Why 06-10 is Kobe's era

[SexSymbol]

Alright, in this thread I am going to explain to these noobs why 06-10 was clearly Kobe's era.

06 - historic season, scored 50+ points six times, 40-49 21 times, 30-39 29 times. One of the most dominating individual seasons ever, 35.4 ppg average. We go crazy over a guy scoring 50 points these days, Kobe hit 81, second highest scoring game ever. Outscored the whole mavs team alone through 3 quarters. Did well in the playoffs, hit iconic game winners, took a great suns team to 7 and only lost because of overconfidence in Phil.
Other guys having an argument were Wade, who was dragged to a win in the finals by the refs and Dirk, who underperformed on the biggest stage.

07 - another historic season, overlooked by many. 10 50+ points games in one season, 8 40-49 games with 20 30-39 games. Had a stretch of 65-50-60-50-43-23-53 games in a row. Only debatable year out of the bunch, yet he still dominated individually. One can only imagine what he would've done with at least two serviceable players on Lakers line-up alongside him.
Other arguable players were Dirk, who had one of the worst collapses and chokes of all time, and Duncan, who averaged 22 points in the playoffs on a team that didn't really need him to win (14 and 12 point performances in G3 and G3 on 6-17 and 4-15 shooting) and lost fMVP to a french midget guy.

08 - best mix of individual domination and great leadership shown in a long time, best perimeter defender in the game, one of the greater rebounding seasons for a guard. Sat Lakers atop the western conference even before acquiring Pau. Dominated in the western conference playoffs, demolished a great spurs team and then lost in the finals to a colluding team and the refs (boo hoo i was homeless for a bit, give me 15 FTA in a game refs). Closest guy was Chris Paul, and there's really no argument for him.

09 - still a great defender, had a 27-5-5 regular season while only playing 36 mpg. Great post season run, unmatched by any player in the league, where he closed out Jazz with b2b 38-31 point games. Averaged 27 in the gruelling second round series against one of the best 1x1 defenders of all time in Ron Artest and the defensive-minded yet shorthanded Rockets team. Averaged 34 points in the WCF against a great Denver team in Anthony's best season. Closed them out with a 35-10-6 game on 60% shooting. Dominated in the finals with a 32-7-6 performances while having a focked up finger.
Other players that could be argued as best were LeBron, who failed miserably and underperformed in G6 of ORL series, the same team that Kobe won against and dominated all series throughout. And Wade, who has the best case against Kobe, but it wasn't a historic enough season individually to be put above a winning season by Kobe.

10 - last season as a great defender (at least in the playoffs), still averaged 27-5-5 in the regular season in one of the most clutch seasons of all time, 6 game winners. Played a subpar series against OKC, yet closed them out on 32-7-6 performance, averaged 32 against Jazz in a sweep. Averaged 34 points against a great Suns team which had a roided out sense of urgency, understanding it was the last real run for many of their players. Closed suns out on a peak-MJ like performance in the clutch. Was almost great in the finals, averaged 32 ppg until the ultra defensive minded G7 where all but two player on both teams shot below 50%. Still had a hand in almost every basket made in the 4th quarter in G7, grabbed 15 rebounds and scored 11 (if I remember correctly) points in the 4th. All while having a broken index finger and a seriously focked up knee. Beat 4 50 win teams en route to a championship and fMVP
Closest guy to being considered the best was Bron, who quit against the same Boston team.

[ImKobe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anoqbgOZrEg

just watch this video

[SexSymbol]

before retards try to argue bron in 09-10 remember that he himself stated, that Kobe was the best player in the league at that time

[ImKobe]

before retards try to argue bron in 09-10 remember that he himself stated, that Kobe was the best player in the league at that time

Lebron won MVP the same year he admitted that Kobe was a better player than him in 09. I believe Lakers won 65 games while Cavs won 66.

[Eric Cartman]

Well said :applause:

[Im Still Ballin]

Kobe's 2006-2008 is Lebron's 2008-2010

Kobe's 2008-2010 is Lebron's 2011-2013

[DMV2]

Too bad most people remember Kobe choking 3-1 lead against Phoenix.

[Lebowski]

... then lost in the finals to a colluding team and the refs


:facepalm

[rzp]

06, historic chucking season for KB :applause:

[dubeta]

So Kobe kept losing games and losing in the 1st round, Gasol comes and wins him 1-2 rings and that makes it Kobe's era?? :oldlol:

[Wade's Rings]

2006 Wade > 2006 Kobe

Oh Kobe shot 16 FTA per Game vs the Jazz so that Finals Appearance doesn't count. :durantunimpressed:

[RRR3]

OPs stannery for Kobe is underrated

[DMAVS41]

Meh...seems like semantics

Players better than Kobe each year...

06 - Wade, Duncan, Dirk

07 - Duncan...KG, Dirk, Lebron all as good or better

08 - Kobe was the best...KG, CP3, and Lebron very close

09 - Lebron...Wade just as good

10 - Lebron...Wade just as good



Also, the double standards are hilarious. Dirk can't be better than Kobe in 06 because of the finals?

And then in 10 Lebron is worse because he quit?

But Kobe quit in 06 and blew a 3-1 series lead while Dirk was beating the Spurs on the road with a 37/15 game 7.

See the double standard?

It's the same thing as saying this year is up for grabs between Curry and Lebron like many Kobe fans have said....yet they want to award Kobe best player in 06 and 07. That makes no sense.

[tpols]

Kobe was the best player hands down 06-08 ability wise.. and Bron took that title in 09 where he's pretty much had it since because lack of great top end talent.

When you're best comp is James Harden steph curry and injured durant you can't compare that to having to be better than peak shaq duncan garnett dirk etc..

if kobe took brons position and got to have his peak/prime facing Lebron's mvp and best player competition he'd be a lock for top player for a longer stretch as well. So even that is contextual

[ArbitraryWater]

Damn DMAVS you bumped it...

okay then I'll just do the better than Kobe year-for-year:

2006: Easy, Dirk/Wade, Duncan/Bron an argument
2007: Duncan/healthy Wade, in the regular season Dirk
2008: Argument for Bron/Paul, Kobe consensus though
2009: Bron/Wade.. Dirk/Paul?
2010: Bron/Wade/Dirk

[Cold soul]

06-10 like you said OP Kobe was the best player but I give 10 to Lebron still and in 09 both Wade and Lebron were in running as leagues best along with Kobe. Kobe was easily the best 06-08 for me.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

06-10 like you said OP Kobe was the best player but I give 10 to Lebron still and in 09 both Wade and Lebron were in running as leagues best along with Kobe.
Same for me.

I always thought Kobe was the best player, as far as completeness and overall skill goes, from 2006-2008.

2009 was more or less LeBron, but Wade and Kobe could have legit arguments made. 2010 was definitely LeBron followed by Kobe and then Wade IMO.

[TheMarkMadsen]

09 & 10 Lebron still had huge weakness in his game

inconsistent jumper

no post game

wasn't until 2012 where he really began to go to the post, and that's when he won the title, not a coincidence..

brans offense back then wasn't very versatile especially come playoff time

[dubeta]

09 & 10 Lebron still had huge weakness in his game

inconsistent jumper

no post game


Still better than Kobe though


A player like Jeff Teague has no weaknesses in his game, but you wouldn't call him the best PG in the league.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Still better than Kobe though


A player like Jeff Teague has no weaknesses in his game, but you wouldn't call him the best PG in the league.


:biggums: :biggums:

[ArbitraryWater]

09 & 10 Lebron still had huge weakness in his game

inconsistent jumper

no post game

wasn't until 2012 where he really began to go to the post, and that's when he won the title, not a coincidence..

brans offense back then wasn't very versatile especially come playoff time

Except he dominated at will in both playoff runs.. against great defenses :oldlol:

I guess being the most athletic force ever to be reckoned with (Bron in 2009/2010 pretty much the perfect basketball body) makes up for whatever lack of post game there was.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Except he dominated at will in both playoff runs.. against great defenses :oldlol:

I guess being the most athletic force ever to be reckoned with (Bron in 2009/2010 pretty much the perfect basketball body) makes up for whatever lack of post game there was.

:biggums: :biggums:

did you even watch that Celtics series

[stephanieg]

Nothing too surprising, though I chuckled at the idea of Kobe being the best perimeter defender in '08.

[dubeta]

Anyone care to post LeBron and Kobe's regular season and playoff stats between 2009-2010??

[Dave3]

That's a ton of typing for "Kobe was the best player in 2006-2008, LeBron was the best player from 2009-present"

2009 and 2010, Kobe was the best player on a championship team, not the best player in the league. Similar to Wade in 2006 or Duncan in 2007. Didn't make them better than Kobe then, like it didn't make Kobe better than LeBron in 2009 or 2010.

[TheMarkMadsen]

the Kobe hating criteria in this thread doesn't even make sense..

giving 06 to Wade and 07 to Duncan solely off that they won titles as the best player on the team.. (no knock on Duncan for not winning FMVP lol gotta love that hypocrisy)

yet in 09/10 Kobe puts up 30/6/6 on 57%TS on b2b FMVP's and isn't the best player in the league

ok..

[dubeta]

the Kobe hating criteria in this thread doesn't even make sense..

giving 06 to Wade and 07 to Duncan solely off that they won titles as the best player on the team.. (no knock on Duncan for not winning FMVP lol gotta love that hypocrisy)

yet in 09/10 Kobe puts up 30/6/6 on 57%TS on b2b FMVP's and isn't the best player in the league

ok..



Can you post LeBron and Kobe's regular season and playoff stats between 2008-2010??

[ArbitraryWater]

the Kobe hating criteria in this thread doesn't even make sense..

giving 06 to Wade and 07 to Duncan solely off that they won titles as the best player on the team.. (no knock on Duncan for not winning FMVP lol gotta love that hypocrisy)

yet in 09/10 Kobe puts up 30/6/6 on 57%TS on b2b FMVP's and isn't the best player in the league

ok..

:biggums:

[TheMarkMadsen]

:biggums:

so what makes Duncan better than Kobe in 07..

[Ne 1]

Can you post LeBron and Kobe's regular season and playoff stats between 2008-2010??

"Muh stats!" The expression indicates a LeBron stans confusion or lack of understanding when confronted with something he cannot understand or respond to, LeBron stans mumble "muh stats!" This is usually followed by pointing at metrics created by John Hollinger and other formulas and box scores without any context or understanding of the game to justify their opinions or reasoning.

[dubeta]

"Muh stats!" The expression indicates a LeBron stans confusion or lack of understanding when confronted with something he cannot understand or respond to, LeBron stans mumble "muh stats!" This is usually followed by pointing at metrics created by John Hollinger and other formulas and box scores without any context or understanding of the game to justify their opinions or reasoning.

Stats are the rat poison for Kobe stans, thanks for pointing out :applause:

[Ne 1]

so what makes Duncan better than Kobe in 07..

Kobe was the best player in the game in '07 IMO, not as clearly as he was in '06, since I don't think he was quite as good, though he was close. I suppose Duncan does have a case in hindsight, but I'm sticking with what I thought back then.

[Ne 1]

Stats are the rat poison for Kobe stans, thanks for pointing out :applause:

Unfortunately for you stat geeks, basketball isn't like baseball where stats tell the whole story.

[T_L_P]

so what makes Duncan better than Kobe in 07..

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2007.html

Duncan was #1 (by a wide margin) with a 10.2
Kobe was #11 with a 5.8

Kobe had better raw numbers in the Regular Season (41.3 to Duncan's 37.2), they had the exact same PER (26.1) and WS (13.0), which is kinda odd. Duncan had a higher WS/48 (.230 - .199), Box +/- (7.1 - 4.7), and Net Rating (+14.5 - +6.0)

It's the same story for the postseason. Kobe has slightly better raw numbers, Duncan beats him in all the other stats.

This isn't even accounting for the fact that 07 was Duncan's 3rd or 4th best defensive season (behind 03, 04 and possibly 05) and he is much better than Kobe on that end of the floor (I think people underrated Kobe when they say he only deserved like four or five All-D teams, but 06 and 07 were not some of his strongest years on that end).

I'm not saying it wasn't Kobe, but that's what Duncan's case is. He was by far the Spurs' best player that season and the fact that you Kobe fans act like Parker was even close to him (or, worse yet, say he was their best player) shows just how little you value anything other than scoring numbers.

[Dave3]

the Kobe hating criteria in this thread doesn't even make sense..

giving 06 to Wade and 07 to Duncan solely off that they won titles as the best player on the team.. (no knock on Duncan for not winning FMVP lol gotta love that hypocrisy)

yet in 09/10 Kobe puts up 30/6/6 on 57%TS on b2b FMVP's and isn't the best player in the league

ok..
I hope you're not making that inference from my post, because that's not what I said.

Secondly, you're using the exact same double standard. Kobe was the best player in 2006-08 because he was just the best player (ie. performed better even than the guys who won), and he was also the best player in 2009-2010 because he won the championship, even though there was a guy who performed better than him and didn't win.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe was the best player hands down 06-08 ability wise.. and Bron took that title in 09 where he's pretty much had it since because lack of great top end talent.

When you're best comp is James Harden steph curry and injured durant you can't compare that to having to be better than peak shaq duncan garnett dirk etc..

if kobe took brons position and got to have his peak/prime facing Lebron's mvp and best player competition he'd be a lock for top player for a longer stretch as well. So even that is contextual

Hands down he was better than Dirk, Duncan, and Wade during that time?

Just no.

And KG and Lebron certainly have things to say as well.

This is the problem with Kobe stans. You want to give him 06 and 07 even though the objective data doesn't say that...and he didn't do anything in the playoffs either.

Then you want to claim him advancing far in 08 through 10 somehow makes him better?

Just makes no sense and the fact that someone can claim Kobe was "hands down" better than everyone each year from 06 through 10 is a joke.

[kennethgriffin]

eras dont come and go on a year to year basis or stamped by a finals mvp

theyre whoever the face of the nba is and how that mans popularity/skills/career help propel it further


kobe realistically took over for jordan when he left

nobody/no media/nothing was talking about shaq during these games


1998 allstar game
both 1997/98 lakers bulls games

it was all about kobe bryant vs michael jordan

shaq was the more important player in the titles for first 3 runs. but it was kobes league


1999 to 2010 kobe was by far the face of the league/most popular/best individual talent that fans wanted to pay to see


duncan wasnt even the most popular guy in texas during this time. shaq was ridiculed by fans and media for being a fat lazy free throw clanking monkey





jordan to kobe to lebron ... those are the only guys who held the torch over the past 20+ years

[SouBeachTalents]

eras dont come and go on a year to year basis or stamped by a finals mvp

theyre whoever the face of the nba is and how that mans popularity/skills/career help propel it further


kobe realistically took over for jordan when he left

nobody/no media/nothing was talking about shaq during these games


1998 allstar game
both 1997/98 lakers bulls games

it was all about kobe bryant vs michael jordan

shaq was the more important player in the titles for first 3 runs. but it was kobes league


1999 to 2010 kobe was by far the face of the league/most popular/best individual talent that fans wanted to pay to see


duncan wasnt even the most popular guy in texas during this time. shaq was ridiculed by fans and media for being a fat lazy free throw clanking monkey





jordan to kobe to lebron ... those are the only guys who held the torch over the past 20+ years

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

[SexSymbol]

I really hate this revisionist history going on in this forum that there were people considered better than Kobe in 09 and 10. Arguable, for sure, but everyone, including bron and wade themselves said that Kobe was the best at that time. People, who he is being compared to admit themselves that they are not as good, and stans still try to post rapm or ws48 or whatever shit you watch you ball games with.
Hold these L's and man up. It's been LeBron's era 12-13, before he was overtaken as the best player by Durant. He can take it back this year if he wins the finals

[SexSymbol]

I hope you're not making that inference from my post, because that's not what I said.

Secondly, you're using the exact same double standard. Kobe was the best player in 2006-08 because he was just the best player (ie. performed better even than the guys who won), and he was also the best player in 2009-2010 because he won the championship, even though there was a guy who performed better than him and didn't win.
There wasn't.
In 09, Kobe dominated on the highest stage against a team that LeBron failed against and failed to produce in the deciding game and Wade didn't even reach ECF.
In 10, Kobe played much better against the same BOS team that Bron quit against.

[SouBeachTalents]

There wasn't.
In 09, Kobe dominated on the highest stage against a team that LeBron failed against and failed to produce in the deciding game and Wade didn't even reach ECF.
In 10, Kobe played much better against the same BOS team that Bron quit against.

vs. '09 Magic

LeBron: 39/8/8 on 48%
Kobe: 32/6/7 on 43%

vs. '10 Celtics

LeBron: 27/9/7 on 45%
Kobe: 29/8/4 on 41%

[Ne 1]

I really hate this revisionist history going on in this forum that there were people considered better than Kobe in 09 and 10. Arguable, for sure, but everyone, including bron and wade themselves said that Kobe was the best at that time.

2006-2008 he was clearly the best player in the game IMO, 2009 and 2010 however, although he had the better seasons, but he was not clearly superior to LeBron and Wade IMO.

2009 he was at least top 3 though. He has a case for top 2 behind LeBron, or even being the best player again, but I go with LeBron and Wade as the top 2, which isn't a knock on Kobe because he was at the tail end of his prime. 2010 he's at least #2 behind LeBron. Wade's laziness allowed Kobe to get back to top 2 comfortably, and Lebron's choke/quit job was enough for a lot of fans to have Kobe as the best again after winning a 5th ring, but I still give the slight edge to LeBron despite that.

[Dave3]

There wasn't.
In 09, Kobe dominated on the highest stage against a team that LeBron failed against and failed to produce in the deciding game and Wade didn't even reach ECF.
In 10, Kobe played much better against the same BOS team that Bron quit against.
I was talking about one player performing better than the other. I wasn't talking about one team performing better than another. If you're not able to distinguish between those two things, you shouldn't be trying to discuss these topics.

[ArbitraryWater]

vs. '09 Magic

LeBron: 39/8/8 on 48%
Kobe: 32/6/7 on 43%

vs. '10 Celtics

LeBron: 27/9/7 on 45%
Kobe: 29/8/4 on 41%

this is the thing... LeBron played better against the teams Kobe had trouble with.

The narrative he's pushing doesn't hold up with the truth.

[kennethgriffin]

this is the thing... LeBron played better against the teams Kobe had trouble with.

The narrative he's pushing doesn't hold up with the truth.



Anyone can hog/stat pad and lose in the playoffs


Lebrons best basketball was when he dialed it back... same for kobe

[Ne 1]

vs. '10 Celtics

LeBron: 27/9/7 on 45%



The sad thing is we'll never know now how far that 2010 Cavs team could have gone because of the odd turn of events after Game 3 against Boston with LeBron visibly pouting/quitting.

They were up 2-1 and if LeBron played even close to his usual level, the Cavs in all likelihood win the series. The Celtics deserve some credit, but LeBron just seemed off and he played like garbage in the last 3 games. He just didn't seem like himself at all. I don't know if he was looking towards the summer joining Miami, or if the Delonte rumor was true, but he really looked visibly distracted.

[SexSymbol]

vs. '09 Magic

LeBron: 39/8/8 on 48%
Kobe: 32/6/7 on 43%

vs. '10 Celtics

LeBron: 27/9/7 on 45%
Kobe: 29/8/4 on 41%
Did you watch one game of any of these series?
09 vs magic, Bron averages like 40 first give games, then ends the series with a 25 point game playing passive as fock. An Empty stats series if I ever see one. Aside from one pretty lucky, yet clutch, shot, Cavs lose 4-1 while being heavily favored and having a practically equal supporting cast to what Howard had.

Kobe played great against the celtics for six games, and in the one that he played horribly for three quarters (as did every other player on the floor), he stepped up in the 4th and found other ways of contributing to the win and a comeback performance both series wise (getting back from 3-2) and game wise (I remember Lakers were down pretty big in G7, I don't remember the exact number). Meanwhile bron quit on his team in a crucial game.
Basically, what you're saying, is because Bron's numbers in a few categories are slightly better, he played better series even while quitting and losing said series? Are you retarded? It's not all about numbers, it's just not. There's a reason bron said Kobe was the best in bron's mvp year. It's because he was

[SexSymbol]

The sad thing is we'll never know now how far that 2010 Cavs team could have gone because of the odd turn of events after Game 3 against Boston with LeBron visibly pouting/quitting.

They were up 2-1 and if LeBron played even close to his usual level, the Cavs in all likelihood win the series. The Celtics deserve some credit, but LeBron just seemed off and he played like garbage in the last 3 games. He just didn't seem like himself at all. I don't know if he was looking towards the summer joining Miami, or if the Delonte rumor was true, but he really looked visibly distracted.
not an excuse.

[Wade's Rings]

2006-2008 he was clearly the best player in the game IMO, 2009 and 2010 however, although he had the better seasons, but he was not clearly superior to LeBron and Wade IMO.

2009 he was at least top 3 though. He has a case for top 2 behind LeBron, or even being the best player again, but I go with LeBron and Wade as the top 2, which isn't a knock on Kobe because he was at the tail end of his prime. 2010 he's at least #2 behind LeBron. Wade's laziness allowed Kobe to get back to top 2 comfortably, and Lebron's choke/quit job was enough for a lot of fans to have Kobe as the best again after winning a 5th ring, but I still give the slight edge to LeBron despite that.

How can you say Kobe was clearly the Best in 2006 after Wade's Elite Run?

How was Kobe comfortably ahead of Wade in 2010? Wade dropped 27/5/7 and 33/6/7/2/1.5 in the Playoffs?

[dubeta]

LOL Wade and Kobe don't deserve to be in this debate

Over that time frame

Kobe

2006- lose in first round

2007- lose in first round

2008- *finals appearance

2009- *Garnett injured

2010- *6/24 Gasol real FMVP


Wade

2007- swept in 1st round

2008- miss playoffs

2009- lose with HCA in the first round

2010- lose in 1st round

[SouBeachTalents]

LOL Wade and Kobe don't deserve to be in this debate

Over that time frame

Kobe

2006- lose in first round

2007- lose in first round

2008- *finals appearance

2009- *Garnett injured

2010- *6/24 Gasol real FMVP


Wade

2007- swept in 1st round

2008- miss playoffs

2009- lose with HCA in the first round

2010- lose in 1st round

:roll: I like how you conveniently left out '06 for Wade. He also didn't have HCA in '09, and he lost to the Celtics in '10 playing significantly better than LeBron did

[dubeta]

:roll: I like how you conveniently left out '06 for Wade. He also didn't have HCA in '09, and he lost to the Celtics in '10 playing significantly better than LeBron did

That's arguing semantics, either way Wade was either making the lottery, or losing in the 1st round

[Wade's Rings]

LOL Wade and Kobe don't deserve to be in this debate

Over that time frame

Kobe

2006- lose in first round

2007- lose in first round

2008- *finals appearance

2009- *Garnett injured

2010- *6/24 Gasol real FMVP


Wade

2007- swept in 1st round

2008- miss playoffs

2009- lose with HCA in the first round

2010- lose in 1st round

Lebron

2004- Misses Playoffs

2005- Misses Playoffs

2009- Lost with HCA

2010- Lost with HCA

2011- Lost with HCA

2013*- Ray Allen


Oh BTW Wade didn't have Homecourt in 2009. If you're going to troll at least get your facts right :oldlol:

[SexSymbol]

How can you say Kobe was clearly the Best in 2006 after Wade's Elite Run?

How was Kobe comfortably ahead of Wade in 2010? Wade dropped 27/5/7 and 33/6/7/2/1.5 in the Playoffs?
If you watched 06 finals you know it was a terrible rig job. He was getting fouls without even being touched. It's the same as with Harden of today, it's hard to rank him as the best player, even in his stats are amazing, because you know that his impact isn't that great.
It's true, their statlines were very comparable in 10' regular season. But why would you bring the playoffs average if he only played one series and got nearly got swept? You wanna be compared with players who win, go ahead and have a historic regular season. Kobe averaged 29/6/6 while playing against 4 50 win teams and beating them in the playoffs, wade averaged 33/6/7 against one team that he was destroyed against and even those averages are inflated because of one game
Wade was better than Kobe in 2011 for sure, but we ain't going that far now

[SexSymbol]

LOL Wade and Kobe don't deserve to be in this debate

Over that time frame

Kobe

2006- lose in first round

2007- lose in first round

2008- *finals appearance

2009- *Garnett injured

2010- *6/24 Gasol real FMVP


Wade

2007- swept in 1st round

2008- miss playoffs

2009- lose with HCA in the first round

2010- lose in 1st round

That's something you don't see everyday.

[ArbitraryWater]

Did you watch one game of any of these series?
09 vs magic, Bron averages like 40 first give games, then ends the series with a 25 point game playing passive as fock. An Empty stats series if I ever see one. Aside from one pretty lucky, yet clutch, shot, Cavs lose 4-1 while being heavily favored and having a practically equal supporting cast to what Howard had.

Kobe played great against the celtics for six games, and in the one that he played horribly for three quarters (as did every other player on the floor), he stepped up in the 4th and found other ways of contributing to the win and a comeback performance both series wise (getting back from 3-2) and game wise (I remember Lakers were down pretty big in G7, I don't remember the exact number). Meanwhile bron quit on his team in a crucial game.
Basically, what you're saying, is because Bron's numbers in a few categories are slightly better, he played better series even while quitting and losing said series? Are you retarded? It's not all about numbers, it's just not. There's a reason bron said Kobe was the best in bron's mvp year. It's because he was

How can a person honestly believe this? :oldlol:

If the supporting cast actually was equal it would have been a sweep dumbass...

2009 Magic are actually underrated, they had a dominant inside presence and 3 point shooters, blueprint to success today, like the Warriors.

They went hot from 3 and nobody besides LeBron stepped up.

Picking at game 6 (or the game 4 TO's) is an extreme case of nitpicking, since they wouldn't even have been in either close positions (score and series score wise) without LeBron.

This is what his teammates actually did:

Game 1: Mo Williams 6 for 19, Delonte West 4 for 13, Bench 2 for 7 (lost by 1 on last second shot)
Game 2: Mo Williams 7 for 21, rest okay (win by 1 on LeBron game winner)
Game 3: Delonte West 5 for 11, Mo Williams 5 for 16, Big Z 3 for 10, Bench 4 for 10 (lost by 10, down 4 with 2.30 left)
Game 4: Delonte West 7-15, Mo Williams 5-15, Illgauskas/Varejao okay, Bench garbage (OT lose by 2 on last second shot)
Game 5: good all-around team game (win by 10)
Game 6: bad all around team game, over at halftime (lose by 13)

Game 1 was lost on a missed game winner by Mo Williams, game 2 was won on a game winner by LeBron, game 3 down 4 with 2.30 minutes left, game 4 lost in double overtime as LeBron missed a halfcourt heave in the last second, game 5 won on a LeBron 37 point triple double, and only game 6 lost in a blowout.

As you can see, the team left LeBron alone in virtually every game. Yet his heroics made EVERY game but game 6 go right down to the wire...

So actually, you had an Orlando Magic team with a top 5 player, dominant 2-side presence in one of his better series' ever, on a team with 3 all-stars and an array of 3-point shooters and an overall greatly built team, going off against a team exposed in the regular season, carried by an Individual coming off one of the strongest campaigns ever, evidenced by all advanced metrics.
LeBron in the regular season had an impact of: w/ LeBron: +15 w/o LeBron: -6.2 (21.2)

LeBron came OFF 2 monstrous series' before this, so as you can see he was pretty easily the NBA's best basketball player throughout the entire year, and only Wade matched him in the regular season, but was burned out come playoff time.

[Wade's Rings]

If you watched 06 finals you know it was a terrible rig job. He was getting fouls without even being touched. It's the same as with Harden of today, it's hard to rank him as the best player, even in his stats are amazing, because you know that his impact isn't that great.
It's true, their statlines were very comparable in 10' regular season. But why would you bring the playoffs average if he only played one series and got nearly got swept? You wanna be compared with players who win, go ahead and have a historic regular season. Kobe averaged 29/6/6 while playing against 4 50 win teams and beating them in the playoffs, wade averaged 33/6/7 against one team that he was destroyed against and even those averages are inflated because of one game
Wade was better than Kobe in 2011 for sure, but we ain't going that far now

If the 2006 Finals was rigged, what was the 2002 Conference Finals? 2010 Game 7 4th Quarter? 2008 vs the Jazz?

Wade's 2nd Option averaged 2ppg on 15% shooting and his 3rd option 8ppg on 33%. He was expected to win with his "help" being that garbage? Stop this nonsense.

[SexSymbol]

How can a person honestly believe this? :oldlol:

If the supporting cast actually was equal it would have been a sweep dumbass...

2009 Magic are actually underrated, they had a dominant inside presence and 3 point shooters, blueprint to success today, like the Warriors.

They went hot from 3 and nobody besides LeBron stepped up.

Picking at game 6 (or the game 4 TO's) is an extreme case of nitpicking, since they wouldn't even have been in either close positions (score and series score wise) without LeBron.

This is what his teammates actually did:

Game 1: Mo Williams 6 for 19, Delonte West 4 for 13, Bench 2 for 7 (lost by 1 on last second shot)
Game 2: Mo Williams 7 for 21, rest okay (win by 1 on LeBron game winner)
Game 3: Delonte West 5 for 11, Mo Williams 5 for 16, Big Z 3 for 10, Bench 4 for 10 (lost by 10, down 4 with 2.30 left)
Game 4: Delonte West 7-15, Mo Williams 5-15, Illgauskas/Varejao okay, Bench garbage (OT lose by 2 on last second shot)
Game 5: good all-around team game (win by 10)
Game 6: bad all around team game, over at halftime (lose by 13)

Game 1 was lost on a missed game winner by Mo Williams, game 2 was won on a game winner by LeBron, game 3 down 4 with 2.30 minutes left, game 4 lost in double overtime as LeBron missed a halfcourt heave in the last second, game 5 won on a LeBron 37 point triple double, and only game 6 lost in a blowout.

As you can see, the team left LeBron alone in virtually every game. Yet his heroics made EVERY game but game 6 go right down to the wire...

So actually, you had an Orlando Magic team with a top 5 player, dominant 2-side presence in one of his better series' ever, on a team with 3 all-stars and an array of 3-point shooters and an overall greatly built team, going off against a team exposed in the regular season, carried by an Individual coming off one of the strongest campaigns ever, evidenced by all advanced metrics.
LeBron in the regular season had an impact of: w/ LeBron: +15 w/o LeBron: -6.2 (21.2)

LeBron came OFF 2 monstrous series' before this, so as you can see he was pretty easily the NBA's best basketball player throughout the entire year, and only Wade matched him in the regular season, but was burned out come playoff time.
I agree that 09 magic are underrated somewhat, but so is 09 cavs. It's not the team's fault that Bron changed up the gameplan so much and took it upon himself to do everything leaving nothing left to teammates. He played differently than he has been playing all season + first two rounds for and it threw his teammates off.

Picking on G6 is not nickpicking, you play whole series, not 5 games, not 4 games.

[Genaro]

Why in threads like these the same old haters always show up? The Mavs guy, TLP, the Lebron stans, just the Wizards fan is missing.

Anyway I agree with OP, since 06:
06-10 - Kobe
11-13 - Lebron
14- KD

[SexSymbol]

If the 2006 Finals was rigged, what was the 2002 Conference Finals? 2010 Game 7 4th Quarter? 2008 vs the Jazz?

Wade's 2nd Option averaged 2ppg on 15% shooting and his 3rd option 8ppg on 33%. He was expected to win with his "help" being that garbage? Stop this nonsense.
What about 08 vs the jazz, first time i hear it being rigged lol
02 G6 was rigged, but the rest of the series not really, first few games refs favored Kings more
G7 4th quarter was normal, one call was questionable when Gasol landed before letting the ball go, but it's extremely hard to call it right in normal time not watching the slow mo replay.

[SexSymbol]

Why in threads like these the same old haters always show up? The Mavs guy, TLP, the Lebron stans, just the Wizards fan is missing.

Anyway I agree with OP, since 06:
06-10 - Kobe
11-13 - Lebron
14- KD
Dirk can be argued for 11, Mavs were terrible without him in the regular season, he had a historic run in the playoffs beating Kobe, durant, bron, wade en route to an upset finals win against bron who performed the biggest choke of nba history. Alright, when I think about this, it's definitely Dirk.

[Ne 1]

Did you watch one game of any of these series?
09 vs magic, Bron averages like 40 first give games, then ends the series with a 25 point game playing passive as fock. An Empty stats series if I ever see one. Aside from one pretty lucky, yet clutch, shot, Cavs lose 4-1 while being heavily favored and having a practically equal supporting cast to what Howard had.


Howard was a match up problem for the Cavs front court which is why they signed Shaq the following year anticipating another playoff series against Orlando. That had a lot to do with them losing.

There were actually some areas though where LeBron could have stepped up though, in particular his defense. His defense was pretty poor in that '09 series vs Orlando and practically exposed. I remember people were talking about how he was a DPOY candidate that year and he showed how he wasn't even close in that ECF. They assigned him to Rafer Alston and made him sag off of him and the thing is LeBron didn't make much of an impact on help defense. He didn't really bother Dwight, though it was hard to do so because of how deep he was setting up, but I don't remember him pressuring the ball to take time off the clock. Kobe's help defense on Dwight in the Finals was a good bit better and often stripped him or forced a deflection.

He also wasn't that good in crunch time... in some of the fourth quarters like missing 5 free throws in game 3 and a whole bunch of turnovers in game 4 late in the game. Game 6 was also pretty weak, 2 points in the fourth.

He didn't get much help vs Orlando, although I don't think that his performance was as astonishing as some people consider it just looking at stats. That goes with saying that Mo, West, Z, Varejao actually all played well in the elimination game (not the entire series, but they were on in game 6), but Lebron pretty much quit at half time.

[Wade's Rings]

What about 08 vs the jazz, first time i hear it being rigged lol
02 G6 was rigged, but the rest of the series not really, first few games refs favored Kings more
G7 4th quarter was normal, one call was questionable when Gasol landed before letting the ball go, but it's extremely hard to call it right in normal time not watching the slow mo replay.

Kobe shot 16 FTA vs the Jazz that series. Game 5 was going the Jazz's way until whistles gave the Lakers momentum. Jazz went down 2-3 instead of potentially being up 3-2.

[ArbitraryWater]

2009 Magic are actually underrated, they had a dominant inside presence and 3 point shooters, blueprint to success today, like the Warriors.

They went hot from 3 and nobody besides LeBron stepped up.

Picking at game 6 (or the game 4 TO's) is an extreme case of nitpicking, since they wouldn't even have been in either close positions (score and series score wise) without LeBron.

This is what his teammates actually did:

Game 1: Mo Williams 6 for 19, Delonte West 4 for 13, Bench 2 for 7 (lost by 1 on last second shot)
Game 2: Mo Williams 7 for 21, rest okay (win by 1 on LeBron game winner)
Game 3: Delonte West 5 for 11, Mo Williams 5 for 16, Big Z 3 for 10, Bench 4 for 10 (lost by 10, down 4 with 2.30 left)
Game 4: Mo Williams 5-15, Illgauskas/Varejao/West solid, Bench garbage (OT lose by 2 on last second shot)
Game 5: good all-around team game (win by 10)
Game 6: LeBron bad, Illgauskas/Szczerbiak 1 of 5 each, rest good, over at halftime (lose by 13)

Game 1 was lost on a missed game winner by Mo Williams, game 2 was won on a game winner by LeBron, game 3 down 4 with 2.30 minutes left, game 4 lost in double overtime as LeBron missed a halfcourt heave in the last second, game 5 won on a LeBron 37 point triple double, and only game 6 lost in a blowout.

As you can see, the team left LeBron alone in virtually every game. Yet his heroics made EVERY game but game 6 go right down to the wire...

So actually, you had an Orlando Magic team with a top 5 player, dominant 2-side presence in one of his better series' ever, on a team with 3 all-stars and an array of 3-point shooters and an overall greatly built team, going off against a team exposed in the regular season, carried by an Individual coming off one of the strongest campaigns ever, evidenced by all advanced metrics.
LeBron in the regular season had an impact of: w/ LeBron: +15 w/o LeBron: -6.2 (21.2)

LeBron came OFF 2 monstrous series' before this, so as you can see he was pretty easily the NBA's best basketball player throughout the entire year, and only Wade matched him in the regular season, but was burned out come playoff time.

[SexSymbol]

Howard was a match up problem for the Cavs front court which is why they signed Shaq the following year anticipating another playoff series against Orlando. That had a lot to do with them losing.

There were actually some areas though where LeBron could have stepped up though, in particular his defense. His defense was pretty poor in that '09 series vs Orlando and practically exposed. I remember people were talking about how he was a DPOY candidate that year and he showed how he wasn't even close in that ECF. They assigned him to Rafer Alston and made him sag off of him and the thing is LeBron didn't make much of an impact on help defense. He didn't really bother Dwight, though it was hard to do so because of how deep he was setting up, but I don't remember him pressuring the ball to take time off the clock. Kobe's help defense on Dwight in the Finals was a good bit better and often stripped him or forced a deflection.

He also wasn't that good in crunch time... in some of the fourth quarters like missing 5 free throws in game 3 and a whole bunch of turnovers in game 4 late in the game. Game 6 was also pretty weak, 2 points in the fourth.

He didn't get much help vs Orlando, although I don't think that his performance was as astonishing as some people consider it just looking at stats. That goes with saying that Mo, West, Z, Varejao actually all played well in the elimination game (not the entire series, but they were on in game 6), but Lebron pretty much quit at half time.
And Bron wasn't for the ORL against a slow ass turkoglu? Though I remember hedo torching bron.

[K Xerxes]

Generally:

99-02: Shaq
03-05: Duncan
06-08: Kobe
09-present: LeBron

[SexSymbol]

Generally:

99-02: Shaq
03-05: Duncan
06-08: Kobe
09-present: LeBron
definitely not

[K Xerxes]

definitely not

09-10 is arguable, but to say definitely not? 09-10 is arguable like 06-08 is.

In terms of 'definites': 99-02 for Shaq, 03 and perhaps 05 for Duncan, none for Kobe although he has the best case for 06-08 IMO. 12 and 13 for Bron. Rest are much more debatable.

You are probably the dumbest Kobe stan on this board. At least some others try to be funny, you offer literally nothing except delusion.

[Wade's Rings]

You are probably the dumbest Kobe stan on this board. At least some others try to be funny, you offer literally nothing except delusion.

Kennethgriffin owns this title.

[K Xerxes]

Kennethgriffin owns this title.

Oh yeah, he slipped my mind. Kenneth is more renowned but I'm pretty sure some of the stuff he comes with he knows is bs. He has admitted to trolling sometimes as far as I recall. SexSymbol is a straight up dumbass who passes as serious all the time.

[SexSymbol]

09-10 is arguable, but to say definitely not? 09-10 is arguable like 06-08 is.

In terms of 'definites': 99-02 for Shaq, 03 and perhaps 05 for Duncan, none for Kobe although he has the best case for 06-08 IMO. 12 and 13 for Bron. Rest are much more debatable.

You are probably the dumbest Kobe stan on this board. At least some others try to be funny, you offer literally nothing except delusion.
I offer insight and facts. And facts are Kobe outperformed both bron and wade in those years, pretty clearly. I've stated many reasons for it in this thread, you stated none, and you have the nerve to call me dumb? C'mon m8, u suck

[Wade's Rings]

I offer insight and facts. And facts are Kobe outperformed both bron and wade in those years, pretty clearly. I've stated many reasons for it in this thread, you stated none, and you have the nerve to call me dumb? C'mon m8, u suck

Wade clearly outperformed Kobe in 2006 then.

[SexSymbol]

Wade clearly outperformed Kobe in 2006 then.
That's fair, at least you provided reasons for that earlier. I still think that Kobe draggin that shit of a team to 45 wins and 35 ppg average with 2nd highest scoring game ever and countless other great performances is what makes it better for me, and I hated how the refs called fouls in 06 series. I wouldn't mind it as much if it was for the whole series, but when the reffing visually changed after G2 it really infuriated me at the time.
It's definitely closer between 06 kobe and wade that between 09 and 10 bron and kobe

[ArbitraryWater]

I offer insight and facts. And facts are Kobe outperformed both bron and wade in those years, pretty clearly. I've stated many reasons for it in this thread, you stated none, and you have the nerve to call me dumb? C'mon m8, u suck

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[SexSymbol]

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an incredible post

[Wade's Rings]

That's fair, at least you provided reasons for that earlier. I still think that Kobe draggin that shit of a team to 45 wins and 35 ppg average with 2nd highest scoring game ever and countless other great performances is what makes it better for me, and I hated how the refs called fouls in 06 series. I wouldn't mind it as much if it was for the whole series, but when the reffing visually changed after G2 it really infuriated me at the time.
It's definitely closer between 06 kobe and wade that between 09 and 10 bron and kobe

Game's 3 & 4 weren't bad at all. Game 3 Wade shot 3 Free Throws in the 4th Quarter. 2 of them came from Dallas stopping the clock(after Dirk choked).

Game 4 was a blow out.

[DMAVS41]

I agree that 09 magic are underrated somewhat, but so is 09 cavs. It's not the team's fault that Bron changed up the gameplan so much and took it upon himself to do everything leaving nothing left to teammates. He played differently than he has been playing all season + first two rounds for and it threw his teammates off.

Picking on G6 is not nickpicking, you play whole series, not 5 games, not 4 games.

Then how was Kobe the best player in 06?

Wasn't the best regular season player and then blows a 3-1 series lead and quits in game 7.

You play a whole series, not 5 games, not 4 games.

Do you see why non Kobe stans can never follow this kind of logic?

[SexSymbol]

[/B]

Then how was Kobe the best player in 06?

Wasn't the best regular season player and then blows a 3-1 series lead and quits in game 7.

You play a whole series, not 5 games, not 4 games.

Do you see why non Kobe stans can never follow this kind of logic?
He didn't quit, it was Pjax's plan to use him as a decoy in some of the games, and when that didn't have a positive effect, Kobe went off. He chose to trust Phil to a fault in G7.

[DMAVS41]

He didn't quit, it was Pjax's plan to use him as a decoy in some of the games, and when that didn't have a positive effect, Kobe went off. He chose to trust Phil to a fault in G7.

That is what I would call an ex post facto explanation. Which is a fitting term here because I think of religion when I see that phrase...and Kobe stans worship Kobe like he's a god....so....

But regardless it's irrelevant.

I'm still waiting to hear how he was the best player in 06 when he wasn't as good as certain guys in the regular season and then he didn't do anything of note in the playoffs...and no matter the reason...came up small in that game 7.

You simply can't have 06 and stay consistent.

And that just speaks to this issue. You say Kobe was the best. I say he wasn't. We can turn to objective data...it supports me. You are then left with going on and on about highly subjective things...

I trust my opinion and eye test more than yours...and when I see data backing him...I'm comfortable in my conclusion.

If anything other than Kobe fans supported Kobe being hands down the best player...like...you know...some kind of evidence other than opinion...i'd rework my conclusion.

But why was Kobe better than Wade in 06 for example?

[SexSymbol]

That is what I would call an ex post facto explanation. Which is a fitting term here because I think of religion when I see that phrase...and Kobe stans worship Kobe like he's a god....so....

But regardless it's irrelevant.

I'm still waiting to hear how he was the best player in 06 when he wasn't as good as certain guys in the regular season and then he didn't do anything of note in the playoffs...and no matter the reason...came up small in that game 7.

You simply can't have 06 and stay consistent.

And that just speaks to this issue. You say Kobe was the best. I say he wasn't. We can turn to objective data...it supports me. You are then left with going on and on about highly subjective things...

I trust my opinion and eye test more than yours...and when I see data backing him...I'm comfortable in my conclusion.

If anything other than Kobe fans supported Kobe being hands down the best player...like...you know...some kind of evidence other than opinion...i'd rework my conclusion.

But why was Kobe better than Wade in 06 for example?
Wait, so stats is the only objective criteria on which to judge players? You do realize that stats are very subjective and a lot of times don't even tell half the story?
And how is Phil admitting it was his plan to use Kobe as a decoy not an objective reason? If you're used as a decoy, obviously you won't have an amazing scoring game, but you contribute in other ways that just don't show on the stat sheet. C'mon man, you've been here a long time, you should be better than this.

and who was better in regular season of 06 than Kobe and why?
I've written my reasons for Kobe being best in the OP posts, I can't understand why you're saying "i'm still waiting on reasons" if I already stated them and many of them. It' just a historic season

Regarding the comment thing, ever watched volumes of comments on kobe bryant? Or GM survey?

[HOoopCityJones]

I'm not even gonna get to it, ****** used contradictory arguments.

If you say Kobe was better 06 (where he was def statistically better than anybody) They say it was Wade or Dirk because, The Finals.

If you say 08-10 because he had great stats plus was winning championships in this time frame , they say no, someone else was statistically better.


His early dominance doesn't count either because, Shaq. But fucc the stacked rosters filled with Goats ni99as like KAJ,Magic and Bird had.


Laker faithful , I suggest you stop arguing with these deluded fuccs, the goal post always changes and these hypocritical arguments couldn't get anymore cringe worthy.

Half of these children are 13-16 range and just started watching Basketball in 2010, all they know is the Lebron era and are looking back at what Kobe's done with shit tinted glasses.

They don't look for the best player, they look for the metrics.

[DMAVS41]

Wait, so stats is the only objective criteria on which to judge players? You do realize that stats are very subjective and a lot of times don't even tell half the story?
And how is Phil admitting it was his plan to use Kobe as a decoy not an objective reason? If you're used as a decoy, obviously you won't have an amazing scoring game, but you contribute in other ways that just don't show on the stat sheet. C'mon man, you've been here a long time, you should be better than this.

and who was better in regular season of 06 than Kobe and why?
I've written my reasons for Kobe being best in the OP posts, I can't understand why you're saying "i'm still waiting on reasons" if I already stated them and many of them. It' just a historic season

Regarding the comment thing, ever watched volumes of comments on kobe bryant? Or GM survey?


And Wade, Duncan, and Dirk also had great seasons.

My point is that when I watched all those guys play the entire year and I take into account the entire body of work. I don't see why Kobe would be known as the best player that year.

One of the best players? Sure.

But he didn't have the kind of case like he did in 08, for example, where I thought it was pretty clear...although KG and CP3 were also very good.

Your reasons or good reasons for why Kobe is a great player...they aren't good reasons why he was better than guys making just as big of an impact and playing better in the playoffs.

These eras are arbitrary anyway.

If I was doing it broadly....it would be something like:

99-02...Shaq
03...Duncan
04...KG
05-07...Duncan
08...Kobe
09-10...Lebron
11...Dirk
12-13...Lebron
14....Don't know...Lebron probably for me
15...Lebron

At some point you have to come to the realization that not everyone watches Kobe and gets the same fuzzy feelings you do...and you must realize that Kobe was playing during a team with other truly great players balling out.

Did you watch basketball back then? You really watched Dirk and Duncan go at it the 2nd round in that all time great series...and you came away thinking that Kobe was hands down better than both of them? I mean....really?

That is why I don't buy this shit.

If you were on here saying it's close or Kobe has an argument for best player for a few of those years....then yea...totally agree.

But this notion that Kobe had some era of dominance and was the best player in the game clearly for that stretch just isn't true.

He was great, but other guys were ****ing great as well....that is what seems to be missing.

And I'm still waiting to understand how Kobe was better than Wade in 06.

[catch24]

From 2006-2008, Kobe was clearly the best player in the game.

Wade is one of my favorite players ever, but even Alonzo Mourning knew what's up after the Heat won a title (2006):


Dan asked Zo, Who is the best player in the NBA today?

Zo: "Kobe Bryant cuz he's the most talented player in the game today and he could do anything"

Dan: What does Kobe do better than Wade?

Zo: "Ahhh there pretty close but, Kobe is a better scorer, a better shooter than Wade, but Wade is close to Kobe, but Kobe is the best right now and i think he deserved the MVP.

Dan: Why did Kobe deserve the MVP and not Steve Nash?

Zo: "Did you see what Kobe was doing for his team? Now they call it the Most Valuable Player for his team and your telling what Kobe did for that team this year was not the most valuable out of all the players? Kobe deserved the MVP that kid did it all, there is no way the things he did and what he did for that specific team that he didn't deserve the MVP"

2009? Some had LeBron; some had Kobe; and others had Wade. I personally thought LeBron was the best player in 2010, tbh.

[HOoopCityJones]

And Wade, Duncan, and Dirk also had great seasons.

My point is that when I watched all those guys play the entire year and I take into account the entire body of work. I don't see why Kobe would be known as the best player that year.

One of the best players? Sure.

But he didn't have the kind of case like he did in 08, for example, where I thought it was pretty clear...although KG and CP3 were also very good.

Your reasons or good reasons for why Kobe is a great player...they aren't good reasons why he was better than guys making just as big of an impact and playing better in the playoffs.

These eras are arbitrary anyway.

If I was doing it broadly....it would be something like:

99-02...Shaq
03...Duncan
04...KG
05-07...Duncan
08...Kobe
09-10...Lebron
11...Dirk
12-13...Lebron
14....Don't know...Lebron probably for me
15...Lebron

At some point you have to come to the realization that not everyone watches Kobe and gets the same fuzzy feelings you do...and you must realize that Kobe was playing during a team with other truly great players balling out.

Did you watch basketball back then? You really watched Dirk and Duncan go at it the 2nd round in that all time great series...and you came away thinking that Kobe was hands down better than both of them? I mean....really?

That is why I don't buy this shit.

If you were on here saying it's close or Kobe has an argument for best player for a few of those years....then yea...totally agree.

But this notion that Kobe had some era of dominance and was the best player in the game clearly for that stretch just isn't true.

He was great, but other guys were ****ing great as well....that is what seems to be missing.

And I'm still waiting to understand how Kobe was better than Wade in 06.

Because Wade couldn't do any of the shit Kobe did that year if his life depended on it.

[HOoopCityJones]

From 2006-2008, Kobe was clearly the best player in the game.

Wade is one of my favorite players ever, but even Alonzo Mourning knew what's up after the Heat won a title (2006):



2009 some had LeBron; some had Kobe; and others had Wade. I personally thought LeBron was the best player in 2010, tbh.


ISH basement dwellers opinions matter more than all-time Greats. You didn't know?


Even Wade has said numerous times this era was Kobe's .

[ArbitraryWater]

From 2006-2008, Kobe was clearly the best player in the game.

Wade is one of my favorite players ever, but even Alonzo Mourning knew what's up after the Heat won a title (2006):



2009? Some had LeBron; some had Kobe; and others had Wade. I personally thought LeBron was the best player in 2010, tbh.

Kobe fans don't seem to be satisfied with having a good argument as best... no, it must be "clearly"... lets create a world where it looks like he clearly set himself apart from the pack (he didnt), where his 'run' reminisces MJ's.. sorry, it doesnt. JORDAN, was CLEARLY the best during his time... Kobe wasn't.

[SouBeachTalents]

And Wade, Duncan, and Dirk also had great seasons.

My point is that when I watched all those guys play the entire year and I take into account the entire body of work. I don't see why Kobe would be known as the best player that year.

One of the best players? Sure.

But he didn't have the kind of case like he did in 08, for example, where I thought it was pretty clear...although KG and CP3 were also very good.

Your reasons or good reasons for why Kobe is a great player...they aren't good reasons why he was better than guys making just as big of an impact and playing better in the playoffs.

These eras are arbitrary anyway.

If I was doing it broadly....it would be something like:

99-02...Shaq
03...Duncan
04...KG
05-07...Duncan
08...Kobe
09-10...Lebron
11...Dirk
12-13...Lebron
14....Don't know...Lebron probably for me
15...Lebron

At some point you have to come to the realization that not everyone watches Kobe and gets the same fuzzy feelings you do...and you must realize that Kobe was playing during a team with other truly great players balling out.

Did you watch basketball back then? You really watched Dirk and Duncan go at it the 2nd round in that all time great series...and you came away thinking that Kobe was hands down better than both of them? I mean....really?

That is why I don't buy this shit.

If you were on here saying it's close or Kobe has an argument for best player for a few of those years....then yea...totally agree.

But this notion that Kobe had some era of dominance and was the best player in the game clearly for that stretch just isn't true.

He was great, but other guys were ****ing great as well....that is what seems to be missing.

And I'm still waiting to understand how Kobe was better than Wade in 06.

:applause: Agree 100%. If people want to argue Kobe as the best player for any season from '06-'10, I'd have no problem with that, he'd have as good an argument as anybody else. But if they say he was in a class all his own and nobody was even close, that's when it becomes ridiculous. Wade has a great argument for '06, as does LeBron for '09 & '10, while '07 could go to a number of players. Only in '08 imo does no other player have an argument over Kobe

[SexSymbol]

And Wade, Duncan, and Dirk also had great seasons.

My point is that when I watched all those guys play the entire year and I take into account the entire body of work. I don't see why Kobe would be known as the best player that year.

One of the best players? Sure.

But he didn't have the kind of case like he did in 08, for example, where I thought it was pretty clear...although KG and CP3 were also very good.

Your reasons or good reasons for why Kobe is a great player...they aren't good reasons why he was better than guys making just as big of an impact and playing better in the playoffs.

These eras are arbitrary anyway.

If I was doing it broadly....it would be something like:

99-02...Shaq
03...Duncan
04...KG
05-07...Duncan
08...Kobe
09-10...Lebron
11...Dirk
12-13...Lebron
14....Don't know...Lebron probably for me
15...Lebron

At some point you have to come to the realization that not everyone watches Kobe and gets the same fuzzy feelings you do...and you must realize that Kobe was playing during a team with other truly great players balling out.

Did you watch basketball back then? You really watched Dirk and Duncan go at it the 2nd round in that all time great series...and you came away thinking that Kobe was hands down better than both of them? I mean....really?

That is why I don't buy this shit.

If you were on here saying it's close or Kobe has an argument for best player for a few of those years....then yea...totally agree.

But this notion that Kobe had some era of dominance and was the best player in the game clearly for that stretch just isn't true.

He was great, but other guys were ****ing great as well....that is what seems to be missing.

And I'm still waiting to understand how Kobe was better than Wade in 06.

You do hate Kobe with a passion mate, don't you. You probably get a fuzzy feeling watching him play, and get sad when he does some great stuff on the court, don't you?
All I see in your posts is agenda driven propoganda, aimed to downplay Kobe's greatness, mainly for the benefit of Dirk/Bron. And it's true, and you know it.
When you say stuff like some players were better than kobe in 06 regular season, you just can't redeem yourself man, you just can't. He dragged the 10 win 76ers like supporting cast to 45 wins on his back and lead them to G7 against number one seeded suns where the lakers didn't even have business being in. It's a historic season, and it's probably a top 10 regular season ever.

Your argument that he was great, but other guys were great too is kinda strange, that is true for every season ever.
03 - duncan's year, but shaq and kobe were also great
14 - durant's year, but bron was great as well.
01 - Shaq's year, but Kobe and Iverson and Duncan were great as well.

Just because your the best doesn't mean other players can't be close to your level.

[MEB2kDeez]

ISH basement dwellers opinions matter more than all-time Greats. You didn't know?


Even Wade has said numerous times this era was Kobe's .
No point in arguing bruh lol.

[Wade's Rings]

From 2006-2008, Kobe was clearly the best player in the game.

How does quoting Zo make Kobe the best in the Game?

[SexSymbol]

:applause: Agree 100%. If people want to argue Kobe as the best player for any season from '06-'10, I'd have no problem with that, he'd have as good an argument as anybody else. But if they say he was in a class all his own and nobody was even close, that's when it becomes ridiculous. Wade has a great argument for '06, as does LeBron for '09 & '10, while '07 could go to a number of players. Only '08 imo does no other player have an argument over Kobe
Who says that? All I'm saying is he was the best, I'm not implying nobody was even close

[Wade's Rings]

Even Wade has said numerous times this era was Kobe's .

Jerry West(Guy who drafted Kobe) said Lebron has surpassed him 2009.

Wade said when Healthy he's the best 2 guard in the League. So that means from 2003-2006 & 2008-2012 he was better than Kobe right?

Edit: Wade only said once, Kobe was the Player of their era(2013).

[SexSymbol]

Jerry West(Guy who drafted Kobe) said Lebron has surpassed him 2009.

Wade said when Healthy he's the best 2 guard in the League. So that means from 2003-2006 & 2008-2012 he was better than Kobe right?

Edit: Wade only said once, Kobe was the Player of their era(2013).
Magic said that too and then apologised publicaly

[Wade's Rings]

Magic said that too and then apologised publicaly

Magic known to be a flip-flopper?

[SexSymbol]

Magic known to be a flip-flopper?
As if west isn't

[Wade's Rings]

As if west isn't

Evidence to back this up?

[catch24]

Kobe fans don't seem to be satisfied with having a good argument as best... no, it must be "clearly"... lets create a world where it looks like he clearly set himself apart from the pack (he didnt), where his 'run' reminisces MJ's.. sorry, it doesnt. JORDAN, was CLEARLY the best during his time... Kobe wasn't.
Haven't been here in a minute, and I already got posters feeling a certain way.. Sleep it off bro, it ain't that serious. :cheers:


How does quoting Zo make Kobe the best in the Game?

I think it speaks volumes whenever a HOFer you played with, thinks that other guy in another conference is better than you. Just my opinion.

BTW, I'm only speaking about 2006-2008. 2009 and 2010 are def different with LeBron really separating himself before the inexplicable mid-series meltdown vs Boston.

[tpols]

Hands down he was better than Dirk, Duncan, and Wade during that time?


06 to 08.. hell yea.

Dirk outside years kobe was hurt and 2011, was never a better basketball player than Kobe. Its not some gigantic difference, reltively small really, but it is what it is.

If you give Wade and Duncan 06 and 07 respectively, you're basing your opinion off of hindsight team success the fact that they won rings in those years while being top 3 players.. but if you use that logic then 09 and 10 are Kobe's years.

You cant have it both ways.


Its either 09-10 or 06-08 if your logic is consistent.. but as far as ability and not legacy stuff 06-08 was really kobe's league.. he just had an all time bad team in a good conference so he couldnt win at that point like duncan (who had amazing ATG help, and Wade who also had good help iun a mediocre conference + refs).

[DMAVS41]

06 to 08.. hell yea.

Dirk outside years kobe was hurt and 2011, was never a better basketball player than Kobe. Its not some gigantic difference, reltively small really, but it is what it is.

If you give Wade and Duncan 06 and 07 respectively, you're basing your opinion off of hindsight team success the fact that they won rings in those years while being top 3 players.. but if you use that logic then 09 and 10 are Kobe's years.

You cant have it both ways.


Its either 09-10 or 06-08 if your logic is consistent.. but as far as ability and not legacy stuff 06-08 was really kobe's league.. he just had an all time bad team in a good conference so he couldnt win at that point like duncan (who had amazing ATG help, and Wade who also had good help iun a mediocre conference + refs).

Actually no.

I'm basing it off how I viewed them and Kobe as basketball players.

You know my takes on Dirk vs Kobe...but we won't go there here to derail this thread.

This is my exact point...You want me to say Kobe was better than Duncan in 06 and 07...but he wasn't in my opinion. I'd take Duncan over Kobe and not have to think. You love RAPM...why do you ignore it completely here.

Hindsight team success? Wade in 06 put up 27/6/7 on 58% TS. He was a better defender than Kobe that year as well. I liked Wade's style of game better....he was a better playmaker and his ability to get to the rim and draw fouls made him essentially unguardable. He didn't settle for as many bad shots as Kobe and he didn't have the "me against the world" attitude that I think Kobe took onto the court too often.

To say the only reason one might take Dirk, Duncan, or Wade over Kobe in 06 is based on hate or hindsight is just false.

It's just that not everyone goes nuts over a guy shooting nearly everytime he touches the ball and playing little to no defense.




To your last point. Nope...wrong again. This is what you Kobe stans can't seem to get through your head.

The reason I can take Wade or Duncan or Dirk in 06 over Kobe...and then take Wade or Lebron over Kobe in 09 and 10 is because I actually think they were as good or better basketball players those years.

It's not about team success. It's about how good the players were and what they did.

And what do you know...that RAPM measure that you tout so often on here supports me.

Funny how you want to abandon that now...right?

I don't, by any means, think that is the end all be all...but the point is that you guys are making this claim...and very little outside of your opinion is being used to support it. Which is fine, but then don't act like someone isn't on solid grounds taking these guys over Kobe....because we are.

[DMAVS41]

Because Wade couldn't do any of the shit Kobe did that year if his life depended on it.

Like what?

Score 81 points or 60 through 3 qtrs? Totally agree.

But that doesn't make on a better basketball player.

I've never seen Kobe, at any point of his career, dominate a NBA finals in jeopardy like Wade did in 06.

So while Wade was having a historic finals...Kobe was blowing a 3-1 series lead and not playing well in a game 7.

Wade was a better defender....and to laugh off 27/6/7 58% TS and a dominant playoff run is absurd.

You do realize that Iverson put up 33/3/7 in 06...right? You make it sound like averaging 35 that year is the craziest thing ever...

[Wade's Rings]

and Wade who also had good help iun a mediocre conference + refs).

Wade went through the 3 of the Top 6 Defenses in his Conference. Conference wasn't great though but still facing the best Defenses.

Can we please stop with the Refs BS. Kobe had a series shooting 16 FTA per Game vs the Jazz. In Game 5(Series 2-2) the Jazz were up and a series of calls turned the momentum in the Lakers favor. Jazz go down 2-3 instead of potentially going up 3-2.
Had another series shooting 15 FTA per game vs the Kings.

If we're talking refs help, please explain what Game 6 of the 2002 Conference Finals was? Or the 4th quarter of Game 7 vs the Celtics in 2010?

Kobe stans always bring up the refs while their favorite player plays for the Lakers. David Stern said his perfect Finals would be Lakers vs Lakers but Wade only won because of the "refs".

[Wade's Rings]

Like what?

Score 81 points or 60 through 3 qtrs? Totally agree.

But that doesn't make on a better basketball player.

I've never seen Kobe, at any point of his career, dominate a NBA finals in jeopardy like Wade did in 06.

So while Wade was having a historic finals...Kobe was blowing a 3-1 series lead and not playing well in a game 7.

Wade was a better defender....and to laugh off 27/6/7 58% TS and a dominant playoff run is absurd.

You do realize that Iverson put up 33/3/7 in 06...right? You make it sound like averaging 35 that year is the craziest thing ever...

This is hoopcity and markmadsens only argument as to why Kobe is better than Wade those Years. They see nothing else but 40+ point Games and the scoring records.

When has Kobe every finished 3rd in DPOY voting? When has Kobe ever dominated defensively like Wade? When has Kobe ever anchored a defense?

[HOoopCityJones]

Like what?

Score 81 points or 60 through 3 qtrs? Totally agree.

But that doesn't make on a better basketball player.

I've never seen Kobe, at any point of his career, dominate a NBA finals in jeopardy like Wade did in 06.

So while Wade was having a historic finals...Kobe was blowing a 3-1 series lead and not playing well in a game 7.

Wade was a better defender....and to laugh off 27/6/7 58% TS and a dominant playoff run is absurd.

You do realize that Iverson put up 33/3/7 in 06...right? You make it sound like averaging 35 that year is the craziest thing ever...

You have no argument bro, Tpols already bodied you with your contradictory logic.

[DMAVS41]

You have no argument bro, Tpols already bodied you with your contradictory logic.

That was a straw man.

My argument is simple.

I personally thought Wade and Duncan were better than Kobe in 06.

Then I go check the numbers and results and they back up what I concluded by watching.

There is nothing contradictory about doing that in 06 and taking them over Kobe....and taking Lebron over Kobe in 09 for example.

I thought they were better players those years. It has nothing to do with team success.

The actually contradictory position is the clowns that take kobe in 06 and 09...that position makes no sense.

Sorry....just take the L

[TheMarkMadsen]

This is hoopcity and markmadsens only argument as to why Kobe is better than Wade those Years. They see nothing else but 40+ point Games and the scoring records.

When has Kobe every finished 3rd in DPOY voting? When has Kobe ever dominated defensively like Wade? When has Kobe ever anchored a defense?

02

When has Kobe ever anchored a defense? lol when has Wade ever averaged 2 steals and 2 blocks per game during a championship run like Kobe did at age 21?

[TheMarkMadsen]

gotta love Kobe hater logic in this thread

Wade best player 06 because of playoffs (ignores Kobe's historical season)

Wade best player in 09 because of regular season (ignores Kobe's 30/6/6 run to the championship)

Duncan literally has no argument at being better than Kobe in the 2007 regular season, solely basing that off of playoffs, but then 09 and 10 we just ignore playoffs, ignore that Kobe had the only 30/6/6 run to the finals since Jordan,,

embarrassing watching them have to move the goal post to be honest

[tpols]

You didnt think that really though.. you just sorta looked at the numbers in hindsight, a decade later, and tried to use them as facts.. since its much easier to quote a number than it is to articulate the climate at the time.


I've used rapm.. but only as a means of separating impact players from non impact players. Like when you said 2011 D-Rose was just monta Ellis level player because their raw stats were similar, but monta was trotting out negative rapms for years at a time while Rose was a 4+. I even prefaced it every time with "its by no means an end all be all".. just used to distinguish empty stats from real impact.


As far as rapm goes, Duncan had a higher score in 2008. Why do you have Kobe over him? If you kept with your logic.. you'd have to say Duncan was better than Kobe in 2008 too.

You'd have to say Dwight Howard in 2009 was > Kobe too..

You'd have to say Chris Paul in damn near every year of his peak/prime was better than Kobe too..

But you know you cant take it that far.. because it'd make you look retarded. So you're toeing the line.




How can Duncan score a higher rapm and have more impact all year than Kobe in 2008.. but then we see duncan get waxed head to head? Seems kinda trivial right?

Funny thing is It would have been more of the same in 2007 if Kobe had a team comparable to Duncans.. Duncan wouldve outproduced him all year long, and wouldve gotten his shit stuffed when they met, just like he did in 2008. And then of course you'd look silly.

[Jacks3]

lol @ the guy who said Wade was anchoring defenses.

[DMAVS41]

You didnt think that really though.. you just sorta looked at the numbers in hindsight, a decade later, and tried to use them as facts.. since its much easier to quote a number than it is to articulate the climate at the time.


I've used rapm.. but only as a means of separating impact players from non impact players. Like when you said 2011 D-Rose was just monta Ellis level player because their raw stats were similar, but monta was trotting out negative rapms for years at a time while Rose was a 4+. I even prefaced it every time with "its by no means an end all be all".. just used to distinguish empty stats from real impact.


As far as rapm goes, Duncan had a higher score in 2008. Why do you have Kobe over him? If you kept with your logic.. you'd have to say Duncan was better than Kobe in 2008 too.

You'd have to say Dwight Howard in 2009 was > Kobe too..

You'd have to say Chris Paul in damn near every year of his peak/prime was better than Kobe too..

But you know you cant take it that far.. because it'd make you look retarded. So you're toeing the line.




How can Duncan score a higher rapm and have more impact all year than Kobe in 2008.. but then we see duncan get waxed head to head? Seems kinda trivial right?

Funny thing is It would have been more of the same in 2007 if Kobe had a team comparable to Duncans.. Duncan wouldve outproduced him all year long, and wouldve gotten his shit stuffed when they met, just like he did in 2008. And then of course you'd look silly.

But I'm not beholden to it solely....It's just agreeing with my own opinion.

I don't solely use RAPM...never have...never will.

You are making the claim that Kobe was hands down the best player in 06 and 07...and I'm refuting that claim.

I can do that many ways....and have. One bit of evidence on my side is that Kobe isn't as high as some of the players I thought were better in RAPM.

You see the difference?

You keep acting like I didn't think this at the time. I used to argue with people that I'd rather have Duncan or Kobe/Dirk (that was a big debate back then actually around me) because Duncan was so dominant on defense. I didn't even ****ing know what RAPM was back in 06 and 07...

So...yea...you are dead wrong as usual.

And generally, just so you know, when you make a strong claim like you have...you have to actually support said claim with evidence...that if the claim were true...would be there.

Like when someone says Lebron was the best player in 09...Lebron having by far the highest RAPM combined with his dominant playoff play and virtually all objective measures showing him to be the best player that year....

They have that as evidence.

Does it mean everything? Of course not...but at least the claim they are making is actually supported by more than just the opinion of the person making the claim.

If for example, someone were to make the claim that Kobe was the best player in 09...one would have far less objective evidence than the person making the claim that Lebron was.

That doesn't mean Lebron was in fact for sure better...it just means that it's a valid opinion to have that is backed by evidence.

Because you have very little evidence for your claim....you lose the right to dismiss others.

You might be right...I don't think this is an exact science by any means...but what it does mean is that you should not be saying things about Kobe being hands down the best player each year in question because you can't support it.

now, you say it determines empty stats from real impact. I agree with this to some extent, but the difference between rapm numbers is still the difference. So if one player is 4 points better...he's 4 points better....doesn't matter if it's from 9 to 5 or 2 to -2....it's the same thing.

So...you are kind of caught, once again, here in your line of thinking.

Take a look at this.

In 2007...Duncan had an 8.8 rapm and Kobe had a 5.5 rapm...a difference of 3.3
In 2011...Rose had a 2.2 rapm and Ellis in 14 had a -.62 rapm...a difference of 2.83

My entire argument about Rose and Ellis was that it was the situations that mattered. Which is why when Ellis got into a good situation...his advanced numbers improved. It wasn't nearly as good of a situation as the 11 Bulls would have been for him as that was the ideal team for a shoot first gunner point guard as we all know.

But look what you open yourself up to here. You claim that the difference between Rose and Ellis is enough to claim empty stats vs real impact...but then claim it's nowhere near that with Duncan and Kobe. And worse, the difference between Duncan and Kobe the year in question is bigger than the difference between Rose and Ellis.

Now, the reason I'm not beholden to this stat as much more than just double checking my own ideas....is that it can't get outside itself. It still is going to be based on the role/team a player is in because that is all the data it can work from. It tries to equate for everything and it does a great job...or at least better than anything else for accounting for differences in help and competition, but it's still impacted by the circumstances players find themselves in.

I would never claim that the huge difference between Duncan and Kobe in 07 is indicative of a huge difference between the two players. But if you were consistent and honest...you'd have to based on what you've said before.

At some point there has to be a coming to Jesus moment for Kobe fans.

We say his defense is over-rated...we point to real data and measures that agree with us
We say he wasn't the "hands down" best player in the game during that stretch...we point to real data and measures that agree with us
We say he isn't the best game winning shot maker....we point to real data and measures that agree with us
We say he isn't very good on the brink of elimination....we point to real data and measures that agree with us

Like...at some point don't you want your views to conform to reality? If Kobe was so easily the best player during that time...why don't any of the objective measures tell us that? Why don't they line up?

Why doesn't Kobe have a season where he destroyed the league and it shows up in the data like Lebron in 09?

You really think it's because I and others and the data are biased towards Kobe? Or do you think it's probably that you guys are a bit too biased watching your favorite player play and only remembering all the good things he did?

Which one do you really think is more likely?

[DMAVS41]

gotta love Kobe hater logic in this thread

Wade best player 06 because of playoffs (ignores Kobe's historical season)

Wade best player in 09 because of regular season (ignores Kobe's 30/6/6 run to the championship)

Duncan literally has no argument at being better than Kobe in the 2007 regular season, solely basing that off of playoffs, but then 09 and 10 we just ignore playoffs, ignore that Kobe had the only 30/6/6 run to the finals since Jordan,,

embarrassing watching them have to move the goal post to be honest


It might be the fact that Wade had an amazing regular season that you seem to dismiss for no reason.

Again...you clowns dismiss a great defensive Wade in 06 that also happened to put up 27/6/7 on 58% TS....while stepping up his play in the playoffs and having a historical finals.

You make it sound like he did nothing in the regular season. Again...the numbers favor Wade here.

Take the L

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Mourning interview:
Dan asked Zo, Who is the best player in the NBA today?

Zo: "Kobe Bryant cuz he's the most talented player in the game today and he could do anything"

Dan: What does Kobe do better than Wade?

Zo: "Ahhh there pretty close but, Kobe is a better scorer, a better shooter than Wade, but Wade is close to Kobe, but Kobe is the best right now and i think he deserved the MVP.

Dan: Why did Kobe deserve the MVP and not Steve Nash?

Zo: "Did you see what Kobe was doing for his team? Now they call it the Most Valuable Player for his team and your telling what Kobe did for that team this year was not the most valuable out of all the players? Kobe deserved the MVP that kid did it all, there is no way the things he did and what he did for that specific team that he didn't deserve the MVP"

I had forgotten about this. Pretty telling that your own teammate, and one of the best players in franchise history, says that a rival sg is better and should've been MVP.

When guaging the best players, I go off stats and the eye test, so in that respect, I agree with Zo. Kobe was phenomenal and to me, had the strongest case for best player those 3 years.

Welcome back, by the way :cheers:

[TheMarkMadsen]

It might be the fact that Wade had an amazing regular season that you seem to dismiss for no reason.

Again...you clowns dismiss a great defensive Wade in 06 that also happened to put up 27/6/7 on 58% TS....while stepping up his play in the playoffs and having a historical finals.

You make it sound like he did nothing in the regular season. Again...the numbers favor Wade here.

Take the L

again you just completely ignore Kobe's historic regular seasons and 30/6/6 b2b championship runs whenever its convenient

your logic in this thread looks like a fish out of water.. just flopping around..

tpols is destroying you, no need for me to even get into this with you.. your logical flaws have been pointed out time and time again in this thread..

[red1]

*06-08

[DMAVS41]

again you just completely ignore Kobe's historic regular seasons and 30/6/6 b2b championship runs whenever its convenient

your logic in this thread looks like a fish out of water.. just flopping around..

tpols is destroying you, no need for me to even get into this with you.. your logical flaws have been pointed out time and time again in this thread..

Ignore it?

I just thought Lebron was better.

How is that ignoring it.

Again...you and tpols are getting destroyed and your logical flaws have been pointed out.

You are the ones taking Kobe in 06 and 07....and then in 09 and 10. That doesn't work because you can't have it both ways.

I can take Wade in 06 and Lebron in 09, for example, because my conclusion isn't based on team success.

Let me make this clear.

I ask why Kobe was better than Wade in 06 and you'll talk about his historic regular season (even though it wasn't any more impactful than Wade, Dirk, Duncan...but we can table that for now and assume it was) and say it was Kobe's team holding him back...etc. And you'll ignore Wade's great playoffs.

When I ask why Kobe was better than Lebron in 09...you'll talk about his playoffs and team success....as it was Lebron that had the "historic" regular season that was clearly better than Kobe's.

You see the logical flaw? You change your tune to fit your agenda.


I'm actually not doing that. I'm just going with who I thought the best player was and supporting it with some evidence and not contradicting myself like you guys are.

[Wade's Rings]

02

When has Kobe ever anchored a defense? lol when has Wade ever averaged 2 steals and 2 blocks per game during a championship run like Kobe did at age 21?

Kobe has never averaged 2 blocks in the Playoffs :oldlol:

It's not only Steals and Blocks that count as anchoring a Defense.

Wade in 2009 was used to protect the rim at times, altered shots, excellent man defense, strips, forcing kick outs, etc.

He had other excellent defensive years but 09 is his best example.

[DMAVS41]

Just a simple question.

Do you Kobe fans think it is an outlandish opinion to say Wade and or Duncan were better than Kobe in 06? If so, like how absurd....

Like...is the gap between Lebron and Curry smaller or bigger than the gap between Kobe and Wade/Duncan in 06?

[Jacks3]

Yes, 09 Wade "anchored" a league-average defense. Incredible. :bowdown:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Just a simple question.

Do you Kobe fans think it is an outlandish opinion to say Wade and or Duncan were better than Kobe in 06? If so, like how absurd....

Like...is the gap between Lebron and Curry smaller or bigger than the gap between Kobe and Wade/Duncan in 06?
Won't speak for Kobe fans, but you could argue both, especially Wade. I just think Kobe really made his bones w/ the individual play in the regular season, carrying a bunch of scrubs in a tougher conference (the quote from Mourning said it all), and playing well in the postseason outside of the 2nd half of a controversial Game 7.

Same thing with 07, and to a lesser extent 2008.

[Wade's Rings]

Yes, 09 Wade "anchored" a league-average defense. Incredible. :bowdown:

5th Best Defense in 2010 :bowdown:

[DMAVS41]

Won't speak for Kobe fans, but you could argue both, especially Wade. I just think Kobe really made his bones w/ the individual play in the regular season, carrying a bunch of scrubs in a tougher conference (the quote from Mourning said it all), and playing well in the postseason outside of the 2nd half of a controversial Game 7.

Same thing with 07, and to a lesser extent 2008.


I think "playing well" is a fair statement for his playoffs. Not bad by any means, but not dominant by any means at all.

In order to be "hands down" the best player...I think I'd like to see a bit more separation than that...especially in the games that matter most.

Wouldn't you agree that Duncan and Wade were better in the playoffs?

And I know it's crazy to say on here because everyone is so in love with Kobe's season, but I really think a non emotional look at the regular seasons of Dirk, Duncan, and Wade show a very similar level of impact.

And...if Kobe is the best in 06...wouldn't you then agree one must then award Lebron the best in 09.

[King Jane]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-obpNp5gieFw/VWpeEcZSsfI/AAAAAAAAGXc/Yc1aj1gpvGg/s640/kobee.jpg

2003 the year of king kongbe

[Ne 1]

I suppose including the playoffs, a case could be made for Wade in '06 in hindsight but the general consensus was that Kobe was the best player in the game. He put up an individual season for the ages. Over 35 points per game, 81 points in a game, 62 in three quarters while outscoring the eventual Western Conference Champs through 3 quarters and most importantly, almost everyone agreed that the Lakers overachieved. He carried that team to a surprising 45 win season, the 6th seed and in the playoffs, he played team-oriented basketball while leading the Lakerd to a 3-1 series lead vs Phoenix. He did everything in his power to end the series in game 6 with a 50 point game that came in the flow of the offense, but Tim Thomas' miraculous 3s gave Phoenix the win. Kobe also had a game-winner in game 4. It's not just the unbelievable historic individual feats, it's that his team overachieved. Phil asked Kobe to carry the team until they learned the triangle, and they ended up with 45 wins in a stacked conference despite that, and not much of a cast outside of Lamar Odom who was was inconsistent and didn't play like an all-star caliber player until the second half)

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe has never averaged 2 blocks in the Playoffs :oldlol:

It's not only Steals and Blocks that count as anchoring a Defense.

Wade in 2009 was used to protect the rim at times, altered shots, excellent man defense, strips, forcing kick outs, etc.

He had other excellent defensive years but 09 is his best example.

2000 averaged 1.5 steals 1.5 blocks per game through the playoffs..

including a WCF where her averaged more steals and blocks than MDE Shaq per game.. including 4 blocks in game 7..

why do you keep bringing up shit you have no idea about? You didn't even know Kobe had finished 3rd in DPOY voting before..?

[dubeta]

On a side note, how is Kobe even better than LeBron in 2006? LeBron put up better stats than Kobe, AND went further in the playoffs, literally no argument over even LeBron that year.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I think "playing well" is a fair statement for his playoffs. Not bad by any means, but not dominant by any means at all.

In order to be "hands down" the best player...I think I'd like to see a bit more separation than that...especially in the games that matter most.

Yeah, he wasn't "hands down" by any means. Its kinda like Kobe in 08 vs CP and KG. He wasn't on another tier or anything, but I think dude made it clear he was the best player.

Does that make sense?


Wouldn't you agree that Duncan and Wade were better in the playoffs?

Some of that had to do w/ each players' help. It gets dicey when we delve deeper into these comparisons, but ya, in the end, I would agree they did play better.


And...if Kobe is the best in 06...wouldn't you then agree one must then award Lebron the best in 09.

Not necessarily, but I also agree that LeBron had a stronger case for best player that year. Wade was fantastic as well.

[DMAVS41]

I suppose including the playoffs, a case could be made for Wade in '06 in hindsight but the general consensus was that Kobe was the best player in the game. He put up an individual season for the ages. Over 35 points per game, 81 points in a game, 62 in three quarters while outscoring the eventual Western Conference Champs through 3 quarters and most importantly, almost everyone agreed that the Lakers overachieved. He carried that team to a surprising 45 win season, the 6th seed and in the playoffs, he played team-oriented basketball while leading the Lakerd to a 3-1 series lead vs Phoenix. He did everything in his power to end the series in game 6 with a 50 point game that came in the flow of the offense, but Tim Thomas' miraculous 3s gave Phoenix the win. Kobe also had a game-winner in game 4. It's not just the unbelievable historic individual feats, it's that his team overachieved. Phil asked Kobe to carry the team until they learned the triangle, and they ended up with 45 wins in a stacked conference despite that, and not much of a cast outside of Lamar Odom who was was inconsistent and didn't play like an all-star caliber player until the second half)


And how much better was Lebron's team that year though? I mean...Odom was definitely better than anyone Lebron had. Lebron had a much worse coach.

Yea, Lebron played in the East, but he did lead his team to 5 more wins....

I just think your argument is a very slippery slope...especially when Lebron did 31/7/7 in the regular season and 31/8/6 in the playoffs.

Like...I need this stuff quantified. How much better was Lebron's team? How many wins does Kobe get in the East. A 5 game difference isn't nothing....I mean...I doubt Kobe is winning more than 5 or so more games playing in the East...that is actually a lot.

I mean...I just think it's a slippery slope to argue it that way...and it's not really a knock on Kobe like I've said.

Other guys did crazy great things that year overall as well.

[Wade's Rings]

I suppose including the playoffs, a case could be made for Wade in '06 in hindsight but the general consensus was that Kobe was the best player in the game. He put up an individual season for the ages. Over 35 points per game, 81 points in a game, 62 in three quarters while outscoring the eventual Western Conference Champs through 3 quarters and most importantly, almost everyone agreed that the Lakers overachieved. He carried that team to a surprising 45 win season, the 6th seed and in the playoffs, he played team-oriented basketball while leading the Lakerd to a 3-1 series lead vs Phoenix. He did everything in his power to end the series in game 6 with a 50 point game that came in the flow of the offense, but Tim Thomas' miraculous 3s gave Phoenix the win. Kobe also had a game-winner in game 4. It's not just the unbelievable historic individual feats, it's that his team overachieved. Phil asked Kobe to carry the team until they learned the triangle, and they ended up with 45 wins in a stacked conference despite that, and not much of a cast outside of Lamar Odom who was was inconsistent and didn't play like an all-star caliber player until the second half)

Then why not give Wade 2009 given his individual accomplishments?

[dubeta]

On a side note, how is Kobe even better than LeBron in 2006? LeBron put up better stats than Kobe, AND went further in the playoffs, literally no argument over even LeBron that year.

LOL no one can answer this, I destroyed the Kobe 'best player in 2006' myth :applause:

[DMAVS41]

Then why not give Wade 2009 given his individual accomplishments?

that is what i'm curious about as well.

take lebron...he leads that team to 66 wins and then plays that well in the playoffs?

and we are supposed to say Kobe was better....and not ignore the logical contradiction when people take Kobe over Wade in 06?

you can't have it both ways

[ArbitraryWater]

People still yapping about Kobe's 35 ppg when scoring was clearly inflated league wide in 2006... most 24 ppg scorers of all time (or 23), Iverson himself had 33 ppg on a mediocre team, LeBron James at 21 years old averaged his career high 31.4 ppg....

as far as the playoffs go, Wade/Dirk/Duncan/Bron all had better runs.

Bron actually was a few plays away in game 6 from outing the Pistons and moving on to the ECF.. instead he played game 7, where his teammates went a combined 9 of 41 22%........

[Wade's Rings]

2000 averaged 1.5 steals 1.5 blocks per game through the playoffs..

including a WCF where her averaged more steals and blocks than MDE Shaq per game.. including 4 blocks in game 7..

why do you keep bringing up shit you have no idea about? You didn't even know Kobe had finished 3rd in DPOY voting before..?

That's still not 2 blocks. Of it was 1.7 or higher that makes sense. Wade averaged 1.5 in 2010, I don't credit it as 2.

Shaq wasn't known for Blocks(Gotta give Kobe credit doe) and guards tend to average more steals than Big Men. He got more blocks than Shaq in 1 Game...ok.

I was wrong about Kobe being 3rd in DPOY voting, I admit that.

You still haven't proven shit. Bringing up Steals and Blocks strictly as if Wade hasn't had multiple Games with 3+ Blocks and 3+ Steals. Wade had 4 Steals & 3 Blocks in Game 6 of the 2006 Finals...it's 1 Game. Wade was doing this for an entire Season.

Again, Wade was altering shots, shutting down players, protecting the rim, forcing kickouts, etc. That's anchoring the Defense over 79 Games not 7.

[Wade's Rings]

that is what i'm curious about as well.

take lebron...he leads that team to 66 wins and then plays that well in the playoffs?

and we are supposed to say Kobe was better....and not ignore the logical contradiction when people take Kobe over Wade in 06?

you can't have it both ways

Agreed :cheers:

[RRR3]

That's still not 2 blocks. Of it was 1.7 or higher that makes sense. Wade averaged 1.5 in 2010, I don't credit it as 2.

Shaq wasn't known for Blocks(Gotta give Kobe credit doe) and guards tend to average more steals than Big Men. He got more blocks than Shaq in 1 Game...ok.

I was wrong about Kobe being 3rd in DPOY voting, I admit that.

You still haven't proven shit. Bringing up Steals and Blocks strictly as if Wade hasn't had multiple Games with 3+ Blocks and 3+ Steals. Wade had 4 Steals & 3 Blocks in Game 6 of the 2006 Finals...it's 1 Game. Wade was doing this for an entire Season.

Again, Wade was altering shots, shutting down players, protecting the rim, forcing kickouts, etc. That's anchoring the Defense over 79 Games not 7.
:biggums:

Shaq averaged 2.3 BPG for his career
(15th in NBA history), has the 8th most career blocks in NBA history, led the playoffs in BPG twice and in total blocks 4 times, finished top 10 in the NBA in blocks 8 times, finished top 10 in the NBA in BPG 12 times (including 3 years in the top 3), but he "wasn't known for blocks" :biggums: :facepalm

[Magic 32]

Kobe did not care if 09-10 was "his" era.

He just wanted to fresh for the playoffs and win.

Had he played on a great team and won in 2006 and 2007, he might have been awarded 2009 and 2010 like Lebron is being award 2014 and 2015 (dispite not being the best for the entire seasons).

[AirFederer]

Great post! :applause:



But I'm not beholden to it solely....It's just agreeing with my own opinion.

I don't solely use RAPM...never have...never will.

You are making the claim that Kobe was hands down the best player in 06 and 07...and I'm refuting that claim.

I can do that many ways....and have. One bit of evidence on my side is that Kobe isn't as high as some of the players I thought were better in RAPM.

You see the difference?

You keep acting like I didn't think this at the time. I used to argue with people that I'd rather have Duncan or Kobe/Dirk (that was a big debate back then actually around me) because Duncan was so dominant on defense. I didn't even ****ing know what RAPM was back in 06 and 07...

So...yea...you are dead wrong as usual.

And generally, just so you know, when you make a strong claim like you have...you have to actually support said claim with evidence...that if the claim were true...would be there.

Like when someone says Lebron was the best player in 09...Lebron having by far the highest RAPM combined with his dominant playoff play and virtually all objective measures showing him to be the best player that year....

They have that as evidence.

Does it mean everything? Of course not...but at least the claim they are making is actually supported by more than just the opinion of the person making the claim.

If for example, someone were to make the claim that Kobe was the best player in 09...one would have far less objective evidence than the person making the claim that Lebron was.

That doesn't mean Lebron was in fact for sure better...it just means that it's a valid opinion to have that is backed by evidence.

Because you have very little evidence for your claim....you lose the right to dismiss others.

You might be right...I don't think this is an exact science by any means...but what it does mean is that you should not be saying things about Kobe being hands down the best player each year in question because you can't support it.

now, you say it determines empty stats from real impact. I agree with this to some extent, but the difference between rapm numbers is still the difference. So if one player is 4 points better...he's 4 points better....doesn't matter if it's from 9 to 5 or 2 to -2....it's the same thing.

So...you are kind of caught, once again, here in your line of thinking.

Take a look at this.

In 2007...Duncan had an 8.8 rapm and Kobe had a 5.5 rapm...a difference of 3.3
In 2011...Rose had a 2.2 rapm and Ellis in 14 had a -.62 rapm...a difference of 2.83

My entire argument about Rose and Ellis was that it was the situations that mattered. Which is why when Ellis got into a good situation...his advanced numbers improved. It wasn't nearly as good of a situation as the 11 Bulls would have been for him as that was the ideal team for a shoot first gunner point guard as we all know.

But look what you open yourself up to here. You claim that the difference between Rose and Ellis is enough to claim empty stats vs real impact...but then claim it's nowhere near that with Duncan and Kobe. And worse, the difference between Duncan and Kobe the year in question is bigger than the difference between Rose and Ellis.

Now, the reason I'm not beholden to this stat as much more than just double checking my own ideas....is that it can't get outside itself. It still is going to be based on the role/team a player is in because that is all the data it can work from. It tries to equate for everything and it does a great job...or at least better than anything else for accounting for differences in help and competition, but it's still impacted by the circumstances players find themselves in.

I would never claim that the huge difference between Duncan and Kobe in 07 is indicative of a huge difference between the two players. But if you were consistent and honest...you'd have to based on what you've said before.

At some point there has to be a coming to Jesus moment for Kobe fans.

We say his defense is over-rated...we point to real data and measures that agree with us
We say he wasn't the "hands down" best player in the game during that stretch...we point to real data and measures that agree with us
We say he isn't the best game winning shot maker....we point to real data and measures that agree with us
We say he isn't very good on the brink of elimination....we point to real data and measures that agree with us

Like...at some point don't you want your views to conform to reality? If Kobe was so easily the best player during that time...why don't any of the objective measures tell us that? Why don't they line up?

Why doesn't Kobe have a season where he destroyed the league and it shows up in the data like Lebron in 09?

You really think it's because I and others and the data are biased towards Kobe? Or do you think it's probably that you guys are a bit too biased watching your favorite player play and only remembering all the good things he did?

Which one do you really think is more likely?

[Hey Yo]

The sad thing is we'll never know now how far that 2010 Cavs team could have gone because of the odd turn of events after Game 3 against Boston with LeBron visibly pouting/quitting.

They were up 2-1 and if LeBron played even close to his usual level, the Cavs in all likelihood win the series. The Celtics deserve some credit, but LeBron just seemed off and he played like garbage in the last 3 games. He just didn't seem like himself at all. I don't know if he was looking towards the summer joining Miami, or if the Delonte rumor was true, but he really looked visibly distracted.
If putting up 27-19 and 10 in a must win game is garbage, then what do you call Kobe's game 7 in 2010 against Boston?

[MEB2kDeez]

If putting up 27-19 and 10 in a must win game is garbage, then what do you call Kobe's game 7 in 2010 against Boston?
Championship celebration :confusedshrug:

[Ne 1]

If putting up 27-19 and 10 in a must win game is garbage, then what do you call Kobe's game 7 in 2010 against Boston?
If you sit down and actually watch that game it's the most empty tripe double you'll see. Sure the stats look nice on paper but he was padding them. Not to mention he had 9 turnovers and shot 38% from field and he didn't even bother fouling in the last minute even though the Cavs were only down by single digits. Just mind boggling how a heavily favored team that dominated the regular season are up 2-1, then lose the next the next 3 games with Lebron averaging 34% shooting with 8 assists to 6 turnovers a game, and the Cavs go 0-3 and get sent home.

[Hey Yo]

If you sit down and actually watch that game it's the most empty tripe double you'll see. Sure the stats look nice on paper but he was padding them. Not to mention he had 9 turnovers and shot 38% from field and he didn't even bother fouling in the last minute even though the Cavs were only down by single digits. Just mind boggling how a heavily favored team that dominated the regular season are up 2-1, then lose the next the next 3 games with Lebron averaging 34% shooting with 8 assists to 6 turnovers a game, and the Cavs go 0-3 and get sent home.
The Cavs down by 10 early in the 4th and James hits B2B 3pt shots to bring them within 4. That's stat padding? 19 boards with 6 coming in the 4th quarter is stat padding?? GTFO with that nonsense.

LeBron didn't shoot great the entire series, but isn't this the part where I say how great Boston's defense was?? Like Kobe stans resort to when referring to the 2010 Finals?

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Wade went through the 3 of the Top 6 Defenses in his Conference. Conference wasn't great though but still facing the best Defenses.

Can we please stop with the Refs BS. Kobe had a series shooting 16 FTA per Game vs the Jazz. In Game 5(Series 2-2) the Jazz were up and a series of calls turned the momentum in the Lakers favor. Jazz go down 2-3 instead of potentially going up 3-2.
Had another series shooting 15 FTA per game vs the Kings.

If we're talking refs help, please explain what Game 6 of the 2002 Conference Finals was? Or the 4th quarter of Game 7 vs the Celtics in 2010?

Kobe stans always bring up the refs while their favorite player plays for the Lakers. David Stern said his perfect Finals would be Lakers vs Lakers but Wade only won because of the "refs".

The hilarious thing is if you discount those three rigged series for Kobe, he ends up with 3 rings and 1 FMVP...the same as Wade.

:eek:

[riseagainst]

http://i.imgur.com/VYK6Z7q.gif

[Ne 1]

people take Kobe over Wade in 06?


Maybe because Kobe was a significantly better scorer, a better offensive player overall and still the better defender at that point. Not many people at all in 2006 thought Wade was actually as good as Bryant yet and for good reason.

It's just that Kobe's play that year was simply beyond everyone else. 35.4 ppg for a whole season is ridiculous. Phil asked Kobe to carry the offense on his back until the the young, and not very talented team around him learned the triangle, and he did so at a level beyond what anyone could have hoped for. Opponents knew he was going out there looking to drop 40-50 and they still couldn't stop him.

Once Odom finally played consistent ball in the second half of the season, the Lakers finished 19-11, a 52 win pace. Meanwhile, Kobe was still playing off the charts with averages of 36/5/5 on 46/36/87 shooting during that second half.

[ArbitraryWater]

Maybe because Kobe was a significantly better scorer, a better offensive player overall and still the better defender at that point. Not many people at all in 2006 thought Wade was actually as good as Bryant yet and for good reason.

It's just that Kobe's play that year was simply beyond everyone else. 35.4 ppg for a whole season is ridiculous. Phil asked Kobe to carry the offense on his back until the the young, and not very talented team around him learned the triangle, and he did so at a level beyond what anyone could have hoped for. Opponents knew he was going out there looking to drop 40-50 and they still couldn't stop him.

Once Odom finally played consistent ball in the second half of the season, the Lakers finished 19-11, a 52 win pace. Meanwhile, Kobe was still playing off the charts with averages of 36/5/5 on 46/36/87 shooting during that second half.

35 ppg so ridiculous!!

Iverson averages 33 the same year, not even a top 6 player :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Wade's Rings]

Maybe because Kobe was a significantly better scorer, a better offensive player overall and still the better defender at that point. Not many people at all in 2006 thought Wade was actually as good as Bryant yet and for good reason.

It's just that Kobe's play that year was simply beyond everyone else. 35.4 ppg for a whole season is ridiculous. Phil asked Kobe to carry the offense on his back until the the young, and not very talented team around him learned the triangle, and he did so at a level beyond what anyone could have hoped for. Opponents knew he was going out there looking to drop 40-50 and they still couldn't stop him.

Once Odom finally played consistent ball in the second half of the season, the Lakers finished 19-11, a 52 win pace. Meanwhile, Kobe was still playing off the charts with averages of 36/5/5 on 46/36/87 shooting during that second half.

So why isn't Wade better than Kobe in 2009 or even 2010?

Edit: Kobe's Defense slipped during those years, Phil even said it.

Kobe was the better scorer but Wade averaged 7 assists. 35/5 vs 27/7 I don't see how Kobe was the better Offensive Player.

AI averaged 33 and Bron 31. Kobe was impressive but other players scored.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

35 ppg so ridiculous!!

Iverson averages 33 the same year, not even a top 6 player :roll: :roll: :roll:
Context.

81 point game (most points in modern history), 62 points vs WCF champs in 3 quarters (outscored entire team), averaged 40ppg for a month (January), four 50 point games, four straight 40 point games, and a 50 point elimination game in the postseason.

Calling Kobe the games best scorer that year is a HUGE under-statement. Easily one of the greatest scoring exhibitions from a perimeter player....ever

[ArbitraryWater]

Context.

81 point game (most points in modern history), 62 points vs WCF champs in 3 quarters (outscored entire team), averaged 40ppg for a month (January), four 50 point games, four straight 40 point games, and a 50 point game in an elimination game.

Calling Kobe the games best scorer that season is an under-statement. That was one of the greatest scoring exhibitions from a perimeter player....ever

In a year with inflated scoring... and the most 24+ ppg scorers EVER (12 players scored 24+ points)... a 3rd-year LeBron averaging 31.4 ppg... Iverson 33.. (you seriously picking out individual games now?)

How is any of what you just posted context? Do you believe thats what one calls context? Listing games straight out of the 35.4 ppg average?

Like it having the most 24+ ppg scorers ever isn't context? Iverson with 33/5/5 in a year where he wasn't near his peak?

[DMAVS41]

Maybe because Kobe was a significantly better scorer, a better offensive player overall and still the better defender at that point. Not many people at all in 2006 thought Wade was actually as good as Bryant yet and for good reason.

It's just that Kobe's play that year was simply beyond everyone else. 35.4 ppg for a whole season is ridiculous. Phil asked Kobe to carry the offense on his back until the the young, and not very talented team around him learned the triangle, and he did so at a level beyond what anyone could have hoped for. Opponents knew he was going out there looking to drop 40-50 and they still couldn't stop him.

Once Odom finally played consistent ball in the second half of the season, the Lakers finished 19-11, a 52 win pace. Meanwhile, Kobe was still playing off the charts with averages of 36/5/5 on 46/36/87 shooting during that second half.

A few things:

1. I did prefer Wade to Kobe at the time. Preferred Duncan and Dirk as well. And KG seems to get lost here even though he was also a monster.

2. If the "not many people thought x at the time" is such a strong argument...then the contradiction stands. Not many people thought Kobe was as good as Lebron in 09 and 10. So on your own criteria you'd have to give Lebron the nod.

3. The 35 ppg was impressive, but we need to stop acting like everyone else was way behind. Iverson averaged 33 a game. Lebron averaged 31 a game. Kobe was not "simply beyond everyone else"...at least not in my opinion and stating that as if it means something because you say it is silly. Where is your evidence for this? Beyond everyone else...why doesn't it show up in anything other than subjective measures?

Please provide the evidence for why Kobe was "beyond everyone else" that season.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

In a year with inflated scoring... and the most 24+ ppg scorers EVER (12 players scored 24+ points)... a 3rd-year LeBron averaging 31.4 ppg... Iverson 33.. (you seriously picking out individual games now?)
Yes, its called perspective.

Are you suggesting that it wasn't one of the greatest scoring seasons ever? :confusedshrug:

[ArbitraryWater]

Imma do the kuniva...

Kobe shot 5 for 22 against the Mavs on February 7... CONTEXT DOE!

[DMAVS41]

Imma do the kuniva...

Kobe shot 5 for 22 against the Mavs on February 7... CONTEXT DOE!

He also failed to score over 30 in 6 of his 7 playoff games that year.

Honestly...that is the real revisionist history going on. Kobe fans acting like Kobe's play in the playoffs wasn't a let down given his scoring dominance all year.

A 7 of 21 game and a 6 of 18 game....then a no show in the 2nd half of a game 7.

A lot easier to get shit done against teams in the regular season.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Imma do the kuniva...

Kobe shot 5 for 22 against the Mavs on February 7... CONTEXT DOE!
Are you high?

Save for Wilt, nobody has ever averaged 40ppg in one month. How is what your wrote even close to the same thing?

[Wade's Rings]

He also failed to score over 30 in 6 of his 7 playoff games that year.

Honestly...that is the real revisionist history going on. Kobe fans acting like Kobe's play in the playoffs wasn't a let down given his scoring dominance all year.

A 7 of 21 game and a 6 of 18 game....then a no show in the 2nd half of a game 7.

A lot easier to get shit done against teams in the regular season.

Plus the Suns weren't the Best Defensive Team. Given his scoring that year he should've averaged 30-33.

[ArbitraryWater]

Are you high?

Save for Wilt, nobody has ever averaged 40ppg in one month. How is what your wrote even close to the same thing?

Thats awesome.. a few have come close, and I'll guarantee that anyone taking 30 shots a month will come close, especially in 2006. You're overreacting to it.

And honestly, Kobe should have beaten that Suns team (minus Stoudemire).. most ATG's at their peak would have.. for his peak, thats an underwhelming playoff run.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Thats awesome.. a few have come close, and I'll guarantee that anyone taking 30 shots a month will come close, especially in 2006. You're overreacting to it.
I think it's an awesome feat. One month ~14 games averaging 43/5/4 on 47/90/40 is pretty ****ing good. Unheard of stuff in the modern era.

Not sure what Kobe's scoring season for the ages has you so uptight about. I'm giving dude his props :confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And honestly, Kobe should have beaten that Suns team (minus Stoudemire).. most ATG's at their peak would have.. for his peak, thats an underwhelming playoff run.

Most ATG perimeter players? Meh.. don't think so. But I could be wrong.

[Doranku]

Thats awesome.. a few have come close, and I'll guarantee that anyone taking 30 shots a month will come close, especially in 2006. You're overreacting to it.

And honestly, Kobe should have beaten that Suns team (minus Stoudemire).. most ATG's at their peak would have.. for his peak, thats an underwhelming playoff run.

You realize Kobe had a 40 ppg month in 2003 which was one of the toughest eras defensively, right?

[ArbitraryWater]

You realize Kobe had a 40 ppg month in 2003 which was one of the toughest eras defensively, right?

I don't see the connection? Also I don't see it as one of toughest eras, lol. More like watered down, early 00's...

[chazzy]

I don't see the connection? Also I don't see it as one of toughest eras, lol. More like watered down, early 00's...
Defenses were elite from 98-04. Of course you don't see it as one of the toughest eras because you didn't SEE it, newb fan

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don't see the connection? Also I don't see it as one of toughest eras, lol. More like watered down, early 00's...
If the early 2000s were "watered down", then so is today's era where defenses are an absolute joke.

"early 2000s = weak"; "mid 2000s = weak" ... LeBron fans' agenda always shining through. :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Defenses were elite from 98-04. Of course you don't see it as one of the toughest eras because you didn't SEE it, newb fan

Actually, according to DEFENSIVE STATISTICS those years were good defensively.. low scoring all-around. Yes I didn't see it, congrats on connecting those dots, Sherlock, but I don't see any footage that would have me believe like that being gritty, 'some of the toughest defenses', ever.. just see shitty offenses, chucking, bad shots.

[Doranku]

I don't see the connection? Also I don't see it as one of toughest eras, lol. More like watered down, early 00's...

Watered down, early 00's the Bran stan says :roll:

Only on ISH, folks. Can't make this stuff up.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Actually, according to DEFENSIVE STATISTICS those years were good defensively.. low scoring all-around. Yes I didn't see it, congrats on connecting those dots, Sherlock, but I don't see any footage that would have me believe like that being gritty, 'some of the toughest defenses', ever.. just see shitty offenses, chucking, bad shots.
:roll:

Then why are you in here postulating like ya know what you're talking about? Sit your clown ass down, young foreigner.

[Doranku]

Actually, according to DEFENSIVE STATISTICS those years were good defensively.. low scoring all-around. Yes I didn't see it, congrats on connecting those dots, Sherlock, but I don't see any footage that would have me believe like that being gritty, 'some of the toughest defenses', ever.. just see shitty offenses, chucking, bad shots.

So you didn't see it, but all you see are shitty offenses chucking bad shots?

You're literally retarded.

[ArbitraryWater]

:roll:

Then why are you in here postulating like ya know what you're talking about? Sit your clown ass down, young foreigner.

Murricans doe... can't talk about the shit you never saw live.. hope you don't give your opinion on any World Wars, suddenly you'd be the young foreigner.

[ArbitraryWater]

dude said "literally retarded" after not understanding a simple sentence and trying to turn it into some backfire

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah306/MaleRuler/GIFs/giphy_zps8xi3a7aq.gif

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Murricans doe... can't talk about the shit you never saw live.. hope you don't give your opinion on any World Wars, suddenly you'd be the young foreigner.
Foreigners postulating, acting like they saw an era. You talk a lot of game, but you can't back up your opinions very well.

truth hurts :confusedshrug:

[Legends66NBA7]

If Kobe was given the green light when he entered his prime, he would averaged over 40+ in a month starting in 2001, IMO.

[ArbitraryWater]

The ignorance calling people 'foreigner', though... only Murricans

you literally tried to pass "context" off as listing individual games, months, what not... those are right in the 35.4 ppg, dummie.

[ArbitraryWater]

If the early 2000s were "watered down", then so is today's era where defenses are an absolute joke.

"early 2000s = weak"; "mid 2000s = weak" ... LeBron fans' agenda always shining through. :oldlol:

Its pretty obvious the talent level team wise is at an all time high... a lot of 3's being shot, but with the Hawks/Warriors/Spurs the game is heading towards the TEAM aspect far more than ever, Spurs last year didn't have one Superstar.

Chuck said this season, he doesn't believe he's ever seen the NBA in such a talented top heavy state (Inside the NBA)... I'm a huge Dirk fan, and Dirk himself in the Grantland Video on Nash said, he doesn't see his 2006 and 2007 rosters compete for the title today the way they did back then... try again.

[Ne 1]

So why isn't Wade better than Kobe in 2009 or even 2010?


2009 is debatable. 2006, I just don't see Kobe and Wade as particularly close in the regular season. Despite giving Wade a slight edge over Dirk, I'm even hesitant about that because Dirk's regular season was better and his playoff run prior to the Finals was better. And never for one second did I think Dirk was a better player than Kobe Bryant in 2006. Kobe's advantage as a scorer over Wade in '06 is pretty clear, and same with overall offense despite giving Wade the edge as a playmaker (though Kobe wasn't asked to be as much of one in '06) and defense simply isn't a big factor here, but I still thought Kobe was a bit better than Wade was defensively in '06.

As for 2010, Wade fell off pretty clearly from 2009. His very good mid range jumper from 2009 was gone, he was out of shape and he played less consistent defense and his averages were down. 2010 Kobe was slightly past his prime due to his body and athleticism breaking down. But he was killing guys in the post the first 2 months, especially before Gasol came back and he was my pick for MVP through 2 months. He struggled with injuries from January on, but I give him more of a pass for those off months than Wade whose off months were the result of poor conditioning. After Kobe got his knee drained prior to game 6 vs OKC, he was back to his elite level averaging 31/7/6 on 47 FG%, 52 eFG% and 59 TS% over his final 18 playoff games to win the title. But because both players declined from their 2009 levels, I consider them debatable, just like they were in 2009. Though while I give Wade the edge in 2009, I give Kobe the edge in 2010, but I think you could go with either in both seasons.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The ignorance calling people 'foreigner', though... only Murricans

you literally tried to pass "context" off as listing individual games, months, what not... those are right in the 35.4 ppg, dummie.
Right, my ignorance, yet you're in here talking all high and mighty when you likely were just a stain in your dads underwear.

BTW, how else would you provide context for a year where individual games make up a season? :hammerhead:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Its pretty obvious the talent level team wise is at an all time high... a lot of 3's being shot, but with the Hawks/Warriors/Spurs the game is heading towards the TEAM aspect far more than ever, Spurs last year didn't have one Superstar.

LeBron averaged a damn near triple-double, draining the air outta the ball via possessions just to beat the Hawks.

You are clueless.

[ArbitraryWater]

Right, my ignorance, yet you're in here talking all high and mighty when you likely were just a stain in your dads underwear.

BTW, how else would you provide context for a year where individual games make up a season? :hammerhead:

I dont know, actually talk about the circumstances and not randomly pick out the players' best moments?! Is this really that hard to understand? :oldlol:

cmon, old foreigner.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I dont know, actually talk about the circumstances and not randomly pick out the players' best moments?! Is this really that hard to understand? :oldlol:

cmon, old foreigner.

Or you can save yourself the embarrassment (and trouble) by admitting it was one of the greatest scoring seasons from a perimeter player.

:confusedshrug:

[Doranku]

dude said "literally retarded" after not understanding a simple sentence and trying to turn it into some backfire

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah306/MaleRuler/GIFs/giphy_zps8xi3a7aq.gif

:oldlol: You admitted that you didn't watch the game back then, then went on to generalize and say that the teams YOU'VE NEVER WATCHED ran shitty offenses and chucked bad shots.

I guarantee you've never seen a full basketball game from 2005 or earlier. So drop the charade, we know you don't know anything about '98-04 basketball... or basketball in general, but that's another argument.

[ArbitraryWater]

Or you can save yourself the embarrassment (and trouble) by admitting it was one of the greatest scoring seasons from a perimeter player.

:confusedshrug:

How incredibly detailed... yes, Kobe 2006 was one of the best perimeter scoring seasons ever... right infront of Allen Iverson 2006 :bowdown:

facts are so factual

[ArbitraryWater]

:oldlol: You admitted that you didn't watch the game back then, then went on to generalize and say that the teams YOU'VE NEVER WATCHED ran shitty offenses and chucked bad shots.

I guarantee you've never seen a full basketball game from 2005 or earlier. So drop the charade, we know you don't know anything about '98-04 basketball... or basketball in general, but that's another argument.

Your reading comprehension is pretty fugly for someone that is, wow, not a foreigner... what I said didn't came close to contradicting itself, so stop bolding your shit, Einstein.

[ShawkFactory]

2009 is debatable. 2006, I just don't see Kobe and Wade as particularly close in the regular season. Despite giving Wade a slight edge over Dirk, I'm even hesitant about that because Dirk's regular season was better and his playoff run prior to the Finals was better. And never for one second did I think Dirk was a better player than Kobe Bryant in 2006. Kobe's advantage as a scorer over Wade in '06 is pretty clear, and same with overall offense despite giving Wade the edge as a playmaker (though Kobe wasn't asked to be as much of one in '06) and defense simply isn't a big factor here, but I still thought Kobe was a bit better than Wade was defensively in '06.

As for 2010, Wade fell off pretty clearly from 2009. His very good mid range jumper from 2009 was gone, he was out of shape and he played less consistent defense and his averages were down. 2010 Kobe was slightly past his prime due to his body and athleticism breaking down. But he was killing guys in the post the first 2 months, especially before Gasol came back and he was my pick for MVP through 2 months. He struggled with injuries from January on, but I give him more of a pass for those off months than Wade whose off months were the result of poor conditioning. After Kobe got his knee drained prior to game 6 vs OKC, he was back to his elite level averaging 31/7/6 on 47 FG%, 52 eFG% and 59 TS% over his final 18 playoff games to win the title. But because both players declined from their 2009 levels, I consider them debatable, just like they were in 2009. Though while I give Wade the edge in 2009, I give Kobe the edge in 2010, but I think you could go with either in both seasons.
Agree with everything. Aside from the fact that I think Dirk was very close with Kobe in 2006. Kobe was the better all-around player probably but Dirk was amazing impact-wise that year. It seemed like every single time the game was close he'd deliver. Plus his efficiency was great. He clearly deserved the MVP over Nash, IMO.

It sucks that Wade's 2009 coincided with Lebron and Kobe's. It was truly a great season that might get overlooked because those two other guys that will be more significant when its all said and done pretty much matched it.

If I had to rank 2009 it would probably go Bron > Wade > Kobe but literally any order would make sense. It was that close.

[riseagainst]

How incredibly detailed... yes, Kobe 2006 was one of the best perimeter scoring seasons ever... right infront of Allen Iverson 2006 :bowdown:

facts are so factual

eh, that was miles ahead of A.I.'s 33 point that year. And comparable to MJ's 37 ppg season and 35 ppg the following season.


A.I.: FTr: .455, TS: 54.3, 33ppg, per 100 possession: 39.7ppg, minutes: 43.1

Kobe: FTr: .377, TS: 55.9, 35.4ppg, per 100 possession: 45.6ppg, minutes: 41.0

MJ (1987): FTr: .427, TS: 56.2, 37.1ppg, per 100 possession: 46.4ppg, minutes: 40.0

MJ(1988): FTr: .430, TS: 60.3, 35.0ppg, per 100 possession: 43.6ppg, minutes: 40.4

look at his freethrow rate. That's ridiculously lower than those other guys'.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm still waiting to hear how spotlighting game-highs, months of play, and consecutive/historical scoring binges is omitting context. :oldlol:


How incredibly detailed... yes, Kobe 2006 was one of the best perimeter scoring seasons ever...

Damn. Was it that hard? See how good it feels to give a guy you hate kudos? You're learning, young foreigner. :cheers:

My next assignment for you is to go back and watch game tape from 98-04, and report back in here with a proper assessment. Rung along now, time is of the essence! :D

[SexSymbol]

ArbitraryWater looking like a complete retard in this thread...

[Doranku]

Your reading comprehension is pretty fugly for someone that is, wow, not a foreigner... what I said didn't came close to contradicting itself, so stop bolding your shit, Einstein.

Holy shit you're delusional. :oldlol:

Just take the L and move on. Stop embarrassing yourself.

[catch24]

Kobe on his last legs, and the hate still runs deep.

ISH acting like Kobe's 2006 season was just another year. :oldlol: This place hasn't changed one bit.

[chazzy]

Kobe wasn't boosted by the rule changes as much as other players, so to dismiss his season because of it is disingenuous. His FT rate was comparable to his 01-04 years. And doing so means you're discrediting guys whose entire careers are post rule changes like Lebron/Wade etc in comparison to previous eras, so...

[Wade's Rings]

2009 is debatable. 2006, I just don't see Kobe and Wade as particularly close in the regular season. Despite giving Wade a slight edge over Dirk, I'm even hesitant about that because Dirk's regular season was better and his playoff run prior to the Finals was better. And never for one second did I think Dirk was a better player than Kobe Bryant in 2006. Kobe's advantage as a scorer over Wade in '06 is pretty clear, and same with overall offense despite giving Wade the edge as a playmaker (though Kobe wasn't asked to be as much of one in '06) and defense simply isn't a big factor here, but I still thought Kobe was a bit better than Wade was defensively in '06.

I just don't see how 2009 is debatable if 2006 isn't. Wade was better across the board statistically. Through the Eye Test his Defense was far superior and what he did carrying that team of scrubs and a rookie coach was crazy.


As for 2010, Wade fell off pretty clearly from 2009. His very good mid range jumper from 2009 was gone, he was out of shape and he played less consistent defense and his averages were down. 2010 Kobe was slightly past his prime due to his body and athleticism breaking down. But he was killing guys in the post the first 2 months, especially before Gasol came back and he was my pick for MVP through 2 months. He struggled with injuries from January on, but I give him more of a pass for those off months than Wade whose off months were the result of poor conditioning. After Kobe got his knee drained prior to game 6 vs OKC, he was back to his elite level averaging 31/7/6 on 47 FG%, 52 eFG% and 59 TS% over his final 18 playoff games to win the title. But because both players declined from their 2009 levels, I consider them debatable, just like they were in 2009. Though while I give Wade the edge in 2009, I give Kobe the edge in 2010, but I think you could go with either in both seasons.

Out of shape? IDK about that but he was clearly less motivated than the year before. That's why his stats took a dip IMO.

[ImKobe]

How incredibly detailed... yes, Kobe 2006 was one of the best perimeter scoring seasons ever... right infront of Allen Iverson 2006 :bowdown:

facts are so factual
http://i.imgur.com/5qrVF0T.jpg

[Wade's Rings]

Kobe wasn't boosted by the rule changes as much as other players, so to dismiss his season because of it is disingenuous. His FT rate was comparable to his 01-04 years. And doing so means you're discrediting guys whose entire careers are post rule changes like Lebron/Wade etc in comparison to previous eras, so...

Wade & Bron played solid their rookie years and Wade was great in the Playoffs that year. It's safe to say they would have managed in the handcheck era.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Kobe wasn't boosted by the rule changes as much as other players, so to dismiss his season because of it is disingenuous. His FT rate was comparable to his 01-04 years. And doing so means you're discrediting guys whose entire careers are post rule changes like Lebron/Wade etc in comparison to previous eras, so...

To be fair when Kobe used to slash a lot in 01-04 years, people who defended him got away with a lot. He used to get hacked sometimes but the ref just didn't see it.