Bran or Wilt- who will go down in history as the greatest choker?

[DFish24]

Both physical specimens who posted gaudy stats yet always came up short on the biggest stage. So who will go down in history as the NBA's greatest choker between Bran and Wilt?

[Ca$H]

Both physical specimens who posted gaudy stats yet always came up short on the biggest stage. So who will go down in history as the NBA's greatest choker between Bran and Wilt?

It's tough. Wilt played in a weak era. While Bran played in an even weaker Eastern Conference. I'll go with Bran.

[Beastmode88]

2011.

[SexSymbol]

Bran still has more years to reach the finals and lose again

[Young X]

Bron has multiple rings, multiple clutch moments and is probably the best elimination game player in league history. He's nowhere near a "choker".

You guys gotta stop making these dumb ass threads.

[Rose'sACL]

Going by finals stats and then crunch time stats, Kobe is probably the worst among top 10 all time players.
Both Jordan and lebron shit on him in clutch time stats.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Wilt. All while in a weaker era, later in his career with stacked "Big Three" rosters as well.

While LeBron is an extremely talented, all-time great coward who stacks the deck roster wise in a conference devoid of competitive talent. He still has to face great basketball teams out west. He's lived up to his hype since HS, at times being a let down, but is also one of the games best ever elimination game players ... probably a top five talent all-time.

Wilt however was even more unfairly physically dominant compared to his peers. But he was selfish, and historically played below his standards in the more pressure packed, meaningful portion of the season. IE, the playoffs / Finals. Look at the massive dip in scoring volume per game from regular season, to post season.

Chamberlain, defined as basically a dominant, selfish loser.

[lilteapot]

Neither.

Let's be real, the only people that view either player as chokers are the retards on this board that know nothing about basketball.

[BlakFrankWhite]

Bronna

No one gives a crap 'bout 60's b-ball

[Hey Yo]

Both physical specimens who posted gaudy stats yet always came up short on the biggest stage. So who will go down in history as the NBA's greatest choker between Bran and Wilt?
Always??

They both have 2 rings ya stupid ass.

[ShawkFactory]

Is it considered a choke if the Cavs don't win this series?

[G0ATbe]

Isn't wilt 2/5 also?

Balds already surpassing that and will probably retire around 2/10 so it's gotta be him, no contest.

[DFish24]

Isn't wilt 2/5 also?

Balds already surpassing that and will probably retire around 2/10 so it's gotta be him, no contest.

Wilt is 2/6. Bran will tie him soon.

[COnDEMnED]

Who has more impressive records that will never be broken? The other person is the greatest choker.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Who has more impressive records that will never be broken? The other person is the greatest choker.
Those records are in the regular season. How many impressive playoff records does he have?

[Mr. Jabbar]

Both have strong cases, but ima go with the 2011 dude

[jzek]

So far Wilt has the edge although LeBron's career is not over yet so plenty of chances for him to further f*ck up his legacy.

[Hardjelly]

Bron's 2011 choke job is considered by many the greatest choke in (any) sports history. He over promised and under-delivered big time in that series. And the way he shrank smaller and smaller game after game, it's hard to top this level of mental midgetry.

[Kblaze8855]

Always??

They both have 2 rings ya stupid ass.


Yea...

I really need to put an end to these idiotic topics.

Too many thousands of players have never won to be constantly calling out guys with MULTIPLE rings as somehow among the greatest losers ever.

Its coming up on just being trolling.

[COnDEMnED]

Those records are in the regular season. How many impressive playoff records does he have?
You'd have to ask a Wilt fan. I don't know off the top of my head.

[Kblaze8855]

Those records are in the regular season. How many impressive playoff records does he have?

Wilt has like 17-18 playoff records. You finding them impressive or not is on you.

Having checked its over 20. I stopped counting. A number of them are related to his crazy stamina, rebounding, and shooting percentages. He has a few scoring ones as well. Rookie scoring record(53). If you go into the "Most games with ____ and ____" kinda records im sure it would be a hell of a lot more. But im not counting like...most 30/30 playoff games.

Im sure he has damn near all of those.

[Hey Yo]

Bron's 2011 choke job is considered by many the greatest choke in (any) sports history. He over promised and under-delivered big time in that series. And the way he shrank smaller and smaller game after game, it's hard to top this level of mental midgetry.
Led the Heat in scoring 2 of the games and had a triple double in another.

weak troll, brah

[SouBeachTalents]

Led the Heat in scoring 2 of the games and had a triple double in another.

weak troll, brah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FuYJ1U2YZ8

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20NBA%20Record/Lebron%20James/aka%20big%20choker/lebron-james-2011-nba-final-4q.jpg

[SamuraiSWISH]

Led the Heat in scoring 2 of the games and had a triple double in another.

weak troll, brah
This clown is actually defending the 2011 Finals now as not being a historic choke job? Wow, new levels of shameful LeBron stanism.

:biggums:

[Hey Yo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FuYJ1U2YZ8

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20NBA%20Record/Lebron%20James/aka%20big%20choker/lebron-james-2011-nba-final-4q.jpg
So why didn't someone on the Heat overtake James in total scoring the 2 games he led the team in total scoring?

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt has like 17-18 playoff records. You finding them impressive or not is on you.

Having checked its over 20. I stopped counting. A number of them are related to his crazy stamina, rebounding, and shooting percentages. He has a few scoring ones as well. Rookie scoring record(53). If you go into the "Most games with ____ and ____" kinda records im sure it would be a hell of a lot more. But im not counting like...most 30/30 playoff games.

Im sure he has damn near all of those.

It's actually far more if include marks such as most 20-20 games, series, post-seasons, etc. Then you can extend them to most 25-20, then 30-20, then 30-25, then 35-20 etc.

And choking...

I just did a study of Wilt's "at-the-limit" post-season games. These are game three's of a best-of-three, game five's of a best-of-five, and game seven's of a best-of-seven...


Wilt in his 11 "at the limit elimination" games...as well as his starting opposing center's numbers...

Wilt:

133-229 FG/FGA
.581 FG%
63-140 FT/FTA
.450 FT%
.550 TS%
299 Rebs
27.2 rpg
39 ast (10 known games)
3.9 apg
30 blks (4 known games)
7.5 bpg
329 pts
29.9 ppg
6-5 W-L

Starting Opposing Centers:

37-87 FG/FGA (8 known games)
.425 FG%
24-35 FT/FTA
.686 FT%
.469 TS%
130 Rebs (8 known games)
16.3 rpg
32 ast (8 known games)
4.0 apg
128 pts
11.6 ppg
5-6 W-L

So Wilt was basically a 30-27-4-8 .550 TS% (in post-season NBA's that shot about a .480 TS% in that same span) player in his "at the limit elimination" games. All while slaughtering his opposing centers.


And here is a prime "scoring" Wilt's numbers in his 5 "at the limit elimination" games, as well as his starting opposing center's numbers...

Wilt:

84-149 FG/FGA
.564 FG%
32-66 FT/FTA
.485 FT%
.549 TS%
141 Rebs
28.2 rpg
8 asts (4 known games)
2.0 apg
11 blks (2 known games)
5.5 bpg
200 pts
40.0 ppg
3-2 W-L

Starting Opposing Center's numbers:

26-64 FG/FGA
.406 FG%
11-13 FT/FTA
.846 FT%
.447 TS%
70 Rebs (4 known games)
17.5 rpg
16 asts (4 known games)
4.0 apg
71 pts
14.2 ppg
2-3 W-L

So a "scoring" Chamberlain was basically a 40-28-2-6 .550 TS% (in post-seasons that shot about a TS% of .460) player in his "at the limit elimination" games...all while just obliterating his opposing starting centers.

BTW, if you add up Wilt's points in those 11 games (329), and then add up his regular season scoring averages in those same seasons, it comes to 343 (38, 50, 50, 37, 35, 24, 21, 27, 27, 21, and 13.) So, Chamberlain basically equaled his regular season scoring average in those 11 games (29.9 ppg vs 31.2 ppg)...and on a considerably higher FG% than his regular season FG% in that same span.


And for those that just want game seven's...

Wilt played in nine of them, and his team went 4-5.

He averaged 24.4 ppg, 26.7 rpg, 4.1 apg, 7.5 bpg, .626 FG%, .451 FT%, and a .579 TS%. BTW, that .626 FG% is easily the highest of a "GOAT" candidate.


Yep...Wilt "the choker"...

And then compared them with Kareem's games in the same situation...


Kareem in his 8 "at the limit elimination" games:

23.3 ppg
11.3 rpg
3.5 apg
.513 FG%
.694 FT%
.539 TS%
4-4 W-L

In his 6 game seven's...

20.5 ppg
10.2 rpg
3.5 apg
.505 FG%
.697 FT%
.532 TS%
4-2 W-L

Continued...

[Hey Yo]

This clown is actually defending the 2011 Finals now as not being a historic choke job? Wow, new levels of shameful LeBron stanism.

:biggums:
Look at what I quoted when I posted it........coach!

[SouBeachTalents]

So why didn't someone on the Heat overtake James in total scoring the 2 games he led the team in total scoring?

He was the team's leading scorer by a whopping 2 points in both those games. Wade did outscore him by 16, 12, and 24 points in Games 2-4 though, and still outscored him by 6 points in Game 5 even though he was injured and played an entire quarter less

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

How did Wilt perform in his "must-win" playoff games...games in which his team faced elimination?


Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)


3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

BTW, Wilt's 31.1 ppg is third behind...MJ's 31.3 ppg, and guess who...none other than Lebron, and his 31.9 ppg.


But, let's carry this even further...how about elimination and series clinching games...


Wilt actually played in 37 "elimination games",...games where either his team faced elimination, or could have clinched the series:

1. W: 53-22-2, 24-42 FG/FGA

2. W: 50-35-2, 22-42

3. L: 26-24-0, 8-18

4. L: 33-23-1, 13-29

5. W: 56-35-1, 22-48

6. W: 32-21-1, 12-29

7. L: 22-22-3, 7-15

8. W: 39-30-?, 19-29

9. L: 30-27-2, 12-28

10. W: 38-26-5, 14-22, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

11. W: 30-26-4, 13-22, 13 blks (Triple-Double)

12. L: 30-32-2, 12-15

13. L: 46-34-?, 19-34

14. W: 18-27-9, 7-14

15. W: 29-36-13, 10-16, 7 blks (Triple-Double)

16. W: 24-23-4, 8-13

17. W: 25-27-3, 10-19

18. L: 28-30-7, 11-21

19. L: 20-27-8, 6-21

20. L: 14-34-5, 4-9

21. W: 11-25-1, 5-9

22. W: 16-29-3, 5-11, 16 blks (Triple-Double)

23. L: 8-18-4, 1-5

24. L: 18-27-3, 7-8

25. W: 36-14-3, 12-20

26. W: 12-26-11, 4-11, 11 blks (Quad-Double)

27. W: 30-27-6, 11-18, 11 blks (Triple-Double)

28. W: 45-27-3, 20-27

29. L: 21-24-4, 10-16

30. W: 25-19-9, 7-12

31. L: 23-12-4, 10-21

32. W: 8-31-8, 4-6

33. W: 20-24-2, 8-12, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

34. W: 24-29-4, 10-14, 8 blks

35. W: 21-28-4, 10-17, 8 blks

36. W: 5-22-7, 2-2

37. L: 23-21-3, 9-16


W-L : 24-13

Here were Wilt's averages in those 37 games:

29.5 ppg

26.1 rpg

4.2 apg (missing one game)

.546 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .440 on average in that span.)

Keep in mind that 24 of those 37 games came after his "scoring seasons" (59-60 thru 65-66)

[JellyBean]

There is still time for LeBrick. But right now, Wilt is the greatest choker. He should have won more in his era.

[COnDEMnED]

Can I get a little clarification from the OP? Are you asking who is the greatest choker ( who choked more between the two ), or who is the greatest choker (between the two chokers, who was the best player)? Who choked more is probably Lebron. Between the two chokers, who was the better player? Wilt, in my opinion (because of his records).

[f0und]

has wilt ever *hit the bed in the finals as bad as bron did in 07 and 11?

[SamuraiSWISH]

He was the team's leading scorer by a whopping 2 points in both those games. Wade did outscore him by 16, 12, and 24 points in Games 2-4 though, and still outscored him by 6 points in Game 5 even though he was injured and played an entire quarter less
Hey Yo ... hold this dick, I mean L.

[KiiiiNG]

kobe 2004, 2008, 2010 game 7 (6-24) are just some of some of his notorious choke jobs

not to mention his 4 airballs against utah his rookie season

and also his most recent chokes against dallas in 2011 and okc in 2012

kobe is probably the greatest choker ever

[Hey Yo]

He was the team's leading scorer by a whopping 2 points in both those games. Wade did outscore him by 16, 12, and 24 points in Games 2-4 though, and still outscored him by 6 points in Game 5 even though he was injured and played an entire quarter less
So what you're saying is that no Heat player stepped up in the 4th quarter in the 2 games James led the team in scoring to overtake him?

[LAZERUSS]

Chamberlain played in 29 post-season series, and was the leading rebounder in 28 of them. And he went 29-29 against his opposing centers, most of whom are in the HOF. In the one series in which he did not lead in rebounding, he was outrebounded by one rebound. But, when he faced that same player (Lucas) as a center in the '72 Finals...a 35 year old Wilt, playing 47 mpg in that series, outrebounded a 31 year old Lucas, playing 46 mpg in that series...by a 23.2 to 9.8 rpg margin.

The reality was, Chamberlain just SHELLED his peers on the glass in the post-season. He outrebounded Russell in EVERY one of their EIGHT post-season series, and some by margins as much as 5, 6, and even 9 rpg! He pounded Thurmond in all three of their post-season series, and by margins as 5 and even 6rpg. Hell, as a 34 and 35 year old, he outrebounded Kareem in both of their post-season series. If you get into "lessor" centers, like Reed, there were series in which he was outrebounding him by nearly 15 rpg.

How about Wilt's defense in the post-season?


Wilt's post-season FG% allowed:

59-60:

Kerr regular season FG% against the league: .392
Kerr against Wilt in the playoffs: .294

Dierking regular season FG%: .365
Dierking vs Wilt in the post-season: .333

Russell regular season: .467
Russell vs. Wilt in the post-season: .446


60-61:

Kerr regular season: .397
Kerr vs Wilt: .321

Halbrook regular season: .335
Halbrook vs Wilt: .387


61-62:

Kerr regular season: .443
Kerr vs. Wilt: .376

Russell regular season: .457
Russell vs Wilt: .399


63-64:

Beaty regular season: .444
Beaty vs. Wilt: .520

Russell regular season: .433
Russell vs. Wilt: .386


64-65:

Embry regular season: .456
Embry vs Wilt: .438

Russell regular season: .438
Russell vs. Wilt: .446


65-66:

Russell regular season: .415
Russell vs. Wilt: .424


66-67:

Dierking regular season: .399
Dierking vs Wilt: .427

Russell regular season: .454
Russell vs. Wilt: .358

Thurmond regular season: .437
Thurmond vs. Wilt: .343


67-68:

Bellamy regular season: .541
Bellamy vs. Wilt: .421

Russell regular season: .425
Russell vs. Wilt: .440


68-69:

Thurmond regular season: .410
Thurmond vs Wilt: .392

Beaty regular season: .470
Beaty vs. Wilt: .383

Russell regular season: .433
Russell vs. Wilt: .397


69-70:

Walk regular season: .470
Walk vs Wilt: .395

Fox regular season: .524
Fox vs Wilt: .362

Bellamy regular season: .523
Bellamy vs Wilt: .456

Reed regular season: .507
Reed vs Wilt: .483


70-71:

Boerwinkle regular season: .485
Boerwinkle vs Wilt: .463

Fox regular season: .458
Fox vs Wilt: .434

Kareem regular season: .577
Kareem vs Wilt: .481


71-72:

Ray regular season: .499
Ray vs Wilt: .529

Kareem regular season: .574
Kareem vs Wilt: .457

Lucas regular season: .512
Lucas vs Wilt: .500


72-73:

Awtry regular season: .480
Awtry vs Wilt: .542

Thurmond regular season: .446
Thurmond vs Wilt: .373

Reed regular season: .474
Reed vs Wilt: .493

BTW, a PEAK Kareem and an a way-past-his-prime Wilt met in two consecutive series clinching games in their '71 and '72 post-season H2H's. Wilt held a PEAK Kareem to 23-60 shooting in those two games (.383), all while shooting 18-33 himself (.545.)

[SouBeachTalents]

So what you're saying is that no Heat player stepped up in the 4th quarter in the 2 games James led the team in scoring to overtake him?

Wade certainly stepped up in the 4th quarter of Game 1, he had 7 points, 3 boards and 3 assists, including setting LeBron up for an easy dunk to give him the scoring lead for the game. Game 6 LeBron finally outscored him in the 4th by 3 points :bowdown: :bowdown:

How did LeBron do in the 4th in Games 2-5?

[Cold soul]

Wilt the better player but Lebron the greater choker.

[HylianNightmare]

Wilt

[Hey Yo]

Wade certainly stepped up in the 4th quarter of Game 1, he had 7 points, 3 boards and 3 assists, including setting LeBron up for an easy dunk to give him the scoring lead for the game. Game 6 LeBron finally outscored him in the 4th by 3 points :bowdown: :bowdown:

How did LeBron do in the 4th in Games 2-5?
Why bring up Wade's assists and rebounds? You posted James scoring stats in the 4th quarter.

Maybe if Wade wasn't so dismal in the first half, the game wouldn't have been so close going into the 4th quarter.

[DFish24]

Can I get a little clarification from the OP? Are you asking who is the greatest choker ( who choked more between the two ), or who is the greatest choker (between the two chokers, who was the best player)? Who choked more is probably Lebron. Between the two chokers, who was the better player? Wilt, in my opinion (because of his records).

The former. I think Wilt will be considered the better player mainly because he holds so many records that will go unbroken.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

So what you're saying is that no Heat player stepped up in the 4th quarter in the 2 games James led the team in scoring to overtake him?

Why in the hell are you defending LeBron's play in 2011? And what's worse is that you're criticizing the other Heat players for "not stepping up." Seriously?

:biggums:

[SouBeachTalents]

Why bring up Wade's assists and rebounds? You posted James scoring stats in the 4th quarter.

Maybe if Wade wasn't so dismal in the first half, the game wouldn't have been so close going into the 4th quarter.

It's pointless arguing with you. Dude had an NBA record 9 point drop off from his regular season average in the Finals, got outscored by Terry coming off the bench, and was a ghost in the 4th quarter. You want to be in the .01% that doesn't blame LeBron for that series, so be it. This is pretty much the equivalent of a Seahawks fan defended that playcall in the Super Bowl

[sd3035]

Each has one legendary Finals choke of epic proportions

Bran 2011 needs no explanation

Wilt had a teammate actually win Finals MVP but lose the series due to Wilt's relentless choking

[Hey Yo]

Why in the hell are you defending LeBron's play in 2011? And what's worse is that you're criticizing the other Heat players for "not stepping up." Seriously?

:biggums:
Because some douchbag earlier in the thread said it was the worst choke performance sports history.

keep up, yo

[Deuce Bigalow]

No one touches Wilt

Largest career playoff ppg and finals ppg drop-offs in history

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Wilt had a teammate actually win Finals MVP but lose the series due to Wilt's relentless choking

:lebronamazed:

[Hey Yo]

It's pointless arguing with you. Dude had an NBA record 9 point drop off from his regular season average in the Finals

Not arguing about his point drop off, even though Wade was captain and all of a sudden was made 1st option before the Finals started


got outscored by Terry coming off the bench, and was a ghost in the 4th quarter.

Terry facing top D (coming off the bench) the same type D as James was facing?


You want to be in the .01% that doesn't blame LeBron for that series, so be it. This is pretty much the equivalent of a Seahawks fan defended that playcall in the Super Bowl
To place blame soley on James is absurd and dumb.

Who would have thunk that Chandler could control the boards more than Joel Anthony?

[gilalizard]

LeQuit.

No matter what else, Wilt's got his 20,000.

[LAZERUSS]

Each has one legendary Finals choke of epic proportions

Bran 2011 needs no explanation

Wilt had a teammate actually win Finals MVP but lose the series due to Wilt's relentless choking

:roll: :roll: :roll:

BUT, then Wilt won a FMVP as THE man, and a TITLE, when that same player (West) put up an historic choke job in the '72 Finals (yes...a .325 FG% in the '72 Finals.)

All of which proves that it should have been WILT carrying the '69 Lakers instead of West. Too bad they both had an incompetent coach who made that decision.

BTW, using ISH standards...shouldn't WEST be labeled "Mr. Choke?" He went 1-9 in his Finals, and was just putrid in the one Finals that he did win.

[K Xerxes]

Two of the greatest players of all time go down as the... greatest chokers. Makes sense. Some of you people are something else.

[LAZERUSS]

No one touches Wilt

Largest career playoff ppg and finals ppg drop-offs in history

Kobe...and by a MILE...


99-00
Regular season 22.5 ppg .468 FG%
Finals 15.6 ppg .367 FG%
Last Game of Series .296 FG%

00-01
Regular season 28.5 ppg .464 FG%
Finals 24.6 ppg .415 FG%
Last Game of Series .389 FG%

01-02
Regular season 25.2 ppg .469
Finals 26.8 ppg .514 FG%
Last Game of Series .438 FG%

03-04
Regular season 24.0 ppg .438 FG%
Finals 22.6 ppg .381 FG%
Last Game of Series .333 FG%

07-08
Regular season 28.3 ppg .459 FG%
Finals 25.7 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .318 FG%

08-09
Regular season 26.8 ppg .467 FG%
Finals 32.4 ppg .430 FG%
Last Game of Series .435 FG%

09-10
Regular season 27.0 ppg .456 FG%
Finals 28.6 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .250 FG%


Other noteables:


97-98
Swept by Utah 4-0.
Kobe averages 10.0 ppg on a .367 FG%

98-99
Swept by San Antonio 4-0
Last game of the series : Kobe 16 points on a .438 FG%

02-03
Lose to Spurs in WCF's, 4-2.
Last game loss by a score of 110-82 (Kobe with 20 points in a season in which he averaged 30 ppg)

03-04 Finals
Heavily favored Lakers lose to Pistons, 4-1.
In the clinching game five loss Kobe shoots .333 in a 100-87 loss (and LA was down 23 going into 4th quarter)

04-05
Team goes 34-48 and misses playoffs

05-06
Regular season 35.4 ppg .450
Playoffs 27.9 ppg .497
Last game (7) 24 points in a 121-90 loss (after blowing a 3-1 series lead)

06-07
Team goes 42-40
Loses in first round to Suns, 4-1.
Last game of that series, Kobe shoots .394 from the floor

07-08
Lakers are blown out by Celts in Finals.
In game four the Lakers blow a 23 point lead, and lose, in a game in which Kobe shot .316 from the field.
In the clinching game six loss, the Lakers lose by a Finals record margin of 131-92. Kobe shoots .318 from the floor.

10-11
Lakers with HCA are swept by the Mavs, 4-0.
In the clinching game four loss, LA loses 122-86. Kobe shoots .389 from the field.


And of course, while Kobe couldn't hit a shot to save his life in the vast majority of his Finals, he was also nowhere near the rebounder or defensive force that Chamberlain was. BTW, Wilt ELEVATED his rebounding and FG% in his Finals, and outscored, badly rebounded and massively outshot his HOF peers from the field in those Finals (outshooting them from the field by a .559 to .439 margin.)

And before some clown brings up FT%. A FTA counts as ONE-HALF (or even a THIRD in the case of a made 3PT attempt) of a FGA. Each missed FGA has DOUBLE the negativity of a missed FTA. Kobe was the KING of INEFFICIENCY, and single-handedly cost his team TWO Finals, and nearly a THIRD one (who the hell shoots 6-24 in a game seven of the Finals?)

One more "efficency" stat that the Kobe-lovers will hate to see...

Wilt's .559 eFG% in his six Finals, came in post-season NBA's that shot an eFG% of about .440 on average. Kobe's .420 has come in post-season NBA's that shot an eFG% of about .480 on average. Wilt shot LIGHT YEAR's ABOVE the post-season league averages...and Kobe...MASSIVELY UNDER his.

Game Seven's in the NBA Finals?

Kobe shot 6-24 from the field, and 11-15 from the line....or a TS% of .365.
Wilt, despite shooting 5-24 from the line in his 2 game seven's, still had a TS% of .542, thanks to his 17-24 (an eye-popping .708!) shooting from the field. And again, Kob's .365 came in leagues that shot a considerably higher TS% than Wilt's era.

[DFish24]

Kobe...and by a MILE...



And of course, while Kobe couldn't hit a shot to save his life in the vast majority of his Finals, he was also nowhere near the rebounder or defensive force that Chamberlain was. BTW, Wilt ELEVATED his rebounding and FG% in his Finals, and outscored, badly rebounded and massively outshot his HOF peers from the field in those Finals (outshooting them from the field by a .559 to .439 margin.)

And before some clown brings up FT%. A FTA counts as ONE-HALF (or even a THIRD in the case of a made 3PT attempt) of a FGA. Each missed FGA has DOUBLE the negativity of a missed FTA. Kobe was the KING of INEFFICIENCY, and single-handedly cost his team TWO Finals, and nearly a THIRD one (who the hell shoots 6-24 in a game seven of the Finals?)

One more "efficency" stat that the Kobe-lovers will hate to see...

Wilt's .559 eFG% in his six Finals, came in post-season NBA's that shot an eFG% of about .440 on average. Kobe's .420 has come in post-season NBA's that shot an eFG% of about .480 on average. Wilt shot LIGHT YEAR's ABOVE the post-season league averages...and Kobe...MASSIVELY UNDER his.

Game Seven's in the NBA Finals?

Kobe shot 6-24 from the field, and 11-15 from the line....or a TS% of .365.
Wilt, despite shooting 5-24 from the line in his 2 game seven's, still had a TS% of .542, thanks to his 17-24 (an eye-popping .708!) shooting from the field. And again, Kob's .365 came in leagues that shot a considerably higher TS% than Wilt's era.

5/7>>>>>>>2/6

[LAZERUSS]

5/7>>>>>>>2/6

Nope...Kobe was carried in three Finals, and then tried to lose another with his gawd-awful play. His only above-average Finals came against a hapless Nets team.

Official tally for Kobe... ONE. Oh, and he also single-handedly cost his team two more.

The REAL official tally for Kobe... -1.

[Ne 1]

Wilt lead a team to 31 wins while in his statistical prime and while playing every game. He failed individually almost annually all throughout his prime years in the playoffs. He led his team to the worst record in the league (11-33) before his team decides to trade him midway through the season. Look at his career year by year, playoff run by playoff run and put it all in context and I don't see how anyone comes off thinking highly of Wilt.

[colts19]

Everyone likes to trash Wilt, but I saw him play. I saw him as the MDE. Everyone needs good teammates to have great teams and when Wilt had good teammates his teams were dominate because of him. Put any one else on those teams in place of him and they would not have been near as good. People really need to just quit being STUPID. Check the record book people.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt lead a team to 31 wins while in his statistical prime and while playing every game. He failed individually almost annually all throughout his prime years in the playoffs. He led his team to the worst record in the league (11-33) before his team decides to trade him midway through the season. Look at his career year by year, playoff run by playoff run and put it all in context and I don't see how anyone comes off thinking highly of Wilt.

Let's examine those three seasons, shall we?

In that 31-49 season, Chamberlain, with arguably the worst roster in NBA history (SIXTEEN different players, several of whom only played briefly in the NBA.) led the league in 15 statiscal categories...including WIN SHARES, and by a HUG margin. BTW, that team lost 35 games by single digits, and had a -2.2 ppg margin.

How bad was that roster? The Warriors new coach for the 63-64 season, conducted a pre-season scrimmage, sans Wilt, between the veterans on that roster, against a group of rookies and rejects. Guess which team won?

Ok, so in that very next season, and with that new coach, Wilt takes that same identical roster to a 48-32 record, then single-handedly destroys a much mor talented Hawks team (that were better, player-for-player 2-6), with a monstrous seven game series of 39-23 .559 (in a post-season NBA that shot .420 overall.) Then, outgunned 8-3 by HOFers, and with his two HOF players (one being a rookie, playing part-time and out of position), who shoot .326 and .258 respectively, he then wipes the floor with RUSSELL in a 4-1 series loss, but with the last two losses in the waning seconds.

More on that 48-32 mark in a moment. But think about this...Wilt's second best player in that 63-64 season was the great Tom Meschery.

Sick for half a season, Wilt, as always, plays nearly every minute and while his team goes 10-28, he has virtually zero help.

He is traded mid-season for three players and a boat-load of cash to a team that went 34-46 the year before, and they finish 40-40. Then, in the first round of the playoffs, he single-handedly wipes out an Oscar led 48-32 Royals team with far more overall talent. Then, in the EDF's, he proceeds to put on the biggest beatdown ever administered to a GOAT player, and his 62-18 Celtic team at the peak of their dynasty. All he does is murder Russell with a 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, .555 FG% series (in a post-season NBA that shot .429 overall), and takes that 40-40 team to a game seven, one point loss against one of the GOAT teams in NBA history.

Over the course of the next three seasons, Wilt leads the Sixers to the best record in the league each year, and an overwhelming title in '67, in a post-season in which he and his team just crushed the eight-time defending Celtics, and in yet another monumental waxing of a GOAT player.

How about his former team, the Warriors. After Wilt was traded, they moved Thurmond into the pivot, where he would become a HOF center, and the third greatest defensive center in NBA history (behind Russell and Wilt.) However, all he can do is lead that Warrior team to a 7-36 record.

Which allows the Warriors to draft Rick Barry, who would go on to have a HOF career. Guess what...Thurmond and Barry go 35-45 (while Wilt leads the Sixers to a 55-25 record.)

The Warriors add players like Jeff Mullins, and Clyde Lee. Meschery is now their SEVENTH best player (with roughly the SAME scoring and effciency he had with Wilt in '64.) Thurmond had the greatest season of his career (finishing second in the MVP voting), and Barry explodes for a league-leading 35.6 ppg. With all of that firepower, the Warriors go 44-37.

Think about that. The Warriors replaced Wilt with TWO HOFers, added a TON of talent, and STILL couldn't put up the same record that Wilt led his Warriors to in '64 (with FAR less help.)

But, it gets even better. Wilt leads his 68-13 Sixers into the Finals against those 44-37 Warriors, and destroys Thurmond and Co. in a 4-2 series win. How dominant was Wilt against a Thurmond who routinely castrated a PEAK Kareem's offense in the post season a few years later? He outscored Thurmond in five of the six games; he out-assisted Thurmond in five of the six game; he outrebounded Thurmond in five of the six games; and he outshot Thurmond from the field in EVERY game!

And, in the clinching game six win, Chamberlain outscored Nate, 24-12, outrebounded Nate, 23-22, and outshot Thurmond from the field by an 8-13 to 4-13 margin. Incidently, Wilt ousthot Thurmond from the floor in that series by a staggering .560 to .343 margin. Think about that. An aging Thurmond held a peak Kareem to three straight playoff series of .486, .405, and .428 shooting!

THAT should give idiots like yourself a little bit better perspective on Wilt's actual impact in those years.

[Wade's Rings]

Everyone likes to trash Wilt, but I saw him play. I saw him as the MDE. Everyone needs good teammates to have great teams and when Wilt had good teammates his teams were dominate because of him. Put any one else on those teams in place of him and they would not have been near as good. People really need to just quit being STUPID. Check the record book people.

Didn't the guy lose multiple Finals with Jerry West & Elgin Baylor? His PPG took a huge drop off in some series.

[LAZERUSS]

Didn't the guy lose multiple Finals with Jerry West & Elgin Baylor? His PPG took a huge drop off in some series.

Yep...two.

In one Baylor shot .397 from the field, which included games in three losses of shooting 2-12 (and 1-6 from the line), 4-18, and in a game seven, two point loss, of 8-22.

West was brilliant, albeit, had the incompetent coach, VBK, involved Wilt more in the offense, and not benched him in the last five minutes of that game seven loss, LA likely would have won that series.

In the next post-season, the Lakers' new coach, Joe Mullaney (VBK was basically fired immediately after that game seven debacle), smartly made Baylor a third-option and he was a decent player. West was again brilliant...until the last game of the Finals, when he couldn't hit a shot to save his life, committed several TOs, and was just butchered by Walt Frazier.

Meanwhile, a Wilt who was just four months removed from major knee surgery, was overall, the best Laker player in that series, putting up a 23 ppg, 24 rpg .625 FG% Finals, which included a "must-win" game six of 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. And he was the ONLY Laker to play well in game seven, putting up a 21 point, on 10-16 shooting, 24 rebound game.

That was it.

Neither West, nor Baylor played in the '71 post-season, and while Wilt outplayed a peak Kareem, it wasn't enough, in a 4-1 series loss.

Baylor was done, and he was forced out early in the '72 season.

HWilt chopped a peak Kareem down in the '72 WCF's, holding him to .414 shooting in the last four games, and then led his team to a come-from-behind clinching game six win on the road, badly outplaying Kareem down thee stretch.

In the '72 Finals, in which West shot .325, Wilt dominated the entire series, including a monster clinching game five of 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, 29 rebounds (the entire NY team had 39), and 8 blocks...en route to winning the FMVP and leading LA to their first-ever title.


In Wilt's final season, an injured West once again blew chunks in the Finals, including the clinching game five loss of 5-17 shooting. Meanwhile, in Wilt's LAST game of his career, he put up a 23 point, on 9-16 shooting, 21 rebound game.

[Wade's Rings]

@lazeruss Explain Wilt's shameless statpadding seen in this video @4:35-7:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCX2bEBPABQ

[LAZERUSS]

@lazeruss Explain Wilt's shameless statpadding seen in this video @4:35-7:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCX2bEBPABQ


Chamberlain BADLY outplayed Russell in game one. No doubt about it...despite the score. BTW, the score at halftime was 50-35 and was still very much in doubt.

Game 1 numbers:

Russell: 16 points, on 7-22 FG/FGA and 2/4 FT/FTA, with 30 rebounds.
Wilt: 33 points, on 13-25 FG/FGA, and 7-12 FT/FTA, with 31 rebounds.

Wilt's TEAMMATES shot...get this...20-85 from the field in that game..or .235 from the field.

Wilt outplayed Russell by a 4-2-1 margin in that series, and in his "wins" he demolished Russell. How about game two:

Russell: 9 points, on 4-14 FG/FGA, and 1-2 FT/FTA, with 20 rebounds.
Wilt: 42 points, on 16-31 FG/FGA, and 10-17 FT/FTA, with 37 rebounds.


The '70 Finals? All you need to know is this...

Wilt had MAJOR KNEE SURGERY just four months prior, and was nowhere near 100%. Furthermore, against a HEALTHY Reed, the two played to a draw in the first four games, and then Wilt was abusing Reed in the fifth game when he went down with his leg injury.

After that, it was ALL Chamberlain, despite playing on one leg. And BTW, did you notice the Knicks SWARMING Wilt whenever he got the ball. AND, Wilt didn't shoot 2-7 against him one-on-one in the first half, but rather 3-6. Furthermore, Reed fouled him on four other occasions.

Incidently, a HEALTHY Wilt and Reed played in two H2H games in the prior season.


Reed came in second in the MVP voting in '69. His Knicks went 54-28 (just behind Wilt's Lakers, who went 55-27.) However, the Knicks conducted a mid-season trade in which they shipped out Bellamy in return for DeBusschere, and the results were a 36-11 record after the deal.

Reed's numbers were excellent all season (21.1 ppg, 14.5 rpg, 2.3 apg, and on a .521 FG%.) He was also second team all-defense. But after the trade, Reed averaged 24.3 ppg and 15.6 rpg.

However, Wilt's Lakers enjoyed a 5-1 W-L record against those Knicks, including a 2-0 mark when Reed was their center. In their entire seasonal H2H's, covering all six games (again, with Bellamy at center in four of them), Reed averaged 15.0 ppg and 12 rpg, while Wilt averaged 23.7 ppg, 22.3 rpg, and shot an amazing .712 from the field. In their two H2H's when it was Reed vs. Wilt, Reed averaged 20.0 ppg and 9.5 rpg, while Wilt averaged 28.0 ppg, 22.0 rpg, and shot an eye-popping .688 from the floor. Clearly, Wilt dominated Reed in their career H2H's before his knee surgery, and this was yet another example.

So basically:

Willis Reed vs Wilt in 2 regular season H2H's:

(Reed took over the center position after Bellamy was traded in mid-season)

Reed: 20.0 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 3.0 apg, .459 FG%
Wilt: 28.0 ppg, 22.0 rpg, 4.0 apg, .688 FG%

And if you want to go back to a prime "scoring" Wilt...how about their 64-65 H2H's:

Reed: 12 H2H's: 22.9 ppg, 17.0 rpg (2 known H2H's), .333 FG% (1 known game.)

Wilt: In those 12 H2H's: 38.6 ppg, 21.2 rpg, .532 FG% (8 known games.)

Wilt just shelled Reed in the majority of their 12 H2H's. He outscored him 11-1, including margins of 37-22, 29-12, 46-25, 52-23, 41-8, and 58-28. He also had rebounding games of 28, 32, and 32 against Reed.

A PRIME Chamberlain just carpet-bombed Reed.




Do some actual research next time. ...PLEASE.

[Wade's Rings]

Chamberlain BADLY outplayed Russell in game one. No doubt about it...despite the score. BTW, the score at halftime was 50-35 and was still very much in doubt.

Game 1 numbers:

Russell: 16 points, on 7-22 FG/FGA and 2/4 FT/FTA, with 30 rebounds.
Wilt: 33 points, on 13-25 FG/FGA, and 7-12 FT/FTA, with 31 rebounds.

Wilt's TEAMMATES shot...get this...20-85 from the field in that game..or .235 from the field.

Wilt outplayed Russell by a 4-2-1 margin in that series, and in his "wins" he demolished Russell. How about game two:

Russell: 9 points, on 4-14 FG/FGA, and 1-2 FT/FTA, with 20 rebounds.
Wilt: 42 points, on 16-31 FG/FGA, and 10-17 FT/FTA, with 37 rebounds.

He played well in his wins(at least statistically I didn't get to watch the games). Still what about Games 3 or 5?



The '70 Finals? All you need to know is this...

Wilt had MAJOR KNEE SURGERY just four months prior, and was nowhere near 100%. Furthermore, against a HEALTHY Reed, the two played to a draw in the first four games, and then Wilt was abusing Reed in the fifth game when he went down with his leg injury.

After that, it was ALL Chamberlain, despite playing on one leg. And BTW, did you notice the Knicks SWARMING Wilt whenever he got the ball. AND, Wilt didn't shoot 2-7 against him one-on-one in the first half, but rather 3-6. Furthermore, Reed fouled him on four other occasions.

Down 27 he statpads to 21pts on 63% shooting.


Incidently, a HEALTHY Wilt and Reed played in two H2H games in the prior season.



So basically:

Willis Reed vs Wilt in 2 regular season H2H's:

(Reed took over the center position after Bellamy was traded in mid-season)

Reed: 20.0 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 3.0 apg, .459 FG%
Wilt: 28.0 ppg, 22.0 rpg, 4.0 apg, .688 FG%

And if you want to go back to a prime "scoring" Wilt...how about their 64-65 H2H's:

Reed: 12 H2H's: 22.9 ppg, 17.0 rpg (2 known H2H's), .333 FG% (1 known game.)

Wilt: In those 12 H2H's: 38.6 ppg, 21.2 rpg, .532 FG% (8 known games.)

Wilt just shelled Reed in the majority of their 12 H2H's. He outscored him 11-1, including margins of 37-22, 29-12, 46-25, 52-23, 41-8, and 58-28. He also had rebounding games of 28, 32, and 32 against Reed.

A PRIME Chamberlain just carpet-bombed Reed.




Do some actual research next time. ...PLEASE.

Your Lion Essays still aren't answering his statpadding :confusedshrug:

[LAZERUSS]

He played well in his wins(at least statistically I didn't get to watch the games). Still what about Games 3 or 5?




Down 27 he statpads to 21pts on 63% shooting.



Your Lion Essays still aren't answering his statpadding :confusedshrug:


I would say that Russell slightly outplayed Wilt in game's three and five...the only two in the series in which he did:

Game 3:

Russell: 31 points, on 12-26 FG/FGA, and 7-9 FT/FTA, with 31 rebounds.
Wilt: 35 points, on 14-32 FG/FGA. and 7-12 FT/FTA, with 29 rebounds.

Game 5:

Russell: 29 points, on 10-25 FG/FGA, and 9-13 FT/FTA, with 26 rebounds.
Wilt: 30 points, on 11-27 FG/FGA, and 8-10 FT/FTA, with 14 rebounds (very few games in their 143 career H2H's in which Russell out-rebounded Wilt by that margin.)


As for game seven of the '70 Finals.

Wilt in the first half: 11 points, on 5-10 from the field, and 1-8 from the line, with 12 rebounds. His teammates collectively shot .333 in the first half.

BTW, Wilt's 1-11 from the line had zero bearing on the out-come.