08-10 Kobe and 96-98 Jordan's PO scoring & effeciency

[TheMarkMadsen]

96 Jordan: 31ppg on 56% TS

97 Jordan: 31 ppg on 52% TS

98 Jordan: 32 ppg on 55% TS




08 Kobe: 30ppg on 58% TS

09 Kobe: 30ppg on 56% TS

10 Kobe: 29ppg on 57% TS


but they aren't comparable :roll: :roll:


Kobe also averaged more rebounds and assist during this period..

Jordan in 98 averaged 3.5 assist per game in the playoffs... his highest during this stretch was 5..

Meanwhile Kobe averaged 6 every year


:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

they were clearly comparable during these stretches

[navy]

You've already posted this same exact thread...

[dubeta]

dead man Jordan vs. Peak Kobe :oldlol:





Bran >> both of them btw

[HOoopCityJones]

Dead man Jordan?

On his second three peat. Pft.

[DonDadda59]

So the only way you can compare Beans and the GOAT is if you make it prime Beansie vs 33-35 year old MJ. Duly noted.

How about comparing 33-35 year old MJ with 33-35 year old Bean?

[Young X]

If you narrow it down to raw playoff stats, I guess. Overall, MJ's regular seasons were clearly better, he won more MVP's, FMVP's, played better defense, and had more memorable playoff games/moments. Jordan's '96 season alone > any Kobe season.

[Magic 32]

I always thought 08-10 Kobe filled in the blanks on how Jordan would have looked in 1994 and 1995.

1991-93 Jordan was the greatest ever, but 1996-98 was not that monolithic.

[SouBeachTalents]

If you narrow it down to raw playoff stats, I guess. Overall, MJ's regular seasons were clearly better, he won more MVP's, FMVP's, played better defense, and had more memorable playoff games/moments. Jordan's '96 season alone > any Kobe season.

You could make that argument for any of Jordan's championship seasons

[DonDadda59]

I always thought 08-10 Kobe filled in the blanks on how Jordan would have looked in 1994 and 1995.

1991-93 Jordan was the greatest ever, but 1996-98 was not that monolithic.

Obviously he was past prime, but the dude had some of the most legendary runs of any player ever. Name a guy who had more clutch/iconic moments than Jordan in the '97 Finals alone (1 buzzer beater, the flu game w/ game winner, etc).

And that's not even counting the regular season where he led the team to 72, 69 wins, won MVPs, scoring titles, etc.

[Magic 32]

Obviously he was past prime, but the dude had some of the most legendary runs of any player ever. Name a guy who had more clutch/iconic moments than Jordan in the '97 Finals alone (1 buzzer beater, the flu game w/ game winner, etc).

And that's not even counting the regular season where he led the team to 72, 69 wins, won MVPs, scoring titles, etc.

I think the NBA was pretty weak from 1996 to 2003.

And Jordan had a superteam.

I'm not really saying anything bad about Jordan. He was still great.

[DonDadda59]

I think the NBA was pretty weak from 1996 to 2003.

NBA was great until the lockout. Then the And 1 era came along (post 2001ish) and the overall quality of basketball took a nose dive for a few years.


And Jordan had a superteam.

Shaq's Magic, Seattle>Bulls in terms of talent. And Utah was clowning super teams in the West en route to meeting the Bulls (Beat the Hakeem-Barkley-Drexler Rockets, Shaq's Lakers when they had 4 legit all stars, and the Duncan-Robinson Spurs in '98 alone).

[SilkkTheShocker]

To be fair to Jordan, he was the best player on all his Finals teams. Kobe only two of the three. Gasol was better in 2010. I forgot Kobe even played in that Game 7 until you heard those loud ass bricks clang off the rim

[Magic 32]

To be fair to Jordan, he was the best player on all his Finals teams. Kobe only two of the three. Gasol was better in 2010. I forgot Kobe even played in that Game 7 until you heard those loud ass bricks clang off the rim

Still weak.

Kobe was better in game 1, game 3, game 4, game 5, and game 6.

[kennethgriffin]

To be fair to Jordan, he was the best player on all his Finals teams. Kobe only two of the three. Gasol was better in 2010. I forgot Kobe even played in that Game 7 until you heard those loud ass bricks clang off the rim


analytic winshares or whatever cant compete with

29/8/4 over 7 games

kobe averaged 27/10/4 in the 4 wins




and if winshares are the end all be all... kobe = 2001 playoff mvp ( but i thought shaq was infinitely more valuable? )

[Magic 32]

NBA was great until the lockout.

I disagree.

The west had some young but undisciplined talent. The good teams were old and unremarkable after 1995 (Jazz, Rockets).

The east was done after the Magic broke up.

[dubeta]

analytic winshares or whatever cant compete with

29/8/4 over 7 games

kobe averaged 27/10/4 in the 4 wins




and if winshares are the end all be all... kobe = 2001 playoff mvp ( but i thought shaq was infinitely more valuable? )

Ok, lets give Kobe 2001

That still makes him winshare leader only 1/5 times :oldlol:

[SilkkTheShocker]

Kobe fans getting legit upset right now. :eek:

[tmacattack33]

96 Jordan: 31ppg on 56% TS

97 Jordan: 31 ppg on 52% TS

98 Jordan: 32 ppg on 55% TS




08 Kobe: 30ppg on 58% TS

09 Kobe: 30ppg on 56% TS

10 Kobe: 29ppg on 57% TS


but they aren't comparable :roll: :roll:


Kobe also averaged more rebounds and assist during this period..

Jordan in 98 averaged 3.5 assist per game in the playoffs... his highest during this stretch was 5..

Meanwhile Kobe averaged 6 every year


:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

they were clearly comparable during these stretches

Yeah...but...MJ's play in his 3 Finals completely sh*ts on Kobe's.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Ok, lets give Kobe 2001

That still makes him winshare leader only 1/5 times :oldlol:

Don't do him like that. Gah damn :oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

I disagree.

The west had some young but undisciplined talent.

The undisciplined Lakers in '98 had 4 all stars (Shaq, Kobe, Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel) and won 61 games. The Spurs were anything but undisciplined and they had maybe the most dominant front court/twin tower combination the league has ever seen with a veteran Robinson and emerging Duncan.



The good teams were old and unremarkable after 1995 (Jazz, Rockets).

How the hell were the Jazz 'unremarkable' winning 62-64 and destroying the caliber of players/teams they did before running into the GOAT? :oldlol:

The Spurs last year were old as dirt and look what they did to LeBron and the super friends. They chased that f*cker out of Miami. :lol


The east was done after Shaq left.

That definitely precipitated the power shift to the West that still lingers today... but that just made the West that much better during the Jazz's run. And MJ and the Bulls gave Shaq with a much better squad (the Bulls 2nd/3rd option was the Magic's 5th) a nice sweep as a parting gift in '96.

[Droid101]

Ok, lets give Kobe 2001

That still makes him winshare leader only 1/5 times :oldlol:
Er, no, 2009 and 2001 if you go by Playoff win share alone.

However, that's a stupid stat.

Eye test shows Kobe as a 1a/1b player with Shaq in both 2001 and 2002 playoffs, and primary option in all the Pau years.

[dubeta]

Im a big time Kobe fan, trust me, I watched his entire career, but you Kobe trolls just don't know where to stop.

No Kobe wasnt even close to being the best during the Shaq days

And from 08-10 Gasols defense, scoring, and rebounding were just as valuable if not moreso than whatever Kobe did (or didnt do - see Game 7)

Absolute best case scenario, Kobe was 1a to Gasols 1b during 08-10, with Gasol being 1a during the 2010 playoffs

[Magic 32]

The undisciplined Lakers in '98 had 4 all stars (Shaq, Kobe, Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel) and won 61 games.

The Hawks had 4 all-stars and won 60+ games this year. Kobe, Nick and Eddie were nothing special in those years. Flash without substance.

The Lakers were still not close to a championship team. All over the place and terrible coaching. All you have to do is watch the series against the Jazz and Spurs.




The Spurs were anything but undisciplined and they had maybe the most dominant front court/twin tower combination the league has ever seen with a veteran Robinson and emerging Duncan.


Yes, one of the 3 great teams of that era (Bulls 96-98, Spurs 99-03 and Lakers 99-02), but they were only healthy and in their prime in 1999, 2001 and 2003. And they never mixed with Jordan's or Malone's runs.




How the hell were the Jazz 'unremarkable' winning 62-64 and destroying the caliber of players/teams they did before running into the GOAT? :oldlol:


So two stars who are both +35 years old makes it to the finals back-to-back. It tells us nothing about the era?

And comparing them to the deep and talented Spurs team from 2014 is silly.

There was no Kawhi Leonard or 31 year old Tony Parker on those Jazz teams.

[Droid101]

No Kobe wasnt even close to being the best during the Shaq days


"Sidekick"

http://i51.tinypic.com/2mq3v5i.jpg

Shaq "carried Kobe"

http://cdn.niketalk.com/1/1a/400x400px-LL-1a7081a1_rtMHG2O1.jpeg

[DonDadda59]

The Hawks had 4 all-stars and won 60+ games this year. Kobe, Nick and Eddie were nothing special in those years. Flash without substance.

Which is a sign of how ridiculously weak this era is, especially the Leastern Conference.

If you want to compare Al Horford to Shaq... be my guest.

But seriously, No (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JNNDskWNGg)


The Lakers were still not close to a championship team. All over the place and terrible coaching. All you have to do is watch the series against the Jazz and Spurs.

So all I have to do is watch them play against great teams? OK.



Yes, one of the 3 great teams of that era (Bulls 96-98, Spurs 99-03 and Lakers 99-02), but they were only healthy and in their prime in 1999, 2001 and 2003. And they never mixed with Jordan's or Malone's runs.

How were they healthy and in prime in '99, but not '98 against the Jazz? :wtf:


So two stars who are both +35 years old and makes it to the finals back-to-back tells us nothing about the era?

Spurs.


Comparing them to the deep and talented Spurs from 2014 is silly.

:oldlol:

'97, '98 Malone, Stockton>>>>>'13,'14 Duncan, Parker. And SA's squad was made up of former D-Leaguers (Green, Mills) and waaaaay past prime players like Manu and Boris.


There was no Kawhi Leonard or 31 year old Tony Parker on those Jazz teams.

Stockton>Parker. Kawhi was putting up the same production as Jeff Hornacek. The Spurs' best player during the run was the ghost of Tim Duncan. Now compare Timmy to Malone during those stretches. Not even in the same zip code.

[Magic 32]

Kawhi was putting up the same production as Jeff Hornacek.

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/3204840swsw.gif

[ShawkFactory]

So the only way you can compare Beans and the GOAT is if you make it prime Beansie vs 33-35 year old MJ. Duly noted.

How about comparing 33-35 year old MJ with 33-35 year old Bean?
Ouch.

Yea Kobes ain't comparable. Well...he's "comparable", but only if you value semantics.

[DonDadda59]

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/3204840swsw.gif

Hornacek '97-'98: 14.4 PPG/3.2 RPG/4.4 APG

Leonard '13-'14: 12.4 PPG/6.2 RPG/ 2 APG

:confusedshrug:

Maybe when (if) Kawhi finally lives up to all the hype surrounding him, he'll be a 20/5/5 player like Horny was in his prime. :applause:

[Droid101]

Hornacek '97-'98: 14.4 PPG/3.2 RPG/4.4 APG

Leonard '13-'14: 12.4 PPG/6.2 RPG/ 2 APG

:confusedshrug:

Maybe when (if) Kawhi finally lives up to all the hype surrounding him, he'll be a 20/5/5 player like Horny was in his prime. :applause:
"Oh, hell no."
https://nickintheknow.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/hornacek.jpg

[Magic 32]

Hornacek '97-'98: 14.4 PPG/3.2 RPG/4.4 APG

Leonard '13-'14: 12.4 PPG/6.2 RPG/ 2 APG

:confusedshrug:

Maybe when (if) Kawhi finally lives up to all the hype surrounding him, he'll be a 20/5/5 player like Horny was in his prime. :applause:

http://s28.postimg.org/vy0jjrfj1/image.png

http://s29.postimg.org/j6kxxbhqf/dfsad.png

And let's not talk about the defense.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Superficially, yes ... prime Kobe of:

2008 - 29 years old
2009 - 30 years old
2010 - 31 years old

is comparable to past prime Jordan of:

1996 - 33 years old
1997 - 34 years old
1998 - 35 years old

Now ...

'08 - '10 Kobe had more OFFENSIVE help. '96 - '98 Jordan had more DEFENSIVE help.

'08 - '10 Kobe played in a more uptempo, free flowing culture of basketball in that era, and even more so in the run-n-gun Western Conference.

'96 - '98 Jordan played in a more grind it out, offensively depressed era of basketball, and even more so in the gritty Eastern Conference.

Contextually it's similar to how the raw offensive production of 2011 MVP Derrick Rose are the same as 2015 MVP Steph Curry. But Rose put up a higher percentage of his team's offensive production, in a more difficult scoring climate, with less help offensively in a conference more known for defense as opposed to run and gun offense the way the Western Conference has always been known for ... thus doing more with less.

Jordan was the better team leader, comparable playoff performer (albeit more iconic) and better regular season performer. Thus the 2x MVPs, 3x Rings, and 3x Finals MVPs v.s. MVP, 2x Rings, and 2x Finals MVPs.

So yes, prime Kobe is comparable to past prime Jordan. And even so, Jordan was better, more successful and more memorable.

[Magic 32]

So yes, prime Kobe is comparable to past prime Jordan. And even so, Jordan was better, more successful and more memorable.

Kobe in 2009-2010 was kind of past his prime as well. He took as much of those seasons off as he could.

And in 2008 Kobe was plenty memorable and dominant.

Those 3 years came straight after 2 years of shooting 27 shots per game trying to carry a scub team into the playoffs.

Jordan came of missing home runs.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Utah was clowning super teams in the West en route to meeting the Bulls (Beat the Hakeem-Barkley-Drexler Rockets, Shaq's Lakers when they had 4 legit all stars, and the Duncan-Robinson Spurs in '98 alone).

Old/past prime, Atlanta Hawks level all-stars, rookie/coming off injury.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[DonDadda59]

Old/past prime

All all star level talent still (as well as the underrated Kevin Willis). Just suffered some serious injury issues during the season. In the playoffs they gave Utah the biggest challenge in the West.

The previous season, with a healthy Hakeem, they won 57 and made the WCF.


Atlanta Hawks level all-stars

Yup, Al Horford is basically Shaq. :applause:


rookie/coming off injury.

They won the championship the next (lockout) season. Both 21/11/3/3 players. Timmy finished 5th in MVP voting as a rookie. As NBA ready a rookie as the league has ever seen. Champion, Finals MVP in just his second (again, lockout) season.


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

:D

[Mr Feeny]

Kobe in 2009-2010 was kind of past his prime as well. He took as much of those seasons off as he could.

And in 2008 Kobe was plenty memorable and dominant.

Those 3 years came straight after 2 years of shooting 27 shots per game trying to carry a scub team into the playoffs.

Jordan came of missing home runs.

1- 29 years old is not past your prime. Jordan was averaging 41 ppg in the FINALS at 29.
2-Choking on home court in game 4 and allowing the largest comeback in finals history by Boston while you are outshines by Pierce is memorable. You're correct!
So is that 7-22 shooting performance in the elimination game 6 where he just gave up and was outplayed by a kid Rondo as the Lakers suffered the the second largest loss in the history of the sport on that stage. Against Boston, no less.

His 43%fg shooting percentage against the same Magic team in 09 that LeBron averaged 38 , 8.5 , 8.5 on 48%fg is relatively weak. Some would call it embarrassing.

2010. 6/24 when it matters. Enough said.

[Magic 32]

Yup, Al Horford is basically Shaq. :applause:


A 19 year old Kobe, Nick and Eddie are pretty weak all-stars.

It was an unorganized one man show really. And with a very young superstar.

[Magic 32]

1- 29 years old is not past your prime. Jordan was averaging 41 ppg in the FINALS at 29.


Kobe was 30. And he had played 13 seasons.




2-Choking on home court in game 4 and allowing the largest comeback in finals history by Boston while you are outshines by Pierce is memorable. You're correct!


You can dismiss his MVP season and playoff run all you want, but what Kobe did in 2008 with a on-the-fly essempled 1-2 punch was pretty amazing.





His 43%fg shooting percentage against the same Magic team in 09 that LeBron averaged 38 , 8.5 , 8.5 on 48%fg is relatively weak. Some would call it embarrassing.


So you think this playoff run by lebron has been embarrassing?

[Mr Feeny]

Kobe was 30. And he had played 13 seasons.



You can dismiss his MVP season and playoff run all you want, but what Kobe did in 2008 with a on-the-fly essempled 1-2 punch was pretty amazing.




So you think this playoff run by lebron has been embarrassing?

Like I said:

2008: -receiving end of largest comeback in finals hsitory , at home
-2nd largest loss in the history of basketball at that stage.
2009: 31 ppg on 43%fg vs the 38ppg, 8.5 apg, 8.5 rpg on 48%fg. LeBron put up against the same opponent.
2010: 6/24 when it really matters (40%fg overall)

[Magic 32]

2008: -receiving end of largest comeback in finals hsitory , at home
-2nd largest loss in the history of basketball at that stage.


Yes, he ran out of gas in the last 3 games of the season (against an amazing team). Still one of the best all-around season in NBA history.

You give him Pau from the beginning of the season, and baseball in the previous two?....look out.



2009: 31 ppg on 43%fg vs the 38ppg, 8.5 apg, 8.5 rpg on 48%fg. LeBron put up against the same opponent.

lebron also played insane iso basketball that inflated his stats and doomed the Cavs in the end.

7 turnover in the 4th and OT of game 4. Awful.

Give me two more missed shots per game instead.

Kobe shooting 43% at 30, Lebron is shooting 42,8%



2010: 6/24 when it really matters (40%fg overall)

41%. And im pretty sure his 10 points in the 4th mattered to the Celtics.

And when it really mattered, Lebron has prenty of awful shooting games (when he decided to go down swinging instead of quitting).

[Mr Feeny]

:blah

Like I said:

-2008: Biggest choke job in finals history. On receiving end of largest comeback in finals hsitory , at home*
-2nd largest loss in the history of basketball at that stage.
2009: 31 ppg on 43%fg vs the 38ppg, 8.5 apg, 8.5 rpg on 48%fg. LeBron put up against the SAME OPPONENT.
2010: 6/24 when it really matters (40%fg overall) /LeBron is a 30 ppg 48%fg scorer in game 7's.

[NBASTATMAN]

To be fair to Jordan, he was the best player on all his Finals teams. Kobe only two of the three. Gasol was better in 2010. I forgot Kobe even played in that Game 7 until you heard those loud ass bricks clang off the rim


AGREEEEEEE:cheers:

[NBASTATMAN]

1- 29 years old is not past your prime. Jordan was averaging 41 ppg in the FINALS at 29.
2-Choking on home court in game 4 and allowing the largest comeback in finals history by Boston while you are outshines by Pierce is memorable. You're correct!
So is that 7-22 shooting performance in the elimination game 6 where he just gave up and was outplayed by a kid Rondo as the Lakers suffered the the second largest loss in the history of the sport on that stage. Against Boston, no less.

His 43%fg shooting percentage against the same Magic team in 09 that LeBron averaged 38 , 8.5 , 8.5 on 48%fg is relatively weak. Some would call it embarrassing.

2010. 6/24 when it matters. Enough said.


CHILL MAN... ETHER

[NBASTATMAN]

"Sidekick"

http://i51.tinypic.com/2mq3v5i.jpg

Shaq "carried Kobe"

http://cdn.niketalk.com/1/1a/400x400px-LL-1a7081a1_rtMHG2O1.jpeg



I think most would admit that 2001 Kobe was the highest level of bball he ever reached... He was great and was just as good as Shaq up until the FINALS....... Shaq was the better player in that series and he went against Mutombo.. Kobe went against MCKIE who played with a broken ankle..