MJ's former teammate: Lebron "absolutely" comparable to Michael at this stage

[chosen_one6]

Straight from Bill Cartwright. More and more current and former players saying the same thing. But lets not take their word for it, let's believe some loser on ISH that likes to troll and has never picked up a bball in their life :oldlol:


For five of his six seasons as a member of the Chicago Bulls, Bill Cartwright was Micheal Jordan's teammate. Those five Bulls teams -- between 1988-89 and 1992-'93 - lost twice to the Detroit "Bad Boy" Pistons in the Eastern Conference finals before winning three consecutive NBA championships, after which Jordan "retired" and sat out the 1993-'94 season.

Today, Cartwright -- a former center who played 15 NBA seasons, as well as a former head and assistant coach in the league -- is a successful entrepreneur still living in the Chicago area. He's following the current playoffs and like many observers, marvels at LeBron James, who has carried an injured Cleveland Cavaliers team with a rookie coach and a cast of castaways and playoff neophytes to the 2015 NBA Finals.

In sending Boston, Chicago and Atlanta fishin' for the summer, the Cavs have lost just two of 14 games, and James has averaged 27.6 points, 10.4 rebounds and 8.3 assists in just over 40 minutes.

Last week, I dared to intimate that now, as he caps his 12th season with his fifth consecutive trip to the NBA Finals and threatens to win his third championship ring, James is just as good as Michael Jordan.

Not surprisingly, the mere inference was thought by many to be heresy -- just read the comments on that story. So I reached out to Cartwright, whom I covered when he was a member of the New York Knicks and through his years with the Bulls.

Who better to assess the comparison than someone who battled with Jordan and remains a astute observer of the game?

As always, Cartwright was thoughtful and insightful.

"The big thing about LeBron," he began, "is he's one of rare guys where there's no position for him. He similar to maybe Magic [Johnson]. That's the best comparison because he can play one through five. What can't he do?

"Michael was basically a two-[guard]. What's LeBron? A one? A two? A three? You can't say. That's what makes him an anomaly; there's no match-up for him.

"Michael was as hard as anyone to guard. This guy [LeBron] is really unguardable. Who do you match him with? He's too darn big and too darn strong. Put a big guy on him and he goes around them. Put a small guy on him and he beats him up. He's a nightmare of a match-up."

Cartwright also brought up another significant factor in the comparison: The Cavs overall talent, especially when compared with the Bulls of that era.

"It's really remarkable what he's done there considering the questions marks [about the Cavs], from players to coaches," he said. "He's basically doing everything down there.

"He makes his teammates better, much better. And he is now a leader, the leader on that team.

"Look at Cleveland. Without, Michael, we still felt we could win [the NBA title], and took the Knicks to seven games [before losing] in ['93-'94] Eastern Conference championship. Could [the Cavs without LeBron] do that? I don't think so.

"And like a lot of [great players}, similar to Micheal, similar to [Julius] Doc [Erving], as his career has evolved LeBron became a better and better shooter. Not that they were great [shooters] but if they're on from outside you've got a problem.

So is LeBron comparable to Michael at this stage of his career?

"I would say absolutely, absolutely," Cartwright said.

"He's absolutely on best player on planet right now. I don't think you'd get much argument on that."

Beyond, improved shooting, Cartwright says LeBron had to learn how to win, and that leaving Cleveland for Miami, where he won two titles, played a vital role in that learning curve.

"Michael came into the league early [after his sophomore season at North Carolina]; LeBron and Kobe came in really early. [Both joined the NBA right out of high school.] They had to go through a period of maturing to be able to take on that kind of responsibility.

[B]"Heck, it took us two years to get past Detroit Pistons. Things were not always rose. Not easy. Even when we were winning, there was always doubts.

"LeBron had to leave [Cleveland] to get what he wanted, and to understand what it took to win, what kind of commitment it took to win. Now..."

"Appreciate the guy while he's here," he said. "He's pretty good."

[SexSymbol]

Comparable doesn't mean on the same level

[chosen_one6]

Comparable doesn't mean on the same level


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Synonyms
1. like, equal, equivalent, similar.

[SilkkTheShocker]

LeBron haters gon' be mad :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[SexSymbol]

I'd like to know what's comparable between them.
MJ shits on him based on accolades, individual play, peak and longevity. There's barely anything that LeBron can do better than MJ.
You'd have a better argument against Kobe, and even then, you'd still lose. LeBron just isn't that impactful

[J Shuttlesworth]

I just heard Jerry West on SC say "I don't know if I've ever seen a player as good as LeBron James"

[atljonesbro]

MJ stans are HEATED right now lmao

[J Shuttlesworth]

I'd like to know what's comparable between them.
MJ shits on him based on accolades, individual play, peak and longevity. There's barely anything that LeBron can do better than MJ.
You'd have a better argument against Kobe, and even then, you'd still lose. LeBron just isn't that impactful
Ok. I'll take your opinion on it over a professional NBA player who actually played with MJ. Your basement dwelling neckbeard opinion is quite valuable.

[upside24]

27 10 8 looks great and it is, but LeBron is shooting 42%.

What the ****? LeBron has been one of the most efficient scorers the 09 and suddenly his FG% has plummented.

I know he isn't hitting threes but what is the explanation for this. I'm not a LeBron hater. The 10 boards and 8 assists a game are impressive and I think a postseason high in both categories and he is carrying this team.

I just don't understand the dramatic decrease in efficiency.

I've missed a ton of Cavs games due to work but could someone explain this to me?

[chosen_one6]

I'd like to know what's comparable between them.
MJ shits on him based on accolades, individual play, peak and longevity. There's barely anything that LeBron can do better than MJ.
You'd have a better argument against Kobe, and even then, you'd still lose. LeBron just isn't that impactful

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Cleveland became a bottom feeder once he left.

5 straight finals appearances.

4 MVPs

Just isn't that much of an impact she says :roll: (impactful isnt a word)

Here, have some more...you don't have enough
http://cdn1.epictimes.com/jerrydoyle/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2015/03/salt.jpeg

[rzp]

I'd like to know what's comparable between them.
MJ shits on him based on accolades, individual play, peak and longevity. There's barely anything that LeBron can do better than MJ.
You'd have a better argument against Kobe, and even then, you'd still lose. LeBron just isn't that impactful

:blah

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Jordan > Duncan > LeBron > Kobe.




Tony Parker only likes the black jelly beans.

[Solefade]

tony kornheiser says that regardless of rings, he's the best player he's ever seen but does acknowledge that he needs 2 more rings to be really comparable to MJ

[J Shuttlesworth]

27 10 8 looks great and it is, but LeBron is shooting 42%.

What the ****? LeBron has been one of the most efficient scorers the 09 and suddenly his FG% has plummented.

I know he isn't hitting threes but what is the explanation for this. I'm not a LeBron hater. The 10 boards and 8 assists a game are impressive and I think a postseason high in both categories and he is carrying this team.

I just don't understand the dramatic decrease in efficiency.

I've missed a ton of Cavs games due to work but could someone explain this to me?
It's pretty simple. His jumper is broken. When he's in the post, he's quite efficient, but it's the jumpers that are bringing his FG% down. Not sure how that works since he was a great jump shooter the last couple years.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Comparable doesn't mean on the same level


http://skev.bloggsida.se/files/2012/01/retard-receiving-certificate-congratulations-youre-retarded.jpg

[HylianNightmare]

If he wins out in Cleveland he's comparable

[ISHGoat]

Laimbeer when asked who he would take in their primes:


“There’s no question I would take LeBron James,” Laimbeer said without hesitation. “He can do more. Michael Jordan could score and make big shots and look spectacular at times with wild flying dunks, but LeBron can get you 18 rebounds, get you 15 assists or score 50 if he wants to.
The triple threat the he poses is just phenomenal, and the size—he just physically dominates. It’s impressive.”

The LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan debate rages on
But what about the disparity in championships?

“Yeah, but look at what LeBron has in the Finals right now,” Laimbeer said. “Could anybody else in the world have led this team of role players to the finals right now? I don’t think so. Jordan could not have led this team to the finals.

“LeBron came into the league knowing how to play basketball and involve his teammates. Jordan had to learn that, and they had to assemble some great teammates around him in order for him to win.”

[chosen_one6]

Laimbeer when asked who he would take in their primes:

:applause:

Game recognize game

[LeBird]

To anyone with eyes and who isn't jacked up McDonalds and Gatorade it's obvious that Lebron is probably the best player that's ever played the game - and I'm a huge Bird homer who doesn't like saying that. People will argue the subjective argument re 'greatness' but those title winning feats have a lot to do with the right time and place.

The kids won't understand it as they're just hagging off Jordan's nuts; but you can still have Jordan as your favorite player and also appreciate Lebron. You'll only realise what a freak of nature he is once he's gone and no one else can do what he does.

[Megabox!]

Straight from Bill Cartwright. More and more current and former players saying the same thing. But lets not take their word for it, let's believe some loser on ISH that likes to troll and has never picked up a bball in their life :oldlol:
:applause: :applause: :applause: :bowdown:

[SexSymbol]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Cleveland became a bottom feeder once he left. Injuries, tanking

5 straight finals appearances. In objectively the weakest conference of all time

4 MVPs With the competition of old Kobe, who didn't give a **** about MVPs at that point and young Durant, who hadn't even reaches his peak yet, and still already has won a MVP over bron...

Just isn't that much of an impact she says :roll: (impactful isnt a word)


nikker u dumb

[G0ATbe]

Seems like everyone from the 80s/90s nowadays exposing Jordan as overrated, even his own teammates:applause: .

If these players honestly believe this then it's official, Kobe>MJ and its not close.

[Sarcastic]

To anyone with eyes and who isn't jacked up McDonalds and Gatorade it's obvious that Lebron is probably the best player that's ever played the game - and I'm a huge Bird homer who doesn't like saying that. People will argue the subjective argument re 'greatness' but those title winning feats have a lot to do with the right time and place.

The kids won't understand it as they're just hagging off Jordan's nuts; but you can still have Jordan as your favorite player and also appreciate Lebron. You'll only realise what a freak of nature he is once he's gone and no one else can do what he does.


I'm a HUGE Lebron homer, and I don't think he's the best player ever. I guess people will have a differing opinions on the subject.

[LeBird]

I'm a HUGE Lebron homer, and I don't think he's the player ever. I guess people will have a differing opinions on the subject.

Well, that's fair enough. You can tell the ones who simply defend or go on a tirade because of some childlish hero worship. That's what I have a problem with.

But I don't mind anyone calling anyone in a general handful of candidates (usually the GOAT candidates) the greatest as long as their are solid reasons. Opinions and all...

[Trollsmasher]

Straight from Bill Cartwright. More and more current and former players saying the same thing. But lets not take their word for it, let's believe some loser on ISH that likes to troll and has never picked up a bball in their life :oldlol:

"Look at Cleveland. Without, Michael, we still felt we could win [the NBA title], and took the Knicks to seven games [before losing] in ['93-'94] Eastern Conference championship. Could [the Cavs without LeBron] do that? I don't think so.
absolute ether:lebronamazed: :lebronamazed: :lebronamazed:

[Kblaze8855]

Quite a few players say things like this. Cartwright, West, Oscar, Laimbeer, and so on. Here is Larry Birds opinion from 4 years ago:



“He brought a lot of it on himself, but here’s what I feel about LeBron: he’s as good as anyone that’s ever played this game. I think he’s going to win a lot of titles; I think he’s going to continue to get better. To me, he’s an amazing athlete, he’s never been hurt, he’s got the body of a football player and he’s got skill. I just think he’s off the charts good.

And I think his time is going to come. I think they did a remarkable job in Miami this year bringing that team together and getting where they got. They’ll get better next year. Their time is going to come if he stays healthy, and he’s going to have a lot of success in this league and win championships.”


I always thought(and continue to think) he might catch MJ in accolades if he kept up his level of play but never catch him as a player. But it seems many players think hes caught him as a player...and just lacks he accolades.

[AirFederer]

Bill is salty.

6/6, eye test and superior stats say otherwise.

[chazzy]

To anyone with eyes and who isn't jacked up McDonalds and Gatorade it's obvious that Lebron is probably the best player that's ever played the game - and I'm a huge Bird homer who doesn't like saying that
There's a Le in your name and it's obvious to anyone with eyes that you're a bigger Lebron homer than anything. So that little qualifying statement at the end doesn't make you more objective :oldlol:

[Elosha]

Everyone can have their opinions on Lebron and MJ. It's certainly an interesting question, and not one that anyone can blow off as an unwarranted debate. But you can make the same comparisons for many all time greats and get many different answers from many knowledgeable players, coaches, and students of the game.

With Lebron though we seem to be stuck in a cyclical pattern and a prisoner of the moment mentality. When he's playing well and leading his team to the Finals, people start favorably comparing him to MJ and hinting that he's better or could become better. However, in the past if/when Lebron has failed - and let's be honest he's failed miserably at times on the big stage - people point out that he yet again cannot measure up to MJ's skill, willpower, heart/determination, etc. etc. So then he gets castigated for "choking," "giving up" or having holes in his game. Both the Lebron worship and mockery are often overblown.

We are stuck in yet another prisoner of the moment mentality. Win or lose this year, Lebron will either be hoisted well above what he deserves for a 3/6 champion, albeit one who has played extremely well under trying circumstances this year. Or, with a 2/6 Finals record, we will once again hear how he can never be as good as Jordan and/or other GOAT candidate, even if he plays extremely well in the Finals and still loses.

Lebron is an all time great and he may have a case as GOAT at the end of his career. Personally, I think he's not quite on MJ's level for a number of reasons I've reiterated before. But there can be reasonable differences of opinion.

Lastly, I would not put too much stock in what Cartwright or Laimbeer say. While they may think they are simply expressing their honest opinions, both of them are known to dislike Jordan intensely, and I think they would love any reason to find another player who is better. They are also just as susceptible to "prisoner of the moment" as any other human being.

[DJ Leon Smith]

http://skev.bloggsida.se/files/2012/01/retard-receiving-certificate-congratulations-youre-retarded.jpg

Jason Terry.

[pauk]

Ofcourse they are... looking at their impact, domination... simply them as talents, individual players...

[LeBird]

There's a Le in your name and it's obvious to anyone with eyes that you're a bigger Lebron homer than anything. So that little qualifying statement at the end doesn't make you more objective :oldlol:

The 'Le' part is a take on the fact that people didn't think Bird was the best physical specimen and it's quite clear that Lebron's the best there has been in the league. So in essence, a player that is essentially Bird but with Lebron's physical attributes i.e. the perfect player.

Not that I don't like Lebron - I like him a lot, he is a likeable guy and a great talent - I just don't like him anywhere near Bird and it's tough to admit that Lebron might indeed be the greatest SF ever. Which means I gotta put Bird at PF in my all-time team :lol

[bond10]

They do this every year with Kobe, Wade, Lebron etc...remember when Pippen said Lebron > MJ?

[oh the horror]

Sure they're comparable



Kobe was "comparable" as well. Doesn't mean they had the same career.



Dudes keep reaching with this but sorry kids. He ain't living up to Mike either.

[Da_Realist]

I always thought(and continue to think) he might catch MJ in accolades if he kept up his level of play but never catch him as a player.

I agree with this...


With Lebron though we seem to be stuck in a cyclical pattern and a prisoner of the moment mentality. When he's playing well and leading his team to the Finals, people start favorably comparing him to MJ and hinting that he's better or could become better. However, in the past if/when Lebron has failed - and let's be honest he's failed miserably at times on the big stage - people point out that he yet again cannot measure up to MJ's skill, willpower, heart/determination, etc. etc. So then he gets castigated for "choking," "giving up" or having holes in his game. Both the Lebron worship and mockery are often overblown.

We are stuck in yet another prisoner of the moment mentality. Win or lose this year, Lebron will either be hoisted well above what he deserves for a 3/6 champion, albeit one who has played extremely well under trying circumstances this year. Or, with a 2/6 Finals record, we will once again hear how he can never be as good as Jordan and/or other GOAT candidate, even if he plays extremely well in the Finals and still loses.

...and this.

I don't think 80's MJ would have many issues in a weakened eastern conference with rules that would play into his hands along with the extinction of the big man. Don't think Atlanta would have knocked him off.

On the other hand, I also don't think we would have seen the best of MJ either. MJ was quick enough to blow by his man and take advantage of the open lanes even when he was older. He would have been 89 Jordan for his whole career. MJ evolved as a player because the league forced him to. Today's league would have rewarded 89 MJ. No post game or polished footwork needed. Just aggression, quickness, leaping ability, a jumpshot and a willingness to pass when double-teamed.

[guy]

Prisoner of the moment. Has happened every time Lebron gets to the finals, which he's lost most of the time and then no one says anything like this. Plus, for every former player/coach that says this, there's at least 2-3 of them that would say otherwise, but there's not much reason for that to grab headlines. Also, even though the definition means equal, most people dont look at it that way.

By the way, it's interesting how the people saying this only refer to talent and physical capabilities, which is very understandable to compare. But none of these guys talk about the huge difference between these guys in the high leverage moments, mentally specifically. That's really the main reason why the argument for Lebron is weak.

And you can see in those quotes that both are salty, especially Laimbeer who basically just downplayed Jordan as not much more then a highlight reel player. And Cartwright didnt get along with Jordan.

[Rooster]

Ofcourse they are... looking at their impact, domination... simply them as talents, individual players...

What's his record against 50 wins team.

[Kblaze8855]

Prisoner of the moment. Has happened every time Lebron gets to the finals, which he's lost most of the time and then no one says anything like this.

Nah. Guys like bird, Jerry West, and Oscar have said it after he loses. The Bird quote I posted above was from like a week after the 11 finals. West was saying it on his first Cavs run. Most of these guys are evaluating the basketball player not talking career. Its media types more likely to get exciting about some looming career accolade. Bill, Bird, and Laimbeer are just talking basketball.

[JerrySeinfeld]

lol wasn't bill cartwright one of the guys that Jordan would basically bully in practice and during games tell teammates not to give him the ball because he couldn't catch

[Rolando]

You've got to try and withhold this discussion until after the finals. If Lebron wins this year, I think he's at least at the Magic/Bird level. If he can do it again, then and only then, can you start putting him near the Kareem/MJ stratospheric level.

Too soon.

[SexSymbol]

I think a lot of these players didn't get along with Jordan, because mostly they're ******* and they don't like to work hard, same as people who don't get along with Kobe.
It's easy, if you support mj/kobe, you're a hard working alpha who will succeed in life most of the time, if you support wilt/lebron, you're a beta, who will have to settle with a wife that looks like human garbage and fail more times than not

[Nash]

I'd like to know what's comparable between them.
MJ shits on him based on accolades, individual play, peak and longevity. There's barely anything that LeBron can do better than MJ.
You'd have a better argument against Kobe, and even then, you'd still lose. LeBron just isn't that impactful
I absolutely agree about Jordan, but pls. Lebron beats Kobe at every one of those things you just mentioned, except longevity for obvious reasons.

[Beastmode88]

Lol this is a joke right? How the hell are you going to compare basketball from 2 different eras. You cant even touch anyone nowadays and you would get fouled. Half of these flagrant fouls were touch fouls back in the day. The competition is not even comparable as well if you want to take a look at that. Jordon prevented people like barkley, stockton, malone, payton and many more from willing rings in their prime. Who the hell did lebron stop? A 22 year old kevin durant? 37 year old duncan? We seriously going to compare shit like that? Let's compare them when lebron's career is done. Note: Lebron will be in my top 10 if he wins this year.

[jimmy77x]

Sure they're comparable



Kobe was "comparable" as well. Doesn't mean they had the same career.



Dudes keep reaching with this but sorry kids. He ain't living up to Mike either.

Bran Stans want their hero to be on the same level as the goat so bad :lol it just pains them that he will NEVER get there. Bran will be completely irrelevant 20 years from now while the goat will still be goating, selling out shoes from the 80's and 90's in 2035 :oldlol:

[guy]

Nah. Guys like bird, Jerry West, and Oscar have said it after he loses. The Bird quote I posted above was from like a week after the 11 finals. West was saying it on his first Cavs run. Most of these guys are evaluating the basketball player not talking career. Its media types more likely to get exciting about some looming career accolade. Bill, Bird, and Laimbeer are just talking basketball.

Right. The talent and physical capabilities. That's comparable. They usually don't talk about the other intangible stuff which is the main reason why Lebron lost in 11 in the first place and why Jordan's career has been better.

Were the others right after? Wheres the West quote from? I remember him saying something along the same lines in 09, and then a week later saying Kobe was better. I really doubt these guys really care and think a whole about these arguments yet people use it as there gospel concrete opinion.

[KembaWalker]

At the end of the day some players pick LeBron, some pick MJ, it's all opinion

What's set in stone is the stats and accolades, once again AN opinion, LeBron ain't comparable to MJ right now

[Kingwillball]

I'd like to know what's comparable between them.
MJ shits on him based on accolades, individual play, peak and longevity. There's barely anything that LeBron can do better than MJ.
You'd have a better argument against Kobe, and even then, you'd still lose. LeBron just isn't that impactful

lol will easily go down as a better player than Kobe.

[wpdougie2180]

"Look at Cleveland. Without, Michael, we still felt we could win [the NBA title], and took the Knicks to seven games [before losing] in ['93-'94] Eastern Conference championship.

Not sure I can take his word on things back then if he can't even remember they lost in the ECSF & not the ECF

[TheMan]

LeBron haters gon' be mad :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
I don't consider myself a LeBron hater, otherwise I wouldn't be rooting for him in these Finals nor would I have been glad for him when he finally got his first chip. As a fan of the game since the mid/late 80s and being fortunate enough to have watched all the greats since then, I'm of the opinion that obviously LeBron is an all time great but he has yet to dominate on the level of MJ or Shaq. He's getting there though, especially if he wins it all this year. What I mean by dominating is not just getting to the Finals but finishing the job.

[Overdrive]

...Cartwright. That's like Smush saying Kobe sucks.

[jlip]

Quite a few players say things like this. Cartwright, West, Oscar, Laimbeer, and so on. Here is Larry Birds opinion from 4 years ago:





I always thought(and continue to think) he might catch MJ in accolades if he kept up his level of play but never catch him as a player. But it seems many players think hes caught him as a player...and just lacks he accolades.


Yeah. Coach Jim Boeheim said the same thing after the 2012 Olympics. From my thread on Boeheim's comments:


It seems as if the litmus test for greatness for basketball personalities (i.e. coaches and former players) is often different from that of fans. While as fans we go back and look at career accomplishments (i.e. how many MVPs, championships, "was he 'the man' for those championships", all star selections, stats titles, etc.), basketball personalities tend to look at the greats and judge by perceived talent and performance. The fact that legend X has 1 more MVP and 2 more rings than legend Y doesn't mean as much to them in the debate.

[TheMan]

Not sure I can take his word on things back then if he can't even remember they lost in the ECSF & not the ECF
I noticed that too:oldlol:

Everybody thinks those Bulls were a bad call away from an NBA title when they still had to get through the ECFs and prime Hakeem and the Rockets in the Finals :rolleyes:

[Solefade]

haha as soon as a person creditable enough to make a pro-lebron comment in regards to this debate, they're either salty or a nobody and their opinion doesn't matter

[AlphaWolf24]

Isn't Bron 30 years old....

I guess comparing each player at 30 years old, it's very debatable...

Bron has already had an alltime great career....arguably better then MJ at 30 ( career wise)

- Skill wise is also up for debate I guess.....MJ was just so dominant offensively/defensively....and Lebron with his ability to see the court as well as defend all areas of the floor....it depends on what you value most.

- The 1 thing that MJ holds over every player is the way he changed the "Game"...his "IT" factor or ability to market himself made his "on court" antics even greater...

He went from a amazing athlete " Air Jordan"...to a " Flu Ridden , sick Warrior, Clutch God who overcame being cut as a kid and told he wasn't good enough" to a 6X World Champion....

his Myth became legend and so far I don't really see any player having that much hype and delivering.


but pure basketball ....sure it's debatable for now.....both guys are amazing, amazing Basketball players....and Bron is still in his prime.

[chazzy]

Lebron hasn't done anything this year to change the LBJ vs MJ comparison, but this is an annual conversation when he makes the finals

[DMAVS41]

Lebron hasn't done anything this year to change the LBJ vs MJ comparison, but this is an annual conversation when he makes the finals

This.

But he does have the chance now. If he goes nuts in this series and completely dominates and wins it...he will have done something to that conversation.

[AlphaWolf24]

Lebron hasn't done anything this year to change the LBJ vs MJ comparison, but this is an annual conversation when he makes the finals


True to a certain extent.....I guess most fans look at the Finals as the end all be all ....the " Pinnacle of Pressure......the " peak of having all the weight on your shoulders".....and Jordan's teams always won in the Finals.

is it better to lose in the first round or make it to the Finals and lose?....

- to most fans ....Jordan always delivered when it mattered most....Bron hasn't ....not sure that's fair or 100% accurate....but it is understandable ( his time in Cleveland and Miami)..

[fragokota]

Lebron hasn't done anything this year to change the LBJ vs MJ comparison, but this is an annual conversation when he makes the finals

Even if he wins it this year it won't change anything in the MJ vs LBJ conversation. But as the poster above you wrote, the guy is still only 30 years old. Cut him some slack and let's judge him when it's all said and done.

[AlphaWolf24]

This.

But he does have the chance now. If he goes nuts in this series and completely dominates and wins it...he will have done something to that conversation.


so are we back to putting value on " winning titles again"...:confusedshrug:

[Overdrive]

haha as soon as a person creditable enough to make a pro-lebron comment in regards to this debate, they're either salty or a nobody and their opinion doesn't matter

Not really, West's and Bird's opinions don't have the same likelihood to be agenda-driven as Laimbeer's or Cartwright's. I absolutely respect and believe their pro-LeBron statements.

[TheMan]

Not really, West's and Bird's opinions don't have the same likelihood to be agenda-driven as Laimbeer's or Cartwright's. I absolutely respect and believe their pro-LeBron statements.
This

It's like if the Truth and Jo Noah said James was overrated and take it as gospel and not consider the source/history. :lol

[OldSchoolBBall]

I honestly have no idea how anyone who has played and who really KNOWS basketball could think that Lebron is a better player than Jordan. To me the difference is clear. Not huge, but clear. When I watch Lebron, I see an amazing player - a top 7 talent of all time at a minimum - but I don't see basketball being played at the highest level I've ever seen. I don't see the best player to ever play the game. That would be Jordan.

[bitedez]

Comparable doesn't mean on the same level

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Kblaze8855]

I dont agree with Bird, Bill, Oscar, Laimbeer and so on but I also wont act like my opinion is more valid or I know something they dont. We are talking 150 years of playing on the highest level, coaching, and generally watching and being around the game and the people in question. They flat out do know these people better than we do. And I wont boil it down to "hate" or anything foolish like that to get out of thinking about it either.

I think so many players say things like this....because they just dont look at it the way years of conditioning has taught fans to see greatness. They dont talk all nba teams....how many rings ____ needs to be as good as ____. Some of the high ring count guys will mention it to kinda piss off their old foes. But you get them talking beyond the basics...really talking ball?

They think a lot of people are as good as guys history wont compare them to. You start hearing guys explain that Bernard King was as good as anyone in the NBA. Or saying Moses was better than Magic, Bird, and Kareem(not the least bit unusual). A lot of people who saw all the greats would tell you David Thompson was the best 2 guard ever until Jordan. These guys are sitting courtside watching Jordan play the Hawks...and Nique drop 57 on Pippen and Jordan and get the W. Jordan ranked #1 all time...Nique wasnt even put in the top 50.

How much does that matter during a basketball game?

They all come up seeing rankings...best in your city....state...conference....the nation...best in the draft...best rookies...all NBA. MVP. Finals MVP.

And you know what?

I bet every one of them was at one time or another better than someone who got all the accolades at the time. Better than someone they were told "Yea but....____ won ___ so...." about. They spend their lives on the floor outplaying or hanging with guys who got all the love....and they see that the game isnt those rankings. It isnt who made all ACC. It isnt who got that award you didnt. It isnt who is 4star while you are 3. Who won how many titles. What they have to do before they can be compared to....whoever.

They hear that ____ is the best in the ____ then they play...outplay them...and its just another guy from then on.

They look at it on the bottom line.

We go play a game....who is the best?

So they see Lebron....and they see what hes capable of...on the floor. They see someone in Karl Malones body with guard skills who can shoot 3s or go have 15 assists.

They see that hes a freak of nature....they dont give a **** how many times he was named ____ or how many rings he has. That doesnt matter during a basketball game.

Thats greatness...the ever abstract greatness. That isnt who the best basketball player is.

Im sure all of them played someone "greater" and sent them home with the L and it just doesnt matter to them like it does us.

And with that mentality I can see how say....Jerry Sloan had Bird as the GOAT before he even won a ring. I can see how guys had Jordan as the best ever in 1987 when hed accomplished nothing.

And I can see how they look at it....

Put Lebron on the floor against anyone who ever played...give them similar talent to work with...is anyones team just a lock to beat his? Is he gonna get owned and look miles worse on average? I kinda doubt it. Single game?

Lebron could do doubt outplay Jordan. Plenty of people did. Nobody has the best game every night. And put in the same league? They would both get talk as the best player in the league.

If you think Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Drob and Barkley didnt have people saying they were the best in the league some years Jordan was running wild...you just dont remember the time in question.

Lebron would be in the group with them....and he would have his guys in the league...in the coaching ranks...in the stands...saying hes the best player in the world.


The difference between the all time elites and all time great players isnt that great on the floor.


Looking at it that way.....the bottom line when we all go play who stands out way?

It makes more sense.

I still dont see how he catches Jordan in ability because of Jordans better overall scoring and more consistent defense.

But you could give them the same teammates.....and the teams could win the same number of games and anyone could win a series.

The difference in greatness is greater than the difference in basketball ability.

The difference in ability id say isnt huge...but Jordan is the clear choice. Kinda like how 9 isnt way more than 8....but its indisputably more.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

:applause:

[Da_Realist]

Well said Blaze

[Dragonyeuw]

I dont agree with Bird, Bill, Oscar, Laimbeer and so on but I also wont act like my opinion is more valid or I know something they dont. We are talking 150 years of playing on the highest level, coaching, and generally watching and being around the game and the people in question. They flat out do know these people better than we do. And I wont boil it down to "hate" or anything foolish like that to get out of thinking about it either.

I think so many players say things like this....because they just dont look at it the way years of conditioning has taught fans to see greatness. They dont talk all nba teams....how many rings ____ needs to be as good as ____. Some of the high ring count guys will mention it to kinda piss off their old foes. But you get them talking beyond the basics...really talking ball?

They think a lot of people are as good as guys history wont compare them to. You start hearing guys explain that Bernard King was as good as anyone in the NBA. Or saying Moses was better than Magic, Bird, and Kareem(not the least bit unusual). A lot of people who saw all the greats would tell you David Thompson was the best 2 guard ever until Jordan. These guys are sitting courtside watching Jordan play the Hawks...and Nique drop 57 on Pippen and Jordan and get the W. Jordan ranked #1 all time...Nique wasnt even put in the top 50.

How much does that matter during a basketball game?

They all come up seeing rankings...best in your city....state...conference....the nation...best in the draft...best rookies...all NBA. MVP. Finals MVP.

And you know what?

I bet every one of them was at one time or another better than someone who got all the accolades at the time. Better than someone they were told "Yea but....____ won ___ so...." about. They spend their lives on the floor outplaying or hanging with guys who got all the love....and they see that the game isnt those rankings. It isnt who made all ACC. It isnt who got that award you didnt. It isnt who is 4star while you are 3. Who won how many titles. What they have to do before they can be compared to....whoever.

They hear that ____ is the best in the ____ then they play...outplay them...and its just another guy from then on.

They look at it on the bottom line.

We go play a game....who is the best?

So they see Lebron....and they see what hes capable of...on the floor. They see someone in Karl Malones body with guard skills who can shoot 3s or go have 15 assists.

They see that hes a freak of nature....they dont give a **** how many times he was named ____ or how many rings he has. That doesnt matter during a basketball game.

Thats greatness...the ever abstract greatness. That isnt who the best basketball player is.

Im sure all of them played someone "greater" and sent them home with the L and it just doesnt matter to them like it does us.

And with that mentality I can see how say....Jerry Sloan had Bird as the GOAT before he even won a ring. I can see how guys had Jordan as the best ever in 1987 when hed accomplished nothing.

And I can see how they look at it....

Put Lebron on the floor against anyone who ever played...give them similar talent to work with...is anyones team just a lock to beat his? Is he gonna get owned and look miles worse on average? I kinda doubt it. Single game?

Lebron could do doubt outplay Jordan. Plenty of people did. Nobody has the best game every night. And put in the same league? They would both get talk as the best player in the league.

If you think Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Drob and Barkley didnt have people saying they were the best in the league some years Jordan was running wild...you just dont remember the time in question.

Lebron would be in the group with them....and he would have his guys in the league...in the coaching ranks...in the stands...saying hes the best player in the world.


The difference between the all time elites and all time great players isnt that great on the floor.


Looking at it that way.....the bottom line when we all go play who stands out way?

It makes more sense.

I still dont see how he catches Jordan in ability because of Jordans better overall scoring and more consistent defense.

But you could give them the same teammates.....and the teams could win the same number of games and anyone could win a series.

The difference in greatness is greater than the difference in basketball ability.

The difference in ability id say isnt huge...but Jordan is the clear choice. Kinda like how 9 isnt way more than 8....but its indisputably more.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Blue&Orange]

Kobe was not just absolutely comparable to Jordan he was declared better than Jordan a few years ago, now he is out of the top10.

[JohnFreeman]

Comparable doesn't mean on the same level
:facepalm

[Solefade]

Kobe was not just absolutely comparable to Jordan he was declared better than Jordan a few years ago, now he is out of the top10.


declared better than jordan by who? i want some names and sources

[Blue&Orange]

declared better than jordan by who? i want some names and sources
april 2013 lol

[Solefade]

april 2013 lol


answer the question lmao stop dodging it



knicks fan lol what a joke

[Blue&Orange]

lol of the LEbron's 34 FGM only one wasn't a layup or a dunk
This comment was made by a lebronstan cavs-hawks gamethread.


Why wouldn't a guy that can only make layups be compared to Jordan, for winning with the most stacked team in the NBA in the east 2015.

:confusedshrug:

[Blue&Orange]

answer the question lmao stop dodging it



knicks fan lol what a joke
I don't know if you are retarded dumb or both. do you know what google is u dumb redneck?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVWFIGhD980
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckXT-d0pFPg


i will be lmao when Leborn is 36 old and in nobodys top15 but lebrontards.

[Solefade]

I don't know if you are retarded dumb or both. do you know what google is u dumb redneck?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVWFIGhD980
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckXT-d0pFPg


i will be lmao when Leborn is 36 old and in nobodys top15 but lebrontards.


are you dumb? mark jackson made a retarded claim and pippen immediately shot it down..he said it's not even a comparison lmao

meanwhile pippen has mentioned that lebron is comparable to MJ

god you dumbass knicks fans lmao

[Blue&Orange]

mark jackson made a retarded claim
Saying Kobe is the goat after scoring 81 points, 62 int 3 quarters, retarded claim.
Saying Lebron is the goat after scoring 30 points in 40% all layups, absolutely sensible.

:applause:

[DirkNowitzki41]

MJ and Kobe stans are HEATED and SALTY AF :oldlol:

sorry folks, LeBron is legit right up there when it comes to being the greatest player of all time.

[tpols]

How can 2/6 be > 6/6?

:rolleyes:

[oarabbus]

How can 2/6 be > 6/6?

:rolleyes:


Yeah, Robert Horry > Kobe.

How can 5/7 be > 7/7?

[Solefade]

Saying Kobe is the goat after scoring 81 points, 62 int 3 quarters, retarded claim.
Saying Lebron is the goat after scoring 30 points in 40% all layups, absolutely sensible.

:applause:

sorry but when did i say mark jackson made a retarded claim? it's wrong but not retarded

the right hand man of MJ himself shot down the comparison between MJ and Kobe and said LeBron is comparable to MJ? is that so hard for you to comprehend?

[DMAVS41]

He's never reached the dominance of peak MJ...

Lebron really can only reach MJ level as a basketball player with his longevity and consistency unless we see some new things on the court from him.

That isn't a knock...part of being a great player is being consistently good for years and years and years....and if Lebron plays like 20 years and wins a few more and continues to play great...

That is where the argument will be had.

But in terms of dominance at their peaks? Please...It's MJ

[tpols]

Yeah, Robert Horry > Kobe.

How can 5/7 be > 7/7?

Robert Horry argument.... really. Do we have to hash this out like children ?

[K Xerxes]

He's never reached the dominance of peak MJ...

Lebron really can only reach MJ level as a basketball player with his longevity and consistency unless we see some new things on the court from him.

That isn't a knock...part of being a great player is being consistently good for years and years and years....and if Lebron plays like 20 years and wins a few more and continues to play great...

That is where the argument will be had.

But in terms of dominance at their peaks? Please...It's MJ

The only thing he'll surpass MJ in is total accumulated stats and stuff like first team awards and player of the months. Possibly MVPs, although I think there's a real chance he won't win another one again. Other than that, he's not going to surpass MJ in rings or FMVPs, and, yes, he never reached the level that peak or prime MJ did. That's not to say that LeBron has had a disappointing career. He has fulfilled everything that I had hoped from him and it's a privilege to watch one of the GOATs play. But he is not the GOAT. Top 5 is still possible.

He is comparable to MJ in the sense that he is an ATG and the greatest of his generation. Nothing more.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Robert Horry argument.... really. Do we have to hash this out like children ?

That's exactly what you did...boiled down entire careers to ring count.

I'm taking Jordan > LeBron but to think that rings are all that there is to such an argument is either legitimately stupid or intentionally ignorant.

[Solefade]

That's exactly what you did...boiled down entire careers to ring count.

I'm taking Jordan > LeBron but to think that rings are all that there is to such an argument is either legitimately stupid or intentionally ignorant.


i hate the ring argument (not because i'm a lebron fan), if it was rings then why isn't bill russell considered the GOAT?

what if your ownership sucks, your coach sucks, and your GM is incapable of putting a good team around you?

[Blue&Orange]

sorry but when did i say mark jackson made a retarded claim?


mark jackson made a retarded claim and pippen immediately shot it down..


...

[Solefade]

...


:roll:

i'm still right tho

[tpols]

1
That's exactly what you did...boiled down entire careers to ring count.

I'm taking Jordan > LeBron but to think that rings are all that there is to such an argument is either legitimately stupid or intentionally ignorant.

ring count/high ring opportunity x quality player*

MJ 6/6 * 10 = 10
Kobe 5/7 * 9 = 6
Lebron 2/6 * 9 = 3




*Disclaimer: Only players with combination of fmvp, mvp, and HOF achievement (RS + playoff dominance) qualify for formula

[24-Inch_Chrome]

ring count/high ring opportunity x quality player*

MJ 6/6 * 10 = 10
Kobe 5/7 * 9 = 6
Lebron 2/6 * 9 = 3

Disclaimer: Only players with combination of fmvp, mvp, and HOF qualify (RS + playoff dominance) qualify for formula


Jordan > Duncan > LeBron > Kobe doe.

Your "formula" is an insult to intelligent, rational thought. Not that you'd know much about that, being a hardcore player stan and all.

[DonDadda59]

Nigguhs never learn man :lol

Last time a Jordan teammate spoke out on the same bullshit, it was Mr. Passive-Aggressive himself AKA Scottie Pippen saying Bran>MJ.

That was on the eve of the 2011 Finals. The new GOAT went ahead and got outscored in the series by a midget coming off the bench.

True Story.

[fragokota]

Yeah, Robert Horry > Kobe.

How can 5/7 be > 7/7?


Robert Horry argument.... really. Do we have to hash this out like children ?


1

ring count/high ring opportunity x quality player*

MJ 6/6 * 10 = 10
Kobe 5/7 * 9 = 6
Lebron 2/6 * 9 = 3




*Disclaimer: Only players with combination of fmvp, mvp, and HOF achievement (RS + playoff dominance) qualify for formula


:oldlol: :oldlol: :facepalm

[bobeticus]

Well, that's fair enough. You can tell the ones who simply defend or go on a tirade because of some childlish hero worship. That's what I have a problem with.

But I don't mind anyone calling anyone in a general handful of candidates (usually the GOAT candidates) the greatest as long as their are solid reasons. Opinions and all...

rightly said dude...

btw... you can have both as your favorite player... :rockon:

[sportjames23]

Nigguhs never learn man :lol

Last time a Jordan teammate spoke out on the same bullshit, it was Mr. Passive-Aggressive himself AKA Scottie Pippen saying Bran>MJ.

That was on the eve of the 2011 Finals. The new GOAT went ahead and got outscored in the series by a midget coming off the bench.

True Story.


I see a repeat of that happening.

[oarabbus]

Robert Horry argument.... really. Do we have to hash this out like children ?


Ok, fine. Doesn't change the fact that LeBron is more on MJ's level than Kobe was, is, or will ever be. I'll be real - Kobe is an all time great and a legend. If someone has him in their top 10 I can respect that.

But Kobe ALWAYS had a dominant big who played well to go with him. Shaq, and Pau. Obviously Kobe is better than Pau, doesn't mean you can discount what a huge beast Pau was during those rings they won. Kobe is a huge part of the teams success. The "Kobe was carried" nonsense is just that, Kobe is the reason they got the rings. He went out and grabbed them.

Still though, on the other hand... LeBron IS. That's it. There is nothing on the Cavs without LeBron.

JR Smith? Iman Shumpert?

JR Smith is a guy who went from this during the playoffs

http://d13beo3f7vpmvd.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/jrsmithsmall.jpg


To a guy scoring all of the Cavs bench points in the ECF. I mean that literally, JR Smith put up all 28 of the Cavs' bench points in their closeout win over the Hawks. This is a guy who's idea of defense 1 year ago was to untie the shoelaces of a player during a free throw. Iman Shumpert was the "overrated Knicks player" that the Knicks traded just to get Cleveland to take JR.

Mozgov? Did you watch him on the Nuggets? You hoped you'd get 7 points and 8 boards in the guy. Now, he's getting double doubles.
Tristan Thompson has been a solid rebounder at least 2 years now but you weren't seeing these kinds of dunks and energy as frequently. Love has been out all playoffs, and yet they still breeze through teams without much of an issue. Admittedly they are East teams, but ones with a good record, and in the playoffs.

Cleveland was a 33-49 team last year that missed the playoffs, with Kyrie Irving at the helm. This year they were a 53 win team, despite losing a good amount of games when LeBron was out.

Which JR do you think comes playing next to Kobe, the one untying shoes and partying during the playoffs? Or the one catching the cross-court assist, raining stepback 3s all throughout the ECF last week?

What happened to Miami after bran leaves? Yes, Bosh was out a good part of the season. Yes, Wade was hurt. But they still picked up Dragic, a huge upgrade at PG, and Whiteside who was a revelation at C.

At the end of the day, they go from a 54 win team to a 37 win team, missing the playoffs.

LeBron's impact on a team is simply on a level we have not witnessed in a while.

You can't say Kobe is better than LeBron "because 5/7 is better than 2/6" and then turn around and call the Horry argument childish.

[TheBigVeto]

...Cartwright. That's like Smush saying Kobe sucks.

Smush and Cartwright both made valid comments.

Cartwright does have more credibility than Smush because:
1. He stood up to Jordan when Jordan was trying to act like a tough guy
2. He never played for the Lakers

[Mr Feeny]

Smush and Cartwright both made valid comments.

Cartwright does have more credibility than Smush because:
1. He stood up to Jordan when Jordan was trying to act like a tough guy
2. He never played for the Lakers

Cartright has more credibility because he.......fought with the guy he's denigrating?
And because he didn't play for the Lakers?

This post makes a lot of sense.

[Budadiiii]

lol wasn't bill cartwright one of the guys that Jordan would basically bully in practice and during games tell teammates not to give him the ball because he couldn't catch
:lol :lol :lol :lol

my bully victims will be doing the same shit 10 years from now when talking about the greatest posters ever.

its well known im the best poster in this sites history. so any time a new poster with promise comes around posters like dubeta and cocaine80's will be all over their ***** trying to proclaim them as the goat.

[diamenz]

'the decision', and the eye test don't tell me so.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Based on what? Beating the Bulls and the Hawks?

Neither were going to win the championship.

Moreover...LeBrons ts% in these playoffs is actually lower than even Kobe's worst playoff ts%, and hes averaging almost 5 turnovers a game.

So, no. I won't say hes comparable to Jordan on the basis of THIS playoff run.

[Mr Feeny]

:lol :lol :lol :lol

my bully victims will be doing the same shit 10 years from now when talking about the greatest posters ever.

its well known im the best poster in this sites history. so any time a new poster with promise comes around posters like dubeta and cocaine80's will be all over their ***** trying to proclaim them as the goat.

Hey hillbilly. My niece put in a show called prison break last night. I had never see it before. There is a southern inmate in there. One of the main leads, who calls himself tea-bag. Seeing as he is one of your ilk, do you mind telling me what accent that's from? Is it Alabama?

[tpols]

Ok, fine. Doesn't change the fact that LeBron is more on MJ's level than Kobe was, is, or will ever be. I'll be real - Kobe is an all time great and a legend. If someone has him in their top 10 I can respect that.

But Kobe ALWAYS had a dominant big who played well to go with him. Shaq, and Pau. Obviously Kobe is better than Pau, doesn't mean you can discount what a huge beast Pau was during those rings they won. Kobe is a huge part of the teams success. The "Kobe was carried" nonsense is just that, Kobe is the reason they got the rings. He went out and grabbed them.

Still though, on the other hand... LeBron IS. That's it. There is nothing on the Cavs without LeBron.

JR Smith? Iman Shumpert?

JR Smith is a guy who went from this during the playoffs

http://d13beo3f7vpmvd.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/jrsmithsmall.jpg


To a guy scoring all of the Cavs bench points in the ECF. I mean that literally, JR Smith put up all 28 of the Cavs' bench points in their closeout win over the Hawks. This is a guy who's idea of defense 1 year ago was to untie the shoelaces of a player during a free throw. Iman Shumpert was the "overrated Knicks player" that the Knicks traded just to get Cleveland to take JR.

Mozgov? Did you watch him on the Nuggets? You hoped you'd get 7 points and 8 boards in the guy. Now, he's getting double doubles.
Tristan Thompson has been a solid rebounder at least 2 years now but you weren't seeing these kinds of dunks and energy as frequently. Love has been out all playoffs, and yet they still breeze through teams without much of an issue. Admittedly they are East teams, but ones with a good record, and in the playoffs.

Cleveland was a 33-49 team last year that missed the playoffs, with Kyrie Irving at the helm. This year they were a 53 win team, despite losing a good amount of games when LeBron was out.

Which JR do you think comes playing next to Kobe, the one untying shoes and partying during the playoffs? Or the one catching the cross-court assist, raining stepback 3s all throughout the ECF last week?

What happened to Miami after bran leaves? Yes, Bosh was out a good part of the season. Yes, Wade was hurt. But they still picked up Dragic, a huge upgrade at PG, and Whiteside who was a revelation at C.

At the end of the day, they go from a 54 win team to a 37 win team, missing the playoffs.

LeBron's impact on a team is simply on a level we have not witnessed in a while.

You can't say Kobe is better than LeBron "because 5/7 is better than 2/6" and then turn around and call the Horry argument childish.

Kobes always needed a great big man.. because hes always played in a dominant conference loaded with great big men.

Kobe has carried teams even worse than the current cavs to 45 wins in a loaded conferemce.. shumpert, delly, Tristan and Mozgov are an incredible defensive and rebounding supporting cast..Kwame luke smush? Shit defenders. That's half the battle gone right there.


If we could do an experiment..

Peak kobe/peak odom + whatever scrubs vs 2015 celtics, 2015 bulls with pau out/hurt and rose horribly inconsistent, and straight up imploding hawks.. instead of having to face a stacked peaking suns team ? Kobe/odom could lead that team to a finals too.


If you put virtually any top 25 goat player in this eastern conference.. give them an elite defender/rebounder at every position, a good coach and the east playoff schedule.. all of them would have a great shot at making the finals.


If you put 06 dirk with Josh howard and Devin Harris as his dudes who beat a prime spurs team.. and let them face the hawks instead.:lol that's a guaran teed finals berth.

The ONLY all nba player bron has seen so far.. was an injured old pau gasol. Let that sink in..... while kobe had to face 2-3 all nba ers on a team in just one series.

If lebron was in the west and had to face off with San Antonio in the first round and got bounced.. none of this talk exists. And that's why the comparison you're making is a false equivalency.

[dh144498]

lol @ the big men argument against Kobe. Only MJ has won without a dominant big man, even against dominant big men on the opposition, because he is MJ.
Kobe had to go through Duncan, who many consider the best player in the 2000s. Who did Lebron face in the playoffs with a dominant big, that he won? Kevin Garnett? nope. Joakim Noah? LOL. Look at what happened when lebron faced the Spurs 3 times? Without Ray Allen bailing him out he would be 0-3.

[Solefade]

Ok, fine. Doesn't change the fact that LeBron is more on MJ's level than Kobe was, is, or will ever be. I'll be real - Kobe is an all time great and a legend. If someone has him in their top 10 I can respect that.

But Kobe ALWAYS had a dominant big who played well to go with him. Shaq, and Pau. Obviously Kobe is better than Pau, doesn't mean you can discount what a huge beast Pau was during those rings they won. Kobe is a huge part of the teams success. The "Kobe was carried" nonsense is just that, Kobe is the reason they got the rings. He went out and grabbed them.

Still though, on the other hand... LeBron IS. That's it. There is nothing on the Cavs without LeBron.

JR Smith? Iman Shumpert?

JR Smith is a guy who went from this during the playoffs

http://d13beo3f7vpmvd.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/jrsmithsmall.jpg


To a guy scoring all of the Cavs bench points in the ECF. I mean that literally, JR Smith put up all 28 of the Cavs' bench points in their closeout win over the Hawks. This is a guy who's idea of defense 1 year ago was to untie the shoelaces of a player during a free throw. Iman Shumpert was the "overrated Knicks player" that the Knicks traded just to get Cleveland to take JR.

Mozgov? Did you watch him on the Nuggets? You hoped you'd get 7 points and 8 boards in the guy. Now, he's getting double doubles.
Tristan Thompson has been a solid rebounder at least 2 years now but you weren't seeing these kinds of dunks and energy as frequently. Love has been out all playoffs, and yet they still breeze through teams without much of an issue. Admittedly they are East teams, but ones with a good record, and in the playoffs.

Cleveland was a 33-49 team last year that missed the playoffs, with Kyrie Irving at the helm. This year they were a 53 win team, despite losing a good amount of games when LeBron was out.

Which JR do you think comes playing next to Kobe, the one untying shoes and partying during the playoffs? Or the one catching the cross-court assist, raining stepback 3s all throughout the ECF last week?

What happened to Miami after bran leaves? Yes, Bosh was out a good part of the season. Yes, Wade was hurt. But they still picked up Dragic, a huge upgrade at PG, and Whiteside who was a revelation at C.

At the end of the day, they go from a 54 win team to a 37 win team, missing the playoffs.

LeBron's impact on a team is simply on a level we have not witnessed in a while.

You can't say Kobe is better than LeBron "because 5/7 is better than 2/6" and then turn around and call the Horry argument childish.


real shit :applause:

[Solefade]

lol @ the big men argument against Kobe. Only MJ has won without a dominant big man, even against dominant big men on the opposition, because he is MJ.
Kobe had to go through Duncan, who many consider the best player in the 2000s. Who did Lebron face in the playoffs with a dominant big, that he won? Kevin Garnett? nope. Joakim Noah? LOL. Look at what happened when lebron faced the Spurs 3 times? Without Ray Allen bailing him out he would be 0-3.


Why are KG and Joakim funny mentions? They're both DPOY lol.

And MJ never played with a dominant bigs? So Horace Grant and Rodman were nobodies? smh

[PP34Deuce]

Comparable is right. If you had to choose between 18 year old Lebron James and 22 year old Michael Jordan, Most would pick Lebron.

6'8 260 built to play a long time and a freak athlete vs 6'6 200 pound amazing scorer with great defense.

Lebron can make rebuilding so much easier because he can do everything on the court. Bill Cartwright and Laimbeer both mentioned Lebron is like Magic. They really had no position but yet had amazing impact on the game. Lebron can get set the tone like a PG, anchor your defense, and score your key buckets all in the flow of the game.

While you can say he's magic, he's much more athletic and better scoring than magic. You can say he's Pippen, but he's bigger than Pippen while being more athletic. He has rare instances where he dominates in scoring. We have never seen a Lebron James in the league before.

[sportjames23]

Comparable is right. If you had to choose between 18 year old Lebron James and 22 year old Michael Jordan, Most would pick Lebron.

6'8 260 built to play a long time and a freak athlete vs 6'6 200 pound amazing scorer with great defense.

Lebron can make rebuilding so much easier because he can do everything on the court. Bill Cartwright and Laimbeer both mentioned Lebron is like Magic. They really had no position but yet had amazing impact on the game. Lebron can get set the tone like a PG, anchor your defense, and score your key buckets all in the flow of the game.

While you can say he's magic, he's much more athletic and better scoring than magic. You can say he's Pippen, but he's bigger than Pippen while being more athletic. He has rare instances where he dominates in scoring. We have never seen a Lebron James in the league before.


And yet, he hasn't dominated like MJ or Magic did. He hasn't put fear into his opponents like MJ and Magic did. Hell, he gets clowned on by scrubs.

Funny how you stans are quick to jump on the side of any old player who had issues with MJ (certain ex-Pistons or former teammates with a grudge) but ignore those old players who reject the notion that Lebron is on MJ's level (Magic, Barkley, Bird, hell, even Isaiah Thomas).

Laimbeer and Salley say Lebron is as good as or better than MJ?

"See, they know what they're talking about!"

Isaiah Thomas says "Slow ya roll! Lebron ain't on that level."

*crickets*

Bill Cartwright says Lebron is comparable to MJ?

"And Bill played with MJ, so his opinion is legit!"

Horace Grant says "Check ya neck! MJ is still GOAT."

*silence*


You mugs kill me with your agendas.

[stanlove1111]

I don't understand how someone could have a real strong opinion either way on this. Its hard to compare someone you are watching today with what you remember 20 years ago.

Lebron- So good you can put him basically with the weakest team in the league and he is going to contend year after year. That's how good he is. Failed to win title in 2011 which is the only year he failed to do something that he should have if the ATG. Is a pass first type a guy but can put up a ton of points whenever he wants to. Can shut down basically anyone on defense.

Jordan. If you surrounded him with a really good team he will get the title almost everytime. Put him on a weak team and he goes nowhere and I mean nowhere. Probably the best scorer ever. Maybe the best defensive guard ever.

Not sure how anyone can look at this and have a strong opinion about whos better.

[DMAVS41]

Kobes always needed a great big man.. because hes always played in a dominant conference loaded with great big men.

Kobe has carried teams even worse than the current cavs to 45 wins in a loaded conferemce.. shumpert, delly, Tristan and Mozgov are an incredible defensive and rebounding supporting cast..Kwame luke smush? Shit defenders. That's half the battle gone right there.


If we could do an experiment..

Peak kobe/peak odom + whatever scrubs vs 2015 celtics, 2015 bulls with pau out/hurt and rose horribly inconsistent, and straight up imploding hawks.. instead of having to face a stacked peaking suns team ? Kobe/odom could lead that team to a finals too.


If you put virtually any top 25 goat player in this eastern conference.. give them an elite defender/rebounder at every position, a good coach and the east playoff schedule.. all of them would have a great shot at making the finals.


If you put 06 dirk with Josh howard and Devin Harris as his dudes who beat a prime spurs team.. and let them face the hawks instead.:lol that's a guaran teed finals berth.

The ONLY all nba player bron has seen so far.. was an injured old pau gasol. Let that sink in..... while kobe had to face 2-3 all nba ers on a team in just one series.

If lebron was in the west and had to face off with San Antonio in the first round and got bounced.. none of this talk exists. And that's why the comparison you're making is a false equivalency.

This. This. This.

The more I really think about this post MJ era...I think I might need to really think hard about how I view some players.

As crazy as it sounds. I think I under-rate KG, Duncan, Kobe, and Dirk a bit...and I might need to admit I over-rate Lebron and Wade a little.

Those ELO ratings that came out of 538 aren't perfect...and I have some serious questions about them, but looking at those and realizing just how hard some guys had it. Just...

You said it well. The truth? The ****ing 06 Lakers would have at worst made the ECF this year with a decent shot at making the Finals. Same thing with the 07 Lakers. I mean...what do we do when the competition is so messed up.

Here is another thought experiment.

According to ELO at 538...the Mavs from 00 through 12 had the 6th best run in terms of rating compared to competition in NBA history.

Now, they had 11 straight 50 win season, 3 WCF, 2 finals, and a title. So it was great regardless of the conference...

BUT...

Imagine if the 00 through 12 Mavs had played in the East and the Heat were in the West during that time.

You are looking at a team that might make an absurd amount of finals and probably wins at least 1 more title.

So you probably have a realistic run of something like:

6 finals, 2 or 3 titles, one of the highest win percentages over a decade in NBA history...a couple more 65 plus win seasons.

NBA history would just look so different.

You could play this game with many other teams as well like the Suns and Kings...

Too much is based on this conference shit. Has to change.

[Solefade]

And yet, he hasn't dominated like MJ or Magic did. He hasn't put fear into his opponents like MJ and Magic did. Hell, he gets clowned on by scrubs.

Funny how you stans are quick to jump on the side of any old player who had issues with MJ (certain ex-Pistons or former teammates with a grudge) but ignore those old players who reject the notion that Lebron is on MJ's level (Magic, Barkley, Bird, hell, even Isaiah Thomas).

Laimbeer and Salley say Lebron is as good as or better than MJ?

"See, they know what they're talking about!"

Isaiah Thomas says "Slow ya roll! Lebron ain't on that level."

*crickets*

Bill Cartwright says Lebron is comparable to MJ?

"And Bill played with MJ, so his opinion is legit!"

Horace Grant says "Check ya neck! MJ is still GOAT."

*silence*


You mugs kill me with your agendas.

when Isiah or Lambier say something you say he's salty from getting owned by MJ :roll:

have some self awareness dude

[greymatter]

I think a lot of these players didn't get along with Jordan, because mostly they're ******* and they don't like to work hard, same as people who don't get along with Kobe.

That's because you're ignorant. Hopefully no one is dumb enough to pay you to think.

Jordan is well-documented as being an asshole, both on and off the court. The servers at restaurants he owns are instructed not to look at him when serving him. They must always avoid eye-contact or else he has them fired. The man fancies himself as royalty when in reality he's just another typical example of the expression "money can't buy class".

Jordan told his teammates to stop passing the ball to Cartwright during a game and Cartwright threatened to "break his fcuking legs" if Jordan ever disrespected him again.



It's easy, if you support mj/kobe, you're a hard working alpha who will succeed in life most of the time, if you support wilt/lebron, you're a beta, who will have to settle with a wife that looks like human garbage and fail more times than not

What's easy is seeing that you're a typical example of gutter trash. Any woman dumb enough to stay with you would no doubt be some trailer park or ghetto trash with self-esteem issues. Lebron is also a douche off the court, but at least by most accounts he generally respects his teammates and they like him a lot more than MJ's teammates ever liked him (MJ).

What's clear is that MJ's idea of leadership was bitching, yelling, screaming like a wannabe Gunnery Sgt Hartman. Some guys (typically the lesser role players like Dennis Hopson and Steve Kerr) cowered in fear and just took the abuse. Others like Robert Parish just glared at him and snickered, saying "you don't impress me. I've got rings too". The real leader was the Zen Master. If the Bulls never got a coach like Phil Jackson, no amount of MJ's brand of "leadership" was ever going to win them a title.

[Real14]

2/6 equals 6/6???:biggums: :coleman: :lol :oldlol: :roll:

[NBAplayoffs2001]

That's because you're ignorant. Hopefully no one is dumb enough to pay you to think.

Jordan is well-documented as being an asshole, both on and off the court. The servers at restaurants he owns are instructed not to look at him when serving him. They must always avoid eye-contact or else he has them fired. The man fancies himself as royalty when in reality he's just another typical example of the expression "money can't buy class".

Jordan told his teammates to stop passing the ball to Cartwright during a game and Cartwright threatened to "break his fcuking legs" if Jordan ever disrespected him again.



What's easy is seeing that you're a typical example of gutter trash. Any woman dumb enough to stay with you would no doubt be some trailer park or ghetto trash with self-esteem issues. Lebron is also a douche off the court, but at least by most accounts he generally respects his teammates and they like him a lot more than MJ's teammates ever liked him (MJ).

What's clear is that MJ's idea of leadership was bitching, yelling, screaming like a wannabe Gunnery Sgt Hartman. Some guys (typically the lesser role players like Dennis Hopson and Steve Kerr) cowered in fear and just took the abuse. Others like Robert Parish just glared at him and snickered, saying "you don't impress me. I've got rings too". The real leader was the Zen Master. If the Bulls never got a coach like Phil Jackson, no amount of MJ's brand of "leadership" was ever going to win them a title.

I agreed Phil Jackson is a major reason why the Bulls won those 6 championships.

Great post though. I like all your points :applause:

[PP34Deuce]

I don't understand how people can hate lebron so much. He clearly is a difference maker and has changed the way the modern bball player is.

He's a SF, but truly has no position. He's the most talented player ever and yes more talented than MJ. He's not better than Michael Jordan, but he has a knack for simply raising the games of average players and affecting your win loss column.

This reminds me of the Peyton Manning Tom Brady/Joe Montana argument. Peyton has lost more superbowls but has ridiculous stats and records while being a guy that automatically make any team a conference champion contender.

[Lebron23]

I don't understand how people can hate lebron so much. He clearly is a difference maker and has changed the way the modern bball player is.

He's a SF, but truly has no position. He's the most talented player ever and yes more talented than MJ. He's not better than Michael Jordan, but he has a knack for simply raising the games of average players and affecting your win loss column.

This reminds me of the Peyton Manning Tom Brady/Joe Montana argument. Peyton has lost more superbowls but has ridiculous stats and records while being a guy that automatically make any team a conference champion contender.


This

[NBAplayoffs2001]

This

Nice new avatar btw.

[ArbitraryWater]

Comparable doesn't mean on the same level

dude you gotta stop saying so much stupid shit!

[Lebron23]

Nice new avatar btw.

Thanks Brah.

[FKAri]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2015/ut8MaV.gif

[NBAplayoffs2001]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2015/ut8MaV.gif

2/5

[guy]

I don't understand how someone could have a real strong opinion either way on this. Its hard to compare someone you are watching today with what you remember 20 years ago.

Lebron- So good you can put him basically with the weakest team in the league and he is going to contend year after year. That's how good he is. Failed to win title in 2011 which is the only year he failed to do something that he should have if the ATG. Is a pass first type a guy but can put up a ton of points whenever he wants to. Can shut down basically anyone on defense.

Jordan. If you surrounded him with a really good team he will get the title almost everytime. Put him on a weak team and he goes nowhere and I mean nowhere. Probably the best scorer ever. Maybe the best defensive guard ever.

Not sure how anyone can look at this and have a strong opinion about whos better.

Jordan took a weak team to the ECF and didn't have the benefit of playing in a historically weak conference. Highly doubtful he wouldn't have made a finals with a weak team if he played in such a weak conference. What they both have done with weak teams is pretty comparable. What isn't comparable is what they've both done with good/great teams.

[diamenz]

I don't understand how people can hate lebron so much.

the decision killed it for me. one can never be a goat candidate after that shit. not to mention flopping, and getting raped by jason terry and jj barrea.

whatta man!

[andgar923]

I don't understand how people can hate lebron so much. He clearly is a difference maker and has changed the way the modern bball player is.

He's a SF, but truly has no position. He's the most talented player ever and yes more talented than MJ. He's not better than Michael Jordan, but he has a knack for simply raising the games of average players and affecting your win loss column.

This reminds me of the Peyton Manning Tom Brady/Joe Montana argument. Peyton has lost more superbowls but has ridiculous stats and records while being a guy that automatically make any team a conference champion contender.

Most of us (MJ fans) don't hate Bron.

Shit... I actually have him in my top 10 as Im sure most MJ fans do.

He's simply not on the same level as MJ.

And NO he's not more skilled than MJ in any way.

[scandisk_]

Most of us (MJ fans) don't hate Bron.

Shit... I actually have him in my top 10 as Im sure most MJ fans do.

He's simply not on the same level as MJ.

And NO he's not more skilled than MJ in any way.

But he's a bit talented than MJ though.

[sportjames23]

But he's a bit talented than MJ though.


No, he's not.

Aside from choking on the biggest stage, there's nothing Bron can do that MJ can't.

[plowking]

He's simply not on the same level as MJ.

And NO he's not more skilled than MJ in any way.

He is on the same level. He is literally doing everything MJ did in his era. Dominate like no other. Lebron is literally all people talk about when the NBA is mentioned.

Not more skilled? Based on what? And he doesn't have to be. Shaq isn't more skilled than Cuttino Mobley, yet there is no comparison.

Bron is just as good as MJ as far as a basketball player, and possibly better. It isn't ridiculous to think so. 9 first teams, 4 MVP's, 2 titles, and a bunch of other amazing accolades and stats. All at 30 years old.
Are people simply refusing to realize what is in front of them? 30 years old and he has accomplished more than all but 6 or 7 players ever probably. That list is probably MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Shaq and Duncan.

Like Floyd in his field, Lebron won't ever get full credit, simply due to being so polarising.

[dubeta]

No, he's not.

Aside from choking on the biggest stage, there's nothing Bron can do that MJ can't.

:facepalm


You dont know when to stop trolling do you?

Just cringeworthy

[andgar923]

But he's a bit talented than MJ though.

He aint.

He's great for his size, but he's not more talented in any way.

Passing is where most people give him the edge, but even that's debatable. He simply passes more and he holds the ball more. I still see him taking too long, his vision isn't the same as MJ's.

MJ was quicker at reading the defense, and quicker at reacting. Passing isn't simply about making fancy passes, it's about making the 'right' play, at the right time, setting up the team, etc.etc.

Other than that, there's nothing that one can point to and say Bron is better.

Certainly not offense, MJ blows him outta the park. Bron can't even move without the ball for starters.

Yeah.. some will automatically state that Im hating, but just calling it like I see it.

Imo Bird is the most talented player ever (yes even more than MJ).

Bird does things that Bron wishes he could do. Bird does things that Bron doesn't even think about doing, that's how good he was.

[andgar923]

He is on the same level. He is literally doing everything MJ did in his era. Dominate like no other. Lebron is literally all people talk about when the NBA is mentioned.

Not more skilled? Based on what? And he doesn't have to be. Shaq isn't more skilled than Cuttino Mobley, yet there is no comparison.

Bron is just as good as MJ as far as a basketball player, and possibly better. It isn't ridiculous to think so. 9 first teams, 4 MVP's, 2 titles, and a bunch of other amazing accolades and stats. All at 30 years old.
Are people simply refusing to realize what is in front of them? 30 years old and he has accomplished more than all but 6 or 7 players ever probably. That list is probably MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Shaq and Duncan.

Like Floyd in his field, Lebron won't ever get full credit, simply due to being so polarising.

That's the only thing that's true.

But he's not better or on par.

He's just dominant like MJ was, but not as good. As you hinted at, two different things.

[scandisk_]

No, he's not.

Aside from choking on the biggest stage, there's nothing Bron can do that MJ can't.

nah dude he's a better talent, he's more natural and gifted. talent =/= skill.

[Prometheus]

Bran just might be more "athletic" than Jordan. As an all-around athlete, he probably is.

But it is not right for people to say that he's more talented, or more athletic in regards to basketball, which is all we really care about anyway. Jordan was quicker, more agile, had superior balance, could jump higher, and was a much more naturally gifted shooter.

[dubeta]

Bran just might be more "athletic" than Jordan. As an all-around athlete, he probably is.

But it is not right for people to say that he's more talented, or more athletic in regards to basketball, which is all we really care about anyway. Jordan was quicker, more agile, had superior balance, could jump higher, and was a much more naturally gifted shooter.

Now this is straight bullshit and you know it.

[andgar923]

Bran just might be more "athletic" than Jordan. As an all-around athlete, he probably is.

But it is not right for people to say that he's more talented, or more athletic in regards to basketball, which is all we really care about anyway. Jordan was quicker, more agile, had superior balance, could jump higher, and was a much more naturally gifted shooter.

I've noticed it before, but it's becoming even more clear.... Bron's jumping.

He's not a great leaper.

Yes he can jump high, but he jumps odd at times, sort of how Blake Griffin jumps awkwardly at times.

YES both can jump high, but at times their mechanics are off, their balance is off, their explosiveness and vertical suffer because of this. Just something I find awkward, and Im not 100% sure if it has to do with their jumping mechanics, or them not knowing what to do. :confusedshrug:

[Prometheus]

Now this is straight bullshit and you know it.

Specifically what did I say that isn't true?

[scandisk_]

Bran just might be more "athletic" than Jordan. As an all-around athlete, he probably is.

But it is not right for people to say that he's more talented, or more athletic in regards to basketball, which is all we really care about anyway. Jordan was quicker, more agile, had superior balance, could jump higher, and was a much more naturally gifted shooter.

Agility, balance, coordination, reaction time, most of these are skill related fitness though. Bron has him beat in Body composition, strength and mascular endurance (yes all talent related)

[plowking]

He aint.

He's great for his size, but he's not more talented in any way.

Passing is where most people give him the edge, but even that's debatable. He simply passes more and he holds the ball more. I still see him taking too long, his vision isn't the same as MJ's.

MJ was quicker at reading the defense, and quicker at reacting. Passing isn't simply about making fancy passes, it's about making the 'right' play, at the right time, setting up the team, etc.etc.

Other than that, there's nothing that one can point to and say Bron is better.

Certainly not offense, MJ blows him outta the park. Bron can't even move without the ball for starters.

Yeah.. some will automatically state that Im hating, but just calling it like I see it.

Imo Bird is the most talented player ever (yes even more than MJ).

Bird does things that Bron wishes he could do. Bird does things that Bron doesn't even think about doing, that's how good he was.


There is no point debating with you when you simply don't know basketball very well.

MJ a better passer? MJ is probably just top 5 at the SG position in terms of vision and passing.
Making the right play? Bron does that better than any player.

People like you can't even give credit to his elite post game even though stats over the last couple of years tell us otherwise.

Bron simply doesn't get the credit he deserves because people will always find an element of the game that can't be documented or tracked as easily in terms of statistical analysis to critique.

At his peak, he was one of if not the most influential and statistically dominant defenders when on the floor. He was the best post player in the league. You can make a case for him being the best passer in the league nearly every year. Despite being such an average scorer to some people, he is near top of the league every year, and scoring far more efficiently than all the other scorers.

Literally the only thing that he doesn't do well given his size is rebound, but he steps up every single time in the playoffs.

[Prometheus]

I've noticed it before, but it's becoming even more clear.... Bron's jumping.

He's not a great leaper.

Yes he can jump high, but he jumps odd at times, sort of how Blake Griffin jumps awkwardly at times.

YES both can jump high, but at times their mechanics are off, their balance is off, their explosiveness and vertical suffer because of this. Just something I find awkward, and Im not 100% sure if it has to do with their jumping mechanics, or them not knowing what to do. :confusedshrug:

It's been discussed on ISH more times than I can remember, but the fact of the matter is that while LeBron is absolutely on Jordan's level as a one-legged jumper, he is not even close off of two legs. Two-legged jumping is more advantageous in a set offense for reasons which should be obvious to anyone who cares to give it a moment's contemplation.

[plowking]

It's been discussed on ISH more times than I can remember, but the fact of the matter is that while LeBron is absolutely on Jordan's level as a one-legged jumper, he is not even close off of two legs. Two-legged jumping is more advantageous in a set offense for reasons which should be obvious to anyone who cares to give it a moment's contemplation.

Yet even with such a disadvantage, Bron is the best finisher at the rim we've ever seen. Doesn't make sense...

[Prometheus]

Yet even with such a disadvantage, Bron is the best finisher at the rim we've ever seen. Doesn't make sense...

Makes sense to me. Bran's size/speed/explosiveness/strength combination combined with his elite (for his size) dribbling ability and great touch around the rim make him a devastating offensive weapon. Bran is a beast dude!

He's just not as good as Jordan, and not more talented either.

[andgar923]

Yet even with such a disadvantage, Bron is the best finisher at the rim we've ever seen. Doesn't make sense...
:lol :lol

[Prometheus]

Agility, balance, coordination, reaction time, most of these are skill related fitness though. Bron has him beat in Body composition, strength and mascular endurance (yes all talent related)

Those are not skill-based. You can improve them just like you can improve your strength and speed through training, but some are more natural than others.

[scandisk_]

:lol :lol

MJ still has this one.

[Prometheus]

It seems like you guys are old enough to have watched only second three-peat Jordan and really have no clue the kind of player he was on a nightly basis before 1994...

[plowking]

Makes sense to me. Bran's size/speed/explosiveness/strength combination combined with his elite (for his size) dribbling ability and great touch around the rim make him a devastating offensive weapon. Bran is a beast dude!

He's just not as good as Jordan, and not more talented either.

Well as someone who has watched both, I think he is.

[scandisk_]

Those are not skill-based. You can improve them just like you can improve your strength and speed through training, but some are more natural than others.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/506917-5-skill-related-components-of-physical-fitness/

point still stands

[plowking]

MJ still has this one.

Not really. Bron was finishing at a higher percentage than Shaq around the rim.

[scandisk_]

It seems like you guys are old enough to have watched only second three-peat Jordan and really have no clue the kind of player he was on a nightly basis before 1994...

why? he was flying through the roof? And bron is some kind of bulky POS? lelz

I have every bit of idea what both can and can't do. Bran is a bit talented than MJ.

[Prometheus]

http://www.livestrong.com/article/506917-5-skill-related-components-of-physical-fitness/

point still stands


The 1996 U.S. Surgeon General's "Report on Physical Activity and Health" is a landmark document that emphasizes the important link between physical fitness and American health. In a 2011 research report, the President's Council on Physical Fitness and Sports sought to broaden the definition of physical fitness laid down in the Surgeon General's report, subcategorizing skill-related fitness as "those components of physical fitness that have a relationship with enhanced performance in sports and motor skills." The components of skill-related fitness include agility, balance, coordination, power, speed and reaction time.

So according to this study, a skill-related fitness component is related to enhanced performance in sports and motor skills. "Skill-based", in this context, does not mean that it is a result of hard work or that it isn't related to genetic (natural) talent.

It should be common sense though. Everyone knows that some people simply have superior balance and agility to other people. It's really very obvious.

And Jordan jumped higher.

[Prometheus]

why? he was flying through the roof? And bron is some kind of bulky POS? lelz

I have every bit of idea what both can and can't do. Bran is a bit talented than MJ.

Well no, he wasn't flying through the roof, but he was quicker, more agile, had better balance, a significantly better jumper, and could jump higher. He was scoring more like ~35 points vs. LeBron's ~25 and was a superior defender.

He was just... better. The best, actually.

[plowking]

Well no, he wasn't flying through the roof, but he was quicker, more agile, had better balance, a significantly better jumper, and could jump higher. He was scoring more like ~35 points vs. LeBron's ~25 and was a superior defender.

He was just... better. The best, actually.

It's almost as if Bron wasn't putting up 30/9/7 seasons in his prime.

[sd3035]

Yet even with such a disadvantage, Bron is the best finisher at the rim we've ever seen. Doesn't make sense...

Ever heard of a guy named Shaq?

[scandisk_]

So according to this study, a skill-related fitness component is related to enhanced performance in sports and motor skills. "Skill-based", in this context, does not mean that it is a result of hard work or that it isn't related to genetic (natural) talent.

It should be common sense though. Everyone knows that some people simply have superior balance and agility to other people. It's really very obvious.

And Jordan jumped higher.

To be clear, I was talking about them as athletes (not just bball players). You can say that MJ is a better basketball talent (his gifts more suited for basketball), I'd prolly give you that.

[zoom17]

Ok, fine. Doesn't change the fact that LeBron is more on MJ's level than Kobe was, is, or will ever be. I'll be real - Kobe is an all time great and a legend. If someone has him in their top 10 I can respect that.

But Kobe ALWAYS had a dominant big who played well to go with him. Shaq, and Pau. Obviously Kobe is better than Pau, doesn't mean you can discount what a huge beast Pau was during those rings they won. Kobe is a huge part of the teams success. The "Kobe was carried" nonsense is just that, Kobe is the reason they got the rings. He went out and grabbed them.

Still though, on the other hand... LeBron IS. That's it. There is nothing on the Cavs without LeBron.

JR Smith? Iman Shumpert?

JR Smith is a guy who went from this during the playoffs

http://d13beo3f7vpmvd.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/jrsmithsmall.jpg


To a guy scoring all of the Cavs bench points in the ECF. I mean that literally, JR Smith put up all 28 of the Cavs' bench points in their closeout win over the Hawks. This is a guy who's idea of defense 1 year ago was to untie the shoelaces of a player during a free throw. Iman Shumpert was the "overrated Knicks player" that the Knicks traded just to get Cleveland to take JR.

Mozgov? Did you watch him on the Nuggets? You hoped you'd get 7 points and 8 boards in the guy. Now, he's getting double doubles.
Tristan Thompson has been a solid rebounder at least 2 years now but you weren't seeing these kinds of dunks and energy as frequently. Love has been out all playoffs, and yet they still breeze through teams without much of an issue. Admittedly they are East teams, but ones with a good record, and in the playoffs.

Cleveland was a 33-49 team last year that missed the playoffs, with Kyrie Irving at the helm. This year they were a 53 win team, despite losing a good amount of games when LeBron was out.

Which JR do you think comes playing next to Kobe, the one untying shoes and partying during the playoffs? Or the one catching the cross-court assist, raining stepback 3s all throughout the ECF last week?

What happened to Miami after bran leaves? Yes, Bosh was out a good part of the season. Yes, Wade was hurt. But they still picked up Dragic, a huge upgrade at PG, and Whiteside who was a revelation at C.

At the end of the day, they go from a 54 win team to a 37 win team, missing the playoffs.

LeBron's impact on a team is simply on a level we have not witnessed in a while.

You can't say Kobe is better than LeBron "because 5/7 is better than 2/6" and then turn around and call the Horry argument childish.

http://i.imgur.com/dhMeAzK.gif

[iamgine]

Cartwright stating the obvious.

[Prometheus]

It's almost as if Bron wasn't putting up 30/9/7 seasons in his prime.

30/9/7? I guess you're referring to 2010, because that's the only time he averaged that, though you have to round up for it. Jordan had better numbers in the regular season. He had far better number in the playoffs. He had far, far better numbers in the finals. He never had any awful series like LeBron had in the '07 Finals, '08 Boston series, and '11 Finals.

I understand you're trying to defend LeBron because most people just hate on him blindly, but I'm not one of those people. I'm not your generic "6/6 > 2/5 doe" troll. I like LeBron and I defend him all the time. But the Jordan comparisons are just not fair, and the simply truth is that Jordan was a clearly better player. And that's okay... because he was the best player ever. I don't know why you're being so difficult about it.

[sportjames23]

For those questioning MJ's skills:

Passing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTOXUmsdoM


Post Moves:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-VcA2QZEFU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb-cHBI5MyU


First Step:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qukNKGNphoQ


Driving to the Basket:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_RLjmI6fK4

[dubeta]

30/9/7? I guess you're referring to 2010, because that's the only time he averaged that, though you have to round up for it. Jordan had better numbers in the regular season. He had far better number in the playoffs. He had far, far better numbers in the finals. He never had any awful series like LeBron had in the '07 Finals, '08 Boston series, and '11 Finals.

I understand you're trying to defend LeBron because most people just hate on him blindly, but I'm not one of those people. I'm not your generic "6/6 > 2/5 doe" troll. I like LeBron and I defend him all the time. But the Jordan comparisons are just not fair, and the simply truth is that Jordan was a clearly better player. And that's okay... because he was the best player ever. I don't know why you're being so difficult about it.

Awful series in the Finals >> swept in the 1st round

[Prometheus]

Awful series in the Finals >> swept in the 1st round

Swept in the first round >> missing the playoffs.

Next.

[dubeta]

Swept in the first round >> missing the playoffs.

Next.

Missing the playoffs winning 35 games >> Making the playoffs winning 30

[livinglegend]

Missing the playoffs winning 35 games >> Making the playoffs winning 30
:lol :lol :lol

[Prometheus]

Missing the playoffs winning 35 games >> Making the playoffs winning 30

30 games? The Bulls won 38 games in '84-'85...

Unless you mean the 30 games they won in '85-'86... the year that Jordan was hurt and only played 18 games all year (in which they went 9-9, a 41-win pace). Is that what you were talking about? Surely you couldn't have meant that, could you?

Because that was the year that Jordan averaged 43.7 PTS on .584 TS% against the '86 Celtics (often considered the GOAT team) in the playoffs. That year couldn't possibly be used to argue LeBron > Jordan in any way, could it?

[Prometheus]

:lol :lol :lol

Giving him positive reinforcement for such a stupid post only shows how stupid you are as well, lacking in your knowledge of basketball history.

Congratulations.

[scandisk_]

30 games? The Bulls won 38 games in '84-'85...

Unless you mean the 30 games they won in '85-'86... the year that Jordan was hurt and only played 18 games all year (in which they went 9-9, a 41-win pace). Is that what you were talking about? Surely you couldn't have meant that, could you?

Because that was the year that Jordan averaged 43.7 PTS on .584 TS% against the '86 Celtics (often considered the GOAT team) in the playoffs. That year couldn't possibly be used to argue LeBron > Jordan in any way, could it?

dude is a lebron hater man, no point arguing with him.

[Prometheus]

dude is a lebron hater man, no point arguing with him.

dubeta is a hopeless case - I know that. I'm just doing this for the fans.

EDIT: wait, what? You meant to say LeBron homer / Jordan hater, right?

[dubeta]

30 games? The Bulls won 38 games in '84-'85...

Unless you mean the 30 games they won in '85-'86... the year that Jordan was hurt and only played 18 games all year (in which they went 9-9, a 41-win pace). Is that what you were talking about? Surely you couldn't have meant that, could you?

Because that was the year that Jordan averaged 43.7 PTS on .584 TS% against the '86 Celtics (often considered the GOAT team) in the playoffs. That year couldn't possibly be used to argue LeBron > Jordan in any way, could it?

Let's break it down..



19 years old

LeBron - NBA Star

Jordan - Riding North Carolinas bench



20 years old

LeBron - NBA Superstar

Jordan- Decent College Player



21 years old

LeBron - Top 3 player in the World

Jordan - Averaged 20 ppg in College



22 years old

LeBron - Took scrubs to the Finals

Jordan - Lost in the 1st Round


23 years old

LeBron - Took the championship Celtics to 7 in the second round

Jordan - Swept in the 1st round


24 years old

LeBron - Greatest statistical player run, averaging 35, 8, 7, Lost in ECF

Jordan -Ummmmm ..... Swept in the 1st round




LeBron > MJ :confusedshrug:

[livinglegend]

Giving him positive reinforcement for such a stupid post only shows how stupid you are as well, lacking in your knowledge of basketball history.

Congratulations.

Why are you getting upset? :lol
Chill bro.
I thought his post was funny.
This is not a history class exam. Relax and enjoy. :lol

[livinglegend]

dubeta is a hopeless case - I know that. I'm just doing this for the fans.

EDIT: wait, what? You meant to say LeBron homer / Jordan hater, right?

He is entertaining.

[veilside23]

GOT SWEPT IN THE FINALS

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/79/2007_NBA_Finals.png

NEXT!

[veilside23]

Let's break it down..



19 years old

LeBron - NBA Star

Jordan - Riding North Carolinas bench



20 years old

LeBron - NBA Superstar

Jordan- Decent College Player



21 years old

LeBron - Top 3 player in the World

Jordan - Averaged 20 ppg in College



22 years old

LeBron - Took scrubs to the Finals

Jordan - Lost in the 1st Round


23 years old

LeBron - Took the championship Celtics to 7 in the second round

Jordan - Swept in the 1st round


24 years old

LeBron - Greatest statistical player run, averaging 35, 8, 7, Lost in ECF

Jordan -Ummmmm ..... Swept in the 1st round




LeBron > MJ :confusedshrug:


did MJ stopped at 24 years old?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/79/2007_NBA_Finals.png

[scandisk_]

dubeta is a hopeless case - I know that. I'm just doing this for the fans.

EDIT: wait, what? You meant to say LeBron homer / Jordan hater, right?

As of now, we don't know whose alt this fakkit belongs to. Might belong to the Mamba stans or worse, he's with us (MJ fans/stans) :roll:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Yet even with such a disadvantage, Bron is the best finisher at the rim we've ever seen. Doesn't make sense...

He's not a better finisher at the rim than prime Jordan. Lebron has been at (I think) 73-76% at the rim in his best seasons. 1990-1993 Jordan was at 73+% at the rim in a league with a more crowded lane, far more physicalty, and far more actual shotblocking big men waiting at the rim. And it's almost certain that '87-'90 Jordan was a better finisher than '90-'93 Jordan (the '93 season in particular likely dragging him down a bit).

Give prime Jordan today's lack of physicality, open lanes, no shotblockers and primo spacing and he averages 75+% at the rim annually imo.

[Prometheus]

Let's break it down..



19 years old

LeBron - NBA Star

Jordan - Riding North Carolinas bench



20 years old

LeBron - NBA Superstar

Jordan- Decent College Player



21 years old

LeBron - Top 3 player in the World

Jordan - Averaged 20 ppg in College



22 years old

LeBron - Took scrubs to the Finals

Jordan - Lost in the 1st Round


23 years old

LeBron - Took the championship Celtics to 7 in the second round

Jordan - Swept in the 1st round


24 years old

LeBron - Greatest statistical player run, averaging 35, 8, 7, Lost in ECF

Jordan -Ummmmm ..... Swept in the 1st round




LeBron > MJ :confusedshrug:

Well first of all, you have Jordan's seasons wrong. He finished the '85 season at age 21. All years you mentioned should have him a year younger.

25 years old
LeBron - Lost in second round
Jordan - Lost to champion pistons with 29.7 pts and .561 TS%

26 years old
LeBron - 17.8 PTS in the finals, lost as clear-cut favorites and choked miserably
Jordan - lost to champion Pistons in 7 games with 32.1 PTS and .566 TS%

27 years old
LeBron - won title vs. 12 year old Durant - 28.6 PTS _ .558 TS% _ 7.4 AST
Jordan - won title vs. NBA legend Magic Johnson - 31.2 PTS _ .612 TS% _ 11.4 AST (seriously, what the f*ck)

28 years old
LeBron - won title, 25.3 PTS in Finals, saved by Ray Allen
Jordan - won title, 35.8 PTS in Finals...

29 years old
LeBron - destroyed in the Finals by record margin
Jordan - won title, 41.0 PTS in Finals

Jordan > LeBron

Next.

[dubeta]

Well first of all, you have Jordan's seasons wrong. He finished the '85 season at age 21. All years you mentioned should have him a year younger.

25 years old
LeBron - Lost in second round
Jordan - Lost to champion pistons with 29.7 pts and .561 TS%

26 years old
LeBron - 17.8 PTS in the finals, lost as clear-cut favorites and choked miserably
Jordan - lost to champion Pistons in 7 games with 32.1 PTS and .566 TS%

27 years old
LeBron - won title vs. 12 year old Durant - 28.6 PTS _ .558 TS% _ 7.4 AST
Jordan - won title vs. NBA legend Magic Johnson - 31.2 PTS _ .612 TS% _ 11.4 AST (seriously, what the f*ck)

28 years old
LeBron - won title, 25.3 PTS in Finals, saved by Ray Allen
Jordan - won title, 35.8 PTS in Finals...

29 years old
LeBron - destroyed in the Finals by record margin
Jordan - won title, 41.0 PTS in Finals

Jordan > LeBron

Next.


Hows that possible?

Michael Jordan
Basketball player
Michael Jeffrey Jordan, also known by his initials, MJ, is an American former professional basketball player. He is also an entrepreneur, and principal owner and chairman of the Charlotte Hornets. Wikipedia
Born: February 17, 1963 (age 52)

[plowking]

30/9/7? I guess you're referring to 2010, because that's the only time he averaged that, though you have to round up for it. Jordan had better numbers in the regular season. He had far better number in the playoffs. He had far, far better numbers in the finals. He never had any awful series like LeBron had in the '07 Finals, '08 Boston series, and '11 Finals.



The only difference between Jordan and Lebron in terms of bad series, is that Jordan's team is good enough to win when he played poorly. Never really been the case for Bron. Hence Jordan's "failures" aren't really remembered as failures, since he ended up getting through anyway.

93 against the Knicks, Jordan plays like trash the whole series outside of one 54 point game. Team still won in 6.
Plays like trash in the 96 finals, closes out the series shooting 5-19 and gets the FMVP.

Bron stinks it up like the series you mentioned and his team has never really overcome his poor play.

[Lebron23]

Michael Jordan is a bigger @$$hole than LeBron. He was at the right place at the right time when all of the super teams in the 1980's started to declined, and fade.

[Prometheus]

Hows that possible?

Michael Jordan
Basketball player
Michael Jeffrey Jordan, also known by his initials, MJ, is an American former professional basketball player. He is also an entrepreneur, and principal owner and chairman of the Charlotte Hornets. Wikipedia
Born: February 17, 1963 (age 52)

F*ck. You're right :lol

Still. Those Finals stats :eek:

[dubeta]

F*ck. You're right :lol

Still. Those Finals stats :eek:

:cheers:

Jordan was a GREAT player, I loved watching him play, I remember back in my 40's taking a stroll to the United Center, there was a certain vibe when MJ was playing, like you just knew it, the entire city was buzzing. I have great respect for MJ, easily one of the top 5 SGs of all-time.

[Prometheus]

The only difference between Jordan and Lebron in terms of bad series, is that Jordan's team is good enough to win when he played poorly. Never really been the case for Bron. Hence Jordan's "failures" aren't really remembered as failures, since he ended up getting through anyway.

93 against the Knicks, Jordan plays like trash the whole series outside of one 54 point game. Team still won in 6.
Plays like trash in the 96 finals, closes out the series shooting 5-19 and gets the FMVP.

Bron stinks it up like the series you mentioned and his team has never really overcome his poor play.

Jordan in '93 vs. Knicks:
41.5 MP __ 32.2 PTS __ .522 TS% __ 7.0 AST __ 33.3 AST% __ 2.3 TOV
6.2 TRB __ 2.5 STL __ 1.0 BLK

Jordan in '96 Finals:
42.0 MP __ 27.3 PTS __ .538 TS% __ 4.2 AST __ 20.8 AST% __ 3.0 TOV
5.3 TRB __ 1.7 STL __ 0.2 BLK

Those are his "bad" series.

LeBron in '07 Finals:
42.6 MP __ 22.0 PTS __ .428 TS% __ 6.8 AST __ 35.7 AST% __ 5.6 TOV
7.0 TRB __ 1.0 STL __ 0.5 BLK

LeBron in '11 Finals:
43.6 MP __ 17.8 PTS __ .541 TS% __ 6.8 AST __ 28.8 AST% __ 4.0 TOV
7.2 TRB __ 1.7 STL __ 0.5 BLK

... you were saying?

[Prometheus]

:cheers:

Jordan was a GREAT player, I loved watching him play, I remember back in my 40's taking a stroll to the United Center, there was a certain vibe when MJ was playing, like you just knew it, the entire city was buzzing. I have great respect for MJ, easily one of the top 5 SGs of all-time.

You seem like a good dude. Would rep if I could. Wanna hang out some time? We can get drunk and hit on middle school girls together.

[dubeta]

You seem like a good dude. Would rep if I could. Wanna hang out some time? We can get drunk and hit on middle school girls together.

Anytime bro :cheers:

[chazzy]

93 against the Knicks, Jordan plays like trash the whole series outside of one 54 point game. Team still won in 6.
Plays like trash in the 96 finals, closes out the series shooting 5-19 and gets the FMVP.

Bron stinks it up like the series you mentioned and his team has never really overcome his poor play.
Bron against the Bulls shot 46 TS% for the series. If you remove his one great shooting game like you're doing for MJ's Knicks series, it's like historically bad for a star. He also had many several putrid games against the Celtics in 08 and Spurs in 07 in which his team lost by single digits.

[Indian guy]

He's not a better finisher at the rim than prime Jordan. Lebron has been at (I think) 73-76% at the rim in his best seasons. 1990-1993 Jordan was at 73+% at the rim in a league with a more crowded lane

LeBron was actually at 75-80% from 11-14, which is just insane considering opponents are always playing him for the drive first. MJ at least had a consistent jumper to open up his driving game on the other hand. I would definitely take LeBron over MJ as the GOAT perimeter finisher. He has the numbers on his side for one, and his elite leaping comes in a 6'8, 250+ package. That's just harder to stop.


And it's almost certain that '87-'90 Jordan was a better finisher than '90-'93 Jordan

Doesn't necessarily mean he would have had a better % at the rim though, since he had worse teammates, a worse jumper and took a higher volume of his shots inside. No different for LeBron, whose athletic prime was 08-10, but that's not when he had his most efficient finishing seasons.

[LeBird]

Let's break it down..



19 years old

LeBron - NBA Star

Jordan - Riding North Carolinas bench



20 years old

LeBron - NBA Superstar

Jordan- Decent College Player



21 years old

LeBron - Top 3 player in the World

Jordan - Averaged 20 ppg in College



22 years old

LeBron - Took scrubs to the Finals

Jordan - Lost in the 1st Round


23 years old

LeBron - Took the championship Celtics to 7 in the second round

Jordan - Swept in the 1st round


24 years old

LeBron - Greatest statistical player run, averaging 35, 8, 7, Lost in ECF

Jordan -Ummmmm ..... Swept in the 1st round




LeBron > MJ :confusedshrug:

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[Prometheus]

Let's break it down..

19 years old
LeBron - missed playoffs
Jordan - college
Kobe - WCF

20 years old
LeBron - missed playoffs
Jordan - college
Kobe - ECSF

21 years old
LeBron - ECSF
Jordan - college
Kobe - NBA Champion

22 years old
LeBron - Lost in Finals
Jordan - Lost in the first round
Kobe - 2x defending NBA Champion

23 years old
LeBron - ECSF
Jordan - Lost in the first round
Kobe - 3x defending NBA Champion


Kobe > LeBron > MJ :confusedshrug:

[ImKobe]

MJ at 30 averaged 35/7/6 on 48/39/81 shooting in the Playoffs and 41/9/6 on 51% shooting in the Finals

Bran is nowhere near the same level

[Marchesk]

I just heard Jerry West on SC say "I don't know if I've ever seen a player as good as LeBron James"

http://image1.findagrave.com/photos/2010/126/6886_127325288592.jpg

In what way is Lebron better than Wilt?

[Marchesk]

He's a SF, but truly has no position. He's the most talented player ever and yes more talented than MJ. He's not better than Michael Jordan, but he has a knack for simply raising the games of average players and affecting your win loss column.

Is Lebron more talented than prime Elgin Baylor or Larry Bird? He's more of a physical freak than Bird, but not more talented.


This reminds me of the Peyton Manning Tom Brady/Joe Montana argument. Peyton has lost more superbowls but has ridiculous stats and records while being a guy that automatically make any team a conference champion contender.

You mean Manning has done this for the Colts and Broncos who placed on emphasis on giving Manning what he needed on offense to be successful. We never saw whether Manning could lead the Jags to a SB.

As for records, the passing game has changed a lot. All sorts of QBs have been putting up Marino like numbers this century.

[Marchesk]

Yet even with such a disadvantage, Bron is the best finisher at the rim we've ever seen. Doesn't make sense...

He's a better finisher than Shaq or Wilt? :facepalm

[Trollsmasher]

Let's break it down..



19 years old

LeBron - NBA Star

Jordan - Riding North Carolinas bench



20 years old

LeBron - NBA Superstar

Jordan- Decent College Player



21 years old

LeBron - Top 3 player in the World

Jordan - Averaged 20 ppg in College



22 years old

LeBron - Took scrubs to the Finals

Jordan - Lost in the 1st Round


23 years old

LeBron - Took the championship Celtics to 7 in the second round

Jordan - Swept in the 1st round


24 years old

LeBron - Greatest statistical player run, averaging 35, 8, 7, Lost in ECF

Jordan -Ummmmm ..... Swept in the 1st round




LeBron > MJ :confusedshrug:
:biggums: don't do'em like that

[andgar923]

Another example of people using stats without context.

Bron's fg% around the rim is a result of different factors such as:

A. A good amount come from fast breaks
B. Less lane congestion
C. Less big men than the past
D. Less physical play
E. As some of you have mentioned (repeatedly), players move out of his way

Meanwhile, MJ finished in the paint in ways Bron can only dream of.

[ballinhun8]

Decent college player. Lol.


No mention of GW shot in NCAA title game. Took James almost 10 years to hit a clutch shot that mattered.


Silly little trolls. ISH is for kids.

[Megabox!]

http://image1.findagrave.com/photos/2010/126/6886_127325288592.jpg

In what way is Lebron better than Wilt?
Well for starters Lebron actually shows up in the playoffs

[chazzy]

LeBron was actually at 75-80% from 11-14, which is just insane considering opponents are always playing him for the drive first. MJ at least had a consistent jumper to open up his driving game on the other hand. I would definitely take LeBron over MJ as the GOAT perimeter finisher. He has the numbers on his side for one, and his elite leaping comes in a 6'8, 250+ package. That's just harder to stop.



Doesn't necessarily mean he would have had a better % at the rim though, since he had worse teammates, a worse jumper and took a higher volume of his shots inside. No different for LeBron, whose athletic prime was 08-10, but that's not when he had his most efficient finishing seasons.
How much of that percentage has to do with his fastbreak opportunities in Miami? I thought he was clearly better at attacking the rim in the halfcourt in that 08-10 span. And I recall you always talking about his athletic decline and how he needed to shoot more jumpers while he was in Miami.

[LAZERUSS]

Well for starters Lebron actually shows up in the playoffs

:roll: :roll: :roll:

As if Wilt didn't.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Bron against the Bulls shot 46 TS% for the series. If you remove his one great shooting game like you're doing for MJ's Knicks series, it's like historically bad for a star. He also had many several putrid games against the Celtics in 08 and Spurs in 07 in which his team lost by single digits.

Seriously. Jordan's WORST playoff series before age 34 (vs. NY in 1993), he was at 28 ppg/47% TS if you remove his best game of the series. Lebron vs. Chicago this year was at 24 ppg/42% TS if you remove his best game. And let's not even compare the '93 Knicks' defense to the '15 Bulls...

[Heilige]

Seriously. Jordan's WORST playoff series before age 34 (vs. NY in 1993), he was at 28 ppg/47% TS if you remove his best game of the series. Lebron vs. Chicago this year was at 24 ppg/42% TS if you remove his best game. And let's not even compare the '93 Knicks' defense to the '15 Bulls...



How do you compare prime Kobe and prime LeBron?

What does your top 10 GOAT list look like? And, if LeBron wins Finals MVP and plays well to a third championship where would you put him?

[ArbitraryWater]

Decent college player. Lol.


No mention of GW shot in NCAA title game. Took James almost 10 years to hit a clutch shot that mattered.


Silly little trolls. ISH is for kids.


ISH at its finest right here... bunch of idiots...

Was nothing more than solid trough his tenure...

"but that one shot doe"

Ahh MJ fans, ISH... :bowdown:

[Chadwin]

Yet even with such a disadvantage, Bron is the best finisher at the rim we've ever seen. Doesn't make sense...

:biggums:

Shaq

[ArbitraryWater]

Ok, fine. Doesn't change the fact that LeBron is more on MJ's level than Kobe was, is, or will ever be. I'll be real - Kobe is an all time great and a legend. If someone has him in their top 10 I can respect that.

But Kobe ALWAYS had a dominant big who played well to go with him. Shaq, and Pau. Obviously Kobe is better than Pau, doesn't mean you can discount what a huge beast Pau was during those rings they won. Kobe is a huge part of the teams success. The "Kobe was carried" nonsense is just that, Kobe is the reason they got the rings. He went out and grabbed them.

Still though, on the other hand... LeBron IS. That's it. There is nothing on the Cavs without LeBron.

JR Smith? Iman Shumpert?

JR Smith is a guy who went from this during the playoffs

http://d13beo3f7vpmvd.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/jrsmithsmall.jpg


To a guy scoring all of the Cavs bench points in the ECF. I mean that literally, JR Smith put up all 28 of the Cavs' bench points in their closeout win over the Hawks. This is a guy who's idea of defense 1 year ago was to untie the shoelaces of a player during a free throw. Iman Shumpert was the "overrated Knicks player" that the Knicks traded just to get Cleveland to take JR.

Mozgov? Did you watch him on the Nuggets? You hoped you'd get 7 points and 8 boards in the guy. Now, he's getting double doubles.
Tristan Thompson has been a solid rebounder at least 2 years now but you weren't seeing these kinds of dunks and energy as frequently. Love has been out all playoffs, and yet they still breeze through teams without much of an issue. Admittedly they are East teams, but ones with a good record, and in the playoffs.

Cleveland was a 33-49 team last year that missed the playoffs, with Kyrie Irving at the helm. This year they were a 53 win team, despite losing a good amount of games when LeBron was out.

Which JR do you think comes playing next to Kobe, the one untying shoes and partying during the playoffs? Or the one catching the cross-court assist, raining stepback 3s all throughout the ECF last week?

What happened to Miami after bran leaves? Yes, Bosh was out a good part of the season. Yes, Wade was hurt. But they still picked up Dragic, a huge upgrade at PG, and Whiteside who was a revelation at C.

At the end of the day, they go from a 54 win team to a 37 win team, missing the playoffs.

LeBron's impact on a team is simply on a level we have not witnessed in a while.

You can't say Kobe is better than LeBron "because 5/7 is better than 2/6" and then turn around and call the Horry argument childish.

:applause:

[Optimus Prime]

Bill Cartwright :roll:

LeBeta stans desperate :facepalm

[diamenz]

Yet even with such a disadvantage, Bron is the best finisher at the rim we've ever seen. Doesn't make sense...

lol wat? it's obvious you youngsters never watched mike... my mind is blown.