Lebron should've had 60 last night

[3ball]

.
He faced 1-defender strongsides on every play (as seen below), while help defenders were the furthest distance away on the far weakside - but horrible moves & shooting touch held him to only 44 and nothing in clutch:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/XIjX_w.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/P5Zone.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/I7p0lg.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/xUCd0U.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/CU5j5S.gif

http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/1e79dc71a542600a777d78638e6a7e69.gif

.

[BlazerRed]

There are a lot of ****ing losers on this site. Way too much free time.

[nba_55]

:biggums: get a life:oldlol:

[inclinerator]

yea he should have at least 50

[sd3035]

agreed, excellent post :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Out_In_Utah]

All of the writing and gif research to tell us what we already knew. Congrats, you wasted your time. :applause:

[Velocirap31]

Nothing better to do eh

[sd3035]

When you factor in that he was allowed to travel and commit offensive fouls at will, he should have dropped at least 80

[Out_In_Utah]

When you factor in that he was allowed to travel and commit offensive fouls at will, he should have dropped at least 80
:lol

[zoom17]

Insecure Jordan fans are the worst.

[HurricaneKid]

3Ball, your problem isn't that you are willfully bad. Its that you don't even know what stats you are using. A post up is not an ISO.

And LOL at "one defender strong side". Help was brought to the rim on every possession against LeBron's ISOs and post ups. You can even tell who it is going to be in your .gifs. It was so bad the officials called them for an illegal D.

And if you can't get that you need to attempt to learn what is happening before you jam down your non-sense.

That said, LBJ was far from great last night.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

When you factor in that he was allowed to travel and commit offensive fouls at will, he should have dropped at least 80

Welcome to the NBA. :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

All of the writing and gif research to tell us what we already knew.. :applause:


True.. I won't be making a thread like this for Game 2, or any other Finals games because it's pretty obvious that 1-defender strongsides are available on every single play if a coach desired..

That's the state of today's "modern" defenses: less strongside defenders.. The main objective of today's spacing is to reduce the number of strongside defenders by using weakside floor-spreaders to draw them away.. The porous strongside resistance caused by weakside spacing necessitates the gimmicky flooding of defenders back to the strongside..

Of course in previous eras, there was no spacing, so the strongside was always automatically-flooded with 4-5 defenders (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21).

Here's a similar thread documenting some of Lebron's made baskets on 1-defender strongsides in the ECF vs. Atlanta - these are only some of the MADE baskets, so there were many more misses and other possessions not included:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570
.

[J Shuttlesworth]

3ball after last years finals: "LeBron should have been dropping 40"

3ball after last night: "LeBron should have dropped 60"

[Levity]

3Ball, your problem isn't that you are willfully bad. Its that you don't even know what stats you are using. A post up is not an ISO.


post ups that start the the 3 pt line with your team hauling ass to the weakside are most certainly ISO's

[3ball]

3ball after last years finals: "LeBron should have been dropping 40"

3ball after last night: "LeBron should have dropped 60"
40 was enough last night to give his team a chance to win - that's all I was asking for in last year's Finals - give your team a chance to win.

That's all MJ's 41/9/6 did against Phoenix in 1993 - the Bulls PPG and ORtg in that series was 106.7 and 113.0, respectively, EXACTLY the same as the Suns.. So all MJ's production did was give his team a chance to win - last night, Lebron's production did that too, until the clutch part of the game.

But the reason I think Lebron should've gotten 60 last night is because of all the 1-defender strongsides he faced.. If MJ got to face 1-defender strongsides, he would've had 60 in Lebron's place last night.. Too bad for Lebron that last year's Heat weren't smart enough to isolate him like that, and it cost them.
.

[dreamwarrior]

That was their gameplan. Just give Lebron the ball. It wasn't effective obviously, and the tie score at the end of regulation doesn't show that, because the Warriors played like shit up until that point. This is supposed to be a passing team. If they had spaced it out more the Cavs would've taken it easily.

[JerrySeinfeld]

well according to him when he gets that many shots he will get 60 points.

just not in the finals I guess.

[andgar923]

3Ball, your problem isn't that you are willfully bad. Its that you don't even know what stats you are using. A post up is not an ISO.

And LOL at "one defender strong side". Help was brought to the rim on every possession against LeBron's ISOs and post ups. You can even tell who it is going to be in your .gifs. It was so bad the officials called them for an illegal D.

And if you can't get that you need to attempt to learn what is happening before you jam down your non-sense.

That said, LBJ was far from great last night.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Yet everyone from Van Gundy, and Mark Jackson to stats and journalists were calling it so.

Shit, Grantland had an article titled 'Isolation Game' here's an excerpt:

[QUOTE]In Game 1, James scored 44 points on 18-of-38 shooting, with eight rebounds and six assists. Most of those 44 points came in the form of grinding isolation plays, that most maligned type of NBA offense. Per NBA.com, no player has operated out of the iso more often

[JohnFreeman]

What's the bet that 3ball never watched Jordan play in the 90s?

[andgar923]

3ball has these Bron stans shook as hell.

They can't seriously argue any of his posts, all they can do is attack him and whine and complain about the repetitiveness.

[raprap]

Great analysis. Best poster in ISH. :applause:

[StephHamann]

3ball are you coach nick?

[3ball]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Yet everyone from Van Gundy, and Mark Jackson to stats and journalists were calling it so.

Shit, Grantland had an article titled 'Isolation Game' here's an excerpt:

"In Game 1, James scored 44 points on 18-of-38 shooting, with eight rebounds and six assists. Most of those 44 points came in the form of grinding isolation plays"

The help defenders are literally across the paint (on the weakside) leaving it wide open for Bron, (on strongside) and such was the case on almost every possession."


The important thing to remember when comparing this scenario to another era, is that previous era's didn't do these type of clearouts, where 4 offensive players are stationed near 3-point line on weakside, thus drawing defenders away and enabling 1-on-1 on strongside.

Previous eras didn't have the 3-point shooters to do it (only 2 three-pointers attempted in 1985), so coaches didn't think to put players behind the 3-point line on the weakside.. With players closer to the paint, this activated Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines, which stipulated that defenders could remain in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was in the paint also, or within 3 feet or either side.. With the ability to legally paint-camp, defenders didn't have to come all the way across the paint - they could just wait under the rim.

Btw, the Grantland article you referenced about Lebron's clear-out isolations was written right after Game 1 of NBA Finals... And last night on NBA TV's Gametime, they started talking about the strongside clearouts too.. But we here at ish have been talking about it for a few months now.. :pimp:
.

[LosBulls]

3ball are you coach nick?
BruceBlitz

[gts]

Golden State has a great game plan... Make Lebron beat them. take away his passing lanes, guard the shooters and make Lebron score 100 to win the game

Lebron is going to put up great numbers in this series because Golden State is going to make sure he's the guy who has to do everything

[OldSchoolBBall]

Bron had a really good game 1 aside from the last few minutes of the 4th and OT. That's not a backhanded compliment, either. Dude was beasting for the first 43-44 minutes.

But dudes saying he didn't have isos? He had a steady diet of wide open isos all night on the wing. They elected not to double him and for most of the game he made them pay. Dude takes a crazy amount of time to make decisions as a scorer, though (as opposed to passing, where his reactions/instincts are instant).

[3ball]

Bron had a really good game 1 aside from the last few minutes of the 4th and OT. That's not a backhanded compliment, either. Dude was beasting for the first 43-44 minutes.

But dudes saying he didn't have isos? He had a steady diet of wide open isos all night on the wing. They elected not to double him and for most of the game he made them pay. Dude takes a crazy amount of time to make decisions as a scorer, though (as opposed to passing, where his reactions/instincts are instant).
And it's becoming common knowledge that today's spacing, in particular "weakside spacing" (as NBA TV called it last night), reduces the number of strongside defenders and enables the 1-defender strongsides/clearouts we see with Lebron.

Grantland wrote an article right after Game 1 about the clearouts, and NBA TV talked about weakside spacing and strongside clearouts on Gametime last night.. But we've been talking about how today's spacing enables fewer strongside defenders, including 1-defender strongsides, for a while now.

Btw, Lebron's passing isn't instant.. He holds the ball for an equal time before he passes as he does for when he shoots... The stats show 38% of his buckets take longer than 6 seconds, which is 8th in the entire league... And this is a point guard stat - Lebron and Harden are the only non-PG's in the top 50.

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/shots/#!/?sectionName=Touch%20Time%20Range&section=TouchTimeRange&range=Touch%206%2B%20Seconds&sort=FGA_FREQUENCY&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

[OldSchoolBBall]

Btw, Lebron's passing isn't instant.. He holds the ball for an equal time before he passes as he does for when he shoots... The stats show 38% of his buckets take longer than 6 seconds, which is 8th in the entire league... And this is a point guard stat - Lebron and Harden are the only non-PG's in the top 50.

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/shots/#!/?sectionName=Touch%20Time%20Range&section=TouchTimeRange&range=Touch%206%2B%20Seconds&sort=FGA_FREQUENCY&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

No, he holds the ball a lot and dribbles around waiting for passing angles/opportunities to open up, but when they do his recognition of them and passing execution is very quick. Contrast that with his scoring, where he seems oblivious to openings/lanes a lot of times. Even my pro-Lebron friends who I was watching the game with were going crazy wondering why he didn't take the baseline that was wide open to him on like 70% of his isos on the wing last night. He just either doesn't recognize or has no confidence.

[3ball]

No, he holds the ball a lot and dribbles around waiting for passing angles/opportunities to open up, but when they do his recognition of them and passing execution is very quick.
Right, he doesn't pass right away... he catches the ball, holds it or dribbles for a while, then passes, just like when he shoots

[JerrySeinfeld]

3ball has these Bron stans shook as hell.

They can't seriously argue any of his posts, all they can do is attack him and whine and complain about the repetitiveness.

lol it's hilarious. He needs to make a youtube channel talking about this shit so that the masses can get educated

[TheMarkMadsen]

can you imagine MJ or Kobe being defended like that in the finals??

:roll: :roll:

[DMV2]

well according to him when he gets that many shots he will get 60 points.

just not in the finals I guess.
44 points is more than any of Kobe's Finals game.

:lol

[DMV2]

can you imagine MJ or Kobe being defended like that in the finals??

:roll: :roll:
MJ would have gotten 60 on 45 shots.

Kobe would have gotten 60 on 60 shots

???

:confusedshrug:

[SamuraiSWISH]

No, he holds the ball a lot and dribbles around waiting for passing angles/opportunities to open up, but when they do his recognition of them and passing execution is very quick. Contrast that with his scoring, where he seems oblivious to openings/lanes a lot of times. Even my pro-Lebron friends who I was watching the game with were going crazy wondering why he didn't take the baseline that was wide open to him on like 70% of his isos on the wing last night. He just either doesn't recognize or has no confidence.
:applause:

I was saying the same thing all night, particularly the bolded.

LeBron played a very good game before the end of the 4th, and OT. But he kept driving into the teeth of the defense in the lane where GS was collapsing on his drives, making shots more difficult. He takes a long time to recognize quick scoring opportunities. His instincts on the pass are much more quickstrike, and organic.

He hit Mozgov with some incredible looks, and lightning fast passes.

Baseline however on his ISOs was open all day as a driving lane, or way to create space for step back jumpers. Without more defenders for help.

And per usual excellent analysis.

Would you say this game was a better performance than anything you had seen from Kobe in the Finals?

I'm eager to see how James plays the rest of the series. If he goes harder without the weight of expectations now that Kyrie is gone as well, and Cleveland is massive underdogs. Or if he folds, and pouts ala 2010, 2011, and times during the 2014 Finals.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Would you say this game was a better performance than anything you had seen from Kobe in the Finals?

Tough to say, but possibly. Kobe had a couple of great games against Orlando in '09 in particular, but besides those, it might be better than any of his other Finals games. Lebron had an unbelievable game until about midway through the 4th.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Tough to say, but possibly. Kobe had a couple of great games against Orlando in '09 in particular, but besides those, it might be better than any of his other Finals games. Lebron had an unbelievable game until about midway through the 4th.
It didn't annoy you to watch him consistently drive right out the triple threat into the damn teeth of the multiple defender, collapsing Golden State Warrior defense in the lane ... when he had a wide open baseline to his right, and could use his frame as well as leaping ability to shield himself from anyone else?

:facepalm

[3ball]

Tough to say, but possibly. Kobe had a couple of great games against Orlando in '09 in particular, but besides those, it might be better than any of his other Finals games. Lebron had an unbelievable game until about midway through the 4th.
Then that ruins the entire game..

That makes it just another game that should be completely forgetten as time goes on.. Most of MJ's 40 point finals games are forgetten, and he DIDN'T disappear down the stretch.

[tpols]

Bron had a really good game 1 aside from the last few minutes of the 4th and OT. That's not a backhanded compliment, either. Dude was beasting for the first 43-44 minutes.

But dudes saying he didn't have isos? He had a steady diet of wide open isos all night on the wing. They elected not to double him and for most of the game he made them pay. Dude takes a crazy amount of time to make decisions as a scorer, though (as opposed to passing, where his reactions/instincts are instant).

Its because he got swatted by Bogut to start the game. All you need is a big 7 foot type shot blocker like hibbert/bogut/duncan and hell be hesitant to go at the rim when they're around.

[Indian guy]

Dude takes a crazy amount of time to make decisions as a scorer, though (as opposed to passing, where his reactions/instincts are instant).

Next to his inconsistent jumper, this has always been the biggest weakness in his game. You'd think someone with his average first-step would be more inclined to attack quicker, but nope. He almost always prefers holding on to the ball to survey the defense first. Very frustrating to watch because he's just making the game tougher for himself.

And Samurai, LeBron's a lot better driving right off the triple threat than left. Warriors often did leave the baseline open in Game 1, but they know he's not that quick driving left off standstill.

[RoseCity07]

He would have had 60 if he played well in OT. Pretty hard to score in OT when the whole Warriors defense knows you have scrubs around you. JR Smith is garbage and choked every single shot Lebron spoon fed him.

[3ball]

Warriors often did leave the baseline open in Game 1, but they know he's not that quick driving left off standstill.



:applause: .. Honestly, going left from standsill was one of MJ's biggest strengths - here's MJ blowing by superathlete Doug West and DPOY Dennis Rodman.. Also, dunking on Tim Duncan:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_with_the_Baseline_HopSt_f3dde741dd9364e1d67 d426c26375b8c.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a9a532eed8e9765b32f62c10e401918d.gif


http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/7cd0f2d7213f3061b6bfd97470ceb708.gif

[andgar923]

Right, he doesn't pass right away... he catches the ball, holds it or dribbles for a while, then passes, just like when he shoots

And that's why I've always mentioned that MJ was the better passer.

but people labeled me a 'hater' and 'idiot'.

It's clear as hell for anybody that knows anything about basketball. Bron simply doesn't always read and react to the defense.

Here's Bron in a nutshell:

He 'waits' to see what the defense gives him, then reacts.

MJ on the other hand:

MJ acts and forces the defense to adjust to him, then he counters.

[Kvnzhangyay]

And that's why I've always mentioned that MJ was the better passer.

but people labeled me a 'hater' and 'idiot'.

It's clear as hell for anybody that knows anything about basketball. Bron simply doesn't always read and react to the defense.

Here's Bron in a nutshell:

He 'waits' to see what the defense gives him, then reacts.

MJ on the other hand:

MJ acts and forces the defense to adjust to him, then he counters.

Actually you don't know basketball if you think MJ is a better passer :confusedshrug:
:confusedshrug:

I understand you will try to argue this, but anything you try to say will be a product of your confirmation bias and belief perseverance, so :applause:

[andgar923]

Actually you don't know basketball if you think MJ is a better passer :confusedshrug:
:confusedshrug:

I understand you will try to argue this, but anything you try to say will be a product of your confirmation bias and belief perseverance, so :applause:

:rolleyes:

I can back up why I believe MJ is the better passer, can you?

Bron 'appears' to be the better passer simply because he elects to pass first, while MJ thinks about attacking first.

All your statement does is cover up the fact that you can't back up your beliefs.

MJ can do everything that makes Bron a great passer.

But Bron can't create, read/react, pass while in the air/shot motion, like MJ did.

Or do you seriously want 3ball to flood these board with thread after thread after thread proving so?


for months we've been stating that Bron faces isolation plays to the disdain of Bron fans. For months 3ball (and some of us) flooded and hammered down and proved our analysis.

We will focus on passing if need be, and destroy the myth that Bron is the superior passer.

[Dro]

Somebody already said but he doesn't have the confidence to go baseline. He doesn't have enough confidence in his first step, not enough confidence in his fadeaway/stepback if the baseline gets cut off, and no confidence to take 1-2 quick dribbles to the left and pull up for the easy bank shot/jumper........

[SamuraiSWISH]

And Samurai, LeBron's a lot better driving right off the triple threat than left.
Yea, I've seen that ...


Warriors often did leave the baseline open in Game 1, but they know he's not that quick driving left off standstill.
He needs to find a way to make them pay. It was wide open.

He's quicker going that direction off the bounce. So maybe face up, and use some dribble moves to free himself? Or even better, what he's best at ... get a little head of steam attacking the defender, and use his semi transition crossover that I've seen him leave people in the dust with.

Also, the quality of his footwork comes and goes now a days. Don't know if it's due to size, age, or regression in physical ability or dexterity.

Some games he can attack off the dribble and fluidly change direction off a spin move. Saw it in the Chicago, and Atlanta series multiple times. It's devastating when he pulls off fluid spin moves, or change of direction plays at his size.

But I saw multiple times in game 1 where the defender was staying with him on the ISO drive to his right off the triple threat, and not only would a spin move back to the baseline have worked beautifully to free himself up for an easy score ... and it looked as if he was attempting to do it, but his feet got caught up beneath him stagnating his movement cutting off his own dribble.