Here's the problem for all-time greats that lose a lot in the Finals

[3ball]

Assuming your team has enough talent, losing a lot in the Finals means your style of play is not conducive for optimal team play, or basketball played at it's highest level.

After all, it's the OTHER team that has the better style of play, and is playing basketball at it's highest level.

Therefore your team's style ISN'T optimal or at the highest level - it's 2nd best, and 2nd place is the first loser.. Indeed, barring material talent gap in the two teams, an all-time great that loses a lot in the Finals employs a loser style.

:dancin

[Giaodollo]

Just like first round exit or missing playoffs is 16th best. And you know what they say, 16th best is 15th loser.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

I'm a fan of your posts 3ball. Keep it up! :applause:

[Rose'sACL]

2011 was the only time lebron had the better team and lost.
This thread should end here.

[DMAVS41]

Assuming your team has enough talent, losing a lot in the Finals means your style of play is not conducive for optimal team play, or basketball played at it's highest level.

After all, it's the OTHER team that has the better style of play, and is playing basketball at it's highest level.

Therefore your team's style ISN'T optimal or at the highest level - it's 2nd best, and 2nd place is the first loser.. Indeed, barring material talent gap in the two teams, an all-time great that loses a lot in the Finals employs a loser style.

:dancin

This could be true, but it isn't relevant to Lebron unless you are solely talking about 2011.

The 07 Cavs, 15 Cavs, and 14 Heat rate as very poor supporting casts...and rightfully so. They were far worse than the average supporting cast on teams that make the finals.

So the whole "optimal" argument doesn't apply when the players around Lebron can't do much.

[Eric Cartman]

3ball with the cheap shot on Lazeruss :applause:

Great debate between u 2 in that other thread, for sure will continue here.

[TheMarkMadsen]

so true

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[NBAplayoffs2001]

3ball with the cheap shot on Lazeruss :applause:

Great debated between u 2 in that other thread, for sure will continue here.

Could end up being legitimately 1000 pages long :lol

[Kvnzhangyay]

Assuming your team has enough talent, losing a lot in the Finals means your style of play is not conducive for optimal team play, or basketball played at it's highest level.

After all, it's the OTHER team that has the better style of play, and is playing basketball at it's highest level.

Therefore your team's style ISN'T optimal or at the highest level - it's 2nd best, and 2nd place is the first loser.. Indeed, barring material talent gap in the two teams, an all-time great that loses a lot in the Finals employs a loser style.

:dancin

No, it's because of the Leastern conference. Teams that shouldn't even be in the finals are playing in the finals, so its only natural they are expected to lose

[Geh]

Hey 3Ball I'd like to have a serious discussion with you on Michael Jordan, care to start up another thread?

[Sarcastic]

2011 was the only time lebron had the better team and lost.
This thread should end here.

He should have won in 2014. He was the two time defending champion, and beat the Spurs the year before.

[Springsteen]

Assuming your team has enough talent, losing a lot in the Finals means your style of play is not conducive for optimal team play, or basketball played at it's highest level.


http://cdn.sportsoverdose.com/thumbs/matthew-dellavedova-8-nba-20140719022558.jpg

[scm5]

This is the thing. Lebron's teams have been the best teams in the East for a while now, so they've made so many consecutive Finals trips.

However, we all know how good the West has been compared to the East, and my argument is that if there was a "Best 16" format, instead of by conference, Lebron's teams might not have even made it to the Finals.

This explains his losing record in overall wins and series wins in the Finals.

TL;DR: His teams were good enough to get to the Finals in the East, but maybe not the West.

[Rose'sACL]

If lebron played in the west he would have not made 5 consecutive finals but he would have made 5 finals overall given that other than wolves and kings all west teams have put good to great teams around their star. Lebron only got that for 3 years in Miami.
So he would have made 5 finals on most west teams while winning 3 of them at least.those cavs years were brutal and now this injury curse on lebron teams since 2014.

[Rose'sACL]

He should have won in 2014. He was the two time defending champion, and beat the Spurs the year before.
Ya. By this logic spurs should have won this year and keep winning till the end of time.

[LAZERUSS]

Assuming your team has enough talent, losing a lot in the Finals means your style of play is not conducive for optimal team play, or basketball played at it's highest level.

After all, it's the OTHER team that has the better style of play, and is playing basketball at it's highest level.

Therefore your team's style ISN'T optimal or at the highest level - it's 2nd best, and 2nd place is the first loser.. Indeed, barring material talent gap in the two teams, an all-time great that loses a lot in the Finals employs a loser style.

:dancin

Yep...just like the '64 Finals, right? When Russell's Celtics had an EIGHT-TO-THREE HOF margin over Wilt's Warriors. On top of that, Wilt's two HOF teammates (one of whom was a rookie, playing part-time, and out of position) shot .326 and .258 from the field respectively.

Sorry to tell you this...but swap rosters in '64, and Russell's team wouldn't have even made the playoffs, much less win in the Finals.

Of course, as none other than John Wooden said, swap Russell's and Wilt's rosters, and coaches, in their 10 years in the league together, and it would have been WILT holding all those rings.

MJ without Pippen....never won a playoff series.

Next bit of nonsense....

[LAZERUSS]

Kareem lost in '74, '83, '84, '88, and '89.

Loser.

[Jameerthefear]

Hey old man? How's it going? Had your medicine recently?

[hawke812]

Hey old man? How's it going? Had your medicine recently?

It's like I'm watching an argument on TV in black and white:roll:

[Mr. Jabbar]

every time 3ball posts lebron gets balder in my mind

[ralph_i_el]

I hope you understand why you're wrong and are just trolling. Otherwise you're an absolute idiot.

[LAZERUSS]

Of course a fully refreshed MJ basically replaced Grant on a team that the year before, and withOUT him, went 55-27, and lost a very close and controversial seven game series to a 56-26 Knicks team....that would go on to lose a very close game seven in the Finals, to a 58-24 Rockets team. How did that work out? They were beaten 4-2 by a Magic team in the ECSF's, that would get swept by that same Rockets team in the Finals.

I guess the only conclusion that we can draw from that...Grant > Jordan. Hell, Grant was on the team that beat MJ's in that ECSF series.

More than enough talent to GET to the Finals, but failed miserably.

[Jameerthefear]

Old man Rivers SHITTING on a prime 3ball!

[SamuraiSWISH]

Assuming your team has enough talent, losing a lot in the Finals means your style of play is not conducive for optimal team play, or basketball played at it's highest level.
Yes.

This year being an exception considering LeBron's next two best players have both been out. Kyrie pretty much absent in the Conference Finals, and now Finals. Love out since the 2nd round.

Getting to the Finals means in most instances you had the tools, and talent to win it all in a seven games series ... and through your own play, or leadership, you failed.

So you're right, that is why Finals win % does matter among the comparison between basketball legends.

[nzahir]

2011 was the only time lebron had the better team and lost.
This thread should end here.
This, as a fan of lebron I can accept he obviously wasnt doing what he was capable of doing. 18 8 and 8 isnt terrible but for him it, especially then. Not aggressive enough; the zone defense was his weakness. He didnt have the jumper then or the post game. He may not be as great as Mj when its said and done but he can end top 2-5 if he wins a couple more and keep putting up these amazing numbers

[LAZERUSS]

Yes.

This year being an exception considering LeBron's next two best players have both been out. Kyrie pretty much absent in the Conference Finals, and now Finals. Love out since the 2nd round.

Getting to the Finals means in most instances you had the tools, and talent to win it all in a seven games series ... and through your own play, or leadership, you failed.

So you're right, that is why Finals win % does matter among the comparison between basketball legends.

So Lebron's Cavs should have beaten the Spurs in '07?

Gotcha.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Yes.

This year being an exception considering LeBron's next two best players have both been out. Kyrie pretty much absent in the Conference Finals, and now Finals. Love out since the 2nd round.

Getting to the Finals means in most instances you had the tools, and talent to win it all in a seven games series ... and through your own play, or leadership, you failed.

So you're right, that is why Finals win % does matter among the comparison between basketball legends.
What do you think about 07 though? That was one of the worst finals supporting casts of all time against the Spurs.

I think 2011 is the only year I really count against LeBron. 2014 a little bit, but it was his teammates that didn't bring anything to the table.

[LAZERUSS]

What do you think about 07 though? That was one of the worst finals supporting casts of all time against the Spurs.

I think 2011 is the only year I really count against LeBron. 2014 a little bit, but it was his teammates that didn't bring anything to the table.

THIS.

And I tell you what... '11...I really think Lebron didn't want to step on Wade's toes. After that he assumed full command, and the rest is history. And you are right about '15. Lebron was great, but his supporting cast, no matter how talented, were slaughtered by the Spurs.

[nzahir]

What do you think about 07 though? That was one of the worst finals supporting casts of all time against the Spurs.

I think 2011 is the only year I really count against LeBron. 2014 a little bit, but it was his teammates that didn't bring anything to the table.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/where-this-years-cavs-rank-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/
2011 is it; stats are a bit weird b/c i wouldnt consider 2011 his best supporting cast at all; i would consider 2012-2013 the best ones.
Jesus MJ had some great support those last few years

[J Shuttlesworth]

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/where-this-years-cavs-rank-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/
2011 is it; stats are a bit weird b/c i wouldnt consider 2011 his best supporting cast at all; i would consider 2012-2013 the best ones.
Jesus MJ had some great support those last few years
I'd be curious if 2015 Cleveland would be technically under the 2007 Cavs now that Irving is out.

[SamuraiSWISH]

So Lebron's Cavs should have beaten the Spurs in '07?

Gotcha.
Wait aren't you the one who critiques young Jordan, sans any quality help, for going "1-9" against the Bucks as a rookie, and against all time great Bird led Celtics teams in '86 / '87? Hypocrite much?

Anyway ...

No. I am saying the roster isn't an excuse in most cases, unless there is some major injury to significant roster pieces. If your team is good enough to get to the Finals, generally, talent disparity isn't an issue.

2007 Cavaliers, outside of LeBron, Boobie Gibson's blistering shooting in particular played a key role in even getting them to the Finals. People always forget that. They weren't terrible.

LeBron also played really poorly himself in the 2007 Finals that didn't help matters. Like Rose v.s. Miami 2011 bad. Same age too. Like Kobe v.s. Detroit 2004 bad. Like Dirk v.s. GSW 2007 bad.

I give LeBron a pass for 2007 due to his age more than anything. They shouldn't have even been there.

The 2014 Heat however weren't that significantly out gunned that it couldn't have been a more competitive series. They were basically the exact same rosters and health situations from the year prior.

The Heat team collectively played poor defense. Had poor schemes offensively, poorly coached and refused to adapt to their opponent, yes.

LeBron also was passive for major stretches in the series. He didn't do all that was possible to win, or at least be competitive. So he shoulders some blame. He didn't have god like series, or averages to justify saying it was all his teammates faults.

Even when he was feeling it. He visibly gave up at times. He just had some amazing stetches that covered up for it unlike say the 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals.

[J Shuttlesworth]

No. I am saying the roster isn't an excuse in most cases, unless there is some major injury to significant roster pieces. If your team is good enough to get to the Finals, generally, talent disparity isn't an issue.


See now this is where I have a problem with some of the ISH contradictions.

People write off LeBron getting that team to the finals because the East was "historically weak"... So him getting through some historically weak teams to make the finals is supposed to mean that his team was good enough to compete with Duncan and the Spurs? It can't be both ways... If the East is weak, then making it to the finals in the East doesn't necessarily mean that your team is good enough to compete with the West. There is a massive gap in logic/contradiction here. I'm not even saying you directly, Swish, but ISH in general.

[Poetry]

MJ without Pippen....never won a playoff series.

How many did LeBron win back then without his all-star center Big Z?

[J Shuttlesworth]

How many did LeBron win back then without his all-star center Big Z?
Considering Big Z was only an all star in 03/05, quite a bit.

[Poetry]

Considering Big Z was only an all star in 03/05, quite a bit.

But how many did he win without Big Z prior to going to Miami?

[LAZERUSS]

See now this is where I have a problem with some of the ISH contradictions.

People write off LeBron getting that team to the finals because the East was "historically weak"... So him getting through some historically weak teams to make the finals is supposed to mean that his team was good enough to compete with Duncan and the Spurs? It can't be both ways... If the East is weak, then making it to the finals in the East doesn't necessarily mean that your team is good enough to compete with the West. There is a massive gap in logic/contradiction here. I'm not even saying you directly, Swish, but ISH in general.

You, my friend, are too smart for this forum.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[J Shuttlesworth]

But how many did he win without Big Z prior to going to Miami?
You said "All star Big Z"

Why change your tune?

[Poetry]

You said "All star Big Z"

Why change your tune?

Real simple question.

How many playoff series did LeBron win without Big Z before leaving to Miami?

[LAZERUSS]

Real simple question.

How many playoff series did LeBron win without Big Z before leaving to Miami?


How many playoff series did "Big Z" play in in his six seasons before Lebron arrived (I'll give you a hint...ONE...and it was in his rookie year.) There was a long drought before he would be in another one.

[SamuraiSWISH]

See now this is where I have a problem with some of the ISH contradictions.

People write off LeBron getting that team to the finals because the East was "historically weak"... So him getting through some historically weak teams to make the finals is supposed to mean that his team was good enough to compete with Duncan and the Spurs?
That's one of the major knocks on LeBron's cowardly move to go to Miami.

Not only was the roster he chose to stack the deck with a significant talent disparity from the rest of an extremely weak conference. It also more than matched up with whoever would've came out the West ... which would also be a team that didn't have cake walks to the Finals like the Heat (2011 East being a HUGE exception)

Hell, even the Cavs, especially post JR Smith / Shumpert / Mozgov trade were not only more talented than anyone else in their conference ... they matched up talent wise with whoever would come out the stacked Western Conference.

Come on, you're smart. Stop doing the mental gymnastics to defend LeBron. You understand what I'm saying.


There is a massive gap in logic/contradiction here. I'm not even saying you directly, Swish, but ISH in general.
I sure hope not, because I just explained why LeBron had a stacked roster capable of competing with the best of the west, and why it made the talent disparity even bigger within their own weak conference.

Thus getting to the Finals, and losing, apart from an injury that keeps a major piece off the floor completely ... the roster isn't an excuse for losing.

[Poetry]

How many playoff series did "Big Z" play in in his six seasons before Lebron arrived (I'll give you a hint...ONE...and it was in his rookie year.) There was a long drought before he would be in another one.

So LeBron played with an allstar quality center who had made the playoffs without him before. Interesting.

But how many playoff series did LeBron win without him before he teamed up with Wade and Bosh? Anyone?

[J Shuttlesworth]

Real simple question.

How many playoff series did LeBron win without Big Z before leaving to Miami?
Are you really trying to compare having a guy like Pippen on your team to having Big Z? :biggums:

[Poetry]

Are you really trying to compare having a guy like Pippen on your team to having Big Z? :biggums:

I'm asking a simple question that you seem terrified to answer.

[LAZERUSS]

Wait aren't you the one who critiques young Jordan, sans any quality help, for going "1-9" against the Bucks as a rookie, and against all time great Bird led Celtics teams in '86 / '87? Hypocrite much?



Look, I certainly don't blame MJ for going 1-9 in those years. But then, how can anyone blame Wilt for going 1-7 against the greatest dynasty in NBA history...and then in a season in which missed nearly the year, his 46-36 Lakers lost a seven game series against a 60-22 Knicks with four HOFers. The next year, his 48-34 Lakers lose to a 66-16 Bucks team, in a series in which Wilt doesn't have West and Baylor. In his last season, with an injured roster, his Lakers lose four games...all decided in the final minute to a 57-25 Knicks team that fielded six HOFers.

It's not just about surrounding talent...it is also about how that talent performs in the post-season...AND, the surrounding talent of the OPPOSING teams.

[Poetry]

Why is everyone scared to answer my question? :rolleyes:

[J Shuttlesworth]

Come on, you're smart. Stop doing the mental gymnastics to defend LeBron. You understand what I'm saying.

I wasn't even really criticizing you. You gave LeBron the pass for 2007 becuase of age, but I think his cast wasn't nearly good enough to compete with the Spurs, and the support cast data supports that the 07 Cavs were the 2nd worst help a player has had in the finals all time.

But yeah obviously the Heat were good enough to battle the best in the West, which is why I knock him for 2011. But what do you expect him to do? Get a team that can compete with the East, but not with the West? If your goal is to win a chip, you have to have a team good enough to compete with the West, not just make the finals.

I was mostly criticizing the ISH notion that the East is "historically weak" yet making it out of the conference means your team is good enough to compete with the best in the West. Those two statements are contradictory. If he had Love/Kyrie, he wouldn't be getting a pass, and the Cavs would probably be up 1-0 right now to be honest. But since he doesn't have them, he obviously gets a pass for this year.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Why is everyone scared to answer my question? :rolleyes:
He never played in a series without Big Z before the Heat, unless you count 2010 when he only played a few minutes each game. It's a stupid question, like asking "How many NBA playoff games did LeBron win before he made the playoffs?"

The question has no merit and no relevancy to what we're discussing here. You're clinging to a question that has no merit for your argument, and acting like it's the end game.

[LAZERUSS]

So LeBron played with an allstar quality center who had made the playoffs without him before. Interesting.

But how many playoff series did LeBron win without him before he teamed up with Wade and Bosh? Anyone?

Yep...without Lebron, Big Z led his rookie team to a 47-35 record..then 22-28, then 32-50, then 30-52, then 29-53, then 17-65, then Lebron arrived. And the rest, shall we say, is history.

[SamuraiSWISH]

But yeah obviously the Heat were good enough to battle the best in the West, which is why I knock him for 2011.
Knock him? You should lament him for his 2011. It was pathetic. It was embarrassing.

And you should knock him a bit for 2014. It wasn't like he had some god like MJ / West / Shaq type Finals, or even a LeBron 2009 ECF esque performance while his teammates crumbled around him.

Why does he get such a pass from LeBron stans for 2014?


I was mostly criticizing the ISH notion that the East is "historically weak" yet making it out of the conference means your team is good enough to compete with the best in the West.
Are you referring to the Cavs? Because the East is both historically weak, and the Cavs pre Kyrie knee cap were more than good enough to compete with the best of the West?

:biggums:

[Geh]

3Ball and SamuraiSWISH,

Do you both realize Jordan would not have won a single NBA title without Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Paxson, Kerr?

You talk shit that LeBron wasn't able to clutch Game 1 with a shot at the buzzer...well... why couldn't Jordan will his team past the Pistons and Celtics until 1991? In '87, Jordan scored 63 points in one game, yet the Bulls still got swept. In fact his Bulls didn't beat the Pistons until after the Pistons eliminated them in 3 straight years!

[sportjames23]

3Ball and SamuraiSWISH,

Do you both realize Jordan would not have won a single NBA title without Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Paxson, Kerr?

You talk shit that LeBron wasn't able to clutch Game 1 with a shot at the buzzer...well... why couldn't Jordan will his team past the Pistons and Celtics until 1991? In '87, Jordan scored 63 points in one game, yet the Bulls still got swept. In fact his Bulls didn't beat the Pistons until after the Pistons eliminated them in 3 straight years!


And here this dumbass goes. :rolleyes:

[LAZERUSS]

Why is everyone scared to answer my question? :rolleyes:

There is no such thing as stupid question...until you ask it.

[Jasper]

Assuming your team has enough talent, losing a lot in the Finals means your style of play is not conducive for optimal team play, or basketball played at it's highest level.

After all, it's the OTHER team that has the better style of play, and is playing basketball at it's highest level.

Therefore your team's style ISN'T optimal or at the highest level - it's 2nd best, and 2nd place is the first loser.. Indeed, barring material talent gap in the two teams, an all-time great that loses a lot in the Finals employs a loser style.

:dancin


I would never bet against the Denver Broncos in the regular season.
In the playoffs I would never bet a penny for them to win a game.
Peyton Manning doesn't have it / yet is a legit HOF'er.

:D

[Geh]

So 3ball and SWISH...anything?

[Relinquish]

I would never bet against the Denver Broncos in the regular season.
In the playoffs I would never bet a penny for them to win a game.
Peyton Manning doesn't have it / yet is a legit HOF'er.

:D

I mean, he still HAS won a super bowl.

At least that's still more than Brady aka 0* has (this is coming from a fan of neither).

[pauk]

Cool... so what is the problem for all-time greats that lose a lot before the Finals instead? (you can use Jordan as example, np).

[LikeABosh]

Cool... so what is the problem for all-time greats that lose a lot before the Finals instead? (you can use Jordan as example, np).
Didn't you hear. Losing in the Finals is worse than losing in the 1st round. Lebron haters on InsideHoops told me so.

[LA_Showtime]

Wait aren't you the one who critiques young Jordan, sans any quality help, for going "1-9" against the Bucks as a rookie, and against all time great Bird led Celtics teams in '86 / '87? Hypocrite much?

Anyway ...

No. I am saying the roster isn't an excuse in most cases, unless there is some major injury to significant roster pieces. If your team is good enough to get to the Finals, generally, talent disparity isn't an issue.

2007 Cavaliers, outside of LeBron, Boobie Gibson's blistering shooting in particular played a key role in even getting them to the Finals. People always forget that. They weren't terrible.

LeBron also played really poorly himself in the 2007 Finals that didn't help matters. Like Rose v.s. Miami 2011 bad. Same age too. Like Kobe v.s. Detroit 2004 bad. Like Dirk v.s. GSW 2007 bad.

I give LeBron a pass for 2007 due to his age more than anything. They shouldn't have even been there.

The 2014 Heat however weren't that significantly out gunned that it couldn't have been a more competitive series. They were basically the exact same rosters and health situations from the year prior.

The Heat team collectively played poor defense. Had poor schemes offensively, poorly coached and refused to adapt to their opponent, yes.

LeBron also was passive for major stretches in the series. He didn't do all that was possible to win, or at least be competitive. So he shoulders some blame. He didn't have god like series, or averages to justify saying it was all his teammates faults.

Even when he was feeling it. He visibly gave up at times. He just had some amazing stetches that covered up for it unlike say the 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals.

I don't understand. So in 2011, it was LeBron's fault for not helping out Wade. But in 2014, it was LeBron's fault and not Wade's for not doing more?

[pauk]

Didn't you hear. Losing in the Finals is worse than losing in the 1st round. Lebron haters on InsideHoops told me so.

I have yet to see a rational explanation for this though.... been asking for it everyday....

Infact, i have exposed how stupid this logic is many times... and they still continue and still ignore giving an explanation.... it will be interesting to see if 3ball can squeeze something out here, Jordan is 6/6 afterall....