3ball
06-02-2015, 03:14 PM
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Top 5 Reasons MJ > Lebron for when Lebron wins 2015 NBA Finals:
1) MJ played in "No-Spacing" Era:
Superior paint defense: Players didn't shoot 3-pointers in the 80's, so defenses got away with just guarding the paint
Help defenders were closer: By definition, when the floor is not spaced, help defenders are closer to each other - they don't have to "come over" to help because they're already there.
More defenders on strongside: No-spacing also meant MJ faced more defenders on the strongside of the court because there were no weakside floor-spreaders to draw them away (no spacing).
No spacing or weakside floor-spreaders allowed defenders to stay on the strongside, which routinely created 5-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21) that were already flooded with all 5 defenders.. Otoh, today's spacing and weakside floor-spreaders draw defenders away from the strongside, which routinely enables players to face 1-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570) - a totally different game altogether.. Today's game has fewer strongside defenders and is therefore easier.
2) MJ played superior competition - Stats and Roster Comparisons prove it
Stats Comparison: MJ defeated many more 50-win teams in the playoffs: 20 to Lebron's 7... That's almost 3 times as many.. MJ also faced more 60-win teams: 9 to 5..
Roster Comparisons: :
1) Isiah/Dumars/Dantley/Laimbeer/DPOY SF (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374199) Rodman/Salley/Mahorn/Vinnie/Edwards > anything Lebron ever faced.. The Spurs don't begin to compare to that depth, defense or combination of elite perimeter and post play.
2) In the 1998 Finals, the Utah Jazz had a 100.3 playoff defensive rating (DRtg) - that's far better than anything Lebron ever faced in the Finals.. That Jazz team destroyed a 56-win, Popovich/Duncan/Robinson Spurs team in 5 games, and then swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers in WCF.
3) Riley's 90's Knicks might have been the toughest defense ever behind the Bad Boys - the Knicks snap-made the Finals each time MJ retired, validating their championship caliber (only losing to Spurs because Ewing and his 18/10/2.6 blks was hurt and missed entire series).
4) The 1992 Blazers had 4 guys who were all-stars around that time: Drexler, Porter (91' and 93'), Duckworth (89' and 91'), Cliff Robinson (94').. Also, Buck Williams had been a 3-time all-star as well (82', 83', 86') - Williams got 11/9 in 1992 and was named All-NBA defense in 1992 (for 3rd year in a row and 6th time in his career).. So that's 5 all-star caliber players.
The Blazers were so stacked, the aforementioned Buck Williams, Duckworth, and Cliff Robinson were the Blazers' ROLE PLAYERS, even though they were all-star caliber.. This shows how much more talented they were then say, the Spurs, who succeed with role players like Patty Mills and Matt Bonner.. No comparison.. Blazers also had athletic wing defender and scorer Jerome Kersey, who won ring with Spurs in 99'.
5) The 1996 Sonics had prime DPOY Payton, Kemp and Schrempf (a 6'10, 3-point shooting, point-forward and 3-time All-Star in 93', 95', 97') - Lebron has never defeated a Big 3 this good - the 2012 Celtics don't count because that was post-Garnett injury, when everyone was injured and past their prime.. Whereas, the 1996 Sonics were in their uber-prime.
6) Shaq/Penny > Hibbert/George
7) 1993 Suns - Barkley/KJ/Majerle/Dumas/Chambers - Barkley/KJ cancel out Duncan/Parker, and the rest of the Suns role players DESTROY the Spurs Matt Bonner, Patty Mills, etc.
8) MJ led a massive upset versus the 2-seeded, 57-win Cavs and their 2nd ranked defense.. The Cavs had 3 All-stars (Nance, Price, Daughterty), and prime 20 PPG super-athlete Ron Harper, Hot Rod, and Ehlo.
3) MJ carried the heavier load, had less talented teammates
For his career, MJ averaged 25.1 shot attempts per game in the playoffs, compared to only 18.9 for Lebron.. Not only was MJ's scoring burden much higher, but thru the same age Lebron is now (30), MJ averaged more assists per game too in playoffs and Finals:
PLAYOFF AVERAGES THRU 30 YRS OLD:
JORDAN: 35 PPG / 7 APG / 50% FG
LEBRON: 28 PPG / 6 APG / 48% FG
FINALS AVERAGES THRU 30 YRS OLD:
JORDAN: 36 PPG / 8 APG / 53% FG
LEBRON: 24 PPG / 6 APG / 46% FG
The MINUTE Jordan got a teammate remotely close to all-star caliber, he went 6/6... That's all it took for GOAT 6/6 - just one all-star teammate.. No other player has done so much with so little.
Lebron needs 1.5 Finals games to match 1 from MJ (24 PPG to 36 PPG)..
As a sidenote, both pace and defensive ratings (DRtg) during Lebron's career (2005-2015) are exactly the same as the NBA in the 90's.
4) Rule Changes designed to lessen physicality & increase penetration:
Rule Changes: The creator and implementer of the new rules - the NBA - officially stated that the rule changes had succeeded in achieving their objective of making penetration easier.. This is not subjective opinion because it came from the source, just like Bill Gates vision for Microsoft would never have been considered subjective opinion:
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html
HAND-CHECKING/PHYSICALITY: Today's game bans hand-checking and various physicality, so defense is hands-off... But all these things were all legal in previous eras so defense was hands-ON.. Players today don't have to face the physicality of the Bad Boys or the Knicks.. Those were the toughest, most physically draining defenses of all time.
LEGAL PAINT-CAMPING: Unlike today's game, players in previous eras couldn't just get in the paint anytime they wanted - the legal paint camping often prevented players from entering the paint, and forced players to settle for mid-range jumpshots instead (as seen in GIF below):
http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e026bdb37635f1d39f79bf0ad068f961.gif
But today's defensive 3 seconds bans paint-camping.. The rule doesn't allow defenders to wait in the 16 x 19 foot painted area if no one is within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) (about 3 feet).
Otoh, in previous eras, Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed defenders to remain in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was anywhere inside the paint, or within 3 feet of either side.
5) Eye-Test: Lebron employs less SKILL and a less effective STYLE
Skill: Lebron's basic, drive-and-kick style is less adjustable and effective against good teams.. Whereas, MJ was elite at ALL aspects of scoring and used whatever scoring method would exploit the defense, including:
low post scoring (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10861649&postcount=3), off-ball play (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10862372&postcount=18), mid-range shooting (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11181251&postcount=44), mid-range repertoire (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10861764&postcount=7), drop-step ability (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10422917&postcount=172), rim attack (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353826), point guard ability (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games), beating perimeter double teams (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10699081&postcount=10), destroying screen roll shading (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358589&page=8), threading needles with tougher passes as required by no-spacing (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=355658&page=44), the MJ hop-step (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10906020&postcount=41)
Other collection (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11021030&postcount=6) of footage
Style: The eye-test shows that MJ's standard was to make quick decisions and act with very little wait time, which fits into any team.. Also, MJ's off-ball, highly-assisted style meant teammates were assisting HIM more, which increased their assists/playmaking opportunities - essentially, MJ's style made him a gold mine of assists for teammates.. His off-ball style not only allowed teammates to RETAIN their playmaking respnsibilities, but it opened up and expanded their playmaking game.
Otoh, Lebron's ball-dominant, highly unassisted style reduces teammates assists and playmaking opportunities, since they aren't assisting the team's #1 option as often.. Instead, Lebron's ball-dominant scoring style monopolizes the playmaking, which reduces Bosh, Love, and Wade's stats by turning them into bird-fed lames.. Otoh, the stats of MJ's teammates' (Pippen, Kukocs, Grant) barely changed when he left the lineup in 1994, because MJ's off-ball style allowed them to retain their playmaking duties and realize their maximum playmaking capacity ALONGSIDE HIM.
MJ's off-ball style simply realized more synergies with teammates, which resulted in a much higher ceiling for his team (6/6).
.
Top 5 Reasons MJ > Lebron for when Lebron wins 2015 NBA Finals:
1) MJ played in "No-Spacing" Era:
Superior paint defense: Players didn't shoot 3-pointers in the 80's, so defenses got away with just guarding the paint
Help defenders were closer: By definition, when the floor is not spaced, help defenders are closer to each other - they don't have to "come over" to help because they're already there.
More defenders on strongside: No-spacing also meant MJ faced more defenders on the strongside of the court because there were no weakside floor-spreaders to draw them away (no spacing).
No spacing or weakside floor-spreaders allowed defenders to stay on the strongside, which routinely created 5-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21) that were already flooded with all 5 defenders.. Otoh, today's spacing and weakside floor-spreaders draw defenders away from the strongside, which routinely enables players to face 1-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570) - a totally different game altogether.. Today's game has fewer strongside defenders and is therefore easier.
2) MJ played superior competition - Stats and Roster Comparisons prove it
Stats Comparison: MJ defeated many more 50-win teams in the playoffs: 20 to Lebron's 7... That's almost 3 times as many.. MJ also faced more 60-win teams: 9 to 5..
Roster Comparisons: :
1) Isiah/Dumars/Dantley/Laimbeer/DPOY SF (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374199) Rodman/Salley/Mahorn/Vinnie/Edwards > anything Lebron ever faced.. The Spurs don't begin to compare to that depth, defense or combination of elite perimeter and post play.
2) In the 1998 Finals, the Utah Jazz had a 100.3 playoff defensive rating (DRtg) - that's far better than anything Lebron ever faced in the Finals.. That Jazz team destroyed a 56-win, Popovich/Duncan/Robinson Spurs team in 5 games, and then swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers in WCF.
3) Riley's 90's Knicks might have been the toughest defense ever behind the Bad Boys - the Knicks snap-made the Finals each time MJ retired, validating their championship caliber (only losing to Spurs because Ewing and his 18/10/2.6 blks was hurt and missed entire series).
4) The 1992 Blazers had 4 guys who were all-stars around that time: Drexler, Porter (91' and 93'), Duckworth (89' and 91'), Cliff Robinson (94').. Also, Buck Williams had been a 3-time all-star as well (82', 83', 86') - Williams got 11/9 in 1992 and was named All-NBA defense in 1992 (for 3rd year in a row and 6th time in his career).. So that's 5 all-star caliber players.
The Blazers were so stacked, the aforementioned Buck Williams, Duckworth, and Cliff Robinson were the Blazers' ROLE PLAYERS, even though they were all-star caliber.. This shows how much more talented they were then say, the Spurs, who succeed with role players like Patty Mills and Matt Bonner.. No comparison.. Blazers also had athletic wing defender and scorer Jerome Kersey, who won ring with Spurs in 99'.
5) The 1996 Sonics had prime DPOY Payton, Kemp and Schrempf (a 6'10, 3-point shooting, point-forward and 3-time All-Star in 93', 95', 97') - Lebron has never defeated a Big 3 this good - the 2012 Celtics don't count because that was post-Garnett injury, when everyone was injured and past their prime.. Whereas, the 1996 Sonics were in their uber-prime.
6) Shaq/Penny > Hibbert/George
7) 1993 Suns - Barkley/KJ/Majerle/Dumas/Chambers - Barkley/KJ cancel out Duncan/Parker, and the rest of the Suns role players DESTROY the Spurs Matt Bonner, Patty Mills, etc.
8) MJ led a massive upset versus the 2-seeded, 57-win Cavs and their 2nd ranked defense.. The Cavs had 3 All-stars (Nance, Price, Daughterty), and prime 20 PPG super-athlete Ron Harper, Hot Rod, and Ehlo.
3) MJ carried the heavier load, had less talented teammates
For his career, MJ averaged 25.1 shot attempts per game in the playoffs, compared to only 18.9 for Lebron.. Not only was MJ's scoring burden much higher, but thru the same age Lebron is now (30), MJ averaged more assists per game too in playoffs and Finals:
PLAYOFF AVERAGES THRU 30 YRS OLD:
JORDAN: 35 PPG / 7 APG / 50% FG
LEBRON: 28 PPG / 6 APG / 48% FG
FINALS AVERAGES THRU 30 YRS OLD:
JORDAN: 36 PPG / 8 APG / 53% FG
LEBRON: 24 PPG / 6 APG / 46% FG
The MINUTE Jordan got a teammate remotely close to all-star caliber, he went 6/6... That's all it took for GOAT 6/6 - just one all-star teammate.. No other player has done so much with so little.
Lebron needs 1.5 Finals games to match 1 from MJ (24 PPG to 36 PPG)..
As a sidenote, both pace and defensive ratings (DRtg) during Lebron's career (2005-2015) are exactly the same as the NBA in the 90's.
4) Rule Changes designed to lessen physicality & increase penetration:
Rule Changes: The creator and implementer of the new rules - the NBA - officially stated that the rule changes had succeeded in achieving their objective of making penetration easier.. This is not subjective opinion because it came from the source, just like Bill Gates vision for Microsoft would never have been considered subjective opinion:
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html
HAND-CHECKING/PHYSICALITY: Today's game bans hand-checking and various physicality, so defense is hands-off... But all these things were all legal in previous eras so defense was hands-ON.. Players today don't have to face the physicality of the Bad Boys or the Knicks.. Those were the toughest, most physically draining defenses of all time.
LEGAL PAINT-CAMPING: Unlike today's game, players in previous eras couldn't just get in the paint anytime they wanted - the legal paint camping often prevented players from entering the paint, and forced players to settle for mid-range jumpshots instead (as seen in GIF below):
http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e026bdb37635f1d39f79bf0ad068f961.gif
But today's defensive 3 seconds bans paint-camping.. The rule doesn't allow defenders to wait in the 16 x 19 foot painted area if no one is within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) (about 3 feet).
Otoh, in previous eras, Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed defenders to remain in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was anywhere inside the paint, or within 3 feet of either side.
5) Eye-Test: Lebron employs less SKILL and a less effective STYLE
Skill: Lebron's basic, drive-and-kick style is less adjustable and effective against good teams.. Whereas, MJ was elite at ALL aspects of scoring and used whatever scoring method would exploit the defense, including:
low post scoring (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10861649&postcount=3), off-ball play (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10862372&postcount=18), mid-range shooting (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11181251&postcount=44), mid-range repertoire (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10861764&postcount=7), drop-step ability (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10422917&postcount=172), rim attack (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353826), point guard ability (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games), beating perimeter double teams (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10699081&postcount=10), destroying screen roll shading (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358589&page=8), threading needles with tougher passes as required by no-spacing (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=355658&page=44), the MJ hop-step (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10906020&postcount=41)
Other collection (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11021030&postcount=6) of footage
Style: The eye-test shows that MJ's standard was to make quick decisions and act with very little wait time, which fits into any team.. Also, MJ's off-ball, highly-assisted style meant teammates were assisting HIM more, which increased their assists/playmaking opportunities - essentially, MJ's style made him a gold mine of assists for teammates.. His off-ball style not only allowed teammates to RETAIN their playmaking respnsibilities, but it opened up and expanded their playmaking game.
Otoh, Lebron's ball-dominant, highly unassisted style reduces teammates assists and playmaking opportunities, since they aren't assisting the team's #1 option as often.. Instead, Lebron's ball-dominant scoring style monopolizes the playmaking, which reduces Bosh, Love, and Wade's stats by turning them into bird-fed lames.. Otoh, the stats of MJ's teammates' (Pippen, Kukocs, Grant) barely changed when he left the lineup in 1994, because MJ's off-ball style allowed them to retain their playmaking duties and realize their maximum playmaking capacity ALONGSIDE HIM.
MJ's off-ball style simply realized more synergies with teammates, which resulted in a much higher ceiling for his team (6/6).
.