Are Cavs better without Kyrie & Love?

[JZ600]

How much of a difference would they really have made in the playoffs?
Assuming they are both 100%
Discuss

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm

[Andrei89]

With Kyrie and Love healthy, Cavs take this in 5.

[imdaman99]

Only defensively. They have been able to uglify the games and keep the scores somewhat low to keep themselves in the games because of it. But no, I don't think they are better. You shouldn't either unless you are a Lebron stan that loves him putting up crazy statlines.

[Blue&Orange]

defensively yes, overall no, not even close.

Can't say the same thing about Love. How bad would the cavs be if instead of Thomson rebounding Lebron misses, Love was standing behind the 3pt line?

[JZ600]

Overall they are better no doubt.
But with kyrie love in I see steph going off more and who knows what kind of chain reaction that can cause

[Nuff Said]

defensively yes, overall no, not even close.

Can't say the same thing about Love. How bad would the cavs be if instead of Thomson rebounding Lebron misses, Love was standing behind the 3pt line?
What if he would pass to Love instead of taking 30 shots, inevitably wearing himself down?

[Thorn]

Maybe I'm completely delusional on this, but I think it's possible that without those two they match up better vs Golden State. Neither of them are good defenders, and it's clear that their replacements in Delly/TT have been putting in work defensively. I know that just having them would lighten the offensive load on Lebron, but instead of these low scoring games so far, Kyrie and Love would kind of push the pace more to what Golden State wants.

Of course, this kind of lineup would never work in the RS, because Lebron would break down in like 20 games since he's carrying an enormous load on offense. But just for this particular 7 game series against this particular team? I don't think it's out of the question that having Delly/TT playing the majority of minutes at PG/PF makes them better compared to having Kyrie/Love in there.

That said, it'd still be better to have Kyrie/Love healthy and able to play if needed instead of not having the option to play them at all.

[Quickening]

People don't seem to take into consideration how much it hurts Cavs depth as much as just their first 5, arguing that delly is playing just as well as Kyrie etc... The reason Cavs are getting hammered in the 4th is because they can barely muster a decent starting 5 therefore everyone has to play big minutes, or the trash second team comes on... Therefore fatigue hits. There's a reason having lots of quality players tends to beat top heavy teams in a series

[keep-itreal]

I'm pretty sure with Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving healthy, Cavs would beat the Warriors pretty easily.

Yeah Kevin Love sucks on defense and rebounding, but he has height advantage over Draymond Green, so he's not going to murdered on rebound or anything.

Kyrie Irving would go at Stephen Curry and wear him out just like he did in game 1.

Cavs in 5 if Big 3 was there

[Pointguard]

Against GS this year, yes, without question. As a young team they without identity, with Kyrie they would have embraced more of an offensive game because they would have two top 10 scorers. I believe Atlanta would have beat them as well. Without Kyrie they embraced a defensive minded team which is the way to beat GS and Atlanta. A unit centered around one piece is easier to corral and pick up the energy with. Of course team dept is what's killing them now.

Next year they will have more of an identity and Kyrie will fit in better. Only concern would be good teams have effective PG's and Kyrie is definitely a fall off from Delly. But Kyrie is one of the best offensively.

[97 bulls]

Maybe I'm completely delusional on this, but I think it's possible that without those two they match up better vs Golden State. Neither of them are good defenders, and it's clear that their replacements in Delly/TT have been putting in work defensively. I know that just having them would lighten the offensive load on Lebron, but instead of these low scoring games so far, Kyrie and Love would kind of push the pace more to what Golden State wants.

Of course, this kind of lineup would never work in the RS, because Lebron would break down in like 20 games since he's carrying an enormous load on offense. But just for this particular 7 game series against this particular team? I don't think it's out of the question that having Delly/TT playing the majority of minutes at PG/PF makes them better compared to having Kyrie/Love in there.

That said, it'd still be better to have Kyrie/Love healthy and able to play if needed instead of not having the option to play them at all.
Couldn't have said it better myself

[J Shuttlesworth]

lol @ people delusional enough to think they are better. Don't forget that the Cavs had a better record than the Warriors in the latter half of the season and went 15-1 against the West.

Kyrie did as good of a job defensively in game 1 as Delly did in games 3 and 4. Plus it would force Kyrie to actually have to work on the defensive end since he'd be covering Kyrie instead of Delly. Love provides some much needed spacing and scoring, and both of these guys take the giant burden off LeBron that caused him to become gassed in game 4 after playing 47 mpg.

I mean it's not very difficult to understand. What they lose in defense, they more than make up for with scoring and depth. They'd have an actual 9 man rotation. LeBron is unable to sit at all in these games because the second he does, there is nobody able to create their own shot. You're telling me that Kyrie/Love wouldn't help that?

[tpols]

lol @ people delusional enough to think they are better. Don't forget that the Cavs had a better record than the Warriors in the latter half of the season and went 15-1 against the West.

Kyrie did as good of a job defensively in game 1 as Delly did in games 3 and 4. Plus it would force Kyrie to actually have to work on the defensive end since he'd be covering Kyrie instead of Delly. Love provides some much needed spacing and scoring, and both of these guys take the giant burden off LeBron that caused him to become gassed in game 4 after playing 47 mpg.

I mean it's not very difficult to understand. What they lose in defense, they more than make up for with scoring and depth. They'd have an actual 9 man rotation. LeBron is unable to sit at all in these games because the second he does, there is nobody able to create their own shot. You're telling me that Kyrie/Love wouldn't help that?

There's a whole lot of delusional people then... just look at this page and its coming from completely different fanbases.

[3ball]

They were better when Lebron's strategy of controlling pace by shooting 36 times per game hadn't been solved.

But now that it has (he's getting doubled), his teammates need to make plays - but most of his teammates are just play-finishers, not play-MAKERS like Kyrie...

When Lebron is doubled and gives the ball up, Cavs need play-MAKERS, which is where Kyrie's value comes in.

[J Shuttlesworth]

There's a whole lot of delusional people then... .
Of course. This is ISH

The Cavs dont' run into the "gassed" wall in game 4 if they have 2 extra serviceable players who happen to be all stars.

[ArbitraryWater]

Only on ISH..... :lol

I doubt any of you honestly believe it though, pathetic attempts with agenda in mind..... how could one be reasonable about anything Bron related, ever... all about downplaying.

[iamgine]

They are not better. Look, Delly and Thompson has been playing with so much effort, efforts worthy of the finals and that's how Cavs have managed so far. Now, we haven't seen a healthy Kyrie and Love had the opportunity to show their NBA finals self yet. Don't forget Kevin Love was a rebounding monster, much better than Tristan Thompson and Kyrie can actually play like Delly on the defensive end AND be an offensive juggernaut.

So it's wrong to say they're better with Delly and Thompson. A full all-out effort, NBA finals version of Kyrie and Love would definitely be better.

[plowking]

defensively yes, overall no, not even close.

Can't say the same thing about Love. How bad would the cavs be if instead of Thomson rebounding Lebron misses, Love was standing behind the 3pt line?

Why not play them at the same time? Especially with the Warriors not fielding anyone over 6'7 in the starting line up...

[MavsSuperFan]

Kyrie's loss hurts them because he is much better than delly when healthy.
Personally think Thompson is a better fit on the cavs than love, there are a lot of teams i think love would be better for, but for the cavs as currently constructed Thompson's defense, rebounding and toughness are more valuable than the scoring love provides.

[dreamwarrior]

They're less lazy out there. Having Delly on the floor forces other guys to hustle like him.

[GOBB]

No they are not. Why even ask this question? It's beyond stupid. Again, here is what the Cavs core is without them...

Delly
Jr Smith
Iman Shumpert
Mozgoc
Thompson
James Jones
Mike Miller
Perkins
Haywood
J.Harris

Idiots.

[DMAVS41]

Why not play them at the same time? Especially with the Warriors not fielding anyone over 6'7 in the starting line up...

They would have....

Not sure why people are acting like Mozgov and Thompson were never play.

[DMAVS41]

No they are not. Why even ask this question? It's beyond stupid. Again, here is what the Cavs core is without them...

Delly
Jr Smith
Iman Shumpert
Mozgoc
Thompson
James Jones
Mike Miller
Perkins
Haywood
J.Harris

Idiots.

It's beyond pathetic.

I never thought the hating of a player would go to the extremes of many people, not just a few, claiming that this Cavs team is better without 3 of it's 7 best players....2 of them being top 20 type players in the league or better. It's ****ing absurd.

I've never seen anything like this before.

[RedBlackAttack]

:facepalm

Someone shoot me in the face plox.

[J Shuttlesworth]

It's beyond pathetic.

I never thought the hating of a player would go to the extremes of many people, not just a few, claiming that this Cavs team is better without 3 of it's 7 best players....2 of them being top 20 type players in the league or better. It's ****ing absurd.

I've never seen anything like this before.
You realize why, right?

It's really just haters trying to blame this series on LeBron if the Cavs lose so they can say "LeBron's cast was good enough"

They're also trying to downplay the competition, the Warriors, which is why you're seeing arguments like the 2010 Celtics would destroy them... Look at which fanbase is making these two arguments and it should all make sense

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm

Someone shoot me in the face plox.

I know....this is making me want to break shit. Like....usually this is all just so much fun to go back and forth and ruffle people up with what we all say. We all do it to some extent and bend reality to fit our narratives at times...

But this...I've never seen anything like it. And the worst thing is...I know some of these people actually believe.

They actually believe this Cavs team is better off missing 3 of it's 7 best players.

[DMAVS41]

You realize why, right?

It's really just haters trying to blame this series on LeBron if the Cavs lose so they can say "LeBron's cast was good enough"

They're also trying to downplay the competition, the Warriors, which is why you're seeing arguments like the 2010 Celtics would destroy them... Look at which fanbase is making these two arguments and it should all make sense

Oh I know...I've been battling with them...trying to speak logically and hope it wins people over.

[RedBlackAttack]

You realize why, right?

It's really just haters trying to blame this series on LeBron if the Cavs lose so they can say "LeBron's cast was good enough"

They're also trying to downplay the competition, the Warriors, which is why you're seeing arguments like the 2010 Celtics would destroy them... Look at which fanbase is making these two arguments and it should all make sense
Trolling is the only thing that makes any sense. Like I posted in the other thread, if you believe that simply subtracting Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love and Anderson Varejao from a team makes it better, you're either trolling or stupid. There is no other explanation.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Oh I know...I've been battling with them...trying to speak logically and hope it wins people over.
:lol on ISH? really?

[DMAVS41]

Trolling is the only thing that makes any sense. Like I posted in the other thread, if you believe that simply subtracting Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love and Anderson Varejao from a team makes it better, you're either trolling or stupid. There is no other explanation.

But I really don't think they are trolling. Some? Sure, but it sure seems like a lot of people actually think this is true.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Trolling is the only thing that makes any sense. Like I posted in the other thread, if you believe that simply subtracting Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love and Anderson Varejao from a team makes it better, you're either trolling or stupid. There is no other explanation.
The thing is... I'm not even really sure if it's trolling. I think it's mental gymnastics they do to prop up the player they love, and undercut the players they hate.

[Milbuck]

lol

[RedBlackAttack]

So, what you're telling me is that these people are so obsessed with LeBron that they need a way to explain how this series is 2-2 despite the Cavs being completely decimated, so they've contrived this (completely outrageous and borderline insulting) opinion?

There was a time where I really did not like LeBron James and I actively rooted against him, but holy sh!t... blindly believing this unreasonable nonsense just to rationalize your own dislike of a player -- that's a level of hate I can't fathom.

[DMAVS41]

Against GS this year, yes, without question. As a young team they without identity, with Kyrie they would have embraced more of an offensive game because they would have two top 10 scorers. I believe Atlanta would have beat them as well. Without Kyrie they embraced a defensive minded team which is the way to beat GS and Atlanta. A unit centered around one piece is easier to corral and pick up the energy with. Of course team dept is what's killing them now.

Next year they will have more of an identity and Kyrie will fit in better. Only concern would be good teams have effective PG's and Kyrie is definitely a fall off from Delly. But Kyrie is one of the best offensively.

This doesn't seem like trolling.

Granted, this post is from a notoriously stupid poster that rarely makes sense, but this doesn't read like trolling.

It reads like an idiot saying that the Cavs would go from sweeping the Hawks to losing to them if they got their team healthy. :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

So, what you're telling me is that these people are so obsessed with LeBron that they need a way to explain how this series is 2-2 despite the Cavs being completely decimated, so they've contrived this (completely outrageous and borderline insulting) opinion?

There was a time where I really did not like LeBron James and I actively rooted against him, but holy sh!t... blindly believing this unreasonable nonsense just to rationalize your own dislike of a player -- that's a level of hate I can't fathom.

Exactly. I've never seen anything like it.

Especially when we saw just how good Kyrie looked in game 1 and what he was able to do at maybe like 80%.

[GOBB]

It's beyond pathetic.

I never thought the hating of a player would go to the extremes of many people, not just a few, claiming that this Cavs team is better without 3 of it's 7 best players....2 of them being top 20 type players in the league or better. It's ****ing absurd.

I've never seen anything like this before.

Agreed. Wish i could delete this thread. :oldlol:

[catch24]

In the long-haul? Nah. The Cavs would've steam-rolled Chicago with a healthy cast.

I think they matchup well with Golden State as is though. Or at least as was prior to Game 4. If the Cavs somehow stay competitive and/or steal another game, it'll reaffirm my opinion that Cleveland matches up better with this Golden state team playing with THIS personnel.

[RedBlackAttack]

In the long-haul? Nah. The Cavs would have steam-rolled Chicago with a healthy cast.

I think they matchup well with Golden State as is though. Or at least as was prior to Game 4. If the Cavs somehow stay competitive and/or steal another game, it'll reafirm my opinion that Cleveland definitely matches up better with this Golden state team playing with this personnel.
In any haul. I mean, wtf? :oldlol:

You realize that adding two Olympians and another very useful big does not mean deducting anything from the current roster, right? It just means that Matthew f#cking Dellavedova -- who you probably had never heard of until a month ago -- would not be playing 40 minutes a night. And Tristan Thompson wouldn't be forced to play 46 minutes, which he actually did last game. :oldlol:

Also, LeBron might actually get to rest for more than two minutes a game with Love/Kyrie/Varejao available, so as not to, you know, completely run him into the ground the first three games.

There is no haul in which this is better. None. It is haul-less.

[Braincells]

So just because someone has a different opinion than you it's trolling?

The case could have been made after the first 3 games because TT and Delly did a good job of neutralizing the GS offense. They made Curry look like a glorified role player.

A lot of credit goes to Kerr for realizing Blatt's gameplan and making adjustments.

Ultimately the better team wins in a 7 game series, so Irving and Love definitely would have helped Cleveland, but let's not pretend it isn't about defense and match ups. Kyrie wouldn't negate Curry the same way Delly did.

[DMAVS41]

In the long-haul? Nah. The Cavs would've steam-rolled Chicago with a healthy cast.

I think they matchup well with Golden State as is though. Or at least as was prior to Game 4. If the Cavs somehow stay competitive and/or steal another game, it'll reaffirm my opinion that Cleveland matches up better with this Golden state team playing with THIS personnel.

See?

He's really not trolling.

People actually think playing a team that can't score at all outside of 1 player....with a ****ing 7 man rotation that heavily relies on Delly and james jones....is better than a team with Love/Kyrie/Andy

I'm floored.

You give the Cavs their full lineup and the Warriors play like they have so far in this series and the Cavs are at worst up 3-1 right now with a sweep very possible.

[RedBlackAttack]

So just because someone has a different opinion than you it's trolling?

In this case, yes. Or, like I said, they could also just be really stupid. I hadn't seriously considered the LeBron hate thing. Guess I might have to include that in the list, although this seems pretty extreme, even by player hater standards.

I didn't read the rest of your post btw.

[Ne 1]

Overall, no. Obviously they're much better defensively, but the Cavs could really use his ball-handling and scoring, and LeBron could actually have a rest for longer than 2-3 minutes the entire game.

[ArbitraryWater]

See?

He's really not trolling.

People actually think playing a team that can't score at all outside of 1 player....with a ****ing 7 man rotation that heavily relies on Delly and james jones....is better than a team with Love/Kyrie/Andy

I'm floored.

You give the Cavs their full lineup and the Warriors play like they have so far in this series and the Cavs are at worst up 3-1 right now with a sweep very possible.

The delusions coming with liking Kobe.. :lol

[catch24]

In any haul. I mean, wtf? :oldlol:

You realize that adding two Olympians and another very useful big does not mean deducting anything from the current roster, right? It just means that Matthew f#cking Dellavedova -- who you probably had never heard of until a month ago -- would not be playing 40 minutes a night. And Tristan Thompson wouldn't be forced to play 46 minutes, which he actually did last game. :oldlol:

There is no haul in which this is better. None. It is haul-less.

Love and Irving would be getting most of those minutes, and nobody, as you said, would have ever spoken about Dellavedova to begin with. TT wouldn't have anywhere near the same impact he does now via rebounds. Both guys have been absolutely key to the Cavs' success in these finals so far - wouldn't you agree?

From what I've seen this year, I'd still take this Warriors offense over the Cavs' with Love and Irving - because that's what this series would have become. An offensive shoot-out.

[DMAVS41]

So just because someone has a different opinion than you it's trolling?

The case could have been made after the first 3 games because TT and Delly did a good job of neutralizing the GS offense. They made Curry look like a glorified role player.

A lot of credit goes to Kerr for realizing Blatt's gameplan and making adjustments.

Ultimately the better team wins in a 7 game series, so Irving and Love definitely would have helped Cleveland, but let's not pretend it isn't about defense and match ups. Kyrie wouldn't negate Curry the same way Delly did.

The Warriors just missed wide open shot after wide open shot in game 2 though. I mean...at some point we have to just speak honestly about what happened.

Delly did and admirable job, but he hasn't been better overall in any game than Kyrie was in game 1 before he got hurt.

The Cavs can still do all the same shit...they'd just make the Warriors pay even more for missing wide open shots.

What's gonna happen with Love out there? Barnes and Green are going to get wide open shots? Yep...and guess what...that is already what happened....and they missed them.

[catch24]

So just because someone has a different opinion than you it's trolling?

The case could have been made after the first 3 games because TT and Delly did a good job of neutralizing the GS offense. They made Curry look like a glorified role player.

A lot of credit goes to Kerr for realizing Blatt's gameplan and making adjustments.

Ultimately the better team wins in a 7 game series, so Irving and Love definitely would have helped Cleveland, but let's not pretend it isn't about defense and match ups. Kyrie wouldn't negate Curry the same way Delly did.

This. I just don't see how it's trolling or hating. The game is about matchups.

:confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

Love and Irving would be getting most of those minutes, and nobody, as you said, would have ever spoken about Dellavedova to begin with. TT wouldn't have anywhere near the same impact he does now via rebounds. Both guys have been absolutely key to the Cavs' success in these finals so far - wouldn't you agree?

From what I've seen this year, I'd still take this Warriors offense over the Cavs' with Love and Irving - because that's what this serious would have become. An offensive shoot-out.

No it wouldn't have. My god...Blatt and Lebron know what the **** they are doing.

They aren't going to run and gun against the Warriors if it's not working. The Cavs would still be killing them on the glass and Kyrie/Love would make the Warriors work so much harder on defense.

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. Curry/Green/Barnes just happen to miss great shots for like 6.5 straight qtrs and everyone here freaks out and it's:

1. The Warriors suck and aren't good

2. The Cavs are better without 3 of their 7 best players


It's a big no to both of those. Give the Cavs credit, but the Warriors also just missed shots they almost always make.

[RedBlackAttack]

No it wouldn't have. My god...Blatt and Lebron know what the **** they are doing.

They aren't going to run and gun against the Warriors if it's not working. The Cavs would still be killing them on the glass and Kyrie/Love would make the Warriors work so much harder on defense.

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. Curry/Green/Barnes just happen to miss great shots for like 6.5 straight qtrs and everyone here freaks out and it's:

1. The Warriors suck and aren't good

2. The Cavs are better without 3 of their 7 best players


It's a big no to both of those. Give the Cavs credit, but the Warriors also just missed shots they almost always make.
Apparently David Blatt becomes mentally handicapped when given a full roster.

[DMAVS41]

Apparently David Blatt becomes mentally handicapped when given a full roster.

Of course he does.

And Love turns into a guy that can't help on the boards.

And Kyrie...despite playing great in game 1...isn't as good as Delly. A Dell that is putting up 10/3/3 on 43% TS mind you.

And having an extra big to throw at them to foul Bogut or just to change things up would hurt them as well.

And of course the big one...Lebron getting to rest for more than 5 minutes a game is a bad thing as well.

[RedBlackAttack]

Love and Irving would be getting most of those minutes, and nobody, as you said, would have ever spoken about Dellavedova to begin with. TT wouldn't have anywhere near the same impact he does now via rebounds. Both guys have been absolutely key to the Cavs' success in these finals so far - wouldn't you agree?

From what I've seen this year, I'd still take this Warriors offense over the Cavs' with Love and Irving - because that's what this series would have become. An offensive shoot-out.
No.

Kyrie loves to play at a slow pace. He was second in the league in efficiency out of isolation behind only James Harden. He is actually great at finding the weak spots in a defense when the game slows down. He is very good in transition, but he is not the kind of guy who is just going to blindly push the pace like Westbrook.

Love can do a little bit of everything.

Delly and Kyrie play a lot together. They have all season... as do Love and Tristan. They've all been integral to the Cavs' turnaround this season.

By losing Irving and Love (not even mentioning Varejao), the Cavs have become completely one-dimensional, they have no depth, they have no versatility, and they have almost no offensive talent outside of LeBron. If you're going to tell me that's a recipe for success, I'm going to call some things into question.

It makes no sense, unless you think Love and Kyrie and Varejao being active would mean Delly, Tristan and Mozgov not playing... which the Cavs have proven all year is NOT the case. Blatt put together some really interesting lineups all season.

I'm at a complete loss at the reasoning, here.

[GOBB]

I really can't believe what I'm reading. Am I in the Twilight Zone? RBA, DMAVs please pinch me so I know these posts are real.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Of course he does.

And Love turns into a guy that can't help on the boards.

And Kyrie...despite playing great in game 1...isn't as good as Delly. A Dell that is putting up 10/3/3 on 43% TS mind you.

And having an extra big to throw at them to foul Bogut or just to change things up would hurt them as well.

And of course the big one...Lebron getting to rest for more than 5 minutes a game is a bad thing as well.
Don't forge that Love will eliminate TT's ability to get offensive boards since they are legally restricted to play on the floor together

[RedBlackAttack]

I really can't believe what I'm reading. Am I in the Twilight Zone? RBA, DMAVs please pinch me so I know these posts are real.

https://33.media.tumblr.com/95faab535b42a76b1ff54501bbf51654/tumblr_mudyxv0kD71sh3zhpo3_r1_500.gif

[catch24]

Blatt knows what he's doing, don't think I've suggested otherwise. All I am saying, though, is that you gain offense, and lose some defense. Rotations are naturally cut short in the playoffs, always have been (again this is assuming health is no longer relevant).

You don't lose/gain, gain/lose all-together (i.e. Love is playing therefor TT can't), but the differences would favor the Warriors more-so IMO.

You can take that as "trolling" if it makes you feel better, but hey, it is what it is.

[J Shuttlesworth]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=379489

More sound logic :applause:

[RidonKs]

But I really don't think they are trolling. Some? Sure, but it sure seems like a lot of people actually think this is true.
they've been convinced by the trolls. not dissimilar to watching fox news. it's all an internally consistent narrative. that it's batshit insane would require observation and consideration most basketball fans just don't care enough about to contribute. which in a sense is perfectly legit. soap opera is for enjoying the ride, not breaking down the journey.

[Pointguard]

This doesn't seem like trolling.

Granted, this post is from a notoriously stupid poster that rarely makes sense, but this doesn't read like trolling.

It reads like an idiot saying that the Cavs would go from sweeping the Hawks to losing to them if they got their team healthy. :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
:lol

Here comes idiot hour at the Apollo with its star clown. If you haven't learned that teams with the most talent don't always win. Young teams rarely win. Inexperienced teams even less. Team ball wins games.

What do Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Mello, Blake(Dirk to a lesser degree) all have in common about 5-2 years ago when they were expected to have one of their best years because of their talent level. Even your dumb azz should know this one, Bozo. Dwight, the best big man over the last six or seven years has played with the games best shooting guards, Chris Paul with games best front court, Lebron and Wade, the best wings ever. After Amare showed he could adequately carry a team Mello joins him and the team sinks -(Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, Paul Pierce, Lopez, Garnett) Why???

And who is stupid enough to say stock piling guarantees better ball with inexperienced players playing key roles when waaaay more experienced players, players who were top 1,2 and 3 at their positions, players that are both more flexible, whose game is way more flexible than Love or Kyrie's game.

You act like you are so stupid you didn't know that SA was the best TEAM the previous two years and GS this year. Dallas was the best team in the first year of super teams and that's your team, knuckle head. But that's expecting a lost idiot to understand basic dynamics of the last 4 years. Talent over talent has proven much weaker over the last 7 years you moronic garbage dump. Do you want to discuss that? Need I break this down for you. I mean don't you ever want to save face here.

You guys are saying that Cleveland will breeze thru the league next year. I guarantee you they won't.

[DMAVS41]

Like I said....he makes no sense.

[Pointguard]

And part two is that players take after their star players. Its easier when its one player than when its three. Both Kyrie (when they started to press in college his body gave - I hope this isn't the case forward) and Love just might not have the bodies to press for 34 minutes, which would change the whole energy of Della and Thompson who are major workhorses that have proven their worth. Love and Kyrie can both be outworked, are average defenders at best, and the team has played a little better without them. That's the only empirical evidence we have. You have to be blind not to see that. Now, the chemistry should get better next year.

[Pointguard]

Like I said....he makes no sense.
How is it I always know you can't respond. I gave specific details. Refute one. I categorically laid it out 4 critical points and added on to it. Whats the matter can't hang. :lol

[DMAVS41]

How is it I always know you can't respond. I gave specific details. Refute one. I categorically laid it out 4 critical points and added on to it. Whats the matter can't hang. :lol

Honestly...this time you are so wrong that it's not worth the time.

It's remarkable how dumb some of the people are here...I knew you were crazy, but I didn't realize you were this stupid as well.

You've made no critical points...just the rambling of nonsense.

[Pointguard]

Honestly...this time you are so wrong that it's not worth the time.

It's remarkable how dumb some of the people are here...I knew you were crazy, but I didn't realize you were this stupid as well.

You've made no critical points...just the rambling of nonsense.
I love it when you come out like you are strong and leave in a whimper. I'll make it easy for you. So now I am going to corner you so that you have to leave the thread with your head down.

1.Talent on top of talent hasn't proven superior to less talented teams.
Yes or No.

2.Young inexperienced key players have proven that they are keys to winning championships.
Yes or No

3.Newly formed teams with inexperienced talent win championships right away. Has this ever happened in the history of the league.
Yes or No

4.You guarantee Cleveland will destroy the league next year.
Yes or No.

Now leave the thread and punk out like you always do. I don't expect you to apologize because you aren't bright enough. But I know you can't respond. Fall in line idiot.

[MavsSuperFan]

Kevin love is ridiculously overrated. He is an inefficient scorer that is horrible on defense. He will fail to meet expectations of a max level player on his next team as well.

[DMAVS41]

I love it when you come out like you are strong and leave in a whimper. I'll make it easy for you. So now I am going to corner you so that you have to leave the thread with your head down.

1.Talent on top of talent hasn't proven superior to less talented teams.
Yes or No.

2.Young inexperienced key players have proven that they are keys to winning championships.
Yes or No

3.Newly formed teams with inexperienced talent win championships right away. Has this ever happened in the history of the league.
Yes or No

4.You guarantee Cleveland will destroy the league next year.
Yes or No.

Now leave the thread and punk out like you always do. I don't expect you to apologize because you aren't bright enough. But I know you can't respond. Fall in line idiot.

1. False. The teams with the most talent usually win.

2. False. Love/Kyrie have been around for a while now. They have played in the Olympics and won a gold medal. They aren't rookies or something. Andy is hardly young.

3. Are you talking about the Warriors or Cavs here?

4. What? I said they could destroy the league if they are healthy....shit...they basically destroyed the league ever since the trade. They went like 46-11 in their last 57 games before the finals.

You are a ****ing moron. I'm sorry to be rude. This Cavs team is so much better when healthy it's ****ing absurd. The fact that you think this team is better off playing Delly and James Jones huge minutes rather than Kyrie and Love just confirms everything I always thought about you.

Go back to propping that bitch made loser in Chicago.

Lost in all that. what does any of that have to do with the Cavs being better with Love, Kyrie, and Andy? It's not like they are bringing in seasoned vets in their absence.

[Lebron23]

This is is a silly question. They correct answer is Yes. Additional Dept is important in the NBA playoffs and Finals.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Honestly...this time you are so wrong that it's not worth the time.

It's remarkable how dumb some of the people are here...I knew you were crazy, but I didn't realize you were this stupid as well.

You've made no critical points...just the rambling of nonsense.


1. False. The teams with the most talent usually win.

2. False. Love/Kyrie have been around for a while now. They have played in the Olympics and won a gold medal. They aren't rookies or something. Andy is hardly young.

3. Are you talking about the Warriors or Cavs here?

4. What? I said they could destroy the league if they are healthy....shit...they basically destroyed the league ever since the trade. They went like 46-11 in their last 57 games before the finals.

You are a ****ing moron. I'm sorry to be rude. This Cavs team is so much better when healthy it's ****ing absurd. The fact that you think this team is better off playing Delly and James Jones huge minutes rather than Kyrie and Love just confirms everything I always thought about you.

Go back to propping that bitch made loser in Chicago.

Jesus Christ dude, you're going to town on this man's character.

:crazysam:

[Lebron23]

Jesus Christ dude, you're going to town on this dude's character.

:crazysam:


I always thought that you and Pointguard are the same posters.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I always thought that you and Pointguard are the same posters.

You're probably the only person on this forum to think that. Wannabe detective :oldlol:

PG is a cool poster tho. I respect some of the basketball opinions he has to offer for sure.

[Milbuck]

Why DMAVS always clowning Rose and shit? Leave the guy alone :coleman:

[Pointguard]

1. False. The teams with the most talent usually win.
Top heavy talent has not proven to be above team oriented teams. You know better clown.


2. False. Love/Kyrie have been around for a while now. They have played in the Olympics and won a gold medal. They aren't rookies or something.
First time NBA playoffs. Don't play stupid. Oh my bad, you aren't bright enough to play it another way.


3. Are you talking about the Warriors or Cavs here?
Wow, you honestly don't know that the Warriors 8 players of their top 10 players were on their team last year. What basically their top 7???


4. What? I said they could destroy the league if they are healthy....shit...they basically destroyed the league ever since the trade. They went like 46-11 in their last 57 games before the finals.
Nope. You are saying they are obviously better than a team that dominated the league (GS). This means, that they would steam role the league next year without question - the playoffs too. Should not be any excuse with Love and Kyrie healthy. No excuses because they are definitely better. There is no other interpretation, here. Anything else and they aren't definitely better.

You were better off not answering but I applaud you trying.

[Lebron23]

You were probably the only person on this forum to think that. Wannabe detective :oldlol:

PG is a cool poster tho. I respect some of the basketball opinions he has to offer for sure.


:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

You are both arguing with DMAVS41 in the other threads. And I don't think you have been a fan of Derrick Rose.

[DMAVS41]

Top heavy talent has not proven to be above team oriented teams. You know better clown.

First time NBA playoffs. Don't play stupid. Oh my bad, you aren't bright enough to play it another way.

Wow, you honestly don't know that the Warriors 8 players of their top 10 players were on their team last year. What basically their top 7???

Nope. You are saying they are obviously better than a team that dominated the league (GS). This means, that they would steam role the league next year without question - the playoffs too. Should not be any excuse with Love and Kyrie healthy. No excuses because they are definitely better. There is no other interpretation, here. Anything else and they aren't definitely better.

You were better off not answering but I applaud you trying.


Here we go again. You are arguing a straw man as usual.

Lets sort that is out to make you look stupid as usual.

1. I said I'd still take this Warriors team over a healthy Cavs team. The debate is not healthy Cavs vs Warriors. It's about current Cavs vs healthy Cavs. And no, the most talented teams usually win.

2. The Cavs aren't a top heavy talented team when fully healthy...they are just a loaded team top to bottom. Also, talent wins out. The 22 most talented teams to make the finals according to that 538 study went 16-6 in the finals

3. The argument is about the Cavs winning the title...it's about healthy Cavs vs current Cavs. Please don't straw man like you always do.

4. Another straw man...not surprising. I said the Cavs would be scary good if healthy next year. Are you ****ing denying this?

Please don't straw man.

Tell me why the injured Cavs that go 7 deep with Delly and James Jones being 2 of those players....tell me why they are better now than they are when healthy.

[Pointguard]

You are a ****ing moron. I'm sorry to be rude. This Cavs team is so much better when healthy it's ****ing absurd. The fact that you think this team is better off playing Delly and James Jones huge minutes rather than Kyrie and Love just confirms everything I always thought about you.
They would be deeper but with less identity. When GS moved AI to a starter GS asserted a leader to counteract Curry not asserting himself. If GS had already won a championship this isn't much of a series. They didn't know how to handle Lebron's, Delly's, Thompson's aggression because they were new to this. GS got caught backing up.




Lost in all that. what does any of that have to do with the Cavs being better with Love, Kyrie, and Andy? It's not like they are bringing in seasoned vets in their absence.
You weak, drunk punk. You came at me. I was minding my business. Now you acting like I attacked you. Calm down you complete joke.

[JZ600]

Someone pls pass the popcorn.

Got some of these kids pretty worked up:cheers:

[Lebron23]

A healthy Cavaliers team would beat the Warriors in 5 games. Have you seen Irving blocked some of the shots of Curry in Game 1??? And Delly is going to be a more pain in the @$$ for the Warriors if he comes off the bench.

[DMAVS41]

They would be deeper but with less identity. When GS moved AI to a starter GS asserted a leader to counteract Curry not asserting himself. If GS had already won a championship this isn't much of a series. They didn't know how to handle Lebron's, Delly's, Thompson's aggression because they were new to this. GS got caught backing up.


You weak, drunk punk. You came at me. I was minding my business. Now you acting like I attacked you. Calm down you complete joke.

All you do is create straw men....

I never said the Cavs would win for sure if healthy. In fact, I said I'd still pick the Warriors.

The Cavs know who they are. They've been dominant since the trades were made. They had an identity.

Provide evidence why they are better without Kyrie, Love, and Andy...that is what this debate is about. Not about anything else.

[Pointguard]

Here we go again. You are arguing a straw man as usual.

Lets sort that is out to make you look stupid as usual.

1. I said I'd still take this Warriors team over a healthy Cavs team. The debate is not healthy Cavs vs Warriors. It's about current Cavs vs healthy Cavs. And no, the most talented teams usually win.
Bozo, you didn't read the OP. Drinking went heavy early today. Its about these playoffs. Reread it.


2. The Cavs aren't a top heavy talented team when fully healthy...they are just a loaded team top to bottom. Also, talent wins out. The 22 most talented teams to make the finals according to that 538 study went 16-6 in the finals
Their third best player was a best player on another team and a league leader in rebounds. Their second best player is borderline top 5 player at his position and a top ten player. That's top heavy. The Clippers, OKC, Miami were top heavy teams last year.


3. The argument is about the Cavs winning the title...it's about healthy Cavs vs current Cavs. Please don't straw man like you always do.
OP states "Are Cavs better without Kyrie Love?
How much of a difference would they really have made in the playoffs?
Assuming they are both 100%"

Now you can't read. I always knew you were stupid but now I see its growing on you.


4. Another straw man...not surprising. I said the Cavs would be scary good if healthy next year. Are you ****ing denying this?
idiot, Read the OP.



Tell me why the injured Cavs that go 7 deep with Delly and James Jones being 2 of those players....tell me why they are better now than they are when healthy.
The defensive concept has intimidated GS. If GS gets the confidence its over. Kyrie and Love would provide less intensity. Cleveland had a tough way about them and defensive identity intimidates like most other great defensive teams.

[SamuraiSWISH]

No. They need another creator and / or scorer. As any great team does. I do think however they are better with Thompson's defense at PF than Love's pouty attitude and corner 3 ball.

[DMAVS41]

Bozo, you didn't read the OP. Drinking went heavy early today. Its about these playoffs. Reread it.

Their third best player was a best player on another team and a league leader in rebounds. Their second best player is borderline top 5 player at his position and a top ten player. That's top heavy. The Clippers, OKC, Miami were top heavy teams last year.

OP states "Are Cavs better without Kyrie Love?
How much of a difference would they really have made in the playoffs?
Assuming they are both 100%"

Now you can't read. I always knew you were stupid but now I see its growing on you.

idiot, Read the OP.

The defensive concept has intimidated GS. If GS gets the confidence its over. Kyrie and Love would provide less intensity. Cleveland had a tough way about them and defensive identity intimidates like most other great defensive teams.

I'll say it again. The debate has been about this team now vs a healthy Cavs team.

That is what we've been discussing....

I have no idea if they win or not, but I do know they are better when healthy.

Not hard. Just address what I say and don't straw man based on some other post.

As to the one claim you did make that is relevant. You claim Kyrie and Love would provide less intensity. What are you basing this off of? Kyrie looked pretty damn intense out there in game 1. Also, is more intensity better than having 2 more all nba type players on a team that desperately needs depth?

The answer is simple...the Cavs are much better when healthy. James Jones and Delly playing this much is not a good look. LeBron having to play 45 minutes a game is not a good look. Having only one player that can do anything on offense is not a good look.

It's just a much worse team without Love/Kyrie...only idiots would debate this.

[Pointguard]

All you do is create straw men....

I never said the Cavs would win for sure if healthy. In fact, I said I'd still pick the Warriors.

The Cavs know who they are. They've been dominant since the trades were made. They had an identity.

Provide evidence why they are better without Kyrie, Love, and Andy...that is what this debate is about. Not about anything else.
"Are Cavs better without Kyrie Love?
How much of a difference would they really have made in the playoffs?
Assuming they are both 100%"
Its not strawmen. You can't read!!!

[ballin33]

Honestly if the cavs had love, Irving and varejo they would sweep this series/win in 5. Love is not terrible on defense, and they were just starting to find their grove offensively with him. Kyrie is a top 3 point guard in terms of pure skill. Then you have they're gritty energy guys off the bench, delly providing d, varejo and Thompson destroying on glass, smith providing scoring. And plus they'd have the advantage of always leaving a scorer on the floor with love,Irving, and lebron. Honestly they should be overwhelming favorites next year.

[Pointguard]

I always thought that you and Pointguard are the same posters.
Really, why??? I like Kuniva because he gets behind his points and is very much himself, not a follower ... as good as it gets around here. His style is very different than mine.

[DMAVS41]

"Are Cavs better without Kyrie Love?
How much of a difference would they really have made in the playoffs?
Assuming they are both 100%"
Its not strawmen. You can't read!!!

What are you talking about?

Are they better without them or not? That is what I've been addressing. And they are clearly better with them.

You disagree. Right? You said they are definitely better against the Warriors. And people with brains know that is a ****ing joke.

[nba_55]

There are people who believe Cavs are better without Love, Kyrie and Varejao ? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Pointguard]

Jesus Christ dude, you're going to town on this man's character.

:crazysam:
That's all he has. Google our names together. The threads are hilarious, due to the fact he doesn't have shame.

[Pointguard]

What are you talking about?

Are they better without them or not? That is what I've been addressing. And they are clearly better with them.

You disagree. Right? You said they are definitely better against the Warriors. And people with brains know that is a ****ing joke.
:lol

Its about playing the Warriors. You always distracted, can't read, repeat yourself endlessly, can't grasp concepts, etc. Get a new routine.

[DMAVS41]

Against GS this year, yes, without question. As a young team they without identity, with Kyrie they would have embraced more of an offensive game because they would have two top 10 scorers. I believe Atlanta would have beat them as well. Without Kyrie they embraced a defensive minded team which is the way to beat GS and Atlanta. A unit centered around one piece is easier to corral and pick up the energy with. Of course team dept is what's killing them now.

Next year they will have more of an identity and Kyrie will fit in better. Only concern would be good teams have effective PG's and Kyrie is definitely a fall off from Delly. But Kyrie is one of the best offensively.

Here is your post PG.

I was responding to this nonsense. You believe that the Hawks would have beat them if they were healthy.

My god...think about that...you think a team that swept the Hawks is going to then lose to them with 3 of their top 7 players healthy.

Please take some time to grasp what you are claiming here.

[DMAVS41]

:lol

Its about playing the Warriors. You always distracted, can't read, repeat yourself endlessly, can't grasp concepts, etc. Get a new routine.

And they aren't better against the Warriors. I just don't know if it would be enough to beat them if healthy.

Just a simple do they have a better chance to win if right? Yea...not even a debate.

Check the above post i quoted...you claimed the Cavs would have lost to the Hawks if healthy.

You don't even know what the **** you say.

Take the L

[RedBlackAttack]

Trolling or dumb. Bottom line.

No sense in debating them.

[Pointguard]

There are people who believe Cavs are better without Love, Kyrie and Varejao ? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
The teams' identity without them is defense. How has Cleveland played GS a little better than even when GS is obviously the more efficient team and they have good defense. What is more important than efficiency??? Crazy aggression always seems to work. Look at Celtics, Pistons older SA teams. If the Cavs play a scoring game (Kyrie and Love) they lose that focus and have to try to outscore GS which isn't happening. Sure, if the Cavs have more players they wouldn't be that tired now, but realize that more GS players would be hotter. Constant pressure is a whole different animal than kind of defensive.

[nba_55]

The teams' identity without them is defense. How has Cleveland played GS a little better than even when GS is obviously the more efficient team and they have good defense. What is more important than efficiency??? Crazy aggression always seems to work. Look at Celtics, Pistons older SA teams. If the Cavs play a scoring game (Kyrie and Love) they lose that focus and have to try to outscore GS which isn't happening. Sure, if the Cavs have more players they wouldn't be that tired now, but realize that more GS players would be hotter. Constant pressure is a whole different animal than kind of defensive.

Why do you act like Cavs would be a bad defensive team with Love, Kyrie and varejao? They did great defensively after the trades.

[Pointguard]

Here is your post PG.

I was responding to this nonsense. You believe that the Hawks would have beat them if they were healthy.

My god...think about that...you think a team that swept the Hawks is going to then lose to them with 3 of their top 7 players healthy.

Please take some time to grasp what you are claiming here.
Stick to GS and the OP. This is your first time bringing up Atl so stop lying.

I am not going for the sideshow. FOCUS

[DMAVS41]

The teams' identity without them is defense. How has Cleveland played GS a little better than even when GS is obviously the more efficient team and they have good defense. What is more important than efficiency??? Crazy aggression always seems to work. Look at Celtics, Pistons older SA teams. If the Cavs play a scoring game (Kyrie and Love) they lose that focus and have to try to outscore GS which isn't happening. Sure, if the Cavs have more players they wouldn't be that tired now, but realize that more GS players would be hotter. Constant pressure is a whole different animal than kind of defensive.


Not much supports this.

The Cavs played at an extremely slow pace all year and would absolutely not be stupid enough to try to play fast against the Warriors though.

The Cavs could still play the way they are...they'd just be way better at it with way more versatility.

Why would a team that played at the 25th slowest pace in the league all year just randomly start speeding up the game when it's against their best interest and they know that? And they have Lebron being single covered?

Again, you make no sense at all.

[DMAVS41]

Stick to GS and the OP. This is your first time bringing up Atl so stop lying.

I am not going for the sideshow. FOCUS

Actually it's not.

I will quote my original post to you below.

[DMAVS41]

This doesn't seem like trolling.

Granted, this post is from a notoriously stupid poster that rarely makes sense, but this doesn't read like trolling.

It reads like an idiot saying that the Cavs would go from sweeping the Hawks to losing to them if they got their team healthy. :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm


PG

This was my first post in response to yours. All it does is mention the Hawks.

Please stop dodging....take the L

[Rose'sACL]

This poster "point guard" is an idiot.

Cavs regularly took love out when they wanted and love didn't mind. Cavs would get love out if he was not doing well.
Kyrie would be 10 times the upgrade over delly.
Does this guy think that mazgov/Thompson/delly would get no playing time if love and kyrie were healthy?
Cavs were playing all time great basketball with healthy love and kyrie in second half of the season. Warriors would have no answer because they can't go small against love and kyrie.
The only reason warriors are in this series is because cavs have 1 ball handler. Delly can't dribble at all.

I hope that cavs keep this team together because they would most probably win multiple rings in the future and be even scarier.

[Pointguard]

Why do you act like Cavs would be a bad defensive team with Love, Kyrie and varejao? They did great defensively after the trades.
Varejao is not in the OP. Their defense was never this intense. How are you saying they are winning these games? Love has little intensity. Dova and Kyrie aren't at the same level.

[DMAVS41]

Varejao is not in the OP. Their defense was never this intense. How are you saying they are winning these games? Love has little intensity. Dova and Kyrie aren't at the same level.

Intensity levels generally rise in the playoffs.

Also, Kyrie played about as intense as I've ever seen him in game 1. And in that game...he was way better than Delly has been in any game this series.

You have no basis for anything you are saying. That is your problem.

[nba_55]

Varejao is not in the OP. Their defense was never this intense. How are you saying they are winning these games? Love has little intensity. Dova and Kyrie aren't at the same level.

And?That doesn't mean they wouldn't be a good defensive team. Thompson and Delly weren't that great defensively during the regular season games. They took theit intensity to another level later in the playoffs. The same could have happened with love and Kyrie. How do you know it wouldn't happen? Actually, Kyrie was great in game 1 defensively.

[nba_55]

Intensity levels generally rise in the playoffs.

Also, Kyrie played about as intense as I've ever seen him in game 1. And in that game...he was way better than Delly has been in any game this series.

You have no basis for anything you are saying. That is your problem.

This. Delly and Thompson never played with that intensity during the season.

[Pointguard]

It reads like an idiot saying that the Cavs would go from sweeping the Hawks to losing to them if they got their team healthy.
PG

This was my first post in response to yours. All it does is mention the Hawks.

Please stop dodging....take the L
Its a conditional phrase idiot. Not part of your point, moron.

[Rose'sACL]

Varejao is not in the OP. Their defense was never this intense. How are you saying they are winning these games? Love has little intensity. Dova and Kyrie aren't at the same level.
Ya. Kyrie is 10x the player delly is. Love would get taken out if it isn't working. Blatt didn't hesitate to take love out if he felt it wasn't working .

Cavs would have a good rotation and would not be gassed like they are right now.

I know it is hard for you an idiot like you to understand but more choices are better. These are not just more choices. These are better choices.

[Pointguard]

And?That doesn't mean they wouldn't be a good defensive team. Thompson and Delly weren't that great defensively during the regular season games. They took theit intensity to another level later in the playoffs. The same could have happened with love and Kyrie. How do you know it wouldn't happen? Actually, Kyrie was great in game 1 defensively.
I don't know its guess work here. I do know that if you took out one key defensive player with the Celtics, Pistons and SA teams they would have likely lost those years. Dova has been massive to me.

[DMAVS41]

Its a conditional phrase idiot. Not part of your point, moron.

What is this shit?

Just own up to the following...

1. You've gone on record saying that the Cavs would have lost to the Hawks if they were healthy.

2. You've gone on record saying this Cavs team has a much better chance to beat the Warriors than they would if healthy.


Now, that is fine, but you can't defend those positions at all. I just got done destroying your intensity and pace points.

I'll say them again in case you've ignore or forgotten them.

The Cavs played at a slow pace all year. Nothing supports the notion that they'd play fast when they know they shouldn't.

Intensity levels go up in the playoffs. Did you watch game 1? Are you honestly saying Kyrie wasn't intense in that game?

[nba_55]

I don't know its guess work here. I do know that if you took out one key defensive player with the Celtics, Pistons and SA teams they would have likely lost those years. Dova has been massive to me.

It's kind of pointless discussing guesses. Everyone thinks their guesses are right and nobody is ready to change their guess.

[Pointguard]

Not much supports this.

The Cavs played at an extremely slow pace all year and would absolutely not be stupid enough to try to play fast against the Warriors though.

The Cavs could still play the way they are...they'd just be way better at it with way more versatility.

Why would a team that played at the 25th slowest pace in the league all year just randomly start speeding up the game when it's against their best interest and they know that? And they have Lebron being single covered?

Again, you make no sense at all.
:lol
Good defense is playing slow. :lol And the funny thing is that I said intense to give you a clue.

[DMAVS41]

:lol
Good defense is playing slow. :lol And the funny thing is that I said intense to give you a clue.

And they played slow all year. So what are you talking about? You just got done saying they'd speed up the game, but they wouldn't. They'd play even slower than they normally do as they know it's in their best interest.

You haven't acknowledged Kyrie playing great and intense in game 1.

You haven't acknowledged how much of an impact Love would have on spacing and rebounding alone....forget actually being able to create shots on his own and give the Warriors yet another worry defensively.

[Pointguard]

And they played slow all year. So what are you talking about?
:biggums:
Wow.

[DMAVS41]

:biggums:
Wow.

Please try and at least make sense if we are going to have a conversation.

I know it's hard for you, but please try.

[Pointguard]

It's kind of pointless discussing guesses. Everyone thinks their guesses are right and nobody is ready to change their guess.
Deal with the concepts and what you see. And be honest.

Did they lose a step when Kyrie went out? Just be honest. Do you think they can outscore GS? So what is the better option? Do you trust yourself enough to do this.

[Pointguard]

Please try and at least make sense if we are going to have a conversation.

I know it's hard for you, but please try.
You are equating playing slow as key to their defensive output. And you can't see the flaw in that?

[DMAVS41]

You are equating playing slow as key to their defensive output. And you can't see the flaw in that?

No I'm not.

I said they wouldn't just randomly start playing a different style like you claimed they would.

I'm saying that having Kyrie and Love out there doesn't turn them into this run and gun team that would turn into this "scoring fest" you keep speaking of.

They played at one of the slowest paces with them all year. That isn't changing against a team that they'd want to even play slower.

[nba_55]

Deal with the concepts and what you see. And be honest.

Did they lose a step when Kyrie went out? Just be honest. Do you think they can outscore GS? So what is the better option? Do you trust yourself enough to do this.

Honestly, I believe they would have a much better chance of winning this series with Kyrie than without Kyrie.

[tpols]

Deal with the concepts and what you see. And be honest.

Did they lose a step when Kyrie went out? Just be honest. Do you think they can outscore GS? So what is the better option? Do you trust yourself enough to do this.

Exactly..

Curry with kyrie on him (even stuffing him twice)- 26/4/4, 113 ORTG

Curry with Delladova on him - 22/6/4, 85 ORTG

Curry in game 2 with delly on him... 69 ORTG.


Thats insane. Thats something.. kyrie could never force. Although it may have been a gimmick, short term manuever.. it worked. And yes, as you have detailed, it has been the defense of the cavs that has made it tough on GS superstars in a way kyrie or love wouldnt have been able to produce.. especially against curry.. he thought delly would be easy once kyrie went down but has gotten absolutley straight jacketed.

[nba_55]

Exactly..

Curry with kyrie on him (even stuffing him twice)- 26/4/4, 113 ORTG

Curry with Delladova on him - 22/6/4, 85 ORTG

Curry in game 2 with delly on him... 69 ORTG.


Thats insane. Thats something.. kyrie could never force. Although it may have been a gimmick, short term manuever.. it worked. And yes, as you have detailed, it has been the defense of the cavs that has made it tough on GS superstars in a way kyrie or love wouldnt have been able to produce.. especially against curry.. he thought delly would be easy once kyrie went down but has gotten absolutley straight jacketed.

LOL at this flip flopping hater acting objective. :lol :lol

[Pointguard]

No I'm not.

I said they wouldn't just randomly start playing a different style like you claimed they would.

I'm saying that having Kyrie and Love out there doesn't turn them into this run and gun team that would turn into this "scoring fest" you keep speaking of.

They played at one of the slowest paces with them all year. That isn't changing against a team that they'd want to even play slower.
OK, you do realize that Dova's defense was absolutely critical. If Curry gets hot its over in 5. You can't see the difference in defensive intensity? Really.

[Pointguard]

LOL at this flip flopping hater acting objective. :lol :lol
To be honest, he answered the questions with sincerity and backed it up. Its the people who don't answer and back it up that are the problem.

[DMAVS41]

OK, you do realize that Dova's defense was absolutely critical. If Curry gets hot its over in 5. You can't see the difference in defensive intensity? Really.

And Dova's horrid scoring has been absolutely critical as well.

If Curry gets hot it's over because the Cavs would have no answer for it at all with Delly and James Jones out there a lot rather than Love and Kyrie.

[nba_55]

To be honest, he answered the questions with sincerity and backed it up. Its the people who don't answer and back it up that are the problem.

1 game sample? :lol :lol Cavs were 15-1 against West with Kyrie and Love at one point. They had the best record with both of them. (after the trades)

With Kyrie and Love, Cavs gain more:
playmaking
shooting
scoring
post game
size
rebounding
depth

They lose:
a bit of defense

/thread

[DMAVS41]

Exactly..

Curry with kyrie on him (even stuffing him twice)- 26/4/4, 113 ORTG

Curry with Delladova on him - 22/6/4, 85 ORTG

Curry in game 2 with delly on him... 69 ORTG.


Thats insane. Thats something.. kyrie could never force. Although it may have been a gimmick, short term manuever.. it worked. And yes, as you have detailed, it has been the defense of the cavs that has made it tough on GS superstars in a way kyrie or love wouldnt have been able to produce.. especially against curry.. he thought delly would be easy once kyrie went down but has gotten absolutley straight jacketed.

That sounds like a lot of emphasis being placed on one game in which Curry missed a ton of wide open shots at home.

Not gonna say Delly didn't have a lot to do with it, but we also should be honest and just admit Curry missed quite a few good looks.

Anything can happen in 1 or 2 games.

It's about whether or not this team is better suited to win 4 out of 7 games.

And that answer is obviously no....regardless of what happens.

[Pointguard]

And Dova's horrid scoring has been absolutely critical as well.

If Curry gets hot it's over because the Cavs would have no answer for it at all with Delly and James Jones out there a lot rather than Love and Kyrie.
What do great coaches say wins playoffs?

Lebron would also be less aggressive with two other scorers on his team. See that incredible unaggressive series, highly efficient series last year and his play in '11. Aggression is the only way to counteract more talent and highly efficient teams. If Lebron was this aggressive in his whole prime - he's GOAT. If Lebron imposed his will like this he's GOAT. Harder to impose when you are sharing. Especially with a new team. Happens all the time - Paul, Howard, Mello, Wade, Kobe, Lebron...

Della and Thompson fit right in with the aggressive persona.

[J Shuttlesworth]

OK, you do realize that Dova's defense was absolutely critical. If Curry gets hot its over in 5. You can't see the difference in defensive intensity? Really.
Delly:

Game 2: 9 pts, 6 turnovers on 3-10 shooting
Game 3: 20 pts, 4 assists, 7-17 shooting
Game 4: 10 pts, 4 assists, 3 turnovers, 3-14 shooting

I mean you really don't think that Kyrie's offense doesn't make up for what you lose defensively? Kyrie had 23/7/6/4/2 on 10-22 shooting game one.. his first finals game ever.

I mean there's no way that Kyrie shits the bed like Delly by going 3-14 shooting, or 3-10. He's just too good offensively to let that happen.

And really, the Cavs defense on Curry isn't just 1 v 1 defense. They send a trap over to him nearly every time he catches the ball and let someone like Green/Iggy take a wide open shot. It's the same thing that Warriors did to Tony Allen. You talk about Delly's defense being very important..

What was the Cavs achilles heel in game 4? Turnovers? Free throws? Defense? Open shots? It was all of the above, because of REST. Right now, LeBron is the only player on the Cavs who can create his own shot outside of JR who is just absurdly bad right now. You don't think that having Kyrie to create space for LeBron, handle the ball, and create his own shots would be huge in this series? That's exactly what the Cavs lack. They can afford letting Curry make 2 extra shots if they have a more energized LeBron and another player to keep Golden State's defense working. Most importantly, Kyrie can run the team and allow LeBron to sit instead of averaging 47 minutes a game. It's that simple.

More importantly, Curry would ACTUALLY have to work on defense instead of covering Dellavedova, who is not anything close to a legit offensive threat. I mean there is just too much working in favor of Kyrie/Love to make any kind of legit argument that the Cavs would be better without them.

[houston]

no they ain't

[Pointguard]

1 game sample? :lol :lol Cavs were 15-1 against West with Kyrie and Love at one point. They had the best record with both of them. (after the trades)

With Kyrie and Love, Cavs gain more:
playmaking
shooting
scoring
post game
size
rebounding
depth

They lose:
a bit of defense

/thread
You missed the main qualities that win in the playoffs. Will Power and aggression. If you can impose your will on how the other team plays you will likely win. If GS runs, they win. Its not questionable. If they get open shots they win. If Cleveland slows it down and closes out on the jump shooters they win. I haven't seen a team outscore GS. If GS is tight and don't run they will lose.

[DMAVS41]

What do great coaches say wins playoffs?

Lebron would also be less aggressive with two other scorers on his team. See that incredible unaggressive series, highly efficient series last year and his play in '11. Aggression is the only way to counteract more talent and highly efficient teams. If Lebron was this aggressive in his whole prime - he's GOAT. If Lebron imposed his will like this he's GOAT. Harder to impose when you are sharing. Especially with a new team. Happens all the time - Paul, Howard, Mello, Wade, Kobe, Lebron...

Della and Thompson fit right in with the aggressive persona.

Lebron's offense, outside of game 1, is killing the Cavs. Aggressive or not...it's been dreadful and him taking less shots in favor of Kyrie and Love would be an enormous boost to the Cavs.

What wins can be many different things.

But these Cavs aren't turning into a shitty defensive team if healthy. I think that is your big flaw here. Not to mention this is a series...not a one off game.

Kyrie and Love would actually make the Warriors defend consistently. They couldn't just leave them wide open like they do with Delly and others. Making Curry and Klay and the rest of the team work harder on defense is a huge part of beating them and wearing them down.

All in all it's pretty simple. You lose a little defense in favor of far more versatility, better rebounding, way more offense, and fresher legs for everyone.

I don't like using arguments like this, but if you went into the Cavs locker room and told the players you think they are better without Love and Kyrie...they'd laugh you out of the room.

[nba_55]

You missed the main qualities that win in the playoffs. Will Power and aggression. If you can impose your will on how the other team plays you will likely win. If GS runs, they win. Its not questionable. If they get open shots they win. If Cleveland slows it down and closes out on the jump shooters they win. I haven't seen a team outscore GS. If GS is tight and don't run they will lose.

This is why I said it was pointless discussing with you. Will and agression? Really? That's your argument? :lol :lol

[Pointguard]

Delly:

Game 2: 9 pts, 6 turnovers on 3-10 shooting
Game 3: 20 pts, 4 assists, 7-17 shooting
Game 4: 10 pts, 4 assists, 3 turnovers, 3-14 shooting

I mean you really don't think that Kyrie's offense doesn't make up for what you lose defensively? Kyrie had 23/7/6/4/2 on 10-22 shooting game one.. his first finals game ever.

I mean there's no way that Kyrie shits the bed like Delly by going 3-14 shooting, or 3-10. He's just too good offensively to let that happen.

And really, the Cavs defense on Curry isn't just 1 v 1 defense. They send a trap over to him nearly every time he catches the ball and let someone like Green/Iggy take a wide open shot. It's the same thing that Warriors did to Tony Allen. You talk about Delly's defense being very important..

What was the Cavs achilles heel in game 4? Turnovers? Free throws? Defense? Open shots? It was all of the above, because of REST. Right now, LeBron is the only player on the Cavs who can create his own shot outside of JR who is just absurdly bad right now. You don't think that having Kyrie to create space for LeBron, handle the ball, and create his own shots would be huge in this series? That's exactly what the Cavs lack. They can afford letting Curry make 2 extra shots if they have a more energized LeBron and another player to keep Golden State's defense working. Most importantly, Kyrie can run the team and allow LeBron to sit instead of averaging 47 minutes a game. It's that simple.

More importantly, Curry would ACTUALLY have to work on defense instead of covering Dellavedova, who is not anything close to a legit offensive threat. I mean there is just too much working in favor of Kyrie/Love to make any kind of legit argument that the Cavs would be better without them.
You are not going to outscore GS. The West is based on outscoring the other team. If the defensive concept gets sloppy you can't beat GS. Tell me which team has out scored GS.

Love and Kyrie would help the concept get sloppy. They miss assignments, they go matador after awhile (Kyrie did play good D the first game but habitats are not easily changed). And great offenses have a way of bringing that out weaknesses.

[Pointguard]

This is why I said it was pointless discussing with you. Will and agression? Really? That's your argument? :lol :lol
:lol :lol Your whole life is based on that. Its in the human reality box. You must live in a virtual world.

[nba_55]

:lol :lol Your whole life is based on that. Its in the human reality box. You must live in a virtual world.

And how do you objectively measure that? And how do you know with 100% healthy Love and Kyrie Cavs wouldn't give more agression and will power?

[nba_55]

You are not going to outscore GS. The West is based on outscoring the other team. If the defensive concept gets sloppy you can't beat GS. Tell me which team has out scored GS.

Love and Kyrie would help the concept get sloppy. They miss assignments, they go matador after awhile (Kyrie did play good D the first game but habitats are not easily changed). And great offenses have a way of bringing that out weaknesses.

Which team has a better chance of winning against gsw?
Team A: #1 defense and #25 offense
Team B: #3 defense and #2 offense

[DMAVS41]

You are not going to outscore GS. The West is based on outscoring the other team. If the defensive concept gets sloppy you can't beat GS. Tell me which team has out scored GS.

Love and Kyrie would help the concept get sloppy. They miss assignments, they go matador after awhile (Kyrie did play good D the first game but habitats are not easily changed). And great offenses have a way of bringing that out weaknesses.

Well, you have to score some points. And because the Warriors are so elite offensively....you aren't going to win many games not scoring well. Just simple math.

Also, the West had 3 of the 4 best defenses in the league. And the Warriors beat one of the in the playoffs already. The Grizzlies play better defense than this Cavs team.

Why didn't the Grizzlies win? Well, they don't have Lebron of course, but because they can't score worth shit.

You still have to score.

[J Shuttlesworth]

You are not going to outscore GS. The West is based on outscoring the other team. If the defensive concept gets sloppy you can't beat GS. Tell me which team has out scored GS.

Love and Kyrie would help the concept get sloppy. They miss assignments, they go matador after awhile (Kyrie did play good D the first game but habitats are not easily changed). And great offenses have a way of bringing that out weaknesses.
One team that outscored GS is the Cavaliers with Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving back in January.

But I think you're missing the point that the Cavs can still keep the tempo slow with Kyrie and Love. Not only that, but Tristan Thompson and Kevin Love in the same lineup DESTROY the rebounding on both ends. That's how you can outscore GS, is by taking away their possessions with great rebounders like Love and Thompson.

I don't know why you think Kyrie Irvings play is some kind of faced paced transition game... same with Love. Kyrie will take his time, walk up the floor, do some dribble moves, cross you up, get to the paint and make crazy layups without much time left on the clock. He also adds another element of shooting for when LeBron takes it to the paint and kicks it out.

Love is another player they can post up, especially when LeBron is resting. Despite Kevin Love shooting a lot of jumpers, the Cavs started going to him in the post quite a bit towards the end of the regular season, and in the boston series. He was getting to the line a lot this way too, which is the exact opposite of what Golden State wants.

And you really are just COMPLETELY dismissing the fatigue aspect. I don't think you've mentioned it once despite everyone using it as the biggest, most important argument. So with Kyrie, and Love:

-You get rebounding
-You gain scoring
-You keep the pace slow/iso ball
-You have a legit 8 man rotation which allows LeBron to rest

I'm not even sure you really lose anything defensively. They're still going to trap Curry, and Love is the type of player they would put on Iguodola or Green. Love would stay in the paint for rebounding and allow Iggy/Green to take outside shots all day.

[Doranku]

Have you guys really spent 9 pages discussing whether a team is better with their 2nd and 3rd best players healthy?

:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

And how do you objectively measure that? And how do you know with 100% healthy Love and Kyrie Cavs wouldn't give more agression and will power?

Yea...this is the worst part about conversing with him.

You uses horrid sports cliches repeatedly. He talks in this weird realm of subjectivity and says things that have little to no substance and wants them to be accepted as fact.

[DMAVS41]

Have you guys really spent 9 pages discussing whether a team is better with their 2nd and 3rd best players healthy?

:oldlol:

Logic and reason has failed us. The clowns won't listen.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Well, you have to score some points. And because the Warriors are so elite offensively....you aren't going to win many games not scoring well. Just simple math.

Also, the West had 3 of the 4 best defenses in the league. And the Warriors beat one of the in the playoffs already. The Grizzlies play better defense than this Cavs team.

Why didn't the Grizzlies win? Well, they don't have Lebron of course, but because they can't score worth shit.

You still have to score.
More importantly, you won't be able to score when all of your shooters legs are completely dead from playing so many minutes... you know... minutes they're playing because they only have 6 players since Kyrie/Love are injured :lol

[J Shuttlesworth]

Have you guys really spent 9 pages discussing whether a team is better with their 2nd and 3rd best players healthy?

:oldlol:
Me and nba_55 had to come in as DMAVS41's 2nd and 3rd option. DMAVS clearly getting fatigued from spending so many minutes arguing with a retard. He wouldn't have been able to shoulder the load on his own without losing his shit, so we came in for help.

[DMAVS41]

Me and nba_55 had to come in as DMAVS41's 2nd and 3rd option. DMAVS clearly getting fatigued from spending so many minutes arguing with a retard. He wouldn't have been able to shoulder the load on his own without losing his shit, so we came in for help.


Actually so true.

I'm dwindling.

[Rose'sACL]

I don't know its guess work here. I do know that if you took out one key defensive player with the Celtics, Pistons and SA teams they would have likely lost those years. Dova has been massive to me.
Delly was great in 1 game. Average in 1 and bad in others. The fact that he is small and still can't dribble tell me that he is a scrub who had a couple of good games.

Taking delly over kyrie against any matchup is laughable and shows that you don't know shit abut the NBA.

[Pointguard]

Which team has a better chance of winning against gsw?
Team A: #1 defense and #25 offense
Team B: #3 defense and #2 offense
They're more efficient, they score more, they have more range, they have more versatility, they get more easy baskets, they get more three pointers, they get a flow much easier. So Cleveland isn't going to beat them offensively. You have a chance if you can counteract that.

Numberwise GS also have a better defense. But Cleveland is winning on defense. GS as a young team without a lot of experience is subject to defense getting under their skin. Constant pressure can get under GS composure which affects their shooting. Not just regular good defense. Hard pressure defense on the key players. GS also lacked a strong rally the troops type of player. Curry isn't the emotional leader of this team so when they lose composure its not easy to get back to it. If Iggy adopts that role its over. Pressure without a leader affects all social structures.

Irving and Love are pressure release valves. Once GS gets its flow its a slaughter house.

[edrick]

You can have the best defense ever, but if you can't score as well, it's pointless.

[Pointguard]

One team that outscored GS is the Cavaliers with Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving back in January.

But I think you're missing the point that the Cavs can still keep the tempo slow with Kyrie and Love. Not only that, but Tristan Thompson and Kevin Love in the same lineup DESTROY the rebounding on both ends. That's how you can outscore GS, is by taking away their possessions with great rebounders like Love and Thompson.

Slowing the team down is Dmavs contribution, its helpful but full time pressure is way more important. Love and TT compete for time. Mozgov is also in that competition of Love's time. Its ludicrous to think that any version of Cav's Love is contributing more than those two are now. Love's feet are slow as well. Pressure is the main thing that's keeping them in the game. Love could contribute and would be great against some other teams. He's a baller but he hasn't been as great as he could be on Cleveland yet. And he can be a distraction at times and against certain teams. I always thought Love is a HOFer and still do. He's not a great fit on Cleveland for me.



I don't know why you think Kyrie Irvings play is some kind of faced paced transition game... same with Love. Kyrie will take his time, walk up the floor, do some dribble moves, cross you up, get to the paint and make crazy layups without much time left on the clock. He also adds another element of shooting for when LeBron takes it to the paint and kicks it out.
Help me out but Cleveland's offense is at best 5 or 6th best out West? Its not going to happen for Cleveland that way. Applying pressure has been the key here. And I think both Love and Kyrie kind of, well are pressure release valves.


And you really are just COMPLETELY dismissing the fatigue aspect. I don't think you've mentioned it once despite everyone using it as the biggest, most important argument. So with Kyrie, and Love:

I was the first one to say it. They need live bodies and that's the biggest reality they have now.



-You get rebounding
-You gain scoring
-You keep the pace slow/iso ball
-You have a legit 8 man rotation which allows LeBron to rest

I'm not even sure you really lose anything defensively. They're still going to trap Curry, and Love is the type of player they would put on Iguodola or Green. Love would stay in the paint for rebounding and allow Iggy/Green to take outside shots all day.
You gain things sure, and you need bodies. The biggest flaw is that. But if GS starts getting to this game of being more efficient, they score more, they have more range, they have more versatility, they get more easy baskets, they get more three pointers, they get a flow much easier. So Cleveland isn't going to beat them offensively. You have a chance if you can counteract that.

[Pointguard]

Me and nba_55 had to come in as DMAVS41's 2nd and 3rd option. DMAVS clearly getting fatigued from spending so many minutes arguing with a retard. He wouldn't have been able to shoulder the load on his own without losing his shit, so we came in for help.
Awwwe aren't you a sweety.

[Pointguard]

Yea...this is the worst part about conversing with him.

You uses horrid sports cliches repeatedly. He talks in this weird realm of subjectivity and says things that have little to no substance and wants them to be accepted as fact.

Hahaha, Cliches. Now that was funny. It was cliche when I said DH had a very bad leadership problem and wasn't connected or plays disjointed from his Orlando team. What happened after that. He went to LA bombed, Went to Houston and bombed and its widely recognized four years later that this is his problem.

Cliche when I said aggression meant more than efficiency as a leader as recent as two months ago and we are now witnessing it at its apex. One player, with horrible efficiency in the winnable games can beat the most efficient team in the league.

In a Tyrion voice: "You're good at this."

[Pointguard]

Actually so true.

I'm dwindling.
Wow, so you are getting weak for ButtisWorth.

[RedBlackAttack]

This thread is still going strong, eh?



http://i.imgur.com/0nwjj.gif

[Kingwillball]

Close it up with Irving and love cavs beat warriors in 4 or 5..

[GimmeThat]

no team is better without Calvin Johnson

[DMAVS41]

Hahaha, Cliches. Now that was funny. It was cliche when I said DH had a very bad leadership problem and wasn't connected or plays disjointed from his Orlando team. What happened after that. He went to LA bombed, Went to Houston and bombed and its widely recognized four years later that this is his problem.

Cliche when I said aggression meant more than efficiency as a leader as recent as two months ago and we are now witnessing it at its apex. One player, with horrible efficiency in the winnable games can beat the most efficient team in the league.

In a Tyrion voice: "You're good at this."


But the Warriors haven't been efficient in their losses....it just doesn't count for the Cavs you idiot. It goes both ways. If the Warriors make their shots like they normally do...this series is over.

So what the **** are you talking bout?

Curry had his worst shooting stretch of the season in games 2 and 3 when he had a 6 qtr run of 6 of 29 shooting.

The more efficient team has won 3 of the 4 games. And the only game that didn't happen was when Curry shot 5 of 23...hardly an argument that efficiency doesn't matter.

That didn't matter?

Take the ****ing L

It's playing out in front of us? What? It's the exact opposite. The more efficient team has won 3 of the 4 games and the one lone win was a game in which Curry had the worst shooting game of his career iirc. Yep....and you are so dumb you actually think this series is in your favor. Epic stupidity.

[tpols]

But the Warriors haven't been efficient in their losses....it just doesn't count for the Cavs you idiot. It goes both ways. If the Warriors make their shots like they normally do...this series is over.

So what the **** are you talking bout?

Curry had his worst shooting stretch of the season in games 2 and 3 when he had a 6 qtr run of 6 of 29 shooting.

The more efficient team has won 3 of the 4 games. And the only game that didn't happen was when Curry shot 5 of 23...hardly an argument that efficiency doesn't matter.

That didn't matter?

Take the ****ing L

It's playing out in front of us? What? It's the exact opposite. The more efficient team has won 3 of the 4 games and the one lone win was a game in which Curry had the worst shooting game of his career iirc. Yep....and you are so dumb you actually think this series is in your favor. Epic stupidity.

The Cavs have been playing a war of attrition type game dude.. theyre purposely taking tough inefficient shots at the end of the shotclock to try and get o rebounds and break down the other team physically. Then defending physical on the other end..

This isnt a "Miami Heat get the best shot possible everytime offense" built on efficiency, its based on pure agression and physicality. Exactly whqat PG has detailed yet you STILL are yet to comprehend. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

The Cavs have been playing a war of attrition type game dude.. theyre purposely taking tough inefficient shots at the end of the shotclock to try and get o rebounds and break down the other team physically. Then defending physical on the other end..

This isnt a "Miami Heat get the best shot possible everytime offense" built on efficiency, its based on pure agression and physicality. Exactly whqat PG has detailed yet you STILL are yet to comprehend. :oldlol:

Except efficiency is still winning out though.

3 of the 4 games have been won by the most efficient team...and in the one game the Warriors lost in which they were more efficient...Curry went 5-23....and really...the game was lost on the glass. The Warriors got killed on the boards.

It's the exact opposite of aggression is more important than efficiency....efficiency is king in this series.

LOL...that is what is so hilarious about you two...you don't get it still.

They are not purposely missing shots. They are purposely slowing down the ****ing game. Which is smart of course. But you can play slow and more efficient than they are now. Are you listening to yourself? They aren't ****ing trying to miss shots. They are trying to limit the number of possessions and they are playing their offense in a style that they think gives them the best chance to score. Which was heavy Lebron iso due to the Warriors playing single coverage most of the time in the first 3 games. In game 4 the Warriors played a more traditional style and the Cavs got great looks all game from 3...and just missed them. If they had made a lot more...the outcome of the game would have been different.

My god...look at the lengths you guys go to. You are now claiming making shots isn't important to winning basketball games. And trying to use a series that has seen the efficient team win 75% of the time.

It's not one or the other. You realize this...right? You can play slow and still not be horribly inefficient...you get this...please tell me you get this. And with Kyrie and Love...they could play the exact same offense in terms of pace...they'd just be infinitely better at it. And they'd be even better on the boards. They'd lose a marginal amount of defense...but not much...Kyrie guarded Curry very well in game 1 and they didn't help nearly as much because of that. Which is why Green/Klay/Barnes actually didn't get many good looks in game 1. It was game 2 they got good looks...and they just missed them.

The Cavs had the 3rd best offense this season...they played at one of the slowest paces in the league. Why on earth would they change that against a Warriors team they know it's even more important to play slow and in the half court against? Please give some type of reasonable logic here.

Would you like to bet on the game tonight? I'll take the most efficient team. You take the other team. Deal?

[DMAVS41]

And please stop acting like the Warriors didn't dictate exactly how the Cavs were playing on offense the entire time.

They wanted Lebron to go iso heavy the first 3 games, I thought it was a mistake to play game 3 that way actually, but that is what they wanted.

If you are going to single a superstar on offense....they are going to shoot a lot.

If you are going to hard double and help way more...they are going to pass a lot more.

Unless they are stupid of course.

It's always about making the best basketball play. Sometimes that is being more aggressive and taking a lot of shots...sometimes it isn't.

Lebron didn't make bad decisions in game 4...his teammates just missed wide open shot after wide open shot.

And for **** sake...the Cavs played a slow grind it out style on offense all year with Love and Kyrie. Stop acting like they wouldn't be aggressive and slow the game down. That is exactly what they ****ing did all year. With those guys...they've have the added bonus of putting the Warriors into even tougher defensive decisions and they'd eat them alive on the glass even more with Love out there.

There is no argument. It's about the dumbest thing anyone has ever uttered about the NBA.

[mehyaM24]

love is overrated, but even with kyrie, i can see why some would say these cavs matchup better with the warriors. their defense is better tbh, and they don't have the spacing issues the other 3 would.

cavs are in dire need of another playmaker though - that's where kyrie comes into action. if he were healthy it still wouldn't matter though. the warriors are just a much better team.

lebron is playing the goat all-around game, but his shooting has been disastrous. 47%TS :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

love is overrated, but even with kyrie, i can see why some would say these cavs matchup better with the warriors. their defense is better tbh, and they don't have the spacing issues the other 3 would.

cavs are in dire need of another playmaker though - that's where kyrie comes into action. if he were healthy it still wouldn't matter though. the warriors are just a much better team.

lebron is playing the goat all-around game, but his shooting has been disastrous. 47%TS :facepalm

I don't know if they'd win or not...and Lebron's awful shooting would be a problem on the Cavs regardless of Irving/Love out there.

But Lebron would be shooting much less...and the Cavs would still be playing at a snail pace like they did all year.

Their rebounding would improve with Love...

They'd actually have legs to play late in these games...

You see a marginal dip in defense...and to be honest...I'd probably lean towards Love/Kyrie making the Warriors work much harder on defense actually being more valuable than that marginal defensive improvement from playing Delly, Moz, and Thompson a bit more.


The Cavs win this series and it's one of the biggest upsets in NBA history.

They win if they were fully healthy? Nobody even blinks. All you'd have is people like tpols saying how unfair it is to have such a loaded team.

[DMAVS41]

As for pace. Take a look at this clowns:

Game 1: 87 (with Iriving)...ROFL...they played the slowest pace with the player you all claim would speed up the game

Game 2: 91

Game 3: 91

Game 4: 89


Why did they play the slowest pace of the series with the player you guys claim will force them to play faster?

It's because they could give even less attention to Lebron and they could iso him even more as doubling him with Kyrie out there makes life a whole lot more difficult.

[PsychoBe]

not having thompson give you 2-3 second chance points per possession, as well as drawing fouls for when he gets in good position to rebound would be a definite blow. there would be a lot more one-and-done's on the cavs end since love isn't the offensive rebounder that thompson is. nor is he the defender thompson is either. and cavs had irving in game 1 and still lost. yes he went down in a freak accident but the warriors still kept it close and that was before making of adjustment of taking bogut's fat butt out of the games and starting iggy so that their defensive rotations would be a lot sharper and it would help them spread the floor on offense.

the warriors small-ball line-up would expose any line-up the cavs would had played anyways, and irving would not had held curry to 3 points in a half like delly did. sorry, it just wouldn't have happened. and that game was still close regardless.

[Magic 32]

about to find out...

http://cavaliersnation.com/2015/06/14/cavs-news-tristan-thompson-expected-to-ask-for-max-contract/

[RedBlackAttack]

about to find out...

http://cavaliersnation.com/2015/06/14/cavs-news-tristan-thompson-expected-to-ask-for-max-contract/
I don't understand what your link has to do with the topic. The Cavs could very easily give Love and Tristan max contracts.

[Magic 32]

I don't understand what your link has to do with the topic. The Cavs could very easily give Love and Tristan max contracts.

and who would come of the bench?

[RedBlackAttack]

and who would come of the bench?
Tristan Thompson. Nothing has changed.

He's one of the best locker room guys in the league.

[Magic 32]

Tristan Thompson. Nothing has changed.

He's one of the best locker room guys in the league.

Near max to a bench player.

Sounds great.

[No_Look604]

Lebron is just an athlete. Kyrie is a BALLER.

Shame we have to witness all this Lebron ball because Kryie's out. Hard on the eyes.

Here's to Lebron hitting the side of the backboard again tonight in crunch time!

[RedBlackAttack]

Near max to a bench player.

Sounds great.
Yep. It does sound great.

[nba_55]

Hey Pointguard, what do you say now? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DMAVS41]

Hey Pointguard, what do you say now? :roll: :roll: :roll:


He'll avoid this like the plague now.

Jesus...the Cavs went small ball against them...with Curry lighting up Delly...and they were still only down 1 with 5 minutes to go. They did all the things PG said was impossible...and they were still right there with Delly out there getting shit on and not even being able to hit the rim like usual. Just awful...

Could you imagine having Irving out there for 40 minutes tonight? What that would have done?

And Love out there instead of Miller/Jones...helping on the glass and being able to draw bigs away from the basket if they are out there...or post up if necessary.

Want a crazy stat? Delly has 15 made baskets and 13 turnovers in the series.

ROFL...better with him than Love/Curry? Dumbest thing ever.

[navy]

Delly cant even dribble. Why on earth would people think they were better with him than Irving?

[DMAVS41]

Delly cant even dribble. Why on earth would people think they were better with him than Irving?

15 field goals....13 turnovers for the series.

And he's done no better on Curry than Irving did in game 1 now. And Irving actually makes the Warriors work on defense. When Delly touches the ball...the warriors pray he shoots or tries to do something.

All of this because Curry just missed a bunch of good shots for 6 straight qtrs.

[navy]

15 field goals....13 turnovers for the series.

And he's done no better on Curry than Irving did in game 1 now. And Irving actually makes the Warriors work on defense. When Delly touches the ball...the warriors pray he shoots or tries to do something.

All of this because Curry just missed a bunch of good shots for 6 straight qtrs.
If you consider he's an undrafted guy playing against the best defense in the league that's not that bad. He's been better than I thought he would be .This is a guy who could post a 0/0/0 statline and I wouldnt say anything.

But let's be honest. No disrespect. He's one of the worst point guards in the nba. As I type that I fully hope he drops 20 again.

[DMAVS41]

If you consider he's an undrafted guy playing against the best defense in the league that's not that bad. He's been better than I thought he would be .This is a guy who could post a 0/0/0 statline and I wouldnt say anything.

But let's be honest. No disrespect. He's one of the worst point guards in the nba. As I type that I fully hope he drops 20 again.

Oh no.

I like Delly. I think he's a solid back up type pg. Given the circumstances he's been great.

I'm merely talking about it in the sense of the claim that the Cavs are better off with Delly than Irving in this series. Of course, even then that isn't accurate.

Their argument is that the Cavs would rather have only Delly....than Irving and Delly.

It remains the single dumbest thing I've heard on here in roughly 5 years.

[SwishSquared]

I feel bad that DMAVS41 has had to endure such idiocy in this thread rofl. If people don't understand how adding 2 very gifted offensive players wouldn't help this Cavs team right now...

Also, do people realize Love and TT can/have/will play together? If/when Warriors go small (with Iggy/Barnes/Green frontline) against a healthy Cavs squad, that means that Barnes/Green would be defending TT/Love, meaning at least 1 Cleveland big would have an advantage down low to exploit. If Love's presence means the Dubs avoid super-smallball, that's an advantage to the Cavs still imo. Playing that small changed Game 4 entirely.

Like DMAVS41 said, if Cavs were fully healthy, we'd expect them to win the series, right? Without those 2 guys, we're saying that a Cavs victory in this series would be an ATG-type upset. If you can't comprehend the difference then this is hopeless...

Now, if people want to argue that the Cavs could make better use of the 2 max deals that they'd be paying Kyrie and Love next season, then sure, I can see that. To think they'd be playing worse with those guys in this series, compared to the current rotation, is laughable.

[DMAVS41]

I feel bad that DMAVS41 has had to endure such idiocy in this thread rofl. If people don't understand how adding 2 very gifted offensive players wouldn't help this Cavs team right now...

Also, do people realize Love and TT can/have/will play together? If/when Warriors go small (with Iggy/Barnes/Green frontline) against a healthy Cavs squad, that means that Barnes/Green would be defending TT/Love, meaning at least 1 Cleveland big would have an advantage down low to exploit.

Like DMAVS41 said, if Cavs were fully healthy, we'd expect them to win the series, right? Without those 2 guys, we're saying that a Cavs victory in this series would be an ATG-type upset. If you can't comprehend the difference then this is hopeless...

Now, if people want to argue that the Cavs could make better use of the 2 max deals that they'd be paying Kyrie and Love next season, then sure, I can see that. To think they'd be playing worse with those guys in this series, compared to the current rotation, is laughable.

I wouldn't "expect" them to win the series if healthy. I'd consider it a virtual toss up, but would probably still favor the Warriors mainly because of home court.

Or at least that is what I thought going in...after seeing Lebron do this to them....I guess I'd change my take a little.

Yes, it's been painful...however, the most absurd thing posted in this thread is getting overlooked.

Pointguard, in his first post in this thread, claimed that the Cavs would have lost to the Hawks if Kyrie and Love and Andy had all been 100%. I shit you not...go check the first page of the thread.

That is, hands down, the dumbest thing ever said on this forum. Nothing can top that.

[SwishSquared]

I wouldn't "expect" them to win the series if healthy. I'd consider it a virtual toss up, but would probably still favor the Warriors mainly because of home court.

Or at least that is what I thought going in...after seeing Lebron do this to them....I guess I'd change my take a little.

Yes, it's been painful...however, the most absurd thing posted in this thread is getting overlooked.

Pointguard, in his first post in this thread, claimed that the Cavs would have lost to the Hawks if Kyrie and Love and Andy had all been 100%. I shit you not...go check the first page of the thread.

That is, hands down, the dumbest thing ever said on this forum. Nothing can top that.:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: He actually said that hahahahaha. PG is one of the worst posters here. I remember when I first started posting here, I went down the rabbit hole of lunacy with him and it was a lost cause.

My bad if I put words in your mouth- I was browsing some pages of this thread cracking up and thought you posted something along the lines that the narrative would be CLE is so stacked (when healthy), that it's no shock that they could win the title.

I legit thought a healthy Cavs team would win vs. the Dubs, especially if they took Game 1 on the road (arbitrary I know, but I think if healthy they could have won all home games to win in 6). I mean, if LBJ can keep it this close for so long with this motley crew, I'd think they would have a better shot at closing out games with the offensive upgrades. Sure, the defense suffers. But I think GSW would tire more if they had to guard legit offensive weapons more often, which would slow down their offense some.

[KungFuJoe]

Cleveland is better with Kyrie and Love but they'd still get beat.

They are doing well now because they're slowing the game up and not letting GS play to their fast pace. Also TT is a monster on the boards and Delly plays tougher D than Kyrie.

With Kyrie and Love in, Cleveland has more O but less D and plays more to GS's liking. Kyrie would push the ball and who's Love going to guard? Lee would probably score twenty on him.

[DMAVS41]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: He actually said that hahahahaha. PG is one of the worst posters here. I remember when I first started posting here, I went down the rabbit hole of lunacy with him and it was a lost cause.

My bad if I put words in your mouth- I was browsing some pages of this thread cracking up and thought you posted something along the lines that the narrative would be CLE is so stacked (when healthy), that it's no shock that they could win the title.

I legit thought a healthy Cavs team would win vs. the Dubs, especially if they took Game 1 on the road (arbitrary I know, but I think if healthy they could have won all home games to win in 6). I mean, if LBJ can keep it this close for so long with this motley crew, I'd think they would have a better shot at closing out games with the offensive upgrades. Sure, the defense suffers. But I think GSW would tire more if they had to guard legit offensive weapons more often, which would slow down their offense some.

For sure.

After seeing what Lebron can do to these guys...I'd favor the Cavs now in a series if both teams are healthy.

Good point about tiring the Warriors out...Curry doesn't have to guard anyone. In fact, they don't have to guard anyone other than Lebron...and they have to box out Thompson. That's really it.

It's just stupid. It's all based on a game in which Curry just missed a ton of good shots...game 2. The Warriors just missed a bunch of good shots in game 2 and 3...and Barnes/Green/Curry played like ass.

That is why people don't understand how stupid it is to go on hard on Blatt for not playing Mozgov. If you play him and Thompson together and go big...you just won't be scoring well enough to win games unless the Warriors are playing horrible offensive basketball and missing open shots.

Blatt saw the writing on the wall in game 4...and then saw it again in game 5. I applaud him for having the balls to make that move. And with Kyrie/Love...the Warriors simply don't have a big advantage at going small.

Lebron can just iso wing post...and if they double or bring help. Kyrie and Love being elite 3 point shooters and great offensive players basically makes that unit impossible to stop.

Think about it...Iriving running iso and bombing threes and spotting up, Love being a beast on the glass with excellent range and a post game to make single coverage pay, Thompson attacking the glass, another shooter.

That lineup would be causing a ton of issues for the Warriors.

[SwishSquared]

Cleveland is better with Kyrie and Love but they'd still get beat.

They are doing well now because they're slowing the game up and not letting GS play to their fast pace. Also TT is a monster on the boards and Delly plays tougher D than Kyrie.

With Kyrie and Love in, Cleveland has more O but less D and plays more to GS's liking. Kyrie would push the ball and who's Love going to guard? Lee would probably score twenty on him.Please refer to DMAVS41's posts in this thread. Cavs played at a slow pace with both Kyrie and Love in the lineup. The efficiency of the offense should increase with the upgrade in talent and having LBJ take fewer shots. LeBron's looks would improve in quality with the extra floor spacing, also.

[DMAVS41]

Cleveland is better with Kyrie and Love but they'd still get beat.

They are doing well now because they're slowing the game up and not letting GS play to their fast pace. Also TT is a monster on the boards and Delly plays tougher D than Kyrie.

With Kyrie and Love in, Cleveland has more O but less D and plays more to GS's liking. Kyrie would push the ball and who's Love going to guard? Lee would probably score twenty on him.

Kyrie doesn't push the ball much though. The Cavs played at a very slow pace all year....and that would continue here.

I keep hearing this reasoning, but it's just false.

Not only did the Cavs play slow all year with Kyrie, but in game 1...the game Kyrie played....it was played at the slowest pace of the series.

Also, Thompson would be playing at minimum....30 minutes a game in this series regardless of Love or not.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Kyrie doesn't push the ball much though. The Cavs played at a very slow pace all year....and that would continue here.

I keep hearing this reasoning, but it's just false.

Not only did the Cavs play slow all year with Kyrie, but in game 1...the game Kyrie played....it was played at the slowest pace of the series.

Also, Thompson would be playing at minimum....30 minutes a game in this series regardless of Love or not.
I think people are confusing fast/flashy handles with fast pace.

And they keep ignoring the work that Kyrie would make Curry do on the defense end.

[SwishSquared]

For sure.

After seeing what Lebron can do to these guys...I'd favor the Cavs now in a series if both teams are healthy.

Good point about tiring the Warriors out...Curry doesn't have to guard anyone. In fact, they don't have to guard anyone other than Lebron...and they have to box out Thompson. That's really it.

It's just stupid. It's all based on a game in which Curry just missed a ton of good shots...game 2. The Warriors just missed a bunch of good shots in game 2 and 3...and Barnes/Green/Curry played like ass.

That is why people don't understand how stupid it is to go on hard on Blatt for not playing Mozgov. If you play him and Thompson together and go big...you just won't be scoring well enough to win games unless the Warriors are playing horrible offensive basketball and missing open shots.

Blatt saw the writing on the wall in game 4...and then saw it again in game 5. I applaud him for having the balls to make that move. And with Kyrie/Love...the Warriors simply don't have a big advantage at going small.

Lebron can just iso wing post...and if they double or bring help. Kyrie and Love being elite 3 point shooters and great offensive players basically makes that unit impossible to stop.

Think about it...Iriving running iso and bombing threes and spotting up, Love being a beast on the glass with excellent range and a post game to make single coverage pay, Thompson attacking the glass, another shooter.

That lineup would be causing a ton of issues for the Warriors.I agree man- Kyrie and Love on the floor make this Cavs offense awfully difficult to defend. I mean Kyrie-Smith-LBJ-Love-Mozgov had the best 5 man net rating in the whole league right? I think swapping Shumpert for Smith and going with either Mozgov/TT changes the whole outcome of the series. As much as people want to say Curry cooked Kyrie, a hobbled Irving took it to the Dubs, too. Delly has played well, based on my expectations anyway, but it's stupid to think Kyrie's not a massive upgrade.

Also, Blatt deserves massive credit for his coaching these playoffs. I know some will say Lue or LBJ or others should get the credit, but he's sharp defensive coach and he knows the matchups, as you said.

The Warriors' most explosive lineup is going supersmall, and Kyrie/Love nullify it. Who provides rim protection when Irving & LBJ drive? Love can find open guys out of double teams in the post. Cleveland would be much more efficient with those guys.

This reminds me of your posts in the thread about GSW being an ATG team. The Dubs played terribly for a couple games, and some of it may be due to mental letdown of facing a depleted Cavs team, unexpected injuries, being unready for extra length defensively, or taking time to adjust to this big of a stage. People overreacted to games that deviated from the mean.

[Pointguard]

He'll avoid this like the plague now.

Jesus...the Cavs went small ball against them...with Curry lighting up Delly...and they were still only down 1 with 5 minutes to go. They did all the things PG said was impossible...and they were still right there with Delly out there getting shit on and not even being able to hit the rim like usual. Just awful...

What did I say that was wrong??? They applied pressure and hung out. Delly got tired and was lit up - the pressure valve that I referred to several times. Iggy's leadership at the end was the difference. Barbosa's aggression also triggered them. Curry isn't going to be contained the whole series.


Could you imagine having Irving out there for 40 minutes tonight? What that would have done?
The pressure valve? If Golden State gets hot because of weak pressure only a complete idiot would think this is lasting anytime. What is so hard to understand. Cleveland can win if they stay on the pressure. They don't otherwise.


And Love out there instead of Miller/Jones...helping on the glass and being able to draw bigs away from the basket if they are out there...or post up if necessary.
Love would have meant a lot in today's but the game would be played very different because the players are getting tired. The coach is wild in going like this but games right now teams are adapting to the others weaknesses. GS is so good defensively that they don't have to double and rarely do. They are just missing.


Want a crazy stat? Delly has 15 made baskets and 13 turnovers in the series.

ROFL...better with him than Love/Curry? Dumbest thing ever.
Do you even know what the topic is? You have short term memory problems.

[DonDadda59]

The Cavs winning the all time worst conference in NBA History fooled a lot of people. Of course they're not better without Kyrie/Love. They just didn't need them to sweep the garbage that was the Hawks. I still have no clue how that squad of role players won 60.

Put this Cavs team as presently constructed in the West for a whole season, they struggle to make the playoffs and if they did, they'd get bounced in the first round.

[RedBlackAttack]

It seems to me that Pointguard is going to keep the idiocy going as long as he has an audience. I recommend that people stop responding. It is pointless.

[J Shuttlesworth]

The Cavs winning the all time worst conference in NBA History fooled a lot of people. Of course they're not better without Kyrie/Love. They just didn't need them to sweep the garbage that was the Hawks. I still have no clue how that squad of role players won 60.

Put this Cavs team as presently constructed in the West for a whole season, they struggle to make the playoffs and if they did, they'd get bounced in the first round.
I know people have been giving the East shit all year long... but...

I feel like the Cavs are giving the Warriors the most resistance of any team that the Warriors have faced... and this is without Kyrie/Love. I think they've legit earned the respect of being the 2nd best team in the league, and arguably best if fully healthy.

[RedBlackAttack]

The Cavs winning the all time worst conference in NBA History fooled a lot of people. Of course they're not better without Kyrie/Love. They just didn't need them to sweep the garbage that was the Hawks. I still have no clue how that squad of role players won 60.

Put this Cavs team as presently constructed in the West for a whole season, they struggle to make the playoffs and if they did, they'd get bounced in the first round.
"As presently constructed," you mean with Irving, Love and Varejao out right? If so, I'd probably agree. Although LeBron is great enough to drag this team to the playoffs.

And, this series has been way too close if you're Golden State. Make fun of the cast all you want, but it is still just 3-2 with one of those losses coming in OT and tonight's game being extremely close for 3 1/2 quarters. If this is supposed to be the creme de la creme of the WC, mark me down as unimpressed thus far.

Btw, there's no way we beat Chicago without Kyrie. And we're currently 2-2 without him in this series, so I think we should slow down on the "East is crap" stuff. If anything, this Finals has proven that to be an overstatement.

[KungFuJoe]

Kyrie doesn't push the ball much though. The Cavs played at a very slow pace all year....and that would continue here.

I keep hearing this reasoning, but it's just false.

Not only did the Cavs play slow all year with Kyrie, but in game 1...the game Kyrie played....it was played at the slowest pace of the series.

Also, Thompson would be playing at minimum....30 minutes a game in this series regardless of Love or not.

I'll concede the pace...but I don't think they make much of an impact. I think Love hurts more than helps this team against GS...mainly because of how much of a pest TT has been. He is literally out rebounding the entire GS team by himself at times. And play really really good D...even on perimeter players. Love would be like a slightly rich man's Lee out there and I think, even if he was healthy, that his role would have been severely diminished once it was discovered that he couldn't guard anyone.

And they already lost Game 1 with a mostly healthy Irving.

I think this would be a closely fought series no matter what.

Look on the flip side. Everyone was saying that Bogut was the heart and soul of the Warriors team...that they would never get anywhere without him. And they are about to win this series with him barely playing.

It's like boxing...styles make fights...and I just don't think Kyrie and Love (especially Love) would have been the difference maker. GS is just a better team overall. Too deep and defense too good...and that's what wins championships. One guy, by himself, even Lebron...doesn't do it.

Even when Miami was winning, guys like Chalmers and Allen stepped up big time.

[DonDadda59]

"As presently constructed," you mean with Irving, Love and Varejao out right? If so, I'd probably agree. Although LeBron is great enough to drag this team to the playoffs.

And, this series has been way too close if you're Golden State. Make fun of the cast all you want, but it is still just 3-2 with one of those losses coming in OT and tonight's game being extremely close for 3 1/2 quarters. If this is supposed to be the creme de la creme of the WC, mark me down as unimpressed thus far.

Btw, there's no way we beat Chicago without Kyrie. And we're currently 2-2 without him in this series, so I think we should slow down on the "East is crap" stuff. If anything, this Finals has proven that to be an overstatement.

GS has been underwhelming. But I'm not surprised by that. They're a jump shooting team, if they're shots aren't falling... they don't really have much else. But when they're on, like they were the past 2 second halves/4th quarters... really tough out.

The Cavs have given all they can. A lot of role players are being asked to do things they are not accustomed to. A guy like Delly expects to play a few minutes, relieve Kyrie. But he's been asked to be the primary defender on the reigning MVP while providing the team with offense. I think he's gone above and beyond although he's come down to Earth some. Put his body on the line, same with Thompson, Mosgov.

Just too much of a talent discrepancy to overcome.

But yeah, all that all time great team talk some threw around about GSW is really way off base. They're a very good team taking advantage of a down time for the league. They really should be embarrassed that this is actually a series.

[Pointguard]

But the Warriors haven't been efficient in their losses....it just doesn't count for the Cavs you idiot. It goes both ways. If the Warriors make their shots like they normally do...this series is over.

:roll: :roll: :roll:
You absolutely have no concept of defense and what it does. First, its only you that has been talking about slowing the game down as defense. Its actually controlling the pace. Its not all defense. I never harped on that. The intense defense has taken the most efficient team in the league and made them look far worse than any other team has done in the post season.

Please don't tell me that your dumb azz doesn't know what I'm talking about. Defense makes teams miss. You absolutely, don't have a clue. Your statement above is something a four year old would say.



Curry had his worst shooting stretch of the season in games 2 and 3 when he had a 6 qtr run of 6 of 29 shooting.

The more efficient team has won 3 of the 4 games. And the only game that didn't happen was when Curry shot 5 of 23...hardly an argument that efficiency doesn't matter.

That didn't matter?

Take the ****ing L

It's playing out in front of us? What? It's the exact opposite. The more efficient team has won 3 of the 4 games and the one lone win was a game in which Curry had the worst shooting game of his career iirc. Yep....and you are so dumb you actually think this series is in your favor. Epic stupidity.
Really who is the more efficient team overall? My statements have been very clear. How do you beat a more efficient and more talented team? With AGGRESSSION. Get them out of their game with pressure. I said this at least twice yesterday and numerous more times to you before. Go to a doctor, your short term memory is horrendous. Or are you drunk all the time???

Do you really think you are making a point by changing your team everyday to prove the more efficient team is a premise to say efficiency. And you do this without a concept of defense beyond they slow the pace down? That's only a small part of a concept I used in other threads but its never supposed to be used as alone like your family inheritance has been showing itself.

[Pointguard]

It seems to me that Pointguard is going to keep the idiocy going as long as he has an audience. I recommend that people stop responding. It is pointless.

Why do you think you are smarter than other people? You apparently think you are the smartest guy here, as per your recommendations, and you left the thread once debates picked up and haven't contributed. Don't you think people would respect you and your position more if you show and prove. People share and contribute on message boards. Its not all about you and likely never will be.

[RedBlackAttack]

Why do you think you are smarter than other people? You apparently think you are the smartest guy here, as per your recommendations, and you left the thread once debates picked up and haven't contributed. Don't you think people would respect you and your position more if you show and prove. People share and contribute on message boards. Its not all about you and likely never will be.
I don't debate things that aren't worth debating. I will, however, give recommendations to fellow posters from time to time when they express being at their wits end due to a particularly dumbfounding and exhausting back-and-forth.

I thought this qualified, so I gave my two cents. Feel free to continue writing novels as to why the Cavaliers are a tougher out with Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love and Anderson Varejao watching in street clothes, though.

No one's stopping you. As for me being smart, that is for others to gauge. I will say that I know the Cleveland Cavaliers very well and I'm confident sharing my knowledge of them with anyone. I've been watching guys like Delly and Tristan and Kyrie for years, not just days/weeks/months.

This just happens to be one of those times where the topic doesn't warrant the time I'd need to invest.

[catch24]

The Cavs playing the Warriors tougher than they would with Kyrie and Love isn't all that far-fetched. As I said previously, they gain a lot of offense, but still get worse defensively.

And I'm taking the Warriors offense every time.

[Pointguard]

I don't debate things that aren't worth debating. I will, however, give recommendations to fellow posters from time to time when they express being at their wits end due to a particularly dumbfounding and exhausting back-and-forth.
I never seen that. And you singled me out when Dmavs is the instigator, a guy that many other posters have complained about his circuitous routes. and starts insulting people all the time. So do you want to explain that to me? We all have different opinions. You definitely have a slant here.


I thought this qualified, so I gave my two cents. Feel free to continue writing novels as to why the Cavaliers are a tougher out with Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love and Anderson Varejao watching in street clothes, though.
All I'm asking is that you be fair. What ever I say I back up. Don't call it idiocy if I can do it and others can't or don't. If we go around calling the guy who cares enough to back up what he says names, what are you inviting? Think about it.


No one's stopping you. As for me being smart, that is for others to gauge. I will say that I know the Cleveland Cavaliers very well and I'm confident sharing my knowledge of them with anyone. I've been watching guys like Delly and Tristan and Kyrie for years, not just days/weeks/months.

This just happens to be one of those times where the topic doesn't warrant the time I'd need to invest.
That's fine. I'm not asking you to stay. There are people that can watch for years and not necessarily have insight. I played, I coached, I teach basketball. Those dimensions are different but doesn't make me superior either. I always talk concepts, principles and ideas that are not just relevant to basketball. That cup of soup doesn't work for everybody and I don't think I'm the smartest person either.

[Pointguard]

The Cavs playing the Warriors tougher than they would with Kyrie and Love isn't all that far-fetched. As I said previously, they gain a lot of offense, but still get worse defensively.

And I'm taking the Warriors offense every time.
Yes, not everybody is for everyteam. And when the team is new, young and inexperienced, distractions are amplified because of identity.

[DMAVS41]

Take the L

[Pointguard]

Take the L
:lol Trust me I LAUGH at you every chance I get. I absolutely love it when you come in all inflated and then plop, ffffzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzip.

[Pointguard]

. I remember when I first started posting here, I went down the rabbit hole of lunacy with him and it was a lost cause.

:lol
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9850345&postcount=95

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9851428&postcount=104

Its sad, really sad. That was our first exchange. Still hurts, huh.

[DMAVS41]

:lol Trust me I LAUGH at you every chance I get. I absolutely love it when you come in all inflated and then plop, ffffzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzip.

I just feel bad for you man.

You think you know the game, but you don't. Delly is now getting carved up in this series... and that is with a ton of help.

The Cavs have actually played faster every game since Kyrie got hurt.

They went small last night and did the exact stuff you claimed was impossible.

You should just take the L and go...

But you won't...

Do you understand what smart people within the basketball world would say if you told them you think the Cavs would have lost to the Hawks if they had Love and Irving healthy????

You are stupid and ignorant... A bad combination

Sorry this all stings, but you asked for it

[Pointguard]

I just feel bad for you man.

You think you know the game, but you don't.
I played organized ball, I played with pro's, I coach and I teach. You read stats.


Delly is now getting carved up in this series... and that is with a ton of help.

Sure he got tired and they will lose unless he can get back to his octane level.


The Cavs have actually played faster every game since Kyrie got hurt. This is the fourth time I am saying THIS, this is YOUR argument! I never brought that concept up except to say its yours. I brought it up months ago with different teams but not here. You are actually arguing with yourself here. Or it might be something TPOL's said. But that was never my argument here.

When I talk about defense in this series I am talking about the intensity and how pressure has affected GS much more than the other teams out West.


They went small last night and did the exact stuff you claimed was impossible.

Not me again. I never said anything about small ball at all??? I never said anything was impossible - I never do that either. ???



You should just take the L and go...

But you won't...

Do you understand what smart people within the basketball world would say if you told them you think the Cavs would have lost to the Hawks if they had Love and Irving healthy????

You are stupid and ignorant... A bad combination <---When failing is a habit

Sorry this all stings, but you asked for it

Trust me, I am much more concerned about your health. You have gotten discombobulated before but not to this extent. Both of those things I never brought up and one of them I emphasized to other posters that it was your contribution (the pace talk) numerous times.

Are you watching your sugar levels?

My points are simple.

1. Not every player is for every team especially inexperienced teams with young talent. New talented teammates will most likely get in each other's way the first year - I sited nearly every major player the last 7 years: Kobe, Paul, Mello, Lebron, Wade, Rose, Harden, Blake and Howard. The rule of thumb is that super talent on top of super talent usually takes time to mesh even among experienced players unless its primarily a defensive team with seasoned vets. Brook and Durant have been together 5 years now.

2.Pressure defense that gets under a team that hasn't been subject to it, is a way to undermine an inexperienced team like GS that shoots well. You aren't going to outduel GS in points because they shoot better, get easier baskets, have more offensive players, catch a grove quicker, are more versatile, are more creative than any other team.

3.GS had Curry wondering about his shot and he might not be a leader type which is what a young team needs when its in new turf with pressure on them. But pressure that makes a team freak is the only to beat a more efficient, very good defensive team.

That's all the handle you need to combat what I was saying. You weirdly enough brought up two things that I had nothing to do with.

[DMAVS41]

Your points fail on all fronts though. They don't make sense.

1. This is called a red herring. The argument isn't whether they'd win for sure, its about having a better chance. The Cavs proved since the trade that they were elite when healthy. They aren't just a big 3... Like at all. It's one of the best constructed rosters top to bottom in recent memory. Everyone on the team compliments each other well.

2. Pressure defense can be great, but the Warriors are too good to be legit bothered by it for a series. Again, they just missed great shots in games 2 and 3. Also, intense defense burns through stamina very quickly.... It's not sustainable at all for more than a game or 2.... Just like we all said and have now seen. Also, Irving played very intense defense on Curry and needed less help than Delly does.

3. Total bullshit. Just no. Curry did not lose confidence in his ability or leadership. Nonsense. Even if that were true, and it isn't, you have no reason to believe not having Irving and Love is the reason for it.




Now I'd like you to do something.... Go ask everyone in the world that you know that knows basketball.., ask them if they think the Cavs would have lost to the Hawks with Kyrie and Love healthy.

Words can't describe how stupid that is.


Guess what. I played and coached as well... Sorry. And I've never heard anyone ever say something as stupid as the two things you've said here. I thought at first you were just trolling, but you clearly aren't. You actually think a team that easily swept another would lose the same series of they added 2 top 20 players in the league that fit in perfectly. You actually believe that.... and it makes me sad there are people as dumb as you out in the world.

[Pointguard]

Your points fail on all fronts though. They don't make sense.

1. This is called a red herring. The argument isn't whether they'd win for sure, its about having a better chance. The Cavs proved since the trade that they were elite when healthy. They aren't just a big 3... Like at all. It's one of the best constructed rosters top to bottom in recent memory. Everyone on the team compliments each other well.

I never said anything about winning for sure. ? . When Love went down few Cav's fans were really stressed out. Talk was that he was leaving because he doesn't really fit in. The vast majority of the board was sure it was going to be one of three teams out West that was going to win when all three were healthy. I never heard you say they were likely to win. The elite are the ones likely to win it all: SA, Clippers, GS. And the Cavs were a new team? Show me the new team that won the first year together that wasn't built on defense. That was the key point of the whole paragraph.


2. Pressure defense can be great, but the Warriors are too good to be legit bothered by it for a series. Again, they just missed great shots in games 2 and 3. Also, intense defense burns through stamina very quickly.... It's not sustainable at all for more than a game or 2.... Just like we all said and have now seen. Also, Irving played very intense defense on Curry and needed less help than Delly does.
I can name you six teams I seen pressure defense from for a whole playoff championship runs. Objection over-ruled. Warriors are not too good to be bothered by it either. It bothered greater, teams with superior leaders and longer term veteran teammates. Its bothered every great player I ever seen - even the great fearless one Jordan, much less an inexperienced team that's never won it all. Are you serious?

But I will argue that Dova isn't used to big minutes so it wasn't likely to happen for a long period of time. Irving isn't used to playing defense like he did the first game, even in college when the defense got more aggressive I didn't see him anymore. Humans are a creature of habit.


3. Total bullshit. Just no. Curry did not lose confidence in his ability or leadership. Nonsense. Even if that were true, and it isn't, you have no reason to believe not having Irving and Love is the reason for it.

You have like zero ability in recognizing social realities. You just suck at it because when I was telling you something was wrong with Howard you said I was imagining it. To most people it was obvious that Curry wasn't himself til game 5. He was very obviously a bit more contained. You are a stat geek and obviously not very social. Once again the key point was missed by you. Delly came in as a role player, to get gritty on Curry. And it worked for four games.



Now I'd like you to do something.... Go ask everyone in the world that you know that knows basketball.., ask them if they think the Cavs would have lost to the Hawks with Kyrie and Love healthy.
Sorry, I'm not going there with you because you have a very serious focus problem and always in dire need of an outlet to escape and change the course when you are losing. Its my barometer of knowing I'm whooping you azz. Stay the course and fight the fight in front of you and maybe later we will deal with me suckering you into this fight with the Atlanta statement.


Lebron's offense, outside of game 1, is killing the Cavs. Aggressive or not...it's been dreadful
Here is a guy beating a team, that had the best offense and best defense in the league with depleted talent and your limitations can only come up with this. If you had a TV or was social enough to have friends with ones - you would have seen the marvel at Lebron's play.

[sfballa13]

Must be nice for Curry

1st round - Holiday hurt

2nd round - Conley hurt

3rd round - Beverley hurt

Finals - Irving hurt

Easiest path to the finals for a PG in the history of the NBA

He faced back up PG the entire farxin Finals and its still only 3-2 what a joke

[DMAVS41]

You just blatantly contradicted yourself.

You just said Lebron is out there playing with depleted talent... Which is true of course, but you have been saying they are better with that depleted talent.

Can't have this both ways moron. You can't say they are better and worse at the same time.


Also, I do marvel at Lebrons overall play.

What I don't marvel at is his horribly inefficient offense in games 2, 3, and 4.


Lastly, the biggest part of our arguments have been the lack of sustainability of the depleted Cavs.... And you just admitted it wouldn't last throughout the series. Again you can't say they are better off without love/Kyrie and then turn around and say the Cavs current style wouldn't remain effective past a couple games. That is our argument.

I'll leave you to this. I won't respond again. Logic and reason have failed with you and you really need to take a long hard look at your epistemology.

[SwishSquared]

:lol
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9850345&postcount=95

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9851428&postcount=104

Its sad, really sad. That was our first exchange. Still hurts, huh.Didn't hurt then, doesn't hurt now. Won't ever hurt. I'm shocked you took the time to find those posts. You have that much time? I remember there being a disagreement in opinion and you got mad that others sided against your opinion.

You are free to think however you want about ball. You obviously love the game and have spent lots of time dedicated to it. Just don't grow incredulous when people disagree with you. Like I said in the post you linked, have a good day, man.

I'm not posting in this thread again, so it's not worth your time to respond to this post, unless you must have the last word. Just wanted to post back 1 more time to reiterate what I've told you in the past. At the end of the day, we're discussing grown men playing a game. It's not *that* serious...

[navy]

Why do people act like Love,Thompson,Delly and Irving cant all play on the court at the same time?

[nba_55]

It seems to me that Pointguard is going to keep the idiocy going as long as he has an audience. I recommend that people stop responding. It is pointless.

This!

[Real14]

Is the OP serious?

[Pointguard]

You just blatantly contradicted yourself.

You just said Lebron is out there playing with depleted talent... Which is true of course, but you have been saying they are better with that depleted talent.
They play within a winning context better. How can you not see this is the point of the whole thread??? The talent doesn't get better without Kyrie and Love, obviously, but it forces the team to play a pressure defensive game as opposed to thinking they can out score them.

??? Its really late to just getting around to understanding this.


Can't have this both ways moron. You can't say they are better and worse at the same time.

:lol One is a concept on how they play, the other is about the talent they have. Why in the world would they not be able to co-exist?

Once again your limited thinking is amusing. Your arrogance, hilarious. Your understanding of the game... putrid.




I'll leave you to this. I won't respond again. Logic and reason have failed with you and you really need to take a long hard look at your epistemology.
You can't read dude. You didn't know I was talking about a concept the whole time. Pressure defense as the primary effort against a team that will beat any team offensively.

[Pointguard]

This!
I totally killed that little party didn't I.

[Pointguard]

Didn't hurt then, doesn't hurt now. Won't ever hurt. I'm shocked you took the time to find those posts. You have that much time? I remember there being a disagreement in opinion and you got mad that others sided against your opinion.
I saw that you mentioned us and I googled it. It's 2015. I know it hurt by your energy in this thread, otherwise I wouldn't have googled it. That was some time ago. Its obvious it hurt.


You are free to think however you want about ball. You obviously love the game and have spent lots of time dedicated to it. Just don't grow incredulous when people disagree with you. Like I said in the post you linked, have a good day, man.
I came in this post and you were acting foul and with a very definite energy toward me. It wasn't me coming at you. Both times I was in a situation with Dmavs and its you starting with me. You would be hard pressed to see a thread in which I started with Dmavs. You were acting a total fool a page or two back. And now you want it to end after a couple of cheap shots you initiated. Good bye punk, and next time I won't be so nice. Nothing better than deflating a puffed up coward.

[Legends66NBA7]

ISH has failed.

[DMAVS41]

Ugh... He's still saying they are better. Hahahaha.

[brownmamba00]

I think they need to keep giving TT the minutes he got all PO's...If I was CLE i'd let Love walk but that obviously not gonna happen.

they need to sign a good 3&D guy for the 2 guard position and just be healthy next year they could win it if things fall in to place.

[NumberSix]

I think they need to keep giving TT the minutes he got all PO's...If I was CLE i'd let Love walk but that obviously not gonna happen.

they need to sign a good 3&D guy for the 2 guard position and just be healthy next year they could win it if things fall in to place.
No, if you have to chose, you easily let Thompson walk. Dudes offensive game is weak. He can rebound, but love is still a better rebounder and a better scorer and playmaker.

[Jailblazers7]

No, if you have to chose, you easily let Thompson walk. Dudes offensive game is weak. He can rebound, but love is still a better rebounder and a better scorer and playmaker.

Yeah, this isn't the first time we've seen a hustle player look better than he really is playing alongside Lebron. It is endlessly frustrating to see TT **** up a lay-up because he seems incapable of extending his arms fully.

[r15mohd]

i do agree #6 in that Love is the better choice but they're going to lock TT in...Lebron is vetting him hard, so Gilbert's hand is tied on it already.

with him being healthy, and a front court attack of TT/Love/LBJ...would be a bit of a scare for small ball play

[brownmamba00]

No, if you have to chose, you easily let Thompson walk. Dudes offensive game is weak. He can rebound, but love is still a better rebounder and a better scorer and playmaker.
Thompson is just more tenacious and agressive than Love IMO

he broke out in that ATL series hope they keep developing him he'll need minutes on that stacked front court of Cleveland next season.

[Pointguard]

They should try to get a shooter and whoever (TT, Love) will settle for less money, go with them. The East is a grind and Love just might have trouble with that type of game. On most teams Love is a better player - not so sure here. I don't have either as a max player right now. I would totally base that on one more year. But the Cavs do need shooting.

[RedBlackAttack]

I think they need to keep giving TT the minutes he got all PO's...If I was CLE i'd let Love walk but that obviously not gonna happen.

they need to sign a good 3&D guy for the 2 guard position and just be healthy next year they could win it if things fall in to place.
Love and Tristan were great playing together all season. I think that's the point a lot of people are missing. So, in the Finals when the Cavs played lineups that included James Jones and Tristan in the frontcourt -- which they would have done more of if Jones could have handled it -- Love would have been in Jones' spot. Think about that.

The Cavs had a ridiculous offensive and defensive rating with that lineup all year.

Additionally, as much sh!t as he got, Love was one of only a couple players in the league who averaged 16/10. They're a good match because Love is probably the most versatile offensive bigs in the league and Tristan is one of the most versatile defensive bigs... while both are elite rebounders.


As for 3&D guys, the Shumpert/Smith combo was very good until all the injuries forced them to he more than that. Even before then, Shump was having a really good playoffs until he injured his shoulder a couple games into the Finals. The last few games he was a shell of himself. JR is great as a 4th or 5th option, but terrible as a 2nd or 3rd option. Hopefully, with Kyrie and Love back, he will never be a top three option on this team again. His defense can also be good when he is focused.

I don't really think the Cavs "need" to do anything to make another, more serious run at the title, except get healthy.

Here is our lineup next year assuming everyone is re-signed:

PG: Kyrie Irving / Matthew Dellavedova
SG: Iman Shumpert / JR Smith
SF: LeBron James / James Jones
PF: Kevin Love / Tristan Thompson
C: Timofey Mozgov / Anderson Varejao

There are a couple backup spots that could use upgrades. Maybe a scoring PG off the bench to help mask some of Delly's limitations and a legit backup SF for LeBron. But, I don't see any serious holes if that team is healthy.

That frontcourt is crazy versatile especially when you consider LeBron plays a lot at the 4 and the rebounding with Tristan, Varejao, Love and Mozgov is insane. Varejao and Tristan might be the two best offensive rebounders in the league not including Drummond.

[DMAVS41]

Love and Tristan were great playing together all season. I think that's the point a lot of people are missing. So, in the Finals when the Cavs played lineups that included James Jones and Tristan in the frontcourt -- which they would have done more of if Jones could have handled it -- Love would have been in Jones' spot. Think about that.

The Cavs had a ridiculous offensive and defensive rating with that lineup all year.

Additionally, as much sh!t as he got, Love was one of only a couple players in the league who averaged 16/10. They're a good match because Love is probably the most versatile offensive bigs in the league and Tristan is one of the most versatile defensive bigs... while both are elite rebounders.


As for 3&D guys, the Shumpert/Smith combo was very good until all the injuries forced them to he more than that. Even before then, Shump was having a really good playoffs until he injured his shoulder a couple games into the Finals. The last few games he was a shell of himself. JR is great as a 4th or 5th option, but terrible as a 2nd or 3rd option. Hopefully, with Kyrie and Love back, he will never be a top three option on this team again. His defense can also be good when he is focused.

I don't really think the Cavs "need" to do anything to make another, more serious run at the title, except get healthy.

Here is our lineup next year assuming everyone is re-signed:

PG: Kyrie Irving / Matthew Dellavedova
SG: Iman Shumpert / JR Smith
SF: LeBron James / James Jones
PF: Kevin Love / Tristan Thompson
C: Timofey Mozgov / Anderson Varejao

There are a couple backup spots that could use upgrades. Maybe a scoring PG off the bench to help mask some of Delly's limitations and a legit backup SF for LeBron. But, I don't see any serious holes if that team is healthy.

That frontcourt is crazy versatile especially when you consider LeBron plays a lot at the 4 and the rebounding with Tristan, Varejao, Love and Mozgov is insane. Varejao and Tristan might be the two best offensive rebounders in the league not including Drummond.

They only need health. They have the best roster in the league if healthy.

[RedBlackAttack]

They only need health. They have the best roster in the league if healthy.
I agree, but I will say that the amount of wear LeBron sustained in these playoffs is worrisome. We all know he is a borderline cyborg, but to carry that much weight for the last two rounds combined with five straight seasons of playing basically the max number of games/minutes... at some point it has to take a toll. I'd give him a month-long vacation at some point this coming season.

Start the year on a good note as opposed to last year and then let him gear down for awhile. They should also closely monitor Kyrie's minutes. He played the 4th most minutes per game in the league (higher than LeBron's MPG) and he played in 75 of 82 games. With as much pounding as he takes going to the basket and bouncing/cutting around all those trees... too many minutes. He should be played the way the Warriors do with Curry, who played the 42nd ranked MPG in the league (the highest ranked Warrior).

The good news is that we have found an identity, so I seriously doubt we are going to start the season 19-20. Because of that rough start, we were chasing the 2nd seed all year and that meant playing our big guns more than they should have. I'm guessing things will go more smoothly next year.

[nba_55]

This thread shows how clueless some the members in this forum are.

[nba_55]

Love and Tristan were great playing together all season. I think that's the point a lot of people are missing. So, in the Finals when the Cavs played lineups that included James Jones and Tristan in the frontcourt -- which they would have done more of if Jones could have handled it -- Love would have been in Jones' spot. Think about that.

The Cavs had a ridiculous offensive and defensive rating with that lineup all year.

Additionally, as much sh!t as he got, Love was one of only a couple players in the league who averaged 16/10. They're a good match because Love is probably the most versatile offensive bigs in the league and Tristan is one of the most versatile defensive bigs... while both are elite rebounders.


As for 3&D guys, the Shumpert/Smith combo was very good until all the injuries forced them to he more than that. Even before then, Shump was having a really good playoffs until he injured his shoulder a couple games into the Finals. The last few games he was a shell of himself. JR is great as a 4th or 5th option, but terrible as a 2nd or 3rd option. Hopefully, with Kyrie and Love back, he will never be a top three option on this team again. His defense can also be good when he is focused.

I don't really think the Cavs "need" to do anything to make another, more serious run at the title, except get healthy.

Here is our lineup next year assuming everyone is re-signed:

PG: Kyrie Irving / Matthew Dellavedova
SG: Iman Shumpert / JR Smith
SF: LeBron James / James Jones
PF: Kevin Love / Tristan Thompson
C: Timofey Mozgov / Anderson Varejao

There are a couple backup spots that could use upgrades. Maybe a scoring PG off the bench to help mask some of Delly's limitations and a legit backup SF for LeBron. But, I don't see any serious holes if that team is healthy.

That frontcourt is crazy versatile especially when you consider LeBron plays a lot at the 4 and the rebounding with Tristan, Varejao, Love and Mozgov is insane. Varejao and Tristan might be the two best offensive rebounders in the league not including Drummond.

Smith will probably leave, he is not picking up his players option.

[Pointguard]

My assessment.

Cleveland got two undersized power forwards demanding near max deals, and one unstable shooter. Sobeit, Kyrie and Love can shoot, but Love was streaky this year. Their comp (SA, Houston, Clippers, OKC, Chic, GS) most will have teams that are longer, more athletic, faster, quicker with no need to double the Cavs.

Locking in on TT and Love long term doesn't make sense. While both are solid players, I can't see both commanding a lot of money without much versatility from either one. If you go Love compliment him with a long athletic PF that is defensive minded. If they go TT a stretch forward would make sense. JR spooks me because I saw too much of him.

[RedBlackAttack]

My assessment.

Cleveland got two undersized power forwards demanding near max deals, and one unstable shooter. Sobeit, Kyrie and Love can shoot, but Love was streaky this year. Their comp (SA, Houston, Clippers, OKC, Chic, GS) most will have teams that are longer, more athletic, faster, quicker with no need to double the Cavs.

Locking in on TT and Love long term doesn't make sense. While both are solid players, I can't see both commanding a lot of money without much versatility from either one. If you go Love compliment him with a long athletic PF that is defensive minded. If they go TT a stretch forward would make sense. JR spooks me because I saw too much of him.
You are talking as if passing on contracts for Love and Tristan would mean we could go after two different high end players on the open market. That is not the case. Even if both Tristan and Love leave, we'd still be pretty much capped out. So, essentially you're saying we should let Love and Tristan walk so that Gilbert won't have to pay a luxury tax. We'd still have few options for improving the roster.

The other thing is that the max now is going to look like a bargain by 2017-18.

And both TT and Love are very versatile. Love is arguably the most versatile offensive big in the league. He can step out beyond the three-point line and stretch the floor. He can work from the high post or the low post. His passing is extremely good, which means he is excellent from the elbow. And then he is an elite rebounder to top it off. How is that not considered versatile?

Tristan is the same way except on the defensive end. He can play either the 4 or the 5. You can switch everything with him on the floor. He is maybe the best PF/C in the league at switching onto guards and staying in front of them. He can protect the rim when asked to and he is the best offensive rebounder in the league.

They're easily worth max or near max contracts for this particular Cavs team. Their actual market value is insignificant, because the Cavs can't work the market. They can either re-sign their own players or watch them walk with nothing to show for it.

[chips93]

if you go Love compliment him with a long athletic PF that is defensive minded. If they go TT a stretch forward would make sense. JR spooks me because I saw too much of him.

So the best complement to love, is a player like tristan (long, athletic, defensive), and the best complement to tristan is love (offensive, good shooter).

Why not just keep both. To minimise brons wear and tear, play him exclusively at SF, and play a three big rotation of love-mozgov-tristan, with andy getting like 10 mins per game.

[DMAVS41]

My assessment.

Cleveland got two undersized power forwards demanding near max deals, and one unstable shooter. Sobeit, Kyrie and Love can shoot, but Love was streaky this year. Their comp (SA, Houston, Clippers, OKC, Chic, GS) most will have teams that are longer, more athletic, faster, quicker with no need to double the Cavs.

Locking in on TT and Love long term doesn't make sense. While both are solid players, I can't see both commanding a lot of money without much versatility from either one. If you go Love compliment him with a long athletic PF that is defensive minded. If they go TT a stretch forward would make sense. JR spooks me because I saw too much of him.

Shocking. You don't understand how the cap and tax work.

As for your take on the players? They are both extremely versatile and compliment each other, Lebron, and Kyrie very well. Bringing those guys back gives the Cavs the best and most versatile lineup in the league.

[DMAVS41]

I agree, but I will say that the amount of wear LeBron sustained in these playoffs is worrisome. We all know he is a borderline cyborg, but to carry that much weight for the last two rounds combined with five straight seasons of playing basically the max number of games/minutes... at some point it has to take a toll. I'd give him a month-long vacation at some point this coming season.

Start the year on a good note as opposed to last year and then let him gear down for awhile. They should also closely monitor Kyrie's minutes. He played the 4th most minutes per game in the league (higher than LeBron's MPG) and he played in 75 of 82 games. With as much pounding as he takes going to the basket and bouncing/cutting around all those trees... too many minutes. He should be played the way the Warriors do with Curry, who played the 42nd ranked MPG in the league (the highest ranked Warrior).

The good news is that we have found an identity, so I seriously doubt we are going to start the season 19-20. Because of that rough start, we were chasing the 2nd seed all year and that meant playing our big guns more than they should have. I'm guessing things will go more smoothly next year.


Yea, that matters.

I'd limit him to a hard ceiling of 32 minutes per game and 65 games played. I'd give him two separate occasions of 10 days....early again and then after the all star break.

Cavs should win close to 60 anyway.

[SwishSquared]

Use the mini-MLE on Aaron Brooks and use the Haywood contract to trade for Jared Dudley (have LBJ convince him to opt-in). Gives the Bucks an additional asset to use should they choose to move up in draft, gives CLE ~$6M TPE, and gives the Cavs an in-prime vet who just shot well from deep and defended nicely this season (he should be a reliable role player backup for LBJ). I think it gives them a very deep roster, assuming Shump & JR stay (seems like they will). Delly should be cheap to retain imo for added depth.

Tax bill will be awful next summer, but Gilbert will pay up to field a winner.

Kyrie-Shump-LBJ-Love-Mozgov
Brooks-JR-Dudley-TT-Andy
Delly-Miller-Harris-rookie-veteran

[RedBlackAttack]

Use the mini-MLE on Aaron Brooks and use the Haywood contract to trade for Jared Dudley (have LBJ convince him to opt-in). Gives the Bucks an additional asset to use should they choose to move up in draft, gives CLE ~$6M TPE, and gives the Cavs an in-prime vet who just shot well from deep and defended nicely this season (he should be a reliable role player backup for LBJ). I think it gives them a very deep roster, assuming Shump & JR stay (seems like they will). Delly should be cheap to retain imo for added depth.

Tax bill will be awful next summer, but Gilbert will pay up to field a winner.

Kyrie-Shump-LBJ-Love-Mozgov
Brooks-JR-Dudley-TT-Andy
Delly-Miller-Harris-rookie-veteran
Yes please.

[Pointguard]

Shocking. You don't understand how the cap and tax work.
Could be worse, like not understanding when an all time great is playing great right in your face can calling horrible.

I don't know the Cavs situation at all and don't care that I do. But acting like signing them both to long term expensive contracts isn't bright at all.


As for your take on the players? They are both extremely versatile and compliment each other, Lebron, and Kyrie very well. Bringing those guys back gives the Cavs the best and most versatile lineup in the league.
Really, extremely versatile?

Neither is very creative.

Neither are long, both are undersized.

Neither are two way players.

Neither are athletic - Tristan is kind of.

Neither are as versatile as any of the Bulls top four front court players.

Neither is fast.

Neither is quick.

Neither are killers on the break.

Neither are very productive without plenty of minutes.

Neither are steady players.

Neither are going to block shots.

Neither can guard tall PF's

Neither can guard strong PF's

Neither can guard creative PF's

And that's them together. So I'm not sold on their versatility. Maybe you can help me out with some oversight.

Extremely versatile is Blake, Aldridge, Gasol, AD, Mirotic, Duncan.

Very Versatile is Greg Monroe, Paul Milsap, healthy David Lee, Dirk, IBaka.

Then you have Love. But extremely is greatly misused here. Especially on TT.

[DMAVS41]

PG. I said Lebron's offense was horribly inefficient overall since game 1 of the finals. Which is just pretty much a fact. His lack of range shooting and his inability to finish on the drive the way he used to showed here. I know you don't believe in efficiency, but shooting 47% TS over a 5 game stretch on the kind of usage Lebron had is going to kill you every time unless you are playing a terrible team or have the greatest defense of all time behind you. His play strictly on offense was very Rose-esque...no wonder you liked it so much.

He absolutely played a great series overall, but it wasn't because of his offense. His offense overall was not great.

What made his series great overall was that he could do what he did while doing everything for his team.

You seem confused on this front.


As for TT and Love. Yes, they are extremely versatile players. Like RBA said earlier, they just do it in different ways.

Forget TT as you clearly just haven't watched enough to know.

Lets talk about Love. He's not extremely versatile? He can have a huge impact on and off the ball. He creates nightmare matchup problems in a simple pick and roll. He can post up, can make tough passes, is one of the best rebounders in the game, and can drill shot after shot from distance open or contested.

What you don't get about the cap is that if they don't sign them...they can't really do anything else. They won't have the money to go out and sign other guys using the money they were going to pay those guys. That isn't how the cap works.

The only tool the Cavs would have to get better in your scenario is to make a trade with the Haywood contract...which, by the way, they can do regardless.

It actually matters that you don't know what you are talking about again here. Knowing how the rules work makes your comments above...once again, ignorant to reality.

But obviously you feel this way....you think they are better off going 7 deep without two all nba type players. So of course you think this team doesn't need 2 of it's 4 best players.:hammerhead:

[Meticode]

No, the Cavs are better when players accept their roles and play to the situation in front of them with a balance. Putting Love out there 100% of the time hurts you. Putting Thompson out there 100% of the time hurts you.

[RedBlackAttack]

But acting like signing them both to long term expensive contracts isn't bright at all.
Again, we seem to be at a point of contention. You don't seem to understand the situation. You'd honestly rather let either or both walk, despite the fact that it would do nothing for the franchise in terms of cap maneuverability? What's your end-game, then? Are you concerned about Gilbert having to pay the luxury tax? If so, why. If not, why wouldn't you re-sign them?

[DMAVS41]

Again, we seem to be at a point of contention. You don't seem to understand the situation. You'd honestly rather let either or both walk, despite the fact that it would do nothing for the franchise in terms of cap maneuverability? What's your end-game, then? Are you concerned about Gilbert having to pay the luxury tax? If so, why. If not, why wouldn't you re-sign them?

2 reasons:

1. He clearly doesn't understand the cap situation and how it works

2. Are you surprised? He thinks they are better without Kyrie and Love...why wouldn't he think they are better without Love and TT?

[Pointguard]

PG. I said Lebron's offense was horribly inefficient overall since game 1 of the finals. Which is just pretty much a fact. His lack of range shooting and his inability to finish on the drive the way he used to showed here. I know you don't believe in efficiency, but shooting 47% TS over a 5 game stretch on the kind of usage Lebron had is going to kill you every time unless you are playing a terrible team or have the greatest defense of all time behind you. His play strictly on offense was very Rose-esque...no wonder you liked it so much.

He absolutely played a great series overall, but it wasn't because of his offense. His offense overall was not great.

His aggression offensively overrides efficiency I told you of this scenario before the series even started. Cleveland was one shot away from being up 3-0 because of his aggression. You still don't understand that. That's a marvel of all time amazement, and you are stuck on efficiency so that it blinds you from common sense.

It was nearly 3-0. Its why I had such a problem with saying having Love and Irving as making them better would almost necessitate a sweep. GS was a young team and the best bet was to get them reeling and hope leadership doesn't step up. I said if Iggy stays in the front as leader and guide its over. And it happened. I said if Curry gets his confidence it over - btw, he said he got it when Cleveland slacked off at the end of the third game in the press conference yesterday.



What made his series great overall was that he could do what he did while doing everything for his team.

You seem confused on this front.
You said he was preventing his team from winning.
Your quote "Lebron's offense, outside of game 1, is killing the Cavs. Aggressive or not...it's been dreadful" His offense won game three and nearly game two as well. You can have a great game without efficiency. Facts.



As for TT and Love. Yes, they are extremely versatile players. Like RBA said earlier, they just do it in different ways.

Forget TT as you clearly just haven't watched enough to know.
TT is not a top tier or second tier versatile player so he can't be extremely versatile. If you think he's top tier its disgusting.


Lets talk about Love. He's not extremely versatile? He can have a huge impact on and off the ball. He creates nightmare matchup problems in a simple pick and roll. He can post up, can make tough passes, is one of the best rebounders in the game, and can drill shot after shot from distance open or contested.
Extremely versatile is KG. That's the extreme of versatility for the position. Love isn't remotely close to Duncan or AD. Its no longer extreme by the time you get to Blake, Mirotic and Gasol who are obviously a level higher than Love. Maybe you don't know what extreme is.



What you don't get about the cap is that if they don't sign them...they can't really do anything else. They won't have the money to go out and sign other guys using the money they were going to pay those guys. That isn't how the cap works.

The only tool the Cavs would have to get better in your scenario is to make a trade with the Haywood contract...which, by the way, they can do regardless.

It actually matters that you don't know what you are talking about again here. Knowing how the rules work makes your comments above...once again, ignorant to reality.
Why do you think agents are as dumb as you???

Love is going to have a no trade clause in his contract. Did you think of that reality. Which is going to make Tristan demand more money from Cleveland as its the only way to know they are invested in him. The Tristan contract almost has to be a bad contract if he stays in Cleveland.

[Pointguard]

Again, we seem to be at a point of contention. You don't seem to understand the situation. You'd honestly rather let either or both walk, despite the fact that it would do nothing for the franchise in terms of cap maneuverability? What's your end-game, then? Are you concerned about Gilbert having to pay the luxury tax? If so, why. If not, why wouldn't you re-sign them?
Love is going to demand a no trade deal max while he looks very different in the East. Tristan is going to demand a lot as its the only way to feel secure in that situation. I see what you are saying, more good bodies. But its locking in long term at a position that is undersized, slower sobeit, talented. The West is tall. Its not as clear as you guys are making it. I doubt Dan will give TT that much. But I see what you are saying.

[DMAVS41]

Aggression doesn't over-ride efficiency. It's not this all or nothing deal...you can do both.

Lebron could have simply scored better and it would have helped his team tremendously. Despite his great play, Lebron's inability to make the Warriors pay for singling him was a huge part of this series. Again, whether you want to admit that or understand that is on you.

You simply aren't going to win playing a great team shooting as often and as poorly as Lebron.

You can keep saying aggression is the only thing that matters, but you'll continue just being wrong. It's agenda driven because your favorite player is one of the least efficient volume scorers in NBA history...so of course you think that doesn't matter.


TT is extremely versatile on defense. He is an excellent pick and roll player. He gives them a legit chance to switch pick and roll and have him defend the ball. He didn't have great results with Curry, but he actually played good defense...it's just that Curry is amazing. But he's one of the best p/r defenders in the league on and off the switch that. You combine that with his rebounding on both ends...the fact that he can play both the 4 and 5...and yes...that is extremely versatile. Your argument here is just a game of semantics as you have nothing of substance to say.


Please stop talking about the contract situations and the cap. You still don't get it. The TT contract just "can't" be a bad one in reality. It doesn't prevent them from doing anything as it's either pay the tax or let him go. There is no alternative of let him go and sign someone else. Please try to actually learn something for a change. You can't let him go...and sign someone else. They won't have the cap space to sign a free agent of his caliber.

Unless you work for Dan Gilbert or care how much money he has...there is absolutely no reason to think paying TT a near max right now before we see a huge cap increase is a bad thing. He's one of their 5 best players and he compliments everything they do very well.

Paying him is absolutely the smart option if Gilbert is willing to pay the tax (which all signs point to him doing)...

Do you realize there is a huge cap increase coming? Do you realize how stuck the Cavs would be if they don't keep Love and TT and how they'll basically have no ability to improve the team in any real way?

Just please do some learning for a change. One last time...they can't spend the money they would spend on TT or Love on other players. It doesn't work like that. They absolutely need to do everything they can to bring those guys back.

[SwishSquared]

Love is going to have a no trade clause in his contract. Did you think of that reality. Which is going to make Tristan demand more money from Cleveland as its the only way to know they are invested in him. The Tristan contract almost has to be a bad contract if he stays in Cleveland.Love doesn't have the requisite years of service with the Cavs to even get a no-trade clause, so that's off the table this summer. Also, TT's negotiations likely have little to do with Love's negotiations. Cavs want both of them back, so one negotiation shouldn't, and likely won't, affect the other.

Love has the chance to opt-in, opt-out to sign a short deal, or sign a five year max. Cavs would favor the third option, as it's the cheapest per-year long-term deal they can give him

TT wants max, but potentially will settle for something like $15M/year (rumor floated he would entertain just below max). He's not a max guy on another team, but his fit on the Cavs and their cap sheet going forward necessitates paying him. TT is a great locker room guy, the Cavs' most versatile defensive PF/C, and can/has/will play with any of Love/Mozgov/Andy. His offensive game isn't diverse or broad, but he knows his role and plays it well. He's not the biggest or longest defensive big, but he's grown up a TON this past season. RBA has been right about him all along, whereas I had my doubts he could log so many mins @ C effectively.

Extremely versatile is KG. That's the extreme of versatility for the position. Love isn't remotely close to Duncan or AD. Its no longer extreme by the time you get to Blake, Mirotic and Gasol who are obviously a level higher than Love. Maybe you don't know what extreme is.No doubt, KG/Duncan/AD bring great versatility, but Love currently is probably the most versatile PF, if not big man, in the entire league on offense. Those guys have shown incredible defensive abilities and Love has his defensive shortcomings, but that's why Mozgov and TT have been and should be on the team going forward. Love's extremely versatile on offense though. He's a major part of why the Kyrie/JR/LBJ/Love/Mozgov lineup had the highest 5-man net rating in the entire league and why the Cavs played so well after the trades/LBJ rest this season.

[Pointguard]

Aggression doesn't over-ride efficiency. It's not this all or nothing deal...you can do both.

Lebron could have simply scored better and it would have helped his team tremendously. Despite his great play, Lebron's inability to make the Warriors pay for singling him was a huge part of this series. Again, whether you want to admit that or understand that is on you.

You simply aren't going to win playing a great team shooting as often and as poorly as Lebron.

You can keep saying aggression is the only thing that matters, but you'll continue just being wrong. It's agenda driven because your favorite player is one of the least efficient volume scorers in NBA history...so of course you think that doesn't matter.


TT is extremely versatile on defense. He is an excellent pick and roll player. He gives them a legit chance to switch pick and roll and have him defend the ball. He didn't have great results with Curry, but he actually played good defense...it's just that Curry is amazing. But he's one of the best p/r defenders in the league on and off the switch that. You combine that with his rebounding on both ends...the fact that he can play both the 4 and 5...and yes...that is extremely versatile. Your argument here is just a game of semantics as you have nothing of substance to say.


Please stop talking about the contract situations and the cap. You still don't get it. The TT contract just "can't" be a bad one in reality. It doesn't prevent them from doing anything as it's either pay the tax or let him go. There is no alternative of let him go and sign someone else. Please try to actually learn something for a change. You can't let him go...and sign someone else. They won't have the cap space to sign a free agent of his caliber.

Unless you work for Dan Gilbert or care how much money he has...there is absolutely no reason to think paying TT a near max right now before we see a huge cap increase is a bad thing. He's one of their 5 best players and he compliments everything they do very well.

Paying him is absolutely the smart option if Gilbert is willing to pay the tax (which all signs point to him doing)...

Do you realize there is a huge cap increase coming? Do you realize how stuck the Cavs would be if they don't keep Love and TT and how they'll basically have no ability to improve the team in any real way?

Just please do some learning for a change. One last time...they can't spend the money they would spend on TT or Love on other players. It doesn't work like that. They absolutely need to do everything they can to bring those guys back.
As a businessman, it's first nature to us to not take on long term bad contracts. TT is their third best PF. Your insurance policy is suppose to save you money, not cheapen the value of your stars.

Nice essay tho.

[Angel Face]

Better offensively but way worse defensively. Kyrie / Love doesn't play defense and Lebron forgot how to play defense.

[DMAVS41]

As a businessman, it's first nature to us to not take on long term bad contracts. TT is their third best PF. Your insurance policy is suppose to save you money, not cheapen the value of your stars.

Nice essay tho.

It's not a bad contract for a variety of reasons you still fail to grasp.

[RedBlackAttack]

It's not a bad contract for a variety of reasons you still fail to grasp.
There comes a point where it seems like people just argue for the sake of arguing.


Love is going to demand a no trade deal max while he looks very different in the East. Tristan is going to demand a lot as its the only way to feel secure in that situation. I see what you are saying, more good bodies. But its locking in long term at a position that is undersized, slower sobeit, talented. The West is tall. Its not as clear as you guys are making it. I doubt Dan will give TT that much. But I see what you are saying.

1. A no-trade clause is not even possible. You can't just "demand" a no-trade clause because it sounds like it might be a good idea. You have to have been in the league for at least eight years and been with the team who is signing you for at least four years. Love doesn't currently qualify on either of those prerequisites.

2. I'm not sure in what world either Kevin Love or Tristan Thompson are undersized PFs. Love is 6-foot-10 and Tristan is big, long, strong and athletic enough that he plays large portions of games at center. A frontcourt rotation of Love (6-10), TT (6-8), Mozgov (7-1), Varejao (6-11), and LBJ (6-8) would be one of the biggest in the league.

3. There's no world in which re-signing TT and Love to longterm deals is a bad idea for the Cavs, regardless of how much it costs them. They're completely handcuffed in free agency for the foreseeable future regardless of whether they let them walk or sign them. And, to just let a PF combination like that walk out there do just "because"... that is called not seeing the forest for the trees.

[Pointguard]

Love doesn't have the requisite years of service with the Cavs to even get a no-trade clause, so that's off the table this summer.
There is no years requisite of team tenure to get a no trade clause. KG and Paul Pierce just did it with the Nets without any tenure on the team at all. I know you can't be on your first contract... .
[Quote]
Also, TT's negotiations likely have little to do with Love's negotiations. Cavs want both of them back, so one negotiation shouldn't, and likely won't, affect the other.
As an agent you use whatever you can as leverage. It means a ton to young players career if he is starting or not when a contract runs into his prime.

ok I just read up on it. He's restricted this year. So he's out to prove himself any way this year. Its not a do or die with TT. I think playing for a contract puts major urgency in the up and coming year if he wants a starters contract.
If they win it all then I can see people leaving for money next year. You need a hungry player in the mix.



TT wants max, but potentially will settle for something like $15M/year (rumor floated he would entertain just below max). He's not a max guy on another team, but his fit on the Cavs and their cap sheet going forward necessitates paying him. TT is a great locker room guy, the Cavs' most versatile defensive PF/C, and can/has/will play with any of Love/Mozgov/Andy. His offensive game isn't diverse or broad, but he knows his role and plays it well. He's not the biggest or longest defensive big, but he's grown up a TON this past season. RBA has been right about him all along, whereas I had my doubts he could log so many mins @ C effectively.
Thanks for the info. I think Love will do one more year for sure as he's too close to a ring. I would cater to Love but I can see him having reservations which could put long term planning in a bind.

I say offer TT 12 per and dont sweat it.



No doubt, KG/Duncan/AD bring great versatility, but Love currently is probably the most versatile PF, if not big man, in the entire league on offense. Those guys have shown incredible defensive abilities and Love has his defensive shortcomings, but that's why Mozgov and TT have been and should be on the team going forward. Love's extremely versatile on offense though. He's a major part of why the Kyrie/JR/LBJ/Love/Mozgov lineup had the highest 5-man net rating in the entire league and why the Cavs played so well after the trades/LBJ rest this season.
Offensively, Paul Gasol Mirotic and Blake are more versatile right now to me.

[Pointguard]

There comes a point where it seems like people just argue for the sake of arguing.

I brought up two business principles, thats only an argument to those who are naturally contentious or who write 200 word responses. I think you just insulted Dmav's.


1. A no-trade clause is not even possible. You can't just "demand" a no-trade clause because it sounds like it might be a good idea. You have to have been in the league for at least eight years and been with the team who is signing you for at least four years. Love doesn't currently qualify on either of those prerequisites. That was his best chance of staying long term. Hes already sacrificing too much. No???


2. I'm not sure in what world either Kevin Love or Tristan Thompson are undersized PFs. Love is 6-foot-10 and Tristan is big, long, strong and athletic enough that he plays large portions of games at center. A frontcourt rotation of Love (6-10), TT (6-8), Mozgov (7-1), Varejao (6-11), and LBJ (6-8) would be one of the biggest in the league.
Love nor Tristan are long. They are wise in playing below the rim.

3. There's no world in which re-signing TT and Love to longterm deals is a bad idea for the Cavs, regardless of how much it costs them.
Welcome to the business world. Where paying one position possibly 35 million for two years after taxes and such, for a position that will get devoured by AD. Imagine if Durant goes to the Big Easy. Or if AD goes to any contender. Those guys are just ripe for him. TT is in Cleveland for the year. No need to worry hard on that.

[chips93]

tristan's wingspan is 7'1, thats pretty long for a PF

[RedBlackAttack]

tristan's wingspan is 7'1, thats pretty long for a PF
Beat me to it. Also, PG continues to fail at recognizing our cap situation and the limited options available to improve the team other than re-signing who we already have under contract.

I think I'm done here.

[Pointguard]

Beat me to it. Also, PG continues to fail at recognizing our cap situation and the limited options available to improve the team other than re-signing who we already have under contract.

I think I'm done here.
Kenieth Faried is 6'6 inch and practically has the same standing reach which is the more important factor in length. I never hear him called long and he is obviously a superior leaper. Tristan Thompson is listed at 6.7.5. Draymond Green is an inch shorter, blocks shots better, and has a 7/1 wing span also. I never hear any of these guys being called long. Not one of them is 6'8 inches tall. Long is Gasol, Aldridge, AD, Duncan, Garnett, Mirotic.

Now guys who are 6'8 and rarely block shots (Wade has averaged more) are now long. Its getting crazy. I understand you have to sign him. But that doesn't make it a good signing.

[DMAVS41]

Kenieth Faried is 6'6 inch and practically has the same standing reach which is the more important factor in length. I never hear him called long and he is obviously a superior leaper. Tristan Thompson is listed at 6.7.5. Draymond Green is an inch shorter, blocks shots better, and has a 7/1 wing span also. I never hear any of these guys being called long. Not one of them is 6'8 inches tall. Long is Gasol, Aldridge, AD, Duncan, Garnett, Mirotic.

Now guys who are 6'8 and rarely block shots (Wade has averaged more) are now long. Its getting crazy. I understand you have to sign him. But that doesn't make it a good signing.


To the bold.

So you think the Cavs are better off without TT and a minimum player in his place? Because that is basically the option. Either sign TT or let him walk...and they'll have no cap space to sign anyone other than essentially a vet min guy.

You really think that is the better option than signing a rebounding machine that fits in very well with this team...and the only downside is paying the tax?

Don't go off on a tangent about unrelated matters.

Tell me why the Cavs are better off without TT than with him...knowing they can't replace him with anything other than a vet min essentially.

Now, if you are proposing they do some trade or should have done some trade, that is different. In fact, I was in favor of trading him and Waiters and the valuable Haywood contract all year. I was right about Waiters, but I was dead wrong about TT it seems. He's exactly what this team needs around Lebron, Love, and Kyrie....let alone he fits in well with Moz and Andy.

[Da_Realist]

I didn't read through the entire thread so I don't know how this topic changed to contracts talks but to answer the OP's question...NO. Kyrie brought a dimension that is hard to gameplan for. Lebron's the best but Kyrie is their most dynamic player. Unpredictable and even unstoppable if he's having a good night. He would have filled in the gaps. Not only was he another body that would have given Cleveland good minutes but he would have found ways to score when Lebron couldn't get it going. He would have made it easy for everyone else offensively and would have done an adequate job defensively. AND he changed the pace. Lebron slowed it down...Kyrie could speed things up when it suited the Cavs. He would have made their offense more unpredictable, more efficient and more dependable (no long gaps with no scoring)

Cavs in 5 or 6 if Kyrie played the whole series. I like his game.

[Pointguard]

[/B]

To the bold.

So you think the Cavs are better off without TT and a minimum player in his place? Because that is basically the option. Either sign TT or let him walk...and they'll have no cap space to sign anyone other than essentially a vet min guy.

You really think that is the better option than signing a rebounding machine that fits in very well with this team...and the only downside is paying the tax?

Tell me why the Cavs are better off without TT than with him...knowing they can't replace him with anything other than a vet min essentially.

Now, if you are proposing they do some trade or should have done some trade, that is different. In fact, I was in favor of trading him and Waiters and the valuable Haywood contract all year. I was right about Waiters, but I was dead wrong about TT it seems. He's exactly what this team needs around Lebron, Love, and Kyrie....let alone he fits in well with Moz and Andy.
I did say I see why it has to be done... It guarantees another solid player. But some other things happen in the process. Especially if TT demands a lot the ramifications can be pretty bad.

Shumpert, Mozgov and JR see how money is thrown around and will want some more. Mozgov is in his prime and close to equal the player on a per minute basis. And his height is needed.

Love is most likely to only opt in and see how the other big contract at his position works itself out. I don't see the advantage Love has by signing long term right now. So it could possibly cost Cleveland Love and Mozgov.

Isn't this primarily a one/two year problem??? because of the balloon jump in 2016 cap??? Why make it a five year problem with Lebron's great ability to attract free agents? 4 big contracts is a serious lock in without a "long" player in that 4.

I could be wrong here, but that jumps out at me.

[jayfan]

A healthy Kyrie is the best shooter & scorer the Cavs have. How can they be better without him?



.