Lebron's best opportunity

[Mrofir]

This is his best chance to cement his legacy firmly as a top 10 player of all time. When I say firmly I mean absolutely no arguments, even from haters.

His first finals series with Cleveland was excusable.

His 2-4 with Miami is shooting par.

If he wants to climb the ladder he has to deliver this year. If he wants to eventually finish firm top 5 he must deliver in Cleveland. Tall order -- Pretty interesting series I'd say.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Getting swept by SA is not excusable
Lebron played alltime bad that series, they lost the finals 2 games by a combined 4 points w/ Bran shooting 35/17/64 with 6 turnovers. As much as Bran fans like to bring up that Detroit game the Cavs supporting casts defense carried them all playoffs, like 2011 Rose

[ThatCoolKid]

Lebron is already firmly in the top 10. A win here puts him at #7.

Current Top 10:
1)MJ
2)KAJ
3)Wilt
4)Russel
5)Magic
6)Bird
7)Duncan
8)Shaq
9)Lebron
10)Kobe

With a win Lebron bumps down Duncan and Shaq.

[Mrofir]

Getting swept by SA is not excusable
Lebron played alltime bad that series, they lost the finals 2 games by a combined 4 points w/ Bran shooting 35/17/64 with 6 turnovers. As much as Bran fans like to bring up that Detroit game the Cavs supporting casts defense carried them all playoffs, like 2011 Rose


That was a learning curve finals for Lebron and everyone knew it at the time, and everyone with a clear head knows it now.

[Mrofir]

Lebron is already firmly in the top 10. A win here puts him at #7.

Current Top 10:
1)MJ
2)KAJ
3)Wilt
4)Russel
5)Magic
6)Bird
7)Duncan
8)Shaq
9)Lebron
10)Kobe

With a win Lebron bumps down Duncan and Shaq.

My current top 10

1) MJ
2) KAJ
3) Magic
4) Bird
5) Russell
6) Wilt
7) Duncan
8) Kobe
9) Shaq
10) tied, Lebron and Olajuwon

Special note -- 11) Pippen, underrated and instead of having MJ vs Pippen comparisons, this is where he belongs.

Special note -- if Duncan wins another ring he slides to 5. Advantage: modern era.

For me this is a tiebreaker year for #10. I don't think he moves anywhere on my list either way this year. But if he wins, and his career continues on the same trajectory for the next 5 years, he should end up in top 5 and has the potential to land #2 if he can somehow win 5 rings, even if #5 is as a 2nd option.

[oh the horror]

Going 2-4 with Miami was not par dude. That was underwhelming considering the expectations they had going in. You don't sit there AFTER the fact and act like hindsight is 20/20.



But I will say this run with Cleveland and capping it off with a title is in fact the type of shit that does enhance a players legacy for sure. This would be impressive

[Timmy D for MVP]

He's already going to undoubtedly end up top-10.

The only arguments are from people who don't like him and/or fear him kicking their favorite players out.

[Ne 1]

Getting swept by SA is not excusable
Lebron played alltime bad that series, they lost the finals 2 games by a combined 4 points w/ Bran shooting 35/17/64 with 6 turnovers. As much as Bran fans like to bring up that Detroit game the Cavs supporting casts defense carried them all playoffs, like 2011 Rose

I agree. His team was swept, but it's not really the fact that he lost that series, but that he performed so far below what you would have expected from him. He averaged 22/7/7, but he shot 35% from the field, 20% on 3's and 69% from the line while averaging 6 turnovers per game and on 23 shots per game. Sorry, but that's horrendous for a player of James' caliber. Although I do give him somewhat of a pass for losing since nobody really expected the Cavs to beat the Spurs, but if he even played just a little bit better, the series would have been closer, specifically in Game's 3 and 4, the Cavs as a team played well enough to make those games close and if not for LeBron's poor performances it would have been tied 2-2 going to Cleveland for game 5. It's a black mark on his resume in a way not because he lost, but because of how poorly he played by his standards. I don't really judge him based on that too much because he wasn't in his prime yet, but to say it was excusable just isn't true. Part of that was him being exposed as a terrible shooter. (For the entire season, he shot just 34.6% from 16-23 feet, 31.9% on 3s and 69.8% from the line.)

[Mrofir]

Going 2-4 with Miami was not par dude. That was underwhelming considering the expectations they had going in.


I can basically agree with that -- except that 3 outta 4 definitely would have had to be considered a undeniable success, despite the absurd expectations that were just not realistic. I'd say 2.5 was par but that's not possible.

[oh the horror]

I can basically agree with that -- except that 3 outta 4 definitely would have had to be considered a undeniable success, despite the absurd expectations that were just not realistic. I'd say 2.5 was par but that's not possible.



That first year where he essentially crapped the bed left one hell of a shit stain on his resume for sure.


Although in a normal world outside of expectations going 2-4 is pretty decent but they didn't have 50% aspirations for that squad.


At the end of the day the guy is a top ten talent. But that's for others to argue in terms of preference on where they'd like to place him, ALSO depending upon what happens these playoffs and beyond. He's still writing his story so to speak

[Cocaine80s]

My current top 10

1) MJ
2) KAJ
3) Magic
4) Bird
5) Russell
6) Wilt
7) Duncan
8) Kobe
9) Shaq
10) tied, Lebron and Olajuwon

Special note -- 11) Pippen, underrated and instead of having MJ vs Pippen comparisons, this is where he belongs.

Special note -- if Duncan wins another ring he slides to 5. Advantage: modern era.

For me this is a tiebreaker year for #10. I don't think he moves anywhere on my list either way this year. But if he wins, and his career continues on the same trajectory for the next 5 years, he should end up in top 5 and has the potential to land #2 if he can somehow win 5 rings, even if #5 is as a 2nd option.
So losing puts him permanently out your top 10 but a win doesnt move him up at all?:biggums:

[Mrofir]

He's still writing his story so to speak


That's what I mean -- this series is particularly interesting because he has a chance to write a chapter that almost nobody else has. Winning a championship with 2 teams. And the absolutely nobody part: Winning a championship with Cleveland.

And doing it the first year he switches teams would be icing on the cake. Huge opportunity for Lebron.

Have to favor the Warriors though on paper.

[Lebron23]

So losing puts him permanently out your top 10 but a win doesnt move him up at all?:biggums:


This

He's a better player than Bird, Duncan, and Shaq in terms of talent and all around game.

I actually put him at top 3-4 if he wins his 3rd NBA title. How many NBA players are 4x NBA MVP, 3x Finals MVP???

[Mrofir]

So losing puts him permanently out your top 10 but a win doesnt move him up at all?:biggums:


no. Losing would give him a couple brownie points over Hakeem but I'd keep him there until he gets back to the finals again minimum.

Winning would give him sole ownership of my #10 spot, and winning another would start the ball rolling to top 5 and potentially top 3.


I love how everyone seems to try to identify all posters as either haters or stans. I'm neither. Just an Nba fan.

[ThatCoolKid]

This

He's a better player than Bird, Duncan, and Shaq in terms of talent and all around game.

I actually put him at top 3-4 if he wins his 3rd NBA title. How many NBA players are 4x NBA MVP, 3x Finals MVP???

Russel, Jordan, and KAJ.

Your question is a non sequitur btw.

[Mrofir]

This

He's a better player than Bird, Duncan, and Shaq in terms of talent and all around game.

I actually put him at top 3-4 if he wins his 3rd NBA title. How many NBA players are 4x NBA MVP, 3x Finals MVP???


Not nearly as dominant as peak shaq. Arguably nobody ever has been. But Lebron needs at least 3 rings to even discuss vaulting him ahead of Shaq. O'neal has 3 rings that came while he was perhaps most dominant player in the history of the game.

Not nearly as mentally tough as Bird. Arguably nobody ever has been. But since mental toughness contributed to a few of Lebron's team's shortfalls, particularly the loss to the Mavs, Bird has the clear edge for now.

Duncan has the resume, period.

It's hard to be top 5. He might get there.

[Cocaine80s]

no. Losing would give him a couple brownie points over Hakeem but I'd keep him there until he gets back to the finals again minimum.

Winning would give him sole ownership of my #10 spot, and winning another would start the ball rolling to top 5 and potentially top 3.


I love how everyone seems to try to identify all posters as either haters or stans. I'm neither. Just an Nba fan.
So lets say he wins this year and hes at #10 for you.

If he wins another next year he leaps over all those guys to #5?

[kamil]

This

He's a better player than Bird, Duncan, and Shaq in terms of talent and all around game.

I actually put him at top 3-4 if he wins his 3rd NBA title. How many NBA players are 4x NBA MVP, 3x Finals MVP???

LeBron* over Bird? LOL, I don't think so.

[Mrofir]

So lets say he wins this year and hes at #10 for you.

If he wins another next year he leaps over all those guys to #5?


Depends on circumstances but the differences between these players in the top 10 is razor thin, so it's not unreasonable for someone to make a leap if the right thing happens at the right time.

2 in a row in Cleveland would be mighty impressive. Especially without Love. Especially if he wins finals MVP both times. I could see him cracking top 5 if he does all that. But I don't see that happening. I think Warriors may win this series. But the Warriors being a great team is exactly why this is such an opportunity for him.

A more likely path to the top 5 for Lebron would be 3-4 more finals appearances, 1 more mvp, and 2 more championships. Must say, the weakness of his conference has to play a role when looking at something that could end up being 9 or 10 finals appearances in his career. Thusly, finishing with 8-10 finals appearances and 4-5 rings is his best path to top 5. The way it goes down determines whether he can crack top 3.

[Kvnzhangyay]

LeBron* over Bird? LOL, I don't think so.

Were you even old enough to watch Bird to say that? :biggums:

[Mrofir]

Were you even old enough to watch Bird to say that? :biggums:


I watched Bird and I can tell you that guy was vicious in a way Lebron has never been able to touch.


Anyway what I intend to point out in this thread is just how much of a historical crossroads this could be for Lebron's legacy. He could lose this year and never appear in the finals again. What happens then? Clear cut over Hakeem? Maybe??..... but definitely not much higher than that. He moved to Cleveland and he pushed his chips in and the river card is coming.

[Prime_Shaq]

This

He's a better player than Bird, Duncan, and Shaq in terms of talent and all around game.

I actually put him at top 3-4 if he wins his 3rd NBA title. How many NBA players are 4x NBA MVP, 3x Finals MVP???
He wasn't as good as Shaq.

1) MJ
2) KAJ
3) Russell
4) Magic
5) Bird
6) Shaq
7) Duncan
8) Wilt
9) LeBron
10) Kobe

[Mrofir]

He wasn't as good as Shaq.

1) MJ
2) KAJ
3) Russell
4) Magic
5) Bird
6) Shaq
7) Duncan
8) Wilt
9) LeBron
10) Kobe


Don't see how there's any way to rank Lebron CURRENTLY ahead of Kobe. My money is on him passing Kobe eventually, but Kobe has 5 rings to Lebron's 2. Circumstances are a relative wash. Kobe just has more rings. Lebron needs more rings. This series is very important for him.

Winning this series will also go a long way to establishing Lebron as a long term fixture in Cleveland. Coming up short would open him up to leaving for another team, which would be its own crazy story.

He could just go to literally any other playoff east team and give the finals another crack. What a weird career.

[COnDEMnED]

Lebron is already firmly in the top 10. A win here puts him at #7.

Current Top 10:
1)MJ
2)KAJ
3)Wilt
4)Russel
5)Magic
6)Bird
7)Duncan
8)Shaq
9)Lebron
10)Kobe

With a win Lebron bumps down Duncan and Shaq.
You're off your ****ing medication if you think 3 rings on the hand picked super friends bumps Lebron above Shaq or Duncan. At the most it might tie him with Kobe. Have you ever seen Prime Shaq? Prime Duncan? The disrespect to Shaq and Duncan on this board from LeBronies trying to illegitimately bump him up the all time list is getting out of hand. These people have got to be either foreigners or still in high school.

[LeFraud James]

Don't see how there's any way to rank Lebron CURRENTLY ahead of Kobe. My money is on him passing Kobe eventually, but Kobe has 5 rings to Lebron's 2. Circumstances are a relative wash. Kobe just has more rings. Lebron needs more rings. This series is very important for him.

Don't mind him. He's just barely getting the taste of Kobe's ass out of his mouth.

[Timmy D for MVP]

Don't see how there's any way to rank Lebron CURRENTLY ahead of Kobe. My money is on him passing Kobe eventually, but Kobe has 5 rings to Lebron's 2. Circumstances are a relative wash. Kobe just has more rings. Lebron needs more rings. This series is very important for him.

Winning this series will also go a long way to establishing Lebron as a long term fixture in Cleveland. Coming up short would open him up to leaving for another team, which would be its own crazy story.

He could just go to literally any other playoff east team and give the finals another crack. What a weird career.

Lebron doesn't need to win anything to pass Kobe.

[Mrofir]

Lebron doesn't need to win anything to pass Kobe.

That's not an argument.



Kobe's finals appearances had 10 times the magic of Lebron's. They are mythological. Even his failures were more spectacular than Lebron. Lebron's game 7 vs San Antonio will go down in history however, I'll give him that. The public needs time to get past the 3.

Did anyone ever say "What's up with Kobe!?" In a finals series? No. Even when he was playing badly he was Kobe. Lebron has had some head scratchers. For this reason alone he cannot pass Kobe until his resume grows.

Overall, so far, Lebron's career just hasn't gotten there in the hero/magic/mythology factor, but this year -- this is "Lebron's best opportunity".

[aj1987]

Wow! Bird is so ****ing overrated. You guys are seriously putting him in the top 5? :facepalm

[Mrofir]

Wow! Bird is so ****ing overrated. You guys are seriously putting him in the top 5? :facepalm


MRS: Michael, I'm now giving you the opportunity to create the Dream Team of Michael Jordan, of all players of basketball. You're on the team, and you can name four other guys at different positions. That doesn't mean there aren't 20 other great guys for those positions, but you can explain your picks.

But if I had to pick a center, I would take Olajuwon. That leaves out Shaq, Patrick Ewing. It leaves out Wilt Chamberlain. It leaves out a lot of people. And the reason I would take Olajuwon is very simple: he is so versatile because of what he can give you from that position. It's not just his scoring, not just his rebounding or not just his blocked shots. People don't realize he was in the top seven in steals. He always made great decisions on the court. For all facets of the game, I have to give it to him.

Power forward: There's James Worthy, whom I love, and he is a North Carolina guy. Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, whom I adore and is a good friend, and Charles Oakley. But in terms again of versatility, it has to be Larry Bird. The things he could provide to you all around: his demeanor, his work ethic and his versatility once again.

The idea here is I would build a versatile, multitalented team able to do so many different things. When the defense comes at you, they have to guard a lot of different areas, and that makes Larry Bird the choice for me.

Small forward: That is the toughest part because I played with one of the best small forwards, Scottie Pippen. He is as versatile as it comes. He handles the ball. He's a good defensive rebounder. I would be hard-pressed to pick someone else at the small forward position, even though I know Dr. J [Julius Erving] is sitting right there, too, especially in terms of excitement. And there's Dominique Wilkins, too. And you'd have to think about Elgin Baylor, even though I never saw Baylor play, or played with him. But from what I know, and what he could provide, it's Scottie Pippen. I know that's being biased to some degree. But I can't help it.

Point guard: That's easy. Magic Johnson. Because of his height, you'd have a tough time defending him. It's a beautiful thing to see a 6-foot 9-inch guy rebound the ball and start the break.


http://www.michaeljordan.pl/wywiad_michael_jordan_5ang.php

[LeBird]

If anyone still seriously thinks Kobe is better than Lebron they need to give up on Basketball and follow Curling or something.

[Timmy D for MVP]

That's not an argument.



Kobe's finals appearances had 10 times the magic of Lebron's. They are mythological. Even his failures were more spectacular than Lebron. Lebron's game 7 vs San Antonio will go down in history however, I'll give him that. The public needs time to get past the 3.

Did anyone ever say "What's up with Kobe!?" In a finals series? No. Even when he was playing badly he was Kobe. Lebron has had some head scratchers. For this reason alone he cannot pass Kobe until his resume grows.

Overall, so far, Lebron's career just hasn't gotten there in the hero/magic/mythology factor, but this year -- this is "Lebron's best opportunity".

THAT'S not an argument. Not mythological enough? :wtf:

He has enough hardware, will surpass Kobe in All NBA awards and statistics,and is the more impactful player.

[Mrofir]

THAT'S not an argument. Not mythological enough? :wtf:

He has enough hardware, will surpass Kobe in All NBA awards and statistics,and is the more impactful player.


I'm sorry, I assumed you are well versed in nba history when I used that term. Let me explain in surface level detail:

Kobe's teams emerged from an ultra competitive western conference. His championships with Shaq were less impressive than the 2 he had later, so let's throw them in the trash and completely forget about them.

The 2 rings he won without Shaq again came out of an ultra competitive conference, and those Lakers beat the teams that beat Lebron's high win% teams on their way to the finals. And those Lakers teams would have beaten Lebron's teams, badly. They are more impressive wins than the 2 championships Lebron has coming out of a historically weak east on a historically stacked team. Therefor Lebron absolutely needs a nice win to surpass Kobe, which could happen this year.

And I just made that argument in a world where Kobe gets absolutely zero credit for the 3 rings with Shaq. In the real world, Lebron can't surpass Kobe until he gets a 4th ring and I'm fairly sure you can't win 2 rings in the same season so it ain't happening this year.


I'd take Lebron over Kobe on my team most of the time. I like his style better overall. But that doesn't mean he has eclipsed Kobe's place on the ladder. You have to do that with a resume. There is no other way.

[6 for 24]

9)Lebron
10)Kobe


With all due respect, this ranking is absurdity. What stats does LeBron have better than Kobe "the self-proclaimed Black Mamba" other than PPG, APG, RPG, SPG, BPG, FG% and 3FG%? Certainly not the all-important PER (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=324201)

[Mrofir]

[QUOTE=6 for 24]With all due respect, this ranking is absurdity. What stats does LeBron have better than Kobe "the self-proclaimed Black Mamba" other than PPG, APG, RPG, SPG, BPG, FG% and 3FG%? Certainly not the all-important PER (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=324201)

[Timmy D for MVP]

I'm sorry, I assumed you are well versed in nba history when I used that term. Let me explain in surface level detail:

Kobe's teams emerged from an ultra competitive western conference. His championships with Shaq were less impressive than the 2 he had later, so let's throw them in the trash and completely forget about them.

The 2 rings he won without Shaq again came out of an ultra competitive conference, and those Lakers beat the teams that beat Lebron's high win% teams on their way to the finals. And those Lakers teams would have beaten Lebron's teams, badly. They are more impressive wins than the 2 championships Lebron has coming out of a historically weak east on a historically stacked team. Therefor Lebron absolutely needs a nice win to surpass Kobe, which could happen this year.

And I just made that argument in a world where Kobe gets absolutely zero credit for the 3 rings with Shaq. In the real world, Lebron can't surpass Kobe until he gets a 4th ring and I'm fairly sure you can't win 2 rings in the same season so it ain't happening this year.


I'd take Lebron over Kobe on my team most of the time. I like his style better overall. But that doesn't mean he has eclipsed Kobe's place on the ladder. You have to do that with a resume. There is no other way.

You're going to need to put those 3 back in because this post is terrible and here's why:

So if you pull the three with Shaq out then Lebron has twice the amount of MVP's, the same amount of FMVP's, 3 more Finals appearances, and leads in the major statistical categories. His wins come against the 2nd best player of this generation and a stacked OKC team and a Spurs team that was even better.

You said yourself you'd take Lebron on your team but... Kobe is still somehow better? :confusedshrug:

Lebron is the better player. Plain and simple.

[6 for 24]

Lol -- Kobe willed two teams to championships. They were talented teams but they weren't getting there without him and his performances in the WCF in particular were historically great.


I am not sure if you just misquoted me, but I am on your side, my friend. Kobe has always been one to leverage his opportunities. For example, in all five of his championships, he has played with tall, unskilled big men. What do you do with a team like this? Why, you chuck the ball with impunity. Then the tall, unskilled big men can "gobble up" the rebounds and give you-- the all time greatest chucker-- more shots on goal. This is just winning basketball! Although it does seem like LeBron has used the offseason to train in the Kobe philosophy (evidenced by his 47 PER game 3), so the tide may turn yet!

"You can't make 'em if you don't take 'em" -- self-proclaimed Mamba

Warmest regards,

Ayotunde Ndiaye

[Mrofir]

You said yourself you'd take Lebron on your team but... Kobe is still somehow better? :confusedshrug:

Lebron is the better player. Plain and simple.


Hakeem was quite arguably the better player when compared to Shaq. He obliterated Shaq in the finals. But Shaq has the better resume and is higher on most people's lists. He did not get a ton better and suddenly win those championships. What Shaq had that propelled him into being so unstoppable was a guy named <cannot mention>.

Resume is what counts. So while you're busy making a compelling argument as to why Kobe's 2 championships are not as good as Lebron's 2 championships, what people are looking at in the real world is Kobe's 5 vs Lebron's 2. And we're back to square one.

[Mrofir]

I am not sure if you just misquoted me, but I am on your side, my friend. Kobe has always been one to leverage his opportunities. For example, in all five of his championships, he has played with tall, unskilled big men. What do you do with a team like this? Why, you chuck the ball with impunity. Then the tall, unskilled big men can "gobble up" the rebounds and give you-- the all time greatest chucker-- more shots on goal. This is just winning basketball! Although it does seem like LeBron has used the offseason to train in the Kobe philosophy (evidenced by his 47 PER game 3), so the tide may turn yet!

"You can't make 'em if you don't take 'em" -- self-proclaimed Mamba

Warmest regards,

Ayotunde Ndiaye


lol, forever entertaining

[bballnoob1192]

kobe is ahead of shaq and duncan and lebron IMO, but lebron can leap frog them all if he wins a couple more titles. my ranking would be
MJ
KAJ
Russell
MAGIC
WILT
BIRD
KOBE
Duncan
SHAQ
Lebron.

I have my reasons for Kobe above duncan and shaq. so if you wanna know PM me

[Bankaii]

Wow! Bird is so ****ing overrated. You guys are seriously putting him in the top 5? :facepalm
This. Individually he's a beast but his overall career isn't anything crazy compared to the rest of the top 10. I have him at 8.

[Timmy D for MVP]

Hakeem was quite arguably the better player when compared to Shaq. He obliterated Shaq in the finals. But Shaq has the better resume and is higher on most people's lists. He did not get a ton better and suddenly win those championships. What Shaq had that propelled him into being so unstoppable was a guy named <cannot mention>.

Resume is what counts. So while you're busy making a compelling argument as to why Kobe's 2 championships are not as good as Lebron's 2 championships, what people are looking at in the real world is Kobe's 5 vs Lebron's 2. And we're back to square one.

No Shaq is the more dominant player. He DID get much better as one does when one ages past being 22 in the NBA. He did have a great team because champions tend to be good teams. I never argued that his two titles were as good as Kobe's 2 post Shaq. I argued that they are not so inferior, as you claimed, and that Lebron dominates Kobe as a player.

But I'm confused. Did you not yourself discount Shaq/Kobe titles and claim that was enough?

I'm curious though by your measure of "resume." Where does Bill Russell fall on your resume list?

[Lebron23]

This. Individually he's a beast but his overall career isn't anything crazy compared to the rest of the top 10. I have him at 8.


And he only won 3 NBA titles. LeBron this year has a huge chance of surpassing his individual accolades.

[Gotterdammerung]

...[snip]...

The 2 rings he won without Shaq again came out of an ultra competitive conference, and those Lakers beat the teams that beat Lebron's high win% teams on their way to the finals. And those Lakers teams would have beaten Lebron's teams, badly. They are more impressive wins than the 2 championships Lebron has coming out of a historically weak east on a historically stacked team. Therefor Lebron absolutely needs a nice win to surpass Kobe, which could happen this year.

in other words you think the 2009 & 2010 Lakers would have beaten the 2012 or 2013 Heat? :wtf:

I'd like to hear your reasoning on that hypothetical matchup.

[Rose'sACL]

Hakeem was quite arguably the better player when compared to Shaq. He obliterated Shaq in the finals. But Shaq has the better resume and is higher on most people's lists. He did not get a ton better and suddenly win those championships. What Shaq had that propelled him into being so unstoppable was a guy named <cannot mention>.

Resume is what counts. So while you're busy making a compelling argument as to why Kobe's 2 championships are not as good as Lebron's 2 championships, what people are looking at in the real world is Kobe's 5 vs Lebron's 2. And we're back to square one.
No real NBA fan thinks that Hakeem shitted on shaq in the finals. Go and watch those finals again.

Also, if you are going to pull that "east is weak" excuse then put lebron on west teams with good front offices since his rookie year. He would most probably have won more than 2 rings by now if he was on a western conference team. Other than kings and wolves all teams managed to put good to great supporting cast around their star player.
Even clippers have managed to put a good supporting cast when they got a star in CP3.
Kobe is best suited to play with big men on his team. Lebron is best suited to play with shooters. It is easier to find good spot up shooters who can defend than to find good big men but Lakers managed to do it for Kobe because they are the motherfcking Lakers. This is why I laugh when Kobe and his fans act like it is tough to play all your career for the Lakers.

[Mrofir]

No Shaq is the more dominant player. He DID get much better as one does when one ages past being 22 in the NBA. He did have a great team because champions tend to be good teams. I never argued that his two titles were as good as Kobe's 2 post Shaq. I argued that they are not so inferior, as you claimed, and that Lebron dominates Kobe as a player.

But I'm confused. Did you not yourself discount Shaq/Kobe titles and claim that was enough?

I'm curious though by your measure of "resume." Where does Bill Russell fall on your resume list?

Resume does seem to be the sticking point here.

I discounted the Shaq Kobe titles to demonstrate that even whilst ignoring half of Kobe's distinguished career, it's still not clear who should be ranked higher. Thus when considering the entirety of Kobe's career one has to give the current edge to Kobe, or championships lose their value.

Now by value, we come to the question of Bill Russell. An entirely different debate. His resume is the singular reason he rates so high on this list. Had he won 2 championships with the same statistical output he would be nowhere to be found in the top 10. The value of his championships has to be balanced with the circumstances of the league at his day. Again resume is the major factor and within that category one must make value judgments.

As for the question of Lebron dominating Kobe as a player, it is only made through statistics, which have their place, but real life matchups with Lebron in his prime and Kobe in the latter half of his career don't suggest anything like domination.

The fact is Kobe and Lebron have both been players that are at the epicenter of a game's outcome. The most essential players for their teams -- at that point you move to the question of playoff success vs the quality of their teams and opponents. In that measure Kobe has more rings and more top flight performances against better opponents to date.

[aj1987]

MRS: Michael, I'm now giving you the opportunity to create the Dream Team of Michael Jordan, of all players of basketball. You're on the team, and you can name four other guys at different positions. That doesn't mean there aren't 20 other great guys for those positions, but you can explain your picks.

But if I had to pick a center, I would take Olajuwon. That leaves out Shaq, Patrick Ewing. It leaves out Wilt Chamberlain. It leaves out a lot of people. And the reason I would take Olajuwon is very simple: he is so versatile because of what he can give you from that position. It's not just his scoring, not just his rebounding or not just his blocked shots. People don't realize he was in the top seven in steals. He always made great decisions on the court. For all facets of the game, I have to give it to him.

Power forward: There's James Worthy, whom I love, and he is a North Carolina guy. Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, whom I adore and is a good friend, and Charles Oakley. But in terms again of versatility, it has to be Larry Bird. The things he could provide to you all around: his demeanor, his work ethic and his versatility once again.

The idea here is I would build a versatile, multitalented team able to do so many different things. When the defense comes at you, they have to guard a lot of different areas, and that makes Larry Bird the choice for me.

Small forward: That is the toughest part because I played with one of the best small forwards, Scottie Pippen. He is as versatile as it comes. He handles the ball. He's a good defensive rebounder. I would be hard-pressed to pick someone else at the small forward position, even though I know Dr. J [Julius Erving] is sitting right there, too, especially in terms of excitement. And there's Dominique Wilkins, too. And you'd have to think about Elgin Baylor, even though I never saw Baylor play, or played with him. But from what I know, and what he could provide, it's Scottie Pippen. I know that's being biased to some degree. But I can't help it.

Point guard: That's easy. Magic Johnson. Because of his height, you'd have a tough time defending him. It's a beautiful thing to see a 6-foot 9-inch guy rebound the ball and start the break.


http://www.michaeljordan.pl/wywiad_michael_jordan_5ang.php
Ok....? What's your point? According to that, Hakeem > Shaq (:oldlol: ). That article if form 2002, IIRC. I would rather pick Timmy or KG at the PF position. That team doesn't need much scoring, with Hakeem and MJ, and those two are among the GOAT defenders.

[Timmy D for MVP]

Resume does seem to be the sticking point here.

I discounted the Shaq Kobe titles to demonstrate that even whilst ignoring half of Kobe's distinguished career, it's still not clear who should be ranked higher. Thus when considering the entirety of Kobe's career one has to give the current edge to Kobe, or championships lose their value.

Now by value, we come to the question of Bill Russell. An entirely different debate. His resume is the singular reason he rates so high on this list. Had he won 2 championships with the same statistical output he would be nowhere to be found in the top 10. The value of his championships has to be balanced with the circumstances of the league at his day. Again resume is the major factor and within that category one must make value judgments.

As for the question of Lebron dominating Kobe as a player, it is only made through statistics, which have their place, but real life matchups with Lebron in his prime and Kobe in the latter half of his career don't suggest anything like domination.

The fact is Kobe and Lebron have both been players that are at the epicenter of a game's outcome. The most essential players for their teams -- at that point you move to the question of playoff success vs the quality of their teams and opponents. In that measure Kobe has more rings and more top flight performances against better opponents to date.

This is where you are fundamentally wrong. If you wish to ignore all of the statistics and accolades that's on you.

I will boil my argument down to two questions. First: who would you pick first on your team?

[Rose'sACL]

Ok....? What's your point? According to that, Hakeem > Shaq (:oldlol: ).
Not only that. This guy thinks that Hakeem destroyed shaq in the finals. He clearly didn't watch those finals games.

[aj1987]

Not only that. This guy thinks that Hakeem destroyed shaq in the finals. He clearly didn't watch those finals games.
:roll:

That was third year Shaq against arguably a PEAK Hakeem. Still managed to drop 28/13/6/3 on 60%.

[Mrofir]

Not only that. This guy thinks that Hakeem destroyed shaq in the finals. He clearly didn't watch those finals games.


I absolutely watched every one of those finals games. Quit pulling the credibility crap.

You can pull a "Shaq wasn't in his prime yet" -- that's fair enough. He went on to become a slightly better player later.

But the Magic had home court advantage and got swept by a Rockets team that outside of Hakeem was not as talented as the Magic. Hakeem's superior defense and passing ability were absolute keys in the series. I never used the term "shit on" -- what Hakeem did was dissect the Magic team and Shaq had no answers, not even enough to win one game. There is nothing about the development of Shaq's game that convinces me he could have stopped Hakeem from tilting that series. Prime Shaq in that series would have at least been a battle worth watching.

The fact that shaq put up big numbers against Hakeem and still got swept suggests that he wasn't too far from his prime. What do people expect? Prime Shaq to dump 40ppg and 20rpg on Hakeem? I don't think so. Numbers would have been similar. Hakeem found a way to impact the game in more ways.

[Rose'sACL]

:roll:

That was third year Shaq against arguably a PEAK Hakeem. Still managed to drop 28/13/6/3 on 60%.
Just imagine if lebron had a shooter like curry on his team. Curry isn't even close to shaq in terms of dominance but lebron+curry would destroy the league like no duo in the history of this league. This is why I laugh when people bring Kobe's scoring during 2001 and 2002 playoffs like it was very difficult with the other team shitting their pants before the game thinking about how to guard shaq.
When you are not the number 1 threat on other team's scouting report, you are not the best offensive player on your team.

[Mr Feeny]

I am not sure if you just misquoted me, but I am on your side, my friend. Kobe has always been one to leverage his opportunities. For example, in all five of his championships, he has played with tall, unskilled big men. What do you do with a team like this? Why, you chuck the ball with impunity. Then the tall, unskilled big men can "gobble up" the rebounds and give you-- the all time greatest chucker-- more shots on goal. This is just winning basketball! Although it does seem like LeBron has used the offseason to train in the Kobe philosophy (evidenced by his 47 PER game 3), so the tide may turn yet!

"You can't make 'em if you don't take 'em" -- self-proclaimed Mamba

Warmest regards,

Ayotunde Ndiaye

Stop this. You're about to make my heart go, from laughing. :oldlol:

[Rose'sACL]

I absolutely watched every one of those finals games. Quit pulling the credibility crap.

You can pull a "Shaq wasn't in his prime yet" -- that's fair enough. He went on to become a slightly better player later.

But the Magic had home court advantage and got swept by a Rockets team that outside of Hakeem was not as talented as the Magic. Hakeem's superior defense and passing ability were absolute keys in the series. I never used the term "shit on" -- what Hakeem did was dissect the Magic team and Shaq had no answers, not even enough to win one game. There is nothing about the development of Shaq's game that convinces me he could have stopped Hakeem from tilting that series. Prime Shaq in that series would have at least been a battle worth watching.

The fact that shaq put up big numbers against Hakeem and still got swept suggests that he wasn't too far from his prime. What do people expect? Prime Shaq to dump 40ppg and 20rpg on Hakeem? I don't think so. Numbers would have been similar. Hakeem found a way to impact the game in more ways.
Shaq played great. His team didnt. Why should shaq be penalized for that?

[Mrofir]

Just imagine if lebron had a shooter like curry on his team.


Who should I be imagining? Ray Allen?

Just imagine... D Wade, Chris Bosh.. Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love.

Just imagine -- the current theme song of Lebron's career.

Are you an illogical Lebron supporter?

[Rose'sACL]

Who should I be imagining? Ray Allen?

Just imagine... D Wade, Chris Bosh.. Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love.

Just imagine -- the current theme song of Lebron's career.

Are you an illogical Lebron supporter?
Ya. Give lebron a prime ray Allen. When a player is not lucky enough to have a front office like spurs or Lakers, we have to imagine what would have happened if he had that kind of luxury to truly compare him to other greats who had that luxury.

Lebron won 2 out of 3 years he had that luxury. He choked in 2011 which is why I never compare him to mj in any serious discussion.

[aj1987]

Who should I be imagining? Ray Allen?

Just imagine... D Wade, Chris Bosh.. Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love.

Just imagine -- the current theme song of Lebron's career.

Are you an illogical Lebron supporter?
Wade was 100% for one season and the same season, Bosh actually played like a man. They wrecked the league after the slow start (until LeBron's epic in the Finals). Irving and Love and injured. Love is out for the season and Irving just missed a bunch of games.

Allen was like 82 years old. Current Curry is a better shooter than peak Allen, let alone a geriatric version of him.

[Lebron23]

Ya. Give lebron a prime ray Allen. When a player is not lucky enough to have a front office like spurs or Lakers, we have to imagine what would have happened if he had that kind of luxury to truly compare him to other greats who had that luxury.


OP is a huge fan of Nash. Nash played with more talent than LeBron, but he failed to win an NBA title, and much worse was that he failed to lead his talented team in the finals.

[Mrofir]

Ya. Give lebron a prime ray Allen. When a player is not lucky enough to have a front office like spurs or Lakers, we have to imagine what would have happened if he had that kind of luxury to truly compare him to other greats who had that luxury.



K Irving, D Wade, C Bosh, R Allen, K Love

[Mrofir]

OP is a huge fan of Nash. Nash played with more talent than LeBron, but he failed to win an NBA title, and much worse was that he failed to lead his talented team in the finals.


You may notice that I have Lebron much higher on my list than Nash.

Nash is not as good as Lebron.

Yes. Oh yeah, it feels good doesn't it. Your personal worth is somehow linked to Lebron James.

You Lebron fans have some serious issues. You are scared of your own shadows. Kobe fans are pretty bad too. Ew.

[Rose'sACL]

K Irving, D Wade, C Bosh, R Allen, K Love
Ya. Lebron went 2 for 3.
Kyrie and love dont count till next year. I am sure you understand why.

[Mr Feeny]

K Irving, D Wade, C Bosh, R Allen, K Love

Fox, Fisher, Kobe, Malone, Payton/ Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Fisher

Ginobli, Parker, Leanord, etc etc

We can do this all day.

[Mrofir]

Shaq played great. His team didnt. Why should shaq be penalized for that?


You have lost sight of the discussion. Shaq isn't penalized for that, but people acknowledge the Hakeem played better in that series. He led his team to a sweep despite having the worse record, he played better with eye test, and he has a slight but obvious and significant statistical advantage. You said I didn't know anything about basketball. I don't understand why you would say mean things like that.

Why is Shaq higher on the all time list by most people's standards? Resume. The thing that is still separating Kobe from Lebron.

You Lebron fans are meanies. Im going to bed now.

[Rose'sACL]

You may notice that I have Lebron much higher on my list than Nash.

Nash is not as good as Lebron.

Yes. Oh yeah, it feels good doesn't it. Your personal worth is somehow linked to Lebron James.

You Lebron fans have some serious issues. You are scared of your own shadows. Kobe fans are pretty bad too. Ew.
He is making the comparison that if lebron played in the west he would most probably have had very good team around him for 7-8 years of his career unlike 3 he has had till now.

[Real14]

I'm sorry but tha only way Lebron can ever be considered top 10 to me is if he played one whole season with just 1 all star and win the finals without any rigging.:no:

[Lebron23]

Fox, Fisher, Kobe, Malone, Payton/ Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Fisher

Ginobli, Parker, Leanord, etc etc

We can do this all day.


This

Talented teams wins multiple NBA titles. Both Larry Bird and Magic Johnson had far better supporting casts than LeBron. According to the Op's logic. They should be both penalized for having good teams build around them.

[Rose'sACL]

You have lost sight of the discussion. Shaq isn't penalized for that, but people acknowledge the Hakeem played better in that series. He led his team to a sweep despite having the worse record, he played better with eye test, and he has a slight but obvious and significant statistical advantage. You said I didn't know anything about basketball. I don't understand why you would say mean things like that.

Why is Shaq higher on the all time list by most people's standards? Resume. The thing that is still separating Kobe from Lebron.

You Lebron fans are meanies. Im going to bed now.
Shaq is higher because he was clearly the better player. Same reason I put wilt over Russell. Wilt was just the better player who was stuck on inferior teams compared to russell.

[Rose'sACL]

Fox, Fisher, Kobe, Malone, Payton/ Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Fisher

Ginobli, Parker, Leanord, etc etc

We can do this all day.
You have also forgotten 2 really big names.
Phil Jackson and Gregg Popovich

[Mrofir]

Fox, Fisher, Kobe, Malone, Payton/ Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Fisher

Ginobli, Parker, Leanord, etc etc

We can do this all day.

Fox? Aren't you forgetting Adam Morrison?

You are including Kobe in your list. I mean, cmon.

On planet Earth there was a reaction to Lebron moving to Miami at the same time as Chris Bosh because it was thought that they had an immense talent advantage over the rest of the league. Then Ray Allen joined.

Lebron moved teams in calculated attempt to create a competitive advantage for himself, and Kobe stayed with the same franchise for his entire career. And you're arguing that Kobe had a front office advantage.

[aj1987]

Fox? Aren't you forgetting Adam Morrison?

You are including Kobe in your list. I mean, cmon.

On planet Earth there was a reaction to Lebron moving to Miami at the same time as Chris Bosh because it was thought that they had an immense talent advantage over the rest of the league. Then Ray Allen joined.

Lebron moved teams in calculated attempt to create a competitive advantage for himself, and Kobe stayed with the same franchise for his entire career. And you're arguing that Kobe had a front office advantage.
He had a top 5 GOAT since day one. Once he left, Kobe started throwing tantrums and threatened to leave until they acquired Gasol.

[Mrofir]

Meh you're right, Lebron hasn't had nearly as many chances to win as Kobe had. Hasn't had the teams, blabbity bla

Let's hope this year counts.

It's his only way to compete with Kobe on resume.

[ArbitraryWater]

Going 2-4 with Miami was not par dude. That was underwhelming considering the expectations they had going in. You don't sit there AFTER the fact and act like hindsight is 20/20.



But I will say this run with Cleveland and capping it off with a title is in fact the type of shit that does enhance a players legacy for sure. This would be impressive

How many players play at the level he did from 2011-2014? How many even make the finals in 2011, 2012, 2013?

[dh144498]

Lebron is already firmly in the top 10. A win here puts him at #7.

Current Top 10:
1)MJ
2)KAJ
3)Wilt
4)Russel
5)Magic
6)Bird
7)Duncan
8)Shaq
9)Lebron
10)Kobe

With a win Lebron bumps down Duncan and Shaq.

no.... if he beats the Warriors, he is top 3 all time, locked.

[Dresta]

Ok....? What's your point? According to that, Hakeem > Shaq (:oldlol: ). That article if form 2002, IIRC. I would rather pick Timmy or KG at the PF position. That team doesn't need much scoring, with Hakeem and MJ, and those two are among the GOAT defenders.
It would make sense to pick Hakeem over Shaq for an all-time great team (if you assume they'd actually have to play a game) - because they would be so good that hacking Shaq would screw them over. Shaq would be a liability for a team that good, unfortunately. That is just the one great gaping hole in his game, and it should be held against him.

[SwayDizzle]

LJ is GOAT #10 right now. He could possibly move up 2 spots with a championship this year.

[Asukal]

That moment when you realize that if lebaldo played up to his hype he'd have 4 championships already and a lock in top 5. :whatever::oldlol:

[Mrofir]

It's funny how the Lebron stans descended on this thread like locusts.


This was not an agenda driven thread. I think Lebron is an all time great, I'm just pointing out that to occupy that list you can't just be a really good player, you have to have the resume, something Lebron is working on. Otherwise Tmac, Dominique, Carmelo would be much higher. Barkley, Malone would have arguments for top 10. Making an argument for what player you'd pick on your team, you can choose anyone. Does anyone really think a team of prime Grant Hill, TMac, Barkley, Stockton, and D Howard would be destroyed by a team of top 10 players? I can think of many other superteams full of non top 10 players who would compete with anyone. Who you would take in a pickup game is not the criteria for top 10.

Only one way. Resume. If resumes don't matter, legacies don't matter.

I hadn't even decided who to root for yet, and rooting for Lebron to make history was and still is tempting. But these types of fans make it difficult to do that and really easy to root for GSW. You guys are really insecure if you can't accept the fact that your favorite player is on track to be an all time great, but needs more on his resume to secure his place in history. It looks like he will do it! Relax people.

[tmacattack33]

This is his best chance to cement his legacy firmly as a top 10 player of all time. When I say firmly I mean absolutely no arguments, even from haters.

His first finals series with Cleveland was excusable.

His 2-4 with Miami is shooting par.

If he wants to climb the ladder he has to deliver this year. If he wants to eventually finish firm top 5 he must deliver in Cleveland. Tall order -- Pretty interesting series I'd say.

:oldlol:

Man, he's already top 10.... if he wins this Finals as a 3 to 1 underdog he's coming for top 5.

[aj1987]

It would make sense to pick Hakeem over Shaq for an all-time great team (if you assume they'd actually have to play a game) - because they would be so good that hacking Shaq would screw them over. Shaq would be a liability for a team that good, unfortunately. That is just the one great gaping hole in his game, and it should be held against him.
I'm talking about all time, dude. Even then, MJ' team is messed up.

C - Shaq
PF - Duncan
SF - Pippen
SG - MJ
PG - Magic

That's literally the GOAT team. 3 GOAT defenders and the other 2 are in the top 5. Sure, you can replace Shaq with Hakeem, but the team with Shaq would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the team with Hakeem (the other players are the same).