1991 Los Angeles Lakers with a 1985 version of Kareem Abdul Jabbar

[Lebron23]

Do you think they beat the 1991 Chicago Bulls in the NBA Finals??


http://outsidethehype.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/090213_1628_GreatestPer3.jpg

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[3ball]

Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991 - his averages were 19/7/13 on 63% TS.. :eek:

Worthy was 3rd Team All-NBA.

Honestly, I think Magic/Worthy/Green - who were all-stars in 1991 - plus Byron Scott/Vlade Divac/Elden Campbell/Sam Perkins >>>> any Spurs team...

I think the drop-off in eras is THAT much - think about it - the Spurs won most of their rings in during the same time period that the NBA couldn't beat Euroleague.. Litereally - the NBA lost to Euroleague 7 times from 2002-2006, with the likes of Lebron, Wade, Duncan, CP3, Dwight, Bosh, prime Amare, etc..

The USA's skills and brand of basketball was SO bad, that it more than offset their GOAT talent advantage.. This is the NBA the Spurs ruled - the NBA that couldn't beat Euroleague, to the point of being mocked (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373182).. Whereas the Lakers ruled a tougher league and the fact that their talent matches up so well with the Spurs is a demonstration of the superior player that existed back then.
.

[Sarcastic]

Jordan would still win, and it would improve his legacy that much more.

[Showtime80']

It may give the Lakers 1 or 2 more wins but I don't think they beat the Bulls. Have to remember that Magic and Worthy were older and with a lot of mileage in 1991, Byron Scott had regressed a lot offensively and there was NO Michael Cooper to through at MJ and Pip on defense. I always thought one mistake in that series was NOT playing Elden Campbell more, he could've had a Worthy 84' Finals type of series with Magic feeding him the ball. He would've been a matchup problem for the Bulls front court.

1987 is a different story, Kareem could still dominate for stretches and the quartet of Magic, Worthy, Scott and Green where at their absolute peak as a unit with guys like Rambis, Coop, Mathews, Branch, Thompson and Mychael Thompson coming off the bench providing a nice blend of youth, athleticism and experience.

91 Lakers with 85 Kareem lose in 6 to 7 games, 87' Lakers spank the 91 Bulls in 4 to 6 games at the most

[SHAQisGOAT]

Hmm... Hard to say. If he played like he did for the 1985 Finals, they would've had MUCH improved chances, I'll tell you that much.

Some people don't even realize Kareem had one of the GOAT Finals in '85, at 38 years old...
Talking about 25.7 PPG, 9.0 RPG, 5.2 APG, 1.0 SPG, 1.5 BPG on 60.4% FG, 76.9% FT, in only 35.5 MPG, 2.8 TO's :bowdown:

^And that's even after a game1 where he played like total shit and the Lakers got blowned outta the gym; then he said he was coming back better than ever and certainly did, torching Parish and McHale, killing the C's.
Go watch those games, he was terrific, Celtics stood no chances without a healthy Bird.

If he that against '85 Parish/McHale he would've done even more vs '91 Cartwright/Grant...

I'm guessing you mean Kareem instead of Divac though? I don't know, I still think they would've needed more, like adding a healthy Worthy or a healthy Scott, or prime Cooper still there off the bench...
Simply adding '85 Kareem to the '91 Lakers? They probably win it but would've still been tough af and you could argue tht the opposite was just as possible...

[L.Kizzle]

A still all-star version of Kareem >>> Divac/Elden Campbell. 85 Kareem was Finals MVP, All-NBA 2nd team and 22/8 in the regular season/playoffs and even better in the Finals at 26/9.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991 - his averages were 19/7/13 on 63% TS.. :eek:

Worthy was 3rd Team All-NBA.

Honestly, I think Magic/Worthy/Green - who were all-stars in 1991 - plus Byron Scott/Vlade Divac/Elden Campbell/Sam Perkins >>>> any Spurs team...

I think the drop-off in eras is THAT much - think about it - the Spurs won most of their rings in during the same time period that the NBA couldn't beat Euroleague.. Litereally - the NBA lost to Euroleague 7 times from 2002-2006, with the likes of Lebron, Wade, Duncan, CP3, Dwight, Bosh, prime Amare, etc..

The USA's skills and brand of basketball was SO bad, that it more than offset their GOAT talent advantage.. This is the NBA the Spurs ruled - the NBA that couldn't beat Euroleague, to the point of being mocked (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373182).. Whereas the Lakers ruled a tougher league and the fact that their talent matches up so well with the Spurs is a demonstration of the superior player that existed back then.
.

Did you devour Kenneth's essence or something? What the hell are you even going on about? No one even brought up the Spurs in this thread, dude.

:wtf:

You're ****ing losing it, man. This is a discussion about '85 Kareem being transported in time to the '91 Lakers against the Bulls. The Spurs don't even enter the equation and have absolutely no bearing on the discussion at hand.

Anyways, as for the topic. I believe just a healthy Lakers team that year instead of an injury riddled one is enough to spank that Bulls team. Magic was already bending over Mr. 1-9 in the post until thick dick Pip came to the rescue. Everyone healthy? It's a wrap, folks.

[bootsy]

The Lakers win that series. They weren't that far off from winning a couple of more games then they did win in that series anyway.

[3ball]

No one even brought up the Spurs in this thread, dude.


True, but just pointing out that Magic/Worthy/Green - who were all-stars in 1991 - plus Byron Scott/Vlade Divac/Elden Campbell/Sam Perkins compare quite favorably to any Spurs roster.. :confusedshrug:.. Infact, most of those guys are Spurs-type of player (Perkins, Vlade, Scott) - the Spurs would kill for any of those players.. They are big upgrades from Bellinelli, Diaw, Green.

Anyway, regarding Kareem, MJ's Bulls get beat if you add prime Kareem to the aforementioned 1991 mix.. Not sure how you get around that... A prime Kareem on the 1991 Lakers would be the most stacked team of all time, just like the 80's Lakers.. MJ would actually need... gasp... MORE HELP!!..

I doubt he'd need a bevy of all-stars around him like Bird did though, or an all-time great center like Shaq, or hand-select a team of all-stars like Lebron... He'd probably just need one more decent piece.. Like Otis Thorpe or something.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

True, but just pointing out that Magic/Worthy/Green - who were all-stars in 1991 - plus Byron Scott/Vlade Divac/Elden Campbell/Sam Perkins compare quite favorably to any Spurs roster.. :confusedshrug:.. Infact, most of those guys are Spurs-type of player (Perkins, Vlade, Scott) - the Spurs would kill for any of those players.. They are big upgrades from Bellinelli, Diaw, Green.

So Lakers are more stacked than the Spurs teams Duncan carried and won same amount of rings with no other top 10 player. What else you gonna tell me, almighty 3ball? The Earth is round? The Sun is hot?

:hammerhead:

[Angel Face]

Bulls in 6, Jordan - Pip duo too good for em.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kareem, a Top 2 or 3 player all-time, was still incredibly productive in '85. Don't see anyone on the Bulls stopping the mismatches he would pose.

Lakers in 6 or 7.

[eliteballer]

They might well have beat the Bulls if Worthy wasn't injured going into the series and Scott didn't get injured either. Add Kareem, forget about it.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

They might well have beat the Bulls if Worthy wasn't injured going into the series and Scott didn't get injured either. Add Kareem, forget about it.

:cheers:

[bizil]

I don't think so. Magic was still a top 2-3 player in the world at the time. Kareem would have been among the top 4 centers in the world. But the team simply wasn't as complete as it was before. The Lakers overachieved that year JUST MAKING the Finals. If Magic NEVER would have retired, he would have put up epic numbers. But in terms of winning rings, it was simply the Bulls time.

[ClipperRevival]

Who knows. Jabbar would've obviously made the Lakers better but they still didn't have anyone that could check MJ and Pip. And the Lakers were an aging team by then, not by age but by a decade straight of deep, playoff runs. And they weren't even supposed to make the finals that year. Portland was clearly the favorite to make the finals.

I think Bulls in 7, playing at home. Let's not forget one of the strengths of the Lakers were their bigs in Vlade and Perkins. Jabbar is obviously better but what the Lakers needed was a great wing defender. It was MJ's time.

[LAZERUSS]

They might well have beat the Bulls if Worthy wasn't injured going into the series and Scott didn't get injured either. Add Kareem, forget about it.

This.

Not only that, but Worthy was in a state of rapid decline, despite his relatively young age. Same with Scott. And without Magic the very next year, both were basically done.

We'll never know of course, but it would have been much more interesting had the 80's Lakers and Celtics played in the 90's against MJ's Bulls. Add in the Sixers from the first half of the decade of the 80's (particularly the '83 team with Moses), and the Bad Boys from the last half of that decade, and I seriously doubt the Bulls win six titles in the 90's.

[Showtime80']

Excellent point Lazeruss!

That's why to me the 87' Lakers were the most lethal outfit, except for Kareem everybody else was in their physical prime and remember they got Mychael Thompson after the all star break. Had he been with them the whole season they might have gone for 70 specially since it was a down year for the West in general.

And even as a die hard Lakers fan I admit that the best team of all time is the 86' Celtics. You have to spent time to watch that squad on YouTube. I call it the UNFAIR TEAM with three hall of famers hitting their prime at the same time in Bird, McHale and Parish along with an all star back court of Danny Ainge and DJ along with a bench of Wedmann, Sichting and the ultimate piece that made that team so unbelievable Bill Walton who in a limited role hopped in a time machine and was playing as well as he did in 1978!

It's amazing how that team handled the brute strength and athleticism of the Rockets front court in the Finals with fundamental and savvy play!

[OldSchoolBBall]

91 Lakers with 85 Kareem lose in 6 to 7 games, 87' Lakers spank the 91 Bulls in 4 to 6 games at the most

No. '87 Lakers would win about 60% of the time (they just had a lot more talent), but lol @ 4 games. That series goes at least 6 games basically every time.

EDIT: lol @ anyone thinking that healthy Worthy would make a difference in 1991. That Bulls team was a team of destiny and weren't going to be denied. Yeah, if they came up against a top 5 all time team (like the '87 Lakers or '86 Celtics) perhaps they would have lost - but the 1991 Lakers weren't even close to that level, even with Worthy healthy.

[3ball]

The Lakers overachieved that year JUST MAKING the Finals.


That shows you how tough the league was at the time - a team of Magic Johnson/James Worthy/AC Green/Byron Scott/Vlade Divac/Elden Campbell/Sam Perkins is a big underdog to make the Finals.

Again, by comparison, the none of the Spurs championship teams had 7 players that were ALL this high caliber.. The Lakers role players (Scott, Perkins, Vlade) were deluxe versions of the role players the Spurs had (Green, Bonner, Diaw).

In 1991, Portland's super-stacked team was supposed to easily take out these Lakers and return to the Finals... But Magic though... Just too good... :facepalm :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZnLgYfhhKw&t=0m6s
.

[andgar923]

Didn't MJ have a winning record vs Kareem?

*too lazy to check*

[32jazz]

Who knows. Jabbar would've obviously made the Lakers better but they still didn't have anyone that could check MJ and Pip. And the Lakers were an aging team by then, not by age but by a decade straight of deep, playoff runs. And they weren't even supposed to make the finals that year. Portland was clearly the favorite to make the finals.

I think Bulls in 7, playing at home. Let's not forget one of the strengths of the Lakers were their bigs in Vlade and Perkins. Jabbar is obviously better but what the Lakers needed was a great wing defender.

Great assessment. I don't feel as if though a 38 year old Kareem (who struggled at times)was enough . Pippen & Jordan on the wings were far too versatile & "the future" for the old school slasher in Worthy & the smaller jump shooting sg Scott.

1989 the Lakers (injuries) were swept. 1990 they were run in the 2nd round in only 5 games to the Suns. 1991 they upset the Blazers & lost in 5 again.


It was the same team swept in 89 & nearly swept in 90 sans an aging Kareem /Thompson ,but Worthy ,Magic & Scott 3 years older & just add a rookie Elden Campbell & Divac.


They may make a better showing if healthy , but not win it.

Bulls in 6 or 7.

[dunksby]

Kareem would tear the Bulls a new one, and that's a 38-year-old Kareem, It's too bitter for Laz to swallow though, his idol didn't have enough of it to beat MJ.

[Tarik One]

The Lakers win that series. They weren't that far off from winning a couple of more games then they did win in that series anyway.
The Lakers got handled decisively in that series. Hell, they got swept on their home floor...

[32jazz]

This.

Not only that, but Worthy was in a state of rapid decline, despite his relatively young age. Same with Scott. And without Magic the very next year, both were basically done.

We'll never know of course, but it would have been much more interesting had the 80's Lakers and Celtics played in the 90's against MJ's Bulls. Add in the Sixers from the first half of the decade of the 80's (particularly the '83 team with Moses), and the Bad Boys from the last half of that decade, and I seriously doubt the Bulls win six titles in the 90's.

Worthy & Scott were throwbacks at their position & fell off the map after Magic retired.

Magic (like Lebron ) was taking the Lakers to places they did not belong.


It was time for the Lakers to begin retooling after 1989/90 exits.



An aging Magic needed help on the wings.


Mitch Richmond was traded in 91 for Billy Owens.

1992 the Lakers missed out on Sprewell(24th) & picked Anthony Peeler.

[Showtime80']

Give me a break with that "throwback" BS, prime a Worthy and Scott would've been lethal in ANY era. Look at what a guy like Russell Westbrick is doing in today's league and he's basically a slasher wit a weak jumper.

Put the 87' Lakers in there and all of a sudden you've got a very interesting dilemma on your hands, you put Scottie on Magic and basically Worthy is taking turns slashing, posting up or draining jumpers on the head of Grant or Michael while Scott makes Jordan work at the defensive end. Put Pippen on Worthy and Magic is getting either Michael or Horace in foul trouble while Scott rapes Paxson. The Lakers had the offensive firepower to guard EVERYBODY one on one, let Michael go for 40, Pip for 25 and shut down everybody else. You're not beating the 87' Lakers scoring under 110!

Haven't even begun to assess the Lakers fast break, Kareem vs Cartwright and the benches which ALL favor the 87' Lakers!

[SHAQisGOAT]

Worthy & Scott were throwbacks at their position & fell off the map after Magic retired.

Magic (like Lebron ) was taking the Lakers to places they did not belong.


It was time for the Lakers to begin retooling after 1989/90 exits.



An aging Magic needed help on the wings.


Mitch Richmond was traded in 91 for Billy Owens.

1992 the Lakers missed out on Sprewell(24th) & picked Anthony Peeler.

Throwbacks??
Maybe Worthy but then again don't see the need to call an athletic wing who could play on the break like a beast, finish extremely well and with a good post-up game and killer 1st step, a throwback... And he could also rebound, pass, play defense, hit some J's, FT's...
And Byron was a very athletic SG with a jumper with plenty of range on it, call that a throwback? :confusedshrug:

Scott still kept the same '91 level in '92 w/o Magic, then just got old, banged up and faded away. He was injured for the '91 Finals, pretty known fact, that took a toll then.

Worthy had a high ankle injury during the '91 playoffs and then dealt with season-ending knee surgery in '92, which took away a considerable amount of his quickness and leaping ability, 2 major thing in his game. He was still playing well in '92 but injuries and mileage caught up to him, just couldn't hold up those knees anymore, and retired in '94.

Not saying Magic didn't vastly improve his teammates but let's not overrate that... Worthy and Scott were very good players, at least, on their own.

[32jazz]

Give me a break with that "throwback" BS, prime a Worthy and Scott would've been lethal in ANY era. Look at what a guy like Russell Westbrick is doing in today's league and he's basically a slasher wit a weak jumper.

Put the 87' Lakers in there and all of a sudden you've got a very interesting dilemma on your hands, you put Scottie on Magic and basically Worthy is taking turns slashing, posting up or draining jumpers on the head of Grant or Michael while Scott makes Jordan work at the defensive end. Put Pippen on Worthy and Magic is getting either Michael or Horace in foul trouble while Scott rapes Paxson. The Lakers had the offensive firepower to guard EVERYBODY one on one, let Michael go for 40, Pip for 25 and shut down everybody else. You're not beating the 87' Lakers scoring under 110!

Haven't even begun to assess the Lakers fast break, Kareem vs Cartwright and the benches which ALL favor the 87' Lakers!

Are we talking about 1991 or 87? Where did I say Worthy can't play in this era? What so offensive about a throw back player?

He asked about putting a 38 year old Kareem with a Lakers trio who was 4 years older & had been swept in 89, nearly swept (5 games)in the 2nd in 90 & as underdogs nearly swept again in 91 after upsetting Portland.


All I'm saying is time for that team to retool instead of chasing a similar formula from 1987.

Rookie Campbell & Divac were no Kareem/Thompson.

Realistically no 7 footer was going to fall into the Lakers laps any time soon. As that team was constructed the Lakers were done & a frustrated Magic was hinting about retirement after another beatdown.


Magic needed help on the wings with players more versatile than Scott(MJ) & Worthy(Pippen) to beat this Bulls team.


You need to let 87 go .

[jlip]

If the 1991 Lakers had the 1985 Finals version of Kareem and a completely healthy Worthy and Scott I'm picking the Lakers in 6 or 7.

[Duncan21formvp]

The Lakers would have needed Kareem from 1971 to 1980 to have had a chance to just take the series 6. 1985 Kareem was a little bit better than 1991 Divac.

[32jazz]

Throwbacks??
Maybe Worthy but then again don't see the need to call an athletic wing who could play on the break like a beast, finish extremely well and with a good post-up game and killer 1st step, a throwback... And he could also rebound, pass, play defense, hit some J's, FT's...
And Byron was a very athletic SG with a jumper with plenty of range on it, call that a throwback? :confusedshrug:

Scott still kept the same '91 level in '92 w/o Magic, then just got old, banged up and faded away. He was injured for the '91 Finals, pretty known fact, that took a toll then.

Worthy had a high ankle injury during the '91 playoffs and then dealt with season-ending knee surgery in '92, which took away a considerable amount of his quickness and leaping ability, 2 major thing in his game. He was still playing well in '92 but injuries and mileage caught up to him, just couldn't hold up those knees anymore, and retired in '94.
.

Yes Worthy was a throwback small forward & even Pat Riley agrees that the new sf that followed Worthy has an entirely different game set: Pippen, Grant Hill, Sean Elliot Tmac,Lebron ,etc.....Many lesser SF's simply have a different skill set . I'm not saying any are better.

Worthy does not have that skill set & has notthing to do with how fast he can get down the floor on a fast break or finish around the basket .

Worhty was not a player comfortable on the perimeter & he tried to open his game up more later on ,but the fact is he wasnt as versatile a player as a Pippen.

The Lakers were barely a playoff team in the relatively weak West w/o Magic.

Lakers effeiciancy plummeted without Magic although he was replaced by a good guard in Sedale Threatt.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Yes Worthy was a throwback small forward & even Pat Riley agrees that the new sf that followed Worthy has an entirely different game set: Pippen, Grant Hill, Sean Elliot Tmac,Lebron ,etc.....Many lesser SF's simply have a different skill set . I'm not saying any are better.

Worthy does not have that skill set & has notthing to do with how fast he can get down the floor on a fast break or finish around the basket .

Worhty was not a player comfortable on the perimeter & he tried to open his game up more later on ,but the fact is he wasnt as versatile a player as a Pippen.

The Lakers were barely a playoff team in the relatively weak West w/o Magic.

Lakers effeiciancy plummeted without Magic although he was replaced by a good guard in Sedale Threatt.

Not that BIG of a difference as you make it seem, from guys like that... Certainly not what you'd call a "true" throwback, but one could make a case.
1st of all he was 6'9 which is tall for the position, he was pretty athletic/mobile in the same "mold" as some of the guys you got there, he wasn't no point-forward type but could pass the ball pretty well underrated aspect of his game, could then give you like 6 RPG, played defense, great on the break... Not much throwback that COMBINATION of things

He was throwback in a sense that he did plenty of his scoring work from the post, with quick spins and turnaround J's, yea... But he could also blow by you with a great 1st step from the triple-threat and finish extremely well, he could hit some open J's, over 75% at the FT line too, got buckets on the tremendous Showtime fastbreak.

But I even said Worthy has plenty of "throwback things" to his game and I certainly agree that the most from the following crop of SF's had a different game/skill-set from somebody like Worthy...
How about Byron Scott though? Nothing throwback about him, even comparing to today's game.

Again, you were definitely overrating the effect of Magic on his teammates (which I'm not denying was terrific) and underrating Worthy and Scott.

[SHAQisGOAT]

The Lakers would have needed Kareem from 1971 to 1980 to have had a chance to just take the series 6. 1985 Kareem was a little bit better than 1991 Divac.

:biggums: :biggums: :coleman:

Little bit better? :wtf:

You realize that Kareem for the 1985 regular-season:
-still averaged 22 PPG, 7.9 RPG, 3.2 APG, 2.1 BPG on .628 TS%, in only 33 min
-was all-nba 2nd (1st in '86 even, and all-defensive 2nd in '84) and 4th in MVP voting
-5th in the league in FG%, 10th in BPG, 5th in PER, 4th in WS/48
-still was the best/main scorer for the Lakers
...

Then in the Finals, after playing like shit in game1 while LA got badly beaten he said he was gonna come back stronger than ever and did it, having one of the all-time best Finals series...
25.7 / 9.0 / 5.2 / 1.0 / 1.5 on 60.4/76.9, in only 35.5 MPG :bowdown: :bowdown: He abused Parish and McHale, straight up killed the Celtics...

Vlade couldn't even dream of being that good, couldn't even begin to **** with that, not even at his very best he came close to that...

"Little bit better" :rolleyes: :facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:biggums: :biggums: :coleman:

Little bit better? :wtf:

You realize that Kareem for the 1985 regular-season:
-still averaged 22 PPG, 7.9 RPG, 3.2 APG, 2.1 BPG on .628 TS%, in only 33 min
-was all-nba 2nd (1st in '86 even, and all-defensive 2nd in '84) and 4th in MVP voting
-5th in the league in FG%, 10th in BPG, 5th in PER, 4th in WS/48
-still was the best/main scorer for the Lakers
...

Then in the Finals, after playing like shit in game1 while LA got badly beaten he said he was gonna come back stronger than ever and did it, having one of the all-time best Finals series...
25.7 / 9.0 / 5.2 / 1.0 / 1.5 on 60.4/76.9, in only 35.5 MPG :bowdown: :bowdown: He abused Parish and McHale, straight up killed the Celtics...

Vlade couldn't even dream of being that good, couldn't even begin to **** with that, not even at his very best he came close to that...

"Little bit better" :rolleyes: :facepalm


You basically got all the stats covered, but how about his overall postseason run of 22/8/4 on 56% shooting? :cheers:

I just don't get HOW the most balanced of the great centers would only help "some"? Dude was still great in '85... people are forgetting that or just ignoring it for whatever reason.

[Rose'sACL]

Lakers in 6.

[LAZERUSS]

No. '87 Lakers would win about 60% of the time (they just had a lot more talent), but lol @ 4 games. That series goes at least 6 games basically every time.

EDIT: lol @ anyone thinking that healthy Worthy would make a difference in 1991. That Bulls team was a team of destiny and weren't going to be denied. Yeah, if they came up against a top 5 all time team (like the '87 Lakers or '86 Celtics) perhaps they would have lost - but the 1991 Lakers weren't even close to that level, even with Worthy healthy.

I don't usually agree with you, but this post is right on.

In fact, as big a Laker fan as I have been for most of my life (and the '80 Lakers were probably my favorite teams), IMHO, it would have been a toss-up between the '92 Bulls and any of the '80's Lakers. I would also argue that the '92 Bulls were nearly the equal of the '96 Bulls, and were better than the '97 and '98 Bulls. Yes, the '97 and '98 teams may have had a slight edge in talent, but the '92 (and '91) MJ was at his peak. He was on another level in those seasons, and his individual brilliance would have offset the differences in talent.

In any case, a '91 Bulls vs. any Laker team of the '80's would have been very close.