Finals: '08 Gasol/Odom- 27/19 on 52%FG vs '15 Mozgov/Thompson- 24/22 on 51%FG

[DFish24]

Which frontcourt duo would you rather have? Statistically they're about even so far, but im thinking maybe a slight edge to the Cavs duo. Thoughts?

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Why did you leave out assists?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Cavs easily way better defensively

[DonDadda59]

Lakers by a mile. Far more skilled and they could create their own shots and create for others. Gasol is a damn franchise player.

Mosgov is getting bird fed points against 6'7" defenders and Thompson is living off of LeBron bricks. He's a glorified garbage man.

[nzahir]

Scoring ability of lakers frontline>>
Passing ability of lakers>>>>>>>
Versatility of La Bigs>>>>>
Radmonovich and Ronny>James Jones and Perkins?
TT and Mozgove better defensively, but not by much tbh.

So 28 19 and 6 is better than 23 22 and 1.5? **** outa here OP.

[Smook B]

Get out of here OP:roll:

[tpols]

08 Gasol and Odom had to go against prime Kevin Garnett led, deep frontcourt.. Mozzy and thompson get to face draymond green and bogut.. so they have a huge lack of competition.


Thing though is Paul Pierce and Ray Allen > Steph and Klay by a decent amount.. Cant use lock down iggy as an excuse when the C's had Tony Allen. They were just a superior team in every way to the current GS warriors.



If 08 Lakers got to face this GS team in the finals after pathetic east competition they mightve gone 16-1 or 16-2.

[tpols]

Scoring ability of lakers frontline>>
Passing ability of lakers>>>>>>>
Versatility of La Bigs>>>>>
Radmonovich and Ronny>James Jones and Perkins?
TT and Mozgove better defensively, but not by much tbh.

So 28 19 and 6 is better than 23 22 and 1.5? **** outa here OP.

Physicality/Defense/Rebounding of Thompson/Mozgov >> .

And that goes a looong way in the playoffs where you're battling, physically, against the same guys over and over and over.

[DFish24]

Scoring ability of lakers frontline>>
Passing ability of lakers>>>>>>>
Versatility of La Bigs>>>>>
Radmonovich and Ronny>James Jones and Perkins?
TT and Mozgove better defensively, but not by much tbh.

So 28 19 and 6 is better than 23 22 and 1.5? **** outa here OP.

Odom/Gasol=Mozgov/Thompson
Fisher<Dellevedova
Radmanovich<J.R. Smith
Vujacic, Farmar, Walton, Turiaf<Shumpert, Jones, Miller, Perkins

[nzahir]

Odom/Gasol=Mozgov/Thompson
Fisher<Dellevedova
Radmanovich<J.R. Smith
Vujacic, Farmar, Walton, Turiaf<Shumpert, Jones, Miller, Perkins
:facepalm The disrespect towards gasol and odom. Laker fans are by far the worst, trash everyone besides kobe(the real problem, taking all your money and not playing for 2 years now). This franchise doesnt deserve shit and I live in la and was born there.

Supporting cast ranking:
1. Gasol
2. Odom
3-4. Mozgov/Tristan
5. Iman
6. Jr
Lakers were better up top in terms of quality teammates, gasol was an all star. Lakers also had more bodies overall

[34-24 Footwork]

:facepalm The disrespect towards gasol and odom. Laker fans are by far the worst, trash everyone besides kobe(the real problem, taking all your money and not playing for 2 years now). This franchise doesnt deserve shit and I live in la and was born there.

Supporting cast ranking:
1. Gasol
2. Odom
3-4. Mozgov/Tristan
5. Iman
6. Jr
Lakers were better up top in terms of quality teammates, gasol was an all star. Lakers also had more bodies overall


Gawd, you're an awful poster. How's Gasol, Sasha, Radmanovich, Shannon Brown, Dj Mbenga, Powell, Bynum and Odom doing without Kobe these days?

Serious question.

[FKAri]

There is literally no analyst in the universe who would make this argument. lmao.

[SouBeachTalents]

Gawd, you're an awful poster. How's Gasol, Sasha, Radmanovich, Shannon Brown, Dj Mbenga, Powell, Bynum and Odom doing without Kobe these days?

Serious question.

How's Kobe playing these days?

[HOoopCityJones]

How's Kobe playing these days?

Better than Lebron will be playing at thirty seven, that's for damn sure. :oldlol:

[34-24 Footwork]

How's Kobe playing these days?

I don't understand your question. In your opinion, Gasol Is a top 10 big man of all time and Kobe only got rings two more rings because of Gasol.

Explain Gasol's career before Kobe.:rolleyes:

[SouBeachTalents]

I don't understand your question. In your opinion, Gasol Is a top 10 big man of all time and Kobe only got rings two more rings because of Gasol.

Explain Gasol's career before Kobe.:rolleyes:

Ummm..... when the **** did I say that? I was just pointing out how ridiculous your question was asking how players from a team 7 years ago are doing. By the same rationale a Pierce fan could say the same thing to downplay his teammates in '08, it'd be equally as ridiculous

[nzahir]

Gawd, you're an awful poster. How's Gasol, Sasha, Radmanovich, Shannon Brown, Dj Mbenga, Powell, Bynum and Odom doing without Kobe these days?

Serious question.
Who was Delly before Lebron?
Wtf was haywood doing? Where did kyrie and TT lead the cavs to last year? What were iman and jr doing in NY? What was mozgov doing in denver?
How about you use your ****ing brain

WTF IS KOBE DOING THESE DAYS?

Bruh you literally just placed yourself in the category of dumbass

[Xiengqichess]

Le Bron's fans only care about stats. The stats look the same to me, and The cavs bigs play better defense.

[PickernRoller]

Which frontcourt duo would you rather have? Statistically they're about even so far, but im thinking maybe a slight edge to the Cavs duo. Thoughts?

Given their respective opponents, the Cavs duo... better defense, better match-ups.

Individually give me Gasol, **** Mozgov, give me Thompson, **** Odom.

[SyRyanYang]

Gasol and Odom faced Perkins and Mozgov/TT has Perkins on their team. Let that sink in for a moment

[BlackWhiteGreen]

08 Gasol and Odom had to go against prime Kevin Garnett led, deep frontcourt.. Mozzy and thompson get to face draymond green and bogut.. so they have a huge lack of competition.

Thing though is Paul Pierce and Ray Allen > Steph and Klay by a decent amount.. Cant use lock down iggy as an excuse when the C's had Tony Allen. They were just a superior team in every way to the current GS warriors.

If 08 Lakers got to face this GS team in the finals after pathetic east competition they mightve gone 16-1 or 16-2.

4.3 minutes/game in the 08 playoffs. And given what a mess the rotation was in the first 2 series, he probably played less than that in the Finals. EDIT: 19 total minutes in 3 games, didn't even see the court in 3 of the games

[ImKobe]

I have to go with the Cavs' front court. Mozgov and TT are a better rebounding front court

[Blue&Orange]

Le Bron's fans only care about stats. The stats look the same to me, and The cavs bigs play better defense.

Gasol and Odom faced Perkins and Mozgov/TT has Perkins on their team. Let that sink in for a moment

Even if you take Gasol\Odom another Lebron myth is being exposed.

[ArbitraryWater]

Lakers by a mile. Far more skilled and they could create their own shots and create for others. Gasol is a damn franchise player.

Mosgov is getting bird fed points against 6'7" defenders and Thompson is living off of LeBron bricks. He's a glorified garbage man.

this was thread right here... Mozgov fed and has a high scoring series for once, Kobetards go ape shit with their insecurities..


08 Gasol and Odom had to go against prime Kevin Garnett led, deep frontcourt.. Mozzy and thompson get to face draymond green and bogut.. so they have a huge lack of competition.


Thing though is Paul Pierce and Ray Allen > Steph and Klay by a decent amount.. Cant use lock down iggy as an excuse when the C's had Tony Allen. They were just a superior team in every way to the current GS warriors.



If 08 Lakers got to face this GS team in the finals after pathetic east competition they mightve gone 16-1 or 16-2.

this guy didnt even watch :lol :facepalm

[LBJMVP]

take away game 4 and mozgov is averaging 13 points a game...

[DMAVS41]

this was thread right here... Mozgov fed and has a high scoring series for once, Kobetards go ape shit with their insecurities..



this guy didnt even watch :lol :facepalm

I know.

I used to think he was a good poster...now he's just off the rails.

Tony Allen was literally the 12th man on that Celtics team. He played in like hal of the playoff games that year and he made no impact whatsoever on the finals. Just absurd.

The 08 Lakers supporting cast was clearly better than this Cavs team right now around Lebron.

[ArbitraryWater]

I know.

I used to think he was a good poster...now he's just off the rails.

Tony Allen was literally the 12th man on that Celtics team. He played in like hal of the playoff games that year and he made no impact whatsoever on the finals. Just absurd.

The 08 Lakers supporting cast was clearly better than this Cavs team right now around Lebron.

Its not just that he mentioned him, but he seriously mentioned him to cancel out Igoudala... 'you can't say they had him cause Celtics had this guy!' um.. :lol

[Ne 1]

I have to go with the Cavs' front court. Mozgov and TT are a better rebounding front court

Thompsons offensive rebounding has actually helped make up for James' shooting woes. He keeps buying possession after possession, which not only creates second chance points for the Cavs, but huge momentum shifts as well. The Cavs are getting more shot opportunities from offensive rebounds basically negating many of their misses. He might be the best offensive rebounder in the NBA, and Mozgov is playing like an elite rim protector right now.

The Cavs outside of James aren't big name players, but they're playing big time. They're making big plays. What they're doing is comparable to big name players. Delly is playing defense like Tony Allen. Mozgov is playing as if hes the best center in the league, locking down that paint. Basically having the same impact as a Demarcus Cousins. Thompson is playing like Joakim Noah. What would everyone be saying if the Cavs had LeBron James, Joakim Noah, Demarcus Cousins, and Tony Allen? Along with one of the best 6th men in the league, and former 6th man-of-the-year in JR Smith and Iman Shumpert, who is one of the better perimeter/wing defenders in the NBA.

[DMAVS41]

Thompsons offensive rebounding has actually helped make up for James' shooting woes. He keeps buying possession after possession, which not only creates second chance points for the Cavs, but huge momentum shifts as well. The Cavs are getting more shot opportunities from offensive rebounds basically negating many of their misses. He might be the best offensive rebounder in the NBA, and Mozgov is playing like an elite rim protector right now.

The Cavs outside of James aren't big name players, but they're playing big time. They're making big plays. What they're doing is comparable to big name players. Delly is playing defense like Tony Allen. Mozgov is playing as if hes the best center in the league, locking down that paint. Basically having the same impact as a Demarcus Cousins. Thompson is playing like Joakim Noah. What would everyone be saying if the Cavs had LeBron James, Joakim Noah, Demarcus Cousins, and Tony Allen? Along with one of the best 6th men in the league, and former 6th man-of-the-year in JR Smith and Iman Shumpert, who is one of the better perimeter/wing defenders in the NBA.

God this is so pathetic.

Mozgov and Thompson are playing well...everyone else? Just no.

And the bar is so low on some of these guys.

Delly is playing hard, but he's Delly...he's not a good player in this role.

JR and Shump have been dreadful in this series.

James Jones is just a body. Does nothing of note.

What series are you watching? JR, Shump, and Delly literally can't make shots. JR and Shump are under 38% TS each. Do you realize how awful that is on open shots? Delly is at an abysmal 43% TS.

Thompson has been good, but he can't score. He's absolutely no threat whatsoever to score any points that matter. He's at 46% TS this series. His rebounding and defense make him a good player here, but he's not great. This Cavs team needs him to be able to actually score a few points on some decent efficiency...he can't and it's hurting them. 7/14 while not being an offensive threat does not make him Pau Gasol....sorry.


They're playing big time? Absolutely not.

Pau, Odom, Fisher, and Farmar all scored very well against that great Boston defense. Each one of those guys scored on 56% TS or better. It seems here everyone is saying the 08 Celtics are better than the Warriors and played better defense....that makes this gap even bigger. It's not that close...there is a reason why the 15 Cavs are one of the worst supporting cast to ever make the finals.

I agree this Cavs team is playing good defense...better defense than the Lakers did, but there is no doubt which team was better around their star player. And pretending like the Cavs have been playing "big" is the biggest joke ever. The standards we have for some of these guys are absurd. Going on and on about a player averaging 10/3/3 on 43% TS with an 84 ortg like he's playing well...absurd.

[sd3035]

Cavs easily, they are way better defensively, and Mozgov can create his own shot. Gasol was bird fed by Kobe

[Braincells]

I know this topic seems ridiculous at first, but Gasol in Memphis was essentially another Shareef Abdur Rahim. The quintessential non-impact player who put up good stats on a mediocre team. Whenever the Grizzles did make the playoffs (3 times with Pau), they would get swept in the first round because his inside presence on the defensive end wasn't good enough to deter offenses. He wasn't anywhere near Duncan or Garnett in terms of team impact.

Someone alluded to him being a franchise player, which is something Gasol could never be in Memphis. A franchise big has some semblance of an inside presence and makes teams think twice about attacking the post. Teams would expose Gasol down low because he was exactly what he was: a soft euro in the paint who had a nice offensive touch.

Duncan, Garnett, Yao were franchise players who anchored their respective defenses. Gasol was good, but definitely a tier below those guys in terms of defensive and offensive impact.

[DMAVS41]

I know this topic seems ridiculous at first, but Gasol in Memphis was essentially another Shareef Abdur Rahim. The quintessential non-impact player who put up good stats on a mediocre team. Whenever the Grizzles did make the playoffs (3 times with Pau), they would get swept in the first round because his inside presence on the defensive end wasn't good enough to deter offenses. He wasn't anywhere near Duncan or Garnett in terms of team impact.

Someone alluded to him being a franchise player, which is something Gasol could never be in Memphis. A franchise big has some semblance of an inside presence and makes teams think twice about attacking the post. Teams would expose Gasol down low because he was exactly what he was - a soft euro in the paint who had a nice offensive touch.

Duncan, Garnett, Yao were franchise players who anchored their respective defenses. Gasol was good, but definitely a tier below those guys in terms of defensive and offensive impact.

I agree Pau was a tier below KG and Duncan, but he was a better player, much better imo, than Abdur-Rahim.

Franchise guy? Actually pretty close....but he's better suited to be a 2nd banana.

[Braincells]

I agree Pau was a tier below KG and Duncan, but he was a better player, much better imo, than Abdur-Rahim.

Franchise guy? Actually pretty close....but he's better suited to be a 2nd banana.

Yes... he needed to be paired up with a true franchise player (Kobe) to be more effective. He was able to utilize himself defensively with Kobe anchoring the offense. Not a franchise player, but probably among the best 2nd fiddle big guys you can get.

[97 bulls]

Yes... he needed to be paired up with a true franchise player (Kobe) to be more effective. He was able to utilize himself defensively with Kobe anchoring the offense. Not a franchise player, but probably among the best 2nd fiddle big guys you can get.
This line of reasoning is so flawed. Did Gasol have anyone on his team ( Memphis) as he was????

Why does Gasol have to win with less when Bryant couldn't????

[DonDadda59]

I know this topic seems ridiculous at first, but Gasol in Memphis was essentially another Shareef Abdur Rahim. The quintessential non-impact player who put up good stats on a mediocre team. Whenever the Grizzles did make the playoffs (3 times with Pau), they would get swept in the first round because his inside presence on the defensive end wasn't good enough to deter offenses. He wasn't anywhere near Duncan or Garnett in terms of team impact.

Someone alluded to him being a franchise player, which is something Gasol could never be in Memphis. A franchise big has some semblance of an inside presence and makes teams think twice about attacking the post. Teams would expose Gasol down low because he was exactly what he was: a soft euro in the paint who had a nice offensive touch.

Duncan, Garnett, Yao were franchise players who anchored their respective defenses. Gasol was good, but definitely a tier below those guys in terms of defensive and offensive impact.

:biggums:

Dude led the Grizzlies, a franchise that had never won more than 23 games before he got there (with Abdur Rahim on the squad), to several playoff berths and even a 50 win season. Who was his best teammate? Shane Battier? Mike Miller?

He just led the NBA in double-doubles at age 34 and led the Bulls to 50 wins while the roster was decimated by injuries all season.

Give Mosgov or Thompson their own franchises to anchor, with Shane Battier as their no. 2... do you think their teams win even 20 games? I don't.

[DonDadda59]

This line of reasoning is so flawed. Did Gasol have anyone on his team ( Memphis) as he was????

Why does Gasol have to win with less when Bryant couldn't????

Exactly :lol

After Shaq left, Kobe couldn't even make the playoffs after the Lakers had just gone to the finals 4 of the previous 5 seasons. Guess that means he's not a franchise player. :facepalm

[97 bulls]

:biggums:

Dude led the Grizzlies, a franchise that had never won more than 23 games before he got there (with Abdur Rahim on the squad), to several playoff berths and even a 50 win season. Who was his best teammate? Shane Battier? Mike Miller?

He just led the NBA in double-doubles at age 34 and led the Bulls to 50 wins while the roster was decimated by injuries all season.

Give Mosgov or Thompson their own franchises to anchor, with Shane Battier as their no. 2... do you think their teams win even 20 games? I don't.
Exactly. Should I be concerned that I've been agreeing with you alot lately

[DonDadda59]

Exactly. Should I be concerned that I've been agreeing with you alot lately

Probably :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

Thompsons offensive rebounding has actually helped make up for James' shooting woes. He keeps buying possession after possession, which not only creates second chance points for the Cavs, but huge momentum shifts as well. The Cavs are getting more shot opportunities from offensive rebounds basically negating many of their misses. He might be the best offensive rebounder in the NBA, and Mozgov is playing like an elite rim protector right now.

The Cavs outside of James aren't big name players, but they're playing big time. They're making big plays. What they're doing is comparable to big name players. Delly is playing defense like Tony Allen. Mozgov is playing as if hes the best center in the league, locking down that paint. Basically having the same impact as a Demarcus Cousins. Thompson is playing like Joakim Noah. What would everyone be saying if the Cavs had LeBron James, Joakim Noah, Demarcus Cousins, and Tony Allen? Along with one of the best 6th men in the league, and former 6th man-of-the-year in JR Smith and Iman Shumpert, who is one of the better perimeter/wing defenders in the NBA.

I don't understand how Kobe fans delude themselves to this... it's like a disease, everything related or compared to Kobe suddenly makes them lose anything rationale and fantasize like crazy.

[Braincells]

This line of reasoning is so flawed. Did Gasol have anyone on his team ( Memphis) as he was????

Why does Gasol have to win with less when Bryant couldn't????

:wtf:

This is like asking why Jordan couldn't win without Pippen.

[Braincells]

:biggums:

Dude led the Grizzlies, a franchise that had never won more than 23 games before he got there (with Abdur Rahim on the squad), to several playoff berths and even a 50 win season. Who was his best teammate? Shane Battier? Mike Miller?

He just led the NBA in double-doubles at age 34 and led the Bulls to 50 wins while the roster was decimated by injuries all season.

Give Mosgov or Thompson their own franchises to anchor, with Shane Battier as their no. 2... do you think their teams win even 20 games? I don't.

:wtf:

He had 6 other players that averaged double figures in a few of those seasons. Hardly a lack of talent. It was a matter of a coach utilizing the team the best way he could with average to good role players. And Shane Battier and James Posey were good defenders in their prime. I am still LOLing @ the thought of Gasol being a franchise player when he couldn't win a single playoff game with them.

Kobe, at the very least, won a few games with Smush Parker as the third best player on the team. Don't pretend there wasn't a talent disparity between the Lakers and Grizzles.

[97 bulls]

:wtf:

This is like asking why Jordan couldn't win without Pippen.
Thats not even relevant to the discussion. No one is making the claim that Gasol is better than Bryant. But to say hes not a franchise player based on his success in Memphis is just not a fair assessment. Especially when Bryant wasn't even remotely as successful

The fact is great players need great players to win.

[IllegalD]

Thats not even relevant to the discussion. No one is making the claim that Gasol is better than Bryant. But to say hes not a franchise player based on his success in Memphis is just not a fair assessment. Especially when Bryant wasn't even remotely as successful

The fact is great players need great players to win.

Bryant actually won playoff games without Gasol, Gasol never won sh*t.

BTW, how did Gasol do in 2013 in the playoffs after Kobe went down with the Achilles? If he was as good as you say he was I think he should've been able to get at least ONE win with Dwight Howard as his 2nd best player.

How did Gasol do in 2014 when Kobe went down for the whole season?

How did Gasol do this year in the postseason with arguably one of the most talented teams he's been on his whole career and in a weaker Leastern Conference?

Based on your criteria then Scottie Pippen is a franchise player, no? And one that is far superior to Gasol based on how well he did sans Jordan (winning 55 games without MJ on the Bulls, being one 4th quarter meltdown from leading the Blazers to a ring without MJ)

[Braincells]

Thats not even relevant to the discussion. No one is making the claim that Gasol is better than Bryant. But to say hes not a franchise player based on his success in Memphis is just not a fair assessment. Especially when Bryant wasn't even remotely as successful

The fact is great players need great players to win.

You are completely misrepresenting what I said.

He said Gasol was a franchise player. I said it was ridiculous to call him anywhere close to it because that would be placing him in the same tier as Duncan, Yao, Garnett - players that impact the game on both ends of the floor, and sell tickets while they are at it.

Teams have to come with up with game plans to stop these aforementioned players and make adjustments on every sequence down the floor. They did nothing of that sort to Gasol, even in his best seasons with the Grizzles. He didn't demand doubles and they would defend him upfront. Similarly, he didn't have any semblance of an impact on the defensive end.

It's true Gasol had three winning seasons in Memphis, but they were a team built for the regular season. Sometimes, coaching and good role players can get you 50 wins.

Similarly, Jordan is a tier above Pippen in terms of impact.

[DonDadda59]

:wtf:

He had 6 other players that averaged double figures in a few of those seasons. Hardly a lack of talent. It was a matter of a coach utilizing the team the best way he could with average to good role players. And Shane Battier and James Posey were good defenders in their prime. I am still LOLing @ the thought of Gasol being a franchise player when he couldn't win a single playoff game with them.

Gasol's top 3 supporting cast during his 50 win season
James Posey: 14/5/2
Jason Williams: 11/2/6
Bonzi Wells: 12/3/2


Kobe's top 3 supporting cast during his 34 win season (first post Shaq)

Lamar Odom: 15/10/4
Caron Butler: 16/5/2
Chucky Atkins: 14/2/4

*A rookie DWade led Odom and Butler to the second round in his first postseason run*

*Lakers, led by Shaq, had made 4 of the previous 5 finals, winning 3 straight*

That settles it, Bean's not a franchise player. Couldn't even get out of the first round without Pau.

[triangleoffense]

Not sure but what's for certain is that 2008 Celtics and 2008 Lakers > 2015 Cavs and 2015 GSW

[Braincells]

Gasol's top 3 supporting cast during his 50 win season
James Posey: 14/5/2
Jason Williams: 11/2/6
Bonzi Wells: 12/3/2


Kobe's top 3 supporting cast during his 34 win season (first post Shaq)

Lamar Odom: 15/10/4
Caron Butler: 16/5/2
Chucky Atkins: 14/2/4

*A rookie DWade led Odom and Butler to the second round in his first postseason run*

*Lakers, led by Shaq, had made 4 of the previous 5 finals, winning 3 straight*

That settles it, Bean's not a franchise player. Couldn't even get out of the first round without Pau.

lol @ not mentioning Kobe's injury and conference in the 04-05 season.

The Lakers held the 6th seed in the 04-05 season before Kobe went down with the shoulder injury. He was utilizing the talent appropriately and the Lakers were playoff bound. He ended up missing 15 games and it dropped them out of the playoff race.

When happens when Jordan misses 15 games? He'll have Pippen carry the load for him.

[longtime lurker]

lol @ not mentioning Kobe's injury and conference in the 04-05 season.

The Lakers held the 6th seed in the 04-05 season before Kobe went down with the shoulder injury. He was utilizing the talent appropriately and the Lakers were playoff bound. He ended up missing 15 games and it dropped them out of the playoff race.

When happens when Jordan misses 15 games? He'll have Pippen carry the load for him.

Lol don't waste your breath. These guys are idiots that hate just to hate. They conveniently twist facts and leave out information to suit their agenda. There's nothing wrong with saying Pau Gasol isn't a franchise player. Every person with a single brain cell would agree, Pau himself would tell you the same thing. At that takes nothing away from what he's accomplished and the championships that he's brought the Lakers. I've heard more ridiculous claims like Russell Westbrook and Chris Bosh aren't franchise players.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Gasol's top 3 supporting cast during his 50 win season
James Posey: 14/5/2
Jason Williams: 11/2/6
Bonzi Wells: 12/3/2


Kobe's top 3 supporting cast during his 34 win season (first post Shaq)

Lamar Odom: 15/10/4
Caron Butler: 16/5/2
Chucky Atkins: 14/2/4

*A rookie DWade led Odom and Butler to the second round in his first postseason run*

*Lakers, led by Shaq, had made 4 of the previous 5 finals, winning 3 straight*

That settles it, Bean's not a franchise player. Couldn't even get out of the first round without Pau.

Flawed imo. Kobe's coach quit midway thru the season, and Kobe himself missed about a quarter the year. As did Odom.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lol don't waste your breath. These guys are idiots that hate just to hate. They conveniently twist facts and leave out information to suit their agenda. There's nothing wrong with saying Pau Gasol isn't a franchise player. Every person with a single brain cell would agree, Pau himself would tell you the same thing. At that takes nothing away from what he's accomplished and the championships that he's brought the Lakers. I've heard more ridiculous claims like Russell Westbrook and Chris Bosh aren't franchise players.

How the **** is Bosh a franchise player but not Gasol?

[DonDadda59]

lol @ not mentioning Kobe's injury and conference in the 04-05 season.



Flawed imo. Kobe's coach quit midway thru the season, and Kobe himself missed about a quarter the year.

'03-'04: Kobe 65 games (Lakers 56 wins, reach the finals)
'04-'05: Kobe 66 games (Lakers 34-48, miss the playoffs for only the second time since the mid 70s)

Kobe = empty stats?:confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

'03-'04: Kobe 65 games (Lakers 56 wins, reach the finals)
'04-'05: Kobe 66 games (Lakers 34-48, miss the playoffs for only the second time since the mid 70s)

Kobe = empty stats?:confusedshrug:

The 03-04 Lakers had the GOAT coach (not just for half the season, but the entire year), the MDE and a more experienced team to boot.

I don't think Kobe is an empty stat-padder. Do you?

[Braincells]

'03-'04: Kobe 65 games (Lakers 56 wins, reach the finals)
'04-'05: Kobe 66 games (Lakers 34-48, miss the playoffs for only the second time since the mid 70s)

Kobe = empty stats?:confusedshrug:

Kobe's W/L in 03-04 playoffs: 13-9.

Gasol's total playoff wins in Memphis: 0.

[DonDadda59]

I don't think Kobe is an empty stat-padder. Do you?

I've learned in this thread that he doesn't qualify as a franchise player. :confusedshrug:

Plus his record without Fisher... http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/sick/barfing-smiley-emoticon.gif


Shaq's W/L in 03-04 playoffs: 13-9.

Fixed.

[DMAVS41]

Yes... he needed to be paired up with a true franchise player (Kobe) to be more effective. He was able to utilize himself defensively with Kobe anchoring the offense. Not a franchise player, but probably among the best 2nd fiddle big guys you can get.

Yea...it depends on your definition of a franchise player.

I mean...you add...say...Kirilenko and Michael Redd to that team in 04 and they probably win 60 games.

Gasol is still the best player imo and they'd be a legit title contender.

I agree he's better suited to be a 2nd guy on a title team, but lets not ignore that he got a very average Grizzlies squad to average 48 wins in the West over a 3 year period from 04 through 06. Not many guys are good enough to do that.

[Braincells]

BRB drafting David Lee (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2772/david-lee) over Anthony Davis in NBA2k15 fantasy draft.

We championship now.

[DonDadda59]

Anthony Davis

Just got swept in the playoffs. Not a franchise player. :no:

[Braincells]

Yea...it depends on your definition of a franchise player.

I mean...you add...say...Kirilenko and Michael Redd to that team in 04 and they probably win 60 games.

Gasol is still the best player imo and they'd be a legit title contender.

I agree he's better suited to be a 2nd guy on a title team, but lets not ignore that he got a very average Grizzlies squad to average 48 wins in the West over a 3 year period from 04 through 06. Not many guys are good enough to do that.

It's Al Horford / Joe Johnson on the Hawks all over again. When you have a 8 to 9 deep team capable of playing defense and scoring double figures any given night, you have a recipe for the playoffs. It's not going to get you very far, though or mass playoff wins.

[Braincells]

Just got swept in the playoffs. Not a franchise player. :no:

I wonder what else that crystal ball shows for the Pelicans. Does he shave that unibrow?

[97 bulls]

Bryant actually won playoff games without Gasol, Gasol never won sh*t.
Lol. So????? The Lakers were first round fodder just like the Grizzlies.



BTW, how did Gasol do in 2013 in the playoffs after Kobe went down with the Achilles? If he was as good as you say he was I think he should've been able to get at least ONE win with Dwight Howard as his 2nd best player.
They (Dantoni) had Gasol on the perimeter. He was playing out if place. Lets be realistic
How did Gasol do in 2014 when Kobe went down for the whole season?


How did Gasol do this year in the postseason with arguably one of the most talented teams he's been on his whole career and in a weaker Leastern Conference?
He didn't play bad. But lets not forget that hes getting up in age.


Based on your criteria then Scottie Pippen is a franchise player, no? And one that is far superior to Gasol based on how well he did sans Jordan (winning 55 games without MJ on the Bulls, being one 4th quarter meltdown from leading the Blazers to a ring without MJ)
I absolutely feel Pippen is a franchise player. Doesn't infringe on anything Jordan did.

[DMAVS41]

It's Al Horford / Joe Johnson on the Hawks all over again. When you have a 8 to 9 deep team capable of playing defense and scoring double figures any given night, you have a recipe for the playoffs. It's not going to get you very far, though or mass playoff wins.

The 04 Grizzlies with Kirilenko and Redd are way better than any Hawks team with JJ or Horford though.

Would they win? Probably not, but it also wouldn't be shocking if they did.

I really think you are undervaluing not only Gasol here, but the kind of chemistry those teams had. You add two very good players to that team and they would have been a scary team.

[97 bulls]

You are completely misrepresenting what I said.

He said Gasol was a franchise player. I said it was ridiculous to call him anywhere :biggums: close to it because that would be placing him in the same tier as Duncan, Yao, Garnett - players that impact the game on both ends of the floor, and sell tickets while they are at it.]
I dont see why calling him.a franchise player automatically puts him on that level. Dwight Howard is or was a franchise player. And no one would lump him in with Greats like Olajuwan, Shaq, Chamberlain, etc.


Teams have to come with up with game plans to stop these aforementioned players and make adjustments on every sequence down the floor. They did nothing of that sort to Gasol, even in his best seasons with the Grizzles. He didn't demand doubles and they would defend him upfront. Similarly, he didn't have any semblance of an impact on the defensive end.
Hogwash. If what you're saying is true, then why did Kobe demand a trade which forced the Lakers to make the trade for Gasol in the first place?


It's true Gasol had three winning seasons in Memphis, but they were a team built for the regular season. Sometimes, coaching and good role players can get you 50 wins.

True. But they just weren't good enough. Thats it. That's what you continue to fail to realize.


Similarly, Jordan is a tier above Pippen in terms of impact.
So whats the point????? In order to be a franchise player, you mist be as good as Jordan????? Come on.

[97 bulls]

The 04 Grizzlies with Kirilenko and Redd are way better than any Hawks team with JJ or Horford though.

Would they win? Probably not, but it also wouldn't be shocking if they did.

I really think you are undervaluing not only Gasol here, but the kind of chemistry those teams had. You add two very good players to that team and they would have been a scary team.
Exactly. James Posey was probably Gasol second best player. On that Heat team that won in 06, he was their 5th or 6th best player. After Wade, Shaq, Mourning, Payton, and Haslem.

[Braincells]

The 04 Grizzlies with Kirilenko and Redd are way better than any Hawks team with JJ or Horford though.

Would they win? Probably not, but it also wouldn't be shocking if they did.

I really think you are undervaluing not only Gasol here, but the kind of chemistry those teams had. You add two very good players to that team and they would have been a scary team.


The 04 Grizzlies with Kirilenko and Redd are way better than any Hawks team with JJ or Horford though.

Would they win? Probably not, but it also wouldn't be shocking if they did.

I really think you are undervaluing not only Gasol here, but the kind of chemistry those teams had. You add two very good players to that team and they would have been a scary team.

1) It would be predicated entirely on the system the Grizzles run with Kirilenko and Redd. Hubie Brown and Fratello played to the strengths of the team and utilized Posey and Battier as defensive stoppers and three point shooters. Kirilenko's impact would be very similar to theirs. Posey wasn't a push over in his prime either. He had the length to keep up with just about any "franchise" guard. He did Kobe pretty well in the 08 finals, but it was also more of a team effort.

2) Gasol thrived in the Lakers' system (refer to his FG%) because he had someone who could consistently create opportunities for him and feed him the ball down low. He never had the same opportunities in Memphis. It's not like Kobe just shot jacked the Lakers all those seasons - he learned a few things from playing with Shaq. There's no one else who could have fed Gasol the ball better in the post than Kobe. This is only by virtue of Kobe's prior experience with Shaq.

3) Kirilenko played with Boozer (...a guy who put up Gasol numbers in his prime - I reckon' some guy here would call him a franchise player) and never won 60 games.

[Braincells]

I dont see why calling him.a franchise player automatically puts him on that level. Dwight Howard is or was a franchise player. And no one would lump him in with Greats like Olajuwan, Shaq, Chamberlain, etc.


Hogwash. If what you're saying is true, then why did Kobe demand a trade which forced the Lakers to make the trade for Gasol in the first place?


True. But they just weren't good enough. Thats it. That's what you continue to fail to realize.


So whats the point????? In order to be a franchise player, you mist be as good as Jordan????? Come on.

1) Dwight Howard made the finals with Rashard Lewis as the second best player. He was a tier above Gasol in terms of his impact. His presence in the low post was probably the sole reason they made the finals in 08-09. What does that tell you about his defensive impact? Teams had to consistently plan for how they would play him on the defensive end, as bad as his offense seemed at times.

Gasol never demanded that kind of attention offensively or defensively... in any stretch of his career. He wasn't seeing doubles in Memphis, nor did they have any special game plan to stop him. Teams would play him upfront and not worry about sending another defender to him.

2) Kobe demanded a trade because rookie Jordan Farmer usurped Smush as their best point guard in the 06-07 season. It's very simple actually.

[DMAVS41]

1) It would be predicated entirely on the system the Grizzles run with Kirilenko and Redd. Hubie Brown and Fratello played to the strengths of the team and utilized Posey and Battier as defensive stoppers and three point shooters. Kirilenko's impact would be very similar to theirs. Posey wasn't a push over in his prime either. He had the length to keep up with just about any "franchise" guard. He did Kobe pretty well in the 08 finals, but it was also more of a team effort.

2) Gasol thrived in the Lakers' system (refer to his FG%) because he had someone who could consistently create opportunities for him and feed him the ball down low. He never had the same opportunities in Memphis. It's not like Kobe just shot jacked the Lakers all those seasons - he learned a few things from playing with Shaq. There's no one else who could have fed Gasol the ball better in the post than Kobe. This is only by virtue of Kobe's prior experience with Shaq.

3) Kirilenko played with Boozer (...a guy who put up Gasol numbers in his prime - I reckon' some guy here would call him a franchise player) and never won 60 games.

I honestly don't think it matters much. You add those two guys to that roster and it's on par with just about any roster in the league.

Gasol is who he is. He's going to give you roughly 19/8/3 on solid efficiency and play under-rated defense at the rim. He's capable of doing many things on the court and he plays better the more help he has.

You give him two more really good players on that 04 team and they are winning a ton of games and contending.

Gasol was and is definitely a better player than Boozer...

[branslowski]

Bryant actually won playoff games without Gasol, Gasol never won sh*t.

BTW, how did Gasol do in 2013 in the playoffs after Kobe went down with the Achilles? If he was as good as you say he was I think he should've been able to get at least ONE win with Dwight Howard as his 2nd best player.

How did Gasol do in 2014 when Kobe went down for the whole season?

How did Gasol do this year in the postseason with arguably one of the most talented teams he's been on his whole career and in a weaker Leastern Conference?

Based on your criteria then Scottie Pippen is a franchise player, no? And one that is far superior to Gasol based on how well he did sans Jordan (winning 55 games without MJ on the Bulls, being one 4th quarter meltdown from leading the Blazers to a ring without MJ)

Thread/:applause:

[97 bulls]

1) Dwight Howard made the finals with Rashard Lewis as the second best player. He was a tier above Gasol in terms of his impact. His presence in the low post was probably the sole reason they made the finals in 08-09. What does that tell you about his defensive impact? Teams had to consistently plan for how they would play him on the defensive end, as bad as his offense seemed at times.

Gasol never demanded that kind of attention offensively or defensively... in any stretch of his career. He wasn't seeing doubles in Memphis, nor did they have any special game plan to stop him. Teams would play him upfront and not worry about sending another defender to him.
Come on bro. Think rational. I didn't mention Howard in an effort to show how good Gasol was. YOUR argument is that calling Gasol a franchise player lumps him in with alltime greats like Duncan. Meaning hes as good as Duncan I assume. So are you saying that Dwight Howard (A franchise player at least at some point in his career) is as good as Wilt Chamberlain simply because he was also labeled a franchise player? Cuz that's your argument.


2) Kobe demanded a trade because rookie Jordan Farmer usurped Smush as their best point guard in the 06-07 season. It's very simple actually.
Lol. What???????? Are you really saying that Bryant only wanted to leave simply because of who the PG was between Jordan Farmar and Smush Parker??????

Thats couldn't be further from the truth. Fact is Bryant and Parker hated each other. Even to thus day. Bryant went on the Stephen A Smith radio show and plainly stated that he felt the Lakers weren't serious about putting together a contender. That means actually going out and getting players to play with.

[DonDadda59]

Bryant actually won playoff games without Gasol, Gasol never won sh*t.

How did I miss this? :lol

Bruh, did Gasol not just lead another team to 50 wins and made it out of the first round? :confusedshrug:


BTW, how did Gasol do in 2013 in the playoffs after Kobe went down with the Achilles? If he was as good as you say he was I think he should've been able to get at least ONE win with Dwight Howard as his 2nd best player.

How did Gasol do in 2014 when Kobe went down for the whole season?

Look at what Gasol did with the Bulls this year with no Bean on his team. Then look at Bean and the Lakers post Pau. Are you really making this comparison? :wtf:


How did Gasol do this year in the postseason with arguably one of the most talented teams he's been on his whole career and in a weaker Leastern Conference?

Got past the first round. Bean never did that without Shaq or Pau.


Based on your criteria then Scottie Pippen is a franchise player, no?

Pip was definitely a franchise caliber player in his prime. He proved that in '94.


Come on bro. Think rational. I didn't mention Howard in an effort to show how good Gasol was. YOUR argument is that calling Gasol a franchise player lumps him in with alltime greats like Duncan. Meaning hes as good as Duncan I assume. So are you saying that Dwight Howard (A franchise player at least at some point in his career) is as good as Wilt Chamberlain simply because he was also labeled a franchise player? Cuz that's your argument.

Yeah these idiots seem to think that being a franchise player automatically means you are an all time great. :facepalm

Gasol has proven throughout his career that him being the first option on a team can result in 50 wins, a playoff berth, etc. He's a 20/10/4/2 threat every game and just led the league in double-doubles at 34 and made an all NBA team (only non Cavs player in the East).

[ralph_i_el]

I don't understand your question. In your opinion, Gasol Is a top 10 big man of all time and Kobe only got rings two more rings because of Gasol.

Explain Gasol's career before Kobe.:rolleyes:

1) go to basketball reference
2) look at Grizzlies rosters from Pau years
3) ????
4) profit!!!


his teams were horseshit. Battier was a nice player, and he had a few years of young Mike Miller. I don't think he ever played with any players who had ever averaged 20ppg even one time.

[jzek]

And I thought LeBron has no help :wtf:

[Braincells]

I honestly don't think it matters much. You add those two guys to that roster and it's on par with just about any roster in the league.

Gasol is who he is. He's going to give you roughly 19/8/3 on solid efficiency and play under-rated defense at the rim. He's capable of doing many things on the court and he plays better the more help he has.

You give him two more really good players on that 04 team and they are winning a ton of games and contending.

Gasol was and is definitely a better player than Boozer...

1) But then you lose the other double digit scoring and low post threats that Memphis had in their best seasons. Does adding Kirilenko really offset what Battier/Posey brought to the table every night? Plus the Wright/Swift combo was giving the front court a solid 20/11 each game. It's not like Gasol played with Brian Cook or Luke Walton. They never had to worry about who would defend the low post or PG position, because Battier or Posey would create defensive issues. This was a legitimate problem for the Lakers with Smush Parker or Luke Walton starting.

I would argue the same thing for Redd since he was a fairly one dimensional player in his prime. Would be that much better than Miller/Battier combo?

The reality is that everyone bought into a system in those two seasons and it paid off. The roster was 8-9 deep and no one really had to shoulder the load on any given night the same way Kobe did with the Lakers. It got them to the playoffs... but didn't translate to any wins. Gasol never reached the elite level that he did with the Lakers. Kobe reached that elite level far before he teamed up with Gasol. He would win ballgames by himself.

The whole is always greater than the sum of the parts. It's impossible to say that they would be a 60 win with Redd/Kirilenko because it changes the dynamics of the whole team.

[Doranku]

This dude just said PAU GASOL led this year's Bulls to the 2nd round. Holy shit. :oldlol:

I remember reading a thread earlier this year where Bulls fans were saying Pau has a negative impact on their team.

But now he's the leader of their team. :oldlol: Okay.

[Braincells]

Come on bro. Think rational. I didn't mention Howard in an effort to show how good Gasol was. YOUR argument is that calling Gasol a franchise player lumps him in with alltime greats like Duncan. Meaning hes as good as Duncan I assume. So are you saying that Dwight Howard (A franchise player at least at some point in his career) is as good as Wilt Chamberlain simply because he was also labeled a franchise player? Cuz that's your argument.


Lol. What???????? Are you really saying that Bryant only wanted to leave simply because of who the PG was between Jordan Farmar and Smush Parker??????

Thats couldn't be further from the truth. Fact is Bryant and Parker hated each other. Even to thus day. Bryant went on the Stephen A Smith radio show and plainly stated that he felt the Lakers weren't serious about putting together a contender. That means actually going out and getting players to play with.

1) I'm measuring in terms of impact and franchise carrying ability. If we are clumping players, Howard's 08-09 season was pretty darn close to what Duncan did in some of best his seasons with the Spurs, which is why he was mentioned. I would definitely lump him in that same category for a few of his seasons, though his play has slacked off as of late. He was three wins away from a championship with Rashard Lewis as the second scoring option. That's the link Howard has with Duncan in terms of franchise carrying ability. Gasol never reached that same stratosphere in any of his seasons.

2) I mentioned a rookie Farmar starting over Smush in the 06-07 playoffs to illuminate exactly why Kobe wanted to leave. The instability, lack of depth and consistency at every position was the prime source of his frustration with management. Kobe had beef with Parker, but Parker played exceptionally well in the 05-06 season. Besides, players aren't supposed to be friends off the court. They are expected to play well and win together, like Kobe and Shaq from 2000-2002.

[Braincells]

This dude just said PAU GASOL led this year's Bulls to the 2nd round. Holy shit. :oldlol:

I remember reading a thread earlier this year where Bulls fans were saying Pau has a negative impact on their team.

But now he's the leader of their team. :oldlol: Okay.

There was an infamous (http://www.blogabull.com/2015/1/31/7956711/signing-pau-gasol-was-a-mistake) blog post highlighting some of the frustrations Bulls' fans had with Gasol in terms of impact (worse than Boozer):

Pau Gasol hasn't solved any issues for the Bulls and he has created new ones. The defense has cratered, relatively speaking, largely due to his presence on the floor for 35 minutes a night. The offense is better, but that is only partly related to Pau's presence, as Derrick Rose being back helps, even with his inefficient scoring, and Jimmy Butler played the first part of this season like a rough facsimile of James Harden on offense. There's also the counterfactual of how good the Bulls offense could be if Nikola Mirotic were spacing the floor instead of Pau clogging things up with mediocrely efficient postups.

Sums up his stint in Memphis and tail end years in LA.

[Ne 1]

Pau is a lower tier franchise player like a Chris Bosh/Jermaine O'Neal or a Brad Daugherty level All-Star big man, but he's not a superstar though or a player you're going to win a championship with as your #1 guy. He was pretty clearly best suited and more comfortable as a #2 guy.

[sd3035]

No excuses, Kobe won two titles with less than Lebald