has anyone that supports Bernie Sanders here taken an economics class? even just one?

[ThemBombs]

if evidently not,

if you vote for him, you are most likely the same kind of person who would become a hundred thousand dollars in debt and then wonder why the hell no one wants to lend you anymore money when you are about to lose your home, your car, your job, and most likely your family after not even utilizing the most basic of common sense.

how do you people think things get paid for? with pixie dust and unicorn shit?
if Sanders is elected expected a sovereign debt default within two years of his election, followed by the total bankruptcy and economic collapse of the United States and then the rest of the world.

but if the majority of voters are big enough morons to vote for this radical leftist then this country will get exactly what it deserves.

[Lensanity]

I plan to vote for him even though I disagree with $15 minimum wage. Overall, his economic plans aren't as bad as you make them out to be though.

[Jailblazers7]

Dude won't even come close to making it out of the primaries. What's the point of getting all worked up about him? He's basically the Democratic version of Ron Paul.

[97 bulls]

I plan to vote for him even though I disagree with $15 minimum wage. Overall, his economic plans aren't as bad as you make them out to be though.
Whats there to disagree with? All that extra money does is stimilate the economy. You think those people are gonna take their money and hoard it??????

[Lensanity]

Dude won't even come close to making it out of the primaries. What's the point of getting all worked up about him? He's basically the Democratic version of Ron Paul.


I'm a Bernie supporter and this is probably true

[ThemBombs]

Whats there to disagree with? All that extra money does is stimilate the economy. You think those people are gonna take their money and hoard it??????
yeah? how many people would lose their jobs if that ever got enacted? how many businesses would shut their doors? do you even understand the effects of minimum wage? you're a great example of a liberal living in socialist la-la land.

http://www.alec.org/publications/minimum-wage/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2014/12/25/minimum-wage-rises-dont-help-the-poor-so-why-raise-the-minium-wage/

[97 bulls]

yeah? how many people would lose their jobs if that ever got enacted? how many businesses would shut their doors? do you even understand the effects of minimum wage? you're a great example of a liberal living in socialist la-la land.

http://www.alec.org/publications/minimum-wage/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2014/12/25/minimum-wage-rises-dont-help-the-poor-so-why-raise-the-minium-wage/
Totally dismissed my question and point. What do you think the Mcdonalds workers (for example) are gonna do with the extra money????? Please answer this question.

[ThemBombs]

Totally dismissed my question and point. What do you think the Mcdonalds workers (for example) are gonna do with the extra money????? Please answer this question.
even if they spend it all the damage done to the national economy would far outweigh the potential benefits. how are these people gonna spend their money when most of them won't even be able to get hired in the first place? you genuinely think the government sponsored unemployment rate would remain at 5.5%? even that number would look very bad with a $15 minimum wage. and if you're one of those people who genuinely believes someone flipping burgers at McD's deserves to earn $15/hour...

https://connoruky.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/mime-attachment.jpg

if they want to get paid more, than they should seek an education and earn these higher paying jobs. McJobs are not meant to sustain a household. you can't just strap on a job helmet, squeeze down into a job cannon, and fire off into job land where jobs grow on jobbies.

[97 bulls]

even if they spend it all the damage done to the national economy would far outweigh the potential benefits. how are these people gonna spend their money when most of them won't even be able to get hired in the first place?
I never understood this reasoning. Because what you essentially saying is that businesses hire to help the community (and this is an.extremely generous assessment). When they hire for only one reason. NEED. If you pay people a decent wage, theyre gonna support you more. If you get more business wouldw that necessitate more help? Or at the least why would mean layoffs? To put it simply. We both agree that revenues would improve. So why would it hurt businesses????


you genuinely think the government sponsored unemployment rate would remain at 5.5%? even that number would look very bad with a $15 minimum wage. and if you're one of those people who genuinely believes someone flipping burgers at McD's deserves to earn $15/hour...

https://connoruky.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/mime-attachment.jpg

if they want to get paid more, than they should seek an education and earn these higher paying jobs. McJobs are not meant to sustain a household. you can't just strap on a job helmet, squeeze down into a job cannon, and fire off into job land where jobs grow on jobbies.
It's not a matter of who is worth more or whether or not a McDonald's employee is worth $15. Its a matter of having a fair wage.

[raiderfan19]

I never understood this reasoning. Because what you essentially saying is that businesses hire to help the community (and this is an.extremely generous assessment). When they hire for only one reason. NEED. If you pay people a decent wage, theyre gonna support you more. If you get more business wouldw that necessitate more help? Or at the least why would mean layoffs? To put it simply. We both agree that revenues would improve. So why would it hurt businesses????


It's not a matter of who is worth more or whether or not a McDonald's employee is worth $15. Its a matter of having a fair wage.
A fair wage is what the market will support. Creating an arbitrary minimum doesn't make something fair.

And increasing revenue only helps if you increase it by as much as costs go up. For instance, say labor is I don't know 50% of the cost of production. A value meal costs $6.00 or so. So you little more than double the labor portion of production cost. So say the $3.00 labor portion now becomes 650. You now have to pay. $9.50 for a happy meal(and this ignores that meals at places like whataburger are already $8. You really think you are selling the same amount of happy meals at $9.50 that you sell at $6? You aren't.

[iamgine]

Are sergeants with 2 years experience really only paid that much annually?

I assume it's because they have a lot of down time?

[97 bulls]

A fair wage is what the market will support. Creating an arbitrary minimum doesn't make something fair.


And increasing revenue only helps if you increase it by as much as costs go up. For instance, say labor is I don't know 50% of the cost of production. A value meal costs $6.00 or so. So you little more than double the labor portion of production cost. So say the $3.00 labor portion now becomes 650. You now have to pay. $9.50 for a happy meal(and this ignores that meals at places like whataburger are already $8. You really think you are selling the same amount of happy meals at $9.50 that you sell at $6? You aren't.
Why do they have to raise prices? Mceonalds CEO makes over $9000 an hour. Is that really necessary? According to Bloomberg, thats 150 times more than what the CEO made 20 years ago.

[97 bulls]

Im sorry 580 times more than what the CEO made 20 years ago.


Twenty years ago, when Johnson first started at McDonald's, the CEO's compensation was about 230 times that of a full-time worker paid the federal minimum wage. The*$8.75 million*that Thompson's predecessor as CEO, Skinner, made last year was 580 times, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.

Please explain this. Or give me your input

[raiderfan19]

Why do they have to raise prices? Mceonalds CEO makes over $9000 an hour. Is that really necessary? According to Bloomberg, thats 150 times more than what the CEO made 20 years ago.
Where do you think the money comes from otherwise to pay for the increase in wages? You think they are just going to take the raises out of their profits?

[RoseCity07]

Okay random guy on the internet that knows more than Bernie Sanders.

[RoseCity07]

even if they spend it all the damage done to the national economy would far outweigh the potential benefits. how are these people gonna spend their money when most of them won't even be able to get hired in the first place? you genuinely think the government sponsored unemployment rate would remain at 5.5%? even that number would look very bad with a $15 minimum wage. and if you're one of those people who genuinely believes someone flipping burgers at McD's deserves to earn $15/hour...

https://connoruky.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/mime-attachment.jpg

if they want to get paid more, than they should seek an education and earn these higher paying jobs. McJobs are not meant to sustain a household. you can't just strap on a job helmet, squeeze down into a job cannon, and fire off into job land where jobs grow on jobbies.

This is such a fail...:roll: :roll:

The soldiers are the burger flippers when they get back home from a tour.:facepalm

[raiderfan19]

It doesn't matter who is what. Raising the minimum wage has always and will always hurt people who earn the minimum wage the most.

[iamgine]

We always talking about raising the minimum wage...Why not lowering it to $3-$5/hr instead? That way there'll be much less illegal immigrants and more Americans employed.

[aj1987]

$15 per hour? That's ****ing retarded. What about the prices going up? How many small business owners can afford to pay $15 per hour? Idiocy. :facepalm


I never understood this reasoning. Because what you essentially saying is that businesses hire to help the community (and this is an.extremely generous assessment). When they hire for only one reason. NEED. If you pay people a decent wage, theyre gonna support you more. If you get more business wouldw that necessitate more help? Or at the least why would mean layoffs? To put it simply. We both agree that revenues would improve. So why would it hurt businesses????


It's not a matter of who is worth more or whether or not a McDonald's employee is worth $15. Its a matter of having a fair wage.
How many small business owners can afford to pay $15/hr?

[Dresta]

Whats there to disagree with? All that extra money does is stimilate the economy. You think those people are gonna take their money and hoard it??????
Consuming things produced in other countries doesn't 'stimulate the economy' - consumption does not and never has been the driver of economic growth, and only an economic illiterate would think otherwise.

Savings are the backbone of a strong, growing economy (actual growth not simply GDP inflation), not consumption. Spending money you don't have does not beget prosperity; in what world does such utter nonsense make sense? The only way to maintain a $15 minimum wage without massive increases in unemployment (particularly minority and youth unemployment) would be to print money until the increase had been inflated away (as has already been done, multiple times, and guess what? It hasn't made the poor any richer).

edit: and in the meantime, expect more of this:

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2015/05-overflow/20150524_mcd_0.jpg

Bag packers are already being shafted (and were long ago in minimum wage loving Europe).

[Dresta]

It's not a matter of who is worth more or whether or not a McDonald's employee is worth $15. Its a matter of having a fair wage.
This has to be my favourite bit of utterly vacuous rhetoric peddled by the warriors for justice.

If you can define a 'fair wage' by any non-arbitrary and objective means, then by all means, go right ahead. But I think you'll find that everyone has a different idea of fairness. Honestly, if i want to take a job from someone, i don't see what business it is of the governments how much they pay me. Most young kids these days can't even get a job without working for free at least once (as a direct result of minimum wage legislation) - is this 'fair'?

:roll:

[dunksby]

Those burger flippers wouldn't even be able to afford them burgers if their bosses had to pay them 15 dollars an hour.

[NumberSix]

It's not a matter of who is worth more or whether or not a McDonald's employee is worth $15. Its a matter of having a fair wage.
I agree.

A "fair wage" is not some number that some political party arbitrarily plucks out of the air for the purposes of pandering for voting blocks.

The only objectively fair way to decide what constitutes a "fair wage" is to let the market decide. The government doesn't decide the value of a product or a service. You do, along with your fellow citizens. People decide what they want and what amount of their money they're willing to pay for it.

[Patrick Chewing]

Okay random guy on the internet that knows more than Bernie Sanders.


Bernie Sanders doesn't even know what Bernie Sanders is talking about. The guy is crazy.

http://www.ihatethemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/bernie-sanders1-e1311818052741.jpg


Looks like Doc Brown.

[97 bulls]

Where do you think the money comes from otherwise to pay for the increase in wages? You think they are just going to take the raises out of their profits?
What do you mean "where does the money come from"? Ths is the problem with people carrying this mindset. You act like business owners just give jobs out of the kindness of their heart.

Without the workers, McDonald's is nothing.

[NumberSix]

What do you mean "where does the money come from"? Ths is the problem with people carrying this mindset. You act like business owners just give jobs out of the kindness of their heart.

Without the workers, McDonald's is nothing.
No, without customers, McDonald's is nothing.

Where there is money to be made, a business will pay workers whatever it takes to keep business going. Apparently, what it takes in the case of mcdonalds is about $8.

In order for something to be fair, both parties have to have free will. If McDonalds feels like $8 is fair and people who agree to do the job think $8 is fair...... Then it's fair. Who are you to interfere in their agreement?

If somebody doesn't think $8 is fair, they are free to negotiate for more or decline altogether.

The foundation of fair trade is that all parties have free will. Nobody is forced to do anything against their will.

[97 bulls]

This has to be my favourite bit of utterly vacuous rhetoric peddled by the warriors for justice.

If you can define a 'fair wage' by any non-arbitrary and objective means, then by all means, go right ahead. But I think you'll find that everyone has a different idea of fairness. Honestly, if i want to take a job from someone, i don't see what business it is of the governments how much they pay me. Most young kids these days can't even get a job without working for free at least once (as a direct result of minimum wage legislation) - is this 'fair'?

:roll:
When I say "fair" I mean the company as a whole sharing the prophets. Hell I worked at Mcdonalds more 20 years ago. I believe minimum wage was $5.25. Minimum wage is now $9.00 an hour.

Mcdonalds Ceo makes 350 times what the CEO made 20 years ago. Thats fair?????

[Dresta]

What do you mean "where does the money come from"? Ths is the problem with people carrying this mindset. You act like business owners just give jobs out of the kindness of their heart.

Without the workers, McDonald's is nothing.
:roll:

Yeah, they're only some of the most replaceable people on the planet, and yet are apparently indispensable. Many of them could be replaced by automatons, and if people like you keep pushing up labour costs, then they will be.

[97 bulls]

No, without customers, McDonald's is nothing.
What???? I've been to McDonald's millions of times. I aint never had to go back there and make my own burger.


Where there is money to be made, a business will pay workers whatever it takes to keep business going. Apparently, what it takes in the case of mcdonalds is about $8.
I agree.


In order for something to be fair, both parties have to have free will. If McDonalds feels like $8 is fair and people who agree to do the job think $8 is fair...... Then it's fair. Who are you to interfere in their agreement?

If somebody doesn't think $8 is fair, they are free to negotiate for more or decline altogether.

The foundation of fair trade is that all parties have free will. Nobody is forced to do anything against their will.
Lol. This is funny. We have a psuedo free will situation. All businesses have to abide by regulations created by the government. Which im sure you agree with. But you dont want the government regulating pay??????

[97 bulls]

:roll:

Yeah, they're only some of the most replaceable people on the planet, and yet are apparently indispensable. Many of them could be replaced by automatons, and if people like you keep pushing up labour costs, then they will be.
And you know what their replacements would be called?????? WORKERS. Those workers won't or arent needed, but WORKERS are. Whoever they may be.

[rufuspaul]

Are sergeants with 2 years experience really only paid that much annually?

I assume it's because they have a lot of down time?


I'm not sure if those figures are correct but assuming they are, they don't factor in military benefits for both soldiers and their dependents: free housing, free medical care, retirement pension, hazardous duty pay (when deployed).

[Jailblazers7]

A fair wage is what the market will support. Creating an arbitrary minimum doesn't make something fair.

And increasing revenue only helps if you increase it by as much as costs go up. For instance, say labor is I don't know 50% of the cost of production. A value meal costs $6.00 or so. So you little more than double the labor portion of production cost. So say the $3.00 labor portion now becomes 650. You now have to pay. $9.50 for a happy meal(and this ignores that meals at places like whataburger are already $8. You really think you are selling the same amount of happy meals at $9.50 that you sell at $6? You aren't.

Wouldn't the labor portion in that scenario increase to $4.50 and not $6.50? Also, I doubt they would pass the entire additional cost onto customers because, like you said, sales would take too large of a hit. It would eat into their margins, which I'm guessing aren't huge considering McDonald's whole low-cost strategy.

But McDonald's sales are already trending downward because people just don't like their food as much these days. They are already making some strategy changes to improve ingredients. However, part of their new strategy is kiosks for orders and apparently online ordering so they are already preparing to cut the in-store workforce.

http://www.businessinsider.com/mcdonalds-new-ceo-strategy-2015-3

[Take Your Lumps]

I love it. Somehow it's the worker's fault for working there because they're shit jobs with shit pay.

Well what the ****, you can't have it both ways. This notion that only children and college students should be working at these places is completely out of touch with reality. You can't have Walmart, McDonalds, etc. expanding exponentially and not expect an increasing number of grown ass adults with mouths to feed working there.

Job creators, right? Well those are the jobs. They're shit jobs and they pay shit. I don't have an entry-level occupation but this idea that people who work a minimum wage job in the United States of America shouldn't be entitled to a living wage is ridiculous. Priorities, people.


if they want to get paid more, than they should seek an education and earn these higher paying jobs. McJobs are not meant to sustain a household. you can't just strap on a job helmet, squeeze down into a job cannon, and fire off into job land where jobs grow on jobbies.

If these jobs aren't meant to sustain a household then perhaps the jobs these companies create aren't meant to sustain a modern economy.

[NumberSix]

What???? I've been to McDonald's millions of times. I aint never had to go back there and make my own burger.


I agree.


Lol. This is funny. We have a psuedo free will situation. All businesses have to abide by regulations created by the government. Which im sure you agree with.
Guess again.


But you dont want the government regulating pay??????
I obviously don't.

So, here is a little scenario to display your ethics on the situation.



An old man has a nice house with a nice lawn. A guy in the neighbourhood offers to mow his lawn for a price. They negotiate and eventually agree on $6.

The old man is willing to pay $6 dollars for this service and the guy is willing to do it for $6. Both parties agree to the terms. It is by definition, a fair deal. Not because you say so or because I say so. Because THEY say so. They are the only people who can decide what they think is fair for themselves.

A nosey neighbour runs in between both of them and says the HE doesn't think $6 is a fair deal. He demands that they do a deal on terms of HIS choosing. The old man and the guy are puzzled and say "maybe you should mind your own business. We are fully capable of making our own deals". The nosey neighbour insists that they can only complete the transaction if they abide by what HE thinks is a fair deal.


Like I said, here are your ethics. You are in favor of them being forced to abide by what the nosey neighbour thinks is a fair deal. I think they should be able to decide what deal is fair without some nosey douche interfering.

[Nanners]

yeah? how many people would lose their jobs if that ever got enacted? how many businesses would shut their doors? do you even understand the effects of minimum wage? you're a great example of a liberal living in socialist la-la land.

http://www.alec.org/publications/minimum-wage/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2014/12/25/minimum-wage-rises-dont-help-the-poor-so-why-raise-the-minium-wage/

if alec is against raising the minimum wage that means it is almost certainly a good idea.

seattle is raising their minimum wage to $15 over the next few years, so we will all get to see if these prophecies of economic doom come true.

[raiderfan19]

Wouldn't the labor portion in that scenario increase to $4.50 and not $6.50? Also, I doubt they would pass the entire additional cost onto customers because, like you said, sales would take too large of a hit. It would eat into their margins, which I'm guessing aren't huge considering McDonald's whole low-cost strategy.

But McDonald's sales are already trending downward because people just don't like their food as much these days. They are already making some strategy changes to improve ingredients. However, part of their new strategy is kiosks for orders and apparently online ordering so they are already preparing to cut the in-store workforce.

http://www.businessinsider.com/mcdonalds-new-ceo-strategy-2015-3
15 would be a little more than doubling the minimum wage now right? Was saying doubling the minimum wage, not increasing by 50%


As for 97 bulls, no offense but this is one of the dumbest arguments Iv ever seen.

[97 bulls]

It doesn't matter who is what. Raising the minimum wage has always and will always hurt people who earn the minimum wage the most.
I don't see hiw raising the minimum wage can burt any more than raising the wage of a millionare 350 times what it was 20 years ago.

[raiderfan19]

I don't see hiw raising the minimum wage can burt any more than raising the wage of a millionare 350 times what it was 20 years ago.
Because raising the minimum wage makes all cheap goods go up in cost because those are generally the things created through minimum wage labor. It also leads to quite a few more people being unemployed.

And if you really don't understand that increasing the cost to a corporation to produce something doesn't also increase the price that corporation will charge for that something you don't need to have economics discussions with anyone other than your teacher when you go to your economics class.

[raiderfan19]

I don't see hiw raising the minimum wage can burt any more than raising the wage of a millionare 350 times what it was 20 years ago.
For the record I do agree CEOs are way overpaid.

[NumberSix]

Because raising the minimum wage makes all cheap goods go up in cost because those are generally the things created through minimum wage labor. It also leads to quite a few more people being unemployed.

And if you really don't understand that increasing the cost to a corporation to produce something doesn't also increase the price that corporation will charge for that something you don't need to have economics discussions with anyone other than your teacher when you go to your economics class.
This.

People have a little more money, and the cost of everything slightly increased to go along with it. Nothing changed. We've just changed the numbers.

[TheSilentKiller]

I love when people take absurdly complex issues and try to condense it into two sentences as if it is a valid representation of a view point.

[Jailblazers7]

15 would be a little more than doubling the minimum wage now right? Was saying doubling the minimum wage, not increasing by 50%


As for 97 bulls, no offense but this is one of the dumbest arguments Iv ever seen.

oh ok, gotcha lol. But to be fair a doubling of the min wage wouldn't result in that large of a price increase. I'm assuming that McDonald's has to price in all of the corporate overhead stuff into their prices like corporate salaries, marketing, etc. They'd def feel the effects of the increase but it's not like their prices would skyrocket as a result.

[raiderfan19]

Eh I think they would. Now whether that skyrocketing would truthfully be due to the minimum wage increase or because they thought they could use it as a justification is a different issue but I definitely think prices would go way up.

And that was based on obviously a seriously faulty assumption(I have no idea what mcdonalds actual labor cost per burger/happy meal produced is)

[Jailblazers7]

Eh I think they would. Now whether that skyrocketing would truthfully be due to the minimum wage increase or because they thought they could use it as a justification is a different issue but I definitely think prices would go way up.

And that was based on obviously a seriously faulty assumption(I have no idea what mcdonalds actual labor cost per burger/happy meal produced is)

Yeah, just wanted to point out that min wage labor is only 1 part of labor costs for McDonald's. They are the final step of the process and by far the cheapest part of their whole labor force.

I really doubt McDonald's could justify a big increase to be honest. McDonald's sales have been shitty the past two years already and a big price increase would only amplify that.

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/MK-CR285_MCDONA_9U_20141208130906.jpg

Not that any of this really has anything to do with the larger debate. But I just get sidetracked by this kind of stuff because I find it more interesting.

[97 bulls]

Because raising the minimum wage makes all cheap goods go up in cost because those are generally the things created through minimum wage labor. It also leads to quite a few more people being unemployed.

And if you really don't understand that increasing the cost to a corporation to produce something doesn't also increase the price that corporation will charge for that something you don't need to have economics discussions with anyone other than your teacher when you go to your economics class.
You're missing my point. Something is most definitely gonna take a hit. Im saying why can't it be the CEO? The one that making 350 times more money than 20 years ago.

[97 bulls]

And understand, its not just McDonald's. Its all those entry level type jobs. Walmart, Target, Burger King etc. These CEOs are making money hand over fist. Why not take care of the people making you this money. Whats wrong with being rich as opposed to filthy rich?

[97 bulls]

And one more thing. A poster wrote that jobs like McDonald's were never meant to be career jobs. And you know what, thats true. But you know whose fault it is that you now have mostly adults working there? McDonald's and the like. Because some time ago, they thought it was smart to hire adults to do this type of work over kids in school. Why? Because they were more fkexible. They could work work them more hours, dont have to contend with school and the regulations that cone with hiring a minor. They dug their own grave.

[Norcaliblunt]

I love how people who are probably sitting in cubicles working for some insurance company call center act like they are far superior to someone who makes them their food. Lol.

Economics might just be the most corrupt of all academia.

[Lakers Legend#32]

I bet 97 Bulls would have no problem voting for Rick (Frothy) Santorum.

[DukeDelonte13]

funny how people that are so anti raising minimum wage are also very anti welfare.

Companies should pay enough to full time workers that they don't need to go on government assistance programs. Tax payers shouldn't be helping McDonald's increase their margins.

[Dresta]

funny how people that are so anti raising minimum wage are also very anti welfare.

Companies should pay enough to full time workers that they don't need to go on government assistance programs. Tax payers shouldn't be helping McDonald's increase their margins.
That would be because the minimum wage law is a form of welfare.

:confusedshrug:

[oarabbus]

Whats there to disagree with? All that extra money does is stimilate the economy. You think those people are gonna take their money and hoard it??????


Lol yeah right the $15 min wage makes no sense.

Yeah it makes sense IN NEW YORK or SF, but nowhere else. There are actual skilled workers who had to learn a trade, who make $20/hr.

A $15 minimum wage will, in the best case scenario, result in rampant inflation as all the people who used to be making $20, $25 an hour see their salaries rise.

[DukeDelonte13]

That would be because the minimum wage law is a form of welfare.

:confusedshrug:


A private entity paying money that is not derived in any way shape or form from the tax paying public is now a form of welfare. Brilliant analysis.


Setting a standard that companies have to adhere to to do business in a given place is not welfare.

[KevinNYC]

I'm not sure if those figures are correct but assuming they are, they don't factor in military benefits for both soldiers and their dependents: free housing, free medical care, retirement pension, hazardous duty pay (when deployed).
Free food too. Extra duty pay for being in another country like Germany where you aren't at war.

An E3 commented about this silly comparison on Reddit.
http://www.reddit.com/r/rant/comments/2golau/in_response_to_the_fact_that_fast_food_works_dont/

[NumberSix]

funny how people that are so anti raising minimum wage are also very anti welfare.
You say that as if it's a contradiction.


Companies should pay enough to full time workers that they don't need to go on government assistance programs. Tax payers shouldn't be helping McDonald's increase their margins.
It's because tax payers pay McDonalds employees that McDonalds can pay low wages.

The current package at McDonalds is... Minimum wage + government benefits.

If you subtract the government benefits part from that equation, a lot less people will be willing to work for the package McDonalds is offering. What happens if people aren't willing to work for what McDonalds is offerining? McDonalds has to offer more.

Tax payer money shouldn't be subsidizing the McDonalds workforce.

[aj1987]

I don't see hiw raising the minimum wage can burt any more than raising the wage of a millionare 350 times what it was 20 years ago.
ONE person, dude. That's the guy runs the company and makes sure that it turns a profit.

We used to own a Subway in NJ. We lost ~60K when we sold it. If the minimum wage was $15, we wouldn't have even bought that place. Paying $15 to a dude who flips burgers is absolutely ridiculous. We still keep investing in our area, but we wouldn't even go close if the minimum wage was $15.

[aj1987]

:rolleyes: Because that's equivalent to the people running Walmart or McDonalds.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Try reading my post again. After that, re-read it.

[97 bulls]

Lol yeah right the $15 min wage makes no sense.

Yeah it makes sense IN NEW YORK or SF, but nowhere else. There are actual skilled workers who had to learn a trade, who make $20/hr.

A $15 minimum wage will, in the best case scenario, result in rampant inflation as all the people who used to be making $20, $25 an hour see their salaries rise.
Is $15 Federal? I know in Calofornia, its being bandied about but is that across the country? And I know McDonald's employees are pushing for it.

[97 bulls]

ONE person, dude. That's the guy runs the company and makes sure that it turns a profit.
Lol. A poster just put up a graph showing that McDonald's is down in profit. But yet the CEO got a 69% raise this year. Please explain this.



We used to own a Subway in NJ. We lost ~60K when we sold it. If the minimum wage was $15, we wouldn't have even bought that place. Paying $15 to a dude who flips burgers is absolutely ridiculous. We still keep investing in our area, but we wouldn't even go close if the minimum wage was $15.
Perhaps it was in a bad location.

[NumberSix]

Is $15 Federal? I know in Calofornia, its being bandied about but is that across the country? And I know McDonald's employees are pushing for it.
The $15 thing is Los Angeles. But it also happens allow to unionized jobs to be paid less. Isn't that convenient.

[aj1987]

Lol. A poster just put up a graph showing that McDonald's is down in profit. But yet the CEO got a 69% raise this year. Please explain this.
Down 5 points since the new CEO stepped in a month ago. Was at ~100 points ~10 days ago, BTW. You honestly think that flipping a burger and running a multi-billion empire is the same?


Perhaps it was in a bad location.
Sure. Even if we were making profit of 10K a month, we wouldn't have paid out employees $15/hr. That's a LOT of money for making a sub.

[97 bulls]

Down 5 points since the new CEO stepped in a month ago. Was at ~100 points ~10 days ago, BTW. You honestly think that flipping a burger and running a multi-billion empire is the same?
What does this have to do with him getting a 69 percent raise? If anything, it shows that he shouldn't have got one.


Sure. Even if we were making profit of 10K a month, we wouldn't have paid out employees $15/hr. That's a LOT of money for making a sub.
Thats your prerogative. My point centers around the success of a company and its payroll. Which really has nothing to do with whether or not the minimum wage should be raised or not. And if that law passes in Cali, then youre gonna have to do one of two things.

1. Pay your employees the money.

2. Layoff your empoyees and do all the work yourself.

If you have a lucrative business, I see no reason why you wouldn't just pay the money. Your gonna get it back in that the community is gonna patronize your business more because they'll have more money to spend.

[oarabbus]

Is $15 Federal? I know in Calofornia, its being bandied about but is that across the country? And I know McDonald's employees are pushing for it.


It's specifically in the metropolitan areas - LA, and San Francisco. Actually the cost of living in SF is MUCH higher than LA (but LA is much bigger). A $15 min wage would BREAK California, much less the entire nation. IMO it doesn't make sense to have a $15 min wage beyond a city jurisdiction, or maybe a small county.

Anyway to answer your point, there has been a push recently for a federal $15/hr min wage. Not necessarily by Sanders but it is a terrible idea.

[97 bulls]

It's specifically in the metropolitan areas - LA, and San Francisco. Actually the cost of living in SF is MUCH higher than LA (but LA is much bigger). A $15 min wage would BREAK California, much less the entire nation. IMO it doesn't make sense to have a $15 min wage beyond a city jurisdiction, or maybe a small county.
I still don't see how. I mean, who pattonizes small businesses? It would be the same people getting the raise. All theyd be doing is giving it back. Because they will be buying more clothes, going out more (movies etc), spending more on food. Theyre not gonna take it and make long term decisions with it.


Look at it this way. In my life, I always had this mindset that if I can make a little bit more money, ill be ok. When I was making 5.25, I wished I could make 8, when I got to 8 I said to myself if I coukd just make $12 an hour ill be able to do everything I need to do etc. But somehow, I always had this mindset that whatever I was making was never enough. Why? Because everytime I got a raise, I went out and bought a car, or moved to a bigger place or had a kid or made a bunch of small purchases. My wife just got a raise. She went out and bought a new Camry.

Again, I ask, what do you think the people are gonna do with the extra money aside from put it back into the.community?

Anyway to answer your point, there has been a push recently for a federal $15/hr min wage. Not necessarily by Sanders but it is a terrible idea.[/QUOTE]

[wakencdukest]

What does this have to do with him getting a 69 percent raise? If anything, it shows that he shouldn't have got one.


Thats your prerogative. My point centers around the success of a company and its payroll. Which really has nothing to do with whether or not the minimum wage should be raised or not. And if that law passes in Cali, then youre gonna have to do one of two things.

1. Pay your employees the money.

2. Layoff your empoyees and do all the work yourself.

If you have a lucrative business, I see no reason why you wouldn't just pay the money. Your gonna get it back in that the community is gonna patronize your business more because they'll have more money to spend.





Option 3. Layoff half your employees and make the remaining do twice as much work and force them to work longer hours. While you're at it, if you're paying that much, you might as well raise your hiring standards and bring in educated people.

[97 bulls]

Option 3. Layoff half your employees and make the remaining do twice as much work and force them to work longer hours. While you're at it, if you're paying that much, you might as well raise your hiring standards and bring in educated people.
Well. The amount of hours greatly depends on what your.employee will be willing to work. And you can only work him 8 hours before he hits overtime. And if you need him to the point that hes working 10-15 hours of overtime, you may as well hire more people.

[Dresta]

A private entity paying money that is not derived in any way shape or form from the tax paying public is now a form of welfare. Brilliant analysis.


Setting a standard that companies have to adhere to to do business in a given place is not welfare.
How is it not derived from the tax-paying public? Where exactly do you think the money comes from? It is clearly 'derived from the tax paying public' as every bit of the money in an economy must be, through increased unemployment and higher prices (even if it is paid from reduced corporate profits this is still money taken from some individuals and given to others - again, the definition of welfare). But yeah, if a private business decided to pay higher wages on their own initiative, then it wouldn't be welfare. The government forcing businesses to pay more to their employees is the definition of welfare, just like the government forcing me or you to pay towards the pensions of others, is also a form of welfare (they don't bother to mention that the pension system will have completely collapsed by the time we get old enough to enjoy it). If you can't understand the distinction between being forced to do something and choosing to do it then you must have some kind of degenerative brain damage or something.

It's not my fault you don't even know what welfare means and yet laugh sanctimoniously at other people over some apparent contradiction (and made yourself look rather poorly informed in the process). How tiresome..

:rolleyes:

[aj1987]

What does this have to do with him getting a 69 percent raise? If anything, it shows that he shouldn't have got one.
You need to research a bit more. The dude who got the raise was hired 2 months ago. The graph shows figures from '14. That guy resigned after the 4% decrease.


Thats your prerogative. My point centers around the success of a company and its payroll. Which really has nothing to do with whether or not the minimum wage should be raised or not. And if that law passes in Cali, then youre gonna have to do one of two things.

1. Pay your employees the money.

2. Layoff your empoyees and do all the work yourself.

If you have a lucrative business, I see no reason why you wouldn't just pay the money. Your gonna get it back in that the community is gonna patronize your business more because they'll have more money to spend.
:oldlol:

People are not going to come and eat at my Subway because I hired 4 high school kids. Are you actually being serious?

As wakencdukest said, I'd make them work their asses off, if I'm paying $15/hr. Make 2 do the work of 4.

[97 bulls]

How is it not derived from the tax-paying public? Where exactly do you think the money comes from? It is clearly 'derived from the tax paying public' as every bit of the money in an economy must be, through increased unemployment and higher prices (even if it is paid from reduced corporate profits this is still money taken from some individuals and given to others - again, the definition of welfare). But yeah, if a private business decided to pay higher wages on their own initiative, then it wouldn't be welfare. The government forcing businesses to pay more to their employees is the definition of welfare, just like the government forcing me or you to pay towards the pensions of others, is also a form of welfare (they don't bother to mention that the pension system will have completely collapsed by the time we get old enough to enjoy it). If you can't understand the distinction between being forced to do something and choosing to do it then you must have some kind of degenerative brain damage or something.

It's not my fault you don't even know what welfare means and yet laugh sanctimoniously at other people over some apparent contradiction (and made yourself look rather poorly informed in the process). How tiresome..

:rolleyes:
So by your definition, our Military and Police force are on welfare. Am I right?

[97 bulls]

:oldlol:

People are not going to come and eat at my Subway because I hired 4 high school kids. Are you actually being serious?

As wakencdukest said, I'd make them work their asses off, if I'm paying $15/hr. Make 2 do the work of 4.
What are you talking about AJ? How are you gonna make a person do the work of two people and still run an effective and efficient business? You gonna have one guy make the sandwiches, run the register, clean the dining area, replenish the food, etc?????? What customer is gonna wait around for that???


Again you're acting like businesses just give out jobs out of the kindness of their heart. They only hire out of necessity. Or if they dont want to do the work themselves.

[aj1987]

What are you talking about AJ? How are you gonna make a person do the work of two people and still run an effective and efficient business? You gonna have one guy make the sandwiches, run the register, clean the dining area, replenish the food, etc?????? What customer is gonna wait around for that???
2 guys. So basically this new min wage is going to **** over small business owners.

Again, $15/hr to clean the floors and flip burgers? :facepalm


Again you're acting like businesses just give out jobs out of the kindness of their heart. They only hire out of necessity. Or if they dont want to do the work themselves.
Businesses are in place to turn a profit. When I'm investing a couple 100K in a business, I expect to make a good profit. If they changed the min wage when I owned the Subway, that would've ****ed me over.

[Dresta]

So by your definition, our Military and Police force are on welfare. Am I right?
No, and it wasn't 'my' definition: it was the guy i quoted who brought up the 'tax paying public' not me.

Welfare aims at the redistribution of wealth, the military and police force are necessary public functions for self-defense, deterrence, and the enforcement of the law. Do you seriously not see the difference between paying someone to perform a job that is near-unanimously desired by the general public, and making it illegal for me to work for $8 an hour if i so choose (not to mention the many, many illegal immigrants who will now be undercutting me)?

Artificially inflating the wages of the least skilled workers is the definition of welfare. No number of pedantic quibbles you care to bring up can change that fact. As far as i'm aware the minimum wage has largely just made it necessary for anyone looking for a first job to lie on their CV, because minimum wage jobs are no longer available for people lacking experience (i.e. young people entering the labour market).

It also disproportionately hurts young black Americans men, who had unemployment rates equivalent to that of young white American men in the 1950s even, simply because the minimum wage barrier had been inflated away (look at the unemployment rate for this demographic since then, and contrast it with each increase of the federal minimum wage).

[97 bulls]

2 guys. So basically this new min wage is going to **** over small business owners.

Again, $15/hr to clean the floors and flip burgers? :facepalm

Lol. I understand its a menial job. But as I stated earlier, I blame small businesses in the first place for putting themselves in this position. Its like a poster said earlier. These jobs were never intended to be careers for adults. But when these businesses decided it would be smart to stop hiring high school and college kids and start hiring adults, they hurt themselves.


Businesses are in place to turn a profit. When I'm investing a couple 100K in a business, I expect to make a good profit. If they changed the min wage when I owned the Subway, that would've ****ed me over.
I still don't see why a thriving business wouldn't be able to turn a profit. To simplify, if you sale 10 sandwiches an hour, and then with the bump in wage you get more business and it goes to 15 sandwiches, why would that hurt a business. Even more, the consumer is probably gonna buy more expensive stuff on the menu.

[aj1987]

Lol. I understand its a menial job. But as I stated earlier, I blame small businesses in the first place for putting themselves in this position. Its like a poster said earlier. These jobs were never intended to be careers for adults. But when these businesses decided it would be smart to stop hiring high school and college kids and start hiring adults, they hurt themselves.
Oh, so now you're blaming businesses for hiring more competent employees?


I still don't see why a thriving business wouldn't be able to turn a profit. To simplify, if you sale 10 sandwiches an hour, and then with the bump in wage you get more business and it goes to 15 sandwiches, why would that hurt a business. Even more, the consumer is probably gonna buy more expensive stuff on the menu.

Why would the sales go up?

[97 bulls]

I subscribe to Henry Fords theory. If you pay your employees enough to buy your.car, they will buy your car. Or it was something along those lines.

[97 bulls]

That wasnt henry fords theory and raising the minimum wage isnt going to sell many (if any) more mcdonalds.
This is a quote from Mr. Ford himself. And pay attention to the last sentence.


But Ford had an even bigger reason for raising his wages, which he noted in a 1926 book,Today and Tomorrow. It’s as a challenging a statement today as it as 100 years ago.“The owner, the employees, and the buying public are all one and the same, and unless an industry can so manage itself as to keep wages high and prices low it destroys itself, for otherwise it limits the number of its customers. One’s own employees ought to be one’s own best customers.”

[97 bulls]

Oh, so now you're blaming businesses for hiring more competent employees?
Lol. Competent? All throughout this thread youve made it very clear that it doesnt take much competence to "flip burgers". Your being intellectually dishonest.



Why would the sales go up?
I explained why. You'll have more customers buying more expensive sandwiches. Look up the Henry Ford $5 a day wage.

[aj1987]

Lol. Competent? All throughout this thread youve made it very clear that it doesnt take much competence to "flip burgers". Your being intellectually dishonest.
And you're basically penalizing businesses for people being losers? How is that fair?



I explained why. You'll have more customers buying more expensive sandwiches. Look up the Henry Ford $5 a day wage.
That's retarded AF. McDonald's burgers are like $2 each.

[97 bulls]

And you're basically penalizing businesses for people being losers? How is that fair?
What? Your missing the point. Kids don't need to make 15 bucks an hour. Those are adults with families causing the fuss. Now follow me. Job's like McDonald's would rather hire an adult who is free to work any hours fir the same price as opposed to a kid that can only work between 4-10 because theh must go to school. They dug their own grave. And its nit just for thus reason. Less employees mean less medical costs, insurance, training, etc.


That's retarded AF. McDonald's burgers are like $2 each.
Lol. Yeah back in 1990. Or as I said you can get their basic cheeseburger for $2. But they have burgers that can be 5-6 dollars. You were in the sandwich business. What more expensive a steak sandwich or a bolonga sandwich?

[97 bulls]

Two more quotes from Ford.


"increase the buying power of our own people, and they increased the buying power of other people, and so on and on,

[aj1987]

What? Your missing the point. Kids don't need to make 15 bucks an hour. Those are adults with families causing the fuss. Now follow me. Job's like McDonald's would rather hire an adult who is free to work any hours fir the same price as opposed to a kid that can only work between 4-10 because theh must go to school. They dug their own grave. And its nit just for thus reason. Less employees mean less medical costs, insurance, training, etc.
Again, why do they feel like they're entitled to more? If they want to make more money, they should probably look for other jobs. As I said, a LOT of teachers don't make $15/hr. They're the ones who deserve a raise. Not people who hand food in the drive-thru or the person who mops the floors.


Lol. Yeah back in 1990. Or as I said you can get their basic cheeseburger for $2. But they have burgers that can be 5-6 dollars. You were in the sandwich business. What more expensive a steak sandwich or a bolonga sandwich?
Haven't had a burger from McD's in literally forever.

[kNIOKAS]

Uh aj1987 dude you got so many things wrong... What made you to defend the interests of big businesses while not even getting the benefits of this ideology that they are getting? Wake up

[HitandRun Reggie]

Bernie has definitely hurt any chances he had with an essay he wrote when he was 30. The media is having a field day with it today. The feminists won't be happy with him. :lol

[97 bulls]

Again, why do they feel like they're entitled to more?
Because McDonald's is making money hand over fist. Oh and the fact that the CEOs continue to get these huge raises.


If they want to make more money, they should probably look for other jobs.
This is a cop out. My reply to that would be if you dont want to pay adults these wages, why hure them? What kind of human being is ok with putting their workers in a position where theyre whole life has to center around McDonald's but don't want the responsibility for compensating for that kind of dedication. And what I mean by that is that Mcdonald is becoming like a corporation that pays big money to their employees because they ask a lot of their time and ti sacrifice. You can't have it both ways.



I said, a LOT of teachers don't make $15/hr. They're the ones who deserve a raise.
This isnt a debate on how important their job is to our society. Its a debate on what will be the outcome of a $15 dollar minimum wage. Which is what Bernie Sanders wants. McDonald's is just an example.



Not people who hand food in the drive-thru or the person who mops the floors.
Lol. So now they're incompetent again???? Talk about moving the goal post.



Haven't had a burger from McD's in literally forever.
Ok. But you were in the sandwich buss right? I asked you what was more expensive between a steak sandwich and a bolanga sandwich?

[97 bulls]

[QUOTE=HitandRun Reggie]Bernie has definitely hurt any chances he had with an essay he wrote when he was 30. The media is having a field day with it today. The feminists won't be happy with him. :lol

[aj1987]

Because McDonald's is making money hand over fist. Oh and the fact that the CEOs continue to get these huge raises.
So?



This is a cop out. My reply to that would be if you dont want to pay adults these wages, why hure them? What kind of human being is ok with putting their workers in a position where theyre whole life has to center around McDonald's but don't want the responsibility for compensating for that kind of dedication. And what I mean by that is that Mcdonald is becoming like a corporation that pays big money to their employees because they ask a lot of their time and ti sacrifice. You can't have it both ways.
Because they're available. Most HS students Can't work 8 hours a day or more. They certainly can't when they have school. Again, if those "adults" want $15/hr to clean floors and hand me my food, they're just being delusional. Should get real jobs.



Lol. So now they're incompetent again???? Talk about moving the goal post.
I shouldn't have said competence. Availability. That's more accurate.



Ok. But you were in the sandwich buss right? I asked you what was more expensive between a steak sandwich and a bolanga sandwich?
Steak.

[HitandRun Reggie]

And wasn't he accused of assault on a young man??? Sexual assault. Not physically

???

I know Hillary defended a child molester by saying it was the 12 year old girl's fault, and that she liked being banged by older guys. Plus she layed the blame on Bill Clinton's sexual assault victims entirely on the women.

[Norcaliblunt]

Can someone please define to me what a real job is? Lol.

An auto underwriter? Lol.
An insurance agent? Lol
A bank teller? Lol.

You are right these jobs have so much more meaning in the scheme of the universe than someone who is providing you the service to receive the calories you need to sustain life.

So once owning a failed sandwich shop and taking a loss is real and shows competence? Lol.

[NumberSix]

What? Your missing the point. Kids don't need to make 15 bucks an hour. Those are adults with families causing the fuss. Now follow me. Job's like McDonald's would rather hire an adult who is free to work any hours fir the same price as opposed to a kid that can only work between 4-10 because theh must go to school. They dug their own grave. And its nit just for thus reason. Less employees mean less medical costs, insurance, training, etc.
Now, McDonalds would much rather hire teenagers. Traditionally, teenagers would work for less an adults would. If there was no minimum wage, you better believe that fast food jobs would be nothing but a revolving door of teenagers working short term for simple pocket money.

Since there is a minimum wage, there's not much reason to hire teenagers.

[Norcaliblunt]

The funny thing is the work is worth more than minimum wage. You couldn't pay me 100 bucks an hour to do that shit job.

[97 bulls]

Now, McDonalds would much rather hire teenagers. Traditionally, teenagers would work for less an adults would. If there was no minimum wage, you better believe that fast food jobs would be nothing but a revolving door of teenagers working short term for simple pocket money.

Since there is a minimum wage, there's not much reason to hire teenagers.
This isnt true Six. My mom is in her late 50s and when she worked at McDonald's there was a minimum wage. I believe the minimum wage law has been around longer than McDonald's has.


This is what I think happened. The job situation got so bad that adults were.forced to take on two menial jobs in an effort to make ends meet. That along with the influx of labor from people comming from Mexico pushed out the need for companies like McDonald's having to hire kids and have to work around their schedule and restraints. It's cheaper to have one guy being able to work 40 hours as oppsed to having to schedule three kids 20 hours a week.

[97 bulls]

Uh aj1987 dude you got so many things wrong... What made you to defend the interests of big businesses while not even getting the benefits of this ideology that they are getting? Wake up
I couldn't agree more. It never ceases to amaze me that the working class will fight tooth and
nail to let these billion dollar businesses hoard the money.

[Norcaliblunt]

I couldn't agree more. It never ceases to amaze me that the working class will fight tooth and
nail to let these billion dollar businesses hoard the money.


But minimum wage isn't liberty man, it violates the Austrian School therefore its blasphemy. I went to college and attended economics classes aka the most corrupt studies in all academia, so I know what I'm talking about.

[falc39]

You are right these jobs have so much more meaning in the scheme of the universe than someone who is providing you the service to receive the calories you need to sustain life.

Providing the service to receive the calories you need to sustain life? lollllll. Like they are the last line of defense before catastrophic starvation. It's fricking McDonalds. No one gives a shit. Haven't stepped inside that place for more than four years. If these workers think they are worth more, than they need to go out and get what they are worth in the market. Stop complaining.

[iamgine]

If the minimum wage raise is only for McDonald's employee it would be fine.

But raising minimum wage is for everybody. And $15...definitely not ready for that.

They should lower the minimum wage instead.

[97 bulls]

If the minimum wage raise is only for McDonald's employee it would be fine.

But raising minimum wage is for everybody. And $15...definitely not ready for that.

They should lower the minimum wage instead.
What would lowering the minimum wage do to the economy? And how or why?

[iamgine]

What would lowering the minimum wage do to the economy? And how or why?
Think about it.

[97 bulls]

Think about it.
Ok. I thought about it. Now how can lowering the minimum wage help our economy?????

[The Iron Sheik]

A fair wage is what the market will support. Creating an arbitrary minimum doesn't make something fair.

And increasing revenue only helps if you increase it by as much as costs go up. For instance, say labor is I don't know 50% of the cost of production. A value meal costs $6.00 or so. So you little more than double the labor portion of production cost. So say the $3.00 labor portion now becomes 650. You now have to pay. $9.50 for a happy meal(and this ignores that meals at places like whataburger are already $8. You really think you are selling the same amount of happy meals at $9.50 that you sell at $6? You aren't.

good. then maybe this will make people stop eating fast food and america won't be so fat anymore

[Dresta]

But minimum wage isn't liberty man, it violates the Austrian School therefore its blasphemy. I went to college and attended economics classes aka the most corrupt studies in all academia, so I know what I'm talking about.
This has nothing to do with the Austrian School, so i don't know what you're blabbering about here. This is what happens when you belittle the arguments of others without knowing anything about them (you resort to crude reductionisms and smears, deny the mountains of evidence showing your folly, and call your opponents shills or some other such disparagement).

It's a very simple logical proposition: if raising the minimum wage to $15 increases the wealth and opportunity of the poor, then raising it to $30 will increase these things even more. Ergo, the road to economic prosperity is a simple matter of perpetual minimum wage increases - no need to produce anything, just pay everyone more! I take it you can recognise that such a proposition is rather stupid, well, it's no less stupid than adopting the minimum wage as a governing principle (particularly a Federal one in such a diverse nation), yet the idea has become such an engrained dogmatism that you can't even bring up its failure without upsetting and offending people. Talk about conventional wisdom - and yet to challenge this doctrine is seen as Conservative? What is it conserving exactly? Certainly not the economic policies of the past 80 years...


I couldn't agree more. It never ceases to amaze me that the working class will fight tooth and
nail to let these billion dollar businesses hoard the money.
Who is 'hoarding the money'? That's a straw-man; no-one is fighting for that; they are fighting for the right of an individual to work for whatever they please, the right of contract, something with which the government has no right to interfere.

Perhaps this is proof that you can only see things in terms of sides and dialectic confrontation (the rich and poor opposed, the goal of the rich to protect their money, the goal of the poor to steal their money - this is not how things actually work in the real world - people will form opinions not entirely guided by their own self-interest, even if you think that it is stupid to care more about truth than what benefits you).

[NumberSix]

Ok. I thought about it. Now how can lowering the minimum wage help our economy?????
Has it never occurred to you that somebody could possibly create a new industry that would require paying people less than the current minimum wage? Minimum wage prevents those industries from even existing.

In this new age of technology, there are plenty of businesses that could exist that don't. There are things that people could be paid to do that require very little effort.

For example, if I wanted to start a company that pays people 10 cents an hour to wear a bracelet that tracks their activity rate, blood flow and other medical information. That's valuable information that could then be sold to other companies in the medical field. Wearing a little bracelet doesn't interfere with people's lives or even prevent them from doing their real job. But that business can't exist because it's simply not possible to pay people $7.25 an hour to do that.

[97 bulls]

Has it never occurred to you that somebody could possibly create a new industry that would require paying people less than the current minimum wage? Minimum wage prevents those industries from even existing.

In this new age of technology, there are plenty of businesses that could exist that don't. There are things that people could be paid to do that require very little effort.

For example, if I wanted to start a company that pays people 10 cents an hour to wear a bracelet that tracks their activity rate, blood flow and other medical information. That's valuable information that could then be sold to other companies in the medical field. Wearing a little bracelet doesn't interfere with people's lives or even prevent them from doing their real job. But that business can't exist because it's simply not possible to pay people $7.25 an hour to do that.
Why would someone work for 10

[97 bulls]

Who is 'hoarding the money'? That's a straw-man; no-one is fighting for that; they are fighting for the right of an individual to work for whatever they please, the right of contract, something with which the government has no right to interfere.
The rich are hoarding the money. I mean were the only country or one the few in which the CEOs make 300-500 times what their employees make. Why? Thats hoarding bro. And you wanna talk about a strawman? That weak argument about "contract". We live in a psuedo free society. I say this because theres so many regulations that one can't possibly be in a "right of contract" situation. So we can agree on a contract but its gonna be within the confines of the law. And most laws are implemented because some of the citizens start to abuse a situation.



Perhaps this is proof that you can only see things in terms of sides and dialectic confrontation (the rich and poor opposed, the goal of the rich to protect their money, the goal of the poor to steal their money - this is not how things actually work in the real world -
This isnt Robin Hood bro. If these big businesses payed their employees a fair wage, then thus wouldn't be an issue. Fair means that as a person running a lucrative business, so lucrative that you get a raise every year, why not reward youre employees as well? Why tfy to figure out ways to squeeze every ounce of effort out of your workers and not want to pay them?????


people will form opinions not entirely guided by their own self-interest, even if you think that it is stupid to care more about truth than what benefits you).
I don't think anyones opinion is stupid. We just disagree. Ill even take it a step further. I feel all social and economic POVs can be effective. Unfortunately, someone is gonna abuse it. In this case it's the rich.