MJ, Lebron, Kobe & Duncan's Competition [ELO Comparsion]

[Beastmode88]

Copied from Reddit, Enjoy. :cheers:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-best-nba-teams-of-all-time-according-to-elo/

http://i.imgur.com/jdi7v7k.jpg

in before jordan's wizards

[lilteapot]

Damn OP, such a hot take.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Solid start but you don't get props for losing to good teams. Show only the teams they actually beat and now you have something worth looking at.

[Bankaii]

This stat is pretty flawed. First, Timmy and Lebron will play more playoff series. Secondly, Kobe is my dude but lol at him getting credit for beating 90s teams. Dude played 14 minutes is the '97 playoffs. And it's listing some teams they didn't even beat.

[DonDadda59]

Solid start but you don't get props for losing to good teams. Show only the teams they actually beat and now you have something worth looking at.

And stats. Don't forget the stats. Dudes getting credit for eliminating a 61 win team while putting up 4/1/0 in half the games is a bit of an oversight.


Secondly, Kobe is my dude but lol at him getting credit for beating 90s teams. Dude played 14 minutes is the '97 playoffs.

:no:

Beansie has the most wins against 50+ win teams in NBA History... even though for most of them, he wasn't even the best player on his own team.

And it looks like the best team he played against... he didn't even play against them. The art of playing without even playing... how great is our gawd? :eek: :bowdown:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe 02 1663
Kobe 04 1658
Kobe 01 1656
Kobe 08 1646
Kobe 09 1632
LeBron 11 1630
Kobe 10 1629
Kobe 00 1624
Jordan 93 1615
Jordan 97 1611
Jordan 98 1597
Jordan 96 1585
LeBron 12 1583
LeBron 15 1581
Lebron 07 1562
Jordan 92 1562
LeBron 14 1553
LeBron 13 1549
Jordan 91 1538

Stats don't lie :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

And stats. Don't forget the stats. Dudes getting credit for eliminating a 61 win team while putting up 4/1/0 in half the games is a bit of an oversight.



:no:

Beansie has the most wins against 50+ win teams in NBA History... even though for most of them, he wasn't even the best player on his own team.

And it looks like the best team he played against... he didn't even play against them. The art of playing without even playing... how great is our gawd? :eek: :bowdown:

he was the leading scorer in 16 of them :facepalm :facepalm

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe 02 1663
Kobe 04 1658
Kobe 01 1656
Kobe 08 1646
Kobe 09 1632
LeBron 11 1630
Kobe 10 1629
Kobe 00 1624
Jordan 93 1615
Jordan 97 1611
Jordan 98 1597
Jordan 96 1585
LeBron 12 1583
LeBron 15 1581
Lebron 07 1562
Jordan 92 1562
LeBron 14 1553
LeBron 13 1549
Jordan 91 1538

Stats don't lie :confusedshrug:

inb4 another don dadda meltdown :roll: :roll:

[DonDadda59]

he was the leading scorer in 16 of them :facepalm :facepalm

How about posting full stat lines? :confusedshrug:

Feel free to throw in advanced stats too since that's the reason for the season.


Stats don't lie :confusedshrug:

Except for when they don't agree with you... amirite?

Playoffs Ws/48 for 'Kobe's best seasons' (your favorite stat :cheers: )

2002
Shaq .236
Horry .153
Bean .148

2004
Shaq .202
Bean .145

2001
Shaq .260
Bean .260

2008
Colby Karl .214
Bean .178

2009
Bean .238
Pau .221

2010
Pau .224
Bean .190

2000
Shaq .224
Bean .115

The best player only once... Beans :bowdown:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

How about posting full stat lines? :confusedshrug:

Feel free to throw in advanced stats too since that's the reason for the season.



Except for when they don't agree with you... amirite?

Playoffs Ws/48 for 'Kobe's best seasons' (your favorite stat :cheers: )


2001
Shaq .260
Bean .260


The best player only once... Beans :bowdown:

Good point . Kobe was as good as prime 2001 Shaq. :wtf:

What does that have to do with Jordan and Lebron's cakewalks to the Finals?

[DonDadda59]

inb4 another don dadda meltdown :roll: :roll:

http://bitsandpieces.us/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/indiana-jones-hat.gif

http://i.imgur.com/2K3Gzlm.gif

By the skin of your teeth son. :applause:


Good point . Kobe was as good as prime 2001 Shaq.

And Colby Karl, Pau Gasol>Prime Beans. Stats never lie.


What does that have to do with Jordan and Lebron's cakewalks to the Finals?

They were the best players on their respective teams while walking the cake (barring maybe Bron in 2011).

[kennethgriffin]

How about posting full stat lines? :confusedshrug:

Feel free to throw in advanced stats too since that's the reason for the season.



Except for when they don't agree with you... amirite?

Playoffs Ws/48 for 'Kobe's best seasons' (your favorite stat :cheers: )

2002
Shaq .236
Horry .153
Bean .148

2004
Shaq .202
Bean .145

2001
Shaq .260
Bean .260

2008
Colby Karl .214
Bean .178

2009
Bean .238
Pau .221

2010
Pau .224
Bean .190

2000
Shaq .224
Bean .115

The best player only once... Beans :bowdown:



this is you trying to make people believe in analytics


youre failing miserably

[Magic 32]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PBk1O0Ce3Y&t=8m11s

Bringing the truth to Grantland's massive audience!!!

8,11m - 16,27m

Yes!

[DonDadda59]

this is you trying to make people believe in analytics


youre failing miserably

Failing like a Fox. :pimp:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

They were the best players on their respective teams while walking the cake (barring maybe Bron in 2011).

If you were mildly retarded instead of a full retard you could look at playoff win shares after subtracting out the win shares derived from the NBA Finals as an attempt to approximate an individual credit for reaching the Finals. To use win shares per minute in this context obviously makes no sense.

But you are welcome to try it if it makes you feel better about Jordan facing weak competition en route to the Finals. :confusedshrug:

[DonDadda59]

If you were mildly retarded instead of a full retard you could look at playoff win shares after subtracting out the win shares derived from the NBA Finals as an attempt to approximate an individual credit for reaching the Finals. To use win shares per minute in this context obviously makes no sense.

But you are welcome to try it if it makes you feel better about Jordan facing weak competition en route to the Finals. :confusedshrug:

Right on bruh. Right on. All that good shit.

Shaq Diesel, Pau GaGoat, Lord Horry of the 7 rings of power, Colby 'Cheese' Karl>Bean. Stats don't lie.:cheers:

[TheMarkMadsen]

don dadda has been getting beat down in so many threads lately

:roll: :roll:

[DonDadda59]

don dadda has been getting beat down in so many threads lately

:roll: :roll:

LOL. Blind leading the blind.

Got Yao's left nut contradicting himself and trying to make his own new advanced stats in here :lol . But believe what you want, kid.

[Bankaii]

LOL. Blind leading the blind.

Got Yao's left nut contradicting himself and trying to make his own new advanced stats in here :lol . But believe what you want, kid.
There's no point in trying man. Stats are only valid when it works in their favor.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

LOL. Blind leading the blind.

Got Yao's left nut contradicting himself and trying to make his own new advanced stats in here :lol . But believe what you want, kid.

:biggums:

Link? You are rambling and have me confused me with someone else.

Do our resident Jordan mythologists prefer another rating system to determine team strength than ELO?

[Droid101]

Beansie has the most wins against 50+ win teams in NBA History... even though for most of them, he wasn't even the best player on his own team.

Well, you just lost all credibility forever. good work

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Duncan once again proven the GOAT by stats :applause:

Just like the 50 win thread where Duncan had 21 and Jordan had 20. :bowdown:

GOAT gonna GOAT. :banana:

[3ball]

Solid start but you don't get props for losing to good teams. Show only the teams they actually beat and now you have something worth looking at.
The competition both guys played is about equal, but the main point imo is that both played VASTLY superior competition to Lebron.. That's all that really matters because people are still in that in the same place with LeBron as they were with Kobe in 2008, asking whether he's as good as MJ..

Whereas at this point, everyone already knows MJ > Kobe, although it's still fun to debate because Kobe was so good, that it makes it more fun beating him down.

[plowking]

Do all Kobe fans believe that saying, "OMG getting owned in this thread" and inserting a bunch of rolling emoticons is them winning the argument? :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The competition both guys played is about equal, but the main point imo is that both played VASTLY superior competition to Lebron.. That's all that really matters because people are still in that in the same place with LeBron as they were with Kobe in 2008, asking whether he's as good as MJ..

Whereas at this point, everyone already knows MJ > Kobe, although it's still fun to debate because Kobe was so good, that it makes it more fun beating him down.

:wtf:

Does this look equal to you?

Kobe 02 1663
Kobe 04 1658
Kobe 01 1656
Kobe 08 1646
Kobe 09 1632
LeBron 11 1630
Kobe 10 1629
Kobe 00 1624
Jordan 93 1615
Jordan 97 1611
Jordan 98 1597
Jordan 96 1585
LeBron 12 1583
LeBron 15 1581
Lebron 07 1562
Jordan 92 1562
LeBron 14 1553
LeBron 13 1549
Jordan 91 1538

Average Kobe playoff Finals run= 1644
Average LeBron playoff Finals run= 1576
Average Jordan playoff Finals run= 1585

Jordan faced slightly better teams en route to the Finals than LeBron but both faced much weaker teams compared to Kobe.

The takeaway is the weakest path Kobe had to the Finals was tougher than all but 1 off Lebron and Jordan's path's to the Finals. :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

:wtf:

Does this look equal to you?

Kobe 02 1663
Kobe 04 1658
Kobe 01 1656
Kobe 08 1646
Kobe 09 1632
LeBron 11 1630
Kobe 10 1629
Kobe 00 1624
Jordan 93 1615
Jordan 97 1611
Jordan 98 1597
Jordan 96 1585
LeBron 12 1583
LeBron 15 1581
Lebron 07 1562
Jordan 92 1562
LeBron 14 1553
LeBron 13 1549
Jordan 91 1538

Average Kobe playoff Finals run= 1644
Average LeBron playoff Finals run= 1576
Average Jordan playoff Finals run= 1585

Jordan faced slightly better teams en route to the Finals than LeBron but both faced much weaker teams compared to Kobe.

The takeaway is the weakest path Kobe had to the Finals was tougher than all but 1 off Lebron and Jordan's path's to the Finals. :confusedshrug:
For starters, your list includes years where Kobe and Lebron LOST (bolded above), while you only included the 6 seasons MJ won.. That's a bad, erroneous analysis because Kobe and Lebron LOST to those defenses, while MJ beat all of his - so either make a list that only includes the years these guys won, or use the OP's list that shows everything - wins and losses.

Btw, MJ defeated 20 playoff teams that won 50+ regular season games, compared to only 7 for Lebron... 7.... Yes, only 7... compared to 20... MJ faced FAR better competition than Lebron.. The OP's all-inclusive Elo ratings show this and your list would too if you removed the years Lebron lost.

As for Kobe from 2000-2002 - I mean, c'mon - you're too soft on him - he only averaged 20 PPG the entire 2000 season, and 15 PPG on 35% in the Finals.. So I would remove 2000 entirely from the analysis for Kobe - he was CLEARLY the 2nd option by FAR - whereas MJ was always only the first option.
.

[chazzy]

Do all Kobe fans believe that saying, "OMG getting owned in this thread" and inserting a bunch of rolling emoticons is them winning the argument? :oldlol:
Do you believe being a contrarian/hipster on every topic makes you feel important?

[Beastmode88]

No bran stans to come to his defense? :lol

[sdot_thadon]

Interesting, anyone know why finals opponents aren't included?

[pauk]

So basically Kobe (GOAT) > Duncan > Jordan > Lebron.

This is a very objective, logical & reasonable way to try boost a lesser talent over better talents.... im impressed...

[dh144498]

you know you are losing an argument when you bring in WS/48.

:oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Interesting, anyone know why finals opponents aren't included?

It's comparing paths to the Finals rather than championship runs. :confusedshrug:

[Jacks3]

Look how he and others were doing vs 3 SRS or higher teams:


SERIES/ % OF ALL SERIES/ WINS/ W%/ PLAYER
15 / 0,469 / 8 / 0,533 / LeBron James
25 / 0,676 / 18 / 0,720 / Michael Jordan
37 / 0,860 / 27 / 0,730 / Kobe Bryant
16 / 0,889 / 11 / 0,688 / KB w/o Shaq
18 / 0,450 / 13 / 0,722 / Magic
27 / 0,587 / 17 / 0,630 / Tim Duncan
17 / 0,531 / 9 / 0,529 / Larry Bird
18 / 0,621 / 10/ 0,556 / Hakeem Olajuwon
23 / 0,885 / 11/ 0,478 / Dirk Nowitzki



So LeBron has played just 47% of his series vs 3+ SRS teams. Only Magic has comparable weak competition. James also has won just 53% of such series, so not even close to what MJ, Magic or Shaq and KB w/o Shaq did.

Honestly, Kobe probably played better comp over his playoff career than anybody.


*No this does not mean Bryant was a better player than some of those guys or even close, but it a point in his favor*

[OldSchoolBBall]

:wtf:

Does this look equal to you?

Kobe 02 1663
Kobe 04 1658
Kobe 01 1656
Kobe 08 1646
Kobe 09 1632
LeBron 11 1630
Kobe 10 1629
Kobe 00 1624
Jordan 93 1615
Jordan 97 1611
Jordan 98 1597
Jordan 96 1585
LeBron 12 1583
LeBron 15 1581
Lebron 07 1562
Jordan 92 1562
LeBron 14 1553
LeBron 13 1549
Jordan 91 1538

Average Kobe playoff Finals run= 1644
Average LeBron playoff Finals run= 1576
Average Jordan playoff Finals run= 1585

Jordan faced slightly better teams en route to the Finals than LeBron but both faced much weaker teams compared to Kobe.

The takeaway is the weakest path Kobe had to the Finals was tougher than all but 1 off Lebron and Jordan's path's to the Finals. :confusedshrug:

You can't really use any of the Shaq years in Kobe's favor since, well, he had Shaq.

[DonDadda59]

you know you are losing an argument when you bring in WS/48.

:oldlol:

Stats don't lie. :no:


You can't really use any of the Shaq years in Kobe's favor since, well, he had Shaq.

It's bizarre- it's like all the Bean stans got together recently and decided they were going to make believe Shaq never existed and that the rest of us would forget. :confusedshrug:

[dh144498]

Stats don't lie. :no:


"there are 3 types of lies: good lies, bad lies, and stats." -wise people

[DonDadda59]

"there are 3 types of lies: good lies, bad lies, and stats." -wise people

"F*ck what you talkin bout. F*ck what you heard" -Trick Daddy (I think :confusedshrug: )

[Im Still Ballin]

Idiots completely disregarding the illegal defense rules of pre 2001 basketball...

...

But it was the physical 90's, lockdown defense, best era of all time... Right?

Lol

( ͡

[dh144498]

http://i.imgur.com/8usmo31.gif

[DonDadda59]

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin]Idiots completely disregarding the illegal defense rules of pre 2001 basketball...

...

But it was the physical 90's, lockdown defense, best era of all time... Right?

Lol

( ͡

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You can't really use any of the Shaq years in Kobe's favor since, well, he had Shaq.

I'll go ahead and let Jordan and Lebron keep their playoff runs with multiple HOF teammates and we are left with...

Average Kobe playoff Finals run (08-10) =1636
Average Jordan playoff Finals run= 1585
Average LeBron playoff Finals run= 1576

:confusedshrug:

[sdot_thadon]

It's comparing paths to the Finals rather than championship runs. :confusedshrug:
I'm sure there's more to it than that, I'll poke around through the numbers and let you know why.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'm sure there's more to it than that, I'll poke around through the numbers and let you know why.

You do that Columbo

[Nash]

Shaq 02 1663
Shaq 04 1658
Shaq 01 1656
Kobe 08 1646
Kobe 09 1632
LeBron 11 1630
Kobe 10 1629
Shaq 00 1624
Jordan 93 1615
Jordan 97 1611
Jordan 98 1597
Jordan 96 1585
LeBron 12 1583
LeBron 15 1581
Lebron 07 1562
Jordan 92 1562
LeBron 14 1553
LeBron 13 1549
Jordan 91 1538

Stats don't lie :confusedshrug:
fixed it for you

[sdot_thadon]

Ok, so after i got a chance to check out the numbers myself i noticed a few things. (according to this metric)

1)The data presented was nice to gauge the competition on the way to the finals, it was not a complete picture. I mean why omit the most important round? Finals likely wasnt included because it kinda contradicts the point of the op.

2)For all of the talk about weak paths to the finals and win ratios once there, Lebron actually had the toughest opponents overall once he got there.

Lbj
07 spurs 1716
11 mavs 1705
12 thunder 1713
13 spurs 1717
14 spurs 1742
15 warriors 1785

career average: 1729.66

Mj
91 lakers 1676
92 blazers 1686
93 suns 1677
96 sonics 1707
97 jazz 1735
98 jazz 1733

career average: 1702.33

Kobe
00 pacers 1651
01 sixers 1615
02 nets 1579
04 pistons 1684
08 celtics 1710
09 magic 1687
10 celtics 1659

career average: 1655 (1685.33 without Shaq)

3)Kobe/Shaq lakers faced the weakest opponents.

4)While there may not appear to be a huge difference between Lebron and Mj the wrinkle is the differential between their teams and the opponent they faced in those finals.

Average Elo rating differential:
Mj: +68.16
Kobe: +60.57 (+38 without shaq)
Lbj: -47.16

That's a 115.32 average differential in opponent quality! More than the difference between the 07 cavs and spurs.:eek:

5)Mj never entered the finals with the lesser team.

6) Kobe only faced the pistons in 04 as the lesser team.

7) Lebron only entered the finals in 2013 with the better team, with close but still lesser squads in 2012 and 2011.

So, as with most metrics depending on how much you use you can come to different conclusions. Maybe later I'll do finals runs with the championship round included and see if it changes the overall picture much.