Gasol, Bynum, Odom ....

[HOoopCityJones]

Are superstars now?

This Kobe hate is getting ridiculous.


This. But you're never going to see Griff (or any other hardcore Kobe fanboy who uses this same tired excuse all the damn time) admit or even acknowledge that, relative to the rest of the league in 2009 and 2010, Kobe had the best second option of superstars on contenders, and arguably had the best overall supporting cast in relation to other contenders.

Post the next best players on that Team after Gasol, Odom, Bynum. Peep the drop off.

[1~Gibson~1]

They were more stacked than any other team during their championship runs. Kobe could never win as an underdog. His supporting cast did a good job of covering his ass whenever he needed.

[HOoopCityJones]

They were more stacked than any other team during their championship runs. Kobe could never win as an underdog. His supporting cast did a good job of covering his ass whenever he needed.

You don't even believe this.

[Spaulding]

Kobe had a GOAT coach.

[HOoopCityJones]

Kobe had a GOAT coach.

Duncan's entire career is thrown out in that case then.

[Spaulding]

Duncan's entire career is thrown out in that case then.

Duncan played with better players than Kobe. Excluding Shaq.

[branslowski]

They were more stacked than any other team during their championship runs. Kobe could never win as an underdog. His supporting cast did a good job of covering his ass whenever he needed.

Bynum 6ppg 4reb during Finals
Odom 8ppg during playoff run
Artest 11ppg 41%fg during playoffs

Only Gasol was solid with his amazing Kobe carrying numbers of 18ppg....Meanwhile Kobe goes 29-5-5, 30-5-5 and got his ass carried.

Yawl not to bright:coleman:

[Braincells]

I don't see it.

Bynum was injured throughout those runs.

Odom was inconsistent.

Bench was ranked among the lowest in scoring.

Only Gasol and Kobe were consistently producing.

They were a good cast, but nowhere near the level of the Heat or Spurs. Give Kobe some semblance of a team and he'll win a ring with them.

[BlakFrankWhite]

Ofcourse they were great supporting cast..Lakers FO spent insane money on that team

Just a matter of time before OP starts attacking Shaq's resume to prop up Kobe

[HOoopCityJones]

Ofcourse they were great supporting cast..Lakers FO spent insane money on that team

Just a matter of time before OP starts attacking Shaq's resume to prop up Kobe

I have Shaq ahead of Kobe All-time though. :lol

Stay moted.

[DMAVS41]

Bynum 6ppg 4reb during Finals
Odom 8ppg during playoff run
Artest 11ppg 41%fg during playoffs

Only Gasol was solid with his amazing Kobe carrying numbers of 18ppg....Meanwhile Kobe goes 29-5-5, 30-5-5 and got his ass carried.

Yawl not to bright:coleman:

I'm not joining this thread because it's old hat, but please don't post lies.

Odom averaged 12.3 and 9.7 points in the 09 and 10 title runs.

And again...the new 538 study ranks those teams quite well in terms of supporting cast help.

Think for a second here Kobe fans...do you think it's everyone else and objective measures that are biased...or do you think it's more likely that your love for Kobe gets in the way of your opinions?

[HOoopCityJones]

I'm not joining this thread because it's old hat, but please don't post lies.

Odom averaged 12.3 and 9.7 points in the 09 and 10 title runs.

And again...the new 538 study ranks those teams quite well in terms of supporting cast help.

Think for a second here Kobe fans...do you think it's everyone else and objective measures that are biased...or do you think it's more likely that your love for Kobe gets in the way of your opinions?

Dirk lost to an 8th seed as the favorite and has pitiful rebounding numbers for a Center. Get lost.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

None of those guys are "superstars." Pau is a future HOFer though.

[Legends66NBA7]

"Kobe had the best second option of superstars on contenders"

Misleading OP.

He didn't call any of those 3 a superstar. He called Kobe a superstar.

[HOoopCityJones]

"Kobe had the best second option of superstars on contenders"

Misleading OP.

He didn't call any of those 3 a superstar. He called Kobe a superstar.

:cheers:

This entire forum is made up of hyperbole fulled arguments. They can take what they dish out.

[imnew09]

they were good role players( just like TT, Mosgov) and fit the triangle offense.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'm not joining this thread because it's old hat, but please don't post lies.

Odom averaged 12.3 and 9.7 points in the 09 and 10 title runs.

And again...the new 538 study ranks those teams quite well in terms of supporting cast help.

Think for a second here Kobe fans...do you think it's everyone else and objective measures that are biased...or do you think it's more likely that your love for Kobe gets in the way of your opinions?

Four Duncan teams made the Finals with superior supporting casts than the 09 and 10 Lakers per that study. :confusedshrug:

[HOoopCityJones]

Four Duncan teams made the Finals with superior supporting casts than the 09 and 10 Lakers per that study. :confusedshrug:

Deflection incoming.

[Legends66NBA7]

^Who were the contenders in 09 that had superstars ?

Cavaliers, Lakers, Magic, and Nuggets ? I didn't put the C's because without Garnett they weren't contending.

Cavs - Mo Williams (LeBron)
Magic - Rashard Lewis (Dwight)
Nuggets - Chauncey Billups (Melo)
Lakers - Pau Gasol (Kobe)

Pau was a legit 20/10 threat during that year and his post play and length is always a problem to counter. Played really well in the playoffs too. Thought he could have had more touches.

Chauncey was huge for the Nuggets turnaround. Some I've seen even say he was the best player for them. Make big shots, rebound, and pass. I would say it's between him and Pau, probably go with Pau.

Rashard was a bomber from 3, but didn't do much else outside from scoring. Same with Mo Williams but he sucked in the playoffs.

[HOoopCityJones]

^Who were the contenders in 09 that had superstars ?

Cavaliers, Lakers, Magic, and Nuggets ? I didn't put the C's because without Garnett they weren't contending.

Cavs - Mo Williams (LeBron)
Magic - Rashard Lewis (Dwight)
Nuggets - Chauncey Billups (Melo)
Lakers - Pau Gasol (Kobe)

Pau was a legit 20/10 threat during that year and his post play and length is always a problem to counter. Played really well in the playoffs too. Thought he could have had more touches.

Chauncey was huge for the Nuggets turnaround. Some I've seen even say he was the best player for them. Make big shots, rebound, and pass. I would say it's between him and Pau, probably go with Pau.

Rashard was a bomber from 3, but didn't do much else outside from scoring. Same with Mo Williams but he sucked in the playoffs.

DWill and Boozer were considered stars during that time too.

[DMAVS41]

Four Duncan teams made the Finals with superior supporting casts than the 09 and 10 Lakers per that study. :confusedshrug:

And?

Do you see Duncan fans acting like he didn't have quality help in 05 and 07?

I'm assuming two of those four were 13 and 14...I'd say Duncan was probably the best player in 13, but Leonard was the best player in 14.

So what is the point of this? That Duncan had great help and coaching many times in his career...especially late? Yep...totally agree.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And?

So what does that say about Duncan's supporting casts in comparison to 2008-2010 Kobe according to your study?

[DMAVS41]

So what does that say about Duncan's supporting casts in comparison to 2008-2010 Kobe according to your study?

That he had great help often in his career....especially late.

Read above.

Do you not see the difference? You literally have Kobe fans claiming the 09/10 Lakers were as bad as these current Cavs.

Do you see Duncan fans claiming the 07 and 05 Spurs were as bad as these Cavs?

If you did...you'd have a point.

As it stands...you have no point whatsoever.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

That he had great help often in his career....especially late.

Did he have greater help than 2008-2010 Kobe for the majority of his trips to the Finals?

[DMAVS41]

Did he have greater help than 2008-2010 Kobe for the majority of his trips to the Finals?

Definitely in 05, 13, and 14 imo.

I'm not quite sure about 07...

With the caveat that in the 13 finals Duncan didn't get great help...Parker was beyond bad that series.

[NBASTATMAN]

Are superstars now?

This Kobe hate is getting ridiculous.



Post the next best players on that Team after Gasol, Odom, Bynum. Peep the drop off.


Artest was always considered a good player and great defender.. As soon as he gets the Lakers he scuked..

I will remind you that WITHOUT BYNUM AND KOBE THE LAKERS DOMINATED FOR A SMALL STRETCH... :rockon:

[HOoopCityJones]

Artest was always considered a good player and great defender.. As soon as he gets the Lakers he scuked..

I will remind you that WITHOUT BYNUM AND KOBE THE LAKERS DOMINATED FOR A SMALL STRETCH... :rockon:

Artest was offensively challenged by time he came to the Lakers. That's why the entire organization if not the league was legit surprised when he made a contribution.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Definitely in 05, 13, and 14 imo.

I'm not quite sure about 07...

Why aren't you sure?

The average 2008-2010 teammate rating for Kobe was 3.8.

For 2007 Duncan it was 5.0.

Isn't 5.0 larger than 3.8?

[KG215]

Are superstars now?

This Kobe hate is getting ridiculous.



Post the next best players on that Team after Gasol, Odom, Bynum. Peep the drop off.
Where did I call any of those three players superstars?

[HOoopCityJones]

Why aren't you sure?

The average 2008-2010 teammate rating for Kobe was 3.8.

For 2007 Duncan it was 5.0.

Isn't 5.0 larger than 3.8?

Don't you see the pattern?

He's never sure unless the metrics completely work against Kobe. :roll:


Exposing this fraud.

[DMAVS41]

Why aren't you sure?

The average 2008-2010 teammate rating for Kobe was 3.8.

For 2007 Duncan it was 5.0.

Isn't 5.0 larger than 3.8?

I thought you meant looking at each your individually. And I'm not completely married to those numbers either....like you are trying to imply. I think it's just more evidence that already lines up with what we know....good to see data so people like you can't claim nonsense.

It's a guide...not a firm...have to take it as gospel...data.

I think 07 vs 10, for example is absolutely worth looking at.

I don't think that is silly to look at.

I do think it's silly to claim the 09 Lakers were on par with the 07 and 15 Cavs.

Come on...keep up. This shit should be obvious.

[DMAVS41]

Don't you see the pattern?

He's never sure unless the metrics completely work against Kobe. :roll:


Exposing this fraud.

Simply false.

I've said, multiple times, that I don't think it's the end all be all.

But is it really good for?

Exposing clowns like you that want to claim Kobe had no help in 09/10 and compare those teams to the 07/15 Cavs.

Having a debate about the 07 Spurs vs the 10 Lakers in terms of supporting casts and coaching would be an interesting debate.

I literally just opened that site up and find that they are only a few spots away from each other. Seems like a reasonable starting point.

:confusedshrug:

[HOoopCityJones]

Where did I call any of those three players superstars?

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldxzf3j6eN1qb58xpo1_500.gif

[KG215]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldxzf3j6eN1qb58xpo1_500.gif
Funny thing is, in the thread which this thread stemmed from, I never even mentioned Bynum in any of my posts in that thread. Yet you start a thread quoting my posts, and title it "Gasol, Bynum, Odom Are Superstars now?"

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Simply false.

I've said, multiple times, that I don't think it's the end all be all.

But is it really good for?

Exposing clowns like you that want to claim Kobe had no help in 09/10 and compare those teams to the 07/15 Cavs.

Having a debate about the 07 Spurs vs the 10 Lakers in terms of supporting casts and coaching would be an interesting debate.

I literally just opened that site up and find that they are only a few spots away from each other. Seems like a reasonable starting point.

:confusedshrug:

I never said they were similar to the 07 or 15 Cavs or he had "no help". Who did? Sounds like you are moving the goalposts once again.

I've maintained his support has been about as good as other legends yet for some reason we hear more about how "stacked" his teams were more than any other player.

Duncan for example made the Finals the majority of the time on the backs of superior supporting casts yet we rarely hear about how "stacked' his teams were. :confusedshrug:

[1~Gibson~1]

Bynum 6ppg 4reb during Finals
Odom 8ppg during playoff run
Artest 11ppg 41%fg during playoffs

Only Gasol was solid with his amazing Kobe carrying numbers of 18ppg....Meanwhile Kobe goes 29-5-5, 30-5-5 and got his ass carried.

Yawl not to bright:coleman:Does defense not count for anything?

Kobe's supporting cast was the best "2-way" supporting cast in the league. Ron Artest didnt give you much offense (10-15ppg) but he also locked people down.... which you can then add another ~7 points to his total efficiency.

Same can be said about Bynum, and Pau (when playing PF).
So if you combine the total defense with the fact that Kobe is a scoring machine you come away with a super stacked roster that masked any shortcomings Kobe had to deal with.

[HOoopCityJones]

Funny thing is, in the thread which this thread stemmed from, I never even mentioned Bynum in any of my posts in that thread. Yet you start a thread quoting my posts, and title it "Gasol, Bynum, Odom Are Superstars now?"

It is funny, isn't it? :cheers:

[HOoopCityJones]

I never said they were similar to the 07 or 15 Cavs or he had "no help". Who did? Sounds like you are moving the goalposts once again.

I've maintained his support has been about as good as other legends yet for some reason we hear more about how "stacked" his teams were more than any other player.

Duncan for example made the Finals the majority of the time on the backs of superior supporting casts yet we rarely hear about how "stacked' his teams were. :confusedshrug:

You gotta give it to the kid tho, GOAT deflector. :applause:

[DMAVS41]

I never said they were similar to the 07 or 15 Cavs or he had "no help". Who did? Sounds like you are moving the goalposts once again.

I've maintained his support has been about as good as other legends yet for some reason we hear more about how "stacked" his teams were more than any other player.

Duncan for example made the Finals the majority of the time on the backs of superior supporting casts yet we rarely hear about how "stacked' his teams were. :confusedshrug:

What are you talking about? Plenty of Kobe fans have been claiming he'd win the title with this cavs team.

We don't hear about Duncan's teams so much because his fans don't base his greatness on rings as much as you guys do with Kobe.

You are literally making my point for me.

Also, you guys absolutely diminish his supporting casts in 09 and 10 frequently....at least just own that.

Also, Kobe gets the shit you are talking about more for the Shaq years...not 08-10. When Kobe was part of the supporting cast....

If you can't see the difference. I give up.

This is what you Kobe fans don't get. Other people don't think just "winning a ring" makes one player automatically better than the other. It's about their level of play and impact.

[KG215]

It is funny, isn't it? :cheers:
:oldlol:

Haha if you're just having fun with it, then it's cool. It's just a message board. No need getting mad about it.

[DMAVS41]

You gotta give it to the kid tho, GOAT deflector. :applause:

I'm not deflecting.

His last post literally makes my entire point for me on Kobe fans.

The reason it's different is that no other fan base pulls the "x number of rings" argument so frequently when debating players.

And please stop, Kobe stans, acting like you don't diminish the 09 and 10 Lakers supporting cast.

You also diminish the 04 supporting cast, but guess what...I don't agree with the 538 thing there. Not only do I think the Pistons were better than the Lakers, but I think Shaq was better than Kobe.

LOL

But that never was the point. It was never...oh my god...how could the Lakers lose in 04. It was...oh my god...how could kobe wet the bed so badly in the finals.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What are you talking about? Plenty of Kobe fans have been claiming he'd win the title with this warriors team.

We don't hear about Duncan's teams so much because his fans don't base his greatness on rings as much as you guys do with Kobe.

You are literally making my point for me.

Also, you guys absolutely diminish his supporting casts in 09 and 10 frequently....at least just own that.

Also, Kobe gets the shit you are talking about more for the Shaq years...not 08-10. When Kobe was part of the supporting cast....

If you can't see the difference. I give up.

This is what you Kobe fans don't get. Other people don't think just "winning a ring" makes one player automatically better than the other. It's about their level of play and impact.


Duncan's entire claim to the title of the greatest PF of all time over Karl Malone, Charles Barkley and Kevin Garnett relies on rings more so than any other player.

Malone has more win shares.
They all beat him in career VORP.
Barkley beats him in Box +/- and PER.


You are so obtuse. Its painful.

[1~Gibson~1]

You don't even believe this.Not only was his team more stacked than any other team*, but they beat up on a Houston Rockets team without their two best players :oldlol:

Good win against the 2009 Denver Nuggets though. I will give them that :applause:

*his team was more stacked in respect to the other teams in the league, AT THAT TIME. In 2015, his "stacked" team would not suffice because the cap is steadily increasing and teams are finding ways to get around that and hoard loads of talented players at a time.

[HOoopCityJones]

:oldlol:

Haha if you're just having fun with it, then it's cool. It's just a message board. No need getting mad about it.

As soon as I read Kobe and Lebron were fringe Top 10 players, I was done taking this place seriously.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan's entire claim to the title of the greatest PF of all time over Karl Malone, Charles Barkley and Kevin Garnett relies on rings more so than any other player.

You are so obtuse. Its painful.

No it doesn't.

The winning...the rings, the over 50 every season...etc. That matters, but it sure isn't his entire claim.

Are you ****ing serious? People were calling him the GOAT pf back as early as 02 iirc.

He's ranked over those guys because he was a ****ing better basketball player than they were and he won a shit ton given his circumstances.

[dreamwarrior]

Bynum had zero impact during the finals in '08 and '09. In '10 he got injured and had minutes limited, pretty much useless in game 7. They shot 30% in that game 7 and still won because of Kobe's 2 clutch FTs at the end of the game.

and Odom wasn't utilized much in the finals. Derek Fisher was big as a role player and Metta was super aggressive (though super inefficient too).

[T_L_P]

Duncan's entire claim to the title of the greatest PF of all time over Karl Malone, Charles Barkley and Kevin Garnett relies on rings more so than any other player.

You are so obtuse. Its painful.

Or that he was a better player than all of them?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No it doesn't.

The winning...the rings, the over 50 every season...etc. That matters, but it sure isn't his entire claim.

Are you ****ing serious? People were calling him the GOAT pf back as early as 02 iirc.

He's ranked over those guys because he was a ****ing better basketball player than they were and he won a shit ton given his circumstances.

Malone has more win shares.
They all beat him in career VORP.
Barkley beats him in career Box +/-, win shares per minute and PER.

:confusedshrug:

[clipps]

Insane length and size. Bynum was the 2nd biggest dude in the league besides Shaq (bigger than Dwight, and more skilled). He was healthy in the playoffs during the back to back runs. Pau was a center that was skilled enough to play PF and no other team had enough size to contain that tandem. And then you have Lamar who even though was the 6 man, should have been an all-star. When Phil left, no one was able to control Bynum's attitude, and Pau and Odom became older and shells of their former selves. That's what happens when players get old. Paul and Lamar happened to be at the end of their primes when the Lakers won their 2 Championships.

Not taking anything away from Kobe either, he was the best player in the league those 2 seasons and should have had 2 MVP's.

[HOoopCityJones]

Malone has more win shares.
They all beat him in career VORP.
Barkley beats him in career Box +/- and PER.

:confusedshrug:

Metrics the end all be all doe.

[1~Gibson~1]

Bynum had zero impact during the finals in '08 and '09. In '10 he got injured and had minutes limited, pretty much useless in game 7. They shot 30% in that game 7 and still won because of Kobe's 2 clutch FTs at the end of the game.

and Odom wasn't utilized much in the finals. Derek Fisher was big as a role player and Metta was super aggressive (though super inefficient too).Andrew Bynum was never an offensive force but his defense and rebounding helps THE TEAM a lot more than the stats will show.

In the 2010 NBA Finals, Kobe's supporting cast saved his ass bigtime while shooting 6-24 from the field.

Pau and Bynum combined for 13 offensive rebounds, and after the game head coach Phil Jackson called Ron Artest MVP of the game.

:roll::roll::roll:

Kobe wasnt carried though :sleeping.

[kennethgriffin]

gasol = 90th all time on bbr

odom = 0 allstar games ( 6th man )

bynum = 6ppg


this is legendary help?

[tpols]

Andrew Bynum was never an offensive force but his defense and rebounding helps THE TEAM a lot more than the stats will show.

In the 2010 NBA Finals, Kobe's supporting cast saved his ass bigtime while shooting 6-24 from the field.

Pau and Bynum combined for 13 offensive rebounds, and after the game head coach Phil Jackson called Ron Artest MVP of the game.

:roll::roll::roll:

Kobe wasnt carried though :sleeping.
Dude.. every player has had that happen to them for some of their titles except maybe jordan.

You can compare Kobe 2010 Finals to Lebron 2013 Finals



Lebron is one made shot away from 1-6.

Lebron went from a 30+ppg scorer in the 13 ECF's to a 23 or so ppg scorer through like the first 6 games of the 2013 Finals on way lower efficiency


Kobe through the first 6 games of the 2010 Finals was at like 30/6/6 on 56 or 57 TS..

So Kobe was much better to start his Finals and had a worse game 7 while Lebron was worse through the first 6 games and had a better game 7.

Now my question. Why does Kobe always get the "LOOL 6/24 treatment" while people get to act like Lebron had some dominant series?


If Kobe was carried, Lebron was carried even more considering Kobes was better for the majority of his series than Lebron was for his.


And you can do this for all superstars.. Manu has saved duncans ass, Kobe has saved shaqs, and you can run down a list of stars getting help/contribtuions from teammates at critical times. So its not just Kobe especially focusing on one damn game.

[HOoopCityJones]

Dude.. every player has had that happen to them for some of their titles except maybe jordan.

You can compare Kobe 2010 Finals to Lebron 2013 Finals



Lebron is one made shot away from 1-6.

Lebron went from a 30+ppg scorer in the 13 ECF's to a 23 or so ppg scorer through like the first 6 games of the 2013 Finals on way lower efficiency


Kobe through the first 6 games of the 2010 Finals was at like 30/6/6 on 56 or 57 TS..

So Kobe was much better to start his Finals and had a worse game 7 while Lebron was worse through the first 6 games and had a better game 7.

Now my question. Why does Kobe always get the "LOOL 6/24 treatment" while people get to act like Lebron had some dominant series?


If Kobe was carried, Lebron was carried even more considering Kobes was better for the majority of his series than Lebron was for his.


And you can do this for all superstars.. Manu has saved duncans ass, Kobe has saved shaqs, and you can run down a list of stars getting help/contribtuions from teammates at critical times. So its not just Kobe especially focusing on one damn game.

Ether.

[Doranku]

Andrew Bynum was never an offensive force but his defense and rebounding helps THE TEAM a lot more than the stats will show.

In the 2010 NBA Finals, Kobe's supporting cast saved his ass bigtime while shooting 6-24 from the field.

Pau and Bynum combined for 13 offensive rebounds, and after the game head coach Phil Jackson called Ron Artest MVP of the game.

:roll::roll::roll:

Kobe wasnt carried though :sleeping.

Kobe had just as many offensive rebounds as Bynum, and had 15 total rebounds compared to Bynum's 6. :oldlol: Yet here you are trying to hype up Bynum as if his 2 point/6 rebound performance "carried" Kobe.

Cavs fans are literally braindead. Wow.

[HOoopCityJones]

Kobe had just as many offensive rebounds as Bynum, and had 15 total rebounds compared to Bynum's 6. :oldlol: Yet here you are trying to hype up Bynum as if his 2 point/6 rebound performance "carried" Kobe.

Cavs fans are literally braindead. Wow.

Kobe outrebounded the entire Celtics frontcourt as well. Which featured all time great KG and Rasheed Wallace.

[1~Gibson~1]

And you can do this for all superstars.. Manu has saved duncans ass, Kobe has saved shaqs, and you can run down a list of stars getting help/contribtuions from teammates at critical times. So its not just Kobe especially focusing on one damn game.Lebron has definitely had his share of help, and im not sugar coating it either, but this thread isnt about Lebron. It's about Kobe. Who i believe is overrated. Why?

I believe Kobe is overrated, because throughout his career he has not been carried, but he has had plenty of help and plenty of bail outs by his teammates.

Meanwhile, Lebron has been faced pretty much the same scenarios throughout his career (getting bailed out, bad games, unclutch moments). The difference is that Lebron has proven that he can lead a handicap team to the Finals, without any other star players. Kobe has not. Kobe has not proven that he could play with a team similar to this years Cavs or the 2007 Cavs and win it all.

I would like to see happens over the next few weeks to strengthen my argument.

[1~Gibson~1]

Kobe had just as many offensive rebounds as Bynum, and had 15 total rebounds compared to Bynum's 6. :oldlol: Yet here you are trying to hype up Bynum as if his 2 point/6 rebound performance "carried" Kobe.

Cavs fans are literally braindead. Wow.I understand ya boy was having a great series until game 7, but 6-24 in the biggest game of the season? :biggums:

He was carried.

[HOoopCityJones]

Lebron has definitely had his share of help, and im not sugar coating it either, but this thread isnt about Lebron. It's about Kobe. Who i believe is overrated. Why?

I believe Kobe is overrated, because throughout his career he has not been carried, but he has had plenty of help and plenty of bail outs by his teammates.

Meanwhile, Lebron has been faced pretty much the same scenarios throughout his career (getting bailed out, bad games, unclutch moments). The difference is that Lebron has proven that he can lead a handicap team to the Finals, without any other star players. Kobe has not. Kobe has not proven that he could play with a team similar to this years Cavs or the 2007 Cavs and win it all.

I would like to see happens over the next few weeks to strengthen my argument.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Ray-Allen-Hits-Three-to-Force-OT-Game-6-NBA-Finals.gif

http://i.imgur.com/CIu6gDI.jpg

:lol

[DMAVS41]

Malone has more win shares.
They all beat him in career VORP.
Barkley beats him in career Box +/-, win shares per minute and PER.

:confusedshrug:

Don't just post what they beat him in.

Post the entire body of work.

You'll notice nowhere in that do you mention that Duncan was an all time great defender (where most of his value comes from)...

Here's the thing.

If you stripped every player of their awards and titles and just talked about their play....Duncan will still be a top 10 type player...I'd rank him about where I do now.

Kobe? He'd go from fringe top 10 player to somewhere in the top 20 likely...if that.

I don't think you want to play this game mate.

[Doranku]

Lebron has definitely had his share of help, and im not sugar coating it either, but this thread isnt about Lebron. It's about Kobe. Who i believe is overrated. Why?

I believe Kobe is overrated, because throughout his career he has not been carried, but he has had plenty of help and plenty of bail outs by his teammates.

Meanwhile, Lebron has been faced pretty much the same scenarios throughout his career (getting bailed out, bad games, unclutch moments). The difference is that Lebron has proven that he can lead a handicap team to the Finals, without any other star players. Kobe has not. Kobe has not proven that he could play with a team similar to this years Cavs or the 2007 Cavs and win it all.

I would like to see happens over the next few weeks to strengthen my argument.

Yeah, that's what happens when you play in a real conference. Kobe can't just cakewalk to the finals like Bron does every year.

LeBron played TWO .500 teams in 2007. :oldlol: Honestly, I don't think Kobe has EVER faced a playoff opponent that wasn't above .500.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Don't just post what they beat him in.

Post the entire body of work.

You'll notice nowhere in that do you mention that Duncan was an all time great defender (where most of his value comes from)...

Here's the thing.

If you stripped every player of their awards and titles and just talked about their play....Duncan will still be a top 10 type player...I'd rank him about where I do now.

Kobe? He'd go from fringe top 10 player to somewhere in the top 20 likely...if that.

I don't think you want to play this game mate.

His defensive impact was already included in all four metrics.

Tim Duncan has the second highest career defensive win shares and the 8th best Defensive Plus Minus.

Karl Malone still has more win shares overall and Charles Barkley still has the higher overall plus minus and win shares per minute.

And once again all three of them have higher career VORPs than Duncan.

Where else should I look for this "impact" since we can't talk about rings anymore?

You think if those three had 5 rings as well Duncan still would get credit for being the best PF of all time?

[1~Gibson~1]

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Ray-Allen-Hits-Three-to-Force-OT-Game-6-NBA-Finals.gif


I love watching that shot. It summarizes my point. Every NBA FMVP will need a bailout at some point.

Shaq had Kobe for 4 consecutive trips to the Finals.
Lebron had Ray Allen/Wade/Bosh.
Kobe had Pau/Artest.

Im not denying any bail-outs.

Im just baffled at the fact that we all agree that being bailed out is going to have to happen at some point when winning a championship, but you hold it against him when there is no one there to bail him out. You know what i mean?

I'd like to see Kobe ask Matthew Dellavedova for a bail out shot :oldlol:

[MVBallin2K]

I understand ya boy was having a great series until game 7, but 6-24 in the biggest game of the season? :biggums:

He was carried.

Okay, time to put this issue to rest.

You say he's carried because he shot 6/24.

Gasol shot 6/16, Artest shot 7/18, Bynum 1/5, Fisher 4/6 (10 points), Odom 3/8. No one else on the bench even made a field goal.

Only Gasol outrebounded Kobe by 3.

So who was Kobe carried by? Artest had 20 and 5 steals and Gasol had 19/18 but Kobe had 23/15. Fisher is the only one who shot well in that game and he only shot 6 times. You can argue that Artest or Gasol were the player of the game but this whole carried thing is so overrated because everyone conviently forgets everyone elses FG% and just focuses as if Kobe was the only one who shot horribly. It's not some clear cut as day thing where Kobe was carried, it's arguable.

[HOoopCityJones]

I love watching that shot. It summarizes my point. Every NBA FMVP will need a bailout at some point.

Shaq had Kobe for 4 consecutive trips to the Finals.
Lebron had Ray Allen/Wade/Bosh.
Kobe had Pau/Artest.

Im not denying any bail-outs.

Im just baffled at the fact that we all agree that being bailed out is going to have to happen at some point when winning a championship, but you hold it against him when there is no one there to bail him out. You know what i mean?

I'd like to see Kobe ask Matthew Dellavedova for a bail out shot :oldlol:

There was more to the post than this gif.

You avoiding that 50 win meme like the plague, because you know your boy played in a terrible ass conference his entire career. That's the only reason he makes it to finals with weak supporting casts.

[1~Gibson~1]

Yeah, that's what happens when you play in a real conference. Kobe can't just cakewalk to the finals like Bron does every year.

LeBron played TWO .500 teams in 2007. :oldlol: Honestly, I don't think Kobe has EVER faced a playoff opponent that wasn't above .500.There was not another hall of fame or even all-star player on that roster in 2007.

Has Kobe even gotten out of the first round without another all-star?
Kobe has never had to rely on JR Smith as his "Pippen" in the NBA Finals either.

[1~Gibson~1]

Okay, time to put this issue to rest.

You say he's carried because he shot 6/24.

Gasol shot 6/16, Artest shot 7/18, Bynum 1/5, Fisher 4/6 (10 points), Odom 3/8. No one else on the bench even made a field goal.

Only Gasol outrebounded Kobe by 3.

So who was Kobe carried by? Artest had 20 and 5 steals and Gasol had 19/18 but Kobe had 23/15. Fisher is the only one who shot well in that game and he only shot 6 times. You can argue that Artest or Gasol were the player of the game but this whole carried thing is so overrated because everyone conviently forgets everyone elses FG% and just focuses as if Kobe was the only one who shot horribly. It's not some clear cut as day thing where Kobe was carried, it's arguable.Phil Jackson voice: "Ron Artest was the MVP of the game."


There was more to the post than this gif.

You avoiding that 50 win meme like the plague, because you know your boy played in a terrible ass conference his entire career. That's the only reason he makes it to finals with weak supporting casts. There arent as many star players in the East, which makes it top loaded.

Has Kobe ever made it out of the first round without another HOF/allstar on the roster?

[dreamwarrior]

Andrew Bynum was never an offensive force but his defense and rebounding helps THE TEAM a lot more than the stats will show.

In the 2010 NBA Finals, Kobe's supporting cast saved his ass bigtime while shooting 6-24 from the field.

Pau and Bynum combined for 13 offensive rebounds, and after the game head coach Phil Jackson called Ron Artest MVP of the game.

:roll::roll::roll:

Kobe wasnt carried though :sleeping.
Bynum was injured and only played 18 minutes. He was limited pre-game to a max of 20 minutes. He made a single shot in the first minute or so and that was it offensively. Metta was great in game 7, but not because of efficiency. He shot .389 from the field and had just 5 rebounds. He only went 2 for 7 from 3, the first very early in the 1st quarter and the second one near the end of the game, very very crucial. Stat wise just like Kobe he had a purely shit game, but everyone on that team played great D and had that killer instinct to will a win despite shooting 32.5% as a team. Fisher was the only one who shot better than 40% that game. The Celtics D was extremely bothersome, but they overplayed on D which resulted in a lot of unnecessary fouls and easy rebound opportunities (that's how Bynum and Gasol got so many ORBs). Kobe was fouled on 4-5 of those shots he missed but didn't get the calls. The Lakers simply played smarter on defense. Ray Allen and Pierce went 8-29.

[HOoopCityJones]

Phil Jackson voice: "Ron Artest was the MVP of the game."

There arent as many star players in the East, which makes it top loaded.

Has Kobe ever made it out of the first round without another HOF/allstar on the roster?

You're answering your own questions. :lol

Kobe's always played the better competition on his path to The Finals. It's that simple, side step that all you want sweetie.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

His defensive impact was already included in all four metrics.

Tim Duncan has the second highest career defensive win shares and the 8th best Defensive Plus Minus.

Karl Malone still has more win shares overall and Charles Barkley still has the higher overall plus minus and win shares per minute.

And once again all three of them have higher career VORPs than Duncan.

Where else should I look for this "impact" since we can't talk about rings anymore?

You think if those three had 5 rings as well Duncan still would get credit for being the best PF of all time?

This is exactly why I do NOT use advanced metrics. You can twist and claim a whole bunch of nonsense. Just depends on your agenda.

[1~Gibson~1]

There was more to the post than this gif.

You avoiding that 50 win meme like the plague, because you know your boy played in a terrible ass conference his entire career. That's the only reason he makes it to finals with weak supporting casts.Most of those wins happened with Kobe wearing a Scottie Pippen jersey :oldlol:

The others came from beating injured teams.

[1~Gibson~1]

You're answering your own questions. :lol

Kobe's always played the better competition on his path to The Finals. It's that simple, side step that all you want sweetie.He has played better competition while playing WITH more help.

(1/2) = (2/4), right?

[HOoopCityJones]

Most of those wins happened with Kobe wearing a Scottie Pippen jersey :oldlol:

The others came from beating injured teams.

Kobe has 11 or 16 50 win Teams beaten without Shaq. Lebron has 7, including after joining the Heat. How many does he have without Bosh and Wade?

[Nash]

lol at lakers fans totally neglecting the narrative at that time. Lakers were stacked as hell, teams barely had 2 superstars/all stars on one team like they do today.

[HOoopCityJones]

He has played better competition while playing WITH more help.

(1/2) = (2/4), right?

Lebron has won with more All-stars on a Team at a time than Kobe has.

Shaq and Gasol. Two separate squads.

Lebron has at least two All-stars at a time anytime he makes a run to The finals , except for 07. In an already depleted East. :confusedshrug:

[HOoopCityJones]

lol at lakers fans totally neglecting the narrative at that time. Lakers were stacked as hell, teams barely had 2 superstars/all stars on one team like they do today.

So did The Lakers.

[1~Gibson~1]

Kobe has 11 or 16 50 win Teams beaten without Shaq. Lebron has 7, including after joining the Heat. How many does he have without Bosh and Wade?Why do I have to take away Wade and Bosh when Kobe still had Pau/Bynum Artest/Ariza and Odom?

Lebron doesnt have to have more wins vs. 50win opponents to be considered >Kobe btw.

[HOoopCityJones]

Why do I have to take away Wade and Bosh when Kobe still had Pau/Bynum Artest/Ariza and Odom?

Lebron doesnt have to have more wins vs. 50win opponents to be considered >Kobe btw.

Go look at the the criteria you specifically outlined for why Lebron is better then come bck and try to troll harder.

[1~Gibson~1]

Lebron has won with more All-stars on a Team at a time than Kobe has.

Shaq and Gasol. Two separate squads.

Lebron has at least two All-stars at a time anytime he makes a run to The finals , except for 07. In an already depleted East. :confusedshrug:So now we're counting all-stars? :oldlol:

Kobe has won with many Hall of Famers.
Lebron finally gets help and all of a sudden he's fake?

Here are the facts:

Lebron has won multiple rings and lost multiple times with all-star teammates.
Kobe has won multiple rins and lost multiple times with all-star teammates.

Lebron has taken a team with no other all-stars to the NBA Finals and he is 4 games away from also winning an NBA title without the help of another all-star.

Kobe has not. Kobe has not made it out of the first round with another all-star. :oldlol:

[1~Gibson~1]

Go look at the the criteria you specifically outlined for why Lebron is better then come bck and try to troll harder.....better yet, see my last post.

It is a given that you're going to win when you have help. That's what great players do.

But can you win when the odds are against you? Lebron has done it, Kobe has not.

[HOoopCityJones]

....better yet, see my last post.

It is a given that you're going to win when you have help. That's what great players do.

But can you win when the odds are against you? Lebron has done it, Kobe has not.

What exactly has he won when the odds were against him though? :biggums:

[HOoopCityJones]

So now we're counting all-stars? :oldlol:

Kobe has won with many Hall of Famers.
Lebron finally gets help and all of a sudden he's fake?

Here are the facts:

Lebron has won multiple rings and lost multiple times with all-star teammates.
Kobe has won multiple rins and lost multiple times with all-star teammates.

Lebron has taken a team with no other all-stars to the NBA Finals and he is 4 games away from also winning an NBA title without the help of another all-star.

Kobe has not. Kobe has not made it out of the first round with another all-star. :oldlol:

Isn't that what you've been doing since the conversation began? counting how many stars Kobe has won with compared to Lebron. :facepalm

[34-24 Footwork]

People that hate Kobe are PATHETIC.

Bosh, Garnett, Stoudamire, Duncan, Dirk, Noah, Shaq, David Lee, Zach Randolph, Yao Ming WERE all considered better players than Pau Gasol before he won his ring with Kobe.

Kobe loses with Bynum/Gasol:

"Kobe needs Shaq".
"Can't do it without Shaq".
"Lakers soft".




Kobe wins with Bynum/Gasol:

"Gasol is the best big man in the game".
"They're 'dominant'."
"Bynum/Gasol= Robinson/Duncan"



I've never seen the irrationality displayed from people that attempt to discredit Kobe. It's looks sad and requires so much mental gymnastics.

[1~Gibson~1]

What exactly has he won when the odds were against him though? :biggums:Kobe: nothing.
Lebron: 1 conference title (vs. Pistons 2007), 1 championship (vs. Spurs 2013)

[HOoopCityJones]

Kobe: nothing.
Lebron: 1 conference title (vs. Pistons 2007), 1 championship (vs. Spurs 2013)

:roll:

Hold this L

[1~Gibson~1]

Isn't that what you've been doing since the conversation began? counting how many stars Kobe has won with compared to Lebron. :facepalmNo. The OPs agenda for this thread was to undermine the value of Gasol, Odom, and Bynum.

This thread wasnt about Lebron vs. Kobe until someone else brought it up.

[HOoopCityJones]

No. The OPs agenda for this thread was to undermine the value of Gasol, Odom, and Bynum.

This thread wasnt about Lebron vs. Kobe until someone else brought it up.

Conference Final ain't shit, especially out East. Fucc outta here with that shit.


Leborn has done NOTHING without All-star help.

[34-24 Footwork]

Meanwhile, the goal post continues to move to justify the heavy amount of finals losses for lebron. Dude is a great player....who forgets that he plays in a historically weak conference. Unfortunately, he only gets one opportunity in the playoffs to determine if his team is good enough to actually be there.

...And that's the NBA finals..going up a against great teams from the west.

He should honestly go play out west, tbh

[1~Gibson~1]

:roll:

Hold this L


Kobe: nothing....

[HOoopCityJones]

That's cute that you took the time to make that but it doesn't change that you completely fell off the rails with your argument.

[1~Gibson~1]

Conference Final ain't shit, especially out East. Fucc outta here with that shit.


Leborn has done NOTHING without All-star help.That may be true but....

You just gonna act like you didnt see NBA Championship vs. San Antonio Spurs in 2013 on that list :oldlol:

I only added the conference title to prove your agenda. Unless you're going to squeal out you're LEGALLY BLINNND. P.O.P.!

[HOoopCityJones]

That may be true but....

You just gonna act like you didnt see NBA Championship vs. San Antonio Spurs in 2013 on that list :oldlol:

I only added the conference title to prove your agenda. Unless you're going to squeal out you're LEGALLY BLINNND. P.O.P.!

:coleman: Wtf are you even talking about right now.

2013 Heat didn't have any HoF/All-stars?

[1~Gibson~1]

:coleman: Wtf are you even talking about right now.

2013 Heat didn't have any HoF/All-stars?I wasnt arguing HOFs. Go back and read.

[HOoopCityJones]

I wasnt arguing HOFs. Go back and read.

You're a fuccing idiot. Oh maan. :facepalm

[1~Gibson~1]

You're a fuccing idiot. Oh maan. :facepalm

Who is that pokemon:

2 NBA FMVP

[DMAVS41]

His defensive impact was already included in all four metrics.

Tim Duncan has the second highest career defensive win shares and the 8th best Defensive Plus Minus.

Karl Malone still has more win shares overall and Charles Barkley still has the higher overall plus minus and win shares per minute.

And once again all three of them have higher career VORPs than Duncan.

Where else should I look for this "impact" since we can't talk about rings anymore?

You think if those three had 5 rings as well Duncan still would get credit for being the best PF of all time?


You can look at everything. All the stats...all the success...the team success...etc.

You can look at it all. You, aren't doing that....

And YES! If Duncan, Barkley, Malone...etc. all had the same amount of rings and won them in similar fashion...Duncan would absolutely be thought of as the best.

You actually deny this? You actually would take Malone over Duncan? Really?

This is a terrible example for you.

If you stripped everyone of their rings...and compared Kobe, Lebron, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Magic, and Bird....virtually nobody would take Kobe.

Many people, in fact, I'd argue a majority...would still take Duncan as the GOAT PF.

That is the difference....that is what you clowns don't get.

[NBASTATMAN]

His defensive impact was already included in all four metrics.

Tim Duncan has the second highest career defensive win shares and the 8th best Defensive Plus Minus.

Karl Malone still has more win shares overall and Charles Barkley still has the higher overall plus minus and win shares per minute.

And once again all three of them have higher career VORPs than Duncan.

Where else should I look for this "impact" since we can't talk about rings anymore?

You think if those three had 5 rings as well Duncan still would get credit for being the best PF of all time?


MJ BEAT THOSE GUYS... THANKS FOR ALL DAT RESEARCH BUDDY :applause:

[COnDEMnED]

They were more stacked than any other team during their championship runs. Kobe could never win as an underdog. His supporting cast did a good job of covering his ass whenever he needed.
This very forum was saying the Lakers would get smashed by Dwight and the Magic in the finals. "Regular season 4-0 against Lakers, bring out the brooms.", people said. Lakers were also down 3-2 the following year against Boston in the finals....until Kobe shit on everyone in beantown game 6, bringing the series back to LA.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

I mean you can't get more stacked then 2nd peat Bulls. Jordan really didn't have to do much that's why I always liked 1st peat Bulls more. He did a lot with just another superstar Scottie Pippen and a good starter in Horace Grant then a ton of good/great role players.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You can look at everything. All the stats...all the success...the team success...etc.

You can look at it all. You, aren't doing that....

And YES! If Duncan, Barkley, Malone...etc. all had the same amount of rings and won them in similar fashion...Duncan would absolutely be thought of as the best.

You actually deny this? You actually would take Malone over Duncan? Really?

This is a terrible example for you.

If you stripped everyone of their rings...and compared Kobe, Lebron, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Magic, and Bird....virtually nobody would take Kobe.

Many people, in fact, I'd argue a majority...would still take Duncan as the GOAT PF.

That is the difference....that is what you clowns don't get.

Then clearly you don't value the metrics you were citing yesterday just like you backtracked from the supporting cast study you brought up this morning.

:confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

Then clearly you don't value the metrics you were citing yesterday just like you backtracked from the supporting cast study you brought up this morning.

:confusedshrug:


I didn't backtrack you clown. I said that I'm not going to act like it's the end all be all.

If one team is a 4.7 and the other is a 4.9...I'm not gonna act like that is all that matters.

I said you should use everything you can.

Do I think the 04 Lakers were better than the 04 Pistons on talent in supporting casts? Nope. And just because that study says otherwise doesn't mean I can't defend that position.

What that study, as I have repeated now many times, is show what is and isn't an absurd claim.

It's not an absurd claim to say the 04 Lakers weren't quite as talented as the 04 Pistons.

It is an absurd claim to say that Dirk had better than average talent around him in 11, or that Kobe's 09 and 10 rosters are comparable to the 15 Cavs.

Do you see the difference?

You keep picking things that are close enough to have a real debate on...and acting like it's the same thing as claiming the 09 Lakers and the 15 Cavs are similar in supporting casts.

If you can't follow the difference...I give up.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I didn't backtrack you clown. I said that I'm not going to act like it's the end all be all.

If one team is a 4.7 and the other is a 4.9...I'm not gonna act like that is all that matters.

I said you should use everything you can.

Do I think the 04 Lakers were better than the 04 Pistons on talent in supporting casts? Nope. And just because that study says otherwise doesn't mean I can't defend that position.

What that study, as I have repeated now many times, is show what is and isn't an absurd claim.

It's not an absurd claim to say the 04 Lakers weren't quite as talented as the 04 Pistons.

It is an absurd claim to say that Dirk had better than average talent around him in 11, or that Kobe's 09 and 10 rosters are comparable to the 15 Cavs.

Do you see the difference?

You keep picking things that are close enough to have a real debate on...and acting like it's the same thing as claiming the 09 Lakers and the 15 Cavs are similar in supporting casts.

If you can't follow the difference...I give up.

Once again show me where I made statements remotely in line with the "absurd" claims you are apparently arguing against?

Why don't you debate the points I actually make instead of the strawman arguments that you imagine in your mind? :roll:

[DMAVS41]

Once again show me where I made statements remotely in line with the "absurd" claims you are apparently arguing against?

Why don't you debate the points I actually make instead of the strawman arguments that you imagine in your mind? :roll:

I don't even know what you are arguing though.

You asked about Duncan's supporting casts and I gave you my answer.

I clearly, in detail, explained to you why I and nobody should adhere solely to that list as it's one of many many many things.

What I tried to explain to you is that there is a difference between debating the 07 Spurs vs the 10 Lakers supporting casts and debating (not saying you are) the current Cavs vs the 09 Lakers.

That study is good for some objective data on that stuff.

Does it really matter when it's two teams a handful of spots away? Well yea I guess...it probably means they were really similar.

Also, you ignored it earlier.

If you make Kobe the best player on the 00 through 02 Lakers so his supporting cast is actually evaluated...the 00 and 02 Lakers are in the top 3 supporting casts of the last 30 years.

Again...when people make these arguments...it's always about the Shaq years. Nobody acts like Kobe's titles don't count.