what does making the finals 6 times and losing 4 of them prove.

[NZStreetBaller]

that lebron would have never made the finals that many times had he been in the west.

2007 spurs wouldve swept him
2011 mavs wouldve smashed him
2012 2013 ill admit him and the heat were at the peak of their powers and no doubt he wouldve won those two
2014. spurs okc or maybe even clips or gsw wouldve taken him out.
2015 any of the top 4 west team couldve taken him out.

these lestans can act like making the finals is a great achievement even though he lost. but in reality in just a result of having the easy road.

so no making the finals those 4 times and losing is not a solid contribution to lebrons overall rating.

lebron has only beaten 2 west teams in a series in his career :eek: just two!!!

fun fact:08 - 10 kobe was undefeated against western teams. 9 in a row whilst exiting his prime.

[Kobe_6/8]

that lebron would have never made the finals that many times had he been in the west.

2007 spurs wouldve swept him
2011 mavs wouldve smashed him
2012 2013 ill admit him and the heat were at the peak of their powers and no doubt he wouldve won those two
2014. spurs okc or maybe even clips or gsw wouldve taken him out.
2015 any of the top 4 west team couldve taken him out.

these lestans can act like making the finals is a great achievement even though he lost. but in reality in just a result of having the easy road.

so no making the finals those 4 times and losing is not a solid contribution to lebrons overall rating.

lebron has only beaten 2 west teams in a series in his career :eek: just two!!!


Replace LeBron with any player and they still get swept in 2007.

2011 he would choke on his way to the finals. Wade would win a ring for him.

2014 Spurs and OKC both wanted revenge blood from LeBron. He wouldn't make it past them by himself.

[BigBoss]

Future repped.

[iamgine]

It only means the team was not better/performing better than the other team 4 times out of 6.

[NZStreetBaller]

It only means the team was not better/performing better than the other team 4 times out of 6.

doesnt change the fact that making it to the finals in a beta east has poor credibility.

[MEB2kDeez]

They only use how many finals appearances he has when it suits their agenda :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Certainly it's fair to talk about this stuff if someone is propping Lebron for making as many finals as he has. Playing in that conference with the kind of help he had in Miami...of course makes it far less of an accomplishment than if it was done in the West.

Still good to do of course, but it's honestly not that special because the margin for error was just so large.

Shit, this year, Lebron couldn't shoot from range, Kyrie was a shell, and they had no Love...and they went 12-2.

Yea, Lebron being great impacts that, but the biggest factor is not having to play real teams.

[NZStreetBaller]

Certainly it's fair to talk about this stuff if someone is propping Lebron for making as many finals as he has. Playing in that conference with the kind of help he had in Miami...of course makes it far less of an accomplishment than if it was done in the West.

Still good to do of course, but it's honestly not that special because the margin for error was just so large.

Shit, this year, Lebron couldn't shoot from range, Kyrie was a shell, and they had no Love...and they went 12-2.


Yea, Lebron being great impacts that, but the biggest factor is not having to play real teams.

i give lebron and the cavs a little bit of credit for this trip out of the east. they did exceptionally well hooooowwever.

Clips Gsw Spurs wouldve destroyed them. they possibly wouldve made it to the conference semis but no further then that.

[LAZERUSS]

i give lebron and the cavs a little bit of credit for this trip out of the east. they did exceptionally well hooooowwever.

Clips Gsw Spurs wouldve destroyed them. they possibly wouldve made it to the conference semis but no further then that.

What is your definition of "destroyed?"

Losing in OT to a team that blew thru their Western Conference competition with a 12-3 record?

[NZStreetBaller]

What is your definition of "destroyed?"

Losing in OT to a team that blew thru their Western Conference competition with a 12-3 record?

"destroyed" from a series perspective 5 games or less...... thats just my opinion.

[DMAVS41]

What is your definition of "destroyed?"

Losing in OT to a team that blew thru their Western Conference competition with a 12-3 record?

But they had Kyrie looking healthy in that game last night. With a healthy Kyrie...this Cavs team is actually legit scary.

Without him...I don't think they are at all.

Could be wrong...sadly we are about to find it because I doubt Kyrie can give them much on Sunday or the rest of the way. Hopefully he can.

[LAZERUSS]

But they had Kyrie looking healthy in that game last night. With a healthy Kyrie...this Cavs team is actually legit scary.

Without him...I don't think they are at all.

Could be wrong...sadly we are about to find it because I doubt Kyrie can give them much on Sunday or the rest of the way. Hopefully he can.

I'm not arguing with you at all. I was merely responding to the point that these other Western Conference teams would have "destroyed" this Cavs team based on a game one OT win by a Warriors team that went 12-3 against their "much tougher" Western Conference competition.

BTW, how do you think a completely healthy Cavs team, with a healthy Kyrie and Love, would far in this series?

[DMAVS41]

I'm not arguing with you at all. I was merely responding to the point that these other Western Conference teams would have "destroyed" this Cavs team based on a game one OT win by a Warriors team that went 12-3 against their "much tougher" Western Conference competition.

BTW, how do you think a completely healthy Cavs team, with a healthy Kyrie and Love, would far in this series?

I think if fully healthy...this Cavs team would be 50/50 to beat the Warriors essentially.

I'd favor the Warriors ever so slightly because of home court.

[NZStreetBaller]

I'm not arguing with you at all. I was merely responding to the point that these other Western Conference teams would have "destroyed" this Cavs team based on a game one OT win by a Warriors team that went 12-3 against their "much tougher" Western Conference competition.

BTW, how do you think a completely healthy Cavs team, with a healthy Kyrie and Love, would far in this series?

its kind of an over confident future prediction. cavs are getting swept. ill give lebron the benefit of the doubt gsw in 5. lebron hasnt been swept for aaaages

[LAZERUSS]

I think if fully healthy...this Cavs team would be 50/50 to beat the Warriors essentially.

I'd favor the Warriors ever so slightly because of home court.

:cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

its kind of an over confident future prediction. cavs are getting swept. ill give lebron the benefit of the doubt gsw in 5. lebron hasnt been swept for aaaages

No matter what, you can't blame Lebron for losing this series without Love, and now possibly Kyrie. Especially when he puts up 42 points in a regulation in a game that his team would lose in OT.

[iamgine]

doesnt change the fact that making it to the finals in a beta east has poor credibility.
Much better than not making the finals.

[FLDFSU]

You do realize Lebron would also get to play on a "superior" Western Conference team right?

And no, I am not sure anything materially changes if Lebron plays for the Spurs, Rockets, Clippers, Warriors, Memphis, Dallas, etc.

Hell, I could see Lebron taking Dallas to 8 finals in 11 years...

[DMAVS41]

You do realize Lebron would also get to play on a "superior" Western Conference team right?

And no, I am not sure anything materially changes if Lebron plays for the Spurs, Rockets, Clippers, Warriors, Memphis, Dallas, etc.

Hell, I could see Lebron taking Dallas to 8 finals in 11 years...


This doesn't make sense. He already has played on some of the best teams in the league for the last 7 years now.

Why would he get more help?

Makes absolutely no sense.

The hypothetical would be about the Heat/Cavs going to the West and a team like the Thunder going East.

Lebron doesn't get more help. He had a top 5 team in 09/10....top 3 teams in 11 through 14 essentially...

This year without Love/Kyrie they aren't elite, but still good.

[NZStreetBaller]

No matter what, you can't blame Lebron for losing this series without Love, and now possibly Kyrie. Especially when he puts up 42 points in a regulation in a game that his team would lose in OT.

no you cant blame him. but at the same time you cant necessarily guarantee a different outcome with love and irving.

heres the thing with being the best player on the team. you're going to get most of the credit when you win. and an equal downside you're going to take the heat for losing.

[NZStreetBaller]

This doesn't make sense. He already has played on some of the best teams in the league for the last 7 years now.

Why would he get more help?

Makes absolutely no sense.

this.

that heat team was jacked as hell.

[FLDFSU]

This doesn't make sense. He already has played on some of the best teams in the league for the last 7 years now.

Why would he get more help?

Makes absolutely no sense.

Some of the best teams of the last 7 years should have a winning record without him on the floor/ on their their team

Some of the best teams of the last 7 years should have a positive +/- without him on the court

Some of the best teams of the last 7 years do not go on historic 25+ losing streaks or miss the playoffs "in the weakest conference of all time"

Some of the best teams of the last 7 years do not allow one person to lead the team in points, assists, minutes, rebounds, be their best defender, have their offense run entirely through them

[DMAVS41]

Some of the best teams of the last 7 years should have a winning record without him on the floor/ on their their team

Some of the best teams of the last 7 years should have a positive +/- without him on the court

Some of the best teams of the last 7 years do not go on historic 25+ losing streaks or miss the playoffs "in the weakest conference of all time"

Some of the best teams of the last 7 years do not allow one person to lead the team in points, assists, minutes, rebounds, be their best defender, have their offense run entirely through them

Are you actually denying this?

At worst the 09/10 Cavs were a top 5 team in the league.

At worst the 11/12 Heat were top 3 teams in the league.

At worst the 13/14 Heat were top 5 teams in the league.



You don't just get to gift Lebron top 1 or 2 teams each year you little crazy clown.

Any star player is going to have great results playing on the best or 2nd best team in the league.

[sd3035]

No matter what, you can't blame Lebron for losing this series without Love, and now possibly Kyrie. Especially when he puts up 42 points in a regulation in a game that his team would lose in OT.

A Wilt stan defending finals choking :applause:

[LAZERUSS]

A Wilt stan defending finals choking :applause:

Yep..."choking" as in single-handedly carrying a much worse roster to an OT loss in a game in which he scored 44 points.

I could find a ton of similar situations for the "choking" Wilt in his playoff career, as well.

[sd3035]

Yep..."choking" as in single-handedly carrying a much worse roster to an OT loss in a game in which he scored 44 points.

I could find a ton of similar situations for the "choking" Wilt in his playoff career, as well.

Like when his teammate won finals MVP in a losing effort due to Wilt's choking? :lol

[sd3035]

Wilt couldn't even average 20ppg in the finals against people half his size who played basketball as a hobby :roll:

[NZStreetBaller]

Like when his teammate won finals MVP in a losing effort due to Wilt's choking? :lol

i heard about this..... wasnt that the one when wilt pulled himself out of the game then wanted to come back once they started winning.

even lebron wouldnt do that...

[LAZERUSS]

Like when his teammate won finals MVP in a losing effort due to Wilt's choking? :lol

Or, Wilt winning a FMVP, while carrying his team to a TITLE with that same teammate shooting .325 in the Finals?

I guess that clearly shows that Wilt's COACH made a HUGE mistake while allowing that other teammate to "lead" their team in that "losing effort", right?

[sd3035]

http://coda-tulsa.org/images/Old%20Man%20Typing.bmpOr, Wilt winning a FMVP, while carrying his team to a TITLE with that same teammate shooting .325 in the Finals?

I guess that clearly shows that Wilt's COACH made a HUGE mistake while allowing that other teammate to "lead" their team in that "losing effort", right?


Wilt was 2/7 :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt couldn't even average 20ppg in the finals against people half his size who played basketball as a hobby :roll:

He had a Finals in his "scoring" prime of 29.2 ppg (on a .517 FG%...in a post-season NBA that shot .420...and in a series in which everyone else that played combined to shoot for less than .400)...against a player who was every bit as tall as a Dwight Howard, Demarcus Cousins, and DeAndre Jordan.

Of course, he also had playoff series against the same guy, in which he averaged 30 ppg, 31 ppg, and 34 ppg.

He also had a seven game Finals of 23 ppg, with 24 rpg, on a .625 FG% against another HOF center...and on basically one leg.

[Kblaze8855]

Making 6 proves quite a bit. He's far from the first player to have similar sets of teams in his way several times over the course of a career.

Plenty of HOF players have several chances with opponents hurt or an unusually weak conference that year and never make it.

41 win teams have been in the finals in my lifetime. 6 seeds. 8 seeds. The way is made clear by some upset and it's the chance of a lifetime.

Some people step up and others don't.....and all time greats never play a finals game.

There are quite a few hall of famers who never won a playoff series as best player. And dudes act like winning 18 is easy. It's not easy to win 18 series vs playoff teams. Not even in the east. Or the eighties West for that matter when it was even easier at times.

[sd3035]

http://coda-tulsa.org/images/Old%20Man%20Typing.bmpHe had a Finals in his "scoring" prime of 29.2 ppg (on a .517 FG%...in a post-season NBA that shot .420...and in a series in which everyone else that played combined to shoot for less than .400)...against a player who was every bit as tall as a Dwight Howard, Demarcus Cousins, and DeAndre Jordan.

Of course, he also had playoff series against the same guy, in which he averaged 30 ppg, 31 ppg, and 34 ppg.

He also had a seven game Finals of 23 ppg, with 24 rpg, on a .625 FG% against another HOF center...and on basically one leg.


So, he couldn't even average 20ppg in the Finals, went 2/7 with only one finals MVP, and his teammate even won one in a losing effort due to Wilt's choking :cheers:

[ArbitraryWater]

Lol at these dumb hypotheticals... How do you figure the Mavs 'smashing' the Heat in 2011? Heat and Bron had zero problems closing out games before the finals... so 2011 in the West is probably a chip.
2014 they didn't have a losing record against any West playoff team, Spurs' played their best series, Heat were the 2nd best team in the NBA.
Same for 2015 lol, Love out, Kyrie hobbled, and they're STILL Golden State's toughest test... that just tells you how relevant this ring counting really is, if they have a healthy Kyrie AND Love, the Cavs win this series and the title, in 5 or 6 games.

[LAZERUSS]

So, he couldn't even average 20ppg in the Finals, went 2/7 with only one finals MVP, and his teammate even won one in a losing effort due to Wilt's choking :cheers:

He badly outplayed his opposing centers in the Finals, went "2-6", won TWO FMVP (yes, he would have been a unanimous FMVP had the award existed in '67), and carried a teammate who played horrifically in the '72 Finals to his only title, all due to his brilliance.

[DMAVS41]

Lol at these dumb hypotheticals... How do you figure the Mavs 'smashing' the Heat in 2011? Heat and Bron had zero problems closing out games before the finals... so 2011 in the West is probably a chip.
2014 they didn't have a losing record against any West playoff team, Spurs' played their best series, Heat were the 2nd best team in the NBA.
Same for 2015 lol, Love out, Kyrie hobbled, and they're STILL Golden State's toughest test... that just tells you how relevant this ring counting really is, if they have a healthy Kyrie AND Love, the Cavs win this series and the title, in 5 or 6 games.

Wait...so now we are going t assume the 11 Heat beat the Mavs if it's the conference finals?

Stop it...

Just don't go on and on about making the finals 6 times when we all know that is inflated due to playing in the East.

Not even a knock on Lebron...he's no worse a player or something because of that. It's just the reality of the situation.

[DMAVS41]

Making 6 proves quite a bit. He's far from the first player to have similar sets of teams in his way several times over the course of a career.

Plenty of HOF players have several chances with opponents hurt or an unusually weak conference that year and never make it.

41 win teams have been in the finals in my lifetime. 6 seeds. 8 seeds. The way is made clear by some upset and it's the chance of a lifetime.

Some people step up and others don't.....and all time greats never play a finals game.

There are quite a few hall of famers who never won a playoff series as best player. And dudes act like winning 18 is easy. It's not easy to win 18 series vs playoff teams. Not even in the east. Or the eighties West for that matter when it was even easier at times.


Depends on how you are defining all time great players here. I'd argue that if said player couldn't make the finals in place of Lebron over the last 7 years one time...he's not an all time great player.

Also, why does it prove anything when it's your claim that how players play doesn't matter in the playoffs for the most part?

You are constantly saying it doesn't mean anything that Paul has never gotten out of the 2nd round, that it's not a thing, but now here you say Lebron making the finals proves quite a bit.

I don't think your logic here makes much sense.

[sd3035]

http://coda-tulsa.org/images/Old%20Man%20Typing.bmpHe badly outplayed his opposing centers in the Finals, went "2-6", won TWO FMVP (yes, he would have been a unanimous FMVP had the award existed in '67), and carried a teammate who played horrifically in the '72 Finals to his only title, all due to his brilliance.
I believe it was actually

http://oi61.tinypic.com/2lj4zgk.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

Reminds me of the Montana-Brady debates.

One QB went 4-0 in the SB, the other 4-2. Those who rank Montana ahead of Brady must be overlooking his blowout playoff losses by margins of 17-3, 30-13, and 49-3, as well as being benched after the first half of another blowout loss to an inferior Viking team by a 36-24 margin.

[sd3035]

Reminds me of the Montana-Brady debates.

One QB went 4-0 in the SB, the other 4-2. Those who rank Montana ahead of Brady must be overlooking his blowout playoff losses by margins of 17-3, 30-13, and 49-3, as well as being benched after the first half of another blowout loss to an inferior Viking team by a 36-24 margin.

https://i.imgur.com/T9nKo.gif

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Cleveland went toe to toe with GS and showed that they're damned near their equal. That's with an injured Kyrie and K-Love. Cleveland would have made it to the finals if they played the teams GS did, and I think the same has been true for LeBron's squads in the majority of his finals appearances (2007 being the primary exception, possibly 2014 too). East is an easier conference but LeBron would be a regular finals player no matter where he played.

[pegasus]

He'd make the finals maybe once and probably lose because he'd be exhausted by the time they got there. Every Finals he has something happening to him; cramp, heat, etc. Imagine him dealing with those after battling through the West for three consecutive rounds.

[DMAVS41]

Cleveland went toe to toe with GS and showed that they're damned near their equal. That's with an injured Kyrie and K-Love. Cleveland would have made it to the finals if they played the teams GS did, and I think the same has been true for LeBron's squads in the majority of his finals appearances (2007 being the primary exception, possibly 2014 too). East is an easier conference but LeBron would be a regular finals player no matter where he played.

Kyrie looked better last night than he has since early on in the playoffs from a health perspective though.

I don't think they would have beaten the Grizzlies or Rockets with a hobbled Kyrie and no Love like they had for the 2nd/3rd round in the East.

Could they have? Sure, but hardly a lock.