How much would MJ average against Klay Thompson?

[3ball]

.
Considering he averaged 36/6/7 vs. Clyde Drexler in 1992 Finals... and considering these were MJ's career averages against DPOY wing defenders:


MJ vs. DPOY Sidney Moncrief (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=moncrsi01): 31.6 PPG

MJ vs. DPOY Michael Cooper (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376404): 35.1 PPG

MJ vs. DPOY Alvin Robertson (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=roberal01): 34.7 PPG

MJ vs. DPOY Gary Payton (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01): 30.5 PPG

MJ vs. DPOY Dennis Rodman/Joe Dumars (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=rodmade01): 31.8 PPG


I think his averages would depend on what the Bulls NEEDED.. Certainly, if the Bulls were in perpetual danger of getting overwhelmed by the Warrior's offense like they were in the 1993 Finals vs. Phoenix's juggernaut offense, MJ might need to get 41/9/6 again so the Bulls can keep up.

In the 1993 Finals, the Bulls PPG and ORTg was 106.7 and 113.0, which was EXACTLY the same as Phoenix, so the Bulls offense baaarely succeeded in keeping up.. Every ounce of MJ's 41/9/6 was needed.

Of course, in today's game, MJ would face fewer defenders on the strongside due to weakside floor-spreaders that draw defenders away (spacing).. So his numbers would be much higher.. Infact, since 1-defender strongsides are standard in the current era, the entire game would be based around this - MJ vs. 1-defender strongsides, as seen repeatedly in the Atlanta-Cavs series:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570

[Haymaker]

He would toy with Klay with his footwork alone. It would be embarrassing. MJ would trash talk him until Klay pisses his pants.

[scandisk_]

Get A Life 3ball

[Dr Hawk]

35 on 52 FG% at least

[dubeta]

Similar to what he averaged once he finally got a taste of modern defenses (2000- onwards)


20 points on 47% TS

[NumberSix]

Depends on whether you're forced to play man defense or if more sophisticated modern defenses are allowed.

[Dr Hawk]

On a second thought, 38 on 52% at least

[3ball]

.
Michael Jordan FG's on Dennis Rodman


Rim Attack (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10706771&postcount=64)

Pull-Up Jumpshot (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10451496&postcount=44)

Other Jordan FG's on Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10454211&postcount=51)


Top Five


5)

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/0986a07e22b04495db4102d3c4529709.gif



4)

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/7464a3314e5aec5ce037672c12d8c447.gif



3)

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/35edccca0a794c31a98a57e7e58bb748.gif



2)

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/7e73a5105b77725d4d7c47736486d0b9.gif



1)

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Game_Winner_over_Rodman_cdfed0b0df8b81a04f9 cc8608a8e31bb.gif... Game-Winner 1989 ECF Game 3



[SIZE="3"]Jordan's quickness was a big mismatch for forwards, and Rodman was no exception.. And obviously, Rodman is a much better defender than Lebron, so we can only imagine what Jordan would do to the slow-footed Lebron... We already know that Gordon Hayward and many others routinely score 30 on Lebron.

Of course, we all know Lebron's first step is literally nothing (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10770540&postcount=164) compared to Jordan's.
.

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cc9f5bd27abe1cedf21d5f3133957e62.gif


Depends on whether you're forced to play man defense or if more sophisticated modern defenses are allowed.


Today's tactics are only necessary to combat spacing - for example, weakside floor-spreaders draw defenders away from the strongside, which usually leaves the strongside with only 1 or 2 defenders.. Accordingly, defenders that were drawn to the weakside must be flooded BACK OVER to the strongside (strongside flood), so the strongside has more than just 1 or 2 defenders.

But previous eras didn't have spacing.. Defenders stayed on strongside because there were no weakside floor-spreaders to draw them away.. Strongside floods aren't possible if all defenders are already on strongside (see GIF above) .. :confusedshrug:

Btw, it's a fact that Klay would play man-to-man defense on MJ for the entire series, just like he will on JR Smith, Shumpert and Lebron.
.

[DonDadda59]

Depends on whether you're forced to play man defense or if more sophisticated modern defenses are allowed.

The same 'sophisticated' #1 ranked defense that just allowed 2 dimensional ass James Harden to average 28/8/6 on 63% TS? :lol

Can you imagine if MJ was getting the same FTr that the Beard is getting now? 37 PPG easily.

[r0drig0lac]

he average how many points he wanted, and Klay could do nothing to deny it

[JohnMax]

Klay struggled against Harden

[MEB2kDeez]

33 points on 50% shooting at worst

[Sarcastic]

40 ppg on 60%.

[Heavincent]

The same 'sophisticated' #1 ranked defense that just allowed 2 dimensional ass James Harden to average 28/8/6 on 63% TS? :lol

Can you imagine if MJ was getting the same FTr that the Beard is getting now? 37 PPG easily.

And forced him into 13 turnovers and 2/11 shooting in the last game.

Harden was making some tough shots in the other games...nothing to do with the defense really.

[ISHGoat]

Similar to what he averaged once he finally got a taste of modern defenses (2000- onwards)


20 points on 47% TS

great post

everyone average super high numbers pre 99

it was a different era back then, no 3 pt shooting, no spacing

those primitive athletes were playing a different game

[Heavincent]

Also, Iguodala would probably guard Jordan more than Klay.

[DonDadda59]

great post

everyone average super high numbers pre 99

it was a different era back then, no 3 pt shooting, no spacing

those primitive athletes were playing a different game

2006 (right after handchecking was eliminated) says hello :roll:

Now compare the leading scorers', many of them drafted in the mid 90s, scoring pre and post '06.

Then come back here and type that same bullshit with a straight face.

[G0ATbe]

Slightly worse stats than Hardens. His game wouldn't translate well in this era, mostly due to the fact he'd be up against guys who actually match up well with him instead of the slow forwards or short weak SG's he was used to in the 90s. Much tougher era today.

Even Kobe in his teens was shitting on Jordan defensively.

[DonDadda59]

And forced him into 13 turnovers and 2/11 shooting in the last game.

Because he's a world class choke artist. The previous game didn't he have like 45/9/6?


Harden was making some tough shots in the other games...nothing to do with the defense really.

Tougher than the shots MJ made on the regular? And he wasn't getting mid 60s FTr either.


Slightly worse stats than Hardens. His game wouldn't translate well in this era, mostly due to the fact he'd be up against guys who actually match up well with him instead of the slow forwards or short weak SG's he was used to in the 90s. Much tougher era today.

Even Kobe in his teens was shitting on Jordan defensively.

Same dude who was chucking airball after airball against Jeff Hornacek in crunch time during in the playoffs? :confusedshrug:

[SHAQisGOAT]

MJ's most likely the GOAT scorer along with being ultra-competitive, major trash-talker, clutch af, and great alll-around, so he'd get his against anyone. And Klay Thompson is not even that close to some of the all-time best defensive SG's, so ofc Jordan would kill him... Can't see the point of this thread :confusedshrug:



.
[B]
MJ vs. DPOY Sidney Moncrief (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=moncrsi01): 31.6 PPG

MJ vs. DPOY Michael Cooper (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376404): 35.1 PPG

MJ vs. DPOY Alvin Robertson (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=roberal01): 34.7 PPG

MJ vs. DPOY Gary Payton (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01): 30.5 PPG

MJ vs. DPOY Dennis Rodman/Joe Dumars (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=rodmade01): 31.8 PPG


You're not giving Sidney Moncrief is fair-share there... Sid's career was cut short by degenerative knees, after 1986 or so he wasn't remotely close to his best level, never the same again.
Despite all the "circumstances", Moncrief is the only SG who one could make a great case about him having outplayed Jordan h2h in a post-season series:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=312018
Young Michael went from averaging 28.2 PPG on 51.5% FG in the regular-season, to 29.3 on 43.6% FG vs Sid's Bucks in the Playoffs, playing like 5 more minutes. Sid gave him hell on the other end to boot. MJ still played great and was a rookie against a veteran in his prime with better teammates, but I still think Sid had the edge on that one while his team moved ahead.

Those are just the numbers vs the Lakers, not strictly guarded by Michael Cooper but - regardless - Coop never "bothered" Jordan all that much while guarding him, opposite to what one would most likely think given Cooper's defensive prowness, style of play, physique/athleticism and reputation; opposite to what Coop was doing to many other players, straight shutting them down...

Payton was most likely the player who guarded MJ the best alongside Moncrief (at least from what I've seen), with the 1996 Finals being a great example.

Dumars, Rodman and the Bad Boys still gave Jordan lots of trouble and bruises, to say the least; and they won plenty against his Bulls. Still, like I've said, dude like MJ is bound to get his.

[3ball]

Dumars, Rodman and the Bad Boys still gave Jordan lots of trouble and bruises, to say the least; and they won plenty against his Bulls. Still, like I've said, dude like MJ is bound to get his.


All your excuses aside... the numbers are what they are - those are his CAREER numbers versus those players...

There's nothing you can say to diminish them.. The numbers are there, and they'll always be there.. He crushed all those guys - the numbers prove it.

[midatlantic09]

Probably like 40ppg on 53+%.

Klay is slow and lacks athleticism so Jordan would likely destroy him on the offensive end.

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d43a0fed435cbc48f818ee8844437e74.gif


Even Kobe in his teens was shitting on Jordan defensively.

slow forwards or short weak SG's he was used to in the 90s. Much tougher era today




Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding Lebron

Shawn Marion
Andre Igoudala
Kobe Bryant (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365450)
Kawhi Leonard
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Paul George
Ron Artest (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV52IrBoj90)
Thabo Sefalosha
Shane Battier (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10924107&postcount=24)
Tony Allen
Raja Bell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw&t=8m51s)
Dwayne Wade



Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding MJ

Dennis Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858)
Michael Cooper (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376404)
Derrick McKey (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10536861&postcount=264)
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
John Starks
Doug Christie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s)
Anthony Mason
Clifford Robinson
Nate McMillan
Dan Majerle
Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ)
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Bobby Phills
Paul Pressey
Rodney McCray
Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)
Kevin Garnett (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352753)***



MJ's Best Two-Way Opponents:

Clyde Drexler (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695321&postcount=8)
Dominique Wilkins (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744903&postcount=25)
Kobe Bryant (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365450)
Penny Hardaway (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692264&postcount=24)
Grant Hill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10667322#post10667322)
Ron Harper
Reggie Lewis (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989)
Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y)
Sean Elliot
Michael Finley
Kendall Gill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744186&postcount=18)
Richard Dumas (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692400&postcount=30)
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse


***You'll notice that I included a prime Garnett in MJ's list because he and MJ both played SF in 2002 - in their first meeting when MJ was a Wizard, they were matched up SF vs. SF for the entire game.. MJ scored 35 on Garnett in every way imaginable from the opening tip - at the 4:00 mark, Jordan scores on Garnett for 5 consecutive possessions, with the announcers getting more excited each time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4

Lebron was never guarded by a prime Garnett.. I doubt he would have the quickness to make it a huge mismatch like MJ did.. After all, guys like Boris Diaw, Gordon Hayward fare well against Lebron defensively.

[SHAQisGOAT]

All your excuses aside... the numbers are what they are - those are his CAREER numbers versus those players...

There's nothing you can say to diminish them.. The numbers are there, and they'll always be there.. He crushed all those guys - the numbers prove it.

:facepalm

Excuses? For what? Just stating the circumstances, like Sid having degenerative knees and never being the same after 1985.

Diminish them? I wasn't diminishing anything, just stating the facts...

That's like people saying Jordan only averaged around 21 PPG on 43% in the 00's, then you state the obvious like he was already 40, banged up, so on, but they'll only say you're bringing up excuses... How about that?

How about the only time Jordan and Moncrief went h2h in the post-season...

Jordan: 29.3 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 8.5 apg, 2.8 spg, 1.0 bpg, 3.8 TO, 43.6% FG, 12.5% 3P, 82.8% FT, .565 TS%, 42.8 mpg

Moncrief: 26.5 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 4.8 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 1.8 TO, 54.9% FG, 40.0% 3P, 92.3% FT, .717 TS%, 42.0 mpg

--> Sid's Bucks won the series 3 to 1.

^What you gotta say about that? And don't bring up "excuses" :rolleyes:

Why was Jordan 1-9 before Pippen? Why was he getting beat up by Bird's Celtics every single time?...
Don't bring up "excuses"...

[livinglegend]

All the oldies going off in this thread. :lol :lol
Nobody is reading your essays. :oldlol:

[3ball]

How about the only time Jordan and Moncrief went h2h in the post-season...

Jordan: 29.3 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 8.5 apg, 2.8 spg, 1.0 bpg, 3.8 TO, 43.6% FG, 12.5% 3P, 82.8% FT, .565 TS%, 42.8 mpg

Moncrief: 26.5 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 4.8 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 1.8 TO, 54.9% FG, 40.0% 3P, 92.3% FT, .717 TS%, 42.0 mpg

[/B]
MJ vs. Moncrief was a great matchup in the 1985 1st round (Moncrief was the defending DPOY), and I would say MJ's 29 PPG, 9 APG on 57% TS is equal to his similarly-gaudy career stats vs. Moncrief, listed in OP.

As for Moncrief's 27/5/5... Moncrief was a great player.. a GREAT player.. Underrated historically - one of the best perimeter defenders of all time, plenty of quickness, plenty of hops, great size, mentally tough, excellent scorer.

In that series, the entire Milwaukee defense keyed on MJ, whereas the Bulls had multiple guys to worry about from the stacked, 2nd-seeded, 59-win Bucks team.. One of the best teams the Bucks have ever had.

[aj1987]

I'm and idiot.
Yes Yes, you are.

29-17, ****tard.


34/7/5 on 58% TS is what he'd probably average against this team.

[JellyBean]

MJ's goal was always 8 points a quarter. 4 FG per quarter. Throw in some free throws, which he is going to get because he was MJ and some 3 point shots. I am looking at 34.5

[imnew09]

Gives Klay a concussion without kneeing him

[3ball]

Probably like 40ppg on 53+%.

Klay is slow and lacks athleticism so Jordan would likely destroy him on the offensive end.


It's interesting - since 1-defender strongsides are standard in the current era, if MJ played today, the ENTIRE game would be based around that: MJ vs. 1-defender strongsides, as seen repeatedly in the Atlanta-Cavs series:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570


But with MJ, coaches would be incentivized isolate MJ against 1 strongside defender on EVERY SINGLE possession - because it would make sense: MJ would lead today's NBA in isolation PPP and FG%, whereas Lebron's isolation PPP ranked only 78th out of 350 in regular season, while his FG% ranked 117th out of 350.

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&sort=FG&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

In the playoffs, Lebron is 35th out of 40 in isolation PPP, and 30th out of 40 in FG%... Apparently, having star-capable teammates at every position has it's benefits.

[SHAQisGOAT]

MJ vs. Moncrief was a great matchup in the 1985 1st round (Moncrief was the defending DPOY), and I would say MJ's 29 PPG, 9 APG on 57% TS is equal to his similarly-gaudy career stats vs. Moncrief, listed in OP.

As for Moncrief's 27/5/5... Moncrief was a great player.. a GREAT player.. Underrated historically - one of the best perimeter defenders of all time, plenty of quickness, plenty of hops, great size, mentally tough, excellent scorer.

In that series, the entire Milwaukee defense keyed on MJ, whereas the Bulls had multiple guys to worry about from the stacked, 2nd-seeded, 59-win Bucks team.. One of the best teams the Bucks have ever had.

"Excuses" :rolleyes:

Facts are that MJ went from .592 TS% in the regular-season to .565 TS% vs Moncrief; playing 5 more minutes per game, Michael couldn't even score more than 1 PPG above his regular-season average; he only shot 43.6% from the field and also turned the ball over too much. While Sid played well above his RS level and his team beat Jordan's Bulls.

^That's how it went down, don't try to diminish the facts :rolleyes:

See, two can play that game... And yea, Sid was a great player and those Bucks great team.

[Relinquish]

Maybe 12 ppg.

[DonDadda59]

Moncrief doesn't get the respect he deserves from so-called basketball fans. He was a bad muthaphucka :applause:

[3ball]

34/7/5 on 58% TS is what he'd probably average against this team.


Less than what he did against Drexler?... No way.. So more like 39 PPG, 7 APG, 52%

But again, I think his averages would depend on what the Bulls NEEDED.. Certainly, if the Bulls were in perpetual danger of getting overwhelmed by the Warrior's offense like they were in the 1993 Finals vs. Phoenix's juggernaut offense, MJ might need to get 41/9/6 again so the Bulls can keep up.

In the 1993 Finals, the Bulls PPG and ORTg was 106.7 and 113.0, which was EXACTLY the same as Phoenix, so the Bulls offense baaarely succeeded in keeping up.. Every ounce of MJ's 41/9/6 was needed.

But if the Bulls were able to play good defense and contain the Warriors, then MJ doesn't need to score as much..

And again, the weakside spacing of today's game results in less strongside defenders, including 1-defender strongsides, which are standard in today's game.. Given MJ's efficiency at isolations, coaches would be incentivized to isolate MJ against 1-defender strongsides on every possession.. If that was case (and I see no reason it wouldn't be), who knows what how much MJ would average.. Something Oscar-like with more scoring.

[aj1987]

Less than what he did against Drexler?... No way.. So more like 39 PPG, 7 APG, 52%

29-17, retard

You do realize that the Dub's have 2 legit DPOY's and 1 ELITE defender, right?

[DonDadda59]

You do realize that the Dub's have 2 legit DPOY's and 1 ELITE defender, right?

James Harden, even with his disastrous closeout game, still put up 28/8/6 on 63% TS against them.

Davis put up 32/11 on 54% FG against them in his first playoff series.

Their defense is good... not great. They haven't proven they can slow down star players.

[sd3035]

Jordan would embarrass Klay to be honest

[3ball]

Facts are that MJ went from .592 TS% in the regular-season to .565 TS% vs Moncrief; playing 5 more minutes per game, Michael couldn't even score more than 1 PPG above his regular-season average; While Sid played well above his RS level and his team beat Jordan's Bulls.

And yea, Sid was a great player and those Bucks great team.


The facts are that the 1985 Bulls were a 1-man team.

The Bucks defense only had to worry about stopping him and accordingly, focused all their attention on him.. MJ's 29 ppg, 9 apg on 57% true shooting occurred against the entire Bucks team intent on stopping him, not just Moncrief.

The Bucks didn't win 59 games by being not smart enough to focus all their attention on the head of a 1-man team, as any team does.

Btw, here's more facts - MJ averaged 31.5 PPG vs. Moncrief for his career.
.

[Harison]

In the Finals? 40PPG at good efficiency.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Moncrief doesn't get the respect he deserves from so-called basketball fans. He was a bad muthaphucka :applause:

:applause:



The facts are that the 1985 Bulls were a 1-man team.

The Bucks defense only had to worry about stopping him and accordingly, focused all their attention on him.. MJ's 29 ppg, 9 apg on 57% true shooting occurred against the entire Bucks team intent on stopping him, not just Moncrief.

The Bucks didn't win 59 games by being not smart enough to focus all their attention on the head of a 1-man team, as any team does.

Btw, here's more facts - MJ averaged 31.5 PPG vs. Moncrief for his career.
.

...


All your excuses aside... the numbers are what they are - those are his CAREER numbers versus those players...

There's nothing you can say to diminish them.. The numbers are there, and they'll always be there.. He crushed all those guys - the numbers prove it.

...

On the real though, I've made the same point you're going for way before this "discussion"...
And while Jordan was carrying a HEAVY load, you're still going too far with the whole 1-man team though...

http://i59.tinypic.com/6xxg9e.png

Plus, Nellie's Bucks ran a great defensive system and knew what to do in order to contain players like MJ but Sid was still the one guarding him, making him miss most shots, playing terrific individual defense (not by chance you're winning 2 DPOY's), even if he had plenty of help...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFV59cFZi-U

[3ball]

Sid was still the one guarding him, making him miss most shots, playing terrific individual defense (not by chance you're winning 2 DPOY's), even if he had plenty of help...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFV59cFZi-U


Jordan averaged 29 PPG, 9 APG, 57% TS against a 2-time DPOY and as usual, some form of Jordan Rules (entire defense against 1-man team).

For his career, MJ averaged 31.5 PPG vs. Moncrief.

I'm happy with those facts.. :applause:

[3ball]

You do realize that the Dub's


Stopped reading..

Again, since 1-defender strongsides are available and standard in today's game, if MJ played today, every single possession (the entire game) would revolve around him being isolated on strongside against 1 defender.

It makes sense - Lebron led the regular season and currently leads the playoffs in isolation frequency, and his team is succeeding, yet his isolation PPP and FG% rankings are very low..

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&sort=PPP&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season


In regular season, he ranked only 78th out of 350 in isolation PPP, while his FG% ranked 117th out of 350.. In the playoffs, Lebron is 35th out of 40 in isolation PPP, and 30th out of 40 in FG%.. If Lebron can have success at those rates of isolation efficiency, than what would MJ do?

Regarding Lebron's success while having such poor isolation stats - apparently, having star-capable teammates at every position has it's benefits.
.

[chazzy]

The same 'sophisticated' #1 ranked defense that just allowed 2 dimensional ass James Harden to average 28/8/6 on 63% TS? :lol

Can you imagine if MJ was getting the same FTr that the Beard is getting now? 37 PPG easily.
Why did Reggie Miller have a much better FTr than MJ

[SHAQisGOAT]

Jordan averaged 29 PPG, 9 APG, 57% TS against a 2-time DPOY and as usual, some form of Jordan Rules (entire defense against 1-man team).

For his career, MJ averaged 31.5 PPG vs. Moncrief.

I'm happy with those facts.. :applause:

Michael and Sidney, in the only Playoff series they went (h2h) against eachother:

-Jordan dropped 7.9% in FG, with .027 less TS%; and couldn't even score more than 1 point per game above his regular-season averages, despite playing 5 more MPG.
Was turning the ball over a lot too.
And he had a teammate, Orlando Woolridge, averaging 20 PPG on 50% from the field to help him out, while his backup was scoring 15, also.

-Moncrief, comparing to his regular-season averages, scored 5 PPG more, shot 6.6% better from the field, upped his TS% from .565 to .717, while his team WON, 3-1 vs Jordan's Bulls.
All that against the GOAT, who's one of the best defensive SG's ever too, once DPOY.
:applause:

----

For his career, Jordan never beat Moncrief's Bucks in the post-season; when it really matters.

"When you play against Moncrief, you're in for a night of all-around basketball. He'll hound you everywhere you go, both ends of the court. You just expect it." - Michael Jordan

And I'm happy with these... :rolleyes:

[Rose'sACL]

James Harden, even with his disastrous closeout game, still put up 28/8/6 on 63% TS against them.

Davis put up 32/11 on 54% FG against them in his first playoff series.

Their defense is good... not great. They haven't proven they can slow down star players.
james harden hit a lot of very hard shots to do that. MJ could do that too i guess but you are talking like harden was getting open jumpers or free lane to the basket everytime. When his shot wasn't falling, he was a disaster on the floor so that just shows that warriors defense was elite, harden's jumper was also at GOAT level in a few games when he dominated.
in short, you're an idiot.

[Sarcastic]

50 year old Jordan could drop 20 on Klay.

[Done_And_Done]

MJ would put up heavy scoring averages on anyone in any era of the league. His ppg would be North of 30 I'm surmising.

[G0ATbe]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d43a0fed435cbc48f818ee8844437e74.gif
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gif

[3ball]

Rookie Michael and Sidney, in the only Playoff series they went (h2h) against eachother:


Sidney Moncrief, the DPOY, let a rookie go off for 29 ppg and 9 apg on 57% TS.. That's a 44% increase in MJ's assists (5.9 to 8.5).. His TO's only increased 9% from 3.5 to 3.8.

:roll:

That's how you know MJ's the GOAT.. He got 29/9 in the playoffs as a rookie against the defending, 2-time DPOY... With higher stats across the board (pts, assists, stl, blk).. That's probably the most production Moncrief gave up all year.. Against a rookie.
.

[jzek]

About 25PPG.
























































































































































































Per half.

[jzek]

Similar to what he averaged once he finally got a taste of modern defenses (2000- onwards)


20 points on 47% TS

He was how old again?

Exactly.

If anything, it's a testament to how great Jordan is that he can average 20PPG against modern defenses at such an old age!

[3ball]

If anything, it's a testament to how great Jordan is that he can average 20PPG against modern defenses at such an old age!


You act like the league revolutionized from 1997 to 2002... That's only 5 years.. In 1997, MJ averaged 32 PPG and was hitting walk-off Ray Allens in Game 1 of the Finals, while Kobe was airballing 4 times in a row against the exact same team.

Then in 1998, he won regular season MVP, All-Star MVP, and Finals MVP.. So I'm going to assume if he was the same age (35) just 4 years later in 2002, he could do the same thing.. His team would run roughshod through the East and Kidd's Nets.. Then they'd overwhelm the Lakers in the Finals with smarts and defense, similar to Rip Hamilton's Pistons in 2004.

Also, "modern defenses" would not be 2002.. It would be post-2005 when hand-checking and paint-camping was banned.. More importantly, it would be when D'Antoni introduced modern spacing strategy to the league in 2006, and then Carlisle updated it in 2011.

Carlisle's update included the use of weakside floor-spreaders to draw defenders away from strongside and reduce the number of strongside defenders.. Carlisle's introduction of weakside floor-spacing coincided with a league-wide increase in at-rim percentages from 2011-2013, as every team adopted weakside spacing as standard, every-possession strategy.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Sidney Moncrief, the DPOY, let a rookie go off for 29 ppg and 9 apg on 57% TS.. That's a 44% increase in MJ's assists (5.9 to 8.5).. His TO's only increased 9% from 3.5 to 3.8.

:roll:

That's how you know MJ's the GOAT.. He got 29/9 in the playoffs as a rookie against the defending, 2-time DPOY... With higher stats across the board (pts, assists, stl, blk).. That's probably the most production Moncrief gave up all year.. Against a rookie.
.

Well, given that that particular rookie was coming off of a season where he was 3rd in PPG, All-NBA 2nd, 6th in MVP voting, and over the course of 82 games scored 28.2 PPG on .515 FG%/.592 TS%... I'd say that it's a great feat, for his defender, that that rookie dropped his FG% by .079 and his TS% by .027, while playing 5 more minutes per game and only scoring 1 PPG more.

Plus, that rookie is also considered the GOAT basketball player by most people, and was winning DPOY three seasons afterwards... And Sid upped his PPG by 5, his FG% by .066 and his TS% by .152, against Michael; probably the best production Jordan seen all year.

Oh, and Sid's Bucks beat Jordan's Bulls quite decisively.

^I'd say that all of that is very impressive, especially since not even one SG can make a great case to having outplayed Jordan h2h in a post-season series... No SG except for Moncrief that is, who can make that claim.

If it was LeBron dropping his production/efficiency like that from RS to PS, while his direct matchup raised his considerably while his team beats Bron's team... You'd be calling LBJ out, criticizing the hell out of him, regardless of the "circumstances". - And I'm not saying this as if it is my opinion towards Jordan, regarding that year/series.

DPOY that year was actually Eaton but whatever...

And nobody's denying that MJ's the GOAT, you're so insecure though, got you shook :lol

[navy]

He would average his usual goat numbers.

Depends on how they decided to defend him. Which is the sophistication of today's defense's. You are completely free to do whatever you want save for 3 seconds obviously. Dennis Rodman averaging 3 ppg? Haha, nobody would even look in his direction offensively like they use to, they would ignore him completly and make sure his man was the back up on Jordan. Non 3 point shooters on the court? Whoever is guarding them would be sure to be on Jordan as well.

Jordan would get his. it's up to the defense to decide if they want him to do it scoring or passing when they leave his teammates open worried about him

Also Harden was hitting tough shots and his usual shooting fts bs lol at posting his ts%. Jordan never usually had high ts% (comparatively) Means nothing, goat scorer.

[3ball]

and over the course of 82 games MJ scored 28.2 PPG on .515 FG%/.592 TS%...

I'd say that it's a great feat, for his defender, that that rookie dropped his FG% by .079 and his TS% by .027, while playing 5 more minutes per game and only scoring 1 PPG more.


Exactly - you posted rookie MJ's regular season averages, which are his overall average against good teams AND bad teams..

The Bucks were a GREAT team at that time.. So 29 ppg, 9 apg, on 57% TS as a rookie in your very first playoffs.... and going against the defending, 2-time DPOY...... That's GOAT.

[navy]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-25-2015/7mUjI9.gif


How would he do versus this ^^^ sophistication above - OMG, that looks like a strongside with only 1 defender on it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... :lebronamazed:


:rolleyes:.. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570
.
That's the play right there. The sophistication it is that the Hawks didnt have to play it like that. They could put their players wherever they wanted to. You cherry picking gifs is a perfect example of sophistication. Hawks are free to place their players wherever they choose.

1 strong side defender, 2 strong side defenders, 3 or 4, they can do as they please. :applause:

[SHAQisGOAT]

That's the play right there. The sophistication it is that the Hawks didnt have to play it like that. They could put their players wherever they wanted to.


Not in the paint, at least not for 3 or more seconds...

[navy]

Not in the paint, at least not for 3 or more seconds...
I know, I mentioned that 3 post above. :cheers:

[3ball]

some misinformation itt

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-25-2015/7mUjI9.gif


Hawks are free to place their players wherever they choose.



None of the Hawks players above can stand in the paint for more than 2.9 seconds.

Today's defensive 3 seconds rule doesn't allow defenders to stand in the paint without an offensive player standing right next to them (within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html)).. In the Hawks GIF, no defenders can remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area because there wouldn't be any offensive players within armslength (about 3 feet).

Otoh, in previous eras, Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed defenders to remain in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was anywhere inside the paint, or within 3 feet or either side..

Now obviously, Rule 2b wouldn't let defenders paint-camp in the Hawks GIF shown above or any other possession with a 1-defender strongside, since the 3-point shooters are outside the 3-foot allowable distance on the either side of the lane.. But teams didn't shoot 3-pointers in the 80's, so there would NEVER be multiple weakside floor-spreaders that leave the strongside with only 1 defender, and you can never show me a play like that..





You cherry picking gifs


The GIF's aren't cherry-picked - the thread shows multiple possessions from every game in the Atlanta series where Lebron SCORED on 1-defenders strongsides, so it doesn't even include the times he misses, or otherwise didn't make a play (which occur more often for all players):

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570
.

[diamenz]

klay would suffer a concussion without any physical contact.

[ClipperRevival]

I think the greatest physical attribute that seldom gets mentioned for MJ is his first step and quickness. He was so explosive with his first step and possessed such great foot quickness, he could get by anyone.

He would toy with Klay. Klay is a solid player but the difference in foot quickness between the two is night and day. Klay just would have no chance of staying with MJ. And you add in MJ's all time great basketball skills and it's not funny.

[navy]

None of the Hawks players above can stand in the paint for more than 2.9 seconds.

Today's defensive 3 seconds rule doesn't allow defenders to stand in the paint without an offensive player standing right next to them (within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html)).. In the Hawks GIF, no defenders can remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area because there wouldn't be any offensive players within armslength (about 3 feet).

Otoh, in previous eras, Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed defenders to remain in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was anywhere inside the paint, or within 3 feet or either side..

Now obviously, Rule 2b wouldn't let defenders paint-camp in the Hawks GIF shown above or any other possession with a 1-defender strongside, since the 3-point shooters are outside the 3-foot allowable distance on the either side of the lane.. But teams didn't shoot 3-pointers in the 80's, so there would NEVER be multiple weakside floor-spreaders that leave the strongside with only 1 defender, and you can never show me a play like that..



The GIF's aren't cherry-picked - the thread shows multiple possessions from every game in the Atlanta series where Lebron SCORED on 1-defenders strongsides, so it doesn't even include the times he misses, or otherwise didn't make a play (which occur more often for all players):

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570
.

I already said they are free to be everywhere besides the paint for 3 seconds. Seeing as I already said that, you didnt respond to my post at all....

Like I said the sophistication is that they are free to have as many strong side defenders or weak side defenders as they want. They chose to do what they wanted in your cherry picked gif, yes cherry picked, and they could do it 50 times a game if they wanted or 0 times if they wanted. They are free to pick. As opposed to the past where they were forced to stay on men or hard double. "Sophistication". :applause:

[Straight_Ballin]

He would toy with Klay with his footwork alone. It would be embarrassing. MJ would trash talk him until Klay pisses his pants.

Not only this but he would simply adapt to whatever you threw at him. It's the GOAT we are talking about here, not some guy who barely cracked the top ten and is about to go 2/6.....

[IGOTGAME]

Klay on Jordan is just a big mismatch. Same with him on Kobe before Kobe's injury. He is just not a good enough defender to take ANYTHING away. Either could put him in the post at will.

[3ball]

I already said they are free to be everywhere besides the paint for 3 seconds.. Seeing as I already said that, you didnt respond to my post at all....


The 16 x 19 foot painted area is the most important part of the floor to defend, so I didn't see the need to respond to your tertiary concerns and erroneous perceptions of the game.





they could do it 50 times a game if they wanted or 0 times if they wanted. They are free to pick.


Today's spacing FORCES them to pick, genius... Previous eras didn't have to pick because there were no 3-point shooters, so defenders didn't have to leave the paint or the strongside.

Otoh, today's defenders must guard 3-point shooters, particularly on the weakside, so they have to leave the paint open and the strongside with fewer defenders, often only 1 defender.

[navy]

The 16 x 19 foot painted area is the most important part of the floor to defend, so I didn't see the need to respond to your tertiary concerns and erroneous perceptions of the game.



Today's spacing FORCES them to pick, genius... Previous eras didn't have to pick because there were no 3-point shooters, so defenders didn't have to leave the paint or the strongside.

Otoh, today's defenders must guard 3-point shooters, particularly on the weakside, so they have to leave the paint open and the strongside with fewer defenders, often only 1 defender.
3 seconds baby. I only speak facts.

3 point shooting was introduced in the 80s bro. Hell the ABA had it. What was stopping teams from using it back then? Nothing.

That's why the most sophisticated and best defenses shut down penetration and get back in time to stop 3 pointers. The power of defensive freedom. 1 strong side, 2 strong side, 3 strong side, whatever you want, 5 converge force a kick out, pick and roll blitz, close out, stunt.

The defense can do as it pleases. It's why you see rarely see teams field multiple non offensive threats on the floor. In the past you had to guard them now you stick Andrew Bogut on Tony Allen and ignore him completely. Not even look in his direction. :no:

[TheBigVeto]

He'll be lucky if he scores 10 PPG against Klay.

[3ball]

That's why the best defenses shut down penetration


That's not today's defense - the NBA officially stated that their rule changes worked AS PLANNED to increase penetration - this is straight from the creator of the new rules, so it isn't subjective opinion, just like Bill Gates vision for Microsoft would never have been considered subjective opinion:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html


NBA.COM: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

NBA: Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.


NBA.COM: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

NBA: It doesn't. With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim.


NBA.COM: From an Xs and Os perspective, how have coaches adjusted to a more wide-open game? What have they done differently?

NBA: Coaches have utilized more space on the floor so to create more room for dribble penetration, two-man pick-and-roll basketball and dribble exchanges on the perimeter.


NBA.COM: When you watch the game today, does it closely resemble an international game or are there still distinct differences in the style of play?

NBA: Our game does more closely resemble an international game in terms of the style of play than it used to. However, there are distinct differences in the international game vs. the NBA game. The international game utilizes a pure zone defense (as opposed to the defensive three-second rule), which allows frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration.

[navy]

That's not today's defense
False. I said the best defenses shut down penetration. If they failed they arent the best.
All shit is irrelevant, the offenses goal is to penetrate, the defenses goal is to stop it . :no:

[IGOTGAME]

Legend of Klay Thompson's defense has gotten out of hand

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Well the Warriors would be the most efficient defense that Jordan ever faced in the Finals..:confusedshrug:

The most similar team would be the 96 Sonics DEF Rating 102.1

Jordan averaged 27 pts on 41% shooting against them

[navy]

Legend of Klay Thompson's defense has gotten out of hand
Are you sure, after Harden massacred him , i haven't heard good things about his defense.

[3ball]

misinformation itt

[3ball]

Well the Warriors would be the most efficient defense that Jordan ever faced in the Finals..:confusedshrug:

The most similar team would be the 96 Sonics DEF Rating 102.1


horseshit.

the 1998 Utah Jazz had a playoff DRtg of 100.3, which is lower than anything Lebron ever faced in the Finals, and better than anything Kobe ever faced post-Shaq (as the #1 option).

[Yao Ming's Foot]

horseshit.

the 1998 Utah Jazz had a playoff DRtg of 100.3, which is lower than anything Lebron ever faced in the Finals, and better than anything Kobe ever faced post-Shaq (as the #1 option).

I'm citing their 82 game regular season defensive rating. A playoff defensive rating is rather meaningless in comparison.

If Jordan faced an all time great defense and shredded them in the first round does that mean it wasn't an all time great defense any more since they would end up with a high defensive rating?

or

If Kobe faced an all time terrible defense and and played horribly would that mean they were actually a great defense since they would end with a low playoff defensive rating?

:facepalm

[eeeeeebro]

i miss watching 90s basketball =( but MJ would score as much as it took to win... alot of MJ greatest shots were championship winning shots. SO IF curry scored 40 jordan would score 60. DO NOT BELIEVE IT? trust me jordan is the true version of unguardable 6 wins 0 loses in the finals he has never been beaten.

[aj1987]

James Harden, even with his disastrous closeout game, still put up 28/8/6 on 63% TS against them.

Davis put up 32/11 on 54% FG against them in his first playoff series.

Their defense is good... not great. They haven't proven they can slow down star players.
He also averaged 5 TOV's a game. He was lights out in 2 games. That's why his TS% and PPG are that high. Good shooters tend to get one once in a while.

You MJ stans are a sensitive bunch. It's not like I said he'd averaged 25 PPG on 50% TS.