Lebron's GOATNESS should compensate for talent gap vs. GS

[3ball]

Just like it did for the Bulls in 1992 vs. the super-stacked Portland team that had WAAAAAY more talent than his Bulls - accordingly, MJ averaged 36/6/7 to compensate (despite going up against the best player at his position, Drexler).

Ditto in 1993 versus the Suns (41/9/6 averages).

So if Lebron is on MJ's level, why is everyone assuming he won't put up these kinds of numbers?

Why are they making up an excuse for him by saying his team has less talent?.. If he's on MJ's level, it's not supposed to matter.. If he's the GOAT, it doesn't matter.

And see, THAT'S how we know he's not the GOAT or anywhere near: no one ever lowered expectations for the GOAT.. But for Lebron, it's routine and standard.

[SouBeachTalents]

Well where was Jordan's GOATness in the playoffs before Pippen & Phil showed up?

[Trollsmasher]

The Bulls were overwhelming favorites going into those series. Not a single expert picked their opponents.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Well where was Jordan's GOATness in the playoffs before Pippen & Phil showed up?
:eek: Don't do him like that

1-9

[Kblaze8855]

Better players than Lebron lose when outgunned. Jordan lost when outgunned plenty of times. Team is worse rational people dont just assume they win no matter what due to some fairytale "goatness". This is real life.

Being the best individual doesnt mean your team wins. If it did Jordan would have 9 rings not 6 and Wilt would have 10.

The greatest of all time....still lose more than they win.

This is preschool shit here.

[Andrei89]

Well where was Jordan's GOATness in the playoffs before Pippen & Phil showed up?


Although I believe Jordan is truly the GOAT, this guy has a point here.

[dh144498]

Just like it did for the Bulls in 1992 vs. the super-stacked Portland team that had WAAAAAY more talent than his Bulls - accordingly, MJ averaged 36/6/7 to compensate (despite going up against the best player at his position, Drexler).

Ditto in 1993 versus the Suns (41/9/6 averages).

So if Lebron is on MJ's level, why is everyone assuming he won't put up these kinds of numbers?

Why are they making up an excuse for him by saying his team has less talent?.. If he's on MJ's level, it's not supposed to matter.. If he's the GOAT, it doesn't matter.

And see, THAT'S how we know he's not the GOAT or anywhere near: no one ever lowered expectations for the GOAT.. But for Lebron, it's routine and standard.

:coleman:

[guy]

If Kyrie is playing, which he is supposed to, there's not much of a talent gap anyway.

[ShawkFactory]

The only ones who call Lebron the GOAT are those who want to piss off people like you. Douchebag.

[SexSymbol]

Curry is on the same level as Lebron impact wise, and Thompson is just a tad bit below Kyrie. The rest of starting five is pretty much equal, but GSW has a better bench. This should be a close series, I predict 4-1 GSW wins

[JerrySeinfeld]

Dude Bill Laimbeer said that LeBron was better than Jordan so it's official.

Get over it.

[SugarHill]

Curry is on the same level as Lebron impact wise, and Thompson is just a tad bit below Kyrie. The rest of starting five is pretty much equal, but GSW has a better bench. This should be a close series, I predict 4-1 GSW wins
4-1 is close?

[JohnMax]

http://nobodytouchesjordan.blogspot.com/?view=magazine

3ball, I recommend reading this pro-Jordan website. It exposes Lebron and the Jordan haters.

[6 for 24]

http://nobodytouchesjordan.blogspot.com/?view=magazine

3ball, I recommend reading this pro-Jordan website. It exposes Lebron and the Jordan haters.

I also recommend this Jordan encyclopedia (http://airjudden2.tripod.com/ejf/indexf.html) for a good historical perspective. It was among the required literature for my advanced stats degree.

[edrick]

Curry is on the same level as Lebron impact wise, and Thompson is just a tad bit below Kyrie. The rest of starting five is pretty much equal, but GSW has a better bench. This should be a close series, I predict 4-1 GSW wins

That's comical.

Imagine the Warriors without their 2 next best players. They would be ****ed.

Thompson just a tad below Kyrie? LOL, if you mean an injured Kyrie, sure.

Lebron haters are so funny.

[Sarcastic]

Well where was Jordan's GOATness in the playoffs before Pippen & Phil showed up?


He wasn't the GOAT at that point. You have to work towards it.

It's earned not given.

[3ball]

Thread Cliffs:

Assuming Kyrie is hurt and doesn't play, Lebron cannot get a pass for losing in the Finals due to lesser team talent - as the only all-time great in this series, he should be able to get all-time great STATS to offset the talent deficit (like MJ did in 1992 and 1993).

Of course, if Kyrie is healthy then there isn't much of a talent gap anyway, and I wouldn't expect Lebron to need all-time great stats to win.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

How come Jordan's GOATNESS didn't prevent him from going 1-9 in the playoffs?

[3ball]

How come Jordan's GOATNESS didn't prevent him from going 1-9 in the playoffs?
1-9 is what happens when you play the 1986 and 1987 Boston Celtics with ZERO supporting help (WOAT supporting cast)...

He'd have been undefeated if he got to play say, Gilbert Arenas Wizards in 3 consecutive playoffs.

[nba_55]

1-9 is what happens when you play the 1986 and 1987 Boston Celtics with ZERO supporting help (WOAT supporting cast)... as opposed to Gilbert Arenas Wizards

1-9.
Where was his goatness?

[nba_55]

The Bulls were overwhelming favorites going into those series. Not a single expert picked their opponents.

this.

[nba_55]

How come Jordan's GOATNESS didn't prevent him from going 1-9 in the playoffs?
this

1-9

[Out_In_Utah]

Dude Bill Laimbeer said that LeBron was better than Jordan so it's official.

Get over it.

Bill so salty.

[3ball]

The Bulls were overwhelming favorites going into those series. Not a single expert picked their opponents


They were not overwhelming favorites - that's a lie... Most people thought Phoenix would win.

But that's not the point - re-read the title or the OP - it's about TALENT - Portland and Phoenix had far more TALENT than the Bulls, which required the GOAT stats and performance from MJ.

Does that make sense?

[nba_55]

They were not overwhelming favorites - that's a lie... Most people thought Phoenix would win.

But that's not the point - re-read the title or the OP - it's about TALENT - Portland and Phoenix had far more TALENT than the Bulls, which required the GOAT stats and performance from MJ.

Does that make sense?

no. 1-9 makes sense. Where was his GOATNESS?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

1-9 is what happens when you play the 1986 and 1987 Boston Celtics with ZERO supporting help (WOAT supporting cast)...

He'd have been undefeated if he got to play say, Gilbert Arenas Wizards in 3 consecutive playoffs.

So what you're saying is that the better team typically wins and this mythical "goatness" doesn't really exist? Wow that's interesting.

[3ball]

So what you're saying is that the better team typically wins and this mythical "goatness" doesn't really exist? Wow that's interesting.
Of course the better team wins - that's why the Bulls won in 1992 and 1993, despite having much less talent.

But MJ's GOAT stats and performance were the biggest component of the Bulls production and being a "better team".

Of course, I know you like using the "better team" verbage to completely ignore MJ's GOAT stats and performance, so this type of reality reigns on your parade of illogical thinking.

[dubeta]

Don't know if this was already posted, but.. 1-9

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Of course the better team wins - that's why the Bulls won in 1992 and 1993, despite having much less talent.

But MJ's GOAT stats and performance was the biggest component of the Bulls production and being a "better team".

Of course, I know you like using the "better team" verbage to completely ignore MJ's GOAT stats and performance, so I know I'm reigning on your illogical parade.

Not really. Of course MJ is part of the team. Just like he was in the beginning of his career when he went 1-9. IE his individual talent wasn't enough to overcome the disparity between the teams as a whole.

Which is what happened to LeBron in last year...and will probably again this year.

[3ball]

Don't know if this was already posted, but.. 1-9
1-9 is what happens when you play the 1986 and 1987 Boston Celtics with ZERO supporting help (WOAT supporting cast)...

He would've been undefeated if he got to play say, Gilbert Arenas Wizards in 3 consecutive playoffs.

[3ball]

Don't know if this was already posted


It was, but no problem.. Let me update you on the thread:


THREAD CLIFFS:

Assuming Kyrie is hurt and doesn't play, Lebron cannot get a pass for losing in the Finals due to lesser team talent - he's the only all-time great in this series, so he should be able to get all-time great STATS to offset the talent deficit (like MJ did in 1992 and 1993).

Of course, if Kyrie is healthy, then there isn't much of a talent gap anyway, and I wouldn't expect Lebron to need all-time great stats to win.

[dubeta]

1-9 is what happens when you play the 1986 and 1987 Boston Celtics with ZERO supporting help (WOAT supporting cast)...

He would've been undefeated if he got to play say, Gilbert Arenas Wizards in 3 consecutive playoffs.


That is similar to the current situation of LeBron facing the 67 win Warriors

Jordan got swept

If LeBron just wins 1 game against a similar Warriors team, he is automatically better than Jordan, no debate.

[sd3035]

If you take Lebron and Curry off each team, Cavs would kill GS

Curry will be the x factor in this series

[RoundMoundOfReb]

If you take Lebron and Curry off each team, Cavs would kill GS

Curry will be the x factor in this series
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[AlphaWolf24]

Without Pippen.....

MJ = Baldheaded Dominique Wilkins GOATNESSESS

[AlphaWolf24]

speaking of GOATNESS...

IMO list of GOATNESS...


Hardaway GOATNESS Crossover

McHale GOATNESS Dropstep

Wilt GOATNESS body

Magic GOATNESS passing

Hakeem GOATNESS reverse pivot

Pippen GOATNESS ****

Grant GOATNESS Goggles

Jordan GOATNESS hands

Kobe GOATNESS cheekbones

more?

[funnystuff]

Just crazy to think, Jordan would of REMAINED a loser if Pippen was never consummated.

[funnystuff]

If you take Lebron and Curry off each team, Cavs would kill GS

Curry will be the x factor in this series
hahaha stop posting

[1987_Lakers]

What a retarded thread. The downplaying of the '92 Bulls talent is the most hilarious part. 67 Wins. Top 5 in both offense & Defense. Jordan/Pippen/Grant was the best trio in the league at that point, Phil Jackson as your head coach. Why is the OP trying to downplay the talent MJ played with?

The Bulls NEVER played a team like the 2015 Warriors in the Finals or even the 2014 Spurs.

[ShawkFactory]

If you take Lebron and Curry off each team, Cavs would kill GS

Curry will be the x factor in this series
Oh shit. Not bad

[Sarcastic]

What a retarded thread. The downplaying of the '92 Bulls talent is the most hilarious part. 67 Wins. Top 5 in both offense & Defense. Jordan/Pippen/Grant was the best trio in the league at that point, Phil Jackson as your head coach. Why is the OP trying to downplay the talent MJ played with?

The Bulls NEVER played a team like the 2015 Warriors in the Finals or even the 2014 Spurs.

Suns, Jazz, an Sonics were as good if not better than the Warriors and Spurs.

[1987_Lakers]

Suns, Jazz, an Sonics were as good if not better than the Warriors and Spurs.

Nope.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Suns, Jazz, an Sonics were as good if not better than the Warriors and Spurs.


2015 Warriors SRS: 10.01
2014 Spurs: 8.00
2013 Spurs: 6.67
2012 Thunder: 6.44
2011 Mavs: 4.41
2007 Spurs: 8.35

1998 Jazz: 5.73
1997 Jazz: 7.97
1996 Sonics: 7.40
1993 Suns: 6.66
1992 Blazers: 6.94
1991 Lakers: 6.73

[pauk]

Better players than Lebron lose when outgunned. Jordan lost when outgunned plenty of times. Team is worse rational people dont just assume they win no matter what due to some fairytale "goatness". This is real life.

Being the best individual doesnt mean your team wins. If it did Jordan would have 9 rings not 6 and Wilt would have 10.

The greatest of all time....still lose more than they win.

This is preschool shit here.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/msty.gif

[Budadiiii]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/msty.gif
lol.... this gif makes it seem like you are aggravated by the trolling losers

listen man. you're better than all this. you're better than letting these trolls get to you.

lebron is probably the 3rd or 4th best player of all time. its between him and shaq.

no matter what happens in the finals, that won't change. he's about as good as you possibly can get as an individual.

i know about trolling losers because i was once a trolling drug addicted loser myself. so i know their minds.

do not ever show them any sort of attention. EVER. every time you do a cancer cell multiplies in your body. DON'T EVER GIVE A TROLL ATTENTION.

[pauk]

As a Jordan stan you should know better than anybody else that "Best team > Best player".... that what an individual player does means NOTHING if your supporting cast/you as a collective group aint good enough to beat the much better opposing team.... that you can be the greatest player to ever lace em up and not even reach the Finals...... Jordan is one of the finest examples to that, he played some of the most epic basketball ever in the playoffs (better than even in most of his championship runs) and still couldnt even reach the Finals in 7 years....

You think he got to the Finals and won the championship afterwards because he got THAT much better or because his team got better?

That moment when you realise that this is a TEAM GAME and not 1 on 1, no way.... :eek:

[guy]

As a Jordan stan you should know better than anybody else that "Best team > Best player".... that what an individual player does means NOTHING if your supporting cast/you as a collective group aint good enough to beat the much better opposing team.... that you can be the greatest player to ever lace em up and not even reach the Finals...... Jordan is one of the finest examples to that, he played some of the most epic basketball ever in the playoffs (better than even in most of his championship runs) and still couldnt even reach the Finals in 7 years....

You think he got to the Finals and won the championship afterwards because he got THAT much better or because his team got better?

That moment when you realise that this is a TEAM GAME and not 1 on 1, no way.... :eek:

Ummm as has been said there is not much of a talent gap anyway. No excuses.

[3ball]

MJ lost when outgunned plenty of times

This is preschool shit here.


I know you agree that great players have the ability to compensate for a talent deficit between two teams..

But obviously, the talent deficit can't be too severe... A kindergarten team can't ever beat a high school team no matter what kind of 5-year old phenom they have... Or a team with NO supporting cast (MJ's Bulls when he first came in the league) can't beat a legit top-3 all-time team like the 80's Celtics..

But when the gap isn't super-massive or ridiculous - then YES - a great player should be able to compensate fully for the talent deficit - and MJ always did (again, see 1992 and 1993 Finals).

But carry on with your argument technique of ignoring the grey and seeing everything in black and white.. It's a poor technique.. Preschool shit tbh.
.

[3ball]

Btw, it should be mentioned that ANYTIME a player averages 35 PPG and wins, his team had the weaker supporting cast.

Obviously, if a guy averages 35 PPG and loses, then he maybe he was shooting too much.. But even in losses, if a guy averaged that much, he normally will have the weaker supporting cast.

[hateraid]

1-9 is what happens when you play the 1986 and 1987 Boston Celtics with ZERO supporting help (WOAT supporting cast)...

He'd have been undefeated if he got to play say, Gilbert Arenas Wizards in 3 consecutive playoffs.
He's the amazing Jordan right? No making excuses for him. GOAT player gonna will his team to the top. According to you Jordan can be inserted into any team and make them a champion. That's a true marker of GOATness

[hateraid]

Btw, it should be mentioned that ANYTIME a player averages 35 PPG and wins, his team had the weaker supporting cast.

Obviously, if a guy averages 35 PPG and loses, then he maybe he was shooting too much.. But even in losses, if a guy averaged that much, he normally will have the weaker supporting cast.
If a player shoots 35 and wins it means his teammates are great role players and has a dominant second player who contributes with other factors.
Quit reaching with that shit

[3ball]

If a player shoots 35 and wins it means his teammates are great role players and has a dominant second player who contributes with other factors.
Quit reaching with that shit
wtf are you talking about

if Player A has to average 35 PPG to win and Player B only has to average 25 PPG to win, then Player A has less help.. Period... 2 + 2 = 4.

[K Xerxes]

wtf are you talking about

if Player A has to average 35 PPG to win and Player B only has to average 25 PPG to win, then Player A has less help.. Period... 2 + 2 = 4.

'Help' is not defined solely by points. Did you play any level of organised basketball? For instance, your 'help' can be dominant defensively and mean that the other team scores less points. Or rebound and create extra possessions. Or playmake and create easy shots for role players. Or set mean screens. Or lead the team off the court with veteran presence. There are so many factors to the game of basketball.

Jordan is the greatest scorer and player, but I hate it when people reduce the game to nothing but scoring. STFU you imbecile.

[oarabbus]

I know you agree that great players have the ability to compensate for a talent deficit between two teams..

But obviously, the talent deficit can't be too severe... A kindergarten team can't ever beat a high school team no matter what kind of 5-year old phenom they have... Or a team with NO supporting cast (MJ's Bulls when he first came in the league) can't beat a legit top-3 all-time team like the 80's Celtics..

But when the gap isn't super-massive or ridiculous - then YES - a great player should be able to compensate fully for the talent deficit - and MJ always did (again, see 1992 and 1993 Finals).

But carry on with your argument technique of ignoring the grey and seeing everything in black and white.. It's a poor technique.. Preschool shit tbh.
.



:roll: :roll:


Did you try to use the analogy of a high school team playing a kindergarten team to illustrate the difference between TWO NBA TEAMS :biggums:

[DMAVS41]

wtf are you talking about

if Player A has to average 35 PPG to win and Player B only has to average 25 PPG to win, then Player A has less help.. Period... 2 + 2 = 4.

What the **** is this?

Tim Duncan in 03 averaged like 25 points iirc...and he had nowhere near the help MJ had in 93 when MJ averaged 35 a game.

Seriously...you need to get your shit together man.

This logic is just horribly simplistic and factually false.

[Springsteen]

insidehoops: mental gymnastics

[ralph_i_el]

3ball's logical inconsistencies make me:facepalm

[guy]

What the **** is this?

Tim Duncan in 03 averaged like 25 points iirc...and he had nowhere near the help MJ had in 93 when MJ averaged 35 a game.

Seriously...you need to get your shit together man.

This logic is just horribly simplistic and factually false.

I think his point is if someone is producing 35 ppg then he wasn't getting much help scoring wise, and the same logic can be applied to other things. He's not totally off. Makes some sense. Of course it's flawed cause pace needs to be taken into account, margin of victory matters, and teammates may have been capable of replacing some of that production and just held back. But I remember those Bulls series, and for a lot of them there's no way they would've won if he wasn't averaging at least 30+ ppg. You can't say that for almost anyone else. Doesn't necessarily mean he had less help. Maybe just less of a different KIND of help.

[3ball]

3ball's logical inconsistencies make me:facepalm
you should be specific

[3ball]

Tim Duncan in 03 averaged like 25 points iirc...and he had nowhere near the help MJ had in 93 when MJ averaged 35 a game.

Seriously...you need to get your shit together man.


Duncan had better offensive help (depth) AND defensive help (Robinson).

The Spurs DRtg was 99.7 compared to the Bulls 106.1.. That means Duncan didn't have to score as much... Comprende?

Seriously...you need to get your shit together man.
.

[3ball]

Of course it's flawed cause pace needs to be taken into account


Pace is NOT a factor - today's pace is 93.8, which was the same as the Bulls played during MJ's career:


Bulls Pace:

1985:. 99.4.... 6% faster than today's 93.8 pace
1986:. 99.7.... 6%
1987:. 95.8.... 2%
1988:. 95.5.... 2%
1989:. 97.0.... 4%
1990:. 96.7.... 4%
1991:. 95.6.... 2%
1992:. 95.4.... 2%
1993:. 92.5.... (1%) slower than today's 93.8 pace
1995:. 92.0.... (2%)
1996:. 91.1.... (3%)
1997:. 90.0.... (4%)
1998:. 89.0.... (5%)


Jordan 3-peated at a pace between 2% and 6% FASTER than today's game, and then again at a pace that was between 1% and 5% SLOWER than today's game.





margin of victory matters


Only if you don't know the numbers - in the 1993 Finals, the Suns ORtg and PPG was 113.0 and 106.7, which was EXACTLY THE SAME as the Bulls - so every drop of MJ's record 41 PPG was needed.

In the 1997 Finals, MJ hit the game-winner in Game 1, another game-winner in the flu game, and the game-winning assist to Kerr in Game 6.. In Game 3 of 1991 Finals, if he doesn't hit the game-tying basket with 1 second left to send it to OT, the Bulls go down 2-1..

So this notion that MJ could've done less and still won is ridiculous - it's come down to that when arguing against MJ: "Well, did he HAVE to do that much?".. This is EASILY the worst argument of all time, about ANYTHNG... :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm





and teammates may have been capable of replacing some of that production and just held back.


Again, you haven't thought it through... Pippen and Kukoc's stats barely changed when MJ left in 1994 - their PPG went up about 1 point each, and their other categories were unchanged..

So teammates weren't "holding back"... MJ's style of play allowed them to play to their capacity alongside him - that's why his teammates stats barely change whether he was there or not... Compare that to Wade, Bosh and Love's stats with and without Lebron - now THAT'S a material change.





But I remember those Bulls series, and for a lot of them there's no way they would've won if he wasn't averaging at least 30+ ppg. You can't say that for almost anyone else. Doesn't necessarily mean he had less help. Maybe just less of a different KIND of help


Oh, you mean scoring???... The most important aspect of the game?... Scoring + clutch > any stat category.

And it's amazing how great a scorer MJ was - he was SO great and people are SO enamored with it, that they completely forget MJ was the best wing defender for years - he won DPOY and was 10-time first team all defense.. But the way people talk, you'd think he was James Harden on defense and gunning like Iverson on offense.

MJ also averaged more assists and assist percentage than Pippen - MJ's assist percentage was 24.9% and 28.2% in regular season and playoffs, compared to Pippen's 23.4% and 21.2%.. So it's not even close.. This is worth mentioning because the offense ran through MJ - he was an elite playmaker and decision-maker - so he led in those areas in addition to thee scoring.
.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Pace is NOT a factor - today's pace is 93.8, which was the same as the Bulls played during MJ's career:


Bulls Pace:

1985:. 99.4.... 6% faster than today's 93.8 pace
1986:. 99.7.... 6%
1987:. 95.8.... 2%
1988:. 95.5.... 2%
1989:. 97.0.... 4%
1990:. 96.7.... 4%
1991:. 95.6.... 2%
1992:. 95.4.... 2%
1993:. 92.5.... (1%) slower than today's 93.8 pace
1995:. 92.0.... (2%)
1996:. 91.1.... (3%)
1997:. 90.0.... (4%)
1998:. 89.0.... (5%)


Jordan 3-peated at a pace between 2% and 6% FASTER than today's game, and then again at a pace that was between 1% and 5% SLOWER than today's game.



Only if you don't know the numbers - in the 1993 Finals, the Suns ORtg and PPG was 113.0 and 106.7, which was EXACTLY THE SAME as the Bulls - so every drop of MJ's record 41 PPG was needed.

In the 1997 Finals, MJ hit the game-winner in Game 1, another game-winner in the flu game, and the game-winning assist to Kerr in Game 6.. In Game 3 of 1991 Finals, if he doesn't hit the game-tying basket with 1 second left to send it to OT, the Bulls go down 2-1..

So this notion that MJ could've done less and still won is ridiculous - it's come down to that when arguing against MJ: "Well, did he HAVE to do that much?".. This is EASILY the worst argument of all time, about ANYTHNG... :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm



Again, you haven't thought it through... Pippen and Kukoc's stats barely changed when MJ left in 1994 - their PPG went up about 1 point each, and their other categories were unchanged..

So teammates weren't "holding back"... MJ's style of play allowed them to play to their capacity alongside him - that's why his teammates stats barely change whether he was there or not... Compare that to Wade, Bosh and Love's stats with and without Lebron - now THAT'S a material change.



Oh, you mean scoring???... The most important aspect of the game?... Scoring + clutch > any stat category.

And it's amazing how great a scorer MJ was - he was SO great and people are so enamored with it, that they completely forget MJ was the best wing defender for many years - he won DPOY and was 10-time first team all defense.. But the way people talk, you'd think he was James Harden on defense and Iverson chucker on offense.

MJ also averaged more assists and assist percentage than Pippen - MJ's assist percentage was 24.9% and 28.2% in regular season and playoffs, compared to Pippen's 23.4% and 21.2%.. So it's not even close.. This is worth mentioning because the offense ran through MJ - he was an elite playmaker and decision-maker - so he led in those areas in addition to thee scoring.
1-9

[RobertdeMeijer]

Better players than Lebron lose when outgunned. Jordan lost when outgunned plenty of times. Team is worse rational people dont just assume they win no matter what due to some fairytale "goatness". This is real life.

Being the best individual doesnt mean your team wins. If it did Jordan would have 9 rings not 6 and Wilt would have 10.

The greatest of all time....still lose more than they win.

This is preschool shit here.


That's what's so amazing about the NBA: the fairytale 'goatness' is actually close to reality. People looking for this fairytale can actually find it and believe in it.

[NBASTATMAN]

That's comical.

Imagine the Warriors without their 2 next best players. They would be ****ed.

Thompson just a tad below Kyrie? LOL, if you mean an injured Kyrie, sure.

Lebron haters are so funny.


Thompson plays defense and Kyrie doesn't.. Kyrie is a better ball handler and passer... I would say Kyrie is better but not by much... I was so happy last season when Thompson didn't get traded to the Lakers.... They would have been so lucky to get a guy who defends and can score SUPER EFFICIENTLY... Unlike what they have now..

[DMAVS41]

Duncan had better offensive help (depth) AND defensive help (Robinson).

The Spurs DRtg was 99.7 compared to the Bulls 106.1.. That means Duncan didn't have to score as much... Comprende?

Seriously...you need to get your shit together man.
.

Just no.

The reason the 03 Spurs had that great defense was because of Duncan...who in 03, made a far greater defensive impact than even Pippen or MJ by anchoring that defense.

You can't compare drtgs and ortgs across eras like that.

Robinson was an old man that played 23 minutes a game.

I'm not even going to get into this shit...

But your post actually proves my point. You can't go off of just ppg scored by the best player. You just said the Spurs didn't have to score as much because they played better defense. You realize Duncan was by far the biggest reason for that defense...right?

So just no...you are wrong and your logic makes absolutely no sense. How you don't see that is beyond me.

Duncan only averaged 21 points per game in the playoffs for his career. Dirk averaged 26 per game.

Dirk is not ****ing better than Duncan because of that...

Your analysis ignores so much.

[NBASTATMAN]

If you take Lebron and Curry off each team, Cavs would kill GS

Curry will be the x factor in this series


What was the Cavs record without Lebron? IDIOTS ON THIS BOARD...:confusedshrug:


Curry is a great player and by far way more efficient than current Lebron but Lebron plays a great all around game... Current Cavs without Lebron would be sitting watching these playoffs...

[NBASTATMAN]

Just like it did for the Bulls in 1992 vs. the super-stacked Portland team that had WAAAAAY more talent than his Bulls - accordingly, MJ averaged 36/6/7 to compensate (despite going up against the best player at his position, Drexler).

Ditto in 1993 versus the Suns (41/9/6 averages).

So if Lebron is on MJ's level, why is everyone assuming he won't put up these kinds of numbers?

Why are they making up an excuse for him by saying his team has less talent?.. If he's on MJ's level, it's not supposed to matter.. If he's the GOAT, it doesn't matter.

And see, THAT'S how we know he's not the GOAT or anywhere near: no one ever lowered expectations for the GOAT.. But for Lebron, it's routine and standard.



Lebron is no where near that Level of a scorer... And he has been really Kobe like lately so I doubt his scoring will compensate... Kyrie needs to be at his best for the Cavs to contend...

[guy]

Pace is NOT a factor - today's pace is 93.8, which was the same as the Bulls played during MJ's career:


Bulls Pace:

1985:. 99.4.... 6% faster than today's 93.8 pace
1986:. 99.7.... 6%
1987:. 95.8.... 2%
1988:. 95.5.... 2%
1989:. 97.0.... 4%
1990:. 96.7.... 4%
1991:. 95.6.... 2%
1992:. 95.4.... 2%
1993:. 92.5.... (1%) slower than today's 93.8 pace
1995:. 92.0.... (2%)
1996:. 91.1.... (3%)
1997:. 90.0.... (4%)
1998:. 89.0.... (5%)


Jordan 3-peated at a pace between 2% and 6% FASTER than today's game, and then again at a pace that was between 1% and 5% SLOWER than today's game.



Only if you don't know the numbers - in the 1993 Finals, the Suns ORtg and PPG was 113.0 and 106.7, which was EXACTLY THE SAME as the Bulls - so every drop of MJ's record 41 PPG was needed.

In the 1997 Finals, MJ hit the game-winner in Game 1, another game-winner in the flu game, and the game-winning assist to Kerr in Game 6.. In Game 3 of 1991 Finals, if he doesn't hit the game-tying basket with 1 second left to send it to OT, the Bulls go down 2-1..

So this notion that MJ could've done less and still won is ridiculous - it's come down to that when arguing against MJ: "Well, did he HAVE to do that much?".. This is EASILY the worst argument of all time, about ANYTHNG... :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm



Again, you haven't thought it through... Pippen and Kukoc's stats barely changed when MJ left in 1994 - their PPG went up about 1 point each, and their other categories were unchanged..

So teammates weren't "holding back"... MJ's style of play allowed them to play to their capacity alongside him - that's why his teammates stats barely change whether he was there or not... Compare that to Wade, Bosh and Love's stats with and without Lebron - now THAT'S a material change.



Oh, you mean scoring???... The most important aspect of the game?... Scoring + clutch > any stat category.

And it's amazing how great a scorer MJ was - he was SO great and people are SO enamored with it, that they completely forget MJ was the best wing defender for years - he won DPOY and was 10-time first team all defense.. But the way people talk, you'd think he was James Harden on defense and gunning like Iverson on offense.

MJ also averaged more assists and assist percentage than Pippen - MJ's assist percentage was 24.9% and 28.2% in regular season and playoffs, compared to Pippen's 23.4% and 21.2%.. So it's not even close.. This is worth mentioning because the offense ran through MJ - he was an elite playmaker and decision-maker - so he led in those areas in addition to thee scoring.
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I wasn't referring to any specific Jordan example until the end, and then I basically agreed with you when it came to Jordan and the Bulls. The f*** is your problem?:oldlol:

[Megabox!]

3ball is legit insane.

[pauk]

Btw, it should be mentioned that ANYTIME a player averages 35 PPG and wins, his team had the weaker supporting cast.

Obviously, if a guy averages 35 PPG and loses, then he maybe he was shooting too much.. But even in losses, if a guy averaged that much, he normally will have the weaker supporting cast.

What if he averages close to a 30 point triple double and plays DPOY level defense and still loses? Nowhere close to the impact of simply chucking for 35 ppg?

[3ball]

What if he averages close to a 30 point triple double and plays DPOY level defense and still loses? Nowhere close to the impact of simply chucking for 35 ppg?
a 30 point triple-double would work, but I doubt he can win while shooting sub-40% like against Atlanta.

If he loses shooting 40% again, then obviously, there was room for improvement - i.e. he could've shot 50% and they might have won.. So criticism would still be warranted.

The only way he can lose and avoid criticism from his critics is to put up the GOAT stats and shoot a respectable percentage, like MJ did.. And of course, if he wins and DOESN'T need GOAT stats to do it, then we can say he had more help (likely from a murdering Kyrie).

[Kingwillball]

a 30 point triple-double would work, but I doubt he can win while shooting sub-40% like against Atlanta.

If he loses shooting 40% again, then obviously, there was room for improvement - i.e. he could've shot 50% and they might have won.. So criticism would still be warranted.

The only way he can lose and avoid criticism from his critics is to put up the GOAT stats and shoot a respectable percentage, like MJ did.. And of course, if he wins and DOESN'T need GOAT stats to do it, then we can say he had more help (likely from a murdering Kyrie).

If he puts up goat stats this series will be a quick one in favor of Cavs I have news for you.. With Irving contributing if he plays like Hawks series even this series goes to Cavs. In fact only way Cavs lose is if lebron plays poorly Irving gets re injured and Cavs shooters go cold.

[Dro]

Although I believe Jordan is truly the GOAT, this guy has a point here.
No he doesn't. Jordan was still putting up ridiculous numbers despite being double and triple teamed. The only thing that changed when Pippen and Phil got there is that he had a better team, more support. Well duh. These dudes act like Jordan was putting up scrub numbers those first several years, rofl. People will say anything to tear him down.

You could do that for any player. Where was Kobe before Pau and Bynum got there? Losing in the 1st round. We have no clue what Duncan would have been because he's always had Pop. Where would Magic be if he didn't get drafted to the Lakers and play with Riley and a great supporting cast? How about Bird? Its stupid. Base opinions on the players actual play and did he do pretty much everything he could to help his team win? Of course.

So stupid...

[Dro]

If he puts up goat stats this series will be a quick one in favor of Cavs I have news for you.. With Irving contributing if he plays like Hawks series even this series goes to Cavs. In fact only way Cavs lose is if lebron plays poorly Irving gets re injured and Cavs shooters go cold.
I won't say thats the ONLY way but if Lebron plays great, I expect the Cavs to win...

[Sakkreth]

Better players than Lebron lose when outgunned. Jordan lost when outgunned plenty of times. Team is worse rational people dont just assume they win no matter what due to some fairytale "goatness". This is real life.

Being the best individual doesnt mean your team wins. If it did Jordan would have 9 rings not 6 and Wilt would have 10.

The greatest of all time....still lose more than they win.

This is preschool shit here.

Yeah, except for individual sports ofc.

[Queen Sansa]

Now I'm wondering if OP is just a troll trying so hard to diminish Lebron that is making him look stupid or if he is really THIS stupid.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Just like it did for the Bulls in 1992 vs. the super-stacked Portland team that had WAAAAAY more talent than his Bulls - accordingly, MJ averaged 36/6/7 to compensate (despite going up against the best player at his position, Drexler).

Ditto in 1993 versus the Suns (41/9/6 averages).

So if Lebron is on MJ's level, why is everyone assuming he won't put up these kinds of numbers?

Why are they making up an excuse for him by saying his team has less talent?.. If he's on MJ's level, it's not supposed to matter.. If he's the GOAT, it doesn't matter.

And see, THAT'S how we know he's not the GOAT or anywhere near: no one ever lowered expectations for the GOAT.. But for Lebron, it's routine and standard.

Great poster here fellas ^