could Jordan or Kobe win the title with this Cavs team?

[jzek]

We're all making fun of LeBron's inevitable 2/6 but it got me wondering - could Kobe or even the GOAT, Jordan, win with this depleted Cavs lineup against the Warriors?

[ArbitraryWater]

oh this got you wondering? seriously? how ****ing slow are you for this to now make you think.. were you really under any different impression before?

too many facepalms needed

[Harison]

We're all making fun of LeBron's inevitable 2/6 but it got me wondering - could Kobe or even the GOAT, Jordan, win with this depleted Cavs lineup against the Warriors?
Of course, game was very close but Lebron failed in the clutch. MJ is much better at it, and much better defender too, hence Cavs with MJ would have won GM1, and likely the series.

[triangleoffense]

MJ undoubtedly, he's had to carry the load during Pippen's headache and when Pippen was still getting his legs under him in 1991 as well as having a weak supporting cast vs the 91 Lakers and magic.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Well there is a good chance that Kobe or Jordan get a much better shot than LeBron did and seal game 1 which means Kyrie is still healthy with a series lead

Also, Warriors wouldn't dare leave prime Jordan or Kobe in isolation all game. That shit would get them burned.

[warriorfan]

oh this got you wondering? seriously? how ****ing slow are you for this to now make you think.. were you really under any different impression before?

too many facepalms needed

meltdown

[JtotheIzzo]

They'd likely be up one nothing right now with Jordan or Kobe as they would have closed or at worst made overtime their's.

They would have snatched home court and you know what they say about the team that wins game 1...

Cavs still have some decent parts. it isn't like LeBron is playing with nothing, he's got some real dogs over there, some real dark alley types (TT, JR, Shump, even Delly the injurer).

This isn't the first game LeBron has shrunk in the moment and what is worse, Cleveland should have won, not a great night from either Splash.

The way the media is bending over backwards to excuse LeBron for losing after game one is absolutely sickening and retired vets all over the map must be puking in their collective mouths or rolling over in their collective graves.

Soft emo BS media catering to soft emo superstars.

[Prometheus]

I don't know about Jordan, but Kobe would wreck the Warriors.

Remember what he used to do to prime Duncan? Kobe might lose one game to Curry, tops.

[sd3035]

oh this got you wondering? seriously? how ****ing slow are you for this to now make you think.. were you really under any different impression before?

too many facepalms needed

So, I guess that's a "yes"

[DMAVS41]

Kobe? Is this supposed to be serious?

A worse player than Lebron who had his success in the playoffs very closely tied to his help?

Dude hasn't won more than a couple playoff series in his career without top tier help. How the hell is he going to pull of the greatest upset in finals history?

MJ? They'd likely be up 1-0 right now, but the Warriors would still be favorites. Possible, but not likely.

[kennethgriffin]

kobe won a title with

gasol ( top 90 all time )
odom ( no allstar games ever )
fisher ( worst starting PG in the league )
bynum ( 6ppg, never played )
farmar
sasha
dj mbenga
morrison cheering in a suit


not exactly the most incredible supporting cast ever

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe? Is this supposed to be serious?

A worse player than Lebron who had his success in the playoffs very closely tied to his help?

Dude hasn't won more than a couple playoff series in his career without top tier help. How the hell is he going to pull of the greatest upset in finals history?

MJ? They'd likely be up 1-0 right now, but the Warriors would still be favorites. Possible, but not likely.

2009 was one of the lowest ranked 2nd options in championship history.

+ one of the lowest ranked 3rd options in championship history.

+ one of the lowest ranked PG's in championship history.

+ one of the absolute WORST benches of all time

[LeBird]

Neither of them would get to the finals, let alone win it.

[Kblaze8855]

The way the media is bending over backwards to excuse LeBron for losing after game one is absolutely sickening and retired vets all over the map must be puking in their collective mouths or rolling over in their collective graves.

I doubt it. How often is a retired players opinion of Lebron anything but glowing praise or downright awe? Its never been legends leading the Lebron hate. We got a few quotes on how they wouldnt team up...and go look at who said it...and their current opinions on Lebron. They are almost always the ones explaining why hes so amazing while fans pretend their opinions are invalid or a veiled shot at one of their peers.

Its just great after great gushing with praise. Rick Barry recently putting him over Bird, Doc, and himself as the greatest 3 ever. nate Thurmond talking about how much hje admires him and how hes the best ever at making teammates better. Laimbeer saying hed take him over Jordan. We all hear Barkley all the time. Its coaches..HOF college coaches...HOF NBA coahes....ex players...guys who gave more to the game and watched the greats up close more than we ever could. Its Magic...its Jerry West...its Bird. Oscar saying he was as good as Jordan. Kobe defending Lebron on Twitter recently. Pippen and Cartwright with their Lebron vs Jordan comments that got people angry.

Retired player and legends of the game have been going on and on about Lebron forever and it continues.

If they lose the legends will be among the most vocal defenders he has.

Its fans who hate on Lebron.

Basketball people dont seem to. You might get some shot taken now and then....but its clear where most of the greats stand.

They arent gonna bash Lebron over beating a 60+ win team without his 2 best players then failing to beat a 67 win team.

Most of them have been there before.

They dont do any dumb 2/6 talk.

Thats all fans. And many of the fans im convinced arent actually this stupid. Just jokes and trying to rile people up.

[DMAVS41]

2009 was one of the lowest ranked 2nd options in championship history.

+ one of the lowest ranked 3rd options in championship history.

+ one of the lowest ranked PG's in championship history.

+ one of the absolute WORST benches of all time

Actually it doesn't.

It was ranked as the 18th best supporting cast (out of 60) to make the finals in the last 30 years.

Factor in GOAT level coaching and the fact that Kobe had more help in the finals than Dwight based on the same study....and you absolutely do not get what you are talking about.

Sorry.

[JerrySeinfeld]

"If I want to win, I choose Kobe."

"If I want to have fun, I choose LeBron."

Real talk from Larry Legend.

[Megabox!]

"If I want to win, I choose Kobe."

"If I want to have fun, I choose LeBron."

Real talk from Larry Legend.
He said that shit like 4 years ago

[Quickening]

Kobe couldnt make the playoffs with a similar level of talent

[Kblaze8855]

"If I want to win, I choose Kobe."

"If I want to have fun, I choose LeBron."

Real talk from Larry Legend.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAEiIdQwX50

^

Same interview. He says Lebron was by far the best player in the league with nobody close. And before that....before Lebron had even won a title...:


[QUOTE]

[HOoopCityJones]

Kobe couldnt make the playoffs with a similar level of talent

You're right , he's made the playoffs in the tougher conference playing with worse players. :lol

[Magic 32]

A worse player than Lebron who had his success in the playoffs very closely tied to his help?


You could say that...

http://espn.go.com/photo/2006/0520/nba_g_thomas_395.jpg

It usually is in the west.

[HOoopCityJones]

You could say that...

http://espn.go.com/photo/2006/0520/nba_g_thomas_395.jpg

It usually is in the west.

Incoming deflection :rolleyes:

[DMAVS41]

Incoming deflection :rolleyes:

Deflection of what? That makes my point.

He just said you need a lot of help to win in the West. So why would Kobe be able to lead this team of Cavs (who are now marginally better, if at all, than the 06 Lakers) past the elite Warriors?

Deflection?

You made my point clown.

[FKAri]

No. Even a prime Shaq would need a reasonably healthy Irving or some other serviceable outside threat.

[sd3035]

Kobe won two titles with a worse team in a much tougher conference
so yes

[HOoopCityJones]

I don't know why you guys even bother with DMAVS41.. dude's a Kobe hater. I commend him for showing LeBron love at times, but I disrespect him for doing it at the expense of hating another all-time great (Kobe). He's been that way from day 1 and will do whatever it takes to have it known that he hates the guy.

I'm a LeBron fan and a huge Kobe fan.. just calling it like I see it.

We don't take him seriously.

[kennethgriffin]

He said that shit like 4 years ago


he said it 3 years ago

and 3 years ago lebron was in his absolute prime

todays lebron is a much less dominant player than he used to be

he might be better in the post now but hes declined in literally every other aspect

[LAZERUSS]

Kobe won two titles with a worse team in a much tougher conference
so yes

:roll: :roll: :roll:

A healthy Bynum, a healthy Gasol, Artest, and Odom.

Hell, Gasol had a legitimate argument as their best player in both post-seasons.

[DMAVS41]

We don't take him seriously.

You do.

You just don't respond because you get your shit blown up constantly....

[sd3035]

This team won the finals in 5 games :bowdown:

http://oi61.tinypic.com/25p4ia0.jpg

[BigTicket]

No, they could not.

That's not a knock on either of them, it's simply because basketball is a team sport, and you need good teammates to win.

You can look at Jordan in the 86,87,88 playoffs, or Kobe in the 06 or 07 playoffs if you want an example of how they did with weak supporting casts

[HOoopCityJones]

You do.

You just don't respond because you get your shit blown up constantly....

I know you ain't talking? You've been butt fucced every which way by anyone anytime you say something.

I remember when Kblaze was throat fuccing you with Dirk being just another Channing Fry without his height and your bitch ass straight lost it.

:roll:

[PJR]

Jordan, perhaps. Jordan's outrageous scoring consistency and overall dominance in the playoffs is unparalleled. Still don't think he beats Golden State, all things equal.

Kobe? Don't make me laugh.

[pauk]

Of course, game was very close but Lebron failed in the clutch. MJ is much better at it, and much better defender too, hence Cavs with MJ would have won GM1, and likely the series.


In playoffs, 4th/OT, last seconds of the game, gametying or gamewinning shots:

Lebron:

8 of 19 (42.1%)

Jordan:

7 of 15 (46.6%)

Kobe:

5 of 22 (22.7%)

4.5% higher chance of Jordan making a better shot in Game 1 is not "MUCH"..... dont watch to much/only Jordan highlights & highlight games my man.... he was human to....

...and Kobe?

[LAZERUSS]

No, they could not.

That's not a knock on either of them, it's simply because basketball is a team sport, and you need good teammates to win.

You can look at Jordan in the 86,87,88 playoffs, or Kobe in the 06 or 07 playoffs if you want an example of how they did with weak supporting casts

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[DMAVS41]

I know you ain't talking? You've been butt fucced every which way by anyone anytime you say something.

I remember when Kblaze was throat fuccing you with Dirk being just another Channing Fry without his height and your bitch ass straight lost it.

:roll:

Kblaze saying that was one of the dumbest things ever said on here and he runs from that comment every time I bring it up.

Take the L

Kobe isn't winning shit with this Cavs team...sorry.

[HOoopCityJones]

Kblaze saying that was one of the dumbest things ever said on here and he runs from that comment every time I bring it up.

Take the L

Kobe isn't winning shit with this Cavs team...sorry.

I never said he would or wouldn't , only time Ive even entertained OP's question is when some idiot said Kobe wouldn't even make the Playoffs with a Team like this and I said he's right, because he's made it with a worse Team in the superior conference.

He's just running from your stupid ass arguments, there's a difference. Dirk isn't really a special player at all really. 7ft and has only averaged double digits rebounds like twice for a season? :biggums:

[LAZERUSS]

I never said he would or wouldn't , only time Ive even entertained OP's question is when some idiot said Kobe wouldn't even make the Playoffs with a Team like this and I said he's right, because he's made it with a worse Team in the superior conference.

He's just running from your stupid ass arguments, there's a difference. Dirk isn't really a special player at all really. 7ft and has only averaged double digits rebounds like twice for a season? :biggums:

Take a close look at Dirk's post-season career and tell us all here that he wasn't an all-time great.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html

[Jasper]

NO

[HOoopCityJones]

Take a close look at Dirk's post-season career and tell us all here that he wasn't an all-time great.

Lightning has to strike at least once, right? :applause:

I applaud his effort , he swept a beat up Lakers after their three year run to the Finals and slayed the collusion out east in superior fashion. But we can't just ignore things like getting ousted by a 8th seed as the favorite.

Not much of an all time great. Top 30 for sure though.

[DMAVS41]

I never said he would or wouldn't , only time Ive even entertained OP's question is when some idiot said Kobe wouldn't even make the Playoffs with a Team like this and I said he's right, because he's made it with a worse Team in the superior conference.

He's just running from your stupid ass arguments, there's a difference. Dirk isn't really a special player at all really. 7ft and has only averaged double digits rebounds like twice for a season? :biggums:

Stupid arguments?

I don't even make threads or arguments.

I just login to see what morons are saying today.

Last year it was that Durant was better than Kobe ever was. I was called a Kobe stan repeatedly for not agreeing with people in that thread.

Called a Lebron hater when I talk honestly about competition strength.

Called a Kobe hater when I don't agree that the 09 and 10 supporting casts were terrible...etc.

Please list the arguments that are stupid and then if they are...please easily refute them as you should be able to if they are so stupid.

And no, he runs from that comment because he's realized how stupid it was....just like his comments about how the Magic shouldn't trade Afflalo and that he was a "star" player...

[plowking]

Of course, game was very close but Lebron failed in the clutch. MJ is much better at it, and much better defender too, hence Cavs with MJ would have won GM1, and likely the series.

:roll:

[DMAVS41]

Lightning has to strike at least once, right? :applause:

I applaud his effort , he swept a beat up Lakers after their three year run to the Finals and slayed the collusion out east in superior fashion. But we can't just ignore things like getting ousted by a 8th seed as the favorite.

Not much of an all time great. Top 30 for sure though.

Yet his entire career he was a monster in the playoffs.

He's one of 4 players in NBA history to average over 25/10 for their playoff careers.

You won't find any evidence of Dirk not being an all time great in the numbers or team success either....especially given the circumstances.

538 rated the 00 through 12 Mavs as one of the best runs a franchise has ever had. Factor in the circumstances of playing with average help compared to the other teams on that list...and it's quite impressive to have the run Dirk and the Mavs did.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bill-russells-celtics-were-great-tim-duncans-spurs-have-been-better/

Also, your argument is just semantics...being a top 30 player (he's better than that actually) definitely makes one an all time great.

[sd3035]

Kobe or MJ would crush the Warriors with this team

One of the best centers and power forwards in the league, loaded with 3 point snipers, excellent coach


This team would easily be the favorite if it had MJ or Kobe in place of Lebald

[HOoopCityJones]

Stupid arguments?

I don't even make threads or arguments.

I just login to see what morons are saying today.

Last year it was that Durant was better than Kobe ever was. I was called a Kobe stan repeatedly for not agreeing with people in that thread.

Called a Lebron hater when I talk honestly about competition strength.

Called a Kobe hater when I don't agree that the 09 and 10 supporting casts were terrible...etc.

Please list the arguments that are stupid and then if they are...please easily refute them as you should be able to if they are so stupid.

And no, he runs from that comment because he's realized how stupid it was....just like his comments about how the Magic shouldn't trade Afflalo and that he was a "star" player...


Yet his entire career he was a monster in the playoffs.

He's one of 4 players in NBA history to average over 25/10 for their playoff careers.

You won't find any evidence of Dirk not being an all time great in the numbers or team success either....especially given the circumstances.

538 rated the 00 through 12 Mavs as one of the best runs a franchise has ever had. Factor in the circumstances of playing with average help compared to the other teams on that list...and it's quite impressive to have the run Dirk and the Mavs did.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bill-russells-celtics-were-great-tim-duncans-spurs-have-been-better/

Also, your argument is just semantics...being a top 30 player (he's better than that actually) definitely makes one an all time great.


http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/uMm6XXvxTFedntqAq4Mf_tumblr_mhu3ekIWK61qkgn3eo1_40 0.gif

[LAZERUSS]

Lightning has to strike at least once, right? :applause:

I applaud his effort , he swept a beat up Lakers after their three year run to the Finals and slayed the collusion out east in superior fashion. But we can't just ignore things like getting ousted by a 8th seed as the favorite.

Not much of an all time great. Top 30 for sure though.

Dirk taking that cast of clowns to a 67-15 record speaks more about his greatness. And yes, his playoff performance that year was arguably the worst of his career. Of course, Kobe, Bird, and even Kareem have had numerous post-season flop jobs, as well.

[HOoopCityJones]

Dirk taking that cast of clowns to a 67-15 record speaks more about his greatness. And yes, his playoff performance that year was arguably the worst of his career. Of course, Kobe, Bird, and even Kareem have had numerous post-season flop jobs, as well.

Dirk is terrible at Defense as well.

Just dropped to Top 30.

I'm sorry , these things matter. :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/uMm6XXvxTFedntqAq4Mf_tumblr_mhu3ekIWK61qkgn3eo1_40 0.gif

See.

Here is the difference between actually "hating"...

Someone saying Dirk isn't a special player is "hating"...nobody that knows the game would agree with that on any level.

Someone saying that Kobe isn't for sure better than Hakeem and Lebron...or that he wasn't an elite defender the majority of his career....that isn't hating.

The fact that you think they are the same is the problem.

[branslowski]

Lets see, Mozcov in the middle droppin 15pts and gettin boards along with tristian Thompson being a beast on the offensive glass and then you have J.R Smith who can come in and light sh!t up from 3 better than any bench player Kobe ever won with? Yea Kobe wins with this team...Kobe won a title with Bynum averaging 6ppg 6reb during a series, Mozgov has more of an impact. And Thompson wont score 18ppg like Gasol but he would get way more offensive and defensive rebounds aswell as be a way bigger impact on defense which is way more valuable than Gasol. Kobe wins with this team easy.

So does Jordan.

[sd3035]

Lets see, Mozcov in the middle droppin 15pts and gettin boards along with tristian Thompson being a beast on the offensive glass and then you have J.R Smith who can come in and light sh!t up from 3 better than any bench player Kobe ever won with? Yea Kobe wins with this team...Kobe won a title with Bynum averaging 6ppg 6reb during a series, Mozgov has more of an impact. And Thompson wont score 18ppg like Gasol but he would get way more offensive and defensive rebounds aswell as be a way bigger impact on defense which is way more valuable than Gasol. Kobe wins with this team easy.

So does Jordan.

solid post

[HOoopCityJones]

See.

Here is the difference between actually "hating"...

Someone saying Dirk isn't a special player is "hating"...nobody that knows the game would agree with that on any level.

Someone saying that Kobe isn't for sure better than Hakeem and Lebron...or that he wasn't an elite defender the majority of his career....that isn't hating.

The fact that you think they are the same is the problem.

How Am I hating? :biggums:

I said Dirk is Top 30, swept my Lakers, beat the Heat, Clutch as fucc. Those are compliments.

But lack of Defense , poor rebounding for a Center/PF, outsed by a 8th seed. These are black marks on his resume that can never be forgotten.

[DMAVS41]

Lets see, Mozcov in the middle droppin 15pts and gettin boards along with tristian Thompson being a beast on the offensive glass and then you have J.R Smith who can come in and light sh!t up from 3 better than any bench player Kobe ever won with? Yea Kobe wins with this team...Kobe won a title with Bynum averaging 6ppg 6reb during a series, Mozgov has more of an impact. And Thompson wont score 18ppg like Gasol but he would get way more offensive and defensive rebounds aswell as be a way bigger impact on defense which is way more valuable than Gasol. Kobe wins with this team easy.

So does Jordan.

Just a quick question.

Are you biased?

Or is the recent 538 study that ranked this supporting cast (with Kyrie playing games) as the 3rd worst in the last 30 years clearly wrong?

Which one is it?

Or are you saying that Kobe could take arguably the worst supporting cast in the last 30 years to make the finals and beat an all time great Warriors team?

[DMAVS41]

How Am I hating? :biggums:

I said Dirk is Top 30, swept my Lakers, beat the Heat, Clutch as fucc. Those are compliments.

But lack of Defense , poor rebounding for a Center/PF, outsed by a 8th seed. These are black marks on his resume that can never be forgotten.

You said he was not a special player. That is hating.

I'll refresh your memory:

Dirk isn't really a special player at all really.

You see? That is hating...you should at least know what you accuse others of.

Saying that Dirk wasn't a great defender and has black marks on his career is accurate.

He wasn't a poor rebounder though...that isn't hating...it's just false.

[branslowski]

Just a quick question.

Are you biased?

Or is the recent 538 study that ranked this supporting cast (with Kyrie playing games) as the 3rd worst in the last 30 years clearly wrong?

Which one is it?

Or are you saying that Kobe could take arguably the worst supporting cast in the last 30 years to make the finals and beat an all time great Warriors team?

I'm saying Mozgov would do better than Bynum's 6ppg.

I'm saying Thompson on the boards and defensively has a bigger impact than Gasol's 18ppg and no defense and soft play.

What i'm saying is truth and anyone who actually watches basketball would agree.

[HOoopCityJones]

You said he was not a special player. That is hating.

I'll refresh your memory:

Dirk isn't really a special player at all really.

You see? That is hating...you should at least know what you accuse others of.

Saying that Dirk wasn't a great defender and has black marks on his career is accurate.

He wasn't a poor rebounder though...that isn't hating...it's just false.

For his position? Fucc yea he was.

[DMAVS41]

For his position? Fucc yea he was.

Poor? No...he just wasn't elite.

Dirk got almost no offensive rebounds because he was away from the basket all the time. He's always been an excellent defensive rebounder...and you don't average over 10 a game in the playoffs while playing far away from the basket on offense for an entire playoff career that spans 15 years...if you are a poor rebounder.

Words actually mean things.

Poor? Nope.

Not elite or not great? Sure.

[DMAVS41]

I'm saying Mozgov would do better than Bynum's 6ppg.

I'm saying Thompson on the boards and defensively has a bigger impact than Gasol's 18ppg and no defense and soft play.

What i'm saying is truth and anyone who actually watches basketball would agree.

You think Thompson is better than 09 and 10 Pau?

[LAZERUSS]

For his position? Fucc yea he was.

10.2 rpg in his post-season career. Rodman averaged 9.9 rpg in his.

[sd3035]

You think Thompson is better than 09 and 10 Pau?

much better. Gasol was a product of Kobe

[HOoopCityJones]

Poor? No...he just wasn't elite.

Dirk got almost no offensive rebounds because he was away from the basket all the time. He's always been an excellent defensive rebounder...and you don't average over 10 a game in the playoffs while playing far away from the basket on offense for an entire playoff career that spans 15 years...if you are a poor rebounder.

Words actually mean things.

Poor? Nope.

Not elite or not great? Sure.

Exactly my point. Top 30 at best.


7 footer barley averaging double digit rebounds for only two seasons for an entire career? Can't let something like that slide. :confusedshrug:

[catch24]

Kobe like most of the Top 10 would get the Cavs into the finals. I mean, the east is one of the weakest conferences in history.

Would they be able to beat the Warriors? Doubt it.

[DMAVS41]

10.2 rpg in his post-season career. Rodman averaged 9.9 rpg in his.

It's not only that...it's the fact that Dirk had almost no chance to get offensive rebounds given his role on the team and his strengths on offense.

It's silly to ignore that.

But yea...you are right...averaging 11 boards per game in the playoffs during your prime isn't an indication you are a shitty rebounder.

I'll gladly agree that he wasn't Duncan or Wallace or KG...etc, but a crappy rebounder? Just no.

That is both hating and false.

[HOoopCityJones]

10.2 rpg in his post-season career. Rodman averaged 9.9 rpg in his.

I said regular season. Dirk's only made to the promise land two fuccing time, so a lot of good it did his Team. :lol

[DMAVS41]

Exactly my point. Top 30 at best.


7 footer barley averaging double digit rebounds for only two seasons for an entire career? Can't let something like that slide. :confusedshrug:

So if you aren't elite at something...you are poor?

And again...forget where you actually rank Dirk. I disagree, but don't care to debate it.

Do you still stand behind this comment?

Dirk isn't really a special player at all really.

[branslowski]

You think Thompson is better than 09 and 10 Pau?

Thompson isn't a better 1 on 1 offensive player, but against the Celtics in that 08' Finals he would have been far more valuable to have than Gasol...He would have brought defensive play aswell as toughness on the boards, qualities we really needed...But let me guess, you'll disagree with this and then flip how you view rebounding and defensive impact when you discuss Duncan, but when it doesn't fit your agenda i'm guessing Thompson's rebounding and defensive effort would mean nothing now, right?

[HOoopCityJones]

So if you aren't elite at something...you are poor?

And again...forget where you actually rank Dirk. I disagree, but don't care to debate it.

Do you still stand behind this comment?

Dirk isn't really a special player at all really.

Without his height he'd be Channing Frye. :confusedshrug:

No defense, poor rebounder for his height, ni99a only averaged above 3 assts one time in his career.

Top 30 at best.

[branslowski]

much better. Gasol was a product of Kobe

If you hate Kobe you wont agree with that...Even if Gasol was 0-8 without Kobe in playoffs, and then 2 years ago when Gasol and Dwight started for the Lakers in a series and haters was like "Watch Lakers win because Kobe isn't playing so Dwight and Gasol will go ham", Gasol got swept again...0-12 All-Time without Kobe (not counting this season with the Bulls)

[DMAVS41]

Thompson isn't a better 1 on 1 offensive player, but against the Celtics in that 08' Finals he would have been far more valuable to have than Gasol...He would have brought defensive play aswell as toughness on the boards, qualities we really needed...But let me guess, you'll disagree with this and then flip how you view rebounding and defensive impact when you discuss Duncan, but when it doesn't fit your agenda i'm guessing Thompson's rebounding and defensive effort would mean nothing now, right?

Well, I don't think Thompson is close to as good as Pau...

And I certainly don't think he's remotely close enough to Duncan on defense to warrant the comparison.

It's not flip flopping when I completely disagree with your assessment of him as a player.

TT is a really nice player and he's surprised me, but he's not prime Pau.

[LAZERUSS]

Without his height he'd be Channing Frye. :confusedshrug:

No defense, poor rebounder for his height, ni99a only averaged above 3 assts one time in his career.

Top 30 at best.

I guess Bird is well outside the Top-30 then, right?

Once again, take a look at their career post-season numbers, and it is as close as it gets. In fact, Dirk probably has an edge.

[Cold soul]

He said that shit like 4 years ago

It still holds true today. Bird knows what he's talking about.

[HOoopCityJones]

I guess Bird is well outside the Top-30 then, right?

Once again, take a look at their career post-season numbers, and it is as close as it gets. In fact, Dirk probably has an edge.

I know Dirk is great, just trolling that fucc DMAVS with his own hater ass logic.

Be consistent with the arguments you make, that's all.

[branslowski]

Well, I don't think Thompson is close to as good as Pau...

And I certainly don't think he's remotely close enough to Duncan on defense to warrant the comparison.

It's not flip flopping when I completely disagree with your assessment of him as a player.

TT is a really nice player and he's surprised me, but he's not prime Pau.

:oldlol: I wasn't comparing him to Duncan, just your argument on how important defense and rebounding is, when in this argument you are obviously turning a blind eye to it but let it be another player like Duncan up for debate, then all of a sudden defense and rebounding is an important part of the game and it's "not only about scoring"...

No one's sayng Thompson is All-Time greater than Pau, what im saying is his defensive impact along with his monster hustle and rebounding would have been more important to the Lakers vs 08' Celtics than Gasol's scoring. Gasol getting punked in the paint by KG and Perk had a bigger impact than anything in that series..Getting out hustled on the boards showed we had no heart down low, thus the name Gasoft. Thompson would have changed that....Kobe would destroy this Warriors team byhimself...Especially if he got to go Iso like LeBron 1on1...With Mozgov playing better than Bynum did during any Finals and again Thompson with better defense and rebounding than Gasol, hell yeah Kobe wins this series in 6 games easy.

[LAZERUSS]

I know Dirk is great, just trolling that fucc DMAVS with his own hater ass logic.

Be consistent with the arguments you make, that's all.

Well, on this forum, sometimes it's difficult to differentiate between trolls and morons.

:cheers:

[HOoopCityJones]

Well, on this forum, sometimes it's difficult to differentiate between trolls and morons.

:cheers:

Dirk still lost to an 8th seed as the favorite tho. :cheers:

[catch24]

:oldlol: I wasn't comparing him to Duncan, just your argument on how important defense and rebounding is, when in this argument you are obviously turning a blind eye to it but let it be another player like Duncan up for debate, then all of a sudden defense and rebounding is an important part of the game and it's "not only about scoring"...

No one's sayng Thompson is All-Time greater than Pau, what im saying is his defensive impact along with his monster hustle and rebounding would have been more important to the Lakers vs 08' Celtics than Gasol's scoring. Gasol getting punked in the paint by KG and Perk had a bigger impact than anything in that series..Getting out hustled on the boards showed we had no heart down low, thus the name Gasoft. Thompson would have changed that....Kobe would destroy this Warriors team byhimself...Especially if he got to go Iso like LeBron 1on1...With Mozgov playing better than Bynum did during any Finals and again Thompson with better defense and rebounding than Gasol, hell yeah Kobe wins this series in 6 games easy.

Good posts bro. Was inactive for a couple years, so its nice to see old faces/vets :cheers:

[Dr.J4ever]

I doubt it. How often is a retired players opinion of Lebron anything but glowing praise or downright awe? Its never been legends leading the Lebron hate. We got a few quotes on how they wouldnt team up...and go look at who said it...and their current opinions on Lebron. They are almost always the ones explaining why hes so amazing while fans pretend their opinions are invalid or a veiled shot at one of their peers.

Its just great after great gushing with praise. Rick Barry recently putting him over Bird, Doc, and himself as the greatest 3 ever. nate Thurmond talking about how much hje admires him and how hes the best ever at making teammates better. Laimbeer saying hed take him over Jordan. We all hear Barkley all the time. Its coaches..HOF college coaches...HOF NBA coahes....ex players...guys who gave more to the game and watched the greats up close more than we ever could. Its Magic...its Jerry West...its Bird. Oscar saying he was as good as Jordan. Kobe defending Lebron on Twitter recently. Pippen and Cartwright with their Lebron vs Jordan comments that got people angry.

Retired player and legends of the game have been going on and on about Lebron forever and it continues.

If they lose the legends will be among the most vocal defenders he has.

Its fans who hate on Lebron.

Basketball people dont seem to. You might get some shot taken now and then....but its clear where most of the greats stand.

They arent gonna bash Lebron over beating a 60+ win team without his 2 best players then failing to beat a 67 win team.

Most of them have been there before.

They dont do any dumb 2/6 talk.

Thats all fans. And many of the fans im convinced arent actually this stupid. Just jokes and trying to rile people up.

Utterly demolished that BS:applause:

[LAZERUSS]

Dirk still lost to an 8th seed as the favorite tho. :cheers:

Again, Bird, Kobe, Kareem, and other's have all had their "flop jobs." Dirk wasn't the only one.

[HOoopCityJones]

Again, Bird, Kobe, Kareem, and other's have all had their "flop jobs." Dirk wasn't the only one.

Ikr, relax :roll:

You ni99as can dish out a bunch of arbitrary shit , but certainly can't take it.

[branslowski]

Good posts bro. Was inactive for a couple years, so its nice to see old faces/vets :cheers:

:cheers: Wats good bro

[Quickening]

Kobe fans saying TT is better than peak Gasol :roll: :lol :roll:

[HOoopCityJones]

Kobe fans saying TT is better than peak Gasol :roll: :lol :roll:

I give your reading skill level 2/6 :roll: :lol :roll:

[Tez62]

Just a quick question.

Are you biased?

Or is the recent 538 study that ranked this supporting cast (with Kyrie playing games) as the 3rd worst in the last 30 years clearly wrong?

Which one is it?

Or are you saying that Kobe could take arguably the worst supporting cast in the last 30 years to make the finals and beat an all time great Warriors team?

And yet, you don't know (or understand) how the supporting casts were ranked in the article

[Quickening]

I give your reading skill level 2/6 :roll: :lol :roll:
I give your trolling 2/7 :roll: :lol :roll:

[HOoopCityJones]

I give your trolling 2/7 :roll: :lol :roll:

Warped perception of reality too? Most people have to pay for such a thing.

[Optimus Prime]

Jordan: Probably

Kobe: Maybe

Prime Jordan and Kobe would run wild in today's soft as Charmin league. This Warrior's team is really good, but they are a product of the kinder, gentler NBA.

Since when did KBlaze become such a LeBron stan? It's amazing how all of Kobe's faults are over-analyzed and held as huge negatives against him, but all of LeBron's failings are just glossed over like they don't matter. The collusion, the ring chasing, the flopping, the choking on big stages constantly, the 2/6...that matters because other than Jerry West (who faced Russell's Celtics, one of the best dynasties ever), I can't think of another all-time great who has failed on the big stage as much as LeBron. It's madness.

:kobe:

[KG215]

Actually it doesn't.

It was ranked as the 18th best supporting cast (out of 60) to make the finals in the last 30 years.

Factor in GOAT level coaching and the fact that Kobe had more help in the finals than Dwight based on the same study....and you absolutely do not get what you are talking about.

Sorry.
This. But you're never going to see Griff (or any other hardcore Kobe fanboy who uses this same tired excuse all the damn time) admit or even acknowledge that, relative to the rest of the league in 2009 and 2010, Kobe had the best second option of superstars on contenders, and arguably had the best overall supporting cast in relation to other contenders.

[NBASTATMAN]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

A healthy Bynum, a healthy Gasol, Artest, and Odom.

Hell, Gasol had a legitimate argument as their best player in both post-seasons.



THIS


NEITHER MJ OR KOBE WOULD BEAT THIS WARRIORS TEAM .. NOT EVEN SURE IF THEY BOTH WOULD BRING THIS TEAM TO THE FINALS..

[HOoopCityJones]

This. But you're never going to see Griff (or any other hardcore Kobe fanboy who uses this same tired excuse all the damn time) admit or even acknowledge that, relative to the rest of the league in 2009 and 2010, Kobe had the best second option of superstars on contenders, and arguably had the best overall supporting cast in relation to other contenders.

:roll:

More than the Celtics?

[NBASTATMAN]

This. But you're never going to see Griff (or any other hardcore Kobe fanboy who uses this same tired excuse all the damn time) admit or even acknowledge that, relative to the rest of the league in 2009 and 2010, Kobe had the best second option of superstars on contenders, and arguably had the best overall supporting cast in relation to other contenders.


WITHOUT BYNUM AND KOBE THE LAKERS WENT SOMETHING LIKE 6-2 .. Most thought they would scuk but they played great even without two of their three best players.... That says it all.... During those two seasons no OTHER team was close in talent...

[branslowski]

This. But you're never going to see Griff (or any other hardcore Kobe fanboy who uses this same tired excuse all the damn time) admit or even acknowledge that, relative to the rest of the league in 2009 and 2010, Kobe had the best second option of superstars on contenders, and arguably had the best overall supporting cast in relation to other contenders.

You seem to just look at the names and their height and not the production during those finals...You talk about Supporting cast when Bynum avg 6ppg 4reb during Finals, Artest avg 11ppg 41%fg during playoff run, Odom avg 8ppg during playoff run and Gasol gets b!tched by Celtics in the paint....You neglect to read, you rather be blinded by your hate of Kobe fans, it's sad really...

[branslowski]

WITHOUT BYNUM AND KOBE THE LAKERS WENT SOMETHING LIKE 6-2 .. Most thought they would scuk but they played great even without two of their three best players.... That says it all.... During those two seasons no OTHER team was close in talent...

So what about the playoffs 2 years ago when Lakers Had Gasol and Dwight and still got swept?..:coleman:

Yawl keep saying Bynum's name yet fail to search the facts that he averaged 6ppg 4reb in the Finals.:coleman:

[KG215]

:roll:

More than the Celtics?
In 2009 after Garnett got hurt and didn't play in the playoffs? Absolutely. The Celtics were in no way a threat in 2009 after Garnett got hurt. 2010 is debatable because the Celtics weren't nearly as impressive in the regular season as they were in 2008 and 2009 (before Garnett got injured), and their Big 3 were on the very back end of their prime by then. But they showed they "still had it" in the playoffs.

[branslowski]

Kobe fans saying TT is better than peak Gasol :roll: :lol :roll:

You obviously can't read.

[Tez62]

This. But you're never going to see Griff (or any other hardcore Kobe fanboy who uses this same tired excuse all the damn time) admit or even acknowledge that, relative to the rest of the league in 2009 and 2010, Kobe had the best second option of superstars on contenders, and arguably had the best overall supporting cast in relation to other contenders.

You don't understand the analytics in the article.

Any halfwit with any career experience in analytics could tear through the rankings and analysis quickly if given the data

[branslowski]

I admit Kobe stans are outladish saying he's better than Jordan and saying he's undisputed top 5 and calling LeBron overrated exc....But that doesn't excuse the haters of Kobe to rewrite history and Claim Bynum was a reason Lakers got a title when he avg 6ppg 4reb having less impact than Mozgov...Or bring up Odom (the same Odom who played with Wade once upon a time) who avg 8ppg, or bring up Artest who avg 11ppg 43%fg....Claiming these guy's carried Kobe to a title while Kobe avg 29-5-5 and 30-5-5 during these same playoff runs and won 2 Finals MVP's...ALL FACTS.

It's sad to hate a player because of his fans. To just try and discredit him like that. I'm done with this nonsense for today. Hopefully tonight is a great game and Curry and Bron puts on a show.:rockon:

[HOoopCityJones]

In 2009 after Garnett got hurt and didn't play in the playoffs? Absolutely. The Celtics were in no way a threat in 2009 after Garnett got hurt. 2010 is debatable because the Celtics weren't nearly as impressive in the regular season as they were in 2008 and 2009 (before Garnett got injured), and their Big 3 were on the very back end of their prime by then. But they showed they "still had it" in the playoffs.

Dude, even with KG injured , Pierce, Allen and Rondo were better than either of Kobe's best Teammates after Gasol. More productive too.

[HOoopCityJones]

I admit Kobe stans are outladish saying he's better than Jordan and saying he's undisputed top 5 and calling LeBron overrated exc....But that doesn't excuse the haters of Kobe to rewrite history and Claim Bynum was a reason Lakers got a title when he avg 6ppg 43b having less impact than Mozgov...Or bring up Odom (the same Odom who played with Wade once upon a time) who avg 8ppg, or bring up Artest who avg 11ppg 43%fg....Claiming these guy's carried Kobe to a title while Kobe avg 29-5-5 and 30-5-5 during these same playoff runs and won 2 Finals MVP's...ALL FACTS.

It's sad to hate a player because of his fans. To just try and discredit him like that. I'm done with this nonsense for today. Hopefully tonight is a great game and Curry and Bron puts on a show.:rockon:

:applause:

[KG215]

You seem to just look at the names and their height and not the production during those finals...You talk about Supporting cast when Bynum avg 6ppg 4reb during Finals, Artest avg 11ppg 41%fg during playoff run, Odom avg 8ppg during playoff run and Gasol gets b!tched by Celtics in the paint....You neglect to read, you rather be blinded by your hate of Kobe fans, it's sad really...
I never said anything about Bynum. And I've never said Kobe's supporting cast is some all-time great supporting cast compared to championship teams in other seasons and eras. But the continual downplay by Kobe fanboys of Kobe's supporting cast in 2009 and 2010, relative to the rest of the league in those two seasons, has gotten comical. Kobe fans try and act like he carried a pile of shit to rings while ignoring that what Kobe had backing him up was either on par with, or better than what the other best players in the league had backing them up.

I have no problem with people saying Kobe's supporting cast in direct comparison to supporting casts of other all-time greats wasn't anything special in 2009 and 2010, because it's true. I have a problem with Kobe fanboys using that as a way to try and prop up Kobe because it means they're completely and totally ignoring context and what the rest of the league looked like in 2009 and 2010.

[G0ATbe]

LOL @ people saying yes for Jordan:facepalm . We've seen what he could do with a team of this tier...1-9. Godbe won back to back.

[tpols]

They could make the Finals easily given competition and tristan thompson/mozgov/shumpert defensive combo.. I mean prime Kobe was a 30+ppg 57+TS player at his peak.. Jordan was even better. Lebron could afford to get away with 40 something TS shooting + tons of TOs because the defense behind him was getting a ton of stops and extra opportunities from offensive rebounding.


Beating Golden State would be a stretch for either of them though..

[HOoopCityJones]

I never said anything about Bynum. And I've never said Kobe's supporting cast is some all-time great supporting cast compared to championship teams in other seasons and eras. But the continual downplay by Kobe fanboys of Kobe's supporting cast in 2009 and 2010, relative to the rest of the league in those two seasons, has gotten comical. Kobe fans try and act like he carried a pile of shit to rings while ignoring that what Kobe had backing him up was either on par with, or better than what the other best players in the league had backing them up.

I have no problem with people saying Kobe's supporting cast in direct comparison to supporting casts of other all-time greats wasn't anything special in 2009 and 2010, because it's true. I have a problem with Kobe fanboys using that as a way to try and prop up Kobe because it means they're completely and totally ignoring context and what the rest of the league looked like in 2009 and 2010.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff68/r1os420/LA-Lakers-2010-Roster-Widescreen-Wa.jpg

You were saying? :biggums:

Who's elite there aside from Gasol?

[KG215]

Dude, even with KG injured , Pierce, Allen and Rondo were better than either of Kobe's best Teammates after Gasol. More productive too.
Take KG off the 2009 Celtics, because, you know, he was out the entire 2009 playoffs and the last quarter of the season or so.

Kobe and Gasol > Pierce and Allen

2009 Kobe > 2009 Pierce and 2009 Gasol > 2009 Allen

Hell, you could make a case 2009 Gasol was better than 2009 Pierce.

And as for the rest?

Odom gets badly underrated by Kobe fanboys. In the 2009 playoffs Odom put up 12-9-2-1 on great efficiency and posted a higher playoff PER, VORP, and WS/48 than both Paul Pierce or Ray Allen.

[KG215]

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff68/r1os420/LA-Lakers-2010-Roster-Widescreen-Wa.jpg

You were saying? :biggums:

Who's elite there aside from Gasol?
:applause:

Excellent rebuttal. You got me.

:rolleyes:

[NBASTATMAN]

So what about the playoffs 2 years ago when Lakers Had Gasol and Dwight and still got swept?..:coleman:

Yawl keep saying Bynum's name yet fail to search the facts that he averaged 6ppg 4reb in the Finals.:coleman:


First we are speaking about the years the Lakers won the titles.. Understand that...


As for the year you are bringing up I will address that for you ...

Kobe was injured and didnt play..
Artest had his knee scoped and came back in record time but really couldnt play at his level during that playoffs.
Steve Blake played the first two games but was injured AND Didnt play the next two games..
Steve Nash was hurting as well..
Jodie Meeks was hurt right before the playoffs and didnt play..


All these injuries happened right before the playoffs and during the playoffs.. So your two shooting guards were out, your small forward was playing after an injury in record time. Steve Blake got hurt in game two. And Steve Nash was playing hurt...No way a team can win with all their guard injured... NOWAY:rockon:

[PsychoBe]

if anyone else had kobe's supporting cast on mycareer in nba2k they'd demand a trade :roll: :roll: :roll:

[JellyBean]

With the latest round of events, Jordan nor Kobe would not be able to win a title with this Cavs team.

[NBASTATMAN]

You seem to just look at the names and their height and not the production during those finals...You talk about Supporting cast when Bynum avg 6ppg 4reb during Finals, Artest avg 11ppg 41%fg during playoff run, Odom avg 8ppg during playoff run and Gasol gets b!tched by Celtics in the paint....You neglect to read, you rather be blinded by your hate of Kobe fans, it's sad really...


I quickly took a look and Odom never avg under 9.7 pts in the playoffs.. Still if you are speaking about 2008 the Celtics were more talented than the Lakers.. The Lakers shit the bed though cuz they gave game four away...

[DMAVS41]

:oldlol: I wasn't comparing him to Duncan, just your argument on how important defense and rebounding is, when in this argument you are obviously turning a blind eye to it but let it be another player like Duncan up for debate, then all of a sudden defense and rebounding is an important part of the game and it's "not only about scoring"...

No one's sayng Thompson is All-Time greater than Pau, what im saying is his defensive impact along with his monster hustle and rebounding would have been more important to the Lakers vs 08' Celtics than Gasol's scoring. Gasol getting punked in the paint by KG and Perk had a bigger impact than anything in that series..Getting out hustled on the boards showed we had no heart down low, thus the name Gasoft. Thompson would have changed that....Kobe would destroy this Warriors team byhimself...Especially if he got to go Iso like LeBron 1on1...With Mozgov playing better than Bynum did during any Finals and again Thompson with better defense and rebounding than Gasol, hell yeah Kobe wins this series in 6 games easy.

Solely talking about the 08 finals? Perhaps I could see having a Thompson like player over Gasol making sense.

But what does that prove? The Lakers would have still gotten their shit kicked in because that would have put even more pressure on Kobe offensively and he wasn't at all good enough in that series to win it.

As for Thompson. I think you are really over-rating him here as a player. I don't think his defense is remotely good enough to warrant the kind of praise you are heaping on him.

Also, Pau was absolutely no slouch on defense or the boards for the Lakers. As usual, you under-rate Pau's impact outside of his offense.

And you talk about flip flopping? I just saw you lie about Odom's scoring in the playoffs. And what did you do? You only listed ppg...wonder why? If rebounding, hustle, and defense is valued so highly by you in the case of Thompson...why do you try to diminish Odom to just a lie about his ppg in the playoffs? When we all know Odom was a beast on the glass and very versatile defensively. Seems like you are the one flip flopping. I just don't happen to think Thompson is nearly as good as you do...that's all.

Again, we view the game differently, but the difference is that you don't have any objective data showing this Cavs supporting cast is better than the Lakers in 09/10 like you claim. In fact, you have no evidence at all that they aren't much worse...which they clearly are...

Any basketball fan with knowledge would readily admit this.

But because you are so blinded by Kobe...you can't. It's sad.

[livinglegend]

Let's go with facts:

Kobe: Lost of an inferior Suns team with a superior supporting cast. Conclusion: He loses with this cast against the warriors 0-4.

Jordan: In similar situations, he was 1-9. Conclusion: He loses against warrior 0-4.


NEXT

[NBASTATMAN]

Take KG off the 2009 Celtics, because, you know, he was out the entire 2009 playoffs and the last quarter of the season or so.

Kobe and Gasol > Pierce and Allen

2009 Kobe > 2009 Pierce and 2009 Gasol > 2009 Allen

Hell, you could make a case 2009 Gasol was better than 2009 Pierce.

And as for the rest?

Odom gets badly underrated by Kobe fanboys. In the 2009 playoffs Odom put up 12-9-2-1 on great efficiency and posted a higher playoff PER, VORP, and WS/48 than both Paul Pierce or Ray Allen.



This....

Bynum was an all star, Gasol was an all star, Odom won 6th man of the year, Fisher clutch as hell, and THE GOAT COACH...


How far has Kobe gotten without Phil... Dude pretty much made the playoffs once without Phil

[HOoopCityJones]

Take KG off the 2009 Celtics, because, you know, he was out the entire 2009 playoffs and the last quarter of the season or so.

Kobe and Gasol > Pierce and Allen

2009 Kobe > 2009 Pierce and 2009 Gasol > 2009 Allen

Hell, you could make a case 2009 Gasol was better than 2009 Pierce.

And as for the rest?

Odom gets badly underrated by Kobe fanboys. In the 2009 playoffs Odom put up 12-9-2-1 on great efficiency and posted a higher playoff PER, VORP, and WS/48 than both Paul Pierce or Ray Allen.


How are you using Kobe as an argument for how good his Teammates were? :biggums:

We're talking about his help. You can't use Kobe as his own Help. :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

And yet, you don't know (or understand) how the supporting casts were ranked in the article

I don't know the leveraged part of it...we all know what minute weighted plus/minus is.

And it that actually doesn't even matter.

It's just more ammo...why does this shit always go away from what Kobe fans say?

Like literally....every single time something comes out...whether it's play in elimination games, clutch play, game winning shots, rapm....it always paints Kobe more like his non fans describe him.

I ask again...why do you think that is?

Do you really think it's because it's all horribly biased against Kobe?

[HOoopCityJones]

Please shut the fucc up Dmavs, you're a flip flopper, if one stat says one thing to prop up Bryant or demean another All time great it means nothing, yet if it says the worse about Kobe somehow it's the end all be all. You're a contradiction.

You're no better than any stan on both sides.

[NBASTATMAN]

Let's go with facts:

Kobe: Lost of an inferior Suns team with a superior supporting cast. Conclusion: He loses with this cast against the warriors 0-4.

Jordan: In similar situations, he was 1-9. Conclusion: He loses against warrior 0-4.


NEXT


:cheers:

[NBASTATMAN]

Im outta here.. TOO NICE IN NY TO STAY HOME... HAVE A SAFE SUMMER EVERYONE :rockon:

[DMAVS41]

Please shut the fucc up Dmavs, you're a flip flopper, if one stat says one thing to prop up Bryant or demean another All time great it means nothing, yet if it says the worse about Kobe somehow it's the end all be all. You're a contradiction.

You're no better than any stan on both sides.

Could you actually give examples of this please?

Saying Duncan's defense/rebounding needs to be more valued and saying that TT doesn't warrant that kind of credit is not flip flopping.

I'm honestly unsure how good Thompson really is at defense. I mean...he's not a negative or anything, but he's also not anchoring a great defense or something.

I view him as about as good, perhaps a little worse, than Lamar Odom was for the Lakers in 09/10.

That isn't flip flopping. It's giving you a honest assessment of him as a player.

[KG215]

How are you using Kobe as an argument for how good his Teammates were? :biggums:

We're talking about his help. You can't use Kobe as his own Help. :facepalm
Ok, then you have to take away Paul Pierce, too, because Garnett didn't play the last quarter of the regular season and didn't play at all in the playoffs in 2009. So then you're left with Gasol vs Allen and 2009 Gasol was better than 2009 Allen. And Odom was very good in the 2009 playoffs. Like I said, in the post where you basically ignored the entire thing, Odom had a higher playoff PER, VORP, and WS/48 in the 2009 playoffs than both Paul Pierce and Ray Allen.

And, you know, the Lakers had that Phil Jackson guy, who is arguably the best coach of all-time, manning the bench. Of course this is always overlooked and/or ignored by Kobe fanboys, too, when talking about the 2009 and 2010 Lakers.

[sd3035]

Im outta here.. TOO NICE IN NY TO STAY HOME... HAVE A SAFE SUMMER EVERYONE :rockon:

Translation: My stannery will no longer be useful this year as my hero is about to get swept again

[HOoopCityJones]

Ok, then you have to take away Paul Pierce, too, because Garnett didn't play the last quarter of the regular season and didn't play at all in the playoffs in 2009. So then you're left with Gasol vs Allen and 2009 Gasol was better than 2009 Allen. And Odom was very good in the 2009 playoffs. Like I said, in the post where you basically ignored the entire thing, Odom had a higher playoff PER, VORP, and WS/48 in the 2009 playoffs than both Paul Pierce and Ray Allen.

And, you know, the Lakers had that Phil Jackson guy, who is arguably the best coach of all-time, manning the bench. Of course this is always overlooked and/or ignored by Kobe fanboys, too, when talking about the 2009 and 2010 Lakers.

I don't need advanced metrics to tell me Ray Allen and Paul Pierce were better players than Lamar Odom. the fact you do lets me know all I need to know about how you perceive this game.

Laker fans ignore Phil thing because Kobe is literally the only player where shit like that is brought up. If you're using Coaches as asterisk , then Bill Russel, Duncan, Jordan, Kareem, Magic etc. all of their success mean shit because insert Coach.

Basically what this all boils down to is any and every circumstance that Kobe was in he should be held accountable for more than any all time great , ever.

[KG215]

I don't need advanced metrics to tell me Ray Allen and Paul Pierce were better players than Lamar Odom. the fact you do lets me know all I need to know about how you perceive this game.

Laker fans ignore Phil thing because Kobe is literally the only player where shit like that is brought up. If you're using Coaches as asterisk , then Bill Russel, Duncan, Jordan, Kareem, Magic etc. all of their success mean shit because insert Coach.

Basically what this all boils down to is any and every circumstance that Kobe was in he should be held accountable for more than any all time great , ever.
He's not, but ok. I'll never deny Jordan and Russell and Duncan and Magic played for all-time great coaches. But when talking about 2009 and 2010, compared to the rest of the league in 2009 and 2010, when trying to demean Kobe's supporting cast, Kobe fans seem to never mention Kobe also had not only the best coach in the league at the time, but arguably the best coach of all-time. So did Jordan during his 6 titles, that's not the issue here, though.

You seem to do a lot of deflecting, ignoring, and glossing over when reading my posts. At no point have I ever said Kobe should be held more accountable than any other all-time great. That's just you being overly defensive and mad. I've made it quite clear I'm not comparing Kobe and his supporting cast to any other all-time great's supporting class in other seasons. I'm comparing Kobe and the help he had compared to the other best players in the NBA in 2009 and 2010 only. That's it.

Of course you somehow interpreted one of my posts to "Gasol, Bynum, and Odom" are superstars even though I never said anything remotely close to that. Hell, I never even mentioned Bynum in one of my posts. You're either a troll or have serious reading comprehension issues.

[HOoopCityJones]

He's not, but ok. I'll never deny Jordan and Russell and Duncan and Magic played for all-time great coaches. But when talking about 2009 and 2010, compared to the rest of the league in 2009 and 2010, when trying to demean Kobe's supporting cast, Kobe fans seem to never mention Kobe also had not only the best coach in the league at the time, but arguably the best coach of all-time. So did Jordan during his 6 titles, that's not the issue here, though.

You seem to do a lot of deflecting, ignoring, and glossing over when reading my posts. At no point have I ever said Kobe should be held more accountable than any other all-time great. That's just you being overly defensive and mad. I've made it quite clear I'm not comparing Kobe and his supporting cast to any other al-time great's supporting class in other seasons. I'm comparing Kobe and the help he had compared to the other best players in the NBA in 2009 and 2010 only. That's it.

Of course you somehow interpreted one of my posts to "Gasol, Bynum, and Odom" are superstars even though I never said anything remotely close to that. Hell, I never even mentioned Bynum in one of my posts. You're either a troll or have serious reading comprehension issues.

Doc had just beat Phil the previous year :biggums:

[KG215]

Doc had just beat Phil the previous year :biggums:
:facepalm

Christ, arguing with you is pointless. You've got the reading comprehension and arguing skills of a 6th grader.

[dreamwarrior]

I never said anything about Bynum. And I've never said Kobe's supporting cast is some all-time great supporting cast compared to championship teams in other seasons and eras. But the continual downplay by Kobe fanboys of Kobe's supporting cast in 2009 and 2010, relative to the rest of the league in those two seasons, has gotten comical. Kobe fans try and act like he carried a pile of shit to rings while ignoring that what Kobe had backing him up was either on par with, or better than what the other best players in the league had backing them up.

I have no problem with people saying Kobe's supporting cast in direct comparison to supporting casts of other all-time greats wasn't anything special in 2009 and 2010, because it's true. I have a problem with Kobe fanboys using that as a way to try and prop up Kobe because it means they're completely and totally ignoring context and what the rest of the league looked like in 2009 and 2010.

Kobe's teams from 2008-2010, over half of those players aren't even in the league anymore, most of those done after 2011.

[HOoopCityJones]

:facepalm

Christ, arguing with you is pointless. You've got the reading comprehension and arguing skills of a 6th grader.

Because I don't entertain your bullshit ass arguments of Kobe's supporting cast being superior to the rest of the league's? No bra , I'm just ignoring that shit.

Who had a more well rounded roster aside from The Celtics, Magic and Cavs from 08-10? If you say The Lakers, I might agree with you, but the best? Just no.

[KG215]

Kobe's teams from 2008-2010, over half of those players aren't even in the league anymore, most of those done after 2011.
What does that have to do with how they stacked up against the rest of the league from 2008-2010?

[KG215]

Because I don't entertain your bullshit ass arguments of Kobe's supporting cast being superior to the rest of the league's? No bra , I'm just ignoring that shit.

Who had a more well rounded roster aside from The Celtics, Magic and Cavs from 08-10? If you say The Lakers, I might agree with you, but the best? Just no.
Comletely healthy the Celtics from 2008-2010 had the best roster in the league, period. They beat the Lakers in the Finals in 2008; got off to a ridiculous start and looked poised to repeat in 2009 before Garnett got hurt but became non-contenders once that happened; and in 2010 they took the Lakers to 7 games despite KG, Pierce, and Allen being 33, 32, and 34 years old respectively and on the very back end of their primes. They weren't the same players in 2010 that they were in 2008, especially Garnett who was never the same after his leg injury in 2009.

After that? Yes, the 2009 and 2010 Lakers supporting cast was, at the very least, on par with the LeBron's and Dwight's supporting cast in 2009 and 2010, if not better. 2009 and 2010 Gasol absolutely better than LeBron's and Dwight's second banana in 2009 and 2010.

[pastis]

for kobe: didnt win until gasol since shaq left

MJ: 1-9


and lol at kobe fans saying 09 was a bad team: ariza, bynum, odom, gasol, fisher, goat coach =D

compare this to howards magic X)

but ill give you the fact, that howards magic wouldnt even pass 1st round in the west in 09

[Soundwave]

If JR Smith could provide 16 ppg and Mozgov could give 13-15 ppg + 10 rpg a night and Thompson getting a bunch of offensive boards ... I think a 28/29-year-old Jordan could do it, but it would be tough.

The Warriors aren't the Bird Celtics or Bad Boy Pistons and I'd put Jordan on Curry straight up.

LeBron is a good defender for his size, but he's too big/slow to guard Curry straight up, but Jordan could probably cause Curry a lot of head aches and that alters everything Golden State does offensively.

Also if Kerr tried that "lets play Jordan 1-on-1 for an entire game" the Warriors would get shredded.

[Simple Jack]

If you truly believe that Kobe or Jordan would have been capable of beating a 67 win team with one of the worst supporting casts to make the finals, you are obscenely retarded. I'm convinced it has to be trolling; there is no possible way anyone here actually believes this garbage. If they were capable of winning with this shitty of a supporting cast, they would have swept the playoffs every single year they played in the league.

There isn't a single player in NBA history in which losing with this type of supporting cast would be held against them. No one would be expected to win with Tristan Thompson as their 2nd best player.

[Soundwave]

If you truly believe that Kobe or Jordan would have been capable of beating a 67 win team with one of the worst supporting casts to make the finals, you are obscenely retarded. I'm convinced it has to be trolling; there is no possible way anyone here actually believes this garbage. If they were capable of winning with this shitty of a supporting cast, they would have swept the playoffs every single year they played in the league.

There isn't a single player in NBA history in which losing with this type of supporting cast would be held against them. No one would be expected to win with Tristan Thompson as their 2nd best player.

Mozgov and JR Smith are capable players though.

35-year-old Jordan won a Finals against a 60+ win team with Pippen averaging 15 ppg on 40% shooting and Rodman averaging 3 ppg, and 8 rpg.

Like I said if JR Smith could put on his big boy pants and chip in 16 points/game or so on a decent shooting percentage I could see a prime Jordan pulling it off.

The Cavs still have the better front court IMO, Mozgov is way better than Bogut and they can't keep Thompson off the boards.

Plus Jordan can be put on Curry or Thompson defensively, which is a series changer.

If you cut the head off the snake (Curry), then the Warriors aren't nearly as indestructible. Their front court is average, their D is average and they are generally fairly soft.

[Anaximandro1]

If you truly believe that Kobe or Jordan would have been capable of beating a 67 win team with one of the worst supporting casts to make the finals, you are obscenely retarded. I'm convinced it has to be trolling; there is no possible way anyone here actually believes this garbage. If they were capable of winning with this shitty of a supporting cast, they would have swept the playoffs every single year they played in the league.

There isn't a single player in NBA history in which losing with this type of supporting cast would be held against them. No one would be expected to win with Tristan Thompson as their 2nd best player.

Don't underestimate Jordan.

NBA Finals 1993

Jordan 41.0 ppg, 8.5 rb , 6.3 as, 1.7 stl, 0.7 blk (FG% .508)

ECFR vs 1986 Celtics

Jordan 43.7 ppg, 6.3 rb, 5.7 as, 2.3 stl, 1.5 blk (FG% .505)


under the current NBA rules, he'd average 45-50 ppg against the Warriors ... it would be competitive.

[LAZERUSS]

Don't underestimate Jordan.

NBA Finals 1993

Jordan 41.0 ppg, 8.5 rb , 6.3 as, 1.7 stl, 0.7 blk (FG% .508)

ECFR vs 1986 Celtics

Jordan 43.7 ppg, 6.3 rb, 5.7 as, 2.3 stl, 1.5 blk (FG% .505)


under the current NBA rules, he'd average 45-50 ppg against the Warriors ... it would be competitive.

So, in other words, MJ would be performing at about the same level that Lebron did in game one, right?

[Soundwave]

So, in other words, MJ would be performing at about the same level that Lebron did in game one, right?

Pretty much. Except he would've hit that shot at the end of regulation and the Cavs would be up 1-0 right now.

Until the OT, I actually thought that was one of the best playoff games that LeBron has played in his life, but that was the basic "standard" big night for Jordan in the playoffs.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Both are getting this Cavs team to the Finals in the East. Easily. As could quite a few other all time greats as well. Anyone claiming they wouldn't is blatant trolling. Now, as for beating the Warriors? Kobe, possible. MJ, probable.

[DMAVS41]

Comletely healthy the Celtics from 2008-2010 had the best roster in the league, period. They beat the Lakers in the Finals in 2008; got off to a ridiculous start and looked poised to repeat in 2009 before Garnett got hurt but became non-contenders once that happened; and in 2010 they took the Lakers to 7 games despite KG, Pierce, and Allen being 33, 32, and 34 years old respectively and on the very back end of their primes. They weren't the same players in 2010 that they were in 2008, especially Garnett who was never the same after his leg injury in 2009.

After that? Yes, the 2009 and 2010 Lakers supporting cast was, at the very least, on par with the LeBron's and Dwight's supporting cast in 2009 and 2010, if not better. 2009 and 2010 Gasol absolutely better than LeBron's and Dwight's second banana in 2009 and 2010.

you forgot to mention the Perkins injury and him missing game 7.

also, the Lakers supporting cast was easily better than the Cavs those years...and to a lesser degree, but still clear...better than the Magic.

this isn't hating. it's reality.

and it means nothing. Kobe was still great and he deserves praise for his play and winning back to back titles and finals mvp's...

the only time any of this comes up is when kobe fans act like kobe piles of shit to the finals.

you literally have Kobe fans saying TT is on par with pau gasol...and lying about Odom's stats (while ignoring his rebounding/defense/versatility)

it's absurd...it's dumb.


and the other shit we haven't even brought up...was the 00,01,02 loaded rosters.

If you made Kobe the best player on those Lakers, for example, and had Shaq as part of the supporting cast. They'd rank at or near the best supporting casts in the last 30 years...

Kobe fans are avoiding that part of that study like the plague.

So in reality, Kobe's help has been all time great. If you evaluated it properly like that...he'd have 6 of the 18 best supporting casts of the last 60 finals teams according to that study.

With 00 through 02 likely all ranking at or near the top 5.

[COnDEMnED]

No. Even a prime Shaq would need a reasonably healthy Irving or some other serviceable outside threat.
You doubt the ability of a prime Shaq against the likes of a ****ing Bogut? Shaq would average 40+. Nothing against Bogut, but he isn't stopping prime Shaq from anything. That serviceable outside threat would be JR Smith in this case.