How much do you honestly care if a player you root for is dirty?

[Kblaze8855]

Clearly inspired by recent issues..


A legion(internet wide) of Cavs fans doing the "Everyone is wrong but us" thing that fans sometimes do. Ive always figured when a wide enough assortment of other fans agree there is probably something to it....


Hes at least a jerk. He plays basketball to agitate....hes intentionally annoying. If someone played a game with you behaving like that...you would leave feeling hes dirty. Hes being an ass at the very least. Wilbon mentioned speaking to a couple former players who were adamant that "We know how to fall..." and guys like him are reckless on purpose to annoy you.

But my issue isnt that the dude is dirty...

Its asking why do fans feel a need to argue their players arent?

What.....would you feel guilty rooting for a dirty player? I never have.


Rodman was dirty as hell. He committed harder fouls than he had to, went outside the nature of the game to annoy people, didnt really care if you got hurt...hell he literally joined the New World Order:



http://cdn.triangleoffense.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Dennis-NWO-Rodman.gif


Pippen would get dirty when he had to. Stockton was considered dirty by most everyone who he defended.

All among my all time favorites.

Karl Malone was dirty as hell. Charles Barkley had dirty moments.

What is so awful in admitting it or stepping back and seeing that when fans with no allegiances otherwise all see it they might be right and you might be emotional?

Bruce Bowen had spurs fans defending his dirty ass on here for years. Hes out here kicking multiple people in the face:



https://incipiatturba.net/images/lost/bowen_szczerbiak2.gif






http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/23450000/ngbbs4eb4067de694b.jpg



And taking out guys like Steve Francis, Vince Carter, and Amare intentionally running up on them so they cant come down clean.

I listened to him on Mike and Mike one morning explain how he would intentionally piss Ray Allen off holding his hands and arms whenever the ref isnt looking. Then he denies it like hell to the refs just to see Ray get flustered.

He explained it in great detail....how he went outside the rules to intentionally hold and foul Ray Allen the minute the refs arent looking because he knew Ray would get annoyed.

Is it good defense? A good tactic? sure.

But you are playing basketball with someone who just walks up and pulls on your hands to annoy you....closes out extra hard to bother your landing at the risk of injuring you...decides to foul so often the refs simply cant call them all....

Dude is dirty...even if he isnt kicking dudes in the face.

And yet dozens of Spurs fans got on here and swore he wasnt. Explained how it was all coincidence....someone else did whatever else earlier....just ignoring reality.

Being a fan can blind you to whats right in front of you....fine. But a guy being dirty or not being dirty....what about that is something to defend?

Would you feel guilty rooting for a dirty player? Why...when everyone does at one time or another? I dont believe ive ever had a "___ isnt dirty you guyyyyz!" argument. When one of my favorite players at the time was accused of it way back in 07....



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63372


Why do people call Andres Nocioni dirty?


11-18-2007, 01:40 PM #6
Kblaze8855
Titles are overrated


Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: I love me some me.
Posts: 14,371 Re: Why do people call Andres Nocioni dirty?


Because he is.





Seems I was a bit more to the point back then.

Which reminds me to get to it....

Everyone who is a fan of the NBA roots for the douchebag now and then.

Why get in arguments defending yours? Whoever is calling him out roots for one too....if they dont....they used to.

If it isnt feeling guilty for repping a scumbag...what is it?

These fanbases genuinely think that they have the unbiased take? And that its the rest of the leagues fans who are wrong....every time?

Embrace the darkside and you get in far less arguments and lose a lot less of your credibility in dealing with other fans.










If you dont at least smirk when you watch this you arent welcome in my livingroom to watch the playoffs....

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Dennis-Rodman-Karl-Malone-Fight-1998-NBA-Finals.gif

[TheMarkMadsen]

There's a difference between playing rough and intentionally falling on the side of somebodys leg with your entire body weight..

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Insecurity; fans think 'dirty' has a negative connotation attached to it, thus don't wanna be associated w/ such a term.

Like you said, though, many teams have had their share of dirty players. Hell, my Clippers have Matt Barnes who I think is vile as they come. :lol

[Fallen Angel]

I remember when I was literally the only Patrick Beverley fan in 2013, literally everyone on ISH hated how hard he plays.

How soon they forget....

[iamgine]

There's veteran trick "dirty" (holding hands down, shirt pulling, arm locking, pushing, flopping) and there's DIRTY (intentionally trying to injure).

Dellavedova ain't dirty. He just plays too hard that he becomes a danger to himself and others.

[plowking]

It literally just seems to be the people that hate Cleveland due to Lebron that are saying Delly is dirty though.

It doesn't matter, to me, at least. Delly isn't dirty, and he is slowly becoming one of my favourite players. I have no problem in saying other players I like are though.

The issue people have with those calling Delly dirty, is because he isn't. You can't be dirty for being pulled down and diving on loose balls.
The guy doesn't even do any of the things outside of the game that other pesky and annoying defenders did. He doesn't trip, slide his foot under, face guard, etc. He stays in front of his man and plays physical.

I honestly think, in the Delly case, it is because he is foreign and small but at the same time not thrown by any of the physicality thrown back at him that annoys players. It was the same thing with Aaron Gray. Dude was a brick wall and literally could not be moved, and that pissed a bunch of people off playing against him.

[Kblaze8855]

Anyone else remember some fans on here trying to argue Danny Fortson wasnt dirty? I dont expect many to remember Danny Fortson....but really...anyone who isnt a fan of his who watched him? You know he was dirtier than actual silicon dioxide. And he had people playing the "Well...he just plays hard and ___ doesnt like his aggressive style" card.

[Kblaze8855]

It literally just seems to be the people that hate Cleveland due to Lebron that are saying Delly is dirty though.

There was a guy so upset Reggie called him dirty he was saying there should be a lawsuit. The topic didnt last long....but it existed. And people act like Reggie is in love with Lebron. Nothing is only one group saying anything.

This clearly isnt. Too many players have chimed in on the matter for me to ignore it. Nobody is called out for nothing. Nobody. Ever.

[Hittin_Shots]

I didn't read that essay, but how can anyone watch those plays and come up with delladova being dirty... I hadn't seen the leg lock until last night but from what ppl were saying here I thought it was gonna be terrible but was fkn nothing and that was the only one you can legitimately say he intentionally did anything.

[Kblaze8855]

There's veteran trick "dirty" (holding hands down, shirt pulling, arm locking, pushing, flopping) and there's DIRTY (intentionally trying to injure).

There are degrees of everything. But the "tricks" are still dirty. I mean...this isnt intending to hurt anyone....

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs1/2164100_o.gif

But he pulls a guys shorts down on purpose.

Its dirty as hell.

Funny.

But its dirty.

[plowking]

There was a guy so upset Reggie called him dirty he was saying there should be a lawsuit. The topic didnt last long....but it existed. And people act like Reggie is in love with Lebron. Nothing is only one group saying anything.

This clearly isnt. Too many players have chimed in on the matter for me to ignore it. Nobody is called out for nothing. Nobody. Ever.

Yeah, right. :facepalm

It is typical American train of thought. You guys always feel as if there is a need to get back at someone, or that everything happened because someone wanted it to happen. It is sport, some shit just happens.

It is like getting into car accidents constantly, with absolutely none being your fault at all, and then somehow you're called the bad driver by your peers. Just doesn't make sense.

[plowking]

Lebron James has made more dirty plays in his career than Delly has in his and no one has called Bron dirty.

If Horford doesn't react like a bitch, and the play continues, none of this is an issue. You guys do get that, right?
All we have is the Korver incident, which no one brought up at all as a dirty play prior to Horford being a bitch.

[Kblaze8855]

If you get into car accidents all the time youre a bad driver. People are only gonna run a red and Tbone you so often.

[plowking]

If you get into car accidents all the time youre a bad driver. People are only gonna run a red and Tbone you so often.

If it isn't your fault, then you can't base it off that. Only on what we have to go by, and that is the information we're given. So, no, you aren't.

Same as Delly. If Horford doesn't elbow him in the head, none of this gets brought up about Delly being a dirty player.

Incredible how one dude gets to elbow the other, and we sit here asking if the other guy is the dirty one.

[Kblaze8855]

Lebron James has made more dirty plays in his career than Delly has in his and no one has called Bron dirty.

If Horford doesn't react like a bitch, and the play continues, none of this is an issue. You guys do get that, right?
All we have is the Korver incident, which no one brought up at all as a dirty play prior to Horford being a bitch.


Look into that....

And I dont care about these plays.

Hes an obvious agitator. Its not about one big moment. Hes annoying on purpose. He does things outside the requirements of the game for the express purpose of being annoying. Hes a jerk on the court.

Doesnt make him a bad person. It makes him agitating. A leg lock isnt something I exactly care about...he does it for the reason Rodman would.

To be a jackass and get you to lose your cool.

It isnt about a basketball play. Its annoying you for no reason but annoying you.

Its being a little Australian Rodman.

[Kblaze8855]

Fault is an issue for the law and insurance. If you and other cars are slamming into eachother often...you are doing something wrong.

There is a reason some people drive 50 years without an accident and some get hit all the time. Getting rear ended isnt ever really your...fault. But it sure as hell is an issue that can be limited by driving well.

[Springsteen]

Dennis Rodman was on NWO?? :eek:

GOAT :bowdown:

[plowking]

Look into that....

And I dont care about these plays.

Hes an obvious agitator. Its not about one big moment. Hes annoying on purpose. He does things outside the requirements of the game for the express purpose of being annoying. Hes a jerk on the court.

Doesnt make him a bad person. It makes him agitating. A leg lock isnt something I exactly care about...he does it for the reason Rodman would.

To be a jackass and get you to lose your cool.

It isnt about a basketball play. Its annoying you for no reason but annoying you.

Its being a little Australian Rodman.

Based on what? Tell me, outside of that one leglock, what in the hell has he done? What trait is there in his game that makes him an agitator? What trait is there that is outside the requirements of the game? You're just talking shit for the sake of it.

He doesn't faceguard, doesn't pull jerseys, doesn't intimidate, doesn't slide under players when shooting, etc. What does he do that has been a constant like that for Rodman, Bowen or Battier for example?

[JellyBean]

Depends on how you define "dirty". I mean KG has been called dirty for years but his level of "dirty" isn't the same as say a Bill Laimbeer. Charles Okaley was "dirty" player. He was a lot more physical. So it really only depends on how you define "dirty".

[Kblaze8855]

Do you really think I keep a file on moments of apparent....agitation? I dont think I could give you 5 off the top of my head from Rodman who I watched hundreds of times and have a lot of footage on. Even Cleveland fans generally acknowledge the aggression.

Bruce bowen was an agitator not because of 5 incidents anyone can remember in his entire career. But because of a general play style anyone not trying to look past it can see.

You see these guys all the time. Comes in and within 45 seconds someone pushes them out of the blue and gets a foul. It happened literally 2 hours ago. They come in and get pesky...bug you...and do it just to piss you off. Similar to Steven Adams. Random guys arent losing their cool over nothing.

It does not come from nowhere. Just having played basketball that should be obvious. Maybe less so since hes Australian like you and for some reason the idea of supporting an agitator upsets people...

But really...you think NBA hall of famers are making statements out of sheer hatred for this guy they dont know? Or that fans from a dozen fanbases just pull it out the blue?

You watch the guy...hes a pest. I think Bradley beal said exactly that(in praise for the record). Just one of those scrappy, pretty inconsiderate, and reckless, guys who will also....hold you or hit you or...leg lock you...to annoy you. To upset you...on purpose.

We have all seen theese people. Played them. Are annoyed by them. One of my best friends plays that way. hes a chore just to have in the game. Good guy...plays like a jerk.

They are not rare.

[iamgine]

There are degrees of everything. But the "tricks" are still dirty. I mean...this isnt intending to hurt anyone....

But he pulls a guys shorts down on purpose.

Its dirty as hell.

Funny.

But its dirty.
yes thus in my post there's the word "dirty"

[plowking]

He literally said nothing that you've insinuated though. That he goes out of the way out of the game.

I didn't ask you for specific moments. I'm asking for specific traits. Rodman always grabbed, stuck out his butt and hit off the ball. Battier always faceguarded. Bowen always slid under the feet after shots.

What is it that Delly does?

Don't try and bring it back to me because I'm Australian and I support him. It has nothing to do with that. I thought Zo was dirty when he played, I think Bogut is slightly dirty, and I like him more than Delly.

Delly just isn't dirty, but it is typical American mind state and media over there trying to make a story.

Why are NBA hall of famers bringing it up? They're on television. They have to justify why the other dude elbowed him so he doesn't get called a dirty player. They're looking after the product and all the players. "He must have done something because the other guy did something"... "Yeah, that is why"... "Just players getting caught up".
Not to mention the American players who now commentate on TV always look after their American counter parts, and at times have even mocked the Euro's with stupid commentary.

[Kblaze8855]

First of all....



Don't try and bring it back to me because I'm Australian and I support him. It has nothing to do with that.


It has everything to do with that. Did you fail to note the many examples cited of fans with emotional ties to the people in question?

People like you are exactly the ones this topic is about.

Second...once you get into the whole "typical american" and american media pretecting the reputation of American athletes thing....im just kinda tuning you out.

Nobody gives a shit where that kid is from. And Reggie Miller is not stopping to think "Oh...that Australian tripped an American!" before voicing his opinion.

Reggie doesnt care. I dont care. Nobody....anywhere but New Zealand for some reason...has an anti Australian bias. And its that kind of irrational leap that makes it obvious you are more emotional than levelheaded on the issue.

Looking for any reason people could think hes an agitator...beyond it being true.

Nobody is calling him a bad person.

But I wouldnt want to play basketball with people who play that way.

Maybe he will grow out of it. As horford mentioned...hes young. There is a bit of a brotherhood...guys learn how to play hard and not roll up on knees and all. But it doesnt much bother me.

Root for him till the end of time.

I just dont see why people are so offended by the idea that many think a guy is dirty. I dont know what about it riles people up...we ALL root for guys who play on or over the line at times.

I dont see what the big deal is or why its something worth fighting the perception of

[ralph_i_el]

almost every strong, white player is considered dirty

[kshutts1]

I don't mind the "dirty" player nearly as much as I mind the refs looking the other way.

Super minor example... As soon as Delly entered the game yesterday, he drew an offensive foul on Teague. But watch that play. Delly did NOTHING basketball-legit. He just annoyed him. Bumped him, in the backcourt, when Teague didn't have the ball, for no reason. Teague would push him off, Delly would chest-bump him again. Went on like that for maybe 2-3 times, then Teague shoved Delly off. Bam. Offensive foul.

Was it an offensive foul? Yes. Can't/shouldn't push a player off you like that. But don't tell me Delly was playing good D and not committing fouls by purposefully bumping Teague.

Prior to seeing this thread, my thought on Delly was not that he was dirty, but his sole purpose of being on the court is to agitate the other team. And I hate that those players are allowed, and refs look the other way.

I have NEVER been agitated by another player that was playing legit basketball. And I've probably played more ball than most people on this forum, considering my age. Never.

Now, that's not to say that Horford was righteous and correct in elbowing Delly. But can the refs, at least once, call a foul on the agitation? Look the other way for the expected and understood and realistic retaliation? The "T" was a good start. But that's not basketball. Delly doesn't play basketball. And that's why I don't like him.

That said, I've rooted for Rodman, Noah, Cartwright, Oakley, and a host of other "dirty" players. I didn't like them, but I root for them. I had no problem admitting they were dirty. I had no problem admitting I didn't like them. And I had no problem cheering for them because they were on my team.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don't mind the "dirty" player nearly as much as I mind the refs looking the other way.

Super minor example... As soon as Delly entered the game yesterday, he drew an offensive foul on Teague. But watch that play. Delly did NOTHING basketball-legit. He just annoyed him. Bumped him, in the backcourt, when Teague didn't have the ball, for no reason. Teague would push him off, Delly would chest-bump him again. Went on like that for maybe 2-3 times, then Teague shoved Delly off. Bam. Offensive foul.

Was it an offensive foul? Yes. Can't/shouldn't push a player off you like that. But don't tell me Delly was playing good D and not committing fouls by purposefully bumping Teague.

Prior to seeing this thread, my thought on Delly was not that he was dirty, but his sole purpose of being on the court is to agitate the other team. And I hate that those players are allowed, and refs look the other way.

I have NEVER been agitated by another player that was playing legit basketball. And I've probably played more ball than most people on this forum, considering my age. Never.

Now, that's not to say that Horford was righteous and correct in elbowing Delly. But can the refs, at least once, call a foul on the agitation? Look the other way for the expected and understood and realistic retaliation? The "T" was a good start. But that's not basketball. Delly doesn't play basketball. And that's why I don't like him.

That said, I've rooted for Rodman, Noah, Cartwright, Oakley, and a host of other "dirty" players. I didn't like them, but I root for them. I had no problem admitting they were dirty. I had no problem admitting I didn't like them. And I had no problem cheering for them because they were on my team.

I can see plow and Blaze's points. Hell, I even acknowledged my team had what we call a 'dirty player'...but seriously? Calling fouls for agitation?

http://i.imgur.com/Sz67FGK.jpg

[kshutts1]

I can see plow and Blaze's points. Hell, I even acknowledged my team had what we call a 'dirty player'...but seriously? Calling fouls for agitation?


Operating under the premise that nothing will agitate a player that's not illegal in basketball? Yes.

Those bumps were not legal. Just allowed for some silly reason. Rodman's actions with Karl in an earlier gif were not legal.

[kshutts1]

Maybe I'm being irrational... but I hate watching stuff like that.

I hate watching players goad another player... have the expected, understood, totally plausible reaction.. and then have said reaction earn that player an appropriate punishment, while the deeds of the agitator are left unpunished, unacknowledged.

Just so frustrating from a competitor's standpoint. Just like flopping, it's not basketball, it's not competition. It's just... cheating. And wrong.

[plowking]

First of all....

It has everything to do with that. Did you fail to note the many examples cited of fans with emotional ties to the people in question?

People like you are exactly the ones this topic is about.

Second...once you get into the whole "typical american" and american media pretecting the reputation of American athletes thing....im just kinda tuning you out.



Stop picking and choosing what to respond to. I'm still waiting for you to give me a certain part of his game, that he does consistently that is outside of the scope of the game.

Emotional ties? I watch the game and I respect him as a defensive player. End of story. I don't care enough about basketball to like anyone more than for a few things they do on a basketball court.

People like me are exactly the opposite ones to which this thread is geared towards. I told you I think Bogut and Zo are dirty players, and I'm a fan of them. You're just choosing to go along with this narrative that people have created that he gets himself in bad spots based on 3 total plays in his career, where two weren't even his fault.

There is a loose ball? You freaking dive on it. It has nothing to do with him being young like Horford said, or part of some BS brotherhood they talk about. He dived head first for a loose ball and someone got injured. Big f*cking deal. He didn't think about the brotherhood in that split second. Oh no.
Another play he gets pulled down and elbowed. The hell for?

The point is, we don't have this conversation if Horford doesn't react. Which he shouldn't have, because nothing happened.

You keep ignoring that though.

[plowking]

Maybe I'm being irrational... but I hate watching stuff like that.

I hate watching players goad another player... have the expected, understood, totally plausible reaction.. and then have said reaction earn that player an appropriate punishment, while the deeds of the agitator are left unpunished, unacknowledged.

Just so frustrating from a competitor's standpoint. Just like flopping, it's not basketball, it's not competition. It's just... cheating. And wrong.

So is Teague saying "I'll beat your ass" part of the game?

Which part was agitation on Delly's behalf in the Horford play. I missed that bit. Was it where he got arm locked? Or dragged down? Or elbowed in the face?

Seriously? Which bit made Horford decide to grab Delly and pull him down?

[CeltsGarlic]

I hate him ever since that fall on Korvers legs

[ILLsmak]

Depends on the extent of dirty. Like I said before, I've been in scuffles with people in bball. A lot of guys who are just physical are deemed dirty, but cheap shotting, ball punching, sticking your leg under people, punching them on follow throughs, and Delly's sonic the hedgehog shit is just too much.

I mean, it depends on many things... a lot about how we were raised in a bball environment. Like I learned if you had your head too close and someone pivoted and caught you with an elbow, it was fair game. So I know to avoid that.

It also depends on your sense of justice. I believe I have a pretty strong sense of right and wrong. I cannot 'root' for a player who is dirty.

As for Shaq, yeah he popped some people with some dirty elbows. haha. I guess since so many bigs have always done that, I never was too bothered by it.

But the first time I saw CP punch someone in the nuts I was like o word. Never could be a fan. I mean, there are many ways to get an advantage, but shit like that to me is just psychopathic. It undermines the sport.

-Smak

[Kobe_6/8]

In the 90's it was alpha to be dirty because of the old rules/much more big men. Being dirty in the Harden-flop era of today is frowned upon.

[SCdac]

Bowen is tame compared to the guys I grew up watching and even some in the past 15 years. He started literally 500 games without being suspended. That's not defending his tactics and gritty stradle-the-line defense, which was dirty but hardly the worst, that's merely putting it in perspective... As much as some players are dirty, aren't some players just primadonnas and whiny bitches?

[Alamо]

The league needs dirty players. Idk why people get so defensive about it. Delly is great asset to this Cavs team right now. It's not like it's cheating, it's just a great tactic to get inside people's heads, and it works.

[Alamо]

http://i.imgur.com/b1Byw8R.jpg