Is Michael Jordan the only athlete that gets held to a different set of standards?

[DaHeezy]

I feel Jordan more than any athlete has a different set of standards. Where all his failures and short comings are given excuses and are never recognized along side his accomplishments. Even his shortcomings within his own personal life seem to be stricken from public record.
Do you agree?

[plowking]

What failures and shortcomings? I think you should shut up, and we'll forget we ever had this conversation.

[DaHeezy]

What failures and shortcomings? I think you should shut up, and we'll forget we ever had this conversation.
Exactly my point

[FKAri]

MJ was playing with house money. Back then no one thought a SG could have that kind of an impact. And to be honest with the rules at the time I doubt any other SG would. Then on top of that he showed you could actually have a dynasty team built around a SG with no all time great big man even on it.

In short: MJ is overrated but hes still the GOAT

[LeBird]

Yes, in sports he's treated like he's by far the best in the sport when in reality he's just one of a few candidates that can claim the GOAT spot.

Guys like Gretzky, Bradman and even Messi are much freakier as talents than Jordan ever was. Yet he's a cartoon hero - figuratively and literally - for people who buy the drinks/food/shoes he endorses while they watch re-runs of the Bulls' finals.

[hateraid]

MJ was playing with house money. Back then no one thought a SG could have that kind of an impact. And to be honest with the rules at the time I doubt any other SG would. Then on top of that he showed you could actually have a dynasty team built around a SG with no all time great big man even on it.

In short: MJ is overrated but hes still the GOAT
How can that be said when the perimeter player had great notoriety before him? Dr.J, Bird, Magic, were considered better than any dominant big man in that era. What Jordan accomplished wasn't unheard of. If what Jordan did as a SG was a spectacular achievement, then what Magic did as a PG is even more impressive

[G0ATbe]

That's what happens when a players overrated to the extent he was.

[Dro]

Because he's the GOAT. Don't think Ill see anyone better in my lifetime....

[sd3035]

Yes, in sports he's treated like he's by far the best in the sport when in reality he's just one of a few candidates that can claim the GOAT spot.

Guys like Gretzky, Bradman and even Messi are much freakier as talents than Jordan ever was. Yet he's a cartoon hero - figuratively and literally - for people who buy the drinks/food/shoes he endorses while they watch re-runs of the Bulls' finals.
who the fukk is that?

[FKAri]

Because he's the GOAT. Don't think Ill see anyone better in my lifetime....

How you posting when you dead doe?

[Magic 32]

Bird = 7 (1980, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1988, 1990, 1991)

Duncan = 6 (2001, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2011, 2012)

Kareem = 5 (1973, 1974, 1977, 1981, 1986)

Shaq = 5 (1994, 1995, 2004, 2005, 2010)

Wilt = 5 (1961, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1973)

Oscar = 4 (1962, 1965, 1973, 1974)

Magic = 4 (1981, 1986, 1990, 1996)

Lebron = 3 (2009, 2010, 2011)

Hakeem = 2 (1985, 1987)

Kobe = 2 (2004, 2011)

Russell = 1 (1958)

MJ = 0

[Duncan21formvp]

Bird = 7 (1980, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1988, 1990, 1991)

Duncan = 6 (2001, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2011, 2012)

Kareem = 5 (1973, 1974, 1977, 1981, 1986)

Shaq = 5 (1994, 1995, 2004, 2005, 2010)

Wilt = 5 (1961, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1973)

Oscar = 4 (1962, 1965, 1973, 1974)

Magic = 4 (1981, 1986, 1990, 1996)

Lebron = 3 (2009, 2010, 2011)

Hakeem = 2 (1985, 1987)

Kobe = 2 (2004, 2011)

Russell = 1 (1958)

MJ = 0

Exactly MJ never lost with HCA.

[inclinerator]

Bird = 7 (1980, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1988, 1990, 1991)

Duncan = 6 (2001, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2011, 2012)

Kareem = 5 (1973, 1974, 1977, 1981, 1986)

Shaq = 5 (1994, 1995, 2004, 2005, 2010)

Wilt = 5 (1961, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1973)

Oscar = 4 (1962, 1965, 1973, 1974)

Magic = 4 (1981, 1986, 1990, 1996)

Lebron = 3 (2009, 2010, 2011)

Hakeem = 2 (1985, 1987)

Kobe = 2 (2004, 2011)

Russell = 1 (1958)

MJ = 0

what?

[Magic 32]

what?

try

[oarabbus]

who the fukk is that?


guy who shits on Jordan, relative to his own sport

[atljonesbro]

It's mainly a marketing thing. These guys on the forum who act that way got absolutely manipulated by the media to worship him like he's a sort of God. They never admit that's the reason but it really is. Also lack of mainstream Internet and social media disallowed people to form their own opinion because they only saw the worship agenda put out by the media. So really these 80s 90s guys who watched him as a kid basically got brainwashed and it still lingers even as they grew older

[KungFuJoe]

Jordan is simply the GOAT. As great as Lebron is playing, he just hasn't shown the consistency that Jordan did.

I mean 6-0 and there was no let down, no questions on who the man was. Not even a game 7. Pure dominance.

[Magic 32]

Jordan never lost when he didn't have an excuse.

When he retired in 98 there was not a single team or player that had a moral victory or advantage against him.

[hateraid]

Jordan is simply the GOAT. As great as Lebron is playing, he just hasn't shown the consistency that Jordan did.

I mean 6-0 and there was no let down, no questions on who the man was. Not even a game 7. Pure dominance.
What does the question in OP have anything to do with Lebron?

[riseagainst]

michael jordan also never faced a team even remotely as good as the GS warriors in the finals. He also never played with the quality of teammates (or lack of) as lebron currently is in the finals.

[OldSchoolBBall]

michael jordan also never faced a team even remotely as good as the GS warriors in the finals. He also never played with the quality of teammates (or lack of) as lebron currently is in the finals.

The Suns, Blazers, '98 Jazz and Sonics were all better than these Warriors. Get real. They are a paper tiger and Cleveland is exposing that.

[Dro]

michael jordan also never faced a team even remotely as good as the GS warriors in the finals. He also never played with the quality of teammates (or lack of) as lebron currently is in the finals.
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Some of you dudes try way too hard.....

[Beastmode88]

MJ is the GOAT of basketball not much can be said about his other actions.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

When you have the greatest combination of stats, titles, individual accolades and highlights, the standard should be set high.

I mean if we're comparing him to LeBron...who has accomplished less...surely you could see why.

[riseagainst]

The Suns, Blazers, '98 Jazz and Sonics were all better than these Warriors. Get real. They are a paper tiger and Cleveland is exposing that.

:roll:

Bro. If Cleveland is playing the Suns, Blazers, 98 Jazz or 96 sonics right now he'd average 50-15-15 on >50fg% and 60%TS. Those teams were high paced and they could not stop lebron from doing anything. Plus today's defenses are way more sophisticated to do anything to slow down leKING.

[Magic 32]

Plus today's defenses are way more sophisticated to do anything to slow down leKING.

We let him go one-on-one. -Steve Kerr

The complexity makes my head hurt.

[smoovegittar]

Absence makes the heart grow fonder. Imagine the standard our kids will hold LeBron to. Jordan had his warts and all...plus the different era. Can't keep a group of players together like that anymore.

[Magic 32]

Absence makes the heart grow fonder. Imagine the standard our kids will hold LeBron to. Jordan had his warts and all...plus the different era. Can't keep a group of players together like that anymore.

The public does not respect or pay attention to this NBA era the same way they did in the 90's.

So the greatest players of this era will never get the same respect. Ever

It's like heavyweight boxing right now. Klitschko could win another 200 fights and nobody would put him over Ali or Foreman.

I think Orson Welles described the phenomenon....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dAGcorF1Vo&t=29m45s

[TheReal Kendall]

It's mainly a marketing thing. These guys on the forum who act that way got absolutely manipulated by the media to worship him like he's a sort of God. They never admit that's the reason but it really is. Also lack of mainstream Internet and social media disallowed people to form their own opinion because they only saw the worship agenda put out by the media. So really these 80s 90s guys who watched him as a kid basically got brainwashed and it still lingers even as they grew older

False.

I hated MJ growing and I still don't like him to this day but I can't deny his skill on the court.

He is the greatest imo. What separates him from players now for me is that I would root against him and he would always make the big shot or play to crush my little heart growing up.

You can't say that about the players nowadays because their teammates always bail them.

[andgar923]

But MJ was criticized and held to a different standard.

The thing is, he proved his critics wrong time and time again.

When MJ came in, critics: He won't be a good player in this league... wins rookie of the year

Critics... he doesn't play defense: Wins Defensive Player of the Year setting records along the way

Critics... He doesn't pass the ball: Averaged a triple double as a PG for damn near 14 games in a row.

Critics... He doesn't make his teammates better: He makes Pip and Grant into all star players, his leadership sets up the Bulls to win with and without him.

Critics... A scoring champ will never win a title: He won 6 scoring titles at the same time he won six rings

Critics... he can't shoot: drops 6 pointers in NBA Finals game

Critics... No team has ever won 3 in a row: 3Peat

Critics... He will never win more than Magic: 6 rings

So what else is left to criticize him about?

He showed up when it mattered the most. He was his team's best player, he elevated his game like no other in the crunch time, his triumphs were so glorious that it overshadows the retarded '1-9' bullshit.

Even when the Bulls lost during the early years, it wasn't due to MJ. Hell, he used to get standing ovations when he came out, even the opposing teams gave him his props. They didn't lose because of him.

He also didn't leave.

He also didn't have Pip traded.

He also didn't choke in the clutch.

He also didn't lose a home court advantage.

He also didn't lose when favored

And to be frank, he OVER ACHIEVED even when he lost in the playoffs, since the Bulls were usually the underdog and were picked to get killed. But MJ gave them hope, MJ elevated his team's play, made them tougher, made them smarter, made them better.

No empty stats by MJ, he earned everything and did everything for his team to win.

He excelled when expected, and surprised when he wasn't.

That is why he's considered the GOAT

Not that he's held to a different standard. It's that players are held to HIS standards that he set. So obviously it doesn't seem fair, and it appears to some of you youngiots that he's teflon.

[Angel Face]

But MJ was criticized and held to a different standard.

The thing is, he proved his critics wrong time and time again.

When MJ came in, critics: He won't be a good player in this league... wins rookie of the year

Critics... he doesn't play defense: Wins Defensive Player of the Year setting records along the way

Critics... He doesn't pass the ball: Averaged a triple double as a PG for damn near 14 games in a row.

Critics... He doesn't make his teammates better: He makes Pip and Grant into all star players, his leadership sets up the Bulls to win with and without him.

Critics... A scoring champ will never win a title: He won 6 scoring titles at the same time he won six rings

Critics... he can't shoot: drops 6 pointers in NBA Finals game

Critics... No team has ever won 3 in a row: 3Peat

Critics... He will never win more than Magic: 6 rings

So what else is left to criticize him about?

He showed up when it mattered the most. He was his team's best player, he elevated his game like no other in the crunch time, his triumphs were so glorious that it overshadows the retarded '1-9' bullshit.

Even when the Bulls lost during the early years, it wasn't due to MJ. Hell, he used to get standing ovations when he came out, even the opposing teams gave him his props. They didn't lose because of him.

He also didn't leave.

He also didn't have Pip traded.

He also didn't choke in the clutch.

He also didn't lose a home court advantage.

He also didn't lose when favored

And to be frank, he OVER ACHIEVED even when he lost in the playoffs, since the Bulls were usually the underdog and were picked to get killed. But MJ gave them hope, MJ elevated his team's play, made them tougher, made them smarter, made them better.

No empty stats by MJ, he earned everything and did everything for his team to win.

He excelled when expected, and surprised when he wasn't.

That is why he's considered the GOAT

Not that he's held to a different standard. It's that players are held to HIS standards that he set. So obviously it doesn't seem fair, and it appears to some of you youngiots that he's teflon.

Well said! :applause:

[dreamwarrior]

I hated Jordan when he played, just like I hate Lebron now. But when its all said and done, those are the two greatest players to ever play the game. Great perimeter players are the greatest because they have so much more to do while running more than any other position.

[Magic 32]

Great perimeter players are the greatest because they have so much more to do while running more than any other position.

https://thekobebeef.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/tim_duncan_game_over.gif

[Bernkastel]

Media hype and, generally, GOATs tend to have an added mystique to them.

Jordan was in the 90's, which got him a lot of exposure with tv hype. A lot of other sports GOATs are either in less popular sports in America (hockey, soccer) or came a long time ago (baseball, NFL).

Just the way it is. 96 isn't even that long ago, so he's still fresh.

[tmacattack33]

What failures and shortcomings? I think you should shut up, and we'll forget we ever had this conversation.

Well his loss in 1995 certainly gets swept under the rug.

Apparently, it was due to "rust". :oldlol:

[Magic 32]

Well his loss in 1995 certainly gets swept under the rug.

Apparently, it was due to "rust".

Too bad it's a great excuse.

[Sarcastic]

He got criticized all the time. He was called a ball hog early in his career. Then they said he would never lead a team to a title.

Remember this?

https://nbchardballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/michael-jordan-baseball-cover-si.jpg


If you think he wasn't criticized then either you have selective memory or are just ignorant.

[TheMan]

Exactly MJ never lost with HCA.
Every legendary GOAT level player has won as an underdog and lost as the favorite, except for Jordan. He's won as an underdog but NEVER lost as the favorite...meaning that he always closed the deal when it was expected him to do so. No one else can claim that:bowdown:

[LEFT4DEAD]

Jordan couldnt do shit till Magic and Bird got their health problems. He played in the worst era ever. There were multiple good teams with 1 superstar and rest role players.
I mean, Payton/Kemp, Stockton/Malone were just worse Clippers of this year. And then you have Olajuwon and Barkley leading their mediocre teams, young Shaq and Duncan just started playing, Knicks as today's Bulls and thats it.
His 6/6 record tells that he managed to win as a big time favourite, but his 1-9 record till Pippen came tells me that he couldnt do shit as underdog, and without an other all star.

For example:
Jordan >> Lebron while being the favourite to win it all
Lebron >>>>>>>> Jordan while being an underdog

[TheMan]

Jordan couldnt do shit till Magic and Bird got their health problems. He played in the worst era ever. There were multiple good teams with 1 superstar and rest role players.
I mean, Payton/Kemp, Stockton/Malone were just worse Clippers of this year. And then you have Olajuwon and Barkley leading their mediocre teams, young Shaq and Duncan just started playing, Knicks as today's Bulls and thats it.
His 6/6 record tells that he managed to win as a big time favourite, but his 1-9 record till Pippen came tells me that he couldnt do shit as underdog, and without an other all star.

For example:
Jordan >> Lebron while being the favourite to win it all
Lebron >>>>>>>> Jordan while being an underdog
:biggums: Quit basketball, you're clueless

[hateraid]

Too bad it's a great excuse.
Other players do not get held to those standards. In fact, if it was any other player, especially players like Lebron they woild he accused of giving up. Plus he came back to play 17 games in the regular season, not recovering from an injury with a clean bill of health. Any other player would have been held to that.

[hateraid]

But MJ was criticized and held to a different standard.

The thing is, he proved his critics wrong time and time again.

When MJ came in, critics: He won't be a good player in this league... wins rookie of the year

Critics... he doesn't play defense: Wins Defensive Player of the Year setting records along the way

Critics... He doesn't pass the ball: Averaged a triple double as a PG for damn near 14 games in a row.

Critics... He doesn't make his teammates better: He makes Pip and Grant into all star players, his leadership sets up the Bulls to win with and without him.

Critics... A scoring champ will never win a title: He won 6 scoring titles at the same time he won six rings

Critics... he can't shoot: drops 6 pointers in NBA Finals game

Critics... No team has ever won 3 in a row: 3Peat

Critics... He will never win more than Magic: 6 rings

So what else is left to criticize him about?

He showed up when it mattered the most. He was his team's best player, he elevated his game like no other in the crunch time, his triumphs were so glorious that it overshadows the retarded '1-9' bullshit.

Even when the Bulls lost during the early years, it wasn't due to MJ. Hell, he used to get standing ovations when he came out, even the opposing teams gave him his props. They didn't lose because of him.

He also didn't leave.

He also didn't have Pip traded.

He also didn't choke in the clutch.

He also didn't lose a home court advantage.

He also didn't lose when favored

And to be frank, he OVER ACHIEVED even when he lost in the playoffs, since the Bulls were usually the underdog and were picked to get killed. But MJ gave them hope, MJ elevated his team's play, made them tougher, made them smarter, made them better.

No empty stats by MJ, he earned everything and did everything for his team to win.

He excelled when expected, and surprised when he wasn't.

That is why he's considered the GOAT

Not that he's held to a different standard. It's that players are held to HIS standards that he set. So obviously it doesn't seem fair, and it appears to some of you youngiots that he's teflon.

You're essentially the example of what the OP was trying to get at. Not lumping any shortcomings or failures and cherry picking the achievements.

[LEFT4DEAD]

:biggums: Quit basketball, you're clueless
I hurt your little gay feelings towards MJ. Ohh Im sorry :oldlol:

[andgar923]

You're essentially the example of what the OP was trying to get at. Not lumping any shortcomings or failures and cherry picking the achievements.
do you read only what you want?

I listed what he was criticized for.

Shortcomings were erased due to his achievements, but it wasn't solely about his achievements, it was HOW he achieved them.

You f#ggots simply can't fathom how great he was. Simply can't accept that your fav player (whoever that may be) will never measure up.

All you guys have is a bunch of excuses and would'ves, could'ves, and should'ves... while we have 'did'.

As in... he 'did' win 6 rings in a row
he 'did' overcome his adversaries
He 'did' shut up his critics
He 'did' win in such glorious fashion that it appears to be a fantasy
He 'did' things that no other player has duplicated

And we also have 'didn'ts'.

He 'didn't' leave his team
He 'didn't' lose in the Finals
He 'didn't' lose cause he was gassed out, or sit cause he had a cramp, or get guarded one on one isolated for an entire post season and still shoot badly,

With MJ we know what he 'did' and what he 'didn't, all you guys have is excuses and an angle to knock him.

But ya'll attempts to bring kryptonite are weak.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

https://thekobebeef.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/tim_duncan_game_over.gif

:lol

[TheMan]

I hurt your little gay feelings towards MJ. Ohh Im sorry :oldlol:
No, you're post makes no sense and reading it has made ISH dumber :confusedshrug:

[hateraid]

do you read only what you want?

I listed what he was criticized for.

Shortcomings were erased due to his achievements, but it wasn't solely about his achievements, it was HOW he achieved them.

You f#ggots simply can't fathom how great he was. Simply can't accept that your fav player (whoever that may be) will never measure up.

All you guys have is a bunch of excuses and would'ves, could'ves, and should'ves... while we have 'did'.

As in... he 'did' win 6 rings in a row
he 'did' overcome his adversaries
He 'did' shut up his critics
He 'did' win in such glorious fashion that it appears to be a fantasy
He 'did' things that no other player has duplicated

And we also have 'didn'ts'.

He 'didn't' leave his team
He 'didn't' lose in the Finals
He 'didn't' lose cause he was gassed out, or sit cause he had a cramp, or get guarded one on one isolated for an entire post season and still shoot badly,

With MJ we know what he 'did' and what he 'didn't, all you guys have is excuses and an angle to knock him.

But ya'll attempts to bring kryptonite are weak.

Every successful player has had answered critics in some shape or form, just like every player has left questions unanswered. You just cherry picked the answers you wanted to highlight. Essentially making you a close minded homer and the prime example of OP.Saying that all critic was answered is very naive and narrow to say

[buddha]

It's mainly a marketing thing. These guys on the forum who act that way got absolutely manipulated by the media to worship him like he's a sort of God. They never admit that's the reason but it really is. Also lack of mainstream Internet and social media disallowed people to form their own opinion because they only saw the worship agenda put out by the media. So really these 80s 90s guys who watched him as a kid basically got brainwashed and it still lingers even as they grew older

that's literally the only reason people think LeBron is the GOAT.

[FKAri]

The public does not respect or pay attention to this NBA era the same way they did in the 90's.

So the greatest players of this era will never get the same respect. Ever

It's like heavyweight boxing right now. Klitschko could win another 200 fights and nobody would put him over Ali or Foreman.

I think Orson Welles described the phenomenon....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dAGcorF1Vo&t=29m45s

https://media.giphy.com/media/b9aScKLxdv0Y0/giphy.gif

[triangleoffense]

Jordan set the standard. Have to re-post his finals stats for the basement dwellers of this site.


YEAR G GS MPG FG% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG PPG
1991 5 5 44.0 .558 .848 1.6 5.0 6.6 11.4 2.80 1.40 31.2
1992 6 6 42.3 .526 .891 1.0 3.8 4.8 6.5 1.67 0.33 35.8
1993 6 6 45.7 .508 .694 2.5 6.0 8.5 6.3 1.67 0.67 41.0
1996 6 6 42.0 .415 .836 1.7 3.7 5.3 4.2 1.67 0.17 27.3
1997 6 6 42.7 .456 .764 1.5 5.5 7.0 6.0 1.17 0.83 32.3
1998 6 6 41.7 .427 .814 1.5 2.5 4.0 2.3 1.83 0.67 33.5

[andgar923]

Other players do not get held to those standards. In fact, if it was any other player, especially players like Lebron they woild he accused of giving up. Plus he came back to play 17 games in the regular season, not recovering from an injury with a clean bill of health. Any other player would have been held to that.

Are you f*ckin serious? :facepalm

MJ was criticized for even trying to play baseball. He was criticized and demonized for even retiring.

He was criticized and mocked when he came back for those 17 games, and guess what he did?

He won 3 times in a row after that!!!

That's how MJ do.

I mean, do you guys forget how often he was criticized? For gambling, for staying up too late, for wearing a gold chain, for his shoes not having white, for covering up the Reebok logo during the Olympics, for not attending White House events, for not being socio-political, for shooting too much, for doing too much advertising, for being too flashy, for being a bully towards his teammates, for wearing his shorts too long, the Nike factory conditions, for not talking to the media, for not sittng out when he could've scored more points, etc.etc.etc.

The list goes on and on

But some of you wouldn't know, cause ya'll weren't around.

[Hey Yo]

do you read only what you want?

I listed what he was criticized for.

Shortcomings were erased due to his achievements, but it wasn't solely about his achievements, it was HOW he achieved them.

You f#ggots simply can't fathom how great he was. Simply can't accept that your fav player (whoever that may be) will never measure up.

All you guys have is a bunch of excuses and would'ves, could'ves, and should'ves... while we have 'did'.

As in... he 'did' win 6 rings in a row
he 'did' overcome his adversaries
He 'did' shut up his critics
He 'did' win in such glorious fashion that it appears to be a fantasy
He 'did' things that no other player has duplicated

And we also have 'didn'ts'.

He 'didn't' leave his team
He 'didn't' lose in the Finals
He 'didn't' lose cause he was gassed out, or sit cause he had a cramp, or get guarded one on one isolated for an entire post season and still shoot badly,

With MJ we know what he 'did' and what he 'didn't, all you guys have is excuses and an angle to knock him.

But ya'll attempts to bring kryptonite are weak.
:lol He might have won 6 in a row if he didn't quit on his team (while still under contract) and try to be the next Bo Jackson.

He left his team twice with a chance to 4peat each time.

[jzek]

When you're the GOAT, you're entitled to have a different set of standards.

[jzek]

He left his team twice with a chance to 4peat each time.

Reinsdorf broke up the team because they were too old.

[Hey Yo]

Jordan set the standard. Have to re-post his finals stats for the basement dwellers of this site.
45 more MP by LeBron and he passes MJ in postseason minutes.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&y1=2015&p1=jamesle01&y2=2003&p2=jordami01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=#playoffs_totals::none

[andgar923]

:lol He might have won 6 in a row if he didn't quit on his team (while still under contract) and try to be the next Bo Jackson.

He left his team twice with a chance to 4peat each time.

How old are you?

Shouldn't you be going to bed?

[warriorfan]

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that OP never has watched Michael Jordan

[Hey Yo]

Reinsdorf broke up the team because they were too old.
In other words, it was going to get tougher for MJ to get to the Finals again?

[Hey Yo]

How old are you?

Shouldn't you be going to bed?
You're asking me?

I'm not that one that's trying to magically make 1994 and 1995 disappear from NBA history.

[triangleoffense]

45 more MP by LeBron and he passes MJ in postseason minutes.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&y1=2015&p1=jamesle01&y2=2003&p2=jordami01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=#playoffs_totals::none
lol thanks for proving my point

Jordan pretty much beats him on everything and he's 2 inches shorter and earned his alpha stats straight out of training camp.

[Roundball_Rock]

I feel Jordan more than any athlete has a different set of standards. Where all his failures and short comings are given excuses and are never recognized along side his accomplishments. Even his shortcomings within his own personal life seem to be stricken from public record.
Do you agree?

I agree. To those who don't, name another American athlete according the same degree of mythologization and an exemption from scrutiny. MJ is the only one whose record is presented as perfect. Every other legend in every other sport gets credit for his achievements but his weak points are raised as well.


Back then no one thought a SG could have that kind of an impact. And to be honest with the rules at the time I doubt any other SG would. Then on top of that he showed you could actually have a dynasty team built around a SG with no all time great big man even on it.

Entering the 80's the formula was you needed a great center but that started to change even before 1991 when Isiah and Magic won multiple rings as the best players on their teams as guards and Bird as a SF.

Jordan did not have an all-time great big man but neither did Isiah and Jordan benefitted by having the best perimeter player of his era, other than himself of course, on his team. That makes it easier to succeed as an exception--and don't forget Chicago never won without a good PF, whether Grant or Rodman. So you have an elite SF, a good PF along with a GOAT-caliber player at SG and it is not surprising they won many rings.



Exactly MJ never lost with HCA.



Too much is made of this. Jordan underachieved with poor rosters and got low seeds; the other guys often overachieved and got a higher seed only to get exposed in the playoffs.


He also never played with the quality of teammates (or lack of) as lebron currently is in the finals

Yes he did--in his first few years in the league...


Jordan was in the 90's, which got him a lot of exposure with tv hype. A lot of other sports GOATs are either in less popular sports in America (hockey, soccer) or came a long time ago (baseball, NFL).


Gretzky, Sampras were contemporaries of his as was Montana. P. Manning and Brady have come after in a much more popular sport. Woods and Federer came after him. None of these guys had anywhere near as much marketing behind him as Jordan did, though. Even today Jordan is mentioned on a daily basis on ESPN. :lol



Apparently, it was due to "rust".

Putting up better stats "rusty" in the 95' playoffs than he did in each of the playoffs in 1996-1998. :oldlol:


When you're the GOAT, you're entitled to have a different set of standards.

Name a GOAT in any other sport given the same free pass and mythological perfection.

A lot of the Jordan stanning that continues to this day is not about MJ per se but nostalgia for one's youth that MJ reminds people of.

[Sarcastic]

In other words, it was going to get tougher for MJ to get to the Finals again?

You're thinking of why LeBron left Miami.

[Prometheus]

I'll be honest. I can't say for sure if Jordan is actually better than Russell, Wilt, Baylor, West, Robertson, Kareem, Magic, or Bird. I never watched any of those guys play. Tiny bits of film and playoff games from those guys don't tell the story.

If you grew up watching it, and got to see how these players performed on a night-to-night basis, how they responded to the moments that you were there to see... that's how you know their greatness.

If you grew up watching Magic and Bird, you can tell me they were better than Jordan and I will only ask questions, not argue with you.

But if you lived through it and got to watch Jordan while this whole 6/6 thing was actually happening, then it's just kind of obvious that he's better than anyone else who's played since then.

It's only kids that never watched Jordan in Chicago who think anyone since has been better.

[TheMan]

In other words, it was going to get tougher for MJ to get to the Finals again?
Krause wanted to blow that team up. Reinsdorf is known as a cheapskate, he didn't want to keep spending millions to keep Jackson, Jordan, Pippen and Rodman around one more season, especially with a looming NBA strike coming up. At that stage of his career can you blame MJ for not sticking around for a rebuild, come on son.

In retrospect, if they would've kept that team together one more season, they would've had as good a shot as anyone to win that title considering a strike shortened season would've favored a veteran Bulls team. But that didn't happen and basically everyone but Kukoc was gone.

[Magic 32]

A lot of the Jordan stanning that continues to this day is not about MJ per se but nostalgia for one's youth that MJ reminds people of.

Well get ready for that yourself.

That argumentis self defeating.

[hateraid]

Are you f*ckin serious? :facepalm

MJ was criticized for even trying to play baseball. He was criticized and demonized for even retiring.

He was criticized and mocked when he came back for those 17 games, and guess what he did?

He won 3 times in a row after that!!!

That's how MJ do.

I mean, do you guys forget how often he was criticized? For gambling, for staying up too late, for wearing a gold chain, for his shoes not having white, for covering up the Reebok logo during the Olympics, for not attending White House events, for not being socio-political, for shooting too much, for doing too much advertising, for being too flashy, for being a bully towards his teammates, for wearing his shorts too long, the Nike factory conditions, for not talking to the media, for not sittng out when he could've scored more points, etc.etc.etc.

The list goes on and on

But some of you wouldn't know, cause ya'll weren't around.

You've missed the entire point. Those downfalls you've brought up over a short period of time gets swept under a rug. You defending it proves exactly what the OP is saying which is that the shortcomings are automatically erased from history to only focus on the highlights of his career.
It's not about degrading him, it's about bringing his stans down to earth. By God, Gretzky is greater at his sport and receives more scrutiny. But you won't get the point because you Jordaneers defend the legacy. I'll give you credit, you do a great job of it

[Hey Yo]

Krause wanted to blow that team up. Reinsdorf is known as a cheapskate, he didn't want to keep spending millions to keep Jackson, Jordan, Pippen and Rodman around one more season, especially with a looming NBA strike coming up. At that stage of his career can you blame MJ for not sticking around for a rebuild, come on son.

In retrospect, if they would've kept that team together one more season, they would've had as good a shot as anyone to win that title considering a strike shortened season would've favored a veteran Bulls team. But that didn't happen and basically everyone but Kukoc was gone.
He had no problem playing for Washington later on, even though it was to put butts in the seats. Could have done the same for the 1999 season.

[Hey Yo]

lol thanks for proving my point

Jordan pretty much beats him on everything and he's 2 inches shorter and earned his alpha stats straight out of training camp.
I wasn't trying to make a point. Just showing context.

[ArbitraryWater]

He got criticized all the time. He was called a ball hog early in his career. Then they said he would never lead a team to a title.

Remember this?

https://nbchardballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/michael-jordan-baseball-cover-si.jpg


If you think he wasn't criticized then either you have selective memory or are just ignorant.

lol, you take that magazine? :lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M-KCulzJqg 10.20

[hateraid]

I'll be honest. I can't say for sure if Jordan is actually better than Russell, Wilt, Baylor, West, Robertson, Kareem, Magic, or Bird. I never watched any of those guys play. Tiny bits of film and playoff games from those guys don't tell the story.

If you grew up watching it, and got to see how these players performed on a night-to-night basis, how they responded to the moments that you were there to see... that's how you know their greatness.

If you grew up watching Magic and Bird, you can tell me they were better than Jordan and I will only ask questions, not argue with you.

But if you lived through it and got to watch Jordan while this whole 6/6 thing was actually happening, then it's just kind of obvious that he's better than anyone else who's played since then.

It's only kids that never watched Jordan in Chicago who think anyone since has been better.

I'm 38 and I think some modern players are comparable and by the careers end can establish them selves as part with today's all time
elite. The difference with me is I am not subjective to who the greatest of all time is and view the greatest as a handful of people.

[andgar923]

You've missed the entire point. Those downfalls you've brought up over a short period of time gets swept under a rug. You defending it proves exactly what the OP is saying which is that the shortcomings are automatically erased from history to only focus on the highlights of his career.
It's not about degrading him, it's about bringing his stans down to earth. By God, Gretzky is greater at his sport and receives more scrutiny. But you won't get the point because you Jordaneers defend the legacy. I'll give you credit, you do a great job of it

Uh... who sweeps them under the rug?

His shortcomings are ALWAYS brought up.

They'r mentioned in any documentary that's made.

It's part of what made his story great, his will to improve, his motivation to succeed. That shit doesn't get swept under the rug.

Hell, there's even a commercial by MJ himself in which he mentions how many game winning shots he missed. :confusedshrug:

Go check out his videos, they ALL talk about his 'failures', they talk about the adversity he faced, the beating, the losing, the bad games, the physical and mental beatings he got and how he used that as a motivation.

Shit doesn't get swept under the rug.

It's actually the opposite.

Nobody's fault that Bron tends to end on the opposite end of the pole. :oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

Yes, in sports he's treated like he's by far the best in the sport when in reality he's just one of a few candidates that can claim the GOAT spot.

Guys like Gretzky, Bradman and even Messi are much freakier as talents than Jordan ever was. Yet he's a cartoon hero - figuratively and literally - for people who buy the drinks/food/shoes he endorses while they watch re-runs of the Bulls' finals.

THIS.

MJ has a solid case as the GOAT, but by no means is he head-and-shoulders above guys like KAJ, Magic, Russell, and Wilt. All four of them have legitimate claims as GOATS.

And, as far as peaks go, you can add Bird, Shaq, and Lebron (yes Lebron.) And perhaps even Duncan.

Basketball is a TEAM game, and the true greats play great. Winning, on the other hand, is dependent on several factors, like teammates, opposition, injuries, and even luck.

[LAZERUSS]

I agree. To those who don't, name another American athlete according the same degree of mythologization and an exemption from scrutiny. MJ is the only one whose record is presented as perfect. Every other legend in every other sport gets credit for his achievements but his weak points are raised as well.



Entering the 80's the formula was you needed a great center but that started to change even before 1991 when Isiah and Magic won multiple rings as the best players on their teams as guards and Bird as a SF.

Jordan did not have an all-time great big man but neither did Isiah and Jordan benefitted by having the best perimeter player of his era, other than himself of course, on his team. That makes it easier to succeed as an exception--and don't forget Chicago never won without a good PF, whether Grant or Rodman. So you have an elite SF, a good PF along with a GOAT-caliber player at SG and it is not surprising they won many rings.




Too much is made of this. Jordan underachieved with poor rosters and got low seeds; the other guys often overachieved and got a higher seed only to get exposed in the playoffs.



Yes he did--in his first few years in the league...



Gretzky, Sampras were contemporaries of his as was Montana. P. Manning and Brady have come after in a much more popular sport. Woods and Federer came after him. None of these guys had anywhere near as much marketing behind him as Jordan did, though. Even today Jordan is mentioned on a daily basis on ESPN. :lol



Putting up better stats "rusty" in the 95' playoffs than he did in each of the playoffs in 1996-1998. :oldlol:



Name a GOAT in any other sport given the same free pass and mythological perfection.

A lot of the Jordan stanning that continues to this day is not about MJ per se but nostalgia for one's youth that MJ reminds people of.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

BTW...you are spot-on on his "rusty" play in the '95 post-season. His numbers in that post-season were nearly identical to his '93 playoff run, and were superior to any post-season runs afterwards. If anything, MJ was the most rested, healthy, and refreshed player in the '95 playoffs.

[hateraid]

I agree. To those who don't, name another American athlete according the same degree of mythologization and an exemption from scrutiny. MJ is the only one whose record is presented as perfect. Every other legend in every other sport gets credit for his achievements but his weak points are raised as well.



Entering the 80's the formula was you needed a great center but that started to change even before 1991 when Isiah and Magic won multiple rings as the best players on their teams as guards and Bird as a SF.

Jordan did not have an all-time great big man but neither did Isiah and Jordan benefitted by having the best perimeter player of his era, other than himself of course, on his team. That makes it easier to succeed as an exception--and don't forget Chicago never won without a good PF, whether Grant or Rodman. So you have an elite SF, a good PF along with a GOAT-caliber player at SG and it is not surprising they won many rings.




Too much is made of this. Jordan underachieved with poor rosters and got low seeds; the other guys often overachieved and got a higher seed only to get exposed in the playoffs.



Yes he did--in his first few years in the league...



Gretzky, Sampras were contemporaries of his as was Montana. P. Manning and Brady have come after in a much more popular sport. Woods and Federer came after him. None of these guys had anywhere near as much marketing behind him as Jordan did, though. Even today Jordan is mentioned on a daily basis on ESPN. :lol



Putting up better stats "rusty" in the 95' playoffs than he did in each of the playoffs in 1996-1998. :oldlol:



Name a GOAT in any other sport given the same free pass and mythological perfection.

A lot of the Jordan stanning that continues to this day is not about MJ per se but nostalgia for one's youth that MJ reminds people of.

Andgar923, read this. It sums up exactly the point I was trying to make. Before before you do, read it with an open mind and no intentions of having to defend Jordan

[hateraid]

THIS.

MJ has a solid case as the GOAT, but by no means is he head-and-shoulders above guys like KAJ, Magic, Russell, and Wilt. All four of them have legitimate claims as GOATS.

And, as far as peaks go, you can add Bird, Shaq, and Lebron (yes Lebron.) And perhaps even Duncan.

Basketball is a TEAM game, and the true greats play great. Winning, on the other hand, is dependent on several factors, like teammates, opposition, injuries, and even luck.

Difference is the players you mentioned along side of Jordan always have their shortcomings pointed out whereas Jordan is perceived as flawless both as a player and a human being

[TheMan]

You've missed the entire point. Those downfalls you've brought up over a short period of time gets swept under a rug. You defending it proves exactly what the OP is saying which is that the shortcomings are automatically erased from history to only focus on the highlights of his career.
It's not about degrading him, it's about bringing his stans down to earth. By God, Gretzky is greater at his sport and receives more scrutiny. But you won't get the point because you Jordaneers defend the legacy. I'll give you credit, you do a great job of it
I don't understand what you're saying...are you complaining that everytime someone mentions Jordan on tv that they include that he was a bully to his teammates and a gambler :confusedshrug: Exactly what the hell do you want talking heads to mention everytime they talk about him? Like when the compare LeBron's current Finals PPG to MJ's the conversation should go like this..."well you know Jalen, MJ averaged 41 PPG vs the Suns in 93 but why was Jordan never an outspoken civil rights leader as the most popular black athlete of all time?"

Is that what you're bitching about :confusedshrug:

Jordan's warts are out there, I don't understand what's you're beef.

[smoovegittar]

The public does not respect or pay attention to this NBA era the same way they did in the 90's.

So the greatest players of this era will never get the same respect. Ever

It's like heavyweight boxing right now. Klitschko could win another 200 fights and nobody would put him over Ali or Foreman.

I think Orson Welles described the phenomenon....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dAGcorF1Vo&t=29m45s

My old ass has to respond here.

We didn't have all that ESPN crap or social media back then. "Trolls" did not exist. Guys didn't earn a living following a player around and reporting his every bowel movement. He would have suffered the same internet slamming if it were so

The NBA is larger than ever these days. Don't kid yourself.

LeBron will get plenty of respect after his career is over and he ascends into legend status.

Different era. I hardly remember Frazier or Monroe, so I keep my mouth shut regarding the stars of the past.

[ArbitraryWater]

MJ's case is alot clearer than Sampras, Federer, Montana, Manning or ****ing Tom Brady :lol

[Beastmode88]

Clearly MJ is the GOAT. He hasn't played in 13 years and he's still being talked about. #RENTFREE

[hateraid]

Uh... who sweeps them under the rug?

His shortcomings are ALWAYS brought up.

They'r mentioned in any documentary that's made.

It's part of what made his story great, his will to improve, his motivation to succeed. That shit doesn't get swept under the rug.

Hell, there's even a commercial by MJ himself in which he mentions how many game winning shots he missed. :confusedshrug:

Go check out his videos, they ALL talk about his 'failures', they talk about the adversity he faced, the beating, the losing, the bad games, the physical and mental beatings he got and how he used that as a motivation.

Shit doesn't get swept under the rug.

It's actually the opposite.

Nobody's fault that Bron tends to end on the opposite end of the pole. :oldlol:

Yet there are many more short comings get brought up which Jordan didn't succeed and you stans make up excuses for him.
I'd bring it up but you really don't get it. All those shortcoming you mention stans like you don't make him acvoutable for it, but yet will chastise others for way less. You've missed the whole point and it's really obvious

[LAZERUSS]

Clearly MJ is the GOAT. He hasn't played in 13 years and he's still being talked about. #RENTFREE

Ah...but much of this "talk" is no so glowing as it was just a few short years ago.

And I suspect that 10-15+ years from now, the next generation will begin comparing him to Cousy. A dinosaur that wouldn't make a college team.

[Magic 32]

We didn't have all that ESPN crap or social media back then. "Trolls" did not exist. Guys didn't earn a living following a player around and reporting his every bowel movement. He would have suffered the same internet slamming if it were so

The NBA is larger than ever these days. Don't kid yourself.

Overexposure in the media does not equate attention or cultural impact.

There was a mystic and size to the Jordan era.

No one will talk about Lebron like this when he retires...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5LCuTaM4ss&t=50m0s

[hateraid]

I don't understand what you're saying...are you complaining that everytime someone mentions Jordan on tv that they include that he was a bully to his teammates and a gambler :confusedshrug: Exactly what the hell do you want talking heads to mention everytime they talk about him? Like when the compare LeBron's current Finals PPG to MJ's the conversation should go like this..."well you know Jalen, MJ averaged 41 PPG vs the Suns in 93 but why was Jordan never an outspoken civil rights leader as the most popular black athlete of all time?"

Is that what you're bitching about :confusedshrug:

Jordan's warts are out there, I don't understand what's you're beef.

No, it goes beyond that. Simply put, EVERY player has shortcomings, Jordan just happens to be the least scrutinized. Sure the info is out there, nobody wants to recognize them. And I'm not focusing on his personal life. I'm talking career achievements. No other player has as many excuses for those shortcoming. It's not belittling him, it's just facts.

[TheMan]

Ah...but much of this "talk" is no so glowing as it was just a few short years ago.

And I suspect that 10-15+ years from now, the next generation will begin comparing him to Cousy. A dinosaur that wouldn't make a college team.
Most of it is coming from LeStans with a clear agenda to knock him down a peg or two...

[smoovegittar]

Overexposure in the media does not equate attention or cultural impact.

There was a mystic and size to the Jordan era.

No one will talk about Lebron like this when he retires...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5LCuTaM4ss&t=50m0s

So you're saying that forums like ISH and 24-7 media coverage do not impact attention. That in 20 years from now no one will talk of LeBron like they do MJ.

I couldn't disagree more.

[Hey Yo]

Most of it is coming from LeStans with a clear agenda to knock him down a peg or two...
It's not trying to knock him down, it's showing that he is after all human and had shortcomings and flaws.

Some on here act as if he played only 6 seasons, won 6 titles and rode off into the sunset.

[Beastmode88]

Ah...but much of this "talk" is no so glowing as it was just a few short years ago.

And I suspect that 10-15+ years from now, the next generation will begin comparing him to Cousy. A dinosaur that wouldn't make a college team.

Lol i doubt that.

[Magic 32]

So you're saying that forums like ISH and 24-7 media coverage do not impact attention.

Not at the same level no.

Just compare NBC ratings in 98 compared to ESPN and ABC right now.

And I'm sure ISH is small compared to Taylor Swift or One Direction boards.



in 20 years from now no one will talk of LeBron like they do MJ.


No. And as the video shows, they were talking about him like that when he had just retired.

[RedBlackAttack]

He's the gold standard. There's a reason people say "so and so" is the "Michael Jordan" of their sport. His name is now synonymous with being the best who has ever played their respective sport.

And, as someone who was keenly aware of him from the start of his career to the end, he earned every bit of it. I say that as someone who continually prayed for him to fail. When you're crushed by a guy enough times, there comes a point where you have to admit to yourself what you're seeing. No, you're not going to beat him and it doesn't matter what your team looks like or how hard they try.

Ultimately, his team is going to win and he'll make sure of it. I've never experienced anything like it in sports.

So, that's why he is held to a "different" standard. Because he was different. Ask the greats of today and they'll tell you the same thing.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

And I suspect that 10-15+ years from now, the next generation will begin comparing him to Cousy. A dinosaur that wouldn't make a college team.

No. MJ could actually dribble with his left hand.

[smoovegittar]

Not at the same level no.

Just compare NBC ratings in 98 compared to ESPN and ABC right now.

And I'm sure ISH is small compared to Taylor Swift or One Direction boards.



No. And as the video shows, they were talking about him like that when he had just retired.

I don't do ratings. When you beat something to death, you're gonna lose some audience. But not the fans.
ISH may not be large, but it's the largest group of NBA fans I've ever witnessed outside of a live game.
Maybe he needs to do a movie with Bugs.

Well, God willing we'll both be around to test your theory.

[hateraid]

It's not trying to knock him down, it's showing that he is after all human and had shortcomings and flaws.

Some on here act as if he played only 6 seasons, won 6 titles and rode off into the sunset.
It's the same typical Jordaneer that defend his legacy. If only Jesus' desciples could have defended him like they do, could have live 1000 more years.
But the point will be missed and continue to be. The Jordaneers don't realize we aren't here to slight him

[TheMan]

No, it goes beyond that. Simply put, EVERY player has shortcomings, Jordan just happens to be the least scrutinized. Sure the info is out there, nobody wants to recognize them. And I'm not focusing on his personal life. I'm talking career achievements. No other player has as many excuses for those shortcoming. It's not belittling him, it's just facts.
If by shortcomings you mean why it took him years to get to the Finals, just take a look at his roster and his competition. This isn't a shot at LeBron and I'm only mentioning him because he's today's greatest player, but switch LeBron to the 85 and 86 Bulls at MJ's same age, you honestly think he'd fare better against those Celtics? That team were proven champs and they had 5 HOFers with a legit GOAT player in his peak/prime. You guys love overrating GS but they are nothing compared to those Celtics. After that came another GOAT team, the Bad Boys Pistons...just check what he averaged in all those series and I dare you to claim it was MJ's fault they lost :rolleyes:

[Magic 32]

Well, God willing we'll both be around to test your theory.

:cheers:

[hateraid]

He's the gold standard. There's a reason people say "so and so" is the "Michael Jordan" of their sport. His name is now synonymous with being the best who has ever played their respective sport.

And, as someone who was keenly aware of him from the start of his career to the end, he earned every bit of it. I say that as someone who continually prayed for him to fail. When you're crushed by a guy enough times, there comes a point where you have to admit to yourself what you're seeing. No, you're not going to beat him and it doesn't matter what your team looks like or how hard they try.

Ultimately, his team is going to win and he'll make sure of it. I've never experienced anything like it in sports.

So, that's why he is held to a "different" standard. Because he was different. Ask the greats of today and they'll tell you the same thing.
Personally I'm not trying to argues he's not the greatest in this sport. But you don't think that his flaws are generally overlooked? That's what ultimately the point is.

[hateraid]

If by shortcomings you mean why it took him years to get to the Finals, just take a look at his roster and his competition. This isn't a shot at LeBron and I'm only mentioning him because he's today's greatest player, but switch LeBron to the 85 and 86 Bulls at MJ's same age, you honestly think he'd fare better against those Celtics? That team were proven champs and they had 5 HOFers with a legit GOAT player in his peak/prime. You guys love overrating GS but they are nothing compared to those Celtics. After that came another GOAT team, the Bad Boys Pistons...just check what he averaged in all those series and I dare you to claim it was MJ's fault they lost :rolleyes:
I really don't give a **** about Lebron at this point or have I ever in this thread. This isn't about him. You have done exactly what my point was is make an excuse for him. If he was truly as great than at least accept he couldn't beat Larry and hold other players accountable for the same standards. Again, failing to accept shortcomings. That's what this is about.

[TheMan]

He's the gold standard. There's a reason people say "so and so" is the "Michael Jordan" of their sport. His name is now synonymous with being the best who has ever played their respective sport.

And, as someone who was keenly aware of him from the start of his career to the end, he earned every bit of it. I say that as someone who continually prayed for him to fail. When you're crushed by a guy enough times, there comes a point where you have to admit to yourself what you're seeing. No, you're not going to beat him and it doesn't matter what your team looks like or how hard they try.

Ultimately, his team is going to win and he'll make sure of it. I've never experienced anything like it in sports.

So, that's why he is held to a "different" standard. Because he was different. Ask the greats of today and they'll tell you the same thing.
As a Bulls fan who has seen LeBron own us, I think I now know how it must've felt being a Cavs fan in the late 80s to mid 90s :(

What goes around, comes around :cheers:

[RedBlackAttack]

Personally I'm not trying to argues he's not the greatest in this sport. But you don't think that his flaws are generally overlooked? That's what ultimately the point is.
He was a human being. No one is perfect. You can go through all the greats and list flaws or weaknesses or whatever you want to call them.

But I will say that his career was as close to flawless as I think you'll ever see. And that's really the difference between him and a lot of the guys that are constantly compared to him (note: it's always guys being compared to him because, again, he's the gold standard).

I'm certain you can go through the tape now in retrospect and pick out little flaws here and there... of course. Over the course of 48 minute games in 82-game seasons and 15+ year careers, everyone is going to have flaws at some stage.

But it is the body of work he created which will always separate him, imo. I remember in the mid-80s, there was a large contingent of people who thought he was the best player in the league by 1987 and with the right supporting cast, he'd be winning titles. That was three years into his career and at the height of the Bird-Magic rivalry. But there was something different about this guy and it is hard to convey the feeling of watching him play live for those who didn't live through it, in real time.

He was like a tidal wave you could see coming from miles away. And, low and behold, what happens? He keeps getting better to the point where, by the late-80s, Magic Johnson who was still putting up 23/13/8 for a season was almost an afterthought in the NBA. That was the Jordan effect.

For him to be as freaking good as he was and go out and win the title in the last six full seasons that he played in Chicago, and to finish it off with the game-winning jumper in an iconic pose as the ball falls through the net... it was just perfect.

So, I don't think it was necessarily the person or even the player who is considered "perfect." Most reasonable people will admit the flaws if we get into an extended back-and-forth about his game. It was the career that was perfect and it is difficult for me to imagine someone replicating or exceeding it.

[RedBlackAttack]

As a Bulls fan who has seen LeBron own us, I think I now know how it must've felt being a Cavs fan in the late 80s to mid 90s :(

What goes around, comes around :cheers:
I'd be lying if I said that thought didn't cross my mind as I watched our series this year. :oldlol:

But, alas, Jordan is still very safe in my eyes. LeBron is unbelievable, but in a different way. Btw, and not to sidetrack the thread, but I attribute the Cavs playing the way they are right now with the toughness that they have demonstrated to having survived that bloodbath with the Bulls. We were not this team before that series ... and also there's no way in hell we win that series without Kyrie Irving (something the Cavs are currently doing in the Finals). I feel like the Cavs owe the Bulls for helping to turn them into this. :cheers:

[TheMan]

I really don't give a **** about Lebron at this point or have I ever in this thread. This isn't about him. You have done exactly what my point was is make an excuse for him. If he was truly as great than at least accept he couldn't beat Larry and hold other players accountable for the same standards. Again, failing to accept shortcomings. That's what this is about.
I wouldn't hold LeBron losing to GS with his depleated roster these Finals, nor do I hold it against Kobe losing in 08 to the Celtics, nor do I hold it against AI losing to the Shaq/Kobe Lakers etc...

I take into consideration strength of roster, performance ,injuries, age, strength of competition etc before I "hold something against" players when they lose, in other words...context :confusedshrug:

That's why I can't hold it against MJ for losing against those teams, especially since he performed individually well against them.

[TheMan]

I'd be lying if I said that thought didn't cross my mind as I watched our series this year. :oldlol:

But, alas, Jordan is still very safe in my eyes. LeBron is unbelievable, but in a different way. Btw, and not to sidetrack the thread, but I attribute the Cavs playing the way they are right now with the toughness that they have demonstrated to having survived that bloodbath with the Bulls. We were not this team before that series ... and also there's no way in hell we win that series without Kyrie Irving (something the Cavs are currently doing in the Finals). I feel like the Cavs owe the Bulls for helping to turn them into this. :cheers:
:( That's little of consolation but:cheers:

[Young X]

What are his biggest shortcomings and failures?

IMO, his biggest failure was his game 1 against Orlando in '95 after coming back from baseball where he had those turnovers and lost his team the game. Besides that...

The only year where he had a good team and didn't win was 1990 and they went all the way to game 7 of the ECF against the defending champs without homecourt as underdogs. He literally had a bad-mediocre team in every other year of his career.

Everytime he was supposed to win. He won. Never once lost with HCA or as the higher seeded team. There's no real letdowns or upsets like Lebron's '11 finals or Kobe's 2004 finals.

If you mean some people don't acknowledge that he had bad games or mediocre series then you're right. There ARE people who act like he did no wrong but he has the least amount of "failures" his on his resume out of all the greats.

[LAZERUSS]

What are his biggest shortcomings and failures?

IMO, his biggest failure was his game 1 against Orlando in '95 after coming back from baseball where he had those turnovers and lost his team the game. Besides that...

The only year where he had a good team and didn't win was 1990 and they went all the way to game 7 of the ECF against the defending champs without homecourt as underdogs. He literally had a bad-mediocre team in every other year of his career.

Everytime he was supposed to win. He won. Never once lost with HCA or as the higher seeded team. There's no real letdowns or upsets like Lebron's '11 finals or Kobe's 2004 finals.

If you mean some people don't acknowledge that he had bad games or mediocre series then you're right. There ARE people who act like he did no wrong but he has the least amount of "failures" his on his resume out of all the greats.

The thing is...his supporting casts in his championship runs were stellar. The MJ fans will try to downplay '94 and '95, but the reality was, that '94 team went 55-27, and lost a close seven game series in the ECSF's against a 56-26 Knicks team, that would lose a close seven game series against the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals (and outscored them in that Finals.)

Then, the very next season, MJ basically replaced Horace Grant, and then played as well in the '95 post-season, as he did in his '93 title run, and better than what he would play in his last three-peat...and yet, they were eliminated in six games by a Magic team that would get swept in the Finals.

And let's get real here...his supporting cast in his second three-peat was considerably better than in his first three-peat.

True, he won six of seven titles in that span...but let's not act like he was a miracle-worker doing it alone.

[Asukal]

The thing is...his supporting casts in his championship runs were stellar. The MJ fans will try to downplay '94 and '95, but the reality was, that '94 team went 55-27, and lost a close seven game series in the ECSF's against a 56-26 Knicks team, that would lose a close seven game series against the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals (and outscored them in that Finals.)

Then, the very next season, MJ basically replaced Horace Grant, and then played as well in the '95 post-season, as he did in his '93 title run, and better than what he would play in his last three-peat...and yet, they were eliminated in six games by a Magic team that would get swept in the Finals.

And let's get real here...his supporting cast in his second three-peat was considerably better than in his first three-peat.

True, he won six of seven titles in that span...but let's not act like he was a miracle-worker doing it alone.

When your GOAT candidate is the original choke artist you don't have a say in this. Go to bed grandpa. :whatever:

[LAZERUSS]

When your GOAT candidate is the original choke artist you don't have a say in this. Go to bed grandpa. :whatever:

Of course, this "choke artist" DOMINATED the GOAT winner. And I mean dominated.

But thanks for providing us with your worthless opinions. They are always good for a few laughs.

[Prometheus]

When your GOAT candidate is the original choke artist you don't have a say in this. Go to bed grandpa. :whatever:

Actually, to anyone with a bit of awareness, his opinion is much better and more valid than yours.

[Young X]

The thing is...his supporting casts in his championship runs were stellar. The MJ fans will try to downplay '94 and '95, but the reality was, that '94 team went 55-27, and lost a close seven game series in the ECSF's against a 56-26 Knicks team, that would lose a close seven game series against the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals (and outscored them in that Finals.)

Then, the very next season, MJ basically replaced Horace Grant, and then played as well in the '95 post-season, as he did in his '93 title run, and better than what he would play in his last three-peat...and yet, they were eliminated in six games by a Magic team that would get swept in the Finals.

And let's get real here...his supporting cast in his second three-peat was considerably better than in his first three-peat.

True, he won six of seven titles in that span...but let's not act like he was a miracle-worker doing it alone.Anyone who downplays his supporting cast is an idiot. He had a great supporting cast just like everybody else in the years that he won. They were good enough to still be a playoff team without him - it's just that when you add MJ they become historically great.

I already admitted that his '95 series against Orlando was probably his main failure. And there's no way that he played as well in '95 as he did in '93. He was definitely better in '93.

Looking through his career...can you honestly point out where he should have won but didn't?

[RedBlackAttack]

The thing is...his supporting casts in his championship runs were stellar. The MJ fans will try to downplay '94 and '95, but the reality was, that '94 team went 55-27, and lost a close seven game series in the ECSF's against a 56-26 Knicks team, that would lose a close seven game series against the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals (and outscored them in that Finals.)

Then, the very next season, MJ basically replaced Horace Grant, and then played as well in the '95 post-season, as he did in his '93 title run, and better than what he would play in his last three-peat...and yet, they were eliminated in six games by a Magic team that would get swept in the Finals.

And let's get real here...his supporting cast in his second three-peat was considerably better than in his first three-peat.

True, he won six of seven titles in that span...but let's not act like he was a miracle-worker doing it alone.
I've always been of the belief that we know the names all these years later of guys like Horace Grant, John Paxson, BJ Armstrong and whatever center was lucky enough to be in the mix on a Michael Jordan led team because they played with Michael Jordan.

Honestly, if you tried to tell someone in 1992, that someone 20 years later would be using Horace Grant as a way to temper those discussing Jordan's utter dominance over the league in those years, they would have either laughed out loud or stared at you like you are an alien... which may actually be appropriate considering you know the future. But I digress, Grant was a quality role player who contributed well on some really good / great teams. But he wasn't a great player. He was a very good player, but a lot of other guys in the league could have performed his role on those teams.

Jordan separated those teams from the rest and Jordan alone. That was certainly the consensus in 1991-93. I don't think time should change that.

[Asukal]

Actually, to anyone with a bit of awareness, his opinion is much better and more valid than yours.

You watched Wilt play? Me neither and neither did grandpa laz who as gaylauber a few years back had a different opinion of the 60's. :oldlol: :lol :roll:

But please do tell me again how valid his opinion is. :rolleyes:

[LAZERUSS]

Anyone who downplays his supporting cast is an idiot. He had a great supporting cast just like everybody else in the years that he won. They were good enough to still be a playoff team without him - it's just that when you add MJ they become historically great.

I already admitted that his '95 series against Orlando was probably his main failure. And there's no way that he played as well in '95 as he did in '93. He was definitely better in '93.

Looking through his career...can you honestly point out where he should have won but didn't?

His '93 post-season numbers...

35.1 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 6.0 apg, 2.1 spg, 0.9 bpg, .475 FG%, .805 FT%, .553 TS%


His '95 post-season numbers...

31.5 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 4.5 apg, 2.3 spg, 1.3 bpg, .484 FG%, .810 FT%, .557 TS%


His '96 post-season numbers...

30.7 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 4.1 apg, 1.8 spg, 0.3 bpg, .459 FG%, .818 FT%, .564 TS%


As for year's he should have won. We both agree '95.

The rest of his eight year run from '91 thru '98, he did win. BUT, and again, with outstanding rosters that likely could have challenged for a title without him.

However, in the rest of his career, and with lessor supporting casts...generally first round exits. He didn't do as much with lessor casts, as other greats like Kareem, Wilt, and Bird did.

[Young X]

However, in the rest of his career, and with lessor supporting casts...generally first round exits. He didn't do as much with lessor casts, as other greats like Kareem, Wilt, and Bird did.And they never did as much as Jordan with great casts.

See: 6 rings and 6 FMVP's, two 3 peats, 72 wins, 69 wins, 67 wins etc...

[LAZERUSS]

I've always been of the belief that we know the names all these years later of guys like Horace Grant, John Paxson, BJ Armstrong and whatever center was lucky enough to be in the mix because on a Michael Jordan led team because they played with Michael Jordan.

Honestly, if you tried to tell someone in 1992, that someone 20 years later would be using Horace Grant as a way to temper those discussing Jordan's utter dominance over the league in those years, they would have either laughed out loud or stared at you like you are an alien... which may actually be appropriate considering you know the future. But I digress, Grant was a quality role player who contributed well on some really good / great teams. But he wasn't a great player. He was a very good player, but a lot of other guys in the league could have performed his role on those teams.

Jordan separated those teams from the rest and Jordan alone. That was certainly the consensus in 1991-93. I don't think time should change that.

MJ didn't come close to winning a title until he had Pippen, Grant, Paxson, and a slew of role players who were good enough to challenge for a title without him. I'm sorry, but the '94 Bulls were as good as the champion Rockets. You won't convince me otherwise.

And again, his second three-peat rosters were even better. For instance, Ron Harper was a 20 ppg scorer before he went to Chicago. And his defense was among the best in the league. We all know about Rodman, who was the best rebounder in the league, and an elite defender, who could even guard Shaq if need be. Kerr was the best pure shooter in the league. The rest of those rosters had interchangeable players for nearly every situation.

I'll give MJ credit, he did better with great rosters, than virtually every other GOAT candidate not named Russell. But he also had as many great rosters, if not more, than the rest of the GOATs.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I've always been of the belief that we know the names all these years later of guys like Horace Grant, John Paxson, BJ Armstrong and whatever center was lucky enough to be in the mix on a Michael Jordan led team because they played with Michael Jordan.

Honestly, if you tried to tell someone in 1992, that someone 20 years later would be using Horace Grant as a way to temper those discussing Jordan's utter dominance over the league in those years, they would have either laughed out loud or stared at you like you are an alien... which may actually be appropriate considering you know the future. But I digress, Grant was a quality role player who contributed well on some really good / great teams. But he wasn't a great player. He was a very good player, but a lot of other guys in the league could have performed his role on those teams.

Jordan separated those teams from the rest and Jordan alone. That was certainly the consensus in 1991-93. I don't think time should change that.

Exactly. Great post.

[OldSchoolBBall]

MJ didn't come close to winning a title until he had Pippen, Grant, Paxson, and a slew of role players who were good enough to challenge for a title without him.

Err, this is nonsense. Grant/Pippen and company certainly could NOT have "challenged for a title" in '91 or '92, and probably not even in 1993. It took an extreme confluence of circumstances for them to even make the second round in 1994 - and had key Cavs players not been injured, they might have not have gotten out of the first round.

[LAZERUSS]

And they never did as much as Jordan with great casts.

See: 6 rings and 6 FMVP's, two 3 peats, 72 wins, 69 wins, 67 wins etc...

Nor did MJ ever beat team's like the 60's Celtics, the 80's Lakers, the '80's Celtics, or the '88-90 Pistons (who crumbled after that.) And please, don't bring up the '91 Lakers, who shouldn't have even made the Finals.

Sorry, but the teams that he won titles against were nothing spectacular. Again, his supporting casts were capable of challenging for a title without him.

[LAZERUSS]

Err, this is nonsense. Grant/Pippen and company certainly could NOT have "challenged for a title" in '91 or '92, and probably not even in 1993. It took an extreme confluence of circumstances for them to even make the second round in 1994 - and had key Cavs players not been injured, they might have not have gotten out of the first round.

You don't know that. What we do know, is that MJ didn't sniff a second round series until Pippen and Grant arrived. And we also know that, without him, they were as good as the champions in '94. Furthermore, with MJ basically replacing Grant in '95, they didn't perform as well as the '94 team in the post-season. Hell, the '95 Bulls without BOTH MJ and Grant went 34-31.

[Dr.J4ever]

3ball must be spinning and gyrating around in his cage right now like a wild animal.:lol

[LAZERUSS]

3ball must be spinning and gyrating around in his cage right now like a wild animal.:lol

Glad you popped in.

Let me ask you this...do ANY of MJ's teams beat the '83 Sixers?

[Dr.J4ever]

Glad you popped in.

Let me ask you this...do ANY of MJ's teams beat the '83 Sixers?

They won't have anyone to guard Malone. Not the early 90s version nor the late 90s version of the Bulls. Cheeks is better than any PG they ever had, and Toney would have held his own vs. Jordan, but MJ would have still posted 30 plus PPG.

Meanwhile, Doc might have outscored Pipp, but because Doc was showing some age that year, this might have been a wash. I like the 76ers bench better with Jones, Richardson, and Clemmon Johnson.

I think the 76ers were the much more balanced team with 3 main scorers in Toney, Erving, and Moses vs. MJ/Pipp, but it would have come down to who was more dominant, Moses or Jordan.

Of course I'm biased but I say Philly in 7.

[LAZERUSS]

They won't have anyone to guard Malone. Not the early 90s version nor the late 90s version of the Bulls. Cheeks is better than any PG they ever had, and Toney would have held his own vs. Jordan, but MJ would have still posted 30 plus PPG.

Meanwhile, Doc might have outscored Pipp, but because Doc was showing some age that year, this might have been a wash. I like the 76ers bench better with Jones, Richardson, and Clemmon Johnson.

I think the 76ers were the much more balanced team with 3 main scorers in Toney, Erving, and Moses vs. MJ/Pipp, but it would have come down to who was more dominant, Moses or Jordan.

Of course I'm biased but I say Philly in 7.

I'm not sure who would win with MJ's '96 Bulls, but the rest of his teams would probably not have beaten those Sixers, nor the mid-80's Lakers and Celtics.

That's why I don't rank MJ's rings as highly as other's do.

[Dr.J4ever]

People tend to forget that MJ played in what many acknowledged at the time as a weaker era relative to the 80s.

In the early 90s, expansion diluted the NBA, and not many internationals were bolstering lineups yet . Even until the end of the decade, you can objectively say that MJ's Bulls never faced a truly elite historical team.

[LAZERUSS]

People tend to forget that MJ played in what many acknowledged at the time as a weaker era relative to the 80s.

In the early 90s, expansion diluted the NBA, and not many internationals were bolstering lineups yet . Even until the end of the decade, you can objectively say that MJ's Bulls never faced a truly elite historical team.

:cheers:

[Dr.J4ever]

I'm not sure who would win with MJ's '96 Bulls, but the rest of his teams would probably not have beaten those Sixers, nor the mid-80's Lakers and Celtics.

That's why I don't rank MJ's rings as highly as other's do.

I agree.

MJ was great and probably the goat because of his will to win every Finals he was involved with, but to say those teams he faced could be compared to the battle between the Celtics/Lakers/76ers of the 80s is not credible.

This is like comparing Pacquaio/Mayweather battles vs. Ali/Frazier/Foreman/Norton. They're not comparable.

[KungFuJoe]

I agree.

MJ was great and probably the goat because of his will to win every Finals he was involved with, but to say those teams he faced could be compared to the battle between the Celtics/Lakers/76ers of the 80s is not credible.

This is like comparing Pacquaio/Mayweather battles vs. Ali/Frazier/Foreman/Norton. They're not comparable.

But you could compare Pac/Barrera/Morales/Marquez to Ali/Frazier/Foreman/Norton.

[OldSchoolBBall]

You don't know that. .

No, we do know that the Bulls w/o MJ would not have "challenged for a title" in 1991 or '92 at a minimum. Only idiots don't know that.

[LAZERUSS]

I agree.

MJ was great and probably the goat because of his will to win every Finals he was involved with, but to say those teams he faced could be compared to the battle between the Celtics/Lakers/76ers of the 80s is not credible.

This is like comparing Pacquaio/Mayweather battles vs. Ali/Frazier/Foreman/Norton. They're not comparable.

Again...

:cheers:

And yes, MJ has a strong case as THE GOAT, albeit, he is certainly not the only one.

[LAZERUSS]

No, we do know that. Only idiots don't know that.

And yet...zero proof to the contrary. How come?

Again..explain the following...

Why couldn't MJ get out of the 1st round until BOTH Pippen and Grant arrived? Wasn't even close in fact, going 1-9. And yet, the '94 Bulls, with basically scrubs replacing MJ at the last minute...went 55-27, and were a few points away from beating a team that would lose a close game seven in the Finals.

Then, that same team, without BOTH MJ and Grant went 34-31 in '95 before MJ arrived. And a fully refreshed MJ couldn't take the team as far as Grant had the year before. No one is claiming Grant was MJ, but c'mon...that was inexusable.

And of course, when they added a TON of talent to that '95 team...well, the rest is history. Hell, their '96-'98 teams likely would have won titles in a very weak NBA at the time, without him.

[KungFuJoe]

And yet...zero proof to the contrary. How come?

Again..explain the following...

Why couldn't MJ get out of the 1st round until BOTH Pippen and Grant arrived? Wasn't even close in fact, going 1-9. And yet, the '94 Bulls, with basically scrubs replacing MJ at the last minute...went 55-27, and were a few points away from beating a team that would lose a close game seven in the Finals.

Then, that same team, without BOTH MJ and Grant went 34-31 in '95 before MJ arrived. And a fully refreshed MJ couldn't take the team as far as Grant had the year before. No one is claiming Grant was MJ, but c'mon...that was inexusable.

And of course, when they added a TON of talent to that '95 team...well, the rest is history. Hell, their '96-'98 teams likely would have challenged for titles, without him.

MJ's supporting cast was god awful before Pippen and Grant. And you need a good coach, too.

And they beat some damn good teams. Portland with Drexler, Porter, Robinson. That team was stacked like crazy. Or the Suns with Barkley, Johnson, Chambers. Or Utah with Malone, Stockton, Hornacek. Greatest teams ever? Perhaps not...but great teams nonetheless. And they could never get past the Bulls.

And don't forget they did it with basically scrubs playing the C position.

[DaHeezy]

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that OP never has watched Michael Jordan
First off I was in high school when Jordan won his first. Second what the he'll does that have to do with my post?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Anyone who thinks that the Bulls minus MJ in 1991 and 1992 at a minimum would "challenge for a title" is an idiot and has an agenda, plain and simple. Especially if they had NEVER played with MJ (hence Pip/Grant don't become the players they became).

[LAZERUSS]

Anyone who thinks that the Bulls minus MJ in 1991 and 1992 at a minimum would "challenge for a title" is an idiot and has an agenda, plain and simple. Especially if they had NEVER played with MJ (hence Pip/Grant don't become the players they became).

And anyone who doesn't believe that Pippen and Grant were HUGE reasons for the Bulls success from '91 thru '93 is an even bigger idiot.

There was a reason that MJ went from 1-9 in his playoff runs to three titles...and the overwhelming evidence points to Pippen and Grant.

[Dro]

Topics are so tired....Nothing but the same people who don't like MJ going back and forth co-signing each other vs. the people who like MJ co-signing each other...Neither side listening to the other...

But any thread about MJ seems to go 7-9 pages..Interesting.....

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, the NBA in the 90's was notoriously weak. There was a reason Hakeem won two rings in the middle of the 90's. No competition.

[LeBird]

BTW, the NBA in the 90's was notoriously weak. There was a reason Hakeem won two rings in the middle of the 90's. No competition.

This. The 90s were really weak. Forget about conference, the whole league. You just look at the contenders to the Bulls and the teams now are stacked in comparison.

[diamenz]

BTW, the NBA in the 90's was notoriously weak. There was a reason Hakeem won two rings in the middle of the 90's. No competition.

it's just as weak now. it's been weak since the nba begun. so is the nfl, mlb and nhl. it's all weak.

[kshutts1]

I consider Jordan both the most overrated player of all time, as well as one of the greatest players of all time.

And the overrated portion of my belief is due, almost entirely, to the mythology that is Jordan.

Some people, media included, like to say things to the extent of...
If the ball is in Jordan's hands at the end of the game, you just knew it was going in.
Jordan never lost with HCA, and he was 6/6 in the Finals
Jordan is the ultimate winner
Jordan is the greatest athlete of all time

When what is not said or should be said is...

Jordan was awesome in the clutch, and inspired fear in the other teams
Jordan couldn't drag a bad team to a top 4 seed, and had a phenomenal team once the 90's started the league became more diluted
Huh? 6 titles is the ultimate winner?
Jordan may be the most hyped, most marketed athlete of all time, and is also one of the greatest to ever play basketball, but he's not the greatest athlete of all time.

I blame the media for the vast majority of the Jordan mythology. We have "kids" today that never watched Jordan play that spout off "6/6" and "always made clutch shots" and other hyperboles... Where did they learn that from?

My favorite part of this thread is when Andgar said Jordan "didn't leave his team". I honestly can't believe the thread continued after that. Should have been "dumbest thing ever said on ISH" or "biggest thread backfires" kinda epic flaming after that. I'm pretty sure that Jordan left his team more often than any other all time great. Can't think of a single other player that left his team twice.

[Trollsmasher]

I just rewatched Game 4 of the '93 Finals (the game MJ had 55 points) and my first reaction was - god damn basketball has come a long way since then (or at least so it seems in this game). The defense the Suns played is not even remotely comparable to some of the teams LeBron has faced on a regular basis in his postseason career. I mean, it's bad enough they had guys like KJ and Majerle checking MJ but just everything was more primitive back then. Majerle especially is a joke, the dude can't even run, how did anyone expect him to check MJ? Jordan literary walks around him like he's a ghost. In general, every time Jordan was driving the defense was back-paddling with him until they got blown by. Nowadays elite wing defenders would just body you immediately after you start driving and if you push to hard into them they'd draw the charge or make you fumble the ball or something. KJ was small and weak and constantly abused in the post. Zero rim protection on the Suns as well, everyone could literary get whatever shot in the paint they wanted. And remember, this was an era where players weren't nearly shooting as much threes as now and they weren't as efficient on those shots as well. So basically the floor was shrunk, since you didn't have to worry too much about teams beating you from three point land, and still they couldn't keep him out of the paint. Even guys like Paxton were able to get inside, that's asinine. I think MJ was amazing at moving without the ball and using off-action screens, but watching this game he's just getting wide open shots of simple screens.Seriously, for example, just watch the next game how the Warriors & Cavs move around and over screens to deny the pass or recover quickly if the pass is made. Like, I'm all for MJ having a GOAT-like first step and footwork to get his shots off but the amount of barely contested shots he was able put up on a regular basis is kinda shocking. I know he was taller & jumped higher than most guards at the time and had these leaning shots that were tough to contest but if I look at today's superstars (LeBron, Curry, Harden, Paul, Westbrook etc.) pretty much all of them have a harder time shaking off the defense for good shots on the regular.

[LAZERUSS]

I consider Jordan both the most overrated player of all time, as well as one of the greatest players of all time.

And the overrated portion of my belief is due, almost entirely, to the mythology that is Jordan.

Some people, media included, like to say things to the extent of...
If the ball is in Jordan's hands at the end of the game, you just knew it was going in.
Jordan never lost with HCA, and he was 6/6 in the Finals
Jordan is the ultimate winner
Jordan is the greatest athlete of all time

When what is not said or should be said is...

Jordan was awesome in the clutch, and inspired fear in the other teams
Jordan couldn't drag a bad team to a top 4 seed, and had a phenomenal team once the 90's started the league became more diluted
Huh? 6 titles is the ultimate winner?
Jordan may be the most hyped, most marketed athlete of all time, and is also one of the greatest to ever play basketball, but he's not the greatest athlete of all time.

I blame the media for the vast majority of the Jordan mythology. We have "kids" today that never watched Jordan play that spout off "6/6" and "always made clutch shots" and other hyperboles... Where did they learn that from?

My favorite part of this thread is when Andgar said Jordan "didn't leave his team". I honestly can't believe the thread continued after that. Should have been "dumbest thing ever said on ISH" or "biggest thread backfires" kinda epic flaming after that. I'm pretty sure that Jordan left his team more often than any other all time great. Can't think of a single other player that left his team twice.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

No question he is a GOAT candidate. But he is not the only one.

[LAZERUSS]

This. The 90s were really weak. Forget about conference, the whole league. You just look at the contenders to the Bulls and the teams now are stacked in comparison.

Move MJ's 90's Bulls into the 80's, and he might have won two rings. He certainly would not have won six.

[sd3035]

Move MJ's 90's Bulls into the 80's, and he might have won two rings. He certainly would not have won six.

Wilt would have been a towel boy in the 90s

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt would have been a towel boy in the 90s

He would have been in his mid-50's, and STILL would have been a Top-10 center. Hell, he was in better shape, in his 50's, than Shaq was in his 20's.

[sd3035]

He would have been in his mid-50's, and STILL would have been a Top-10 center. Hell, he was in better shape, in his 50's, than Shaq was in his 20's.

During Wilt's prime scoring years he looked like a shorter Manute Bol

Wilt was a poor man's Manute

[LAZERUSS]

During Wilt's prime scoring years he looked like a shorter Manute Bol

Wilt was a poor man's Manute

I can't recall Arnold working out with Manute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzIu7o5NH1k

Maybe you can get us that interview.

[Asukal]

Move MJ's 90's Bulls into the 80's, and he might have won two rings. He certainly would not have won six.

Mighta woulda coulda. All your imaginary bullshit means nothing. 6 rings happened. :whatever:

You know what else happened? Your boy choked so many chances and only won 2 as a role player. GOAT choker! :oldlol: :lol :roll:

Now go copy paste your meaningless stats text, I won't be reading it. :oldlol:

[kshutts1]

Mighta woulda coulda. All your imaginary bullshit means nothing. 6 rings happened. :whatever:


I love that context doesn't matter. At all.

Can at least admit that 90's NBA was more weak than 80's from a stacked-team standpoint.

[stanlove1111]

Bird = 7 (1980, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1988, 1990, 1991)

Duncan = 6 (2001, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2011, 2012)

Kareem = 5 (1973, 1974, 1977, 1981, 1986)

Shaq = 5 (1994, 1995, 2004, 2005, 2010)

Wilt = 5 (1961, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1973)

Oscar = 4 (1962, 1965, 1973, 1974)

Magic = 4 (1981, 1986, 1990, 1996)

Lebron = 3 (2009, 2010, 2011)

Hakeem = 2 (1985, 1987)

Kobe = 2 (2004, 2011)

Russell = 1 (1958)

MJ = 0

Your list if too simplistic as its only geared towards titles. That's a ridiculous way to look at things.

When I judge the great players I look at their situation for their career and look at how may things happened to them that wouldn't have happened if they were really the GOAT. And this is the only rational way to judge players.

Like you have Kobe here as only 2 failures but ignore right during his prime when he was finally surrounded by a not great team, his teams went nowhere.


I do rank Russell and Jordan the top 2 because they are the ones who basically did everything they should have if they were truly the greatest player ever.

[Magic 32]

Like you have Kobe here as only 2 failures but ignore right during his prime when he was finally surrounded by a not great team, his teams went nowhere.


A "not great team" :roll: :roll: Kwame and Smush should send you a christmas card.

He went as far as one shot away from beating a 50+ team, something Lebron only did one time in 7 years (and that team was lead by a tubby Chris Webber)

[miles berg]

MJ set the standard. I'm not even a Jordan fan but he is so much better than anyone else I've ever seen play its ridiculous.

[Bernkastel]

MJ's case is alot clearer than Sampras, Federer, Montana, Manning or ****ing Tom Brady :lol

What? Ferderer is the clear GOAT. And none of those players are the GOAT of football. And what is Manning doing being grouped with Brady and Montana? :biggums:

[LeBird]

I consider Jordan both the most overrated player of all time, as well as one of the greatest players of all time.

The rest of the post was great but this is the truth in a nutshell. :applause:

[Dro]

MJ set the standard. I'm not even a Jordan fan but he is so much better than anyone else I've ever seen play its ridiculous.
Exactly, I don't care about stats, lists, rings, or any of that really......When I watch that man play, nobody is doing the things he is consistently doing on a b-ball court, period...Simple as that for me.....

[DaHeezy]

MJ set the standard. I'm not even a Jordan fan but he is so much better than anyone else I've ever seen play its ridiculous.
Not discounting the fact you see him as the greatest ever, you don't think all is downfalls are immediately voided due to being over hyped?

[LAZERUSS]

Your list if too simplistic as its only geared towards titles. That's a ridiculous way to look at things.

When I judge the great players I look at their situation for their career and look at how may things happened to them that wouldn't have happened if they were really the GOAT. And this is the only rational way to judge players.

Like you have Kobe here as only 2 failures but ignore right during his prime when he was finally surrounded by a not great team, his teams went nowhere.


I do rank Russell and Jordan the top 2 because they are the ones who basically did everything they should have if they were truly the greatest player ever.

The thing is, you have to take into account, supporting teammates, the play of those supporting teammates in the post-season, the caliber of the opposition, injuries, and even luck.

Realistically, MJ went 6/15. Kareem went 6/20. Magic was 5/13. Duncan is 5/18. Shaq was 5/19. Kobe is 5/18. Bird was 3/13. And Russell was 11/13.

But, you can argue that MJ didn't have enough supporting talent from '85 thru '89. You can also make the argument that Wilt faced GREAT teams his entire career (the Celtic Dynasty 8 times, the HOF-laden Knicks 4 times, and the peak KAJ Bucks 2 times.)

And I know you will argue this, but IMO, had Wilt and Russell swapped rosters the entire decade of the 60's (and with related injuries to teammates), and Chamberlain, at the very least, goes 9-1. BUT, even with six in that decade, which is a given, and the one he added in '72, and he has SEVEN in his career. Where would Wilt (and Russell) rank under that scenario?

That's why CONTEXT is so important in these "GOAT" discussions.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I just rewatched Game 4 of the '93 Finals (the game MJ had 55 points) and my first reaction was - god damn basketball has come a long way since then (or at least so it seems in this game). The defense the Suns played is not even remotely comparable to some of the teams LeBron has faced on a regular basis in his postseason career. I mean, it's bad enough they had guys like KJ and Majerle checking MJ but just everything was more primitive back then. Majerle especially is a joke, the dude can't even run, how did anyone expect him to check MJ? Jordan literary walks around him like he's a ghost. In general, every time Jordan was driving the defense was back-paddling with him until they got blown by. Nowadays elite wing defenders would just body you immediately after you start driving and if you push to hard into them they'd draw the charge or make you fumble the ball or something. KJ was small and weak and constantly abused in the post. Zero rim protection on the Suns as well, everyone could literary get whatever shot in the paint they wanted. And remember, this was an era where players weren't nearly shooting as much threes as now and they weren't as efficient on those shots as well. So basically the floor was shrunk, since you didn't have to worry too much about teams beating you from three point land, and still they couldn't keep him out of the paint. Even guys like Paxton were able to get inside, that's asinine. I think MJ was amazing at moving without the ball and using off-action screens, but watching this game he's just getting wide open shots of simple screens.Seriously, for example, just watch the next game how the Warriors & Cavs move around and over screens to deny the pass or recover quickly if the pass is made. Like, I'm all for MJ having a GOAT-like first step and footwork to get his shots off but the amount of barely contested shots he was able put up on a regular basis is kinda shocking. I know he was taller & jumped higher than most guards at the time and had these leaning shots that were tough to contest but if I look at today's superstars (LeBron, Curry, Harden, Paul, Westbrook etc.) pretty much all of them have a harder time shaking off the defense for good shots on the regular.

So you're comparing one of the more pedestrian defensive teams Jordan faced to some of the elite defensive teams Lebron has faced? Not exactly a fair comparison. Those Suns were an above average defensive team (not great), but Jordan averaged 41/9/6/51% against them. If people looked at the ridiculously porous single coverage Lebron has gotten in this series, it looks pretty bad too. Jordan would average like 43 pg/52% FG against this same defense if they guarded him the same way.

And your last sentence misses the point: the reason they have a harder time shaking off defense for good shots is because A) they are nowhere NEAR the decision maker that Jordan was in terms of knowing the right thing to do and doing it IMMEDIATELY, and B) None of them have his gifts. Paul/Westbrook/Curry/Harden are all smaller (many significantly smaller) than Jordan, and their first step isn't anywhere near as fast (Westbrook being the closest). Point being, they can't cover the distance MJ did as quickly as he did on the initial move. Lebron is bigger, but far slower. Teams also had to respect Jordan as a finisher way more than guys like Curry/Harden/Paul, but also had to respect him a sa shooter way more than a guy like Lebron or Westbrook. That's what people with agendas like you don't get: Jordan was the total package both physically and skill-wise. That's why he was unguardable. He would embarrass any defense put on him more often than not, especially in today's soft-ass league.

[Roundball_Rock]

I consider Jordan both the most overrated player of all time, as well as one of the greatest players of all time.

And the overrated portion of my belief is due, almost entirely, to the mythology that is Jordan.

Some people, media included, like to say things to the extent of...
If the ball is in Jordan's hands at the end of the game, you just knew it was going in.
Jordan never lost with HCA, and he was 6/6 in the Finals
Jordan is the ultimate winner
Jordan is the greatest athlete of all time

When what is not said or should be said is...

Jordan was awesome in the clutch, and inspired fear in the other teams
Jordan couldn't drag a bad team to a top 4 seed, and had a phenomenal team once the 90's started the league became more diluted
Huh? 6 titles is the ultimate winner?
Jordan may be the most hyped, most marketed athlete of all time, and is also one of the greatest to ever play basketball, but he's not the greatest athlete of all time.

I blame the media for the vast majority of the Jordan mythology. We have "kids" today that never watched Jordan play that spout off "6/6" and "always made clutch shots" and other hyperboles... Where did they learn that from?

My favorite part of this thread is when Andgar said Jordan "didn't leave his team". I honestly can't believe the thread continued after that. Should have been "dumbest thing ever said on ISH" or "biggest thread backfires" kinda epic flaming after that. I'm pretty sure that Jordan left his team more often than any other all time great. Can't think of a single other player that left his team twice.

:applause:


MJ's case is alot clearer than Sampras, Federer, Montana, Manning or ****ing Tom Brady

MJ's case is not even the clearest in basketball. Wilt (individual dominance) and Russell (winning) have the clearest cases. MJ and KAJ are blends.



The thing is, you have to take into account, supporting teammates, the play of those supporting teammates in the post-season, the caliber of the opposition, injuries, and even luck.


Exactly. Winning should be a component in ranking players but it should not be the sole factor nor should it be looked at without context.

[Dro]

Not discounting the fact you see him as the greatest ever, you don't think all is downfalls are immediately voided due to being over hyped?
He is criticized ALL THE TIME...Its like some of you guys are making this stuff up just to argue against him being the GOAT...He's a ballhog, a jerk. You'd be a ballhog too playing with David Corzine.....Orlando Woolridge was his 2nd best player yet people go around talking about 1-9 like he wasn't still ALMOST unstoppable and doing almost everything in his power to get a win. He's played with the same effort and intensity since the day he entered the league. Why anyone is hating on that is beyond me. Even if the media pushes the narrative that he's basically GOD(which they do), why are you guys as grown men so offended by that? Who cares what the media thinks? I don't. I watch this dude's games and then go back and watch highlights...I've long come to the conclusion that there is not a better, more well rounded, more skilled player than him. He has the fundamentals, the intangibles, and can still pull of a reverse layup that he has no business finishing and there's no room.....

If you watch him with your own eyes and think somebody's better than him than fine, fair enough. But to hate on him just because of the "media" and "fans", so what? We're all grown, decide for yourselves...Many of us has stated that we couldn't stand Jordan growing up, and now we're grown and many of us have changed our tune.....

[LAZERUSS]

:applause:



MJ's case is not even the clearest in basketball. Wilt (individual dominance) and Russell (winning) have the clearest cases. MJ and KAJ are blends.



Exactly. Winning should be a component in ranking players but it should not be the sole factor nor should it be looked at without context.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

You read the "6/6" stuff all the time. Well, what happened to MJ in his nine other seasons? The MJ fans will give you...excuses. He had no surrounding talent, or he was old, or he was rusty, etc., etc.

Well, when you start using the "excuses" card...that can apply to several of these "GOAT" candidates. Kareem lost a game seven in the '74 Finals, in a series in which he was, BY FAR, the best player in the series. He also lost to Walton's Blazers in '77...in a series in which played without his two starting guards, and his starting PF. Swap rosters with Walton, and Kareem wins his 7th ring.

Bird and Magic won rings in a decade in which they not only had to battle each other, but the great Philly teams in the first half of the decade, and the great "Bad Boys" teams of the last half of the decade. Yes, they had as unbelievable surrounding support, but they were battling the most stacked teams in the history of the NBA. Why should they get punished for having Kareem and Worthy, or McHale and Parish, as their next options...when they were battling each other?

And while Russell went "11/13", and deserves the lion's share for doing so, he played with rosters in which HOFers were his 7th and 8th options. Meanwhile, Wilt gets ripped for "only" winning two rings, in a career in which he was having to battle the Celtic Dynasty, the HOF-laden Knick teams, and a peak Kareem's Bucks. Again, swap rosters, and coaches, with Russell, and he would surely have won considerably more rings. Who knows...maybe 10 more.

That is why you simply have to take CONTEXT into account.

[32jazz]

The thing is...his supporting casts in his championship runs were stellar. The MJ fans will try to downplay '94 and '95, but the reality was, that '94 team went 55-27, and lost a close seven game series in the ECSF's against a 56-26 Knicks team, that would lose a close seven game series against the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals (and outscored them in that Finals.)

Then, the very next season, MJ basically replaced Horace Grant, and then played as well in the '95 post-season, as he did in his '93 title run, and better than what he would play in his last three-peat...and yet, they were eliminated in six games by a Magic team that would get swept in the Finals.

And let's get real here...his supporting cast in his second three-peat was considerably better than in his first three-peat.

True, he won six of seven titles in that span...but let's not act like he was a miracle-worker doing it alone.

Jordan worshippers also simply negelect the fact that he was replaced by Pete 'friggin' Myers in 94. Not a legitimate NBA SG ,but a CBA journeyman (Pete 'friggin' Myers who averaged 4 ppg & the Bulls were a bad phantom call on Pippen from returning to the ECF at least. They barely missed a beat & lost in 7 games to the Knicks(who the Bulls probably beat in 6 if not for one one the worst calls in sports history on Pippen the 'phantom foul').


Derek Harper was available for peanuts & was traded to the Bulls greatest rival then ,the Knicks. Had the Jerry's decided not to stick with Pete ' friggin' Myers & paid the peanuts for Derek Harper in 94 the Bulls probably return to the finals.

Instead they allowed the Knicks to slightly improve with Harper & the Bulls stuck with Pete ' friggin' Myers.

[DaHeezy]

Jordan worshippers also simply negelect the fact that he was replaced by Pete 'friggin' Myers in 94. Not a legitimate NBA SG ,but a CBA journeyman (Pete 'friggin' Myers who averaged 4 ppg & the Bulls were a bad phantom call on Pippen from returning to the ECF at least. They barely missed a beat & lost in 7 games to the Knicks(who the Bulls probably beat in 6 if not for one one the worst calls in sports history on Pippen the 'phantom foul').


Derek Harper was available for peanuts & was traded to the Bulls greatest rival then ,the Knicks. Had the Jerry's decided not to stick with Pete ' friggin' Myers & paid the peanuts for Derek Harper in 94 the Bulls probably return to the finals.

Instead they allowed the Knicks to slightly improve with Harper & the Bulls stuck with Pete ' friggin' Myers.

See this is the point I'm trying to elude to. Is that points like this, losing to the Magic, inability to win without Pippen and PJax.....are often overlooked or discounted because people want to protect his legacy. Whereas other players with lesser downfalls get held accountable. It's not about whether or not Jordan is the greatest, it's if he's ever held accountable for his failures...

[andgar923]

:lol :lol :lol Bron stans are bunch of Ho ass bitches.

[DaHeezy]

He is criticized ALL THE TIME...Its like some of you guys are making this stuff up just to argue against him being the GOAT...He's a ballhog, a jerk. You'd be a ballhog too playing with David Corzine.....Orlando Woolridge was his 2nd best player yet people go around talking about 1-9 like he wasn't still ALMOST unstoppable and doing almost everything in his power to get a win. He's played with the same effort and intensity since the day he entered the league. Why anyone is hating on that is beyond me. Even if the media pushes the narrative that he's basically GOD(which they do), why are you guys as grown men so offended by that? Who cares what the media thinks? I don't. I watch this dude's games and then go back and watch highlights...I've long come to the conclusion that there is not a better, more well rounded, more skilled player than him. He has the fundamentals, the intangibles, and can still pull of a reverse layup that he has no business finishing and there's no room.....

If you watch him with your own eyes and think somebody's better than him than fine, fair enough. But to hate on him just because of the "media" and "fans", so what? We're all grown, decide for yourselves...Many of us has stated that we couldn't stand Jordan growing up, and now we're grown and many of us have changed our tune.....

Where have I ever said in this thread he wasn't the GOAT? I'm merely asking if he's held to a different standards. You're doing exactly what I was trying to point out is the legacy defenders are out in full force to silence any negativity. Sure their is criticism, but it's never long lasting and generally put to rst as opposed to any other superstars failures.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Overrated as an athlete? Definitely. He's not the GOAT athlete, that's purely a product of Jordan mythology.

Overrated as a player? Yeah, at least a little bit, but he's still the GOAT. The Jordan mythology pushes his greatness to impossible levels but the reality is more than sufficient to make a great case for him being the GOAT basketball player.

[andgar923]

See this is the point I'm trying to elude to. Is that points like this, losing to the Magic, inability to win without Pippen and PJax.....are often overlooked or discounted because people want to protect his legacy. Whereas other players with lesser downfalls get held accountable. It's not about whether or not Jordan is the greatest, it's if he's ever held accountable for his failures...
But they're not you crying bitch.

He talks about it, the media talk about them, his fans talk about them and Bron stans won't shut the f*ck up about it.

[DaHeezy]

:lol :lol :lol Bron stans are bunch of Ho ass bitches.

Such an ignorant assumption from one of the biggest Jordan stans in the known universe. Criticize Jordan, must be a Bron fan! Such a pathetic reach.

[32jazz]

Err, this is nonsense. Grant/Pippen and company certainly could NOT have "challenged for a title" in '91 or '92, and probably not even in 1993. It took an extreme confluence of circumstances for them to even make the second round in 1994 - and had key Cavs players not been injured, they might have not have gotten out of the first round.

This is type of excuse making for MJ by downplaying the 94 Bulls. Without MJ they won 55 games despite going 3-7 that season due to Pippen missing 10 games . A healthy Pippen & the 94 Bulls surpass the previous season record with MJ after being replaced by Pete 'friggin' Myers.

You sit here & dismiss a 55 win season as basically luck when they took the Knicks to 7 games after being robbed by the phantom foul on Pippen in game 5?.

The 94 Bulls had a bad confluence of occurances working against them. The phanttom foul & the arrogant Jerrys allowing the Knicks to pick up Derek Harper & the Bulls sticking with Pete ' friggin' Myers.


Can you imagine a D League call up replacing LeBron & his team performs as well without him? Nearly improve during the regular season?

[DaHeezy]

But they're not you crying bitch.

He talks about it, the media talk about them, his fans talk about them and Bron stans won't shut the f*ck up about it.

Pot talking to kettles? Look at the obsessed Jordan stan taking shots at Lebron any time he gets a chance. Man your obsession is so unhealthy you see Lebron fans everywhere....You materialize them like they're out to get you. Get help!

[andgar923]

Such an ignorant assumption from one of the biggest Jordan stans in the known universe. Criticize Jordan, must be a Bron fan! Such a pathetic reach.

Half the posters in this thread ARE Bron stans.

[DaHeezy]

This is type of excuse making for MJ by downplaying the 94 Bulls. Without MJ they won 55 games despite going 3-7 that season due to Pippen missing 10 games . A healthy Pippen & the 94 Bulls surpass the previous season record with MJ after being replaced by Pete 'friggin' Myers.

You sit here & dismiss a 55 win season as basically luck when they took the Knicks to 7 games after being robbed by the phantom foul on Pippen in game 5?.

The 94 Bulls had a bad confluence of occurances working against them. The phanttom foul & the arrogant Jerrys allowing the Knicks to pick up Derek Harper & the Bulls sticking with Pete ' friggin' Myers.


Can you imagine a D League call up replacing LeBron & his team performs as well without him? Nearly improve during the regular season?

The exact premise of the thread.
You must be a Lebron fan!!:oldlol:

[Dbrog]

Every legendary GOAT level player has won as an underdog and lost as the favorite, except for Jordan. He's won as an underdog but NEVER lost as the favorite...meaning that he always closed the deal when it was expected him to do so. No one else can claim that:bowdown:

While I agree MJ is the GOAT of the modern era, your statement is simply false. MJ was definitely the favorite when they lost to Shaq. MJ also conveniently quit when he would've been facing Hakeem (who he states himself had his number). Did MJ prove most of the doubters wrong? Yes...definitely. But don't make up facts to minimize his weaknesses. I think this is the point the OP is trying to make.

[DaHeezy]

Half the posters in this thread ARE Bron stans.
So what does that have to do with this thread??? Your paranoia has got you derailed

[andgar923]

Pot talking to kettles? Look at the obsessed Jordan stan taking shots at Lebron any time he gets a chance. Man your obsession is so unhealthy you see Lebron fans everywhere....You materialize them like they're out to get you. Get help!
Lol this Ho ass bitch makes a thread out of nowhere, crying that MJ doesn't get criticized, and when proved wrong he goes off the rails.

[LeBird]

Lol this Ho ass bitch makes a thread out of nowhere, crying that MJ doesn't get criticized, and when proved wrong he goes off the rails.

If anyone is crying it's clearly you. If you can't take anyone not gagging over your idol and instead being realistic it's best you not enter these threads lest you actually learn a thing or two and return to reality.

[32jazz]

The exact premise of the thread.
You must be a Lebron fan!!:oldlol:


Actually I am Lakers , but if you can't appreciate LeBron (I don't understand it)..................

I do appreciate greatness & I know that if LeBron were replaced by a D-League player his team would not win 55 games or more & nearly return to the NBA finals with a player like Pete 'friggin' Myers in his place.

Kobe replaced by a D- league player in 2010 & Derek Fisher in the backcourt would end very ugly.



I'm a Magic fan(my favorite athlete ever) ,but I don't feel defensive when people compare him to other great Pg's like Kidd or all around talent like LeBron.

I appreciate them & even cheer them on(outside playing the Lakers) because I see greatness & un like the weirdly misguided MJ worshippers I don't feel they are threatening Magic in some way.

Magic had his day & I don't have a problem enjoying Kidd ,LeBron, etc.......nor others.

[DaHeezy]

If anyone is crying it's clearly you. If you can't take anyone not gagging over your idol and instead being realistic it's best you not enter these threads lest you actually learn a thing or two and return to reality.
:applause:
He in here all puffin his chest like he always does when someone critiques his God. The thread wasn't intended to bash Jordan.

[DaHeezy]

Actually I am Lakers , but if you can't appreciate LeBron (I don't understand it)..................

I do appreciate greatness & I know that if LeBron were replaced by a D-League player his team would not win 55 games or more & nearly return to the NBA finals with a player like Pete 'friggin' Myers in his place.

Kobe replaced by a D- league player in 2010 & Derek Fisher in the backcourt would end very ugly.



I'm a Magic fan(my favorite athlete ever) ,but I don't feel defensive when people compare him to other great Pg's like Kidd or all around talent like LeBron.

I appreciate them & even cheer them on(outside playing the Lakers) because I see greatness & un like the weirdly misguided MJ worshippers I don't feel they are threatening Magic in some way.

Magic had his day & I don't have a problem enjoying Kidd ,LeBron, etc.......nor others.

I wasn't actually calling you a Lebron fan. It was a shot at andgar who assumes if you say anything negative about Jordan it makes you a Lebron fan. the kid is in his paranoia state
But great contribution BTW :cheers:

[bond10]

People tend to forget that MJ played in what many acknowledged at the time as a weaker era relative to the 80s.

In the early 90s, expansion diluted the NBA, and not many internationals were bolstering lineups yet . Even until the end of the decade, you can objectively say that MJ's Bulls never faced a truly elite historical team.


Have you ever considered that "truly elite historical" teams in the 90s didn't exist because....the ****ing Bulls and MJ would never lose to anyone???

[bond10]

And anyone who doesn't believe that Pippen and Grant were HUGE reasons for the Bulls success from '91 thru '93 is an even bigger idiot.

There was a reason that MJ went from 1-9 in his playoff runs to three titles...and the overwhelming evidence points to Pippen and Grant.


Why can't your dumbass comprehend that he went 1-9 losing to the stacked ass f 80s Celtics and dirty playing Pistons? He had Pippen and Grant in 88, 89, 90...they STILL lost to the Pistons.

[bond10]

And yet...zero proof to the contrary. How come?

Again..explain the following...

Why couldn't MJ get out of the 1st round until BOTH Pippen and Grant arrived? Wasn't even close in fact, going 1-9. And yet, the '94 Bulls, with basically scrubs replacing MJ at the last minute...went 55-27, and were a few points away from beating a team that would lose a close game seven in the Finals.

Then, that same team, without BOTH MJ and Grant went 34-31 in '95 before MJ arrived. And a fully refreshed MJ couldn't take the team as far as Grant had the year before. No one is claiming Grant was MJ, but c'mon...that was inexusable.

And of course, when they added a TON of talent to that '95 team...well, the rest is history. Hell, their '96-'98 teams likely would have won titles in a very weak NBA at the time, without him.


Again, WTF are you talking about? 95 Bulls had the same result as the 94 Bulls....a 2nd round exit.

96-98 Bulls weren't winning titles without Pippen, Rodman, or Jordan. They were old but it worked because they complemented each other. ALL THREE WERE NEEDED.

[LAZERUSS]

Why can't your dumbass comprehend that he went 1-9 losing to the stacked ass f 80s Celtics and dirty playing Pistons? He had Pippen and Grant in 88, 89, 90...they STILL lost to the Pistons.

Pretty much confirms what we already know.

MJ's Bulls couldn't beat a powerhouse Pistons team until they fell apart. Which speaks volumes about the Sixers in the first half of the decade of the 80's, and the Celtics and Lakers teams of the entire decade of the 80's. Those teams were considerably better than the Bad Boys mini-dynasty.

Sorry, but put MJ's Bulls from the 90's into the 80's...and guess what? Maybe 1, possibly 2 rings...or perhaps...NONE.

[LAZERUSS]

Again, WTF are you talking about? 95 Bulls had the same result as the 94 Bulls....a 2nd round exit.

96-98 Bulls weren't winning titles without Pippen, Rodman, or Jordan. They were old but it worked because they complemented each other. ALL THREE WERE NEEDED.

The '94 Bulls, with Pete Myers replacing MJ, lost a close (and controversial) seven game series against the Knicks in the ECSF's. The Knicks then went on to lose a close game seven to the 58-24 champion Rockets, in a series in which they outscored the Rockets.

How does that compare with MJ replacing Grant in '95, and his team getting thumped 4-2 in the ECSF's, by a team that would get swept in the Finals by a 47-35 Rockets team?

[32jazz]

The '94 Bulls, with Pete Myers replacing M....

I can never get Bulls fans to explain how MJ 'carried' his team yet he is replaced by a CBA journeyman (not a legit NBA guard) & the Bulls win 55(despite going 3-7 while Pippen was out injured).


Replace Myers with very needed Derek Harper ,who was traded for much of nothing, & the Bulls go back to the finals & have a legit shot at the Rockets:


BJ Armstrong
Harper
Pippen
Grant
Cartwright


Doc Rivers went down with an injury & the Knicks picked up Harper for nothing while the Jerrys' inexplicably stayed with Pete Myers.



In 95( without MJ & Grant )Pippen scrapped & kept the Bulls above .500 with the historically rare feat of leading his team in 5 categories: scoring ,rebounds, assist,steals & blocks:bowdown: .

[3ball]

1994 Bulls starters:

Myers
BJ Armstrong
Pippen
Grant
Longley


The Bulls needed MJ to lead the league in scoring for every championship they won - specifically, they needed him to average 35 PPG and 7 APG in the playoffs thru his first 3-peat, and 36 PPG and 8 APG in the Finals.

So the 1994 Bulls didn't win because they had talented players that could score a lot of points - they won because of the superior strategy, teamwork, and mental ability they acquired while 3-peating with MJ.

[Roundball_Rock]

I can never get Bulls fans to explain how MJ 'carried' his team yet he is replaced by a CBA journeyman (not a legit NBA guard) & the Bulls win 55(despite going 3-7 while Pippen was out injured).


Replace Myers with very needed Derek Harper ,who was traded for much of nothing, & the Bulls go back to the finals & have a legit shot at the Rockets:


BJ Armstrong
Harper
Pippen
Grant
Cartwright


Doc Rivers went down with an injury & the Knicks picked up Harper for nothing while the Jerrys' inexplicably stayed with Pete Myers.



In 95( without MJ & Grant )Pippen scrapped & kept the Bulls above .500 with the historically rare feat of leading his team in 5 categories: scoring ,rebounds, assist,steals & blocks:bowdown: .

They considered Harper when MJ suddenly retired but preferred Myer's defense. :oldlol: They did want Hornacek-especially Phil Jackson but Krause foolishly did not want to give up a first round pick in a Hornacek tradeat the trade deadline. The Bulls were right in the mix for the #1 seed all year with a D-Leaguer caliber starting SG and Hornacek, an all-star caliber SG, would have put them over the top in the East and perhaps over Houston as well. Yet Krause, inexplicably, wanted to keep a pick he knew would be a low pick and one that turned out to be scrub Dickey Simpkins. :banghead:

[hateraid]

I can never get Bulls fans to explain how MJ 'carried' his team yet he is replaced by a CBA journeyman (not a legit NBA guard) & the Bulls win 55(despite going 3-7 while Pippen was out injured).



See this is the most intriguing thing to me. This is obviously the biggest blemish in Jordan's nearly perfect career and the biggest factor in the argument against MJ. Yet for some reason the MJ supporters fail to acknowledge this shortcoming and try to put a positive spin by saying, "well they didn't win it all without him....or they were 0-2 (well 0-1.5) without him"
This is glaring proof that his impact had little bearing to the success of this team. Yes, Jordan takes this team and makes them a championship favorite, but they were still a very strong team and a contender without him. On top of that fail to give credit where it's due when other superstars impact were undeniable.

[dick tracy]

BO JACKSON WAS BETTER!!!!!!!!!!

HE COULD PLAY BASEBALL JORDAN SUCKED AT BASE BALL
JACSON UNLIKE MICHAEL EXCELLED AT TWO SPORTS HA HA!:coleman:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

BO JACKSON WAS BETTER!!!!!!!!!!

HE COULD PLAY BASEBALL JORDAN SUCKED AT BASE BALL
JACSON UNLIKE MICHAEL EXCELLED AT TWO SPORTS HA HA!:coleman:

Really shitty way to post but you're right that Jackson was on another level compared to Jordan.

[Rose'sACL]

I can never get Bulls fans to explain how MJ 'carried' his team yet he is replaced by a CBA journeyman (not a legit NBA guard) & the Bulls win 55(despite going 3-7 while Pippen was out injured).


Replace Myers with very needed Derek Harper ,who was traded for much of nothing, & the Bulls go back to the finals & have a legit shot at the Rockets:


BJ Armstrong
Harper
Pippen
Grant
Cartwright


Doc Rivers went down with an injury & the Knicks picked up Harper for nothing while the Jerrys' inexplicably stayed with Pete Myers.



In 95( without MJ & Grant )Pippen scrapped & kept the Bulls above .500 with the historically rare feat of leading his team in 5 categories: scoring ,rebounds, assist,steals & blocks:bowdown: .
Your post greatly describes why real basketball fans think MJ is overrated even though he is the GOAT.

[dick tracy]

Really shitty way to post but you're right that Jackson was on another level compared to Jordan.


Jordan shouldn't have embaressed himself by playing base ball:coleman:

[dick tracy]

ron harper
Michael Jordan
scottie pippen
dennis rodman
luc longely


72 and 10:coleman:

[juju151111]

6 rings and 6 fmvps. You can't say anything about him actually. In 13 years he amassed that.

[LAZERUSS]

6 rings and 6 fmvps. You can't say anything about him actually. In 13 years he amassed that.

So, "6/13" then. Or, actually "6/15."

If MJ gets excuses in those other nine seasons, then we can list the "excuses" that the other GOAT candidates would have, as well.

Russell was light years ahead of him with his "11/13."

Kareem won as many rings, and would surely have won more had his '80 Lakers played in the 90's.

Wilt likely would have won at LEAST 7 rings in his career had he and Russell swapped rosters ( could have been as many as 11.)

Magic not only went "5/13" but he also held a 9-6 margin over MJ in Finals appearances (sorry but going 6/9 is greater than going 6/6.)

[dick tracy]

couldn't beat the pistions in 1989 or 1990

was complete ball hog till phil told him to pass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:biggums:

[LAZERUSS]

I can never get Bulls fans to explain how MJ 'carried' his team yet he is replaced by a CBA journeyman (not a legit NBA guard) & the Bulls win 55(despite going 3-7 while Pippen was out injured).


Replace Myers with very needed Derek Harper ,who was traded for much of nothing, & the Bulls go back to the finals & have a legit shot at the Rockets:


BJ Armstrong
Harper
Pippen
Grant
Cartwright


Doc Rivers went down with an injury & the Knicks picked up Harper for nothing while the Jerrys' inexplicably stayed with Pete Myers.



In 95( without MJ & Grant )Pippen scrapped & kept the Bulls above .500 with the historically rare feat of leading his team in 5 categories: scoring ,rebounds, assist,steals & blocks:bowdown: .

The '94 Bulls, with even just a second good scoring threat, would have easily won a title. Not even a question.

But what is interesting, though, is that the '95 Bulls got that scoring threat, one of the greatest ever in fact, but couldn't even perform as well as the '94 team did without him. Was Grant that much of a difference maker? Well, possibly...since he was on the team that beat MJ's '95 Bulls.

[dick tracy]

couldn't beat magic in 95 either what a loser


:coleman:

[juju151111]

So, "6/13" then. Or, actually "6/15."

If MJ gets excuses in those other nine seasons, then we can list the "excuses" that the other GOAT candidates would have, as well.

Russell was light years ahead of him with his "11/13."

Kareem won as many rings, and would surely have won more had his '80 Lakers played in the 90's.

Wilt likely would have won at LEAST 7 rings in his career had he and Russell swapped rosters ( could have been as many as 11.)

Magic not only went "5/13" but he also held a 9-6 margin over MJ in Finals appearances (sorry but going 6/9 is greater than going 6/6.)
Nope that's retarded lol. What was Wilt 2-14 dumbass.
Bill Russell not even in the conversation.
Kareem won his last two rings being 2nd fiddle.

Wilt won two rings not 7 :roll:

What? Magic won only 5 and had a top 5 player all-time with him.

[LAZERUSS]

couldn't beat magic in 95 either what a loser


:coleman:

Even worse...that Magic team would go on to get swept by a 47-35 Rockets team in the Finals.

[juju151111]

The '94 Bulls, with even just a second good scoring threat, would have easily won a title. Not even a question.

But what is interesting, though, is that the '95 Bulls got that scoring threat, one of the greatest ever in fact, but couldn't even perform as well as the '94 team did without him. Was Grant that much of a difference maker? Well, possibly...since he was on the team that beat MJ's '95 Bulls.
The 94 Bulls were a second round team. They are up there with 2013 Bulls and scrubs like that

[LAZERUSS]

The 94 Bulls were a second round team. They are up there with 2013 Bulls and scrubs like that

And they were a much better "second round team", in '94, and without MJ...than they were in '95, and with MJ.

[dick tracy]

Even worse...that Magic team would go on to get swept by a 47-35 Rockets team in the Finals.


hakeem would sweep Jordan

they were 8 and 2 against jordan in the 90s:coleman:

[juju151111]

And they were a much better "second round team", in '94, and without MJ...than they were in '95, and with MJ.
If you say so.:applause: No wonder Pippen was campaigning for My to come back.

[LAZERUSS]

If you say so.:applause: No wonder Pippen was campaigning for My to come back.

Again...MJ is one of SEVERAL GOAT candidates. Obviously he was the key reason why his Bulls won 6 titles in 13 seasons. BUT, in his title runs, he had the BEST surrounding talent in the league. Without question.

Let's not act like MJ was single-handedly beating the Bird-led teams, or the prime Bad Boys...because he was not. His teams were getting routed. When the Bulls gave him the best talent in the league...6 rings in 7 seasons.

Having said that, put a prime Kareem, or prime Wilt, or a prime Bird, or a prime Magic in the same exact situations...and likely at least as many rings. Hell, Wilt was carrying pathetic rosters to within an eyelash of beating the greatest dynasty in NBA history on several occasions, and in fact, when he finally had an equal supporting cast, he and his team just obliterated the eight time (and 60-21) Celtics (they were four points away from a sweep in game four.)

[andgar923]

A story of Leticia.

There was a 19 year old named Leticia who had a brother named Michael, and Leticia always cried and complained about her older brother, and her parents always answered her grievances.

Leticia: Mom it's not fair!!! You never tell Michael to do house chores!!!

Mom: But I did. I used to tell him to clean the yard, but not only did he rake the leaves, he mowed the yard and trimmed the edges.


Leticia: dad I never heard you ground Michael when he got bad grades!!!

Dad: I actually did ground him, even more than you.

Leticia: then how come I don't hear about it? It's always Michael this and Michael that!!!

Dad: well, not only did he improve his grades, he received a scholarship to attend the university which he received his masters.

Leticia: all you two ever do is praise him, all you ever do is compare me to him as if he's a saint, but it's not fair!!! He's not perfect. Did you forget his pot addiction? Did you guys forget how he'd come home late at night drunk? It's not fair!!! You guys make him out to be a saint but he's not perfect!!!

Parents: we never forgot his issues. But he changed, he stopped drinking and smoking, he graduated got a great job and started a family, finished paying the mortgage for this house and is paying for your tuition fees.

He grew from his mistakes, and we only want the best for you as well. We treat you no different then how we treated him. We actually used to punish him worse. We hit him, took away all his toys, his car, so he had it worse.

Leticia: it's just not fair how you always compare me to him!!

Mom: honey, but it's YOU that always brings him up. It's YOU.

[juju151111]

Again...MJ is one of SEVERAL GOAT candidates. Obviously he was the key reason why his Bulls won 6 titles in 13 seasons. BUT, in his title runs, he had the BEST surrounding talent in the league. Without question.

Let's not act like MJ was single-handedly beating the Bird-led teams, or the prime Bad Boys...because he was not. His teams were getting routed. When the Bulls gave him the best talent in the league...6 rings in 7 seasons.

Having said that, put a prime Kareem, or prime Wilt, or a prime Bird, or a prime Magic in the same exact situations...and likely at least as many rings. Hell, Wilt was carrying pathetic rosters to within an eyelash of beating the greatest dynasty in NBA history on several occasions, and in fact, when he finally had an equal supporting cast, he and his team just obliterated the eight time (and 60-21) Celtics (they were four points away from a sweep in game four.)
That's why he wasn't favored in 91,93 or 98. Pippen was basically dead by gm 4 98

[emaugust]

:roll:

Bro. If Cleveland is playing the Suns, Blazers, 98 Jazz or 96 sonics right now he'd average 50-15-15 on >50fg% and 60%TS. Those teams were high paced and they could not stop lebron from doing anything. Plus today's defenses are way more sophisticated to do anything to slow down leKING.

Sir Charles woulda bullied Lebron.

[Roundball_Rock]

hakeem would sweep Jordan


That is a myth. Yeah, the Rockets did well against the Bulls from 1991-1993 but the Rockets were first round fodder, missed the playoffs in the first two years and then lost in the WCSF in 93'. The question is the 94' and 95' Rockets and the fact is the Bulls did fine against the Rockets during those years, even without MJ (2-1 when Pippen played and in the game Pip missed the Bulls lost by single digits). So what is there to suggest that by adding MJ the Bulls would lose? The Bulls routinely beat elite centers in Ewing, Daughtery, Mourning and went 1-1 versus Shaq. Hakeem would have gotten his but people act as if centers were putting up 35/17 on the Bulls.

[juju151111]

That is a myth. Yeah, the Rockets did well against the Bulls from 1991-1993 but the Rockets were first round fodder, missed the playoffs in the first two years and then lost in the WCSF in 93'. The question is the 94' and 95' Rockets and the fact is the Bulls did fine against the Rockets during those years, even without MJ (2-1 when Pippen played and in the game Pip missed the Bulls lost by single digits). So what is there to suggest that by adding MJ the Bulls would lose? The Bulls routinely beat elite centers in Ewing, Daughtery, Mourning and went 1-1 versus Shaq. Hakeem would have gotten his but people act as if centers were putting up 35/17 on the Bulls.
Exactly and regular season means jack.

[scandisk_]

Exactly and regular season means jack.

But if there was any team designed to go head to head with the Bulls it's the Rockets. Style make fights. Mad Max would prolly go personal with MJ. It's still a wash between the two teams IMO.

[Roundball_Rock]

Exactly and regular season means jack.

The other thing is in 1994 the Bulls without MJ fought the Knicks to a draw, a team that then fought the Rockets to a draw. So how would the Bulls with MJ be inferior to the Rockets?

[andgar923]

Can someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Bulls have losing records in the regular season vs teams they eventually beat in the post season?

[Bernie Nips]

Comparatively, no one comes close to Bradman when you're talking about the greatest there ever was. He's just so far ahead of his competition, it's like someone made him up.

BUT as a universal figure and pop icon, coupled with the fact that he's clearly the best basketballer ever, it's easy to see why people refer to other greats as "the Jordan" of whatever sport.

[DaHeezy]

Can someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Bulls have losing records in the regular season vs teams they eventually beat in the post season?
:facepalm
You still don't get it do you? The thread isn't about overcoming adversity, it's about not being accountable for one's downfalls.
Honestly, your peacock mode is clouding you ability to comprehend this thread. Go find a thread where people are making LeBron comparisons. You'll be much more effective there

[Soundwave]

I feel Jordan more than any athlete has a different set of standards. Where all his failures and short comings are given excuses and are never recognized along side his accomplishments. Even his shortcomings within his own personal life seem to be stricken from public record.
Do you agree?

His failures were thrown in his face all the time, you obviously didn't grow up in the 1980s where there was a rabid, loud group of Magic/Bird lovers who would constantly state "Jordan will never be as good as Magic/Bird, Jordan will never win a title because of his style of play, a scoring champion can't lead a team to a championship, etc. etc. etc.".

He just happened to shut his critics up ... over ... and over ... and over again.

Even after 1995, I remember a lot of people saying "Jordan is done, the Bulls are done, it's the Orlando Magic era now, time for Shaq and Penny to rule the league and Grant Hill too" etc. etc. etc. :lol :lol

If anything Magic/Bird get much more of a pass on their personal life.

Jordan wouldn't take a photo at 2 AM with freaking Chamillionaire.

Larry Bird has an illegitimate daughter that grew up 100 miles away with him that he refused to see and wouldn't give the time of day.

Magic Johnson would force models/aspiring actresses to perform oral sex in front of everyone on his friends at his "pool parties" or he'd kick them out.

If Jordan (or even LeBron or Kobe) did any of that they'd get sh*t on constantly. Jordan, LeBron, and Kobe actually get it worse in terms of everything they do being overanalyzed up the wazoo.

Magic, Bird, Shaq (uh, wrestling naked with teammates against their will? making fun of mentally handicapped people at age 40?) get off easy.

[sportjames23]

His failures were thrown in his face all the time, you obviously didn't grow up in the 1980s where there was a rabid, loud group of Magic/Bird lovers who would constantly state "Jordan will never be as good as Magic/Bird, Jordan will never win a title because of his style of play, a scoring champion can't lead a team to a championship, etc. etc. etc.".

He just happened to shut his critics up ... over ... and over ... and over again.

Even after 1995, I remember a lot of people saying "Jordan is done, the Bulls are done, it's the Orlando Magic era now, time for Shaq and Penny to rule the league and Grant Hill too" etc. etc. etc. :lol :lol

If anything Magic/Bird get much more of a pass on their personal life.

Jordan wouldn't take a photo at 2 AM with freaking Chamillionaire.

Larry Bird has an illegitimate daughter that grew up 100 miles away with him that he refused to see and wouldn't give the time of day.

Magic Johnson would force models/aspiring actresses to perform oral sex in front of everyone on his friends at his "pool parties" or he'd kick them out.

If Jordan (or even LeBron or Kobe) did any of that they'd get sh*t on constantly. Jordan, LeBron, and Kobe actually get it worse in terms of everything they do being overanalyzed up the wazoo.

Magic, Bird, Shaq (uh, wrestling naked with teammates against their will? making fun of mentally handicapped people at age 40?) get off easy.


Real talk.

[kshutts1]

His failures were thrown in his face all the time, you obviously didn't grow up in the 1980s where there was a rabid, loud group of Magic/Bird lovers who would constantly state "Jordan will never be as good as Magic/Bird, Jordan will never win a title because of his style of play, a scoring champion can't lead a team to a championship, etc. etc. etc.".

He just happened to shut his critics up ... over ... and over ... and over again.

Even after 1995, I remember a lot of people saying "Jordan is done, the Bulls are done, it's the Orlando Magic era now, time for Shaq and Penny to rule the league and Grant Hill too" etc. etc. etc. :lol :lol

If anything Magic/Bird get much more of a pass on their personal life.

Jordan wouldn't take a photo at 2 AM with freaking Chamillionaire.

Larry Bird has an illegitimate daughter that grew up 100 miles away with him that he refused to see and wouldn't give the time of day.

Magic Johnson would force models/aspiring actresses to perform oral sex in front of everyone on his friends at his "pool parties" or he'd kick them out.

If Jordan (or even LeBron or Kobe) did any of that they'd get sh*t on constantly. Jordan, LeBron, and Kobe actually get it worse in terms of everything they do being overanalyzed up the wazoo.

Magic, Bird, Shaq (uh, wrestling naked with teammates against their will? making fun of mentally handicapped people at age 40?) get off easy.
I think it's more than people actually consider MJ's personal life issues part of the myth.
Jordan won't take a photo so he is a jerk. But because he's a jerk, he got the Bulls to play how they should and win at all costs. Alpha.

[32jazz]

They considered Harper when MJ suddenly retired but preferred Myer's defense. :oldlol: They did want Hornacek-especially Phil Jackson but Krause foolishly did not want to give up a first round pick in a Hornacek tradeat the trade deadline. The Bulls were right in the mix for the #1 seed all year with a D-Leaguer caliber starting SG and Hornacek, an all-star caliber SG, would have put them over the top in the East and perhaps over Houston as well. Yet Krause, inexplicably, wanted to keep a pick he knew would be a low pick and one that turned out to be scrub Dickey Simpkins. :banghead:

I didn't know they wanted Hornacek . But even in that case the Jazz had to give up an aging all-star in Jeff Malone.

The Knicks only had to give up Tony Campbell & a nearly meaningless late 1st rd pick for a borderline all star in Derek Harper.



Derek Harper was more realistic & available for nothing & was a 2 time(?) 1st or 2nd team all defensive player.

Harper was a borderline NBA All star who had the misfortune of playing in conference with Magic & Stockton. So solid & respected as a Maverick that it has been announced that Cuban would eventually retire Harpers jersey.


Pete Myers ' defense' huh? :facepalm

Myers was hot garbage who should have never been in the NBA let alone start 82 games avererging 4 pts/2 rbs/2 assists when Derek Harper ( more realistic)& even Hornacek are available.


With Pete Myers in place of Jordan the Bulls win 55 games & if not for going 3-7 during a Pippen injury they actually improve upon the 1993 win total with Jordan(57 wins) & approach 60 wins.

Nearly 60 wins with a CBA journeyman in Pete Myers starting 82 games averaging 4/2/2:facepalm


Travesty that Phil & Pippen & those guys weren't given a better shot than being subjected to Pete ' friggin' Myers.

Jordan fans don't seen to like discussing Myers.

[DaHeezy]

His failures were thrown in his face all the time, you obviously didn't grow up in the 1980s where there was a rabid, loud group of Magic/Bird lovers who would constantly state "Jordan will never be as good as Magic/Bird, Jordan will never win a title because of his style of play, a scoring champion can't lead a team to a championship, etc. etc. etc.".

He just happened to shut his critics up ... over ... and over ... and over again.

Even after 1995, I remember a lot of people saying "Jordan is done, the Bulls are done, it's the Orlando Magic era now, time for Shaq and Penny to rule the league and Grant Hill too" etc. etc. etc. :lol :lol

If anything Magic/Bird get much more of a pass on their personal life.

Jordan wouldn't take a photo at 2 AM with freaking Chamillionaire.

Larry Bird has an illegitimate daughter that grew up 100 miles away with him that he refused to see and wouldn't give the time of day.

Magic Johnson would force models/aspiring actresses to perform oral sex in front of everyone on his friends at his "pool parties" or he'd kick them out.

If Jordan (or even LeBron or Kobe) did any of that they'd get sh*t on constantly. Jordan, LeBron, and Kobe actually get it worse in terms of everything they do being overanalyzed up the wazoo.

Magic, Bird, Shaq (uh, wrestling naked with teammates against their will? making fun of mentally handicapped people at age 40?) get off easy.

Heeellll fakin no.
If LeBron, Kobe, Magic, or Bird were a notorious wife cheating, gambling to the point it may have got his dad killed, poor excuse for a human the world would never let them live it down. They'd be in the same regards as A-Rod, Pete Rose, Michael Vick......Jordan was guilty of more shit that would have gotten most men crucified. Sorry but Jordan was a media darling and his PR knew exactly what to do and did a great job for it not to tarnish his public image. You can't see this because you're a fan boy like a religious nutbag tries to defend Jesus. Sorry, Jordan has more free passes than any athlete of all time. And I haven't even got to career failures. But Jazz32 got that covered for me.
And FYI, I was in high school when Jordan won his first. I am fully aware of basketball in that era

[32jazz]

The '94 Bulls, with even just a second good scoring threat, would have easily won a title. Not even a question.

But what is interesting, though, is that the '95 Bulls got that scoring threat, one of the greatest ever in fact, but couldn't even perform as well as the '94 team did without him. Was Grant that much of a difference maker? Well, possibly...since he was on the team that beat MJ's '95 Bulls.

You notice how MJ fans want to discuss everyone ,but the great CBA journeyman Pete Myers that replaced him ?Myers averaged 4//2/2 & the Bulls nearly exceed the previous season win total(Pippen missed 10 games & the Bulls went 3-7 otherwise they surpass the 93 Bulls record).



That aside the Bulls failed to go after a borderline NBA all-star ,high IQ NBA player who was also a damn good defender in Derek Harper & stick with Pete Myers.


That 95 Bulls team was missing that inside defender / rebounder after Horace Grant left.


No worries though they replaced Grant with Rodaman in 96 & they were back in business.

Jackson says Rodman should have been the 96 Finals MVP as the Bulls struggled against the Sonic's D ,but Rodman had a Finals record back to back 11 or 12 offensive rebound games against the Sonics.

[DaHeezy]

I didn't know they wanted Hornacek . But even in that case the Jazz had to give up an aging all-star in Jeff Malone.

The Knicks only had to give up Tony Campbell & a nearly meaningless late 1st rd pick for a borderline all star in Derek Harper.



Derek Harper was more realistic & available for nothing & was a 2 time(?) 1st or 2nd team all defensive player.

Harper was a borderline NBA All star who had the misfortune of playing in conference with Magic & Stockton. So solid & respected as a Maverick that it has been announced that Cuban would eventually retire Harpers jersey.


Pete Myers ' defense' huh? :facepalm

Myers was hot garbage who should have never been in the NBA let alone start 82 games avererging 4 pts/2 rbs/2 assists when Derek Harper ( more realistic)& even Hornacek are available.


With Pete Myers in place of Jordan the Bulls win 55 games & if not for going 3-7 during a Pippen injury they actually improve upon the 1993 win total with Jordan(57 wins) & approach 60 wins.

Nearly 60 wins with a CBA journeyman in Pete Myers starting 82 games averaging 4/2/2:facepalm


Travesty that Phil & Pippen & those guys weren't given a better shot than being subjected to Pete ' friggin' Myers.

Jordan fans don't seen to like discussing Myers.

Again, Jordan stans put the positive spin on it
"But did they win?"
"They couldn't win without him"
:lol
The biggest blemish but can't handle that this is such a glaring setback. That's why the threat of Lebron winning this championship is more of a threat to Jordan fans over Kobe fans

[32jazz]

Again, Jordan stans put the positive spin on it
"But did they win?"
"They couldn't win without him"
:lol
The biggest blemish but can't handle that this is such a glaring setback. That's why the threat of Lebron winning this championship is more of a threat to Jordan fans over Kobe fans

How the hell are you gonna win it all starting a CBA journeyman 82 games who averaged 4/2/2 ?

Then allowing a borderline all star like Derek Harper to go to your biggest rival when they lost Doc Rivers for the season.

Despite the dead weight that was Pete ' friggin' Myers & allowing the Knicks to scoop up Derek Harper they took them to 7 games(got robbed in game 5 on the phantom foul on Pippen. If not for the horrible call the 94 Bulls go back to Chicago up 3-2 on the Knicks instead of down 2-3).


Even Knicks fans & those associated with the organization know that series in 94 was a gift .Some even say it was payback for all the years MJ got calls on the Knicks/League.


And did I mention that the Knicks replaced injured Doc Rivers with Derek Harper & the Bulls passed on Derek Harper for Pete 'friggin' Myers?

[DaHeezy]

How the hell are you gonna win it all starting a CBA journeyman 82 games who averaged 4/2/2 ?

Then allowing a borderline all star like Derek Harper to go to your biggest rival when they lost Doc Rivers for the season.

Despite the dead weight that was Pete ' friggin' Myers & allowing the Knicks to scoop up Derek Harper they took them to 7 games(got robbed in game 5 on the phantom foul on Pippen. If not for the horrible call the 94 Bulls go back to Chicago up 3-2 on the Knicks instead of down 2-3).


Even Knicks fans & those associated with the organization know that series in 94 was a gift .Some even say it was payback for all the years MJ got calls on the Knicks/League.


And did I mention that the Knicks replaced injured Doc Rivers with Derek Harper & the Bulls passed on Derek Harper for Pete 'friggin' Myers?
Or worse, Pippen's blown call was to protect Jordan's legacy of having the Bulls succeed without him!

Pete Myers is Jordan's 2-5. Maybe even worse considering 6-6 is a team accomplishment, Pete Myers is proof Jordan had minimal impact compared to how good the Bulls were.

[bond10]

Or worse, Pippen's blown call was to protect Jordan's legacy of having the Bulls succeed without him!

Pete Myers is Jordan's 2-5. Maybe even worse considering 6-6 is a team accomplishment, Pete Myers is proof Jordan had minimal impact compared to how good the Bulls were.


You can try as hard as you want bruh, but over 95% of basketball fans (not just ISH) consider MJ as the GOAT. The 94 season was great, but in the end it's a second round loss just like the Bulls this year.

[dick tracy]

BART STARR ACHEIVED SO MUCH MORE:coleman:

[DaHeezy]

You can try as hard as you want bruh, but over 95% of basketball fans (not just ISH) consider MJ as the GOAT. The 94 season was great, but in the end it's a second round loss just like the Bulls this year.Congratulations!
Exactly my point, thanks for proving me right! You did exactly the thing I quote all Jordan stans do. Put a positive spin on an outstanding blemish.(Read post #218 and see if you can comprehend)
It's not about arguing if Jordan is the greatest player of all time, it's accepting his shortcomings. You missed the point and became the example all in the same post!

Pete Myers!

[f0und]

that 94 bulls team was a solid team that overachieved. we see it every year. one or two teams surprises the league but then get exposed in the playoffs. they, especially pippen, played with a chip on their shoulders and with lots of heart. but in the end, to be a true title contender, heart cant make up for lack of talent. the next year, they were brought back down to earth. they were hovering around the 5th seed before jordan came back. and then closed out the season something like 17-2.

in 95, yeah he failed to win the title, but you're really reaching if you're holding that against him. regular season is one thing but the playoffs are a different animal. not only do you have to be on top of your game physically and skillfully(you could make a good argument that he wasnt even that since he's adjusting his game on the fly to his aging body), but you have to be on it mentally too. you need extreme focus. any mental lapse can be costly. during jordan's two 3-peats, he never made costly mistakes. he didnt hit every shot, nor did he not not turn the ball over. but down the stretch of a game, you never saw him have mental lapse and make bad decisions. except for that series against the magic in 95. during his six title runs, that was the only time jordan didnt deliver. it was so mind boggling cuz i was so used to seeing him come through and bring home the victory. call me bias or whatever, but i blame that on the mental rust. being that in all other numerous circumstances of important playoff moments he delivered, i will give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Sarcastic]

1994 Bulls had an SRS of 2.87 with 55 wins. The Pacers, Cavs, and Magic all had better SRS ratings that year above 3. The Bulls won 55 games that year because Phil Jackson pulled off one of the best coaching performances of all time.

[jstern]

that 94 bulls team was a solid team that overachieved. we see it every year. one or two teams surprises the league but then get exposed in the playoffs. they, especially pippen, played with a chip on their shoulders and with lots of heart. but in the end, to be a true title contender, heart cant make up for lack of talent. the next year, they were brought back down to earth. they were hovering around the 5th seed before jordan came back. and then closed out the season something like 17-2.

in 95, yeah he failed to win the title, but you're really reaching if you're holding that against him. regular season is one thing but the playoffs are a different animal. not only do you have to be on top of your game physically and skillfully(you could make a good argument that he wasnt even that since he's adjusting his game on the fly to his aging body), but you have to be on it mentally too. you need extreme focus. any mental lapse can be costly. during jordan's two 3-peats, he never made costly mistakes. he didnt hit every shot, nor did he not not turn the ball over. but down the stretch of a game, you never saw him have mental lapse and make bad decisions. except for that series against the magic in 95. during his six title runs, that was the only time jordan didnt deliver. it was so mind boggling cuz i was so used to seeing him come through and bring home the victory. call me bias or whatever, but i blame that on the mental rust. being that in all other numerous circumstances of important playoff moments he delivered, i will give him the benefit of the doubt.

Jordan said something about that series that always stuck out in my mind. It always pops into my mind, because it showed me just at what high of a level you have to be in to compete in the NBA.

I don't remember the exact words, but here you have a guy who just came back to basketball, after a couple of games he scores 55 points against the Knicks, including that beautiful game winning pass to Bill Wenington, awareness. He's averaging 31.5 ppg in that playoffs. Superficially he looks just straight out skillful.

He specifically talked about this play https://youtu.be/3omh3nvCcrk?t=15

I don't remember exactly what he said, but basically he made a mistake that he otherwise wouldn't have made, if he was at his usual level.

And yes, Jordan rarely made mistakes in the clutch. (It is what it is). And that always sticks out to me when I watch Kobe and Lebron. For example, Lebron losing the ball while dribbling a couple of days ago, or Kobe getting blocked from behind by Hedo Turkoglu against the Magic.

People see it as if it's a put down against those guys, but it is what it is, Jordan's concentration, awareness level is not normal. And for as great at Kobe and Lebron's games my look superficially, mentally they are not at the level of awareness, concentration or whatever it was that Jordan was talking about, in reference to the video that I showed.

[Roundball_Rock]

I didn't know they wanted Hornacek . But even in that case the Jazz had to give up an aging all-star in Jeff Malone.

The Knicks only had to give up Tony Campbell & a nearly meaningless late 1st rd pick for a borderline all star in Derek Harper.



Derek Harper was more realistic & available for nothing & was a 2 time(?) 1st or 2nd team all defensive player.

Harper was a borderline NBA All star who had the misfortune of playing in conference with Magic & Stockton. So solid & respected as a Maverick that it has been announced that Cuban would eventually retire Harpers jersey.


Pete Myers ' defense' huh? :facepalm

Myers was hot garbage who should have never been in the NBA let alone start 82 games avererging 4 pts/2 rbs/2 assists when Derek Harper ( more realistic)& even Hornacek are available.


With Pete Myers in place of Jordan the Bulls win 55 games & if not for going 3-7 during a Pippen injury they actually improve upon the 1993 win total with Jordan(57 wins) & approach 60 wins.

Nearly 60 wins with a CBA journeyman in Pete Myers starting 82 games averaging 4/2/2:facepalm


Travesty that Phil & Pippen & those guys weren't given a better shot than being subjected to Pete ' friggin' Myers.

Jordan fans don't seen to like discussing Myers.

Agreed.

It is amusing to see Jordan stans claim the 94' Bulls were a fluke. The evidence proves otherwise. Flukes fade, i.e. the 13' Knicks. The 94' Bulls were in the hunt for the #1 seed from December through the end of the season. They then swept the #6 seed in the first round (the same team Chicago swept in 93') and then fought the Knicks to a draw in the ECSF.

What is really damning about the "fluke" excuse is the 1995 season. The Bulls lost Horace Grant along with Bill Cartwright after the 94' season and failed to remotely replace Grant. So you have a team that lost the alleged GOAT and an all-star PF in back-to-back seasons. You would think such a team would be lucky to get to 30 wins but the Bulls still were a 5th-6th place team in the East! Imagine, say, the Cavs losing LeBron and Love and replacing neither. Can anyone see them winning 45 games?

So if the Bulls were a 5th-6th place team in 95' without Grant logic suggests that if they retained Grant they would have been battling for the #1 seed in the East again.

The 94' Bulls should have won 60 games. Pippen missed 10 games, Grant 12, and Cartwright half the season. A healthy Bulls team would have won 60+ and HCA was critical in the Knicks series...

[LAZERUSS]

Agreed.

It is amusing to see Jordan stans claim the 94' Bulls were a fluke. The evidence proves otherwise. Flukes fade, i.e. the 13' Knicks. The 94' Bulls were in the hunt for the #1 seed from December through the end of the season. They then swept the #6 seed in the first round (the same team Chicago swept in 93') and then fought the Knicks to a draw in the ECSF.

What is really damning about the "fluke" excuse is the 1995 season. The Bulls lost Horace Grant along with Bill Cartwright after the 94' season and failed to remotely replace Grant. So you have a team that lost the alleged GOAT and an all-star PF in back-to-back seasons. You would think such a team would be lucky to get to 30 wins but the Bulls still were a 5th-6th place team in the East! Imagine, say, the Cavs losing LeBron and Love and replacing neither. Can anyone see them winning 45 games?

So if the Bulls were a 5th-6th place team in 95' without Grant logic suggests that if they retained Grant they would have been battling for the #1 seed in the East again.

The 94' Bulls should have won 60 games. Pippen missed 10 games, Grant 12, and Cartwright half the season. A healthy Bulls team would have won 60+ and HCA was critical in the Knicks series...

And all with the legendary Pete Myers replacing MJ.

Jordan's supporting casts from '90 thru '98 were easily the best in the league. True, he went 6/7 in that run, but he SHOULD have. Stacked rosters in a watered-down NBA. Hell, had he played in '94, he would have easily have one more ring on his resume (and Hakeem one less.) BUT, again, he SHOULD have.

[Blue&Orange]

The retards on this thread :lol

Knicks two years ago won 58 games with Melo JR, Shumpert and Felton, and other that aren't even in the league by now, while being the most injury stricken team in the NBA. They went 5-2 on Heat and spurs, including blowouts.


Yeah fluke seasons don't happen!!!

So yeah players that were verbally abused by Jordan didn't want to prove they could win without him and had a fluke season, it's just Jordan impact in the game = Pete Myers !!!


:roll: :roll: :roll:


:lol :lol :lol


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm



But hey carry on with your cute circle jerk.

[LAZERUSS]

The retards on this thread :lol

Knicks two years ago won 58 games with Melo JR, Shumpert and Felton, and other that aren't even in the league by now, while being the most injury stricken team in the NBA. They went 5-2 on Heat and spurs, including blowouts.


Yeah fluke seasons don't happen!!!

So yeah players that were verbally abused by Jordan didn't want to prove they could win without him and had a fluke season, it's just Jordan impact in the game = Pete Myers !!!


:roll: :roll: :roll:


:lol :lol :lol


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Wait...it was TWO fluke seasons. They went 55-27 without MJ (and as Roundball pointed out, would have won 60+ had they been decimated by injuries), and were basically the equal of the champion 58-24 Rockets...

and then with the same exact roster, except MJ replacing Grant, they get wiped out by a Magic team that would get swept by a 47-35 Rockets team in the Finals.

GTFO. Those Bulls rosters would have routinely challenged for titles without MJ. Furthermore, MJ's '96 to '98 rosters were even greater.

[Blue&Orange]

Wait...it was TWO fluke seasons. They went 55-27 without MJ (and as Roundball pointed out, would have won 60+ had they been decimated by injuries), and were basically the equal of the champion 58-24 Rockets...

and then with the same exact roster, except MJ replacing Grant, they get wiped out by a Magic team that would get swept by a 47-35 Rockets team in the Finals.


I don't even... :facepalm

what's your point? Adding Jordan and having a worse season proves that the previous wasn't a fluke? lol
Or that not only Pete Myers = Jordan but Horace Grant > Jordan? lol


Carry on brilliant stuff being said.

[LAZERUSS]

I don't even... :facepalm

what's your point? Adding Jordan and having a worse season proves that the previous wasn't a fluke? lol
Or that not only Pete Myers = Jordan but Horace Grant > Jordan? lol


Carry on brilliant stuff being said.

Oh, let's ignore this fact, ok?

The '95 Bulls went 34-31 without BOTH MJ and GRANT. A playoff team with out TWO of it's THREE best players.

You have no idea what the hell you are talking about, do you?

[3ball]

The Bulls needed MJ to lead the league in scoring for every championship they won - specifically, they needed him to average 35 PPG and 7 APG in the playoffs thru his first 3-peat, and 36 PPG and 8 APG in the Finals.

So the 1994 Bulls didn't win because they had talented players that could score a lot of points - they won because of the superior strategy, teamwork, and mental ability they accumulated while 3-peating with MJ...

[3ball]

The Bulls needed MJ to lead the league in scoring for every championship they won - specifically, they needed him to average 35 PPG and 7 APG in the playoffs thru his first 3-peat, and 36 PPG and 8 APG in the Finals.

So the 1994 Bulls didn't win because they had talented players that could score a lot of points - they won because of the superior strategy, teamwork, and mental ability they accumulated while 3-peating with MJ...


The 1990, 1991, of 1992 Bulls wouldn't have won 55 games without MJ - only a team that had accumulated sufficient strategy and mental ability from 3-peating could win 55 games with such a low level of talent.. Of course, reality came to light in the playoffs, where the Bulls proved to be an ordinary 2nd round exit team, just like say, this year's 55-win Grizzlies..

If MJ took this year's Griz to a 3-peat dynasty, he'd be considered GOAT... But ironically, the Griz show how little talent those 1994 Bulls had, because this year's Griz would never need MJ to average 32 PPG and lead the league in scoring in order to 3-peat... They have way more talent and wouldn't need MJ to do that..

But the fact that the Bulls needed so much scoring from MJ shows how little talent they really had and shows that they won 55 games based on the superior strategy, teamwork and mental ability accumulated from playing with MJ.

[Rocketswin2013]

The Bulls needed MJ to lead the league in scoring for every championship they won - specifically, they needed him to average 35 PPG and 7 APG in the playoffs thru his first 3-peat, and 36 PPG and 8 APG in the Finals.

So the 1994 Bulls didn't win because they had talented players that could score a lot of points - they won because of the superior strategy, teamwork, and mental ability they accumulated while 3-peating with MJ...
reported as spam.

[LAZERUSS]

The 1990, 1991, of 1992 Bulls wouldn't have won 55 games without MJ - only a team that had accumulated sufficient strategy and mental ability from 3-peating could win 55 games with such a low level of talent.. Of course, reality came to light in the playoffs, where the Bulls proved to be an ordinary 2nd round exit team, just like say, this year's 55-win Grizzlies..

If MJ took this year's Griz to a 3-peat dynasty, he'd be considered GOAT... But ironically, the Griz show how little talent those 1994 Bulls had, because this year's Griz would never need MJ to average 32 PPG and lead the league in scoring in order to 3-peat... They have way more talent and wouldn't need MJ to do that..

But the fact that the Bulls needed so much scoring from MJ shows how little talent they really had and shows that they won 55 games based on the superior strategy, teamwork and mental ability accumulated from playing with MJ.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

A HEALTHY '94 Bulls team, sans MJ, would have won 60+ games. As it was, with Pippen missing 10 games, and other players missing multiple games... 55-27.

That '94 team came within an eyelash of beating a 56-26 Knicks team, that would lose a close game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals (and in a series in which they outscored Houston.)

Sorry, but the FACTS are the FACTS.

The '94 Bulls, WITHOUT Jordan, were certainly capable of winning a title.

Furthermore, a fully refreshed MJ in the '95 post-season, couldn't carry the same exact roster that the '94 Bulls had, except without Grant, as far as the '94 team did without MJ. In fact, they were beaten 4-2 in the ECSF's by a team that would get swept by a 47-35 Rockets team in the Finals.

Again...PURE FACTS.

Furthermore, MJ's rosters from '96 thru '98 were FAR superior to his supporting casts from '91 thru '93.

[Blue&Orange]

Oh, let's ignore this fact, ok?

The '95 Bulls went 34-31 without BOTH MJ and GRANT. A playoff team with out TWO of it's THREE best players.

You have no idea what the hell you are talking about, do you?
SO it's getting wiped out by the magic with Jordan or going 34-31 without Jordan, which one it is? Are you confused?

So Bulls lost Grant, Cartwright, Paxson and was still a playoff team? how is that possible? What's that? In the NBA you can sign new players to replace players leaving? What does this mean? bulls kept changing role players and the end result was the same? Bu-bu-bu wasn't Jordan incredible lucky and had the best role players possible? lol :roll:


What these retards don't get it is that Jordan was a team player, he would play off ball, he would run screens, he was part off the team. All they see today is a guy holding the ball for 24 seconds and the other 4 players standing still behind the 3pt line. It's easier for Tristan Thompson to get offensive rebounds than defensive rebound, because you know they belong to Queen James. It's easier to replace a part of a well oiled system, even if that part is Jordan, than replace someone that is the system and everyone else is a means to statpadd.

Jordan also didn't left the bulls because they over the hill and injured and done.

[LAZERUSS]

SO it's getting wiped out by the magic with Jordan or going 34-31 without Jordan, which one it is? Are you confused?

So Bulls lost Grant, Cartwright, Paxson and was still a playoff team? how is that possible? What's that? In the NBA you can sign new players to replace players leaving? What does this mean? bulls kept changing role players and the end result was the same? Bu-bu-bu wasn't Jordan incredible lucky and had the best role players possible? lol :roll:


What these retards don't get it is that Jordan was a team player, he would play off ball, he would run screens, he was part off the team. All they see today is a guy holding the ball for 24 seconds and the other 4 players standing still behind the 3pt line. It's easier for Tristan Thompson to get offensive rebounds than defensive rebound, because you know they belong to Queen James.

Jordan also didn't left the bulls because they over the hill and injured and done.

No, it's an MJ basically replacing Grant from the '94 team, that could have easily won a title..and then not only not getting them any further, but in all reality, doing considerably worse. BTW, Grant was on the team that wiped out his '95 Bulls in the ECSF's.

FACTS my friend...FACTS.

[LAZERUSS]

The bottom line...

MJ went 6/7 in rings from '91 thru '98 (missing '94)...and SHOULD have gone 7/7.

Best supporting rosters...BY FAR...in that span.

[triangleoffense]

And all with the legendary Pete Myers replacing MJ.

Jordan's supporting casts from '90 thru '98 were easily the best in the league. True, he went 6/7 in that run, but he SHOULD have. Stacked rosters in a watered-down NBA. Hell, had he played in '94, he would have easily have one more ring on his resume (and Hakeem one less.) BUT, again, he SHOULD have.
:biggums:

[3ball]

MJ went 6/7 in rings from '91 thru '98 (missing '94)...and SHOULD have gone 7/7.


Every single Bulls championship required MJ to lead the league in scoring, which by definition, proves he had the LEAST scoring help of anyone in the league... The sky is blue boss.

Specifically, the Bulls needed MJ to average 36 PPG and 8 APG in the Finals to 3-peat from 1991-1993.. This is simply the most production any player has EVER been required to produce for rings.. :confusedshrug:

[LAZERUSS]

:biggums:

What a compelling argument.

[LAZERUSS]

Every single Bulls championship required MJ to lead the league in scoring, which by definition, proves he had the LEAST scoring help of anyone in the league... The sky is blue boss.

Specifically, the Bulls needed MJ to average 36 PPG and 8 APG in the Finals to 3-peat from 1991-1993.. This is simply the most production any player has EVER been required to produce for a ring.. :confusedshrug:

Had they replaced MJ with even a 20 ppg scorer in those seven seasons, and they likely would have won multiple rings. Maybe all of them.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Had they replaced MJ with even a 20 ppg scorer in those seven seasons, and they likely would have won multiple rings. Maybe all of them.

You are getting carried away now. MJ's intangibles alone provided more than just being a "20 ppg" scorer. Get real.

[3ball]

Had they replaced MJ with even a 20 ppg scorer in those seven seasons, and they likely would have won multiple rings. Maybe all of them.
If the Bulls had replaced MJ with a 20 PPG scorer, they don't beat the Cavs in 1989 ECF.. The Bulls needed EXACTLY 40/6/8 on 60% TS, plus a walk-off Ray Allen to win that series.

:yaohappy: .. So try again

Heck, with weak-minded Pippen's 14.4 PPG as a 2nd option, the Bulls were only a 6-seed in 1989 - if Mitch's 20/4/4 replaced MJ's 33/8/8 and goat clutch, the Bulls miss playoffs... badly

But hey, maybe you're right - if they miss playoffs and get good lottery pick, maybe they get Robinson in 1989 draft?.. Shaq in 1992?.. You might have something boss

[LAZERUSS]

You are getting carried away now. MJ's intangibles alone provided more than just being a "20 ppg" scorer. Get real.

Yes, he did. But let's not act like he was single-handedly carrying those rosters...which is what the MJ fans will tell you.

When MJ had ordinary rosters, he went 1-9 in the playoffs. With Pippen and Grant, they still couldn't beat a prime "Bad Boys" team in three straight playoff series. It wasn't until those Pistons fell completely apart, that he finally won a ring.

And again, both '94 and '95 are HUGE black-eyes against a peak MJ.

The '94 roster, with a 20 ppg scorer, instead of Pete Myers...and easy title.

And, when a fully refreshed MJ joined that same roster, except basically replacing Grant...even WORSE in the '95 post-season.

[f0und]

Jordan said something about that series that always stuck out in my mind. It always pops into my mind, because it showed me just at what high of a level you have to be in to compete in the NBA.

I don't remember the exact words, but here you have a guy who just came back to basketball, after a couple of games he scores 55 points against the Knicks, including that beautiful game winning pass to Bill Wenington, awareness. He's averaging 31.5 ppg in that playoffs. Superficially he looks just straight out skillful.

He specifically talked about this play https://youtu.be/3omh3nvCcrk?t=15

I don't remember exactly what he said, but basically he made a mistake that he otherwise wouldn't have made, if he was at his usual level.

And yes, Jordan rarely made mistakes in the clutch. (It is what it is). And that always sticks out to me when I watch Kobe and Lebron. For example, Lebron losing the ball while dribbling a couple of days ago, or Kobe getting blocked from behind by Hedo Turkoglu against the Magic.

People see it as if it's a put down against those guys, but it is what it is, Jordan's concentration, awareness level is not normal. And for as great at Kobe and Lebron's games my look superficially, mentally they are not at the level of awareness, concentration or whatever it was that Jordan was talking about, in reference to the video that I showed.

i see it all the time from today's superstars. bad passes, turnovers, ill advised chucking, missing easy layups, or flat out disappearing during the winning stretches of playoff games. all the perimeter superstars do it and surprisingly, its not uncommon. for as good and skilled as bron, kobe, wade, durant and the like are, ive seen them do absolutely moronic things down the stretch of a game countless times. but like you said, jordan's concentration, focus, awareness, and decision making down the stretch is unmatched. he never had any meaningful mental lapses, except for that time in 95 when he came back from a near two year absence to play in the playoffs against the absolute highest level of basketball.

[LAZERUSS]

You move MJ's 90 Bulls into the 80's, and he would not have won anywhere near six rings. Perhaps two.

[AirFederer]

You move MJ's 90 Bulls into the 80's, and he would not have won anywhere near six rings. Perhaps two.

You move Wilt anywhere and he wins nothing and even his much beloved stats go bust

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yes, he did. But let's not act like he was single-handedly carrying those rosters...which is what the MJ fans will tell you.

When MJ had ordinary rosters, he went 1-9 in the playoffs. With Pippen and Grant, they still couldn't beat a prime "Bad Boys" team in three straight playoff series. It wasn't until those Pistons fell completely apart, that he finally won a ring.

And again, both '94 and '95 are HUGE black-eyes against a peak MJ.

The '94 roster, with a 20 ppg scorer, instead of Pete Myers...and easy title.

And, when a fully refreshed MJ joined that same roster, except basically replacing Grant...even WORSE in the '95 post-season.

Those rosters were similar to the Kobe Bryant one's in 2006 and 2007, except both years Mike faced 2 of the greatest teams ever.

I mean, with those Bulls rosters, could you name another perimeter player that would've lead Chicago past those Celtics? :confusedshrug: