Rank these SG's in their prime

[SHAQisGOAT]

Say, at their best, who would you want as a #1 option on your team...
From 1st to 6th.

> Sam Jones <
-won 10 rings, most times as a very good contributor
-twice top5 in MVP voting
-3x all-nba 2nd
-very good scorer, peaking at 26 PPG one season
-2x top5 in PPG, 3x top10 in FG%
-lots of good playoff runs
-clutch performer for the most winning dynasty
...

> Pete Maravich <
-in '77 was scoring champ (31 PPG without the 3pt line), all-nba 1st and 3rd in MVP voting
-best 2guard in the league for at least a couple of years, playing with one of the worst supporting casts you'll EVER see
-averaged like 27/5/6 throughout his prime, not what you'd call efficient but didn't have the 3pt line (great shooter with lots of range) and played with the "real" handchecking in a very physical, non-guard oriented league
-28 PPG on 45/82 vs the Celtics in 1972, in 6 games, was the main/major thing he done in the Playoffs, for the very few times he even got there
...

> Sidney Moncrief <
-2x DPOY, only guard who won it more than once
-all-nba 1st and 4th in MVP voting once, best SG in the league at some point
-could average around 21/6/5 on close to .600 TS% playing the most elite on-ball defense
-led multiple 50+W teams
-had some great post-season runs, made conference Finals twice as the best player on his team
...

> Mitch Richmmond <
-3x all-nba 2nd
-1997 probably his best year, which he was 5th in scoring, 7th in OWS, averaging 26/4/4 on .578 TS%
-receives plenty of praise from some of his contemporaries
-6x all-star
-only made the Playoffs 4 times, and didn't do much there
-they just got him in the HoF last year
...

> Vince Carter <
-was all-nba 2nd in 2001, putting up 27.6/5.5/3.9/1.5/1.1 on .509 eFG%, 2nd in PER, then made it to the semi-finals
-two pretty good post-season runs in 2001 and 2006
-8x all-star
-been in the league for more than 15 years
-GOAT dunker
...

> James Harden <
-fresh off from being 2nd in MVP voting this year, all-nba 1st as the best SG in the league
-led a team to 56W putting up 27/6/7 on 44/38/87
-2nd in PPG, 9th in APG, 6th in SPG this past regular-season
-made it to the conference finals
...

[TheReal Kendall]

Harden
Carter
Mitch
Jones
Maravich
Moncrief

[Legends66NBA7]

1) James Harden
2) Sidney Moncrief
3) Vince Carter
4) Sam Jones
5) Pete Maravich
6) Mitch Richmond

Harden will probably establish higher levels and I think this past season was better than anybody else on this list has ever done, with the exception of maybe Moncrief (I guess you can make an argument).

Moncrief was the best 2 way player of the group, only thing that holds him back are his injuries but was good to take the #2 spot. Vince just got edged out, his longevity has so far been the best and he was a very capable guard, had his clutch moments (facts back this up) but never had a great cast around him during his prime and when he did get to a great cast, he wasnt in his prime anymore.

Jones probably is the clutchest player overall, but was never the main guy and I think if guys like Harden, Moncrief, and Vince were in his place they would probably have their share of rings too IMO.

Maravich is overrated IMO, and while he did have a great season when he led the league in scoring, it just never translated in the post season (although never really had the talent around until after his prime). Richmond is the same thing, but I think he is somewhat forgotten these days.

[Ruler]

Prime Manu Ginobili. I wouldnt want him as my #1 option, but as a second you can have an instant perennial title contender.

My list is the same as Legends, so no need to post it again.

[SHAQisGOAT]

1) James Harden
2) Sidney Moncrief
3) Vince Carter
4) Sam Jones
5) Pete Maravich
6) Mitch Richmond

Harden will probably establish higher levels and I think this past season was better than anybody else on this list has ever done, with the exception of maybe Moncrief (I guess you can make an argument).

Moncrief was the best 2 way player of the group, only thing that holds him back are his injuries but was good to take the #2 spot. Vince just got edged out, his longevity has so far been the best and he was a very capable guard, had his clutch moments (facts back this up) but never had a great cast around him during his prime and when he did get to a great cast, he wasnt in his prime anymore.

Jones probably is the clutchest player overall, but was never the main guy and I think if guys like Harden, Moncrief, and Vince were in his place they would probably have their share of rings too IMO.

Maravich is overrated IMO, and while he did have a great season when he led the league in scoring, it just never translated in the post season (although never really had the talent around until after his prime). Richmond is the same thing, but I think he is somewhat forgotten these days.

I was talking more about primes here.

I feel like James Harden still has to show/do/improve more before he can clearly lead this sort of list, I also believe he wouldn't be quite as effective or ranked as high in other eras... But can't deny he just had a great season, doing a whole lot, still young too, and already amongst the top in lists like these...

----

Sidney didn't have the longevity due to injuries but it was still enough to show and do plenty...
He had some great teammates, great coach and a great system but still was their best player/leader for some years while winning more than anybody on this list.
I mean, for his 5 prime years, the Bucks were always a 50+W team, winning as much as 59 in 1985. Reached 2 Conference Finals, would've made the Finals in a weaker era/conference.

Dude was great all-around, offering around 20/6/5 with great efficiency and GOAT-level on-ball perimeter defense at guard.
Led the Bucks in points, assists and rebounds in '82... Very few guards have ever done that type of stuff.
Had plenty of very good post-season's runs, including 23/4/5 on .697 TS% in 1985, outplaying rookie Jordan along the way.

Got 2 DPOY's to show for, plenty of all-defensive, 5x all-nba once 1st, 5x top8 in MVP voting, 4th once in a league with Moses, Bird, Kareem, Magic, Dr J, Gervin...

----

Agree with you on Sam Jones.

----

Maravich, I feel like he gets overrated by people who look at flashiness and a visual aesthetic game more than anything else, but also gets underrated by some who think he was all flash and no substance...

Despite all the talent he had used in "wrong ways" many times, due to being a star "bored" with the game since early on, coached by his father, so on; then never having a coach to change his ways in the pros, while landing in a team where he just didn't fit...

... You look at his 1977 season, for example, with an expansion team, and realize it was pretty great and should be praised more:
-1st in scoring, 1st all-nba, 3rd in MVP voted by the players
-He scored 4.5 PPG more than the next best scorer in the league, without a 3pt-line while having 4pt-range
-Jazz finished 35-47 and went 34-39 in the games he played, so 1-8 without him
-Put up 36.4 PPG on 34W's and 26.6 on 39L's
-Scored 50 or more points 4 times, NO winning all of those games; scored 40+ 13x as the Jazz went 10-3; and 30+ 39 times, with them going 25-14
-Nobody on that team was more than an average 15 PPG scorer at most, next best after Pete scored 12 on 45%

Pistol was doing WAY TOO MUCH, carrying all the baggage...

They were coached by Van Breda who was far from special, hard headed and never coached in the NBA again, then Elgin Baylor stepped up, inexperienced, poor coach who never got another job.

Look at his teammates for ****s sake:
-Goodrich was injured for the season
-Nate Williams, their 2nd option was average at best and only spent 2 more years in the league
-Aaron James was out of the league 3 years after it
-EC Coleman was a very good defender but not anything else, out of the league by '79
-Freddie Boyd only spent 6 seasons in the league and did very little
-Otto Moore was (only) a shotblocker/rebounder in his final season
-Paul Griffin was a rookie, only spent 7 seasons in the league, not doing much
-Rich Kelley was a serviceable center at some point but not even then
-Jim McElroy wasn't bad but tht's not saying much, wasn't long in the league
...
I mean, bunch of no-namers there, one of the VERY WORST supporting casts you'll see for an all-time great and they were like 7-wins away from making the Playoffs.

League was physical af back then, real hand-checking in play, no 3pt line, paint more packed, non-guard oriented...
Teams just had to focus everything to stop the Pistol, and he still averaged 31 on 43% with all the "circumstances" above, keeping them honest with his very good passing skills and killing them with great scoring. Dropped 68 once, even.

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Carter has the best longevity here and although having a great peaks, I feel like it's not quite there with the cream of the crop SG's. Still, he was balling in his prime, in a great era for SG's, plays for a long time and made lots of clutch shots like you've said, certainly left his mark in the game too.

----

I feel like Mitch gets forgotten amongst the mix of the best SG's but also overrated by many... He didn't do all that much in terms of the best 2guards, when it comes to the regular or post season. Not denying The Rock was a great player but, for example, I believe it's shameful that he got into the HoF before a dude like Moncrief.

[Cold soul]

1) James Harden
2) Vince Carter
3) Sidney Moncrief
4) Mitch Richmond
5) Pete Maravich
6) Sam Jones

[kshutts1]

As the #1 option in today's game?

Pistol
Harden
Mitch
Vince
Moncrief
Jones

I guess?

Now, if I was being asked for them to be the "best player" on my team, then the list is probably inverted. But from a first option, I want the ability to score and shoot really well, and I'm not too worried about D.

[L.Kizzle]

This is easy, as a number 1 option. Some of these players are better suited as a #2 option. No knock on any of them.

1. Vince Carter
2. Pistol
3. Harden
4. Rock
5. Sidney
6. Jones

Now, this list is not how they are ranked all time. As I have Sam Jones at the top of that list. Was a perfect fit to Boston with many guys around him.

[avonbarksdale]

This is easy, as a number 1 option. Some of these players are better suited as a #2 option. No knock on any of them.

1. Vince Carter
2. Pistol
3. Harden
4. Rock
5. Sidney
6. Jones

Now, this list is not how they are ranked all time. As I have Sam Jones at the top of that list. Was a perfect fit to Boston with many guys around him.


harden just took a team to the conference finals

did vince do that?

[hitmanyr2k]

harden just took a team to the conference finals

did vince do that?

Let's be honest. Harden should have taken his team to a 2nd round exit. He was super-glued to the bench for just about the entire 4th qtr in an elimination game while his team staged a miraculous comeback and saved his ass from a Game 6 loss and an earlier vacation.

[ClipperRevival]

Shaqisgoat,

What type of defender was Moncrief? I ask because his career steals numbers aren't great. Usually, elite perimeter defenders are able to give you 1.8-2.5 steals per game. Moncrief hovered around 1.5-1.7 at his peak. Was he more of a stay at home type defender? The type who always tried to keep his man in front of him without gambling too much? I am in no way down grading the guy. Just wondering.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Shaqisgoat,

What type of defender was Moncrief? I ask because his career steals numbers aren't great. Usually, elite perimeter defenders are able to give you 1.8-2.5 steals per game. Moncrief hovered around 1.5-1.7 at his peak. Was he more of a stay at home type defender? The type who always tried to keep his man in front of him without gambling too much? I am in no way down grading the guy. Just wondering.

Yup, you basically got it there.

Sid gambled very little, playing that straight up lockdown defense.
Most steals he got were from playing ball-denial and the passing lanes, easily more than - gambling and - stripping his own man of the ball on his possession.

Before, I've found/posted some early-to-mid 80's top SG's scoring stats vs Moncrief; 2nd post here:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=312018

Like you've said, Moncrief in his prime was "only" getting like 1.5 steals per game... You got a dude like Alvin Robertson who could average over 3 SPG but he wasn't that close to being the same overall defensive player Sidney was, not the same impact.
Michael Cooper wasn't averaging many steals either, but I think he got more by way of stealing from his own assignment, than Sidney - got plenty on the passing lanes too, though.

The thing was also that Sid would play some terrific on-ball perimeter D on ya, turn around and he's killing you on the other end, even on the boards.

[L.Kizzle]

harden just took a team to the conference finals

did vince do that?
I watched both play, prime VC was better.

[LAZERUSS]

Pistol Pete would have been a stud in the current NBA. He would easily have adapted to the 3pt line (hell, he went 10-15 in his last season), and I have no doubt, that under similar circumstances, that he would have easily put up Harden or Westbrook numbers.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Pistol Pete would have been a stud in the current NBA. He would easily have adapted to the 3pt line (hell, he went 10-15 in his last season), and I have no doubt, that under similar circumstances, that he would have easily put up Harden or Westbrook numbers.

He definitely would've been much more suited for today's game, so I'd say better/more impactful too, had he played right now.
3pt-line and major emphasis on it, guard oriented game, no hand-checking, much looser dribbling "rules", floor more spread out on average, assists given out more easily, superstars ruling the show, flashy basketball much more celebrated (talking even by coaches and players) and more "effective", much more showboating, players much more susceptive to flashy passes...
If he kept/had his same "ways", I don't know about the winning part and I won't comment on it but as a 6'5 barefooted, nice athlete SG with great all-around shooting touch and lots of range, able and willing to pull up for any shot, with very high scoring IQ and skill-set, with the ability to finish in the paint and even post-up, with tremendous dribbling skills, great passing capabilities, with the talent to pull many moves and be crazy inventive, with a flashy type of basketball that few have ever shown... You can say he was definitely born in the wrong time, league now is tailor-made for him.

That wasn't my question here though...

[JohnFreeman]

Jordan
Kobe
Wade

[ClipperRevival]

Yup, you basically got it there.

Sid gambled very little, playing that straight up lockdown defense.
Most steals he got were from playing ball-denial and the passing lanes, easily more than - gambling and - stripping his own man of the ball on his possession.

Before, I've found/posted some early-to-mid 80's top SG's scoring stats vs Moncrief; 2nd post here:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=312018

Like you've said, Moncrief in his prime was "only" getting like 1.5 steals per game... You got a dude like Alvin Robertson who could average over 3 SPG but he wasn't that close to being the same overall defensive player Sidney was, not the same impact.
Michael Cooper wasn't averaging many steals either, but I think he got more by way of stealing from his own assignment, than Sidney - got plenty on the passing lanes too, though.

The thing was also that Sid would play some terrific on-ball perimeter D on ya, turn around and he's killing you on the other end, even on the boards.

Cool. That's the type of D I like to play. I take pride in keeping my man in front of me.

But Sidney is listed as 6'3" so I'm assuming he was about 6'2" without shoes? And maybe he didn't have the longest arms? Which might explain his low steal totals?

[SHAQisGOAT]

Cool. That's the type of D I like to play. I take pride in keeping my man in front of me.

But Sidney is listed as 6'3" so I'm assuming he was about 6'2" without shoes? And maybe he didn't have the longest arms? Which might explain his low steal totals?

Some will say that that's the best type.

6'2? No, not at all. Some places you'll see him listed at 6'4, and that's about what he was w/o shoes.
Dumars was someone who's about 6'3 barefooted, while Moncrief was taller.
Easy to tell that Sidney was about the same height as someone like D-Wade, who's very close to 6'4 barefooted... And I bring him up because that's a 2guard whose athleticism/physique is pretty similar to Sid's, and his offensive game is the follows that same path. I always say that Wade's like Moncrief on steroids on offense while gambling more on D and being better off-ball defensively but Sidney was considerably better overall on the defensive end; they're both great rebounders for the position too.
And, also like Wade, Moncrief had pretty long arms, which "compensated" for his height against taller SG's, same as for Dwyane.
Like I've said, not much steals were just because he gambled very little.

Speaking of which, Sid's teammate, Paul Pressey was like 6'5 w/shoes and had a crazy wingspan... And that's a dude who wasn't even gambling all that much (more than Moncrief still) but was able to average over 2 SPG per36 due to his extremely long arms and hands; great defensive player too, and could guard them taller guys, playing SF.

Highlights of Moncrief, with interview and info at the beginning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ADAo3W4Hos
Sidney and Pressey's short single-game highlights vs the Bulls and vs the Pistons, in '85:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm1EEsgoITE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmO4HeqkoOU
Moncrief's (and plenty more) extensive highlights vs the Bulls in '85, in the Playoffs, guarding MJ:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFV59cFZi-U

[FKAri]

I watched both play, prime VC was better.

I dunno, maybe. hard to say what Vince's prime was. I think his best was 2001 with Toronto. He was smarter in NJ but lacked that same explosiveness before any of the injuries. Injury-free VC's prime would've looked really nice.

[Fallen Angel]

Only SGs to average 27 ppg and 7 apg:

Michael Jordan, Dwyane Wade, and James Harden

Only Harden lead his team to 50 wins and got out the first round during that season.