determination and know-how than the rest of the league.. This offsets their talent deficit to the Grizzlies.

So they were less talented individually but a better team? :confusedshrug:


But it's obvious that you're avoiding comparing the actual rosters -
.

2011 Mavericks beat a shit load of teams that were much more talented individually than they were.

Same with the Spurs last year.

Clippers were far more talented than the Rockets this year.

So that begs the question... what exactly are you trying to argue... and why are you trying to argue it?

I really have no idea what you're trying to prove here. :confusedshrug:

[KG215]

Uh... yes you do. :oldlol:



So they were less talented individually but a better team? :confusedshrug:



2011 Mavericks beat a shit load of teams that were much more talented individually than they were.

Same with the Spurs last year.

Clippers were far more talented than the Rockets this year.

So that begs the question... what exactly are you trying to argue... and why are you trying to argue it?

I really have no idea what you're trying to prove here. :confusedshrug:
I agree with everything except the "Clippers were far more talented than the Rockets this year" part. The Rockets were/are considerably deeper. I'd take CP3 and Blake over Harden and Howard, but not by enough to make up for the Rockets being quite a bit deeper than the Clippers.

[3ball]

Rockets are more talented than Clips imo.

[3ball]

So they were less talented individually but a better team?


Yes, otherwise they wouldn't be able to win 55 games with less individual talent.





what exactly are you trying to argue


I figured the point of the thread would be obvious.

Even though MJ's championships required GOAT production from him in playoffs and Finals (as the stats show), people still erroneously say MJ played on super-stacked teams.

So this thread provides an illustration showing MJ's teams weren't even as stacked as the 2015 Memphis Grizzlies, who might not even be a top 10 team talent-wise today.

People also say MJ's 2nd three-peat wasn't impressive because the team had won 55 games - well, even if MJ 3-peated with a much more talented 2nd round exit team - like the 2015 Grizzlies - that accomplishment would still make him GOAT.

[jzek]

Gasol > Pippen (DPOY superior defensive impact, equal offense)



Stopped reading right there.

Pip is an all-time great, top 25 or top 30 all time.

Marc Gasol isn't even the best Gasol brother. :facepalm

[3ball]

Marc Gasol isn't > Pip


Fine... I might have overstepped on that particular matchup, but that's the only matchup the Bulls win..

They lose every other matchup, most by wide margins (Zach Randolph, Mike Conley, Tony Allen, Jeff Green, Vince Carter, Tayshaun Prince, Courtney Lee are all better than Horace Grant, Kukoc, Kerr, Wennington, etc, etc.. Honestly, it's not even worth naming the rest of the Bulls - that's how garbagee they are.. It's not even close tbh.

So this thread shows that MJ's teams weren't even as stacked as the 2015 Memphis Grizzlies, who might not be a top 10 team talent-wise today... Certainly, if he took this year's Griz to a 3-peat and dynasty, he'd be GOAT.. And yet he did 3-peated with the less talented Bulls, leaving zero doubt.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Fine... I might have overstepped on that particular matchup, but that's the only matchup the Bulls win..

They lose every other matchup, most by wide margins (Zach Randolph, Mike Conley, Tony Allen, Jeff Green, Vince Carter, Tayshaun Prince, Courtney Lee are all better than Horace Grant, Kukoc, Kerr, Wennington, etc.. It's not even close tbh.

So this thread shows that MJ's teams weren't even as stacked as the 2015 Memphis Grizzlies, who might not even be a top 10 team talent-wise today.

Where'd this post go?

:roll:

[Spurs5Rings2014]

So this thread shows that MJ's teams weren't even as stacked as the 2015 Memphis Grizzlies, who might not be a top 10 team talent-wise today... Certainly, if he took this year's Griz to a 3-peat and dynasty, he'd be GOAT.. And yet he did 3-peated with the less talented Bulls, leaving zero doubt.

What're you even typing about?

:wtf:

So you're telling me that if you drop the GOAT onto a 55 win team that was up 2-1 vs a GOAT 67-15 team without him and with multiple injured key players missing games, he would win a chip with that team? Are you retarded?

:facepalm

[3ball]

Where'd this post go?

:roll:


It's there - and you're right, it's pretty funny how much more talented the 2015 Grizzlies are than the 1994 Bulls.

Zach Randolph, Mike Conley, Tony Allen, Jeff Green, Vince Carter, Tayshaun Prince, Courtney Lee are all better than Horace Grant, Kukoc, Kerr, Wennington, etc, etc.. Honestly, it's not even worth naming the rest of the Bulls - that's how garbagee they are.. It's not even close tbh.

So this thread shows that MJ's teams weren't even as stacked as the 2015 Memphis Grizzlies, who might not be a top 10 team talent-wise today... Certainly, if he took this year's Griz to a 3-peat and dynasty, he'd be GOAT.. And yet he did 3-peated with the less talented Bulls, leaving zero doubt.

[aj1987]

3ball, you still don't see it? '15 Grizz needed an extremely talented team to get to 55 wins and the 2nd round. More than the '94 Bulls. That means the Grizz are playing in a more competitive era. '10's > '90's. That's basically what you just said.

[kshutts1]

3ball, please respond to my "chemistry, fit, superstar" argument.

I've been waiting for you to enlighten us all as to why fit and chemistry don't matter nearly as much as individual talent.

[3ball]

So you're telling me that if you drop the GOAT onto a 55 win team that was up 2-1 vs a GOAT 67-15 team without him and with multiple injured key players missing games, he would win a chip with that team? Are you retarded?


He wouldn't just win A chip..

He'd at least 3-peat and create an all-time dynasty, since he did those things with a far less talented 55-win team, the 1994 Bulls.

[DonDadda59]

Yes, otherwise they wouldn't be able to win 55 games with less individual talent.



I figured the point of the thread would be obvious.

Even though MJ's championships required GOAT production from him in playoffs and Finals (as the stats show), people still erroneously say MJ played on super-stacked teams.

So this thread provides an illustration showing MJ's teams weren't even as stacked as the 2015 Memphis Grizzlies, who might not even be a top 10 team talent-wise today.

People also say MJ's 2nd three-peat wasn't impressive because the team had won 55 games - well, even if MJ 3-peated with a much more talented 2nd round exit team - like the 2015 Grizzlies - that accomplishment would still make him GOAT.

So the point of this thread is to argue that if you dropped the consensus GOAT player onto a 'FAR more talented' team than the one he won championships with (and who won the same # of games, had the same playoff success as the Grizzlies w/o him)... then he would have a great chance of winning with them?

Eye-opening stuff. Revelatory :applause:

[3ball]

'15 Grizz needed an extremely talented team to get to 55 wins and the 2nd round. More than the '94 Bulls.

That means the Grizz are playing in a more competitive era. '10's > '90's. That's basically what you just said.


Nah, the Grizzlies might not even be a top 10 team as far as talent in today's league, and neither were the 1994 Bulls in 1994.

But both teams made up for their non-elite talent by with superior strategy and team chemistry/realized synergies.. It helps a GOAT-ton when you just 3-peated.
.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

So the point of this thread is to argue that if you dropped the consensus GOAT player onto a 'FAR more talented' team than the one he won championships with (and who won the same # of games, had the same playoff success as the Grizzlies w/o him)... then he would have a great chance of winning with them?

Eye-opening stuff. Revelatory :applause:

3ball would argue grass is green and the world is round. Dude is completely mental.

:hammerhead:

[3ball]

So the point of this thread is to argue that if you dropped the consensus GOAT player onto a 'FAR more talented' team than the one he won championships with then he would have a great chance of winning with them?

Eye-opening stuff. Revelatory :applause:


No.. That's not what I said.. And I wrote pretty clearly.

I said that if he took this year's Griz to a 3-peat and dynasty, he'd be considered GOAT.. So since he did exactly that with the far less talented Bulls, it's further proof that he's the GOAT.. :confusedshrug:

[DonDadda59]

Such bizarre 'logic'.

You can make that nonsensical argument for any player.

Shaq 3-peated with a team FAR less talented than the 2015 Warriors... put Shaq on the Warriors, he 3-peats with them... that proves he's the GOAT.

Tell me where I'm wrong by your logic. :confusedshrug:

[oarabbus]

3ball shooting himself in the foot badly :lol

[3ball]

Such bizarre 'logic'.

You can make that nonsensical argument for any player.

Shaq 3-peated with a team FAR less talented than the 2015 Warriors... put Shaq on the Warriors, he 3-peats with them... that proves he's the GOAT.

Tell me where I'm wrong by your logic. :confusedshrug:
Bad example because the Warriors are a Finals team while the Grizzlies were a 2nd round exit team.

But absolutely - if Shaq was put on this year's Warriors, and 3-peated while winning 2 regular season MVP's and 3 FMVP's, then that would be considered GOAT.. 3-peating is always considered a GOAT feat because it's never been done before other than Shaq, MJ, and 60's Celtics.. So if someone did that while winning 5 MVP's and averaging 30 PPG, that would definitely be GOAT.

And again, MJ did all that with a team far less talented than the Griz or the Warriors.... It's just further proof that he's GOAT - that's what this thread is all about.. Further proof...

But of course, a truly stacked team DOESN'T NEED anyone to average 30 PPG or be the GOAT scorer.. Only a team that isn't stacked needs that.. Only a team that had far less talent then the 2015 Grizzlies would need a 30 PPG scorer to 3-peat... Are you starting to get my drift?
.

[kshutts1]

Bad example because the Warriors are a Finals team while the Grizzlies were a 2nd round exit team.

But absolutely - if Shaq was put on this year's Warriors, and 3-peated while winning 2 regular season MVP's and 3 FMVP's, then that would be considered GOAT.. 3-peating is always considered a GOAT feat because it's never been done before other than Shaq, MJ, and 60's Celtics.. So if someone did that while winning 5 MVP's and averaging 30 PPG, that would definitely be GOAT.

And again, MJ did all that with a team far less talented than the Griz or the Warriors.... It's just further proof that he's GOAT.
So... Jordan is not really the GOAT? But rather had amazing team circumstances? Because clearly if any great player could join a great team and 3peat, then that detracts from Jordan doing it, yes?

[3ball]

So... Jordan is not really the GOAT? But rather had amazing team circumstances? Because clearly if any great player could join a great team and 3peat, then that detracts from Jordan doing it, yes?


The very part you bolded answers your question.

The player added to the stacked team MUST win 2 regular season MVP's, 3 FMVP's and average 30 PPG.. Then yes, they'd be considered GOAT (and they'd probably still be GOAT if they achieved 1 or 2 less MVP's).

But of course, a truly stacked team DOESN'T NEED anyone to average 30 PPG or be the GOAT scorer.. Only a team that isn't stacked needs that.. Only a team that had far less talent then the 2015 Grizzlies would need a 30 PPG scorer to 3-peat... Are you starting to get my drift?

[aj1987]

The very part you bolded answers your question.

The player added to the stacked team MUST win 2 regular season MVP's, 3 FMVP's and average 30 PPG.. Then yes, they'd be considered GOAT (and they'd probably still be GOAT if they achieved 1 or 2 less MVP's).

But of course, a truly stacked team DOESN'T NEED anyone to average 30 PPG or be the GOAT scorer.. Only a team that isn't stacked needs that.. Only a team that had far less talent then the 2015 Grizzlies... Are you starting to get my drift?
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

29-17.

Move along, kid. You just admitted that MJ played in a weak era. Kobe > MJ.

[DonDadda59]

Bad example because the Warriors are a Finals team while the Grizzlies were a 2nd round exit team.

OK, so put Shaq on this year's Clippers w/ CP3, Blake, DeAndre/Crawford coming off the bench. :confusedshrug:


But absolutely - if Shaq was put on this year's Warriors, and 3-peated while winning 2 regular season MVP's and 3 FMVP's, then that would be considered GOAT.. 3-peating is always considered a GOAT feat because it's never been done before other than Shaq, MJ, and 60's Celtics.. So if someone did that while winning 5 MVP's and averaging 30 PPG, that would definitely be GOAT.

OK, so basically what you're arguing is that GOAT status is based on pure speculation and 'what-if' scenarios. :applause:


And again, MJ did all that with a team far less talented than the Griz or the Warriors.... It's just further proof that he's GOAT - that's what this thread is all about.. Further proof.

Curry>Kobe (it's true if Gasol>Pippen :mad: )
Thompson>>Fisher
Bogut>>>>Grant
Green>>>>>Fox

Barnes, Barbosa>>>>>AC Green, Tyron Lue.

Shaq da GOAT.

[kshutts1]

The very part you bolded answers your question.

The player added to the stacked team MUST win 2 regular season MVP's, 3 FMVP's and average 30 PPG.. Then yes, they'd be considered GOAT (and they'd probably still be GOAT if they achieved 1 or 2 less MVP's).

But of course, a truly stacked team DOESN'T NEED anyone to average 30 PPG or be the GOAT scorer.. Only a team that isn't stacked needs that.. Only a team that had far less talent then the 2015 Grizzlies would need a 30 PPG scorer to 3-peat... Are you starting to get my drift?
So you can see my posts. I was starting to think you had me blocked, which would be ironic.

Anyway... please respond to my "chemistry, fit, superstar" argument. Explain how the Grizz' pieces fit together better than the Bulls, in particular relative to league style. And then also please address how one team had a superstar (Pippen), while the other did not, and what perceived value that had.

I'm not conceding that the Grizz ARE more talented than that Bulls team. But IF they are, I'm suggesting that it doesn't matter, because talent does not always equal results.

[3ball]

OK, so basically what you're arguing is that GOAT status is based on pure speculation and 'what-if' scenarios. :applause:


No, it's based on who made the biggest contribution to the winningest team.. Of course, the more stacked a team is, the less production they need from any 1 player.. A stacked team certainly doesn't need anyone to average 30 PPG or be the GOAT scorer..

Only a team that isn't stacked needs that.. Only a team that had far less talent then the 2015 Grizzlies... Are you starting to get my drift?..

Jordan's Bulls teams weren't stacked, which is why he had to put up GOAT stats... the GOAT stats prove he had less help... 2+2 = 4... If a guy has to put up more stats to win his rings, then he had less help, period.. Or are you disputing that?.

[DonDadda59]

the GOAT stats prove he had less help... 2+2 = 4... If a guy has to put up more stats to win his rings, then he had less help, period.. Or are you disputing that?[/I].

So when Shaq was putting up 40/20 with Kobe in the lineup in the finals or Bron now (and you claimed the Cavs now are more talented than the 55 win Bulls)... that means they had no help and are GOAT candidates, right? :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

What team had a more TALENTED roster...

2015 Clips or 2015 Rockets?

2011 Heat or 2011 Mavericks?

2014 Thunder or 2014 anyone else?

Talent is not the end-all, be-all. Even IF Memphis had the better relative roster, a lot can be said for chemistry, style, makeup, superstar factor, etc.


Of course - that's why the Bulls were able to win 55 games with less talent - they had tremendous chemistry from 3-peating and A PROVEN FORMULA (triangle) that was superior strategy to the rest of the league.

Grizzlies are similar - they aren't as talented as say, the Clippers, but they have superior strategy and chemistry, particularly defensively.

Btw, the sick chemistry the Bulls had from 3-peating, was due mostly to MJ - he was the biggest reason building that team's chemistry through the years around his GOAT offense, finally into 3-peat champions.

[aj1987]

What team had a more TALENTED roster...

2015 Clips or 2015 Rockets?

2011 Heat or 2011 Mavericks?

2014 Thunder or 2014 Spurs?

Talent is not the end-all, be-all. Even IF Memphis had the better relative roster, a lot can be said for chemistry, makeup, style, superstar factor, etc.
The bolded were more talented. If LeBron doesn't choke in '11, the Heat would've probably swept or at worst won in 5 against the Mav's.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan wins championships playing for a stacked team? Damn such great insight.

[3ball]

So when Shaq was putting up 40/20 or Lebron now

that means they had no help and are GOAT candidates, right?


It means they played at a GOAT level for an individual series.

Whereas MJ's career stats were GOAT, while winning the most rings.. You want me to post the stats?

But I would argue that Shaq had more help than MJ for his entire career - superior synergies can be realized when 2 top 10 all-time candidates play together.. Can you imagine MJ and Kobe playing off each other and ripping the other teams heart out mentally?... That would be a completely different level than MJ and Scottie.. They're supporting cast wouldn't matter AT ALL.
.

[97 bulls]

I wouldn't necessarily say the Gtizzlies werethat more talented than the Bulls. Some of the guys you mentioned Prince and Carter arent no where near the players they were in the past.

Pippen
Grant
Armstrong
Longley
Kerr
Kukoc

Aren't that far off from
Gasol
Conley
Randolph
Lee
Allen
Green

And then let's not forget the coaches either.

[97 bulls]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

29-17.

Move along, kid. You just admitted that MJ played in a weak era. Kobe > MJ.
How? Because his team could win 50+ games without him? Lets not forget the Grizzlies also have the advantage of playing against those terrible East teams as well. The Conferences in the mid 90s was more balanced.

[3ball]

Jordan wins championships playing for a stacked team? Damn such great insight.


The thread doesn't say that anywhere.

The thread says that if MJ was added to this year's Warriors and 3-peated, he would be considered the goat, IF AND ONLY IF he put up the same stats he did in Chicago - i.e. GOAT scoring averages with all the regular season and Finals MVPs.

But of course, the more stacked a team is, the less production they need from any 1 player.. A stacked team like the Warriors certainly doesn't need anyone to average 30 PPG or be the GOAT scorer.

Only a team that isn't stacked needs GOAT scoring and production - such as a team that had far less talent then this year's Grizzlies, like the 1994 Bulls!

And that's the whole point.. Jordan's Bulls teams WEREN'T stacked, which is why he had to put up GOAT stats... the GOAT stats prove he had less help... 2+2 = 4... If a guy has to put up more stats to win his rings, then he had less help, period.

[97 bulls]

No, it's based on who made the biggest contribution to the winningest team.. Of course, the more stacked a team is, the less production they need from any 1 player.. A stacked team certainly doesn't need anyone to average 30 PPG or be the GOAT scorer..

Only a team that isn't stacked needs that.. Only a team that had far less talent then the 2015 Grizzlies... Are you starting to get my drift?..

Jordan's Bulls teams weren't stacked, which is why he had to put up GOAT stats... the GOAT stats prove he had less help... 2+2 = 4... If a guy has to put up more stats to win his rings, then he had less help, period.. Or are you disputing that?.
This is ridiculous. Jordan took so many shots because he wanted to. Not to mention the offense ran through him. He was the Bulls best opportunity to score. He was always a mismatch on anyone you put on him. He was efficient, consistent, and versatile. Why would you not want him to take that many shots? Why would you want to take the ball out of his hands if the opposition cant stop him?

And your argument that Jordan carried the biggest load is disengenuine. He never had to be the Bulls best rebounder Grant and Rodman handled that, Pippen had the biggest defensive role and ran the offense. Longley and Cartwright banged down low. Every played their rolls.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan's Bulls teams WEREN'T stacked, which is why he had to put up GOAT stats... the GOAT stats prove he had less help... 2+2 = 4... If a guy has to put up more stats to win his rings, then he had less help, period.

Wait, you're saying the 1996 and 1997 Bulls, two of the greatest teams of all-time, weren't stacked relative to their competition?

Excuse me for a moment...


:crazysam:

[97 bulls]

The thread doesn't say that anywhere.

The thread says that if MJ was added to this year's Warriors and 3-peated, he would be considered the goat, IF AND ONLY IF he put up the same stats he did in Chicago - i.e. GOAT scoring averages with all the regular season and Finals MVPs.

But of course, the more stacked a team is, the less production they need from any 1 player.. A stacked team like the Warriors certainly doesn't need anyone to average 30 PPG or be the GOAT scorer.

Only a team that isn't stacked needs GOAT scoring and production - such as a team that had far less talent then this year's 55-win Grizzlies, like the 1994 Bulls!

And that's the whole point.. Jordan's Bulls teams WEREN'T stacked, which is why he had to put up GOAT stats... the GOAT stats prove he had less help... 2+2 = 4... If a guy has to put up more stats to win his rings, then he had less help, period.
Again not stats!&&&&&!!&&&!!!!!! SCORING!!!!!!!!!!! Youre acting as if Jordan went out and dropped 44/19/15 every night. Thats GOAT stats.

[3ball]

Wait, you're saying the 1996 and 1997 Bulls weren't stacked relative to their competition?


The Bulls had the league's leading scorer, which by definition, means the team ISN'T stacked - no stacked team needs the league-leading scorer.. :confusedshrug:

It could be argued that Houston was more stacked (Barkley/Olajuwon/Drexler).. San Antonio was more stacked (3 all-stars in Duncan, Robinson, Sean Elliot)... Seattle was more stacked (3 all-stars Payton, Kemp, Schrempf)... Orlando was more stacked (Shaq/Penny/Horace/Nick Anderson).. Lakers were more stacked (Shaq/Eddie Jones/Nick Van Exel).. Utah was more stacked (Malone, Stockton, Hornacek).

[3ball]

Again not stats!&&&&&!!&&&!!!!!! SCORING!!!!!!!!!!!

Youre acting as if Jordan went out and dropped 44/19/15 every night.



MJ had the GOAT stats - WAY better than Lebron:


PLAYOFF STATS THRU AGE 30:

Jordan: 35 PPG / 7 APG / 50.1% FG
Lebron: 28 PPG / 6 APG / 47.8% FG


FINALS STATS THRU AGE 30:

Jordan: 36 PPG / 8 APG / 53% FG
Lebron: 24 PPG / 6 APG / 46% FG


So G-T-F-O... Lebron needs 1.5 Finals games to match 1 game from MJ.. An entire extra HALF of basketball.. :facepalm

[97 bulls]

MJ had the GOAT stats - WAY better than Lebron:


PLAYOFF STATS THRU AGE 30:

Jordan: 35 PPG / 7 APG / 50.1% FG
Lebron: 28 PPG / 6 APG / 47.8% FG


FINALS STATS THRU AGE 30:

Jordan: 36 PPG / 8 APG / 53% FG
Lebron: 24 PPG / 6 APG / 46% FG


So G-T-F-O... Lebron needs 1.5 Finals games to match 1 game from MJ.. An entire extra HALF of basketball.. :facepalm
Do you know what GOAT means? It stands for "greatest of ALL TIME"!!!!!!! Im stressing ALL TIME. This has always been your argument. Jordan's stats are nowhere near Wilts. Birds., Bryants, Magic, Jabbars to name a few are on par . Whats with your hard on for Lebron James????

[97 bulls]

The Bulls had the league's leading scorer, which by definition, means the team ISN'T stacked - no stacked team needs the league-leading scorer.. :confusedshrug:

It could be argued that Houston was more stacked (Barkley/Olajuwon/Drexler).. San Antonio was more stacked (3 all-stars in Duncan, Robinson, Sean Elliot)... Seattle was more stacked (3 all-stars Payton, Kemp, Schrempf)... Orlando was more stacked (Shaq/Penny/Horace/Nick Anderson).. Lakers were more stacked (Shaq/Eddie Jones/Nick Van Exel).. Utah was more stacked (Malone, Stockton, Hornacek).
The Bulls also had the leagues greatest scorer. Why would they intentionally go away from that?

Its obvious that theyr were a damn good team without him. We actually saw what they were capable of. And what is your point of comparing all these other teams big threes to the Bulls without Jordan? It makes no sense.

[Smoke117]

Gasol > Pippen (DPOY superior defensive impact, equal offense)
VPs.


http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/no%20no%20no/grand/1780549-shakehead.gif

...and he actually expects people to take him seriously.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

3ball ignores everything but scoring. How about rebounds: Rodman best of his era; playmaking: Pippen one of the greatest point-forwards in history; defense: Pippen one the greatest defenders in history; shooting: Kerr statistically the greatest 3PT shooter in history; coaching: Jackson arguably the best coach in history - why ignore that and make yourself look foolish? Is this failed gimmick intentional?

Bottom line, you don't win 6x championships just off individual scoring.

[3ball]

3ball ignores everything but scoring.


MJ averaged more assists than Lebron thru the same age and more than Pippen as well..

MJ's career assist percentage is 24.9% and 28.2% in regular season and playoffs, to Pippen's 23.1% and 21.8%.. So not even CLOSE.

MJ was DPOY while Pippen was having migraines and disappearing... The mental strength of that team came from MJ.. And the entire offense ran through MJ - he's the GOAT scorer who still averaged more assists than Pippen.. Like Isiah Thomas said, Pippen was just along for the ride..

If Pippen never played alongside MJ, he'd be Batum - solid all-star, but never an all-time 50 greatest, etc.
.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

MJ averaged more assists than Lebron thru the same age and more than Pippen as well..

MJ's career assist percentage is 24.9% and 28.2% in regular season and playoffs, to Pippen's 23.1% and 21.8%.. So not even CLOSE.

MJ was DPOY while Pippen was having migraines and disappearing... The mental strength of that team came from MJ.. And the entire offense ran through MJ - he's the GOAT scorer who still averaged more assists than Pippen.. Like Isiah Thomas said, Pippen was just along for the ride..

If Pippen never played alongside MJ, he'd be Paul George - solid all-star, but never an all-time great 50 greatest, etc.
Uhhh, his "assist percentage" isn't even realistic (:oldlol: at assist opportunities per 100 possessions). First of all, Pippen was the lead playmaker on the Bulls during their championship reign, and averaged more assists per game in the playoffs to boot.

The other stuff in your post is hyperbole. All of this when: A) Pippen was still developing into a superstar, and B) The Bulls were not yet a championship caliber team

MJ is MJ, but again, he didn't do everything. Offense is only one side of the ball, young buck.

[3ball]

. Offense is only one side the ball, young buck.
MJ won DPOY and was considered a better defender than Scottie - learn your history

[3ball]

http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/no%20no%20no/grand/1780549-shakehead.gif


As usual, you're arguing semantics, not the issue - regardless of whether you agree about Gasol and Pippen, the Grizzlies roster is clearly far superior to the 1994 Bulls..

Horace Grant, Toni Kukocs, Steve Kerr and Bill Wennington don't compare to Zach Randolph, Mike Conley, Tony Allen, Jeff Green, Courtney Lee, Vince Carter, and Tayshaun Prince.. Like, I can't even finish the list of Bulls supporting cast because they're such garbage nobodies.

So again, anyone would be considered GOAT if they led this year's Griz to a 3-peat WHILE winning 2 regular season MVP's, 3 FMVP's and averaging 30 PPG... And that's exactly what MJ did with a less-talented team..

Of course, the more talented Griz would never need MJ to average 30 PPG like the Bulls did - which brings us back to the original point - Jordan's Bulls teams WEREN'T stacked, which is why he had to put up GOAT stats... the GOAT stats prove he had less help... 2+2 = 4... If a guy has to put up more stats to win his rings, then he had less help, period.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

MJ won DPOY and was considered a better defender than Scottie - learn your history
From 1993-98, he was never a better defensive player and playmaker than Pippen. Nor was he a better rebounder than Rodman or long range shooter than Kerr.

Next thing you know... 3ball will start claiming Mike was a better coach than Phil too. :oldlol:

[Angel Face]

:roll:

Gasol > Pippen?

:roll:

[3ball]

Next thing you know... 3ball will start claiming Mike was a better coach than Phil too. :oldlol:


I wouldn't be the first..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=20m23s

:confusedshrug:





From 1993-98, he was never a better defensive player and playmaker than Pippen. Nor was he a better rebounder than Rodman or long range shooter than Kerr.


MJ's career assist percentages in regular season and playoffs were 24.9% 28.2%, which is significantly higher than Pippen's 23.4% and 21.2%.. The numbers are simply on my side.

But back to the point of the thread - a player would be considered GOAT if they led this year's Griz to a 3-peat WHILE WINNING two regular season MVP's, 3 FMVP's and averaging 30 PPG... And that's exactly what MJ did for a less-talented team.

Of course, there's the obvious elephant in the room - the more talented Griz would never need MJ to average 30 PPG like the Bulls did - which brings us back to the original point - Jordan's Bulls teams WEREN'T stacked, which is why he had to put up GOAT stats... the GOAT stats prove he had less help... 2+2 = 4... If a guy has to put up more stats to win his rings, then he had less help, period.

[navy]

This man Jordan has 6 Championships, 6 FMVPs, 5 MVPS and averages about 30/6/6+ and this is the nonsense 3ball uses to "defend" his legacy.

Dafuq?

[ShawkFactory]

Wait...so Jordan's supporting cast in the 90s is not quite as good as a 55 win solid contender in the West? No shit asshole.

If you add a superstar to that Grizzlies team...there's no way they don't win the title.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I wouldn't be the first..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=20m23s

:confusedshrug:

They feared Jordan, so that automatically makes him the coach? lol

BTW, Rick Reilly is an absolute hack, and that goes without saying (http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2013/09/19/12-sportswriters-rip-espns-rick-reilly-column-defending-redskins-151348).

All in all, you're obviously trolling so there's no point in discussing this any further. Later, rookie.

[Lebron23]

http://www.420247.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/michael-jordan-stoned-meme.jpg

[LeBird]

The Bulls had the league's leading scorer, which by definition, means the team ISN'T stacked - no stacked team needs the league-leading scorer.. :confusedshrug:

:lol ...keep digging.