How Many All-time greats....

[HOoopCityJones]

Would get ousted by an 8th seed as the clear cut favorite? Screw the Top 10, how many players in the Top 50?

[IMObjective]

What kind of all time great would let that happen?

[LAZERUSS]

Would get ousted by an 8th seed as the clear cut favorite? Screw the Top 10, how many players in the Top 50?

Well, what's your definition of an 8th seed?

Kareem took his heavily favored Lakers down the drain in the first round of the playoffs against a 6th seed that went 40-42.

[HOoopCityJones]

Well, what's your definition of an 8th seed?

Kareem took his heavily favored Lakers down the drain in the first round of the playoffs against a 6th seed that went 40-42.

6th seed is not an 8th seed bro.

[IMObjective]

Well, what's your definition of an 8th seed?

Kareem took his heavily favored Lakers down the drain in the first round of the playoffs against a 6th seed that went 40-42.
Were injuries a factor?

[ImKobe]

how about how many players would get bashed and accused of quitting for taking the #2 seed to 7 games in the first round as a 7 seed.

[HylianNightmare]

Matchups

[CelticBaller]

dirk

[BlakFrankWhite]

How many all time greats missed the playoffs in their primes?

[LAZERUSS]

6th seed is not an 8th seed bro.

Losing to an 8th seed that goes 42-40, or losing to a 6th seed that goes 40-42. Which is more embarrassing?

[LAZERUSS]

Were injuries a factor?

Not really.

Getting outplayed by Moses was a factor, though.

[HOoopCityJones]

How many all time greats missed the playoffs in their primes?

Injured or healthy?

[Harison]

Would get ousted by an 8th seed as the clear cut favorite? Screw the Top 10, how many players in the Top 50?
Duncan from Top10, and Dirk from Top20-25.

[HOoopCityJones]

Losing to an 8th seed that goes 42-40, or losing to a 6th seed that goes 40-42. Which is more embarrassing?

8th seed is not a 6th seed burh.

[LAZERUSS]

Duncan from Top10, and Dirk from Top20-25.

:applause:

And outplayed by Goobersol in the process.

[catch24]

Dirk is one of them, but to be fair, we should point out the Warriors were not your typical 8th seed. They dealt with various injuries throughout the regular-season, and miraculously all healthy come playoff time.

You're looking at a 5/6 seed AT LEAST...without the injury bug.

[LAZERUSS]

Dirk is one of them, but to be fair, we should point out the Warriors were not your typical 8th seed. They dealt with various injuries throughout the regular-season, and miraculously all healthy come playoff time.

You're looking at a 5/6 seed AT LEAST...without the injury bug.


:applause: :applause: :applause:

I would carry that a step further...

player-for-player, the Warriors were a better team.

[Legends66NBA7]

2012 Bulls 50-16 (62 win pace)
2011 Spurs 61-21
2007 Mavericks 67-15
1999 Heat 33-17 (54 win pace)
1994 Sonics 63-19

Those were the 5 teams that lost as a 1st seed. Out of all of them, I think the 94 Sonics had to be the greatest upset. They should have won that series but the Nuggets rallied every time.

Because of the lockout, the 99 Heat weren't really a true 1st seed, just like the Knicks weren't really a true 8th seed. Missing that much time and injuries all season effected the standings.

The 07 Mavs and 11 Spurs just matched up with the wrong teams. Also, I don't think either team was a true 8th seed either as they dealt with injuries all year and slotted down to that spot. Spurs were also dealing with injuries to Duncan and Ginobili too.

The 12 Bulls lost Rose to an ACL tear in game 1 and they were clearly demoralized when it happened. I don't hold that against them.

[pastis]

Duncan from Top10, and Dirk from Top20-25.

:lol :lol gtfo top 15-18.

btw: kobe missed playoffs in his prime without daddy phil and bbc shaq

[HOoopCityJones]

:lol :lol gtfo top 15-18.

btw: kobe missed playoffs in his prime without daddy phil and bbc shaq

Healthy or injured?

[DMAVS41]

Healthy or injured?

If you want to play the "excuse" card...

Dirk was hiding an injury and he was dealing with his dad having a health crisis in the middle of the series.

The real question should be...how many 1 seed teams would get torched by the 8th seed when their best player goes for 20/11/2 51% TS while he was fronted and shaded in the post and doubled off the ball frequently on pick and rolls?

The answer? An Avery Johnson coached Mavericks team that player for player was no better than the Warriors.

[HOoopCityJones]

If you want to play the "excuse" card...

Dirk was hiding an injury and he was dealing with his dad having a health crisis in the middle of the series.

The real question should be...how many 1 seed teams would get torched by the 8th seed when their best player goes for 20/11/2 51% TS while he was fronted and shaded in the post and doubled off the ball frequently on pick and rolls?

The answer? An Avery Johnson coached Mavericks team that player for player was no better than the Warriors.

Was he now. :roll:

[DMAVS41]

Was he now. :roll:

Actually yes.

There were multiple reports the last month of the season talking about Dirk not being right physically, but he didn't want to go public.

I lived in Dallas at the time and it was well known in Mavs circles actually.

Again, we can play this "excuse card" as much as you want.

I'd rather just say Dirk was horrid in that series and he deserves a lot of blame.

But you don't do that with Kobe...you won't admit missing the playoffs in his prime wasn't a good look coming out of arguably the worst finals ever from a star player.

Why? Because you are a deranged lunatic that is clearly shook as **** about me. I thought you didn't pay attention to me?

[HOoopCityJones]

Actually yes.

There were multiple reports the last month of the season talking about Dirk not being right physically, but he didn't want to go public.

I lived in Dallas at the time and it was well known in Mavs circles actually.

Again, we can play this "excuse card" as much as you want.

I'd rather just say Dirk was horrid in that series and he deserves a lot of blame.

But you don't do that with Kobe...you won't admit missing the playoffs in his prime wasn't a good look coming out of arguably the worst finals ever from a star player.

Why? Because you are a deranged lunatic that is clearly shook as **** about me. I thought you didn't pay attention to me?


After his Team was blown up and he just came off a surgery? Not that surprising.

But losing to an 8th seed as the favorite tho..

[pastis]

Actually yes.

There were multiple reports the last month of the season talking about Dirk not being right physically, but he didn't want to go public.

I lived in Dallas at the time and it was well known in Mavs circles actually.

Again, we can play this "excuse card" as much as you want.

I'd rather just say Dirk was horrid in that series and he deserves a lot of blame.

But you don't do that with Kobe...you won't admit missing the playoffs in his prime wasn't a good look coming out of arguably the worst finals ever from a star player.


Why? Because you are a deranged lunatic that is clearly shook as **** about me. I thought you didn't pay attention to me?

:applause: :applause:

[Eric Cartman]

Dirk Duncan Gary Payton Alonzo Mourning

[DMAVS41]

After his Team was blown up and he just came off a surgery? Not that surprising.

So you expected Kobe to have such a terrible finals in 04?

You expected him to miss the playoffs in 05?

You expected him to blow a 3-1 series lead in 06?

You expected him to allow the biggest finals comeback in 08 at home?

You expected him to lose by 39 in the biggest game of the year?

You expected him to get swept in 2011?


Seems like a rather low bar for Kobe. I list all these because Kobe fans always have an excuse, often valid mind you, but never listen to those same excuses/reasons for other players.

Hence the double standard.

[HOoopCityJones]

Again, with the deflections.

How we go from talking about him missing PO in 05 to discussing 04? Which would've been a sweep if not for Kobe.

This is why you get ignored.

[pastis]

Again, with the deflections.

How we go from talking about him missing PO in 05 to discussing 04? Which would've been a sweep if not for Kobe.

This is why you get ignored.

haha getting ethered once again

[HOoopCityJones]

haha getting ethered once again

Is this your alt or something? :oldlol:

[AirFederer]

That`s brutal :oldlol:


So you expected Kobe to have such a terrible finals in 04?

You expected him to miss the playoffs in 05?

You expected him to blow a 3-1 series lead in 06?

You expected him to allow the biggest finals comeback in 08 at home?

You expected him to lose by 39 in the biggest game of the year?

You expected him to get swept in 2011?


Seems like a rather low bar for Kobe. I list all these because Kobe fans always have an excuse, often valid mind you, but never listen to those same excuses/reasons for other players.

Hence the double standard.

[HOoopCityJones]

That`s brutal :oldlol:

How so? :biggums:

Dirk has way more black marks on his career than Kobe has. This ni99a barley won a Finals because Lebron decided not to show up for some reason. Including getting his ass handed to him by an 8th seed as the favorite.

Lebron plays like himself and that boy is still Ringless with a Goat run to The Finals.

[DMAVS41]

How so? :biggums:

Dirk has way more black marks on his career than Kobe has. This ni99a barley won a Finals because Lebron decided not to show up for some reason. Including getting his ass handed to him by an 8th seed as the favorite.

Lebron plays like himself and that boy is still Ringless with a Goat run to The Finals.

and we could create hypothetical situations down the line...

if the 02 kings series wasn't rigged, if Kobe didn't force his way to the Lakers to piggyback on peak Shaq, if the Grizzlies didn't gift the Lakers Pau...etc.

It's stupid and lazy.

You are shook...

Keep making threads though...it's hilarious.

This all started with you saying the following:

"Dirk isn't even a special player really"

And you said that, not because it was relevant, but because you were getting your ass handed to you in a debate.

[DMAVS41]

Again, with the deflections.

How we go from talking about him missing PO in 05 to discussing 04? Which would've been a sweep if not for Kobe.

This is why you get ignored.

It isn't a deflection. I can talk about anything I want. You have chosen to talk about things...I responded.

Now I'm asking why having two of the worst finals ever by superstars in NBA history within a 5 year stretch (00 and 04), running Shaq out, and then turning around and missing the playoffs aren't black marks?

You came up with some reasons/excuses...some I agree with...some I don't.

But why do you then think others shouldn't provide reasons/excuses? I don't even like to for Dirk in 07 because he was really bad despite terrible circumstances. I can just say...yea he was really bad.

You? You can't even do that. Why? Because your are a borderline crazy person it seems.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Only Dirk, because he was soft. He relied heavily on other members of his team to defend (being an average at best defensive player at his most effort) rebound, and distribute. He does less on the basketball court than many of his superstar peers.

He's actually very one dimensional when you think about it. Duncan, KG, LeBron, Durant, Kobe, Wade, and hell even guys like Curry, Westbrook, and Harden are all better basketball players. They do more than just score, and shoot. They assist, rebound, facilitate, and play defense.

MVP Dirk got locked up, and shut down without doubles by Stephen Jackson ALONE. One of the most pathetic MVPs, and playoff performances from an "MVP" that I've ever, or probably will ever see

[DMAVS41]

Only Dirk, because he was soft. He relied heavily on other members of his team to defend (being an average at best defensive player at his most effort) rebound, and distribute. He does less on the basketball court than many of his superstar peers.

He's actually very one dimensional when you think about it. Duncan, KG, LeBron, Durant, Kobe, Wade, and hell even guys like Curry, Westbrook, and Harden are all better basketball players. They do more than just score, and shoot. They assist, rebound, facilitate, and play defense.

MVP Dirk got locked up, and shut down without doubles by Stephen Jackson ALONE. One of the most pathetic MVPs, and playoff performances from an "MVP" that I've ever, or probably will ever see

Some of this is spot on as Dirk really played a shit series against the Warriors.

Some is total bs as well. They absolutely did not "never double" Dirk in the post. That is simply false...Dirk saw an absurd amount of attention by a group of defenders that were the perfect storm for him and the Mavs.

Also, we have to stop acting like he played the worst series ever. His game 6 was absymal, but given the circumstances...I understand it. Even with that game 6 that was over 5 minutes into the 3rd...Dirk was a 20/11/2 51% TS player in that series and won game 5 down the stretch all by himself.

Also, those Warriors were a much better team than the average 8th seed. Their entire team was hurt all year pretty much and they made some trades...and still won 42 games. That team was healthy in the playoffs and I'd guess around a 50 win team if right...maybe more.

Baron Davis was a monster that year. He led the league in offensive RAPM that season and was 7th overall iirc.

Also, Avery Johnson is an absolutely dreadful head coach and hurt us badly in that series.

Lastly...it's clearly no the worst series ever by a MVP. Rose's ECF in 2011 was clearly a worse series. Not only just in overall play, but because his team actually had chances to win that series. The Mavs in 07 got blown out of the water most of the time. Clearly a worse series...I've never seen a player get shut down and wet the bed so badly in close games than I have from Rose in 11.

Just awful

[SamuraiSWISH]

Lastly...it's clearly no the worst series ever by a MVP. Rose's ECF in 2011 was clearly a worse series. Not only just in overall play, but because his team actually had chances to win that series. The Mavs in 07 got blown out of the water most of the time. Clearly a worse series...I've never seen a player get shut down and wet the bed so badly in close games than I have from Rose in 11.

Just awful
The youngest MVP ever (22) in the Conference Finals v.s. an all-time great, stacked Heat team? Being defended by DPOY caliber, freak athlete and Top 10 player ever in LeBron for large stretches? A team that would go to 4x Finals, winning 2 of them? At one point went on a 20+ game winning streak, and won over 60 games?

It isn't NEAR as bad as getting shut down by undrafted Stephen Jackson in your prime, and losing in the first round as a 60+ win team to an 8th seed. A team they got beat the very next round, and had no all-time great or all-time great defender on their roster.

Dirk's was much worse. Context tells us to anyone without a bias. Keep trying though.

[HOoopCityJones]

Only Dirk, because he was soft. He relied heavily on other members of his team to defend (being an average at best defensive player at his most effort) rebound, and distribute. He does less on the basketball court than many of his superstar peers.

He's actually very one dimensional when you think about it. Duncan, KG, LeBron, Durant, Kobe, Wade, and hell even guys like Curry, Westbrook, and Harden are all better basketball players. They do more than just score, and shoot. They assist, rebound, facilitate, and play defense.

MVP Dirk got locked up, and shut down without doubles by Stephen Jackson ALONE. One of the most pathetic MVPs, and playoff performances from an "MVP" that I've ever, or probably will ever see


:applause: Wouldn't expect anything less from a Coach. You been on a roll today tho tbh

[SamuraiSWISH]

:applause: Wouldn't expect anything less from a Coach. You been on a roll today tho tbh
You being facetious, bro? I coached AAU IL Speed, that dude who made that post was lying through his teeth. Pretty sure it was an alt of meyhaM24. Creep is obsessed with me.

Check out another thread where DMAVS41 is trying to say 22 year old Rose's 2011 ECF being guarded by DPOY caliber LeBron was worse MVP performance than prime Dirk's utterly embarassing 2007 1st round guarded by Stephen Jackson.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[DMAVS41]

The youngest MVP ever (22) in the Conference Finals v.s. an all-time great, stacked Heat team? Being defended by DPOY caliber, freak athlete and Top 10 player ever in LeBron for large stretches? A team that would go to 4x Finals, winning 2 of them? At one point went on a 20+ game winning streak, and won over 60 games?

It isn't NEAR as bad as getting shut down by undrafted Stephen Jackson in your prime, and losing in the first round as a 60+ win team to an 8th seed. A team they got beat the very next round, and had no all-time great or all-time great defender on their roster.

Dirk's was much worse. Context tells us to anyone without a bias. Keep trying though.

Age has nothing to do with it. Rose was MVP and he played worse than Dirk. Simple as that.

20/11/2 51% TS

vs.

23/4/7 44% TS

That doesn't even do it justice. The ball hogging, the blown ft's late, 20% 4th qtr shooting, horrible game ending turnovers.

I've never seen a MVP play that poorly in a series before. Ever. Even with more difficult circumstances...doesn't make up for just a beyond dreadful series.

And please stop being biased...the Warriors were a terrible matchup for Dirk and the Mavs. You see Jackson and Barnes and those guys and think it's not a terrible matchup, but it was. That 07 Mavs team would have done much better against a team like the 11 Heat actually. Matchups man...it makes everything in the playoffs.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Age has nothing to do with it. Rose was MVP and he played worse than Dirk. Simple as that.
Age has nothing to do with it? 3rd season v.s. being at peak / prime? You give LeBron a pass for years for his horrendous performance in the 2007 Finals at the same age Rose was.

Peak Dirk 2007 Reg:
25 ppg, 9 rpg, 3 apg on 50% FG

22 yo Rose 2011 Reg:
25 ppg, 4 rpg, 8 apg on 45% FG

Peak Dirk 2007 Playoffs:
20 ppg, 11 rpg, 2 apg on 38% FG defended by smaller Stephen Jackson, Lost 1st Round

22 yo Rose 2011 Playoffs:
27 ppg, 4 rpg, 8 apg on 40% FG defended by larger LeBron James, Lost ECF

Yes ... clearly Dirk was so much better. Context considering. Losing to an 8th seed in the 1st round, at your peak, defended by undrafted Stephen Jackson

v.s.

Losing to an all-time great 2x champ stacked Heat team, at 22 years old, defended by top ten player ever, and DPOY caliber LeBron James.

Dirk's 2007 playoffs (one round) was clearly worse than Rose's 2011 playoffs.

[HOoopCityJones]

You being facetious, bro? I coached AAU IL Speed, that dude who made that post was lying through his teeth. Pretty sure it was an alt of meyhaM24. Creep is obsessed with me.

Check out another thread where DMAVS41 is trying to say 22 year old Rose's 2011 ECF being guarded by DPOY caliber LeBron was worse MVP performance than prime Dirk's utterly embarassing 2007 1st round guarded by Stephen Jackson.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Nah, just giving you your props. :cheers:


And yea, DMAVS says a lot of shit that's cringe worhty.

[DMAVS41]

Age has nothing to do with it? 3rd season v.s. being at peak / prime? You give LeBron a pass for years for his horrendous performance in the 2007 Finals at the same age Rose was.

Peak Dirk 2007 Reg:
25 ppg, 9 rpg, 3 apg on 50% FG

22 yo Rose 2011 Reg:
25 ppg, 4 rpg, 8 apg on 45% FG

Peak Dirk 2007 Playoffs:
20 ppg, 11 rpg, 2 apg on 38% FG defended by smaller Stephen Jackson, Lost 1st Round

22 yo Rose 2011 Playoffs:
27 ppg, 4 rpg, 8 apg on 40% FG defended by larger LeBron James, Lost ECF

Yes ... clearly Dirk was so much better. Context considering. Losing to an 8th seed in the 1st round, at your peak, defended by undrafted Stephen Jackson

v.s.

Losing to an all-time great 2x champ stacked Heat team, at 22 years old, defended by top ten player ever, and DPOY caliber LeBron James.

Dirk's 2007 playoffs (one round) was clearly worse than Rose's 2011 playoffs.


Peak Dirk wasn't 2007 though. That is one of many flaws here.

11 Rose was absolutely his peak.

It doesn't matter the round...try this on for size...Rose has never beaten a team in the playoffs close to as good as the 07 Warriors were.

Again...you are artificially propping Rose for age (again...that wasn't the distinction you made) and for opponent.

The 07 Mavs would have gladly played the 11 Heat instead of the Warriors. You aren't getting that...not sure why.

Do you notice how you only want context used for Rose here? Do you see that? That you want to talk about all that shit and none of it with Dirk? And go as far as to just make shit up about how Dirk was never doubled even though that simply is false?

Even saying all that...you'll see I don't like to defend Dirk's series. I do it only when I have to because of morons like you that make shit up.

Rose fans are very similar to Kobe fans...they always want the player excused for playing like shit. They can't own it.

And yea, I totally agree the circumstances were harder on Rose. I'd say Rose more than evens that out by shooting 7% worse TS% and having multiple horrid chokes down the stretch of close games.

Just me though...

[IllegalD]

Black marks in Dirk's career:

1) Unable to win with 2004 Superteam of 5 Allstar Level Players (Dirk, Nash, Finley, Antawn Jamison, Antoine Walker)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/76/85/f3/7685f3e666c950044b1514b86268a25b.jpg

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/83/files/2014/08/Screen-Shot-2014-08-06-at-11.17.43-AM.png

2) Choking 13 point lead, 6 minutes away from being up 3-0 in the 2006 finals, missing game-tying FT at the end. (choking away 2006 finals as a whole)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOkHFqiuV3c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l50IKDVpDiM

3) Biggest upset in NBA Playoffs History, 67 win Mavs lose to 8th seed Warriors.

http://s1.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/7-warriors-mavericks-2007-biggest-nba-playoff-upsets.jpg

[Hey Yo]

The youngest MVP ever (22) in the Conference Finals v.s. an all-time great, stacked Heat team? Being defended by DPOY caliber, freak athlete and Top 10 player ever in LeBron for large stretches? A team that would go to 4x Finals, winning 2 of them? At one point went on a 20+ game winning streak, and won over 60 games?

It isn't NEAR as bad as getting shut down by undrafted Stephen Jackson in your prime, and losing in the first round as a 60+ win team to an 8th seed. A team they got beat the very next round, and had no all-time great or all-time great defender on their roster.

Dirk's was much worse. Context tells us to anyone without a bias. Keep trying though.
The Bulls were probably the favorites going into that ECF series (not sure though) due to the sweep they handed the Heat during the regular season.

By no means did anyone think Miami would win that series the way they did or even at all considering the Bulls had HCA and the MVP

[SamuraiSWISH]

The Bulls were probably the favorites going into that ECF series (not sure though) due to the sweep they handed the Heat during the regular season.

By no means did anyone think Miami would win that series the way they did or even at all considering the Bulls had HCA and the MVP
All based on Chicago's better regular season record vs an at the time dysfunctional, slumping Miami team. The expectations weren't based on talent disparity which was cleanly in the Heat's favor.

Are you seriously insinuating the 2011 Heat beating the 2011 Bulls was a bigger upset than the 8th seed 2007 Warriors beating the 60+ win MVP led 2007 Mavericks?

:applause:

[DMAVS41]

All based on Chicago's better regular season record vs an at the time dysfunctional, slumping Miami team. The expectations weren't based on talent disparity which was cleanly in the Heat's favor.

Are you seriously insinuating the 2011 Heat beating the 2011 Bulls was a bigger upset than the 8th seed 2007 Warriors beating the 60+ win MVP led 2007 Mavericks?

:applause:

You could write the exact same paragraph about the 07 Mavs and 07 Warriors. I won't say it was clearly in the Warriors favor or anything, but you get the point. How you are so oblivious to this point is beyond me.

Of course the Mavs vs. Warriors was an upset and the Heat should have been favored, I actually think they were....

That wasn't the argument. You said it was the worst you've seen a MVP play. And I think Rose was worse.

Now, if you want to say that given "x, y, and z"...then I'll listen, but I just think you have to do it both ways.

You talk about Rose's age...talk about Dirk not being fully healthy (I'll try to link and old hollinger article talking about Dirk not looking right the last month of the season)

You talk about competition...talk about the Warriors being a nightmare matchup.

Talk about Dirk's mental state with his dad going through what he was.

But you are either MVP or you aren't. You are either a NBA player or you aren't. The reason it's worse for Rose on his career, at least, is that...that was his best. That was the best thing he's done. That's it.

He's never beaten a real team in the playoffs before. All we've seen of him in the playoffs is horrible shooting and getting drubbed by real teams while doing nothing of note.

With Dirk, 07 was absolutely not the peak of his career. It's the worst of his prime actually.

So if we are talking about black marks on careers, Dirk actually has done shit...lots of shit...outside of that. Rose's defining playoff series is an epic failure.

There is a difference when looking at it that way.

[JohnFreeman]

That Warriors team was pretty good

[Springsteen]

How many all time greats missed the playoffs in their primes?

Durant?

[LAZERUSS]

Kareem missed two right in the middle of his prime.