Id like to discuss Alex english and the recent hatred of the 2 point shot.

[Kblaze8855]

Im sure you all know who he is...even if not much about his game. Leading scorer of the 80s. Owned people in the post despite being like 6'7'' 195. Long arms and a high release that let him play in constant traffic and get his shots off over any defender....

I got started on a video for him since I decided Bernard King had been too well covered...then one on Dan Issell....and one on Kiki...and Adrian Dantley....and even Kelly Tripuka...then I got lazy and figured Alex alone would make my point.



I'll give some quick gif examples since the sudden onslaught of laziness kept me from finishing the video right now and gifs are quicker...

*sorry in advance to people with computers from 2003*


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http://giant.gfycat.com/TenderEnchantedKingsnake.gif


Note the great contest of all shots. That isnt some geek off the street guarding him...its all D first teamer Rodney Mccray. One of the best man to man defenders ive seen. You can see hes right up in him on those shots...and when Alex lost him Ralph Sampson(7'2 to 7'4'' depending on who you ask) comes over and he just shoots a rainbow to the rafters to get over him.










Another game vs Houston...hes got the reverse pivot fadeaway. One dribble pullup.

http://giant.gfycat.com/SharpHonoredDonkey.gif


Just generally puts in work.

Here he is scoring with the reverse pivot over the quick double.. later running a play with Dan Issel thats almost an off the ball pick and roll......












http://giant.gfycat.com/LightEminentBarbet.gif

Dan was ready to shoot it if the double went with Alex as he flashed into the lane...which they did...but he shot it anyway.

Alex English didnt need to get open. He just made tough shots. Bit like Dirk in that regard.

Alex was one of the best shooters in the world...but I bet he didnt make 50 3s in his life.

Guys like him are unlikely to exist going forward because its been deemed inefficient...but think about it...

If Lebron could make 15 footers and pullup jumpers like Alex would there be any guarding him?

You dont need to take it 15 times a game like he did....but is having the option really so bad?

Id like to see a guy like him in this league. Nearly unguardable inside 18 feet...makes his FTs....post game and faceup.

Id like to drop him on the Bucks with a good offensive minded coach to come up with plays.

Or better yet the Hawks.

Alex English at the 3 on the Hawks with Bud drawing up plays to make use of him off the ball and around the basket?

Teague
Korver
English
Millsap
Horford

Id watch that team. Korver/English off ball screens would be a joy to watch.

I kinda feel I opened this up to some "Alex English wouldnt start on the Hawks" talk. I hope not. I dont know if I could endure an Alex English vs Demarre Carroll argument.

[andgar923]

Melo is one of the few that I can think of.

His mid range is good. *watches as somebody using stats to prove me wrong.*

Well, I honestly haven't seen much of him, but when I have he's usually killing in the mid. He's not fancy, he's not overwhelming people with athleticism, he's not as smooth as Mamba, he just does.

Sort of like English and most players from the past.

They just did.

[CJ Mustard]

I'm pretty sure the issue is the long 2, not the midrange shot. There are still plenty of players in the league that make a living off of the midrange jumper. It's the 18-20 footers that are being criticized. And rightfully so for the most part.

[Kblaze8855]

I don't know how many there really are. I suppose I'd have to go team by team.

Would you call Aldridge a midrange player or a long two player?

I kinda enjoy him.

[macmac]

I'm pretty sure the issue is the long 2, not the midrange shot. There are still plenty of players in the league that make a living off of the midrange jumper. It's the 18-20 footers that are being criticized. And rightfully so for the most part.

He's not talking about making the open mid range shot, he's talking about creating that consistent mid range shot by being crafty with seperation and release, not spot up shooters off screens or double teams.

And there's just not any players like that in the league. I mean closest you get to that is floaters, the style is deemed awkward and too herky jerky for today's standards, but for sure its damn efficient.

[Kblaze8855]

I suspect the lack of emphasis placed on that ability factors into late game situations in a major way. What percentage of attempted game winners would you bet are 10-20 foot pullup jumpers?

A waaaaaaay higher rate than the average shot im sure. Generally cant get to the basket. Generally wont take 3 off the dribble.

Stop and pop from 12-18 is probably the go to shot under durress. And coaches seem content to have people not take them until they have no choice.

I bet Jordan, Kobe, and Bird combine for 60 pullup jumper game winners.

[kNicKz]

Kind of random but Ronny Turiaf used to randomly shoot deep corner 2s on the Lakers. I always wondered what he was doing out there but he made them quite a bit

[warriorfan]

the main thing is just midrange shots are more difficult than their reward gives to you


you would rather be taking it to the rim for layup/dunk or freethrow opportunities over a midrange shot

you would rather be shooting a 3 (if you have the range that is) over a midrange shot


It's just easier to lay up / dunk / free throw than to make midrange shots at 50% clip.

It's just easier to shoot 3 pointers at 40% than it is to hit midrange jumpers at 50%


If you have 10 midrange jumpshots and make 5 of them then that is 10 points

If you have 10 3 point shots and make 4 of them that is 12 points

This adds up overtime.


I know this leads to some James Harden ball a lot of the time which I can't stand, but it is the smartest way to play basketball if you are going by the numbers.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Good stuff :applause:

English is one of the best scorers of all-time.
I believe he has the most points scored in the 80's, and considering players like Bird, Dantley, Kareem, Wilkins, Jordan... that's very impressive.

Dude was a master at those rainbow leaners, runners and those floaters from close range, didn't mind the contest much - unless you blocked his jumper, which happened very little due to his height, reach and catapult form; think I've see Dr J block it once.
Also had a pretty good post-game like you've said, not as good as Dantley's, nor even prime King's or overall for Bird, but still very effective there.
Terrific soft-touch, with the footwork.

What was always "funny" to me is that Dantley was a complete beast in the paint so people sometimes gave him the space while AD would knock plenty of long jumpers (although Alex shot/made more 3's for his career)... Meanwhile Enligsh, when given the space, would just dribble up close to the defender and shoot it in his face :lol He would always go for the closer shot he could get, contested or not.

Alex is pretty overlooked nowadays though, he made 2nd all-nba 3x in the best era for SF's, once was scoring champ, once was 6th in MVP voting, led plenty of winning teams, did his thing in the post-season...

I also feel like he doesn't get enough credit for his game, I'd say a dude like Dantley was a better scorer but English had a more complete game, more than given regular credit for, too... He was also a good passer, could rebound, nice off-ball defender; fit right into those up-tempo Nuggets' teams
He had very good longevity, also.

Never was flashy in or out the court, played for a small market in a stacked era, so plenty don't know about him nowadays.
His game was very smooth, always reminded me a lot of George Gervin - although Iceman was a better, more impactful player/scorer.

If English came up nowadays he'd have a better, more developed 3pt shot most likely... But, opposite of him, you had other great SF scorers who still made it part of their game back then (Bird, Nique, Aguirre, Kiki...) and Alex would be a terrific scorer in any era regardless, just have him in a team right now with 2/3 other players to space the floor and he'd kill teams inside the 3pt line, also went plenty to the line and shot them at a high clip.

[SHAQisGOAT]

the main thing is just midrange shots are more difficult than their reward gives to you


you would rather be taking it to the rim for layup/dunk or freethrow opportunities over a midrange shot

you would rather be shooting a 3 (if you have the range that is) over a midrange shot


It's just easier to lay up / dunk / free throw than to make midrange shots at 50% clip.

It's just easier to shoot 3 pointers at 40% than it is to hit midrange jumpers at 50%


If you have 10 midrange jumpshots and make 5 of them then that is 10 points

If you have 10 3 point shots and make 4 of them that is 12 points

This adds up overtime.


I know this leads to some James Harden ball a lot of the time which I can't stand, but it is the smartest way to play basketball if you are going by the numbers.

English wasn't one to take many deep 2's though... He'd prefer those close-range shots just around the paint or in it, he really liked to go very close to shoot it, and he scored at great %'s, even with the paint congestioned... So, what you've said doesn't really apply much to him at all.
Meanwhile a player like Wilkins shot much more deep 2's (even before he developed a reliable 3pt shot), scored at considerably lower %'s, so on... Guess who was more impactful throughout? Can't be "measured" straight up like you're doing.
Many examples, many circumstances, many direct effects already mentioned here come into play; can't be always, or just, done from a "mathematical stand-point.

Now imagine a dude like English doing his thing with today's spacing... He'd straight murder teams.

[Dr.J4ever]

Good stuff :applause:

English is one of the best scorers of all-time.
I believe he has the most points scored in the 80's, and considering players like Bird, Dantley, Kareem, Wilkins, Jordan... that's very impressive.

Dude was a master at those leaners, runners and floaters from close range, didn't mind the contest much - unless you blocked his jumper, which happened very little due to his height, reach and catapult form; think I've see Dr J block it once.
Also had a pretty good post-game like you've said, not as good as Dantley's, nor even prime King's or overall for Bird, but still very effective there.
Terrific soft-touch, with the footwork.

What was always "funny" to me is that Dantley was a complete beast in the paint so people sometimes gave him the space while AD would knock plenty of long jumpers (although Alex shot/made more 3's for his career)... Meanwhile Enligsh, when given the space, would just dribble up close to the defender and shoot it in his face :lol He would always go for the closer shot he could get, contested or not.

Alex is pretty overlooked nowadays though, he made 2nd all-nba 3x in the best era for SF's, once was scoring champ, once was 6th in MVP voting, led plenty of winning teams, did his thing in the post-season...

I also feel like he doesn't get enough credit for his game, I'd say a dude like Dantley was a better scorer but English had a more complete game, more than given regular credit for, too... He was also a good passer, could rebound, nice off-ball defender; fit right into those up-tempo Nuggets' teams
He had very good longevity, also.

Never was flashy in or out the court, played for a small market in a stacked era, so plenty don't know about him nowadays.
His game was very smooth, always reminded me a lot of George Gervin - although Iceman was a better, more impactful player/scorer.

If English came up nowadays he'd have a better, more developed 3pt shot most likely... But, opposite of him, you had other great SF scorers who still made it part of their game back then (Bird, Nique, Aguirre, Kiki...) and Alex would be a terrific scorer in any era regardless, just have him in a team right now with 2/3 other players to space the floor and he'd kill teams inside the 3pt line, also went plenty to the line and shot them at a high clip.


This.

Just to add a critique of AE's game.

Yes, he's all that in this thread, but he played for those high powered Nuggets teams that scored 120ppg a night. All good scorers became great scorers in this attack, including Kiki Vandeweigh(who went to Knicks and wasn't such a big scorer), Issel(who was a great scorer anyway), and later English.

The Nuggets were the team involved in racking up the highest scoring game in NBA history when they played the Pistons, before they became the bad boys, in 160 plus to 160 plus ball game. Imagine that?

When the 76ers used to visit Denver during the 80s, you always knew all our top scorers would end up scoring a ton, and they did.

This is not at all to denigrate any of AE's abilities, but Denver's system of motion offense and pace had something to do with his numbers.

[Jameerthefear]

Alex English is one of the reasons smart people like myself don't take that era seriously.

[La Frescobaldi]

Alex English is one of the reasons smart people like myself don't take that era seriously.
If you were smart you'd tell people you were stupid.

[ClipperRevival]

During an 8 year run from 1982-1989, he averaged 27.3 ppg on .512%. Another thing that set him apart was that he was performing at an elite level until the age of 35, which is rare for wings. Definitely one of the more underrated players around. Most youngsters today have no idea who he is.

[andgar923]

What some young posters donut get is the 3pt shot was frowned upon back then.

I vividly remember how it was considered a bad shot and some coaches would sit players down for taking them.

Even street ball players hardly took them.

Hell, go back and watch all star games and most players didn't take them. Today almost every game is a 3pt shooting contest and players don't have the same amount of craft at getting off a 2 point shot.

[ClipperRevival]

This.

Just to add a critique of AE's game.

Yes, he's all that in this thread, but he played for those high powered Nuggets teams that scored 120ppg a night. All good scorers became great scorers in this attack, including Kiki Vandeweigh(who went to Knicks and wasn't such a big scorer), Issel(who was a great scorer anyway), and later English.

The Nuggets were the team involved in racking up the highest scoring game in NBA history when they played the Pistons, before they became the bad boys, in 160 plus to 160 plus ball game. Imagine that?

When the 76ers used to visit Denver during the 80s, you always knew all our top scorers would end up scoring a ton, and they did.

This is not at all to denigrate any of AE's abilities, but Denver's system of motion offense and pace had something to do with his numbers.

Good point.

[Jameerthefear]

If you were smart you'd tell people you were stupid.
If you were smart you wouldn't talk to me like that especially offline because you might end up with my fist down your throat.

[La Frescobaldi]

What some young posters donut get is the 3pt shot was frowned upon back then.

I vividly remember how it was considered a bad shot and some coaches would sit players down for taking them.

Even street ball players hardly took them.

Hell, go back and watch all star games and most players didn't take them. Today almost every game is a 3pt shooting contest and players don't have the same amount of craft at getting off a 2 point shot.

For years and years the long ball was only ever used to dodge the shot clock. Only a very few guys had the 100% green light to shoot from anywhere. Oscar used to bomb them and so did Jerry Lucas, but not too many guys had the combination of that much confidence in their range and the green light. Of course that was long before the 3 point line.

English would have his way with guys, just like he did then. Those skills were so polished....... he was irrepressible.

[La Frescobaldi]

If you were smart you wouldn't talk to me like that especially offline because you might end up with my fist down your throat.
you always go out of your way to make my point for me.

[ClipperRevival]

the main thing is just midrange shots are more difficult than their reward gives to you


you would rather be taking it to the rim for layup/dunk or freethrow opportunities over a midrange shot

you would rather be shooting a 3 (if you have the range that is) over a midrange shot


It's just easier to lay up / dunk / free throw than to make midrange shots at 50% clip.

It's just easier to shoot 3 pointers at 40% than it is to hit midrange jumpers at 50%


If you have 10 midrange jumpshots and make 5 of them then that is 10 points

If you have 10 3 point shots and make 4 of them that is 12 points

This adds up overtime.


I know this leads to some James Harden ball a lot of the time which I can't stand, but it is the smartest way to play basketball if you are going by the numbers.

Analytics has changed the game to what it is today. And going by the mathematics, it does make sense to play like Houston. Shoot the 3 or take it to the basket. The 18-20 footer is a no-no. And I don't see the game changing for a long time as long as the math and percentages tell you to play a certain way.

I just don't take such an extreme approach. I don't mind playing like Houston, I just wouldn't frown upon a guy taking the 18 footer if it's in rhythm and within the flow of the game. More important for me than the 3 or shots at the basket is to get good shots, no matter where you are on the court. If you can get a good shot almost everytime down, you have a good chance of winning.

[SHAQisGOAT]

This.

Just to add a critique of AE's game.

Yes, he's all that in this thread, but he played for those high powered Nuggets teams that scored 120ppg a night. All good scorers became great scorers in this attack, including Kiki Vandeweigh(who went to Knicks and wasn't such a big scorer), Issel(who was a great scorer anyway), and later English.

The Nuggets were the team involved in racking up the highest scoring game in NBA history when they played the Pistons, before they became the bad boys, in 160 plus to 160 plus ball game. Imagine that?

When the 76ers used to visit Denver during the 80s, you always knew all our top scorers would end up scoring a ton, and they did.

This is not at all to denigrate any of AE's abilities, but Denver's system of motion offense and pace had something to do with his numbers.

True, but like I've said, he was just perfect for that type of offense (not that I can't see him still performing at high level in a different kind) and in his defense, he kept his per36/per100pos stats (even efficiency), or even raised them, as the Nuggets and overall league's pace decreased...

For example, Kiki wasn't the scorer/player Alex was... That was a dude who really benefited from high-paced offenses or other good scorers around him (easily more than English), as his game was absolutely perfect for it and he wouldn't expend much energy for anything else AT ALL.
Don't even want to underrated Vandeweghe though, not denying he could ball and was a very good scorer (what he mostly was), could kill ya 1on1...

[Kblaze8855]

I think to some extent a separation has to be made between role players and stars too. Even Houston who are the most extreme example of the modern layup or 3 play style has Harden who probably takes as many step back jumpers in the mid range as anybody.

The Rockets pretty much play NBA Jam basketball but Harden doesn't hesitate to pull up from 18 feet. Maybe you teach your role players to play a certain way but have to have a star who can make the tough shots like that.

You could surround English with shooters and he would slaughter teams.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

You could surround English with shooters and he would slaughter teams.

He wasn't a good enough passer to have the offense run though him like that. And I'm not talking about about PPG. Just using your terms "slaughtering teams." Him as the focal point would not lead to a very effective team slaughtering others.....

[Showtime80']

The whole 3 pointer is better than an 18 to 20 footer or longer 2 is one of the stupidest myths the present NBA has dug up to try and cover the LONG list of inefficiencies and lack of basic fundamentals that are so prevalent today! One factor not taken into account is the amount of TIME these teams are taking off the clock to get off these vaunted 3-pointers, I estimate between 18 to 22 seconds on average! And yet a lot of teams STILL struggle to break 100 points which makes it even more pathetic.

The reason teams in the 80's didn't take 25 three pointers is simple, they DIDN'T NEED TO!!! With almost EVERY team having strong inside play, fast break game and mid range accuracy the play flowed towards getting the best shot possible without milking the life out of the clock like I stated above. What do you think is more efficient and free flowing? A team shooting 35% in 3 pointers and taking 20+ seconds off the shot clock or a team shooting 50% from 2's and taking 12 to 15 seconds to get it off?

Go watch a full game of the 1986 Celtics when you have a chance to see what a REAL efficient offense looks like! If a player had an open 20 footer with 14 seconds on the shot clock he was taking and making that shot. Compare that to today's league where I see guys having the same open look with the same amount of time on the clock but because of the "layup or 3" mentality he would rather pull it back and waste another 6 to 8 more seconds to try and get a contested 3 pointer! It is pathetic basketball and hard to watch most of the time!

The 86's Celtics could launch 25 3's in their sleep if they chose too and probably shot a higher percentage than anybody however, which team in today's league could play the sophisticated game those Celtics could?!? Any of the final four teams?!? NOT IN THEIR WILDEST DREAMS!

That's what happens when an ENTIRE generation neglects fundamentals and Dwight Howard is basically the strongest inside force the present league has!

The volume of three pointers taken in today's league is NOT evolution, it has become the ONLY efficient way modern teams can score due to all the factors I mentioned above and that in it self is truly a sad predicament!

[StephHamann]

I don't know how many there really are. I suppose I'd have to go team by team.

Would you call Aldridge a midrange player or a long two player?

I kinda enjoy him.

Monta Ellis is a midrange player

[HOoopCityJones]

Alex English with the soft touch doe.

[jayfan]

Rip Hamilton had a masterful mid-range game. Not sure of any since.




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[Fallen Angel]

saw the word unguardable in OP...

I'll escort myself out.

[Kblaze8855]

Obviously I don't literally mean unguardable. I mean it in the way that someone like even current Dirk is unguardable. When someone is comfortable taking the shots you almost can do nothing to prevent it's hard to effectively deny them.

He doesn't bother getting open. It may go in or it may not but he's hard to deny a shot that he wants. I consider most of defense denying a look your man is comfortable with.

Sometimes a guy just makes it tough shot that doesn't mean you didn't guard him well. Alex is one of those players who can at times make a living taking shots you don't mind most people taking. Kinda like Steph Curry though obviously in a different way.

[SHAQisGOAT]

You could surround English with shooters and he would slaughter teams.

He wasn't a good enough passer to have the offense run though him like that. And I'm not talking about about PPG. Just using your terms "slaughtering teams." Him as the focal point would not lead to a very effective team slaughtering others.....

Yes, he definitely was, English was a nice and willing passer. Definitely good enough passer to hve the offense run through him "like that".
This ain't even no Adrian Dantley we're talking about here (although AD was a better scorer). Alex was also a better passer than someone like Wilkins (who was a more impactful player), and I'd even say better passer than Worthy (who was already a nice passer).
Just by that comment I can see you don't know what you're talking about here, though.

If you had prime English right now on a team with solid enough floor-spacing (regular nowadays)... Yes, he'd SLAUGHTER teams inside that 3pt-line (even more developed 3pt-shot had he came up nowadays but that's another discussion).

Alex's game was also very fit to have as the focal point on good/great offensive teams, as proven in his high-paced Nuggets' days...

[Sarcastic]

Probably the biggest collection of Alex English gifs that I have ever seen.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Yes, he definitely was, English was a nice and willing passer. Definitely good enough passer to hve the offense run through him "like that"
This ain't even no Adrian Dantley we're talking about here (although AD was a better scorer). Alex was also a better passer than someone like Wilkins (who was a more impactful player), and I'd even say better passer than Worthy (who was already a nice passer).
Just by that comment I can see you don't know what you're talking about here, though.

If you had prime English right now on a team with solid enough floor-spacing (regular nowadays)... Yes, he'd SLAUGHTER teams inside that 3pt-line (even more developed 3pt-shot had he came up nowadays but that's another discussion).

Alex's game was also very fit to have as the focal point on good/great offensive teams, as proven in his high-paced Nuggets' days...

Just because he was a better passer than Worthy or Wilkins doesn't mean he was a good enough passer to have basically be the point forward on a team, and have the offense run through him and the team be successful. Defenses nowadays requires the small forward to handle the ball a lot more than Alex English ever could. And having him as the low post player surrounded by shooters wouldn't necessarily make the team effective. He would still score. But "slaughtering teams?"

Slaughtering teams to me implies at least getting to the Conference Finals at the bare minimum. And he was NEVER that kind of guy. Alex was a a guy who could score the ball efficiently in a high paced system. He was never a leader. He was never a a true "go to scorer" for crunchtime moments. And he definitely would not be "leading" teams for them to slaughter others.

He never had the demeanor for it.