If Lebron goes 2/6 will he ever pass Kobe on the all-time list?

[sportjames23]

Some here are saying going 2/6 would keep Bron out of the Top 10. Kobe is considered to be hovering anywhere between the 9 and 12 spots.

Does this possible series loss keep Bron behind Kobe?

[HOoopCityJones]

Lebald stans think he surpassed him after the first ring.

[iamgine]

^Truth. Lebron already passed Kobe long ago.

[Optimus Prime]

LeBron's already lower than Kobe and out of the Top 10 before 2/6 to everyone who knows basketball and is objective and realistic.

:kobe:

[SugarHill]

is there an official top 10 list? Where is it? How can this Cavs team be expected to do anything against an all-time great Warriors team without their second and third best players? Somehow this loss puts a dent in LeBron's legacy? It's all retarded

[LAZERUSS]

I already have him close to Kobe.

8. Kobe
9. Lebron
10. Bird
11. Moses
12. Hakeem
13. Dr. J

Dr. J is interesting. If you include his ABA years, he has a legitimate case as high as #8.

BTW, and IMO, those six are nearly interchangeable.

In any case, and barring injuries, it's just a matter of time before Lebron enters the Shaq-Duncan level.

[kennethgriffin]

forget finals win%


i highly doubt lebron will go to 9 nba finals in his career just to have a shot at matching kobes 5 titles

and even then people will say one of them isnt as good cause it was a lockout year


so he basically needs 6 titles

which would mean he has to make another 4 nba finals and win ALL of them...


but going by his current finals win%... lebron would need to make 18 nba finals since for every 6 he wins 2

only possible timeline to pass kobe:

2007 nba finals - loss
2011 nba finals - loss
2012 nba finals - win ( 0.5 titles )
2013 nba finals - win ( 1.5 titles )
2014 nba finals - loss
2015 nba finals - loss

2016 nba finals - loss
2017 nba finals - loss
2018 nba finals - win ( 2.5 titles )
2019 nba finals - loss
2020 nba finals - win ( 3.5 titles )
2021 nba finals - loss

2022 nba finals - loss
2023 nba finals - loss
2024 nba finals - win ( 4.5 titles )
2025 nba finals - loss
2026 nba finals - loss
2027 nba finals - win ( 5.5 titles * officially passes kobe bryant in rings )

retires at age 42

18 nba finals
5.5 nba titles






:lol

[HOoopCityJones]

is there an official top 10 list? Where is it? How can this Cavs team be expected to do anything against an all-time great Warriors team without their second and third best players? Somehow this loss puts a dent in LeBron's legacy? It's all retarded

No excuses. None of you give the 04, 08 or 13 Lakers any slack despite having key injuries. That's always the smudge on the resume people (haters) love to bring up. Finals losses regardless of who was or wasn't hurt is looked at in a vacuum.

[Fudge]

forget finals win%


i highly doubt lebron will go to 9 nba finals in his career just to have a shot at matching kobes 5 titles

and even then people will say one of them isnt as good cause it was a lockout year


so he basically needs 6 titles

which would mean he has to make another 4 nba finals and win ALL of them...


but going by his current finals win%... lebron would need to make 18 nba finals since for every 6 he wins 2

only possible timeline to pass kobe:

2007 nba finals - loss
2011 nba finals - loss
2012 nba finals - win ( 0.5 titles )
2013 nba finals - win ( 1.5 titles )
2014 nba finals - loss
2015 nba finals - loss

2016 nba finals - loss
2017 nba finals - loss
2018 nba finals - win ( 2.5 titles )
2019 nba finals - loss
2020 nba finals - win ( 3.5 titles )
2021 nba finals - loss

2022 nba finals - loss
2023 nba finals - loss
2024 nba finals - win ( 4.5 titles )
2025 nba finals - loss
2026 nba finals - loss
2027 nba finals - win ( 5.5 titles * officially passes kobe bryant in rings )

retires at age 42

18 nba finals
5.5 nba titles






:lol
http://media.giphy.com/media/yb3FUOXXpedSU/giphy.gif

[kennethgriffin]

I already have him close to Kobe.

8. Kobe
9. Lebron
10. Bird
11. Moses
12. Hakeem
13. Dr. J

Dr. J is interesting. If you include his ABA years, he has a legitimate case as high as #8.

BTW, and IMO, those six are nearly interchangeable.

In any case, and barring injuries, it's just a matter of time before Lebron enters the Shaq-Duncan level.

only russell/jordan/kareem have better overall careers than kobe


rings/finals win%/50+ win teams beatin/records/totals/all nba's/all defenses/30/40/50/60/80+ games/allstar games

kobes got everything. hes #1,2 or 3 in mostly everything all time.. no way hes not a top 5 player ever

[HOoopCityJones]

only russell/jordan/kareem have better overall careers than kobe


rings/finals win%/50+ win teams beatin/records/totals/all nba's/all defenses/30/40/50/60/80+ games/allstar games

kobes got everything. hes #1,2 or 3 in mostly everything all time.. no way hes not a top 5 player ever

It's crazy how you guys let this troll sound the most objective when it comes to Kobe. (sometimes)

[iamgine]

only russell/jordan/kareem have better overall careers than kobe


rings/finals win%/50+ win teams beatin/records/totals/all nba's/all defenses/30/40/50/60/80+ games/allstar games

kobes got everything. hes #1,2 or 3 in mostly everything all time.. no way hes not a top 5 player ever
Except most people don't think so because they have eyes. :lol

[LAZERUSS]

only russell/jordan/kareem have better overall careers than kobe


rings/finals win%/50+ win teams beatin/records/totals/all nba's/all defenses/30/40/50/60/80+ games/allstar games

kobes got everything. hes #1,2 or 3 in mostly everything all time.. no way hes not a top 5 player ever

Just for the sake of arguing...

Russell and Wilt played in the league together for 10 years. Wilt held a 7-2 All-First Team NBA margin. Furthermore, he either outplayed, or downright destroyed Russell in the vast majority of their H2H's....including the playoffs.

Kobe's resume? I see exactly ONE MVP.
I see three rings in which he was not even considered the best player on his own team.
I see him butchering two more Finals ('04 and '08.)
In fact, he quite possibly was the WORST Finals performer of all of those players that are consider GOAT candidates.

He has a strong case for a Top-10 ranking. But nothing more than #8.

[catch24]

No excuses. None of you give the 04, 08 or 13 Lakers any slack despite having key injuries. That's always the smudge on the resume people (haters) love to bring up. Finals losses regardless of who was or wasn't hurt is looked at in a vacuum.

I wouldn't say missing Love and Irving doesn't give them a legitimate excuse, but LeBron fans claiming the "Warriors title = asterisk" are delusional. That and hypocritical, because when LeBron was in Miami, they not only won a lockout title, but also played/beat MULTIPLE teams who either had their star players hurt or DNP.

Again, I'm not saying I subscribe to this, but people that do can't just use one and NOT the other.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Kobe with 24 wins vs 50+ win teams in the playoffs.
LeBron with.... 7

Kobe 5-2 Finals record.
LeBron 2-4

To answer your question OP, no, he never will.

[coin24]

Just for the sake of arguing...

Russell and Wilt played in the league together for 10 years. Wilt held a 7-2 All-First Team NBA margin. Furthermore, he either outplayed, or downright destroyed Russell in the vast majority of their H2H's....including the playoffs.

Kobe's resume? I see exactly ONE MVP.
I see three rings in which he was not even considered the best player on his own team.
I see him butchering two more Finals ('04 and '08.)
In fact, he quite possibly was the WORST Finals performer of all of those players that are consider GOAT candidates.

He has a strong case for a Top-10 ranking. But nothing more than #8.


Hmm solid logic. I can see why you love bran so much, he's the reincarnate finals choker like wilt..

Also wilt only won his rings as a role player

Mj
Kaj
Russell
Bird
Magic
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
hakeem
DrJ


No LeShrivelled weenies in my top10.

[DMV2]

Can we stop comparing LeBron and Jordan to a guy who spent 8 seasons of his overrated career as a sidekick, a Robin, a rookie benchwarmer?

It's just not fair to LeBron's and Jordan's leadership as the leading man.

And let's not forgot that Shaq could have easily won those 3-peats with anybody once Jordan retired and all of the big giants got old and washed up.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Hmm solid logic. I can see why you love bran so much, he's the reincarnate finals choker like wilt..

Also wilt only won his rings as a role player

Mj
Kaj
Russell
Bird
Magic
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
hakeem
DrJ


No LeShrivelled weenies in my top10.
You must have never been old enough to watch Dr j if you put him over lebron

Lebron has been past kobe in rankings for the last two years ( he's #6)

[JerrySeinfeld]

Can we stop comparing LeBron and Jordan to a guy who spent 8 seasons of his overrated career as a sidekick, a Robin, a rookie benchwarmer?

It's just not fair to LeBron's and Jordan's leadership as the leading man.

And let's not forgot that Shaq could have easily won those 3-peats with anybody once Jordan retired and all of the big giants got old and washed up.

At the end of the day, 24 wins vs 50 + win PO teams > 7

and 5-2 > 2-4

all that matters.

[catch24]

Can we stop comparing LeBron and Jordan to a guy who spent 8 seasons of his overrated career as a sidekick, a Robin, a rookie benchwarmer?

It's just not fair to LeBron's and Jordan's leadership as the leading man.

And let's not forgot that Shaq could have easily won those 3-peats with anybody once Jordan retired and all of the big giants got old and washed up.

ISH with their irrational hate for Kobe... :oldlol:

If Kobe's production from 2000-2004 were merely sidekick numbers, your point would actually make sense.

[coin24]

You must have never been old enough to watch Dr j if you put him over lebron

Lebron has been past kobe in rankings for the last two years ( he's #6)


I have dirk over LeBald also.. Probably pierce aswel. Clutch big di.ck alphas:applause:

Bran is more of a pippen, hovers around the #20. Jack of all trades, master of none. Needs an alpha to win

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe is top 5, top 6.

Only Jordan & KAJ & possibly Magic have had better careers.

Russell :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The guy had like 7 years where he only had to win 4 games to make the finals...

Not impressive

[JerrySeinfeld]

Only LeBron could disregard all loyalty while playing in a garbage conference and positioning himself with 2-3 all star teammates every year and then still get rated higher than Kobe solely on an argument which is based on the teammates that Kobe played with.

People don't understand how team building works. Kobe won with Shaq, won without him. He stayed in LA and developed over the course of many, many years, strong relationships with guys like Derek Fisher and developed a trust factor within everyone in his organization. Hate on him if you want for Shaq leaving, but Shaq has confirmed that the issues were in fact the Lakers and him not sharing the same views on how much he was worth towards the post-prime part of his career. And to this day, Shaq seems to have as much respect for Kobe as anyone, including LeBron who he also played with and said lacked the killer instinct that Kobe had.

I guess LeBron does the same thing about building a long trust factor with players but it's with James Jones and other scrubs who are basically a package deal with LeBron regardless of whether the team feels that they are worth a roster spot or not.

[HOoopCityJones]

I wouldn't say missing Love and Irving doesn't give them a legitimate excuse, but LeBron fans claiming the "Warriors title = asterisk" are delusional. That and hypocritical, because when LeBron was in Miami, they not only won a lockout title, but also played/beat MULTIPLE teams who either had their star players hurt or DNP.

Again, I'm not saying I subscribe to this, but people that do can't just use one and NOT the other.

That's my point, at least be consistent with the BS criteria you push out.

[JerrySeinfeld]

LeBron's only chance of surpassing Kobe left whenever he found the first door out of Miami and then bailed. That team could have easily convinced an Ariza/Gasol to sign on and contend for as long as LeBron was a top 5 player.

Hell maybe if Riley works his magic they get both Ariza and Gasol. Problem is free agents knew that LeBron was gone. You could see it in the Finals that year, he quit on his team just like he did the last playoffs he had in Cleveland before he bailed on them.

[DMV2]

ISH with their irrational hate for Kobe... :oldlol:

If Kobe's production from 2000-2004 were merely sidekick numbers, your point would actually make sense.
N!gga came off the damn bench his rookie season and sophomore. :roll:

MJ, Bron...ROTY. True legends. True warriors from the start to the end.

[DMV2]

At the end of the day, 24 wins vs 50 + win PO teams > 7

and 5-2 > 2-4

all that matters.
All that matters is 8 years behind Shaq.

How does dat ass taste, Kobe? :roll:

[JerrySeinfeld]

All that matters is 8 years behind Shaq.

How does dat ass taste, Kobe? :roll:

Lol and whenever Shaq left he tried so hard to ring chase to end with more rings than Kobe but failed, and now any time he talks about Kobe he has nothing but good things to say about him. It's clear who the alpha was in that relationship.

And all while Shaq was ringchasing, Kobe stayed faithful to LA, even through the god awful Smush Parker era... Would love to see LeBron do that when the guy visibly quit, in the Finals, on a supporting cast of Wade/Bosh and solid role players...

Lol you could see Pat Riley shaking his head in exit interviews after watching LeBron's body language in the finals that year. "You can't find the first door out and run." "Stay if you have the guts." Riley was both desperate but also dumbfounded at LeBron's lack of loyalty to commit to the organization of Miami and instead choosing Cleveland just so he could have more of a power and say to where he could quit on his team mid season, and leverage his way to them shipping teammates out.

Hilarious how Kobe is seen as a cancer but LeBron is seen as a great teammate. The same LeBron who came to Cleveland (after ditching them on live TV) on the stipulations they trade Wiggins for empty stats Love, and then not long after his arrival he quit on the team and took a vacation until they traded away the guys he wanted gone.

[nba_55]

He's already ahead

/thread

[TheMarkMadsen]

N!gga came off the damn bench his rookie season and sophomore. :roll:

MJ, Bron...ROTY. True legends. True warriors from the start to the end.

Kobe haters/ lebron stans shook as **** at the moment

:roll: :roll:

[TripleA]

Lebron's better at scoring, passing, rebounding and Defense so ya he is better.
I'm not a idiot likes these laker clowns who think just because Kobe has ring he better than Lebron. If rings did not exist who would be better Lebron by far. Plus I am taking away Kobe's first ring because he was not 1b to Shaq he was a sidekick. So Lebron has two rings to Kobe's four 1 option rings. So is Isiah thomas the second greatest point guard every because he has two ring while Nash, Stockton, Robertson, etc have less. Is Dirk better than Barkely No.

[DMV2]

Lol and whenever Shaq left he tried so hard to ring chase to end with more rings than Kobe but failed, and now any time he talks about Kobe he has nothing but good things to say about him. It's clear who the alpha was in that relationship.

And all while Shaq was ringchasing, Kobe stayed faithful to LA, even through the god awful Smush Parker era... Would love to see LeBron do that when the guy visibly quit, in the Finals, on a supporting cast of Wade/Bosh and solid role players...

Lol you could see Pat Riley shaking his head in exit interviews after watching LeBron's body language in the finals that year. "You can't find the first door out and run." "Stay if you have the guts." Riley was both desperate but also dumbfounded at LeBron's lack of loyalty to commit to the organization of Miami and instead choosing Cleveland just so he could have more of a power and say to where he could quit on his team mid season, and leverage his way to them shipping teammates out.

Hilarious how Kobe is seen as a cancer but LeBron is seen as a great teammate. The same LeBron who came to Cleveland (after ditching them on live TV) on the stipulations they trade Wiggins for empty stats Love, and then not long after his arrival he quit on the team and took a vacation until they traded away the guys he wanted gone.
LOL. Didn't read it.

Boils down to
Kobe = rookie/sophomore benchwarmer, sidekick/Robin for 8 seasons.

P.S. A snitch and a rapist too.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Lebron's better at scoring, passing, rebounding and Defense so ya he is better.
I'm not a idiot likes these laker clowns who think just because Kobe has ring he better than Lebron. If rings did not exist who would be better Lebron by far. Plus I am taking away Kobe's first ring because he was not 1b to Shaq he was a sidekick. So Lebron has two rings to Kobe's four 1 option rings. So is Isiah thomas the second greatest point guard every because he has two ring while Nash, Stockton, Robertson, etc have less. Is Dirk better than Barkely No.

better at defense and scoring :roll: :roll:

"if rings didn't exist" mother ****er if rings didn't exist the NBA wouldn't exist, players wouldn't play games.. GTFO with this loser talk..

and as for the "sidekick shit"

Kobe 01 run: 29/7/6/2/1

Lebron 2013: 26/8/6/2/1

:roll: :roll:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BESnCrgCAAEHKku.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkpBkOBCAAAXNvs.jpg:medium

http://i.imgur.com/Lc9ZYfv.png

http://i.imgur.com/rtMHG2O.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bt7Lq4eCYAAaSUy.jpg

http://sports.cbsimg.net/images/nba/photogallery/shaqtweet.png

[JerrySeinfeld]

"if rings didn't exist"

oh, what a world that would be for LeBron stans :lol

[JerrySeinfeld]

better at defense and scoring :roll: :roll:

"if rings didn't exist" mother ****er if rings didn't exist the NBA wouldn't exist, players wouldn't play games.. GTFO with this loser talk..

and as for the "sidekick shit"

Kobe 01 run: 29/7/6/2/1

Lebron 2013: 26/8/6/2/1

:roll: :roll:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BESnCrgCAAEHKku.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkpBkOBCAAAXNvs.jpg:medium

http://i.imgur.com/Lc9ZYfv.png

http://i.imgur.com/rtMHG2O.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bt7Lq4eCYAAaSUy.jpg

http://sports.cbsimg.net/images/nba/photogallery/shaqtweet.png

welp, looks like this thread is on it's way to page 500

[TripleA]

Was talking about 2000 championship you dumbass Kobe stans. You crying because someone else thinks that their God is not the best. I don't even like le brick his ass is weak mentally and he has no j. But using my eyes I can see his better at basketball than Kobe. Guess who is better than Bitchbe and lebrick.
Magic, bird, Kareem,Duncan, Russell, and chamberlain. You Lebron and Kobe d eaters make me sick think these fools next jordan goat theirs other players in the nba clowns. How bout you go cry to mommy because you just clowned.:confusedshrug:

[DMV2]

better at defense and scoring :roll: :roll:

"if rings didn't exist" mother ****er if rings didn't exist the NBA wouldn't exist, players wouldn't play games.. GTFO with this loser talk..

and as for the "sidekick shit"

Kobe 01 run: 29/7/6/2/1

Lebron 2013: 26/8/6/2/1

:roll: :roll:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BESnCrgCAAEHKku.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkpBkOBCAAAXNvs.jpg:medium

http://i.imgur.com/Lc9ZYfv.png

http://i.imgur.com/rtMHG2O.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bt7Lq4eCYAAaSUy.jpg

http://sports.cbsimg.net/images/nba/photogallery/shaqtweet.png
Can't understand what you posted there.

I don't speak rapist.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Was talking about 2000 championship you dumbass Kobe stans. You crying because someone else thinks that their God is not the best. I don't even like le brick his ass is weak mentally and he has no j. But using my eyes I can see his better at basketball than Kobe. Guess who is better than Bitchbe and lebrick.
Magic, bird, Kareem,Duncan, Russell, and chamberlain. You Lebron and Kobe d eaters make me sick think these fools next jordan goat theirs other players in the nba clowns. How bout you go cry to mommy because you just clowned.:confusedshrug:

oh look another guy who is still living in 2005 when it comes to Kobe

Lakers don't even make the finals without Kobe in 2000, you see that game 7 pic i posted?? that's from the 2000 WCF.. Shaq didn't show up.. Kobe did.. Lakers won..

and if you're using your eyes to come to your conclusion that you need to go back and watch some film..

and while doing that, please find me the finals series where the defense sags off Kobe for the entire series daring him to shoot, or the series where they didn't double him for an entire game..

you Kobe haters are all the same, "Shaq carried Kobe blah blah blah" then you get ether'd and have nothing else to say..

and guess what buddy Kobe actually put up better stats on better efficiency WITHOUT DIESEL .. he also made 3 straight finals and won 2 straight FMVP's.. something the big cactus never got close to doing without Kobe..

Russell has like 8 rings where he only had to win 4 games to make the finals.. not impressed.. Wilt is ranked highly because of his scoring.. yet never could succeed and win as a scorer..

Duncan and the Spurs have collected scavenger titles and never had the championship consistency that Kobe has brought to the Lakers, Spurs haven't even ever 2peated, Kobe's done that twice..

KAJ missed the playoffs b2b years in his prime after Oscar left, only had any success when Magic joined the Lakers.. at the time Oscar and Magic were both top 2-4 players EVER..

you can make arguments against every single guy you mentioned.. yet you dumbass's hold Kobe to this ridiculous double standard that none of these other players get

[TheMarkMadsen]

Can't understand why you posted there.

I don't speak rapist.

you know you've taken the L

:roll: :roll:

know your role jabroni

[Andrei89]

Lebron already surpassed Kobe.

He is the better player. It is as simple as that.

[Indian guy]

:oldlol:

Nobody who isn't a Kobe fan thinks LeBron's inferior to him. Nobody.

[TheMarkMadsen]

:oldlol:

Nobody who isn't a Kobe fan thinks LeBron's inferior to him. Nobody.

I guess MJ Shaq and Bird and many others are huge Kobe stans :oldlol: :oldlol:

[brownmamba00]

depends on how his career turns out

if he can get to 4/10 id place him above kobe

but 2 rings and 4 finals losses ain't touchin' KB's 5 rings for now

[Rose'sACL]

I guess MJ Shaq and Bird and many others are huge Kobe stans :oldlol: :oldlol:
Bird said it before 2012. MJ is mj......you only have to see his team to tell you how rational he is when valuing players. NBA on TNT has given enough evidence to everyone to not listen to him seriously about anything that happens in the court.

Career wise Kobe is still better but lebron has to win 1 more ring with fmvp to be ranked higher than Kobe.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Bird said it before 2012. MJ is mj......you only have to see his team to tell you how rational he is when valuing players. NBA on TNT has given enough evidence to everyone to not listen to him seriously about anything that happens in the court.

ok so anyobody who doesn't agree with you is a Kobe stan

:facepalm :facepalm

[SamuraiSWISH]

You could make a plausible case for Kobe or LeBron being ranked over the other. They're very close on the all-time rankings as it is. Kobe enjoyed the superior team success, and winning. LeBron has the superior individual accolades. As simple as that.

[PJR]

No one with any sense of objectivity thinks Kobe is better than LeBron. :oldlol:


Just because Kobe came into the league, and got to play 8 years with Shaq entering his peak, thus having a greater opportunity for team success much early on his career doesn't make him better than LeBron.

Any one who isn't a moron, and has two eyeballs, knows LeBron is a better and more impactful player than Kobe.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe haters so shook

:roll: :roll:

[nba_55]

No one with any sense of objectivity thinks Kobe is better than LeBron. :oldlol:


Just because Kobe came into the league, and got to play 8 years with Shaq entering his peak, thus having a greater a opportunity for team success much early on his career doesn't make him better than LeBron.

Any one who isn't a moron, and has two eyeballs, knows LeBron is a better and more impactful player than Kobe.

this.

[Rocketswin2013]

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. LeBron
8. Bird
9. Magic
10. Kobe

Kobe is at #10 for me.

[Springsteen]

How well would a hypothetical Lebron and Shaq tandem play together? I think that factors into this.

[TheMarkMadsen]

How well would a hypothetical Lebron and Shaq tandem play together? I think that factors into this.

Lebron seems to really flourish playing with big men who clog the paint...

:lol :lol

playing on the perimeter with Shaq in the post wouldn't exactly highlight Lebron's skill set

[Showtime2001]

Bran stans taking L's left and right so butt hurt and insecure.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No one with any sense of objectivity thinks Kobe is better than LeBron. :oldlol:


Just because Kobe came into the league, and got to play 8 years with Shaq entering his peak, thus having a greater opportunity for team success much early on his career doesn't make him better than LeBron.

Any one who isn't a moron, and has two eyeballs, knows LeBron is a better and more impactful player than Kobe.

If I was an NBA legend I'd take my title chances with two other NBA All Stars in their prime playing in the East then playing with Shaq and a bunch of scrubs in the West. :confusedshrug:

[TripleA]

My eyes tell me that Bitchbe is not a top five player clown neither is Lebrick.
Magic, Bird are better than Kobe MarkMadsen can you tell why Kobe is better than them.

[TheMarkMadsen]

you're going to knock Kobe for having good teammates and then turn around and prop up Magic and Bird..

:oldlol: :oldlol:

that double standard is hilarious

[TripleA]

Give me some reasons why Kobe is better than Magic and Bird. Oh wait you have none.

[SouBeachTalents]

If I was an NBA legend I'd take my title chances with two other NBA All Stars in their prime playing in the East then playing with Shaq and a bunch of scrubs in the West. :confusedshrug:

You seriously think a team is better off with 2012-2014 Wade/Bosh than 2000-2002 Shaq?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You seriously think a team is better off with 2012-2014 Wade/Bosh than 2000-2002 Shaq?

That's not what I said. The Lakers were better but faced much better competition. They were on the brink of elimination in 2000 and 2002 before even getting to the Finals.

[PJR]

If I was an NBA legend I'd take my title chances with two other NBA All Stars in their prime playing in the East then playing with Shaq and a bunch of scrubs in the West. :confusedshrug:

The f*ck does this have to with anything? Even if this were your stance(and it's a stupid one mind you), LeBron didn't play with Wade and Bosh until his 7th year in the league. Played 4 years with that group, and was extremely successful.

Which brings me back to the point of how foolish it is to insist Kobe is better than LeBron because of his number of rings. Get the entire f*ck out of here. :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Give me some reasons why Kobe is better than Magic and Bird. Oh wait you have none.

rings
all star teams
all nba teams
all defensive teams

:confusedshrug:

[HOoopCityJones]

Give me some reasons why Kobe is better than Magic and Bird. Oh wait you have none.

Kobe's the only player in history to have 30,000 pts and at least 6000 asts to compliment it. Most All Nba's alongside Kareem and Duncan.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Give me some reasons why Kobe is better than Magic and Bird. Oh wait you have none.

Kobe has more rings than Bird, same amount of FMVP's, absolutly kills him in longevity.. Bird was out of the league in 10 years..

Kobe was averaging 35/5/5 in his 10th year..

Kobe won 2 rings with Pau Gasol.. Bird won 3 with McCHale, Parrish, Walton, DJ, Ainge..

Bird doesn't have much of an argument over Kobe anymore

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Comparing players of different eras is very difficult. I think Larry Bird would have been even a better player in today's league since he can shoot very well and shot 50/40/90 one season when hand-checking was still allowed :eek:.

I do think that if Magic was on a fast paced team, that so and so team would probably have the highest FT rate (due to good passes that lead to quick shooting fouls) and assist rate in the league.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The f*ck does this have to with anything? Even if this were your stance(and it's a stupid one mind you), LeBron didn't play with Wade and Bosh until his 7th year in the league. Played 4 years with that group, and was extremely successful.

Which brings me back to the point of how foolish it is to insist Kobe is better than LeBron because of his number of rings. Get the entire f*ck out of here. :oldlol:

It's pretty simple Lebron's played his entire career in the East in which his teams can trot to the Finals every yea facing some weak competition. The disparity in strength in conference overshadows everything else. :confusedshrug:

[LAZERUSS]

Kobe was clearly more than a "second fiddle" in '01 and '02. Shaq doesn't win FMVPs in those two years without Kobe's play against the Spurs and Kings in those years.

Kobe was a significant part of four of his five rings, and you could make an argument that he might have saved the Lakers in the '00 Finals when Shaq fouled out of a key game.

Still, his play in the Finals was often borderline pathetic.

IMHO, Lebron just passed him this post-season...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe was clearly more than a "second fiddle" in '01 and '02. Shaq doesn't win FMVPs in those two years without Kobe's play against the Spurs and Kings in those years.

Kobe was a significant part of four of his five rings, and you could make an argument that he might have saved the Lakers in the '00 Finals when Shaq fouled out of a key game.

Still, his play in the Finals was often borderline pathetic.

IMHO, Lebron just passed him this post-season...

"Borderline pathetic" was LeBron in 2011.... lets be serious.

[HOoopCityJones]

Comparing players of different eras is very difficult. I think Larry Bird would have been even a better player in today's league since he can shoot very well and shot 50/40/90 one season when hand-checking was still allowed :eek:.

I do think that if Magic was on a fast paced team, that so and so team would probably have the highest FT rate (due to good passes that lead to quick shooting fouls) and assist rate in the league.

And Kobe would've just be some role player in the 80's? :biggums:

Prime Kobe in the 80's with Magic and Bird is a wash. But same could be said for Wade, Dirk, Bron, AI, KG and Duncan.

[Soundwave]

Shaq (prime) is better than both, shame he didn't take the off-court conditioning stuff seriously.

[LAZERUSS]

"Borderline pathetic" was LeBron in 2011.... lets be serious.

As was Kobe in '04 and '08.

Sorry to do this to the Kobe fans here...but take a look at this...


99-00
Regular season 22.5 ppg .468 FG%
Finals 15.6 ppg .367 FG%
Last Game of Series .296 FG%

00-01
Regular season 28.5 ppg .464 FG%
Finals 24.6 ppg .415 FG%
Last Game of Series .389 FG%

01-02
Regular season 25.2 ppg .469
Finals 26.8 ppg .514 FG%
Last Game of Series .438 FG%

03-04
Regular season 24.0 ppg .438 FG%
Finals 22.6 ppg .381 FG%
Last Game of Series .333 FG%

07-08
Regular season 28.3 ppg .459 FG%
Finals 25.7 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .318 FG%

08-09
Regular season 26.8 ppg .467 FG%
Finals 32.4 ppg .430 FG%
Last Game of Series .435 FG%

09-10
Regular season 27.0 ppg .456 FG%
Finals 28.6 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .250 FG%


Other noteables:


97-98
Swept by Utah 4-0.
Kobe averages 10.0 ppg on a .367 FG%

98-99
Swept by San Antonio 4-0
Last game of the series : Kobe 16 points on a .438 FG%

02-03
Lose to Spurs in WCF's, 4-2.
Last game loss by a score of 110-82 (Kobe with 20 points in a season in which he averaged 30 ppg)

03-04 Finals
Heavily favored Lakers lose to Pistons, 4-1.
In the clinching game five loss Kobe shoots .333 in a 100-87 loss (and LA was down 23 going into 4th quarter)

04-05
Team goes 34-48 and misses playoffs

05-06
Regular season 35.4 ppg .450
Playoffs 27.9 ppg .497
Last game (7) 24 points in a 121-90 loss (after blowing a 3-1 series lead)

06-07
Team goes 42-40
Loses in first round to Suns, 4-1.
Last game of that series, Kobe shoots .394 from the floor

07-08
Lakers are blown out by Celts in Finals.
In game four the Lakers blow a 23 point lead, and lose, in a game in which Kobe shot .316 from the field.
In the clinching game six loss, the Lakers lose by a Finals record margin of 131-92. Kobe shoots .318 from the floor.

10-11
Lakers with HCA are swept by the Mavs, 4-0.
In the clinching game four loss, LA loses 122-86. Kobe shoots .389 from the field.

Again...Lebron is not the only Top-10 player who has black marks in his resume.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe was clearly more than a "second fiddle" in '01 and '02. Shaq doesn't win FMVPs in those two years without Kobe's play against the Spurs and Kings in those years.

Kobe was a significant part of four of his five rings, and you could make an argument that he might have saved the Lakers in the '00 Finals when Shaq fouled out of a key game.

Still, his play in the Finals was often borderline pathetic.

IMHO, Lebron just passed him this post-season...



Still, his play in the Finals was often borderline pathetic.

2001: 25/8/6/2/1 on 42% (had b2b 30 pt games, game 1 really hurt the averages)

2002: 27/6/5/2/1 on 51%



IMHO, Lebron just passed him this post-season...


Lebron: 27/9/8/2 on 42% and 5 TO's per game including an awful series against the Bulls, in a pathetic conference



somehow Kobe's numbers are garbage yet Lebron's post season is enough to move him up the all time list

great logic

[TripleA]

Kobe has more rings than Bird, same amount of FMVP's, absolutly kills him in longevity.. Bird was out of the league in 10 years..

Kobe was averaging 35/5/5 in his 10th year..

Kobe won 2 rings with Pau Gasol.. Bird won 3 with McCHale, Parrish, Walton, DJ, Ainge..

Bird doesn't have much of an argument over Kobe anymore

Larry Bird(50%) was a much better shooter than Kobe(45%)

Larry Bird(10 per game) was a much better rebounder than Kobe(5 per game )

Larry Bird was a much better passer than Kobe!

Larry Bird was a much smarter defender

How was Bird Better? How was Bird not better? Lets look at the stats!

Scoring:

Kobe: 25.5 Bird: 24.3

edge: Kobe (slightly)

Rebounding:

Kobe 5 per game Bird: 10 per game

edge: Bird ( huge)

Assists:

Kobe: 4.8 Bird: 6.3

edge Bird

f.t. %

Kobe: 83% Bird 88%

edge: Bird

f.g. %

Kobe: 45% Bird 50%

edge: Bird

3 pt f.g.%

Kobe 33% Bird 38%

edge Bird

Steals:

Kobe: 1.5 per game Bird: 1.7 per game

edge: Bird

Blocks:

Kobe: 0.5 Bird: 0.8

Edge: Bird

Larry is better at 7 of the top 8 categories in basketball as well as being very close in scoring and much more efficient.

PLUS:
Larry Bird was more clutch

Larry Bird was a better leader


Teams in the 80's were much better than when Kobe won his titles so counting hall of fame players makes little sence. Bird was playing against teams that were loaded with hall of famers.

Kobe was riding SHaq's coat tails to championships against New Jersey and the 76er's. What a joke. How many Hall of fame players on those teams?

your ignorant , look in the mirror and you will see a very ignorant basketball fan.

I actually thought it was closer between these two players. Your answer has pointed out to me and the world, that Kobe is not even close to being as good as Larry Bird!

Larry Bird was MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better than Kobe!

[HOoopCityJones]

Shaq (prime) is better than both, shame he didn't take the off-court conditioning stuff seriously.

I think Shaq was better too.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

As was Kobe in '04 and '08.

Sorry to do this to the Kobe fans here...but take a look at this...



Again...Lebron is not the only Top-10 player who has black marks in his resume.

Yeah the 2004 Pistons and 2008 Celtics. In others words two of the greatest defenses of all time. Are you serious?

[PJR]

It's pretty simple Lebron's played his entire career in the East in which his teams can trot to the Finals every yea facing some weak competition. The disparity in strength in conference overshadows everything else. :confusedshrug:

And Kobe played his entire career in a larger market, with better front office personnel (Jerry West/Mitch Kupchak)...along with the best and most successful coach leading the team.

Please.

[TheMarkMadsen]

As was Kobe in '04 and '08.

Sorry to do this to the Kobe fans here...but take a look at this...



Again...Lebron is not the only Top-10 player who has black marks in his resume.

out of those finals series, only 3 times did Kobe's scoring dip.. and by like 2 points..

okkkk... :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:


Deuce really ****ed you up by point out all of Wilt's post season failures didn't he?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And Kobe played his entire career in a larger market, with better front office personnel (Jerry West/Mitch Kupchak)...along with the best and most successful coach leading the team.

Please.

It doesn't matter how big your market is or how famous your GM is when your facing 3 juggernauts before you even get to the Finals. :facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

out of those finals series, only 3 times did Kobe's scoring dip.. and by like 2 points..

okkkk... :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:


Deuce really ****ed you up by point out all of Wilt's post season failures didn't he?

Yeah...let's ignore the FACT that his FG%'s dropped like a lead balloon, and then in his biggest games in those Finals, including WINS, he couldn't hit a shot to save his life. His lone "good" series came against the hapless Nets.

[PJR]

It doesn't matter how big your market is or how famous your GM is when your facing 3 juggernauts before you even get to the Finals. :facepalm

So the the people put charge in to build the rosters, and coaching staff doesn't matter when it comes to the success of a team?

K.














http://i.gyazo.com/ec0ab81466a4e8ca32c00013b54ae48b.png

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So the the people put charge in to build the rosters, and coaching staff doesn't matter when it comes to the success of a team?

K.














http://i.gyazo.com/ec0ab81466a4e8ca32c00013b54ae48b.png

You already whined about Shaq. How many times do you want to count the same point.

Better market and better GM= better players.

We already spoke about the players ... do you want it to count twice or something?

[DMAVS41]

rings
all star teams
all nba teams
all defensive teams

:confusedshrug:

Holy shit.

And you wonder why I say the things I do about Kobe fans.

Again, those things matter, but you also have to talk about how players actually played the damn game.

And how players played the game trumps subjective awards and team accomplishments.

Doesn't Kobe have the most all defensive selections ever? I think he does. But if someone put together a list of the best defenders ever...he'd never make that list. And if he did...that person is a ****ing moron.

Actual impact trumps undeserved awards.

Hence why you rarely see any other fanbase trump up this shit. And when they do...they are wrong to do it.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Holy shit.

And you wonder why I say the things I do about Kobe fans.

Again, those things matter, but you also have to talk about how players actually played the damn game.

And how players played the game trumps subjective awards and team accomplishments.

Doesn't Kobe have the most all defensive selections ever? I think he does. But if someone put together a list of the best defenders ever...he'd never make that list. And if he did...that person is a ****ing moron.

Actual impact trumps undeserved awards.

Hence why you rarely see any other fanbase trump up this shit. And when they do...they are wrong to do it.


Kobe Bryant played the game at an elite level on both sides of the floor for a longer period of time the impact of which resulted in more championships.

:confusedshrug:

[Mr. Jabbar]

he cant pass kobe after the decision, much less now

[DMAVS41]

Kobe Bryant played the game at an elite level on both sides of the floor for a longer period of time the impact of which resulted in more championships.

:confusedshrug:

Than who?

You know how you can also rank players? By how good they were.

MJ
Russell
Magic
Duncan
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Shaq
Hakeem
Lebron

Why would I take them all over Kobe? Because they were all better players in my opinion....regardless of what subjective awards one gets.

I'll trust my eyes and objective data over voting results.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Than who?

:biggums:

than Magic and Larry Bird...

Why are having a meltdown about a conversation if you don't bother to read the posts that precede it?

[DMAVS41]

:biggums:

than Magic and Larry Bird...

Why are having a meltdown about a conversation if you don't bother to read the posts that precede it?


I asked because I didn't think you were so stupid to say he won more than Magic. Just had to verify you are ignorant as usual.

He didn't win more championships than Magic.

Magic clearly beats Kobe on team success. And even more than just counting rings and finals implies...nobody cares about Kobe's 00 ring where he basically hurt the Lakers in the finals and they still won.

16/5/4 41% TS...96 ortg...116 drtg

Just pathetic that the margin of error was so big that he could play like that and still win a title. It's laughable. But oh yes...lets vault him up the all time list because he has 5 rings and act like that finals didn't happen.

:facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I asked because I didn't think you were so stupid to say he won more than Magic. Just had to verify you are ignorant as usual.

He didn't win more championships than Magic.

Magic clearly beats Kobe on team success.

:facepalm

5 rings plus two gold medals tops 5 rings and one gold medal :confusedshrug:

[tpols]

Than who?

You know how you can also rank players? By how good they were.

MJ
Russell
Magic
Duncan
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Shaq
Hakeem
Lebron

Why would I take them all over Kobe? Because they were all better players in my opinion....regardless of what subjective awards one gets.

I'll trust my eyes and objective data over voting results.

If you're trusting your eye and objective data you could see kobe easily has a case on bird.. slightly less peak but stronger/longer prime and better longevtiy.. and beats him in majority of accolades. Hakeem has an even weaker case career for career.

people may think Charles barkley was a better player than kobe.. but they can't argue he had a better career or "goat ranking".

[DMAVS41]

5 rings plus two gold medals tops 5 rings and one gold medal :confusedshrug:

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DMAVS41]

If you're trusting your eye and objective data you could see kobe easily has a case on bird.. slightly less peak but stronger/longer prime and better longevtiy.. and beats him in majority of accolades. Hakeem has an even weaker case career for career.

people may think Charles barkley was a better player than kobe.. but they can't argue he had a better career.

I completely agree Kobe has a case on Bird. Totally agree Kobe has a case on Hakeem. Completely agree he has a case on Lebron as well.

I don't think one could argue Barkley was a better player than Kobe. At times? Sure, but Kobe's sustained excellence puts him over the top.

Those other guys had the excellence and great careers as well though.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I asked because I didn't think you were so stupid to say he won more than Magic. Just had to verify you are ignorant as usual.

He didn't win more championships than Magic.

Magic clearly beats Kobe on team success. And even more than just counting rings and finals implies...nobody cares about Kobe's 00 ring where he basically hurt the Lakers in the finals and they still won.

16/5/4 41% TS...96 ortg...116 drtg

Just pathetic that the margin of error was so big that he could play like that and still win a title. It's laughable. But oh yes...lets vault him up the all time list because he has 5 rings and act like that finals didn't happen.

:facepalm

Wouldn't even get to the Finals if Kobe didn't save the day against the Trailblazers :confusedshrug:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200006040LAL.html

[DMAVS41]

Wouldn't even get to the Finals if Kobe didn't save the day against the Trailblazers :confusedshrug:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200006040LAL.html

So what?

You know how many guys would have titles if it was just about getting to the finals playing 2nd banana to peak Shaq?

Terrible argument.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So what?

You know how many guys would have titles if it was just about getting to the finals playing 2nd banana to peak Shaq?

Terrible argument.

How many? What does the "objective data" say? :oldlol:

[DFish24]

Nope, sorry. Not with a 2/6 finals record all while handpicking his teammates. The only reason Wilt gets any consideration is because he holds so many regular season records, even then it wouldn't be unreasonable to have Wilt outside the Top 10. Bran simply doesn't have a good case for the Top 10, hes Top 15-20 tho.

[DMAVS41]

How many? What does the "objective data" say? :oldlol:

Well...a lot.

Every star player that ever made the finals and could outproduce 16/5/4 41% TS...and playing only 5 of 6 games.

So...a ton actually.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Well...a lot.

Every star player that ever made the finals and could outproduce 16/5/4 41% TS...and playing only 5 of 6 games.

So...a ton actually.

:facepalm

Hint: You don't jump straight to the Finals.

[Springsteen]

Nope, sorry. Not with a 2/6 finals record all while handpicking his teammates. The only reason Wilt gets any consideration is because he holds so many regular season records, even then it wouldn't be unreasonable to have Wilt outside the Top 10. Bran simply doesn't have a good case for the Top 10, hes Top 15-20 tho.

Most NBA legends would disagree with you. :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm

Hint: You don't jump straight to the Finals.


Hint:

Players that made the finals without peak Shaq as the best player on their teams are likely to make finals with peak Shaq coached by Phil.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Hint:

Players that made the finals without peak Shaq as the best player on their teams are likely to make finals with peak Shaq coached by Phil.

I not seeing any objective data being presented. Merely wishful thinking and revisionist history. :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

whats the point of even discussing Kobe with DMAVS?? He legit doesn't think Kobe is top 10 all time, and as soon as you counter his points, he just changes the subject to something else

he hates when Kobe fans list out accomplishments yet a page later will throw out some shit like "anybody could win with da MDE"

[DMAVS41]

I not seeing any objective data being presented. Merely wishful thinking and revisionist history. :confusedshrug:

What?

You don't want objective data. Because it shits all over Kobe.

What you want is to pretend like Kobe's 00 ring should carry the same value as Duncan's 03 rings...and on and on.

What you want, when comparing Kobe and Lebron, is to pretend like there wasn't an absurd difference in supporting casts and coaching when they made the finals.

Want some data? As recently rated by 538.

4 of Lebron's 6 finals supporting casts were worse than Kobe's worst. LOL

[DMAVS41]

whats the point of even discussing Kobe with DMAVS?? He legit doesn't think Kobe is top 10 all time, and as soon as you counter his points, he just changes the subject to something else

he hates when Kobe fans list out accomplishments yet a page later will throw out some shit like "anybody could win with da MDE"

you aren't countering my points at all.

it's not even a discussion.

and until this season...I actually had kobe at 10th all time.

I just think Lebron has done enough now to knock him out.

[TheMarkMadsen]

What?

You don't want objective data. Because it shits all over Kobe.

What you want is to pretend like Kobe's 00 ring should carry the same value as Duncan's 03 rings...and on and on.

What you want, when comparing Kobe and Lebron, is to pretend like there wasn't an absurd difference in supporting casts and coaching when they made the finals.

Want some data? As recently rated by 538.

4 of Lebron's 6 finals supporting casts were worse than Kobe's worst. LOL


and you sit here and act like Duncan's 07 & 14 ring should carry the same weight as Kobe in 09 & 10

[Yao Ming's Foot]

whats the point of even discussing Kobe with DMAVS?? He legit doesn't think Kobe is top 10 all time, and as soon as you counter his points, he just changes the subject to something else

he hates when Kobe fans list out accomplishments yet a page later will throw out some shit like "anybody could win with da MDE"

It's a brilliant strategy. We can't talk the things that actually happened but must entertain his hypothetical fantasies because of vague unlisted "objective data" and the "eye test". :lol

[TheMarkMadsen]

you aren't countering my points at all.

it's not even a discussion.

and until this season...I actually had kobe at 10th all time.

I just think Lebron has done enough now to knock him out.

i dont give two shits about where you rank Kobe, you're in every thread trying to throw shade on him, you hold these ridiculous double standards against Kobe..

there's just no point

[DMAVS41]

and you sit here and act like Duncan's 07 & 14 ring should carry the same weight as Kobe in 09 & 10

14? Absolutely not.

07? Sure...not sure why it wouldn't. Duncan was a ****ing monster in 07 and easily as good as Kobe was in 09 and 10.

this is why you are so stupid. you actually think Kobe deserves more credit than Duncan in 09/10 vs 07.

ROFL....

[DMAVS41]

It's a brilliant strategy. We can't talk the things that actually happened but must entertain his hypothetical fantasies because of vague unlisted "objective data" and the "eye test". :lol

no.

i'm saying you can talk about everything.

again...i'm in favor of taking it all in.

you are in favor of only talking about titles and awards...and with no context.

[DMAVS41]

i dont give two shits about where you rank Kobe, you're in every thread trying to throw shade on him, you hold these ridiculous double standards against Kobe..

there's just no point


It's not throwing shade to not put him in the top 10.

And I dont' have double standards. you and your clowns do.

and you're in every thread propping him.

there's just no point

[Springsteen]

^ what does any of this have to do with lebron lol

[TripleA]

KObe has less playoff win shares than Lebron,Bird and Magic and has by far the lowest Value over replacement and BPM.:lol

[TheMarkMadsen]

14? Absolutely not.

07? Sure...not sure why it wouldn't. Duncan was a ****ing monster in 07 and easily as good as Kobe was in 09 and 10.

:lol :lol


Duncan 07 playoffs: 22/12/3 on 56% TS

finals: 18/12/4 on 48% TS


Kobe 09 playoffs: 30/6/6 on 56% TS

finals: 32/6/7 on 53% TS

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What?

You don't want objective data. Because it shits all over Kobe.

What you want is to pretend like Kobe's 00 ring should carry the same value as Duncan's 03 rings...and on and on.

What you want, when comparing Kobe and Lebron, is to pretend like there wasn't an absurd difference in supporting casts and coaching when they made the finals.

Want some data? As recently rated by 538.

4 of Lebron's 6 finals supporting casts were worse than Kobe's worst. LOL

Please try to stay on topic. I never said anything about Duncan. You should could replace 00 Kobe with a lot of players and still win the title.

List the players and the objective data that supports such a statement

[SouBeachTalents]

and you sit here and act like Duncan's 07 & 14 ring should carry the same weight as Kobe in 09 & 10

It's honestly inaccurate to link '07 & '14 together. Sure, he didn't win Finals MVP either year, but Duncan was still the Spurs best player in '07, and very clearly their best player through the first 3 rounds of the playoffs. I'm not even saying it should necessarily hold the same "weight" as Kobe's '09 & '10 titles, but '07 & '14 are two completely different stories

[tpols]

For duncan-kobe,

00 kobe = 14 duncan
01 kobe slightly < 03 Duncan
09 Kobe slightly > 07 Duncan
10 Kobe = 05 Duncan
02 Kobe = 99 Duncan

They're pretty equal in terms of their impact to rings.. kobe also has repeats and head to heads on duncan in the playoffs.. can't argue supporting casts since the help chart shows duncan has actually had the best help of anyone besides Michael jordan. I may need to reevaluate my rankings and knock duncan down one.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

no.

i'm saying you can talk about everything.

again...i'm in favor of taking it all in.

you are in favor of only talking about titles and awards...and with no context.


What's the context you idiot? Jesus Christ. What makes you think Kobe gets awards any differently than anyone else before and after him?

[DMAVS41]

Please try to stay on topic. I never said anything about Duncan. You should could replace 00 Kobe with a lot of players and still win the title.

List the players and the objective data that supports such a statement

And what's the topic again?

How we can only talk about titles and awards when evaluating players?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And what's the topic again?

How we can only talk about titles and awards when evaluating players?

Are you autistic?

[DMAVS41]

What's the context you idiot? Jesus Christ. What makes you think Kobe gets awards any differently than anyone else before and after him?

the context?

easy...Kobe's 00 ring is clearly a level below most titles won as the best player on teams.

easy...Kobe's all defense selections are a joke.

easy...nobody other than kobe fans use solely awards/titles to evaluate a player...they actually talk about how they played the game.

come on son...not hard to follow

[TheMarkMadsen]

It's honestly inaccurate to link '07 & '14 together. Sure, he didn't win Finals MVP either year, but Duncan was still the Spurs best player in '07, and very clearly their best player through the first 3 rounds of the playoffs. I'm not even saying it should necessarily hold the same "weight" as Kobe's '09 & '10 titles, but '07 & '14 are two completely different stories

here's the thing

people sit here and nit pick every single little thing about Kobe

you think if Kobe averaged 18 points on 48% TS at 30 years old (the same age Kobe was in 09) we would put that run on the same level as a guy who put up 30 ppg on 56% TS through the entire playoffs while raising his ppg in the finals?

absolutly not

[DMAVS41]

Are you autistic?

Are you retarded?

You earlier claimed Kobe won more than Magic.

So what point are you making? Please spell it out so I can **** you up as usual.

[TripleA]

So, KObe has less playoff win shares than Lebron,Bird and Magic and has by far the lowest Value over replacement and BPM.
KOBE
21.0 7.3 28.3 .157 3.7 0.7 4.4 11.5

BIRD
13.8 11.1 25.8 .173 3.9 3.2 6.9 11.9

LEBRON
24.0 12.1 36.1 .236 7.3 3.0 10.3 19.9

MAGIC
23.1 9.5 32.6 .208 5.2 2.1 7.4 17.7

DUNCAN
20.4 17.0 37.5 .196 4.5 3.8 6.0 14.2

[DMAVS41]

here's the thing

people sit here and nit pick every single little thing about Kobe

you think if Kobe averaged 18 points on 48% TS at 30 years old (the same age Kobe was in 09) we would put that run on the same level as a guy who put up 30 ppg on 56% TS through the entire playoffs while raising his ppg in the finals?

absolutly not


If Kobe could dominate a game defensively like Duncan they wouldn't care to be honest.

[TheMarkMadsen]

DMAVS was literally just trying to throw shade on and basically take away Kobe's 2000 run because of the finals scoring and TS (even though those numbers include a game Kobe played like 9 minutes in)

yet Duncan averaging 18ppg on 48% TS in the 07 finals doesn't hurt this run at all

:oldlol: :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

the context?

easy...Kobe's 00 ring is clearly a level below most titles won as the best player on teams.

easy...Kobe's all defense selections are a joke.

easy...nobody other than kobe fans use solely awards/titles to evaluate a player...they actually talk about how they played the game.

come on son...not hard to follow

So what? The same is true as other legends. Kareem won a title when he was 40. Duncan's last title was weak. Shaq wasn't Shaq for his last title . Wade wasn't Wade for his as well. You are not saying anything.

Tell that to the coaches who used their "eye test" to select him for them over and over again. :confusedshrug:

There are billions of words on the internet hyping up Kobe for how he played the game. I'm not interested who can out mythologize each other.

[DMAVS41]

DMAVS was literally just trying to throw shade on and basically take away Kobe's 2000 run because of the finals scoring and TS (even though those numbers include a game Kobe played like 9 minutes in)

yet Duncan averaging 18ppg on 48% TS in the 07 finals doesn't hurt this run at all

:oldlol: :oldlol:

No...because Duncan was an all time great force on defense at that point. Let's compare shall we.

Playoff runs:

Duncan - 22/12/3 56% TS 111 ortg....98 drtg
Kobe - 21/4/4 52% TS 107 ortg...107 drtg

Finals:

Duncan - 18/12/4 48% TS 102 ortg...91 drtg
Kobe - 16/5/4 41% TS 96 ortg...116 drtg


That's called ether son.

Bend over.

It's not remotely comparable...like at all.

[RoseCity07]

If Lebron lost 3 games, went scoreless in each, and retired after the series, he'd still be better than Kobe. He passed Kobe a long time ago.

[DMAVS41]

So what? The same is true as other legends. Kareem won a title when he was 40. Duncan's last title was weak. Shaq wasn't Shaq for his last title . Wade wasn't Wade for his as well. You are not saying anything.

Tell that to the coaches who used their "eye test" to select him for them over and over again. :confusedshrug:

There are billions of words on the internet hyping up Kobe for how he played the game. I'm not interested who can out mythologize each other.

And nobody uses those as the reason they are better. That is my whole point. I mean...it speaks to longevity that Kareem and Duncan were still so good late in their careers, but the act of winning those late rings clearly had more to do with their help.

You aren't juggling your points well at all here.

You'd have a valid point if you were arguing with someone that was telling you Kareem is better than Kobe because he has more titles, but I'm not doing that.

So your point is invalid.

Sadly, for you, your above post makes my point actually. It's stupid to compare players solely on awards and titles...even worse with no context. Thanks.

[KiiiiNG]

No...because Duncan was an all time great force on defense at that point. Let's compare shall we.

Playoff runs:

Duncan - 22/12/3 56% TS 111 ortg....98 drtg
Kobe - 21/4/4 52% TS 107 ortg...107 drtg

Finals:

Duncan - 18/12/4 48% TS 102 ortg...91 drtg
Kobe - 16/5/4 41% TS 96 ortg...116 drtg


That's called ether son.

Bend over.
kobe stans beware, dmavs spraying rat poison 'round yall like i spray lysol after i take a shit.

dmavs ladies and gentlemen!

[pauk]

Yes, because losing earlier than Finals or missing the playoffs is more prestigious.... and when you lose in Finals either one of your rings or mvps gets taken away and hence you drop down the all-time list....

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/19/199fc1991d79d23592e4d467d3fd605721d7f238e9ffabc68e 558542819e9a85.jpg

[tmacattack33]

From the insidehoops main forum page it looked like this thread was created by DMavs right after he posted here.

I was about to lose all respect for him, but then i clicked the thread and realized that he was just the most recent poster and not the thread creator.

[TheMarkMadsen]

No...because Duncan was an all time great force on defense at that point. Let's compare shall we.

Playoff runs:

Duncan - 22/12/3 56% TS 111 ortg....98 drtg
Kobe - 21/4/4 52% TS 107 ortg...107 drtg

Finals:

Duncan - 18/12/4 48% TS 102 ortg...91 drtg
Kobe - 16/5/4 41% TS 96 ortg...116 drtg


That's called ether son.

Bend over.

It's not remotely comparable...like at all.

why are you comparing 07 and 00??

I asked you if 07 was on the same level as 09, and just used your own dumb logic against you (bad scoring series in the finals = ring doesn't count) to show how you completely overlook stuff for other players that you ride Kobe for

and here you go.. changing topics, comparing 07 to 00 when I was talking about 09 and 07

Classic DMAVS :roll: :roll:

and even when you compare those runs, Kobe was scoring the same, more of a playmaker and was an absolute beast defensively.. and seriously why are you still using Orgt and Drgt for individual player like a dumbass??

[KiiiiNG]

Yes, because losing earlier than Finals or missing the playoffs is more prestigious.... and when you lose in Finals either one of your rings or mvps gets taken away and hence you drop down the all-time list....

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/19/199fc1991d79d23592e4d467d3fd605721d7f238e9ffabc68e 558542819e9a85.jpg
bird won more rings in less time.

damn it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lebron needs to get another one soon.

[PsychoBe]

boiled down.

kobe:

[B]5

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And nobody uses those as the reason they are better. That is my whole point. I mean...it speaks to longevity that Kareem and Duncan were still so good late in their careers, but the act of winning those late rings clearly had more to do with their help.

You aren't juggling your points well at all here.

You'd have a valid point if you were arguing with someone that was telling you Kareem is better than Kobe because he has more titles, but I'm not doing that.

So your point is invalid.

Sadly, for you, your above post makes my point actually. It's stupid to compare players solely on awards and titles...even worse with no context. Thanks.

So in other words you have no point. Kobe's ring count and award totals in context of other legends in total are just as valid as anybody else's.

[DMAVS41]

why are you comparing 07 and 00??

I asked you if 07 was on the same level as 09, and just used your own dumb logic against you (bad scoring series in the finals = ring doesn't count) to show how you completely overlook stuff for other players that you ride Kobe for

and here you go.. changing topics, comparing 07 to 00 when I was talking about 09 and 07

Classic DMAVS :roll: :roll:


I compared it to 00 to show you the difference in 07 vs 00 finals...you were the one that brought that up you clown.

Are you serious right now?

You just got done posting that I created a double standard by "throwing shade" on Kobe for 00....but what you didn't realize is that Duncan was way better in the 07 finals than Kobe was in 00.

Not only did Duncan score better, but he did so on 7% better TS...which is ****ing huge!

But he had a 25 point better drtg...which is beyond ****ing huge!

The fact that you think they are comparable shows just how ignorant you are you clown. It's classic you...talk out of your ass...get owned...then cry about something that isn't true.

That is your problem...you think a guy like Duncan's value is simply tied to scoring. LOL...he's one of the 5 or so best defensive players of all time. Kobe an absolute beast defensively? Just no...very good at times (not at all in the finals)? Sure...

As for 09 vs 07....look at the data. It's virtually identical. Kobe was better offensively...Duncan was better defensively. All the advanced metrics grade them out similarly iirc as well.

The fact that you think Kobe deserves extra credit here is exactly the point I'm speaking to.

[catch24]

Why are people listing Kobe's 2000 finals stats (and ignoring his ATG performance in game 4) as if his ALL AROUND postseason numbers don't exist...or matter?

^21/5/4/2/2 with elite defense YET we don't count this ring because...? Why do we count Duncan's rings in 2014 and 2007?

Aside from that double-standard, I don't rate Kobe in the top 5 - and I'm not even sure dude has a case. He is an undisputed top 10 player though.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I compared it to 00 to show you the difference in 07 vs 00 finals...you were the one that brought that up you clown.

Are you serious right now?

You just got done posting that I created a double standard by "throwing shade" on Kobe for 00....but what you didn't realize is that Duncan was way better in the 07 finals than Kobe was in 00.

Not only did Duncan score better, but he did so on 7% better TS...which is ****ing huge!

But he had a 25 point better drtg...which is beyond ****ing huge!

The fact that you think they are comparable shows just how ignorant you are you clown. It's classic you...talk out of your ass...get owned...then cry about something that isn't true.

That is your problem...you think a guy like Duncan's value is simply tied to scoring. LOL...he's one of the 5 or so best defensive players of all time.

you are some kind of stupid aren't you..??

I wasn't comparing 07 and 00, i was simply pointing out how you want to take away Kobe's 00 ring because of a bad finals yet you turn around and claim 07 Duncan's run was on the level of Kobe's 09 run while ignoring Duncan's poor finals..

according to you Duncan playing poorly in the finals doesn't hurt his run at all..

but Kobe playing poorly in the finals invalidates his entire ring..

yeah no bias there :oldlol: :oldlol:

i mean.. you can't be that stupid...

and again how many times do you need to be called out for using Orgt and Drgt for individual players?? That stat isn't meant to be used for individuals

[PsychoBe]

boiled down.

kobe:

[B]5

[DMAVS41]

you are some kind of stupid aren't you..??

I wasn't comparing 07 and 00, i was simply pointing out how you want to take away Kobe's 00 ring because of a bad finals yet you turn around and claim 07 Duncan's run was on the level of Kobe's 09 run while ignoring Duncan's poor finals..

according to you Duncan playing poorly in the finals doesn't hurt his run at all..

but Kobe playing poorly in the finals invalidates his entire ring..

yeah no bias there :oldlol: :oldlol:

i mean.. you can't be that stupid...

and again how many times do you need to be called out for using Orgt and Drgt for individual players?? That stat isn't meant to be used for individuals


take away his ring? what?

I simply said we have to use context with it.

and you absolutely compared Kobe's 00 finals to Duncan's 07 finals...that was the whole point of your post.

you got roasted and are now changing your tune as usual.

here...let me get your post for you:

DMAVS was literally just trying to throw shade on and basically take away Kobe's 2000 run because of the finals scoring and TS (even though those numbers include a game Kobe played like 9 minutes in)

yet Duncan averaging 18ppg on 48% TS in the 07 finals doesn't hurt this run at all


So you weren't comparing the two? ROFL...

And what you failed to notice was that Duncan had a 7% higher TS...scored more...and absolutely dominated defensively...all while Kobe made a negative impact defensively in his finals.

It's not comparable.

What is comparable is Duncan's 07 run and Kobe's 09 and 10 runs....but you'll dispute that because you are a moron.

[DMAVS41]

Why are people listing Kobe's 2000 finals stats (and ignoring his ATG performance in game 4) as if his ALL AROUND postseason numbers don't exist...or matter?

^21/5/4/2/2 with elite defense YET we don't count this ring because...? Why do we count Duncan's rings in 2014 and 2007?

Aside from that double-standard, I don't rate Kobe in the top 5 - and I'm not even sure dude has a case. He is an undisputed top 10 player though.

Stop listing 07 as comparable to 00. Please. I already ethered that.

And no, he's not undisputed top 10.

MJ
Russell
Magic
Duncan
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Shaq
Hakeem
Lebron

Kobe is not clear cut better than anyone on that list. Sorry...

[KiiiiNG]

Stop listing 07 as comparable to 00. Please. I already ethered that.
:roll:

on a roll like cottonelle you were MADE for all of this shit.

[catch24]

Stop listing 07 as comparable to 00. Please. I already ethered that.

Duncan in 2007 was better, but if we're going by the logic being used in this thread, they are definitely comparable.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan in 2007 was better, but if we're going by the logic being used in this thread, they are definitely comparable.

No they aren't.

Duncan was the clear cut best player on his team and outperformed Kobe quite easily.

Kobe's 09/10 titles are similar to Duncan's 07.

[branslowski]

:roll:

on a roll like cottonelle you were MADE for all of this shit.

Re-read what he's posting kid. I won't crush you for this though, I mean the other day some chick was arguing that the sky is green and I completely had her back...Although that was probably because she was hot....I'm assuming your reasoning for doing the same is that you hate Kobe? God help us all if you think dmavs is hot.

[catch24]

No they aren't.

Duncan was the clear cut best player on his team and outperformed Kobe quite easily.
And if Duncan were playing with Shaq, he would be the clear-cut second best player.

What's your point?

[24-Inch_Chrome]

LeBron/Kobe are at 10/11 for me, respectively. They're both bottom tier top-10 calibre players though.

Tim Duncan though. :applause:

[branslowski]

No they aren't.

Duncan was the clear cut best player on his team and outperformed Kobe quite easily.

Kobe's 09/10 titles are similar to Duncan's 07.

Honestly Duncan is never really the clear cut best player on his team, because there were times when Parker and Manu carried the Spurs while Duncan can have a 17pt game scoring no clutch buckets for his team.

[DMAVS41]

And if he were playing with Shaq, he would be the clear-cut second best player.

What's your point?

What?

You said they were comparable. Which they weren't in any way. Not only was Duncan the best player on his team, but he outperformed Kobe quite easily.

If Kobe had been the best player on his team...they wouldn't have even made the finals.

So...not comparable at all really.

[daily]

Dmavs posts more about Kobe than the Kobe fans do :oldlol:

[KiiiiNG]

Re-read what he's posting kid. I won't crush you for this though, I mean the other day some chick was arguing that the sky is green and I completely had her back...Although that was probably because she was hot....I'm assuming your reasoning for doing the same is that you hate Kobe? God help us all if you think dmavs is hot.
all aboard the ether train. next stop: meltdown city

:djparty :djparty :dancin

[DMAVS41]

Re-read what he's posting kid. I won't crush you for this though, I mean the other day some chick was arguing that the sky is green and I completely had her back...Although that was probably because she was hot....I'm assuming your reasoning for doing the same is that you hate Kobe? God help us all if you think dmavs is hot.

Nah...you just "hot" for Kobe.

That is what is blinding you brah...

I can assure you the balanced argument here isn't the one saying Kobe is indisputably better than Lebron and Hakeem and Bird and Duncan...or whatever others you guys list.

That's a bold claim and your side has done very little to support it.

[PsychoBe]

Nah...you just "hot" for Kobe.

That is what is blinding you brah...

I can assure you the balanced argument here isn't the one saying Kobe is indisputably better than Lebron and Hakeem and Bird and Duncan...or whatever others you guys list.

That's a bold claim and your side has done very little to support it.

boiled down.

kobe:

[B]5

[branslowski]

Nah...you just "hot" for Kobe.

That is what is blinding you brah...

I can assure you the balanced argument here isn't the one saying Kobe is indisputably better than Lebron and Hakeem and Bird and Duncan...or whatever others you guys list.

That's a bold claim and your side has done very little to support it.

Nah, I see you getting crushed in here on topics and then jumping to another argument once you lose...I also see you cherry picking sh!t to fit an argument or better yet your agenda....But that's just me, have at it, I don't have all day to debate in circles with you bro.:cheers:

[G0ATbe]

No. He never stood a chance anyway.

[catch24]

What?

You said they were comparable. Which they weren't in any way. Not only was Duncan the best player on his team, but he outperformed Kobe quite easily.

Duncan was better, but they both averaged ~22 points and were elite defensive players; its not like Duncan was playing in another stratosphere.

And no. I said they were comparable under the line of thinking in this thread. By their standards, they had a below average finals, but were really good in the postseason overall.

Why do we act like Kobe's ring in 2000 has much less weight just because he played with Shaq? Again, that version of Duncan would have been Shaq's second-fiddle as well.

[DMAVS41]

No. I said they were comparable under the line of thinking in this thread. Both had bad finals by their standards, but we're really good in the postseason overall.

Why do we act like Kobe's ring in 2000 has much less weight just because he played with Shaq? Again, that version of Duncan would have been Shaq's second-fiddle as well.

That is missing the point. That version of Duncan was a much better player than Kobe was in 00.

The rest is just noise.

Duncan led the league in RAPM in 07 and was a two way dominant force on another level than Kobe was.

Kobe wasn't ready to lead a team to a title as the best player in 00. His team, even with another elite player instead of Shaq, would never have won the title that year.

So again, they aren't comparable.

Also, Duncan was much better in the 07 finals than Kobe was in the 00 finals...

7% TS difference. Dominance on the glass and on defense...scored more. Played every game...

Just not comparable.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan was better, but they both averaged ~22 points and were elite defensive players; its not like Duncan was playing in another stratosphere.

And no. I said they were comparable under the line of thinking in this thread. By their standards, they had a below average finals, but were really good in the postseason overall.

Why do we act like Kobe's ring in 2000 has much less weight just because he played with Shaq? Again, that version of Duncan would have been Shaq's second-fiddle as well.

Pretending their defense was comparable is your first mistake.

This is a perfect example of just being blinded by Kobe or not knowing the game.

Duncan absolutely was a different class of player here.

07 Duncan was as good as 09 and 10 Kobe. That is what you are missing.

[Eric Cartman]

DMavs taking it in the ass, no lube.

Just take the L you filthy sob.

[catch24]

Pretending their defense was comparable is your first mistake.

This is a perfect example of just being blinded by Kobe or not knowing the game.

Duncan absolutely was a different class of player here.

07 Duncan was as good as 09 and 10 Kobe. That is what you are missing.

Kobe was a phenom on the defensive end that year, and easily one of the best defensive players in the game. Whether or not he had as much impact on that end as Duncan did, I won't argue... but I'm not gonna pretend its not close either.

I totally disagree with the 09 and 10 Kobe comparison, but won't argue something that is bananas to me.

Regardless of 2007 though, there is still a double-standard (2014). That is the point at hand.

[branslowski]

Pretending their defense was comparable is your first mistake.

This is a perfect example of just being blinded by Kobe or not knowing the game.

Duncan absolutely was a different class of player here.

07 Duncan was as good as 09 and 10 Kobe. That is what you are missing.

Meh....Duncan was a better Paint defender, Kobe was a better perimeter defender...Kobe has a sh!t load of All-Defensive teams, As does Duncan...Kobe's top 5 All-Time on the Playoff steals list as is Duncan top 5 All-Time playoff Blocks list...Duncan slightly better but not by much. Spurs defense is great due to Pop's scheme. Pop is the real best player on the Spurs...Lets Duncan be able to have multiple 12pt 8reb games during the regular season and still win...Has the ability to use Tony Parker during the Finals and have him win Finals MVP...Just like another player who was clearly better than Duncan during last years Finals...Kawhi Leanord.

Duncan isn't as important as you think, he's great but don't act as if it isn't debatable to compare Kobe and Duncan...Actually Kobe won player of the decade over Duncan, no shocker there.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe was a phenom on the defensive end that year, and easily one of the best defensive players in the game. Whether or not he had as much impact on that end as Duncan did, I won't argue... but I'm not gonna pretend its not close either.

I totally disagree with the 09 and 10 Kobe comparison, but won't argue something that is bananas to me.

Regardless of 2007 though, there is still a double-standard (2014). That is the point at hand.

Except nobody ever claimed Duncan's title in 14 should be put on the level of Kobe's 09 and 10 or 01 and 02 titles...or if they did...it wasn't me.

Also, you won't argue 07 vs 09/10 because you'd lose. Again, this is why you guys think people are hating when they aren't.

Duncan led the league in RAPM in 07. He was a ****ing monster. He equals or beats Kobe in virtually every measurable on impact in the years in question.

And you think it's crazy to compare them? Really?

Seriously...take a look:

Regular season:

Kobe - 27/5/5 56% TS 24.4 PER....115 ortg 106 drg...finished 6th in the league in RAPM

Duncan - 20/11/3 58% TS 26.1 PER...111 ortg 94 drtg...finished 1st in the league in RAPM

Shall I keep going? Or do you yield that it's comparable?

[catch24]

WTF is RAPM? We're gonna use vague, advanced stats that "try" to measure in-game impact?

This shit is hilarious man. :oldlol:

[Eric Cartman]

Lebron vs Kobe his is truly the never ending debate, probably the greatest of all time, blowing these ones out of the water:

Tupac vs Biggie
West Coast vs East Coast
Montana vs Brady
Abortion
Euthanasia
Cats vs Dogs
Gay Marriage
Death Penalty
Capitalism vs Communism
Religion vs Atheism
Apple vs Android
Drug legalization
Liberals vs Conservatives

^ all these debates are shit compared to godbe vs legod.

[branslowski]

Except nobody ever claimed Duncan's title in 14 should be put on the level of Kobe's 09 and 10 or 01 and 02 titles...or if they did...it wasn't me.

Also, you won't argue 07 vs 09/10 because you'd lose. Again, this is why you guys think people are hating when they aren't.

Duncan led the league in RAPM in 07. He was a ****ing monster. He equals or beats Kobe in virtually every measurable on impact in the years in question.

And you think it's crazy to compare them? Really?

RAPM?.:oldlol:

Also 09' Kobe>>>>>Any Duncan....I'd take 30-5-5 over 22-11-3 any day. Points is the most important stat in Basketball.

[catch24]

Except nobody ever claimed Duncan's title in 14 should be put on the level of Kobe's 09 and 10 or 01 and 02 titles...or if they did...it wasn't me.

That's not what I'm saying. If Kobe's 2000 ring isn't really impressive then neither is Duncan's 2014 ring.

:confusedshrug:


And you think it's crazy to compare them? Really?

Seriously...take a look:

Regular season:

Kobe - 27/5/5 56% TS 24.4 PER....115 ortg 106 drg...finished 6th in the league in RAPM

Duncan - 20/11/3 58% TS 26.1 PER...111 ortg 94 drtg...finished 1st in the league in RAPM

Kobe was a better postseason performer both years. Get out of here, you lunatic. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

WTF is RAPM? We're gonna use vague, advanced stats that "try" to measure in-game impact?

This shit is hilarious man. :oldlol:

It's actually pretty decent, but we don't have to use it.

What would you like to use?

Both players led their teams to titles as the clear cut best players. Duncan equals or beats Kobe in pretty much all the objective metrics.

I thought Duncan's dominance on defense that year was all time great.

Both players had similar on/off help. Both had great coaches.

Why was Kobe so much better?

[branslowski]

It's actually pretty decent, but we don't have to use it.

What would you like to use?

Both players led their teams to titles as the clear cut best players. Duncan equals or beats Kobe in pretty much all the objective metrics.

I thought Duncan's dominance on defense that year was all time great.

Both players had similar on/off help. Both had great coaches.

Why was Kobe so much better?

I've heard no one arguing saying Kobe is much better than Duncan, that would be dumb, just as it would be dumb to say Duncan is much better than Kobe yet you're saying that...Are you dumb on purpose or naw?:coleman:

[catch24]

It's actually pretty decent, but we don't have to use it.

What would you like to use?

Both players led their teams to titles as the clear cut best players. Duncan equals or beats Kobe in pretty much all the objective metrics.

I thought Duncan's dominance on defense that year was all time great.

Both players had similar on/off help. Both had great coaches.

Why was Kobe so much better?

In the regular-season and playoffs, Kobe was a MUCH better offensive player, and a pretty decent defender sans 2010.

I thought he played with less help than Duncan (had more HOFers), and I feel Pop is a better coach than Phil...but not by much.

This "debate" feels absurd, so I'm not gonna even entertain it anymore. Later dude.

[DMAVS41]

That's not what I'm saying. If Kobe's 2000 ring isn't really impressive then neither is Duncan's 2014 ring.



Kobe was a better postseason performer both years. Get out of here, you lunatic. :oldlol:


I agree about that. I mean...they are both "impressive", but they aren't shifting career legacies or something.

How was Kobe better though? I mean...he might have been better, but your argument is that it's crazy to compare them. Which you can't support at all....you certainly can't support it in the regular season. Lets try the playoffs.

I'll do both years for Kobe.

Kobe - 30/6/6 57% TS 25.8 PER .214 WS/48 116 ortg 106 drtg

Duncan 22/12/3 56% TS 27.4 PER .214 WS/48 111 ortg 98 drtg

Look pretty comparable to me.

But by all means...support your claim that Kobe was way better and it's "bananas" to compare their impact.

[DMAVS41]

In the regular-season and playoffs, Kobe was a MUCH better offensive player, and a pretty decent defender sans 2010.

I thought he played with less help than Duncan (had more HOFers), and I feel Pop is a better coach than Phil...but not by much.

This "debate" feels absurd, so I'm not gonna even entertain it anymore. Later dude.

That's not an argument.

It's just a way to not support your claim.

I think Kobe was a better offensive player for sure, but Duncan was also a much better defender.

And I think they had a very similar impact.

And what do you know...the objective metrics support that.

But the debate "feels absurd" to you? That is supposed to mean something?

Waive that white flag.

[DMAVS41]

I've heard no one arguing saying Kobe is much better than Duncan, that would be dumb, just as it would be dumb to say Duncan is much better than Kobe yet you're saying that...Are you dumb on purpose or naw?:coleman:

Please try and follow.

The claim was made that Kobe was much better in 09/10 than Duncan was in 07. I don't think that is the case and I don't think that can be supported well.

And it hasn't.


As for Duncan vs Kobe all time? I think Duncan deserves to be on another tier of player in the all time rankings. I don't want to get into a debate largely based on semantics. It's enough for me that Kobe fans think Duncan was better like you do. How much better? I don't really care to argue about it.

[brownmamba00]

Kobe - 30/6/6 57% TS 25.8 PER .214 WS/48 116 ortg 106 drtg

Duncan 22/12/3 56% TS 27.4 PER .214 WS/48 111 ortg 98 drtg

Look pretty comparable to me.

But by all means...support your claim that Kobe was way better and it's "bananas" to compare their impact.
what exactly is WS?

per ts otrg ws:lol

are we still talking basketball?

[24-Inch_Chrome]

This "debate" feels absurd, so I'm not gonna even entertain it anymore. Later dude.

You're right, Kobe doesn't come close to Duncan. Kobe is the more popular player but he's more style than substance; Duncan is the reverse.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I agree about that. I mean...they are both "impressive", but they aren't shifting career legacies or something.

How was Kobe better though? I mean...he might have been better, but your argument is that it's crazy to compare them. Which you can't support at all....you certainly can't support it in the regular season. Lets try the playoffs.

I'll do both years for Kobe.

Kobe - 30/6/6 57% TS 25.8 PER .214 WS/48 116 ortg 106 drtg

Duncan 22/12/3 56% TS 27.4 PER .214 WS/48 111 ortg 98 drtg

Look pretty comparable to me.

But by all means...support your claim that Kobe was way better and it's "bananas" to compare their impact.

8 more points per game, double the amount of assist, more efficient

"looks pretty comparable to me"

:oldlol: :oldlol:

and holy shit stop using ortg and drtg for individuals

[DMAVS41]

8 more points per game, double the amount of assist, more efficient

"looks pretty comparable to me"

:oldlol: :oldlol:

and holy shit stop using ortg and drtg for individuals

And Duncan had double the rebounds.

If you add up rebounds and assists...Duncan had more you clown.

And Duncan was a far superior defender...he was anchoring the best or 2nd best defense in the league as usual.

No, I'm not going to stop using it as it's perfectly fine to gauge ortg and drtg on and individual level.

I'm sorry you don't like it, but all stats are in some connected to teammates and role. Can't get outside of that.

Using all the data...it together paints a picture of what actually happened. The more the better.

Please though...offer something that shows Kobe as the clear better player the years in question. Please...

And they are very similar. Once again...Duncan was an all time great defensive force...and he was damn near his best on that end in 07. The other metrics pick this up.

Sorry if you don't like it.

[DMAVS41]

what exactly is WS?

per ts otrg ws:lol

are we still talking basketball?

So you'd rather me just say this:

Duncan was really good offensively, on the glass, and was an all time elite defensive force...and I think that his overall impact was as good as Kobe's in 09/10.

Fine by me.

[brownmamba00]

what's the deal about '07 Duncan...you peeps really think he was that much better than Kobe in '00?

in his own words;

''There, the Spurs swept the Cavaliers 4

[TheMarkMadsen]

And Duncan had double the rebounds.

If you add up rebounds and assists...Duncan had more you clown.

And Duncan was a far superior defender...he was anchoring the best or 2nd best defense in the league as usual.

No, I'm not going to stop using it as it's perfectly fine to gauge ortg and drtg on and individual level.

I'm sorry you don't like it, but all stats are in some connected to teammates and role. Can't get outside of that.

Using all the data...it together paints a picture of what actually happened. The more the better.

Please though...offer something that shows Kobe as the clear better player the years in question. Please...

And they are very similar. Once again...Duncan was an all time great defensive force...and he was damn near his best on that end in 07. The other metrics pick this up.

Sorry if you don't like it.

the creator of the stat would actually said the exact opposite but ok..

[TheMarkMadsen]

[QUOTE=brownmamba00]what's the deal about '07 Duncan...you peeps really think he was that much better than Kobe in '00?

in his own words;

''There, the Spurs swept the Cavaliers 4

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=brownmamba00]what's the deal about '07 Duncan...you peeps really think he was that much better than Kobe in '00?

in his own words;

''There, the Spurs swept the Cavaliers 4

[TheMarkMadsen]

drgt is such a great stat to use for individuals

/sarcasm

Scottie Pippen career drgt: 102

Gary Payton career drgt: 106

Dirk's career drgt: 104


Dirk>Payton defensively and on par with Pippen..

great stat

:roll: :roll:

[DMAVS41]

the creator of the stat would actually said the exact opposite but ok..

And why shouldn't we use it. Just because it's impacted by role and teammates doesn't mean it's not valid.

It all paints a picture.

I ask again...please post some positive evidence for Kobe being clearly better than Duncan here.

It's your claim...

[Prometheus]

Kobe's resume? I see exactly ONE MVP.
I see three rings in which he was not even considered the best player on his own team.
I see him butchering two more Finals ('04 and '08.)
In fact, he quite possibly was the WORST Finals performer of all of those players that are consider GOAT candidates.

He has a strong case for a Top-10 ranking. But nothing more than #8.

:lebronamazed:

[DMAVS41]

drgt is such a great stat to use for individuals

/sarcasm

Scottie Pippen career drgt: 102

Gary Payton career drgt: 106

Dirk's career drgt: 104


Dirk>Payton defensively and on par with Pippen..

great stat

:roll: :roll:


points per game is such a great stat.

Iverson, Durant, Pettit, Gervin >>>>>> Kobe

Please. Please present the positive evidence for Kobe being clearly better than 07 Duncan.

[DMAVS41]

he thinks 07 Duncan > 09 Kobe

he's a lunatic


I really hope, for your sake, that you are trolling.

If you really think one has to be a lunatic for taking the league leader in RAPM and an all time dominant defensive force over Kobe....you are even more lost than I thought.

[Anaximandro1]

not all rings are created equal


the most selfish player is also the player who completely depends on his teammates to win titles. Sad but true.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SQe6Af7D0Ao/VU3ld8HSTXI/AAAAAAAAEXY/78t8f1Uvxu0/s1600/a.jpg

[DMAVS41]

not all rings are created equal


the most selfish player is also the player who completely depends on his teammates to win titles. Sad but true.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SQe6Af7D0Ao/VU3ld8HSTXI/AAAAAAAAEXY/78t8f1Uvxu0/s1600/a.jpg


That doesn't count for some absurd reason. Don't you get it? You are a lunatic if you don't agree that Kobe was better than them all!

[TheMarkMadsen]

points per game is such a great stat.

Iverson, Durant, Pettit, Gervin >>>>>> Kobe

Durant and Iverson are two of the GOAT scorers.. :confusedshrug:

they belong in the discussion with Kobe scoring wise.. they are actually comparable as scorers..


however, Dirk isn't even in the same universe defensively as Payton and Pippen



:oldlol:

[KiiiiNG]

not all rings are created equal


the most selfish player is also the player who completely depends on his teammates to win titles. Sad but true.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SQe6Af7D0Ao/VU3ld8HSTXI/AAAAAAAAEXY/78t8f1Uvxu0/s1600/a.jpg
damn.

[Rocketswin2013]

not all rings are created equal


the most selfish player is also the player who completely depends on his teammates to win titles. Sad but true.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SQe6Af7D0Ao/VU3ld8HSTXI/AAAAAAAAEXY/78t8f1Uvxu0/s1600/a.jpg
/thread

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Duncan. :applause:

Lock at the 5 spot on my all-time list.

[SugarHill]

not all rings are created equal


the most selfish player is also the player who completely depends on his teammates to win titles. Sad but true.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SQe6Af7D0Ao/VU3ld8HSTXI/AAAAAAAAEXY/78t8f1Uvxu0/s1600/a.jpg
the guy who lead the league in WS this year is the same dude who was on the bench for the entire 4th quarter at which point his team rallied back and won the game. A game that could have decided everything. PER is very misleading.

[DMAVS41]

Durant and Iverson are two of the GOAT scorers.. :confusedshrug:

they belong in the discussion with Kobe scoring wise.. they are actually comparable as scorers..


however, Dirk isn't even in the same universe defensively as Payton and Pippen



:oldlol:

the point is that you can't use just one number you moron. it all paints a picture. using solely one thing isn't what it's good for.

you aren't even getting my point.

where is your evidence???????

Duncan bests Kobe on BPM the years in question as well.

How many different metrics do you need?

If he was so much better....why doesn't it show up anywhere??????

So we can't use RAPM, can't use ortg or drtg, can't use the fact that Duncan was better on the boards and on defense. Can't use Duncan leading his team to an elite defense as usual. Can't use Duncan is a better teammate and doesn't dominate the ball and allows his teammates to player closer to their optimal level while still making an all time impact.

What can we use? How do you want to argue this? By just going back and forth saying...No?

[TheMarkMadsen]

the guy who lead the league in WS this year is the same dude who was on the bench for the entire 4th quarter at which point his team rallied back and won the game. A game that could have decided everything. PER is very misleading.

not only that but Lebron was like 4th or 5th on his team is WS before the last game against ATL..

somebody even made a thread about it, freaking TT has a higher WS..

Lebron was clearly the best player, yet if you had just looked at WS and other advanced stats he was like 5th best on his team which is just dumb

[Rocketswin2013]

the point is that you can't use just one number you moron. it all paints a picture. using solely one thing isn't what it's good for.

you aren't even getting my point.

where is your evidence???????

Duncan bests Kobe on BPM the years in question as well.

How many different metrics do you need?

If he was so much better....why doesn't it show up anywhere??????

So we can't use RAPM, can't use ortg or drtg, can't use the fact that Duncan was better on the boards and on defense. Can't use Duncan leading his team to an elite defense as usual. Can't use Duncan is a better teammate and doesn't dominate the ball and allows his teammates to player closer to their optimal level while still making an all time impact.

What can we use? How do you want to argue this? By just going back and forth saying...No?
All-defensive selections.

[KiiiiNG]

the point is that you can't use just one number you moron. it all paints a picture. using solely one thing isn't what it's good for.

you aren't even getting my point.

where is your evidence???????

Duncan bests Kobe on BPM the years in question as well.

How many different metrics do you need?

If he was so much better....why doesn't it show up anywhere??????

So we can't use RAPM, can't use ortg or drtg, can't use the fact that Duncan was better on the boards and on defense. Can't use Duncan is a better teammate and doesn't dominate the ball.

What can we use? How do you want to argue this? By just going back and forth saying...No?
kobe is better because he beats his chest and growls.

all about theatrics in LA... duncan couldn't possibly be better than kobe.

more consistent. more efficient. better teammate. better defender. bigger dick. you name it, duncan is better.

[DMAVS41]

not only that but Lebron was like 4th or 5th on his team is WS before the last game against ATL..

somebody even made a thread about it, freaking TT has a higher WS..

Lebron was clearly the best player, yet if you had just looked at WS and other advanced stats he was like 5th best on his team which is just dumb

That was ws/48 I believe.

Which would make sense...as Lebron wasn't playing all that great and was using up a ton of possessions and not scoring very efficiently.

Just more reason to look at the entire picture and use common sense.

[DMAVS41]

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
All-defensive selections.

[TheMarkMadsen]

the point is that you can't use just one number you moron. it all paints a picture. using solely one thing isn't what it's good for.

you aren't even getting my point.

where is your evidence???????

Duncan bests Kobe on BPM the years in question as well.

How many different metrics do you need?

If he was so much better....why doesn't it show up anywhere??????

So we can't use RAPM, can't use ortg or drtg, can't use the fact that Duncan was better on the boards and on defense. Can't use Duncan is a better teammate and doesn't dominate the ball.

What can we use? How do you want to argue this? By just going back and forth saying...No?

then why is that one of the few select stats you decide to use when making these comparisons :oldlol: :oldlol:

so stop using drgt and orgt.. it isn't meant for individual players

BPM, RAPM, VORP, BGLT what the **** are you even talking about

I'd say that averaging 32 ppg on 53% TS in the finals is better than Duncan's 18ppg on 48% TS in the finals

I'd say that averaging 30/6/6 on 57% TS is more impressive than 22/12/3 on 56% TS

Kobe was averaging 12 more ppg than his 2nd fiddle..

Duncan was averaging 1 more ppg than Parker..

Kobe absolutly dominated teams that year.. 34/6/6 on 63% TS in the WCF 32/6/7 in the finals.. Duncan never put together b2b dominant series in 07, he didn't even play well in the finals..

[Wade's Rings]

It's pretty simple Lebron's played his entire career in the East in which his teams can trot to the Finals every yea facing some weak competition. The disparity in strength in conference overshadows everything else. :confusedshrug:

That's debatable for certain years.

The East has strong Defensive Teams. From 2004-2006 they had 2 Contenders and 2009-2011 had 3-4 Contenders each year.

Plus outside of Portland/L.A in 2000 who else was a contender? Timmy D got hurt and missed the Playoffs. In 2009 the Lakers beat 2 Teams In the West With ample amounts of injuries. In 2010 they faced 2 50+ Win Teams in OKC & Utah but those squads weren't Contenders at that point.

[Rose'sACL]

That was ws/48 I believe.

Which would make sense...as Lebron wasn't playing all that great and was using up a ton of possessions and not scoring very efficiently.

Just more reason to look at the entire picture and use common sense.
WS/48 is a pretty bad way to compare players anyway. Why would you expect role players to play more mins?
Per 36 and per 48 stats are straight up garbage.

[SugarHill]

then why is that one of the few select stats you decide to use when making these comparisons :oldlol: :oldlol:

so stop using drgt and orgt.. it isn't meant for individual players

BPM, RAPM, VORP, BGLT what the **** are you even talking about

I'd say that averaging 32 ppg on 53% TS in the finals is better than Duncan's 18ppg on 48% TS in the finals

I'd say that averaging 30/6/6 on 57% TS is more impressive than 22/12/3 on 56% TS

Kobe was averaging 12 more ppg than his 2nd fiddle..

Duncan was averaging 1 more ppg than Parker..

Kobe absolutly dominated teams that year.. 34/6/6 on 63% TS in the WCF 32/6/7 in the finals.. Duncan never put together b2b dominant series in 07, he didn't even play well in the finals..
the almighty VORP :bowdown: :banana: :djparty

[Dro]

yaawwnnnn..........

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

the point is that you can't use just one number you moron. it all paints a picture. using solely one thing isn't what it's good for.

you aren't even getting my point.

where is your evidence???????

Duncan bests Kobe on BPM the years in question as well.

How many different metrics do you need?

If he was so much better....why doesn't it show up anywhere??????

So we can't use RAPM, can't use ortg or drtg, can't use the fact that Duncan was better on the boards and on defense. Can't use Duncan leading his team to an elite defense as usual. Can't use Duncan is a better teammate and doesn't dominate the ball and allows his teammates to player closer to their optimal level while still making an all time impact.

What can we use? How do you want to argue this? By just going back and forth saying...No?

BPM, ORTG, DRTG, and winshares do not adjust for teammates or lienups.

RAPM would be the only legit, advance stat for individuals (as it adjusts for all those things), but even then, its incredibly deceptive.

The leaders in RAPM this year fluctuated between Curry/Harden/LeBron; there was nobody clear cut, as it changes drastically game-by-game.

[TheMarkMadsen]

That was ws/48 I believe.

Which would make sense...as Lebron wasn't playing all that great and was using up a ton of possessions and not scoring very efficiently.

Just more reason to look at the entire picture and use common sense.

from the thread i'm referencing


WS

Kyrie 1.6
Tristan 1.3
Shump/Lebron 1.2

OWS

Kyrie 1.2
Tristan 1.0
Shump .8
Smith/Lebron .4

[Rose'sACL]

BPM, ORTG, DRTG, and winshares do not adjust for teammates or lienups.

RAPM would be the only legit advance stat for individuals, but even then, its incredibly deceptive. The leaders in RAPM this year fluctuated between Curry/Harden/LeBron - there was nobody clear cut, and was changing in a game-by-game basis.
Then tell that guy to use win shares and not win shares per 48.

[Kvnzhangyay]

He's already quite ahead of Kobe now

If Lebron adds another good finals performance it would only increase the gap.

Pretty much the only people that use rings as how they rank people are 15 year old kids that are blinded by the media nowadays

Rings + high level of play > No rings + high level of play > rings + high level of play

[TheMarkMadsen]

Then tell that guy to use win shares and not win shares per 48.

according to WS

TT > Lebron through the Celtics/Bulls series

[DMAVS41]

WS/48 is a pretty bad way to compare players anyway. Why would you expect role players to play more mins?
Per 36 and per 48 stats are straight up garbage.

This is the common sense and context I'm talking about. You have to, with all stats, compare like with like as best as possible.

Yes, comparing Lebron to Shumper on ws/48 makes no sense.

However, comparing Lebron to James Harden or another 1 superstar led team makes much more sense.

Is it perfect? Of course not.

Which is why it's best to look at everything when evaluating players. All the stats, advanced stats, eye test, level of play in certain moments, team success, supporting cast help, coaching...etc.

Stats really shouldn't be used as anything more than guide posts. It's kind of like science. Science can't really prove something is true, but it can prove something is not true.

Same kind of applies to stats. Someone claims Kobe was so much better than Duncan was in 07 and it's "crazy" to even debate...if that were not false...we would find ample evidence to at least support that claim.

As we've seen...there is virtually no evidence of this...therefore that claim should be considered not true...or at the least...not supported.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Then tell that guy to use win shares and not win shares per 48.

Winshares and winshares per48 are measured the same way, just with a minutes difference.

Neither adjust for teammates, quality of opponent, or lineups like RAPM does.

[DMAVS41]

BPM, ORTG, DRTG, and winshares do not adjust for teammates or lienups.

RAPM would be the only legit, advance stat for individuals (as it adjusts for all those things), but even then, its incredibly deceptive.

The leaders in RAPM this year fluctuated between Curry/Harden/LeBron; there was nobody clear cut, as it changes drastically game-by-game.

And in 07...as I already posted...Duncan led the league in RAPM

Kobe was 6th in 09 and 5th in 10.


I know that stuff doesn't adjust...I've stated as such in this thread. I do think it should all still be included though...as usually you simply will not see a clearly worse player have a better stats picture all things taken into account.

That is why I like to include everything.

[Rose'sACL]

Winshares and winshares per 48 are measured the same way, just with minutes different. Neither adjust for teammates, quality of opponent, or lineups like RAPM does.
So tell me why one should use ws per 48 instead of just ws?
Do you do the same for ppg,APG and RPG when comparing players?

[DMAVS41]

from the thread i'm referencing

Not sure when that was, but it makes sense.

We aren't comparing like with like...and Lebron was really shitty in the playoffs at times.

Like...I don't think you guys are understanding just how shitty Lebron was until the last 5 games.

Makes perfect sense imo here.

Not comparing players playing a similar role at all...and said player was playing like ass.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So tell me why one should use ws per 48 instead of just ws?
I couldn't tell you.

Personally, I don't use either... and don't recommend doing so.

[DMAVS41]

Winshares and winshares per48 are measured the same way, just with a minutes difference.

Neither adjust for teammates, quality of opponent, or lineups like RAPM does.

But that difference is huge...it's like PER.

Wright always has a great PER, but he could never do that for 37 minutes a game consistently.

Just like ws/48....it's stupid to compare players playing hugely different roles with much less or more time on the court.

Thought this shit was obvious.

That doesn't invalidate the stat though...it's just another metric that measures things. And when you take everything into account...you'll begin to see if a claim make sense.

The claim here, that 09/10 Kobe was so much better than 07 Duncan that it's "crazy" and "absurd" and "bananas" to debate them is a claim that is not making sense based on anything.

Virtually nothing has been given to support it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

But that difference is huge...it's like PER.

Wright always has a great PER, but he could never do that for 37 minutes a game consistently.

Just like ws/48....it's stupid to compare players playing hugely different roles with much less or more time on the court.

Thought this shit was obvious.

Yeah true.

I use PER to measure overall officiency (all-around play) and occasionally RAPM.

I prefer raw stats over the other advanced metrics, because they don't attempt to show how much/little success players credit their teams (this..without adjusting for anything)

[DMAVS41]

Yeah true.

I use PER to measure overall officiency (all-around play) and occasionally RAPM.

I prefer raw stats over the other advanced metrics, because they don't attempt to show how much/little success players credit their teams (this..without adjusting for anything)

The problem with that is I think it's still a bit limited. As quantifying defensive impact can be a bit tough.

I completely agree with your overall take and by no means think some of these metrics individually mean much...

I do, however, thing a complete look at all raw stats, advanced metrics, and RAPM paints a pretty decent picture...or at least one that help evaluate bold claims.